NY135: Sexy Sedilla Semi-Open - Town Wins

[Chair]

/confirm

I know you, Slaxx. Sort of.

[Chair]

Vote: The Mask

Cause obviously scum cover their faces. Also first on the list!

[Chair]

Ythan, kanye and Îdher are town. Hiraki and parabollocks are scum.

Unvote, vote: parabollocks

-implosion

[Chair]

Hey Îdher, why no vote?

-implosion

[Chair]

Code: Select all

[b]player[/b]
or
[vote]player[/vote]

-implosion

[Chair]

Misder hasn't been online today. I'm waiting to go over the game with him.

-implosion

[Chair]

So we've talked.

Dramonic- we agreed that he's null for now, but he goes V/LA before actually posting anything significant
Ethos- Conflicted views (Misder- I read him as scummy- its questionable, but I feel hes defensive) (implosion- unsure, but gut reaction is townsided)
Hiraki- town read
Idher- still town read
Kanye- Conflicted between the heads (Misder- I read as town-sided) (implosion- leaning towards scum)
Knight- town read
Kunk- needs to post more, can't get a read off of what he's posted
Oversoul- town read
Parabollocks- scum read
Quilford- town read
Spyrex- meh. (Misder- I can't read him and I put him as null) (implosion- posts feels off, gut reaction is scum)
Swag- (Misder- I have to decide whether I view his posts as noobtown or noobscum, and I'm leaning noobscum) (implosion- no real reads yet)
T-bone- (Misder- I say hes town) (implosion- no real reads yet)
The Mask- needs to post more, can't get a read off of what he's posted
Tripod- (Misder- I say hes scummy) (implosion- no real reads yet)
Ythan- town read

Also- implosion wants me to ask you Spyrex- why did you add "Is this already at L-1?" to the end of your 162? That line bothers him.

Unvote

Since Para is getting a replacement, we feel like replacement deserves a chance.

-Misder

[Chair]

-Spyrex is also weird

Something about Syprex's play has been bugging me. The small quote at the end of 162, for example. Something just feels really off about it to me, like it shouldn't be there. I just don't feel like it makes sense to say it ("Is this already at L-1?"). I feel... idk. It kind of feels like a really backhanded way to mention that the wagon reached l-1. Or his post 180:

Selective absolutes and I don't understand it.

I dont even know if a Bookie would be worth this defense. Definitely not the other scum roles.

First of all, his attack on Ethos largely looks like he's just piggybacking off of Ythan (who is possibly my strongest townread, and who Misder also reads as town). And second of all, the second sentence has a similar gut feeling like something's off to 162. It kind of feels like the sentence assumes that Ethos and para are scumbuddies (implying that it's a scum on scum defense) and then saying that it makes no sense. It just doesn't feel right. Or his TEAM MURDER DEATH SQUAD list:

Hiraki
KKB
KoC
T-Bone
SpyreX
Ythan

Ythan, I understand why he's on there. Spyrex, it makes sense to put oneself on there. Hiraki, I also understand. But knight, t-bone and kanye? I can understand townreads on these people - but it seems like spyrex has ridiculously strong townreads on them for this point in the game. Especially t-bone and kanye. I also just kind of don't like the proposition of a 6-person voting block when: A, there are plenty of people that still have barely posted; B, it's only a 17-person game and 6 people is 2/3 of a lynch wagon; and C, there's no town reason to have such damn strong town reads on these people. Another notable point:

SpyreX, just because parabollocks called you a faggot doesn't make him scum.

QFT, and more than that, spyrex should know this. His reaction doesn't seem genuine.

So yeah. That is, as much as i can, my explanation of my spyrex scumread. I'm also notably starting to think both ethos and para (now yos) are town.

Guessing most of the scum is in the not posting much section this game.

This seems like an odd thing to say in your third post.

-implosion

[Chair]

Did you miss his answer or was it not sufficient for you?

Frankly, no answer really could be sufficient since my feeling about the statement is largely just a gut feeling that it doesn't belong, which I then tried to explain. I didn't miss the answer. It doesn't change my feelings about the statement.

They don't all have to be "OBVTOWN TO THE END OF THE EARTH" reads to make it there ya' know.

SpyreX begs to disagree.

Its been a good long time since I've felt this strong about town town up ins. I'd be shocked and awed if this list was all that was left and there was a game still goin on.

I suspect that spyrex would have more than 6 townreads in a game of 17 players. Based on this statement, I can infer that his standard of town for being in his voting block is very high.

Chair. A hydra who's paying attention with 8 posts at this stage of the game is ridiculous. Further, he's the one who's got them itchy feet about my MURDER DEATH SQUAD and a scum flip there would be awesome because that would be even more evidence (not that I need it) of me being right about my peeps.

First of all: 8 posts isn't ridiculous when, first of all, I'd been largely withholding posting early on until I could talk with Misder, which didn't happen until last night, and second of all, you seem to be implicitly comparing this hydra to the other hydras and Îdher's 30 posts generally consist of 1-3 lines. Second, you say that this slot flipping scum would have an effect on your town reads - does this mean that you have a scumread on us? If so, why not just outright say that you think we're scum? if not, why speculate about us flipping scum? Third of all, "itchy feet" is a strange way to describe my feelings about the voting block proposition - why don't you respond to the criticisms that I've made of it (namely, insufficiently justified town reads along with it being very early to create a very large voting block when many people haven't contributed) instead of essentially implicitly attacking me for attacking the voting block?

-implosion

[Chair]

Misder is out of town until Tuesday.

In response to Spyrex 420:

You talking about generic hatred towards hydras (which is apparently being instigated by this account's lack of posting) seems odd when Ethos has been one of the biggest posters and Îdher had 30 or so shorter posts.

Also, a clarification: would us moving up your scumlist if Yos/Ethos were both to be declared town be due to them being town, or just because we're your next biggest scumread?

As for the voting block, me only being averse to the town reads that I disagree with is to an extent a fair point. I dislike your calling my reaction to the voting block "itchy feet," and even more than that "tentative prodding." I'm not being tentative at all; I explained in detail what's wrong with the block.

I'll look at other stuff tomorrow.

-implosion

[Chair]

I'm waiting to discuss some stuff with Misder at this point. He doesn't agree with me on spyrex, hence the lack of a vote on spyrex.

The thing is you weren't averse to only town reads you disagreed with. See your ISO #6 compared to where you called out the voting block in your subsequent ISO #7. Clearly states town read on KoC. Yet you mention having an issue with KoC in the voting block. Also your wording seems more out to kill the whole block on the basis of a few, rather than suggesting to limit it to lesser players.

Hence me saying that it was a good point "to an extent." The reason that I had an issue with KoC on a voting block was the apparent strength of spyrex's read on him. The people that I took no issue with were people for whom i can understand having a ridiculously strong townread.

-implosion

[Chair]

I'm basically waiting to discuss a bunch of things with misder once he gets back. I believe the mason claim.

-implosion

[Chair]

I’m back from out of town. Honestly though, I haven’t read through the thread carefully yet.

Implosion however has provided a list for me to post:
Town reads: dram, ethos, hiraki, oversoul, t-bone, yos2, ythan, îdher, knight

He also comments that this game is a game where he’s better at finding strong town reads than scum reads.
And that Spyrex lynch is not necessary today.


We do agree with Ethos that UT has been even scummier. I also want to note how he’s been on both the Para/Yos wagon and the Ethos wagon, seemingly always jumping on a bandwagon.

Vote Untrod Tripod

We are okay with a Quilford/Emp lynch, although honestly, neither of us get a strong scum read from them.

-Misder

[Chair]

I don't know if that list is in order at all actually cause implosion has a huge town read on ythan. It's more of a, everyone on that list is town I'm pretty sure, but I'll get back to you on that.

Spyrex, let's just say that the possibility of one specific future mistep makes you null.

-Misder

[Chair]

I told myself I would look through this game today. I'm going to do so now.

Also, mastin replacing in makes me sad, because even though deadline is soon we're probably gonna have about 10 more pages before the day is over.

-implosion

[Chair]

First of all, as Misder said, I have as town reads: dram, ethos and T-bone (masons), hiraki, oversoul, (at this point, both just have generally townish vibes), yos2 (i eventually began thinking that the entire para/ethos/ythan thing was TvT, yos looks like town, I never really had a scum read on ethos either), mastin (even with ythan's role fishing, I still feel like his play was very townish - it felt very much like what I know of town-ythan from the open game i modded), îdher (probably one of the weakest townreads, but the lack of vote for several pages looked like it was an attempt to attract attention, which would make it more likely town than scum, and nothing's been done that would make me think scum really), knight (essentially gut).

Not to imitate mastin, but this leaves for the most likely scum as far as i can tell: kanye, untrod, spyrex, empking, kunkstar, saporo, mrzepher.

Looking at kanye's ISO, he looks scummy to me. Posts 97-98 look manufactured. The attack on Ethos in 318 just feels bad... like a lame excuse to jump on a wagon. The reasons for attacking Ethos are: 1) sheeping quil's reasoning that Ythan/Ethos aren't both town. This is bad reasoning in the first place... there's no intrinsic reason that any given conflict, even if extended like this, can't be town on town. 2) Backpedaling on the reason that Ethos wasn't posting. So what... this is such a minor point that it's ridiculous to attack him for it. 3) Using meta. There's no reason to think that using meta = scum.

Basically, his voting ethos just looks really bad, wagoning while giving really bad reasons for it. Ethos also brought up some of this, and kanye's 347 responding to ethos's arguments is also pretty weak. None of his responses feel like they actually address the arguments Ethos was making. They feel like kanye is just repeating the arguments that he made originally. For example: when Ethos makes a point that kanye sounds disingenuous and that he shouldn't be asking ethos to stop making bad arguments if he thinks ethos is scum, kanye doesn't actually respond to either of these points and just continues to say what he was saying before: "i'm going to keep calling you out for using meta," essentially. He isn't answering the questions, he's just repeating rhetoric.

Untrod, I'm really not sure about. He's the kind of person whose posts give a strong null vibe; i find it difficult to discern information about his alignment from his posts. As Misder brought up, his voting pattern hasn't been particularly good, so I'd agree to put him in the scum category, but probably null-leaning-scum. I'm kind of sheeping Ethos and even Misder on this, but I just can't freakin read him.

Spyrex, I've explained why I see him as likely scum. Time will likely tell his alignment with more certainty. I have him as fairly likely scum for now, but He's likely to become a stronger read as time goes on, based on the way that he plays. Specifically, he's been in the group that's been tunneling/attacking ethos/para for most of the day; seeing what he does after that will be informative.

Empking is empking. He looks kind of townish, but he's like untrod except taken to three new levels. Empking is, in a way, null by definition. His posts feel somewhat genuine, so I'm inclined to lean slightly town. Quilford, I had mixed reads on. Idher had a good point about... something, I don't remember what and don't feel like looking, but Misder and I also had an early town read on him iirc. Also,

Chair: Actually, why were the masons split up?

What?

kunkstar: i kind of like his response to my question in 418. It feels genuine. kunk's posts look overall legitimate, and I don't really see anything else that makes me feel one way or the other strongly. I'd put kunk as null-town.

saporomask: I get nothing from the mask. as for saporo: 483 sounds very similarly to how I felt about Ethos before the mason claim. That doesn't really get townpoints or scumpoints, though. It could (obviously and assuming ethostown) be either a townie reading the situation correctly or scum trying to gain credit for defending a townie who's under pressure. The post itself doesn't make me feel either of these over the other to any relevant extent. Nothing of saporo's really sticks out to me... I think she's overall null for now. I just don't get any strong vibes - not in the same way as untrod or emp (as in, it isn't that what she's saying feels inherently difficult to glean alignment info from) it's just that I'm not really getting anything out of it.

zepher (but really swag): scum lean, but not enough posts to really be that strong. Post 151 just does not make sense. post 111's "sorry for being a noob" feels just a bit contrived. Excitement for the game starting is null, as a newbie could be excited to be either alignment.

So My main scumreads would be kanye, untrod, zepher (but he hasn't posted yet so we'll see), and spyrex. I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him. Empking wagon going through wouldn't be too bad. Yos wagon going through would be bad. I'll move our vote to emp if necessary for a deadline lynch.

Also,

Deadline is in slightly under two days. There's a countdown for it at the top of page two, for those that want/need it.

[Chair]

Above (and this) are implosion, if not obvious.

[Chair]

What?

In your town list you put two masons together but then added T-Bone later. Why?

I think I forgot that he was one of the masons at first when I was listing my town reads to misder.

-implosion

[Chair]

Agreed with ethos. I'd like a kanye shot.

However,

announce who you are shooting today

. With this setup, we don't want to make the mistake of shooting someone who could potentially be confirmed town (innocent children and treestumps specifically would be awful to vig). Announce it soon, too, since deadline is in barely over a day.

-implosion

[Chair]

One last push before I give up and have to swing for a deadline:

I think I forgot that he was one of the masons at first when I was listing my town reads to misder.

-implosion

This needs to be explained asap because it suuure looks like you went "Dramonic is town" but forgot T-Bone without their mason claims being a factor.

Which is absolute teaparty.

Sort of. I don't really remember this well, but i think I had t-bone as kind of scummy, so when i was listing my town reads to misder i forgot to list him as one of the masons. Spyrex, what are you implying with "absolute teaparty?" If you're implying that it's scummy, then how is me not putting the masons together on a list more likely to come from scum than it is to come from town? If not, then what the fuck does "absolute teaparty" mean? Why would it be strange or scummy to, as you said, forget to list t-bone as town without remembering him being a mason?

-implosion

[Chair]

When I saw one kill, my first thought actually wasn't that empking would be bookied - it was the possibility that Empking was scum lolgambiting as a bookie (or with a bookie on his team) in an attempt to get someone else lynched to essentially clear himself by using the bookie kill to look like a vig. I'm probably just insane, but it's technically possible. Since there is a bookie possibility, we need to be somewhat careful with who we lynch today, and well the rest of the game. Still, lynching bookied scum > lynching non-bookied town. As for Empking being bookied if he's scum, I say we just give him another day. We could arbitrarily decide a day to lynch empking if he never successfully vigs. I'm willing to believe that Empking could have forgotten to send in an action, considering I've seen him do much worse as town...

The Ethos kill doesn't surprise me. I was frankly expecting them to die.

youre joking right? you honestly believe that empking just happened to "forget" his kill especially with his town confirmation depending on it? thats impossible. there are two possibilities: empking is town (not a vig) pulling some sort of gambit, or hes scum who thought his lynch was imminent and decided to guarantee his lynch the next day by fakeclaiming something he knew would get him lynched. further, it doesn't make any sense to me that scum would not have killed him last night if his claim had any chance of being true due to fear that he may have been fibbing about how many shots he had.

This is a false dichotomy. While I agree that Empking (if town) forgetting his kill is horrible, I was in a game where Empking claimed mason... as doctor... to attract the nightkill... because he thought he was a townie. He was eventually lynched. If he's forgotten his damn role before, I find it feasible that he would forget to submit a night action. Horrible if true, but feasible. As for scum not killing him, if he had confirmed himself, he would have became the same level of town-confirmedness as Ethos/T-bone/dram would eventually be - so the scum might as well have killed whichever of those four they thought was the biggest threat.

As for the point about ending the night early, it may bear some weight, but assuming that night ending early = no outstanding actions is in essence an attempt to outguess the mod. He said that the reason would be that he wasn't going to be here, so there's no reason that he wouldn't assume action not received yet = no action.

-implosion

[Chair]

Chair: getting defensive at spyrex being mad at hydras due to ethos, preemptively getting defensive about others flipping town implicating him, inconsistencies and what i feel to be fake attempts at scumhunting designed not to distract from other wagons.

#487 claiming dissent between the heads is an excellent way to call someone scum and not follow it up with a vote or more detailed argument.

#695 "SpyreX lynch is not necessary today." what does that mean. especially since in #708 you say that he is only null.

#754 his vote is on untrod tripod but he reads him as "null-leaning-scum." also in that same post he says empking is likely to be scum but then claims that empking is leaning town? he then says he would not be against the empking lynch. all in all, this post feels to me like he is just trying to put some reads out to cover himself and he is not actually interested in pushing any case. he wants to appear like he is scum hunting without having to commit to anything. i don't like it at all.

I was responding to this post as the game was locked.

First paragraph: I don't feel like I was being overdefensive about the hydra point - I was just responding to it. The "others flipping town implicating me" thing was me asking spyrex to clarify something - I wanted to know if he meant that we were just his third strongest scumread, or if there was a specific reason that ethos/para flipping town would cause him to have a scumread on us (i.e. a connection). As for "fake attempts at scumhunting," you calling them fake doesn't make them fake. You haven't explained how anything that we've said looks like "fake scumhunting" to you - and unless you do, your argument is invalid.

@487: how have I not detailed my argument on Spyrex? I explained it in-depth in 415... did you not read that post? did you just ignore it? As for not voting on the suspicion, why if I was scum would I even need to give myself an excuse to not vote spyrex? Why couldn't I, as scum, just vote him and say Misder agreed with me? Why is it a scum behavior to use that to justify not voting Spyrex when as scum I could just as easily have voted him?
@695: essentially, when I was saying that, it was because of Spyrex's playstyle. The way that Spyrex is playing, I feel, will make it easier to read him as the game goes on. His attempt to develop a voting block, for example, will mean more after more people in that voting block have flipped. I also want to see how his reads develop as the game goes on.
@754: Untrod was the scumread that Misder and I had the most agreement about. The list of "more likely scum" was just listing people that weren't in my town list, which is why I went through all of them to get better individual reads. As for "not committing to anything" - this is just a ridiculous accusation.

So My main scumreads would be kanye, untrod, zepher (but he hasn't posted yet so we'll see), and spyrex. I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him.

I "commit" to scumreads in this line. Again, did you miss this line or ignore it? Also, why should town commit to reads in the first place? The game is constantly shifting with new information every day - why should anyone but scum commit completely to any particular read? Why is there more scum motivation to "not commit" to reads than there is town motivation?

[Chair]

This thread needs more everyone. Also kunk and saporovirus prods.

-implosion

[Chair]

Yos: why are you assuming multiple scum factions (if that's what you're assuming)? Could you clarify 921?
kanye: why are you assuming that yos slipped? I just reread what he said and that is kind of funny, but it looks more like a careless mistake than necessarily a scumslip.

Agreed with 920 though. Whoever did that (assuming it was a vig) that was a pretty bad shot. At the very least, we have a clear somewhere. I'm assuming that three kills are from a vig shot on hiraki and a bookie double-shot on the masons.

-implosion

[Chair]

i dont think thats the kind of careless mistake you are implying he made chair

I saw the we, but it could just as easily be be a mafia who forgot to take it out as it could be a townie who carelessly put it in, especially since mafia tend to be more careful when they post, they'd frankly be more likely to see it and take it out. I agree that him saying it's lylo is strange, and I don't see any reason that it would be lylo with 11 people alive.

-implosion

[Chair]

VOTE: kanye
I've explained why he's scum. 754 had my primary case (so far) on him. There was also more in 869 and 873. He never responded to any of these. I may coalesce a case in one post on him at some point soon. He's the best lynch for today.

At this point, Misder and I agree on kanye and spyrex as scum. Mastin's post with one of {us, spyrex} and one of {kanye, yos} was good, and I agree with it.

[Chair]

I'd also like to note that my top three choices all avoided empking wagon

Why does this matter? Empking was

bookied

- if anything, I'd expect scum to be more inclined to jump on the wagon since bussing gives towncred, the lynch was inevitable, and they needed it to happen that day or either the bookie would fail or they would have to use another shot of it (depending on how many shots their bookie has). Is it scummy to have not been on the emp wagon?

my reasons for voting had nothing to to with quil's reasoning on ythan/ethos. i also was not backpedaling on anything? i was attacking the fact that he gave himself an excuse to stop posting but then did not take it. it was hardly influential in my decision to vote him. the majority of my reasoning for voting ethos was tied up in his interactions with parabollocks and the argument he had with spyrex and ythan, as well as his attempts to constantly use meta. and i do in fact believe that using meta is scummy.

You mentioned explicitly that you agreed with quil's reasoning and that you had a townread on Ythan (implying a scumread on Ethos) in the same post that you voted for Ethos. I assume from this that quilford's reasoning is part of your reasoning on your vote. When I talked about backpedaling, i was referring to a term that you yourself used in the same post.

If those are your main reasons for the Ethos vote, then firstly: what about his parabollocks interactions/argument with spyrex/ythan was scummy? Why didn't you mention these interactions in the initial post where you voted him? Secondly, what scum motivation is there to use meta arguments? Why is any given person more likely to use meta arguments as scum than they are to use meta arguments as town (if there's no reason for this, then you can't justify Ethos using meta as a reason for voting him)?

First paragraph: I don't feel like I was being overdefensive about the hydra point - I was just responding to it. The "others flipping town implicating me" thing was me asking spyrex to clarify something - I wanted to know if he meant that we were just his third strongest scumread, or if there was a specific reason that ethos/para flipping town would cause him to have a scumread on us (i.e. a connection). As for "fake attempts at scumhunting," you calling them fake doesn't make them fake. You haven't explained how anything that we've said looks like "fake scumhunting" to you - and unless you do, your argument is invalid.

@487: how have I not detailed my argument on Spyrex? I explained it in-depth in 415... did you not read that post? did you just ignore it? As for not voting on the suspicion, why if I was scum would I even need to give myself an excuse to not vote spyrex? Why couldn't I, as scum, just vote him and say Misder agreed with me? Why is it a scum behavior to use that to justify not voting Spyrex when as scum I could just as easily have voted him?
@695: essentially, when I was saying that, it was because of Spyrex's playstyle. The way that Spyrex is playing, I feel, will make it easier to read him as the game goes on. His attempt to develop a voting block, for example, will mean more after more people in that voting block have flipped. I also want to see how his reads develop as the game goes on.
@754: Untrod was the scumread that Misder and I had the most agreement about. The list of "more likely scum" was just listing people that weren't in my town list, which is why I went through all of them to get better individual reads. As for "not committing to anything" - this is just a ridiculous accusation.
that post wrote:
So My main scumreads would be kanye, untrod, zepher (but he hasn't posted yet so we'll see), and spyrex. I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him.

I "commit" to scumreads in this line. Again, did you miss this line or ignore it? Also, why should town commit to reads in the first place? The game is constantly shifting with new information every day - why should anyone but scum commit completely to any particular read? Why is there more scum motivation to "not commit" to reads than there is town motivation?

You're right, calling it fake doesn't make it fake. I said that it felt to me like it was fake, that you were doing it for the sake of appearing to want to scum hunt. I admit, this is a very subjective point.
re: 695, I still don't get why you need to point out that a lynch on someone you think is null isn't necessary "today."
re: 754, the important part is this: "claims that empking is leaning town? he then says he would not be against the empking lynch." Your top read is UT, empking is leaning town for you. But you are not opposed to abandoning your top read and making sure you are on the empking wagon. We can happily look at this in retrospect knowing that empking was scum and it makes sense why you would want to make sure you were on a scum wagon if it had to go through.
Your point about "committing" to reads is a bit of a strawman. Not once did I mention anything about that and your attacking and easily refuting my phantom argument doesn't really say much. My main point was that you are setting these reads up and conflicting this way and that but it did not feel like you actually had any interest in pushing any of those reads. My point above re: 754 only aids this. This returns to my point about it feeling like you were fake scumhunting.

As far as the hydra thing goes, I don't like your play for the same reason that I did not like that of Ethos. You can express to us that you have dissent between the heads leaving you free to flip flop to whichever side you want. I agree that reads are an ever changing thing and sticking steadfastly to them is just being obstinate, but the way that you are setting up the dissent between yourself feels manufactured to me.

Chair, could you update us on your reads and where you believe everyone stands?

If you can't justify why you see it as fake, then your point has no merit. 695: Iirc, someone asked me why I wasn't voting Spyrex. I explained why. 754: first of all, the deadline was fast approaching at that point. As I also explained in that post, Empking is difficult for me to read. I have no idea what you're talking about in "making sure that i was on the empking wagon" - I said I was willing to lynch empking because the deadline was approaching and I think the empking wagon was bigger at that point, and there was also a Yos wagon, and I would have pushed an Emp lynch over a Yos lynch by far. I understand the point you're trying to make, but why if I was trying to keep an option to jump on Emp open would I not have joined his lynch wagon? Isn't it a simpler explanation that it was close to deadline and I wanted to ensure that there would be a lynch?

he wants to appear like he is scum hunting without having to commit to anything. i don't like it at all.

So yes, you DID in fact mention EXACTLY that. I'm not strawmanning you at all. As for not having interest in pushing reads - I'll admit that we haven't been pushing reads very hard. I've explained why I didn't push spyrex day one, we did push untrod to an extent (and get him lynched). I find reads easier to develop over the course of the game - I'm more confident in my reads now than i was on day one to a very large extent. At this point, Misder and I feel strongly about kanyescum, so I'm pushing kanye hard. I'll probably be pushing Spyrex fairly hard tomorrow if kanye is lynched.
As for my reads:
01. saporovirus - null
02. MrZepher - null
04. mastin2 - town
05. Knight of Cydonia - null
06. kanyeknowsbest - scum
07. Îdher - town
09. SpyreX - scum
15. Oversoul - town
16. kunkstar7 - null
17. Yosarian2 - town
I know Misder agrees on my scumreads and townreads. I don't know what he thinks of the people I currently see as null.

[Chair]

Now, you'll notice something. My list, the one he took such great umbrage with? None of those reads are scum by the bipolar hydra.

The closest, the CLOSEST, is me. At "ohh, teehee he's null / ohh, teehee he's scum."

This is a strawman representation of what I said.

Ythan, I understand why he's on there. Spyrex, it makes sense to put oneself on there. Hiraki, I also understand. But knight, t-bone and kanye? I can understand townreads on these people -

but it seems like spyrex has ridiculously strong townreads on them for this point in the game.

Especially t-bone and kanye. I also just kind of don't like the proposition of a 6-person voting block when: A, there are plenty of people that still have barely posted; B, it's only a 17-person game and 6 people is 2/3 of a lynch wagon; and C,

there's no town reason to have such damn strong town reads on these people.

I was never criticizing your list for being full of people that I thought were scummy - I was criticizing

you

because I didn't see any possible way that early in the game to justify such ridiculously strong town reads on so many people. You said something like "If these people were the only ones alive and the game wasn't over, i'd be genuinely surprised" - this implies

extremely

confident reads. I was criticizing you because such strong reads were, I thought, impossible to justify at that point in the game. See point A in my quoted post for more reason about that.

Although, this is a beautiful example of a strawman argument... you take what I was saying (unjustifiably strong townreads), say that I was saying something else (that people on the list were scum) when I NEVER said anything VAGUELY like this, and then attack that new position ("but they never called these people scum!!!")

Vote town, FoS buddy while saying they dont actually think their scum. Noice.

And since its a giant wall I'll just link: viewtopic.php?p=3161166#p3161166

Holding hands with mastin town mctowntown? Check.
Saying I'm scum but not attacking because "its not the right time"? Check.
Saying empking is "null by definition"? Check.
Being a "helper" about the deadline? Check.

First point: no, it wasn't a fos. I explained this in the response to kanye above - the deadline was approaching and an emp wagon existed while a UT wagon, I believe, didn't. You're right, I didn't say he was scum. I didn't say he was a fos. I said he was null leaning town and that in the event of needing to lynch empking to get a lynch through, that we would support his wagon (especially over yos's).
"holding hands with mastin" I'll assume that by this, you mean the way that I stated my reads... I was planning to do this before I saw mastin's post. I find it easier to townhunt than to scumhunt in many cases. I don't see how it's scummy either, seeing as you seem to imply that it is.
I explained why it was, as you put, "not the right time." Several times in fact. You quoting it and twisting my/misder's words to sound scummy does not make it scummy.
Empking is null by definition in my opinion. Again - you quoting something doesn't make it scummy.
we were being a "helper" about the deadline because we didn't want there to be a nolynch - AGAIN, you twisting our words doesn't make it scummy in the slightest... calling us a "helper" doesn't make us scummy IN THE SLIGHTEST... sure, there's a possible scum motivation for helping with the deadline (wanting to look like town). There's also a very OBVIOUS town motivation (the desire to have a lynch). You haven't justified why one of these is more likely than the other.

This is a scum position. A live scum partner IS better than two shots. Further, when it swings against who looks all the better because scum are going to want to get the bookied target lynched? Yep. He's the scum off.

And, of course, not another post that day.

First of all, the last sentence is a blatant LIE, that was not our only post that day...
As for scum not wanting to be on the wagon, this is in a sense at some point a wifom argument... scum will want to be on the wagon because it'll give towncred because empking is scum, but they'll want to be off because it looks scummy to be on bookied scum. In the end, it boils down to two things:
1) scum needed to push that wagon in order to get the bookie through.
2) if the wagon had failed that day and we had gone with a different lynch and lynched empking later,

scum would have lost that bookie shot.

scum HAD to push the wagon THAT DAY. This isn't a normal lynch wagon - it's a wagon that the scum needed to go through THAT DAY to get the bookie. Even if they had a second/third/whatever shot, they would have wanted to save those extra shots.

The thing, the ONE thing you'd think a town-hyrda would do here? Mention that KKB had a higher chance of being scum because he was on the Emp wagon.

Of course, that's hard to do when you're scum. Better blame this on mastin on the way out.

Um. what. why. what. what does this mean. why is this. what the fuck does this mean... why would you "expect" town to say this... why wouldn't scum say this...

In summary: this anti-us wall has a lot of "paraphrased" quotes from us that are rephrased in ways to make them sound scummier and about two or three places where spyrex overtly calls something scummy or explains why something we've done is scummy, one of which is just a damn blatant misrepresentation of the truth, and at least one other blatant lie.

~implosion

[Chair]

Ohh NOES STRAWMAN.

[sarcasm]I like how this responds to my point.[/sarcasm]

If I'm right about that list (and I think I am) scum can't just let it happen. However, a full frontal attack is suicide AND just furthers my goals. So, you've got to prod at it and poke at it. Something along the lines of "Ohh, look at your confident reads." trying to spark doubt (and its not like this was a page 3 list).

Well lets see. There's one main problem with this. It ignores my argument. My argument was that I never said that the people on your wagon were scummy, and therefore that you were misrepresenting what I said. Well, seeing as you never responded to this... or even mentioned it... i'm going to assume that you have no response for it because you're scum.

Now, anyway, to respond to what you DID say... here, you did represent my argument more accurately. However, your logic is still flawed for two reasons:
1) it assumes that every single person on that list is town.
2) it assumes that I'm scum.
1) is obvious, and I think you'd agree that you're assuming that with this argument. I'd also note that you really haven't justified everyone on that list as being town. In order to justify this, you'd either have to justify individual townreads (which you really haven't done) or just justify it by saying that the whole list is town because i'm scum (in which case, you can't use it as an argument against me as it would be circular).l.,uuuuyyuyhyyyh As for 2), here's how it assumes that I'm scum. Lets say that every single person you listed is, by some chance, town. Then my behavior could be two things:
A) scum - I am, as you said, prodding at it.
B) town - I disagree with you and think that your suggestion was indicative of you being scum, and am voicing my disagreement and opinion.
There is no reason that you have given that it can't be B). Now, your response to this will be something like "but all of the people on the list are town, the scum are going to prod at it and you were prodding the hardest" - well, see subpoint 1). And more than that, scum wouldn't even necessarily prod at it - it's conceivable that scum would just ignore it in the hopes that it would dissipate (if it were all town, which I'm pretty damn sure it isn't) and then attack it if it didn't. There's no reason to assume that my behavior is scum behavior when there's a town motivation for my actions and you haven't explained why the scum motivation is more likely.

1.) Semantics doesn't change "I'd be ok with lynching him" being an expression of suspicion.
2.)
"Not to imitate mastin, but this leaves for the most likely scum as far as i can tell: kanye, untrod, spyrex, empking, kunkstar, saporo, mrzepher."

This isn't "I agree with mastins reads and this is why" this is a parrot. This is holding hands with mastin.
3.) No one is 'null by definition'. That is a meta copout that with him flipping scum and you going "Ohh I'm ok with this lynch" it sure as hell wasn't null. In fact, IN THAT POST, you went "he's kind of townish" too. So even you don't believe he's null.
4.) There was never, ever going to not be a lynch. Pushing UT and going "deadline comin guys" is bunk.

1) well, I thought your post was supposed to be a case. Rhetoric is not a case. If you're just using rhetoric to say "I fos implosion" then that's well and dandy. It still doesn't explain why you fos me or why my actions are scummy, and doesn't therefore qualify as a case.
2) it is in a way a parrot, because I saw him do essentially exactly what I had been planning to do and found it noteworthy. I don't see why you seem to say that this is scum-motivated. Are you saying I'm buddying him? I just find a similar method of stating my reads convenient, and found that noteworthy. it's as simple as that.
3) meta, yes. A copout, no. I find Empking unreadable, which should be understandable considering what experience I have with him (I mentioned it earlier, he faked mason as doc thinking he was vt in a game i was in). I had him as leaning town for some reason that I stated at the time. I had empking as null leaning town. Again, me being okay with the emp lynch was because it was near deadline and he and yos were the two wagons that existed at that point, and I had yos as town.
4) yes, there wouldn't have been a nolynch because people are vigilant enough to make sure that there isn't one. However, deadline still makes it necessary to hurry. Our UT vote was partially because there was already a vote on him and partially because he was the scumread that we had the most agreement on at that point.

This isn't a function of WIFOM. Its a scum win-win in all scenarios but a different scum getting lynched. Either you have Empking another day OR you get to shots that night.

You came in and went "lol bookie" and "lol meta" and then...threw mud at KKB your next post and then went "we need more talking guys!" and no where in there even laid a vote down.

I agree. For the scum, either empking is alive another day (not lynched) or they get a second kill (lynched). Now, if you admit this... then why in the WORLD are you trying to use that wagon to find scum? In fact, I'd go so far as to say that

the following two quotes from SpyreX are directly contradictory

:

A live scum partner IS better than two shots. Further, when it swings against who looks all the better because scum are going to want to get the bookied target lynched?

This isn't a function of WIFOM. Its a scum win-win in all scenarios but a different scum getting lynched. Either you have Empking another day OR you get to shots that night.

Either it's a win/win or one is better than the other. You can't say both things.

Why would I expect town to actually use things that have happened to adjust their reads versus the same agenda? GOORSH.

Sooooo.... when exactly did I say that kanye is more likely scum for having been on the emp wagon? IN FACT, if you think that those off the wagon are more likely to be scum (see contradictory quote number one), why would you expect me to criticize him for being

ON

the wagon?

FTR: I don't see those on the wagon or off the wagon as being particularly scummy for their position at this point. I said that it's essentially wifom. So, Spyrex is criticizing me for not having stated an opinion to push kanye; an opinion which I do not hold. I referred to all of my previous posts on the matter in that post. If I had said that at some point, I would have referred to it anyway. If this isn't a reaching attack, I honestly don't know what is. It attacks me for NOT SAYING SOMETHING. In this attack, he isn't criticizing things we've said, he's criticizing something i DIDN'T say. Something that I not only didn't say, but that I disagree with!

-implosion

[Chair]

Sorry, the UT having a vote on him other than us was from when I decided to keep the vote on him after I took a larger look through the game:

I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him. Empking wagon going through wouldn't be too bad. Yos wagon going through would be bad. I'll move our vote to emp if necessary for a deadline lynch.

Misder was the one that initially put our vote on UT.

You said you were ok with an emp lynch when he was a viable wagon and before you gave your read on him being 'townish' + qualified garbage.
Both of these happened before emp claimed which is the only thing that saved his ass.

Actually, yes, this is true. We said we were okay with am empking lynch before I looked through the game and decided that I thought he was null leaning town. As I've explained probably four or five times at this point, there were Empking and Yos2 wagons. Our first choice for a lynch at that point was UT. If that wagon didn't develop and, say, there were competing Yos2 and Emp wagons, I was indicating that we would go for the emp wagon over the yos2 wagon.

[Chair]

Not voting: Îdher, Oversoul, MrZepher

Vote someone. KoC was also on that list but he was just replaced.

Kanye is town although I'm starting to get paranoid at him being gone soo much.

Nice, subtle distancing with scum who's about to be lynched.

[Chair]

Why was there one kill night one and three night two. Was this answered somewhere in here?

I'll read this soon.

Scum shot + bookie shot + vig shot. n1, empking was supposed to prove his claim, so it would make sense that a real vig wouldn't shoot.

[Chair]

I could see saporovirus as scum. Something about zepher's posting makes me think he's town. I'll try to explain that more in-depth if asked.

Anyone who was neither on that wagon nor strongly protesting it is scummy, yes. Scum wanted the wagon to go through, but it is not a wagon I would like to be on if I were scum.

assuming that this is directed at me - the issue is that I have a town motivation for this as well. I had reason to believe that empking could have been town, which i've explained - however, I didn't have an explicit town read on him. I thought it would be fine to lynch someone else and give him a second chance, but I didn't have any reason not to lynch him either seeing as he was, of course, likely to be scum.

i did justify why i felt it was fake though. anyways, spyrex elegantly summed it up better than i did. vote town, fos buddy.

"vote town, fos buddy" is well and good, but only if the voter/foser in question has flipped. You can't use it to determine that person's alignment. Why? Well, simple. Town members don't know other peoples' alignments. So it's completely possible - in fact, it's bound to happen to some town members at some points in the game - that they will vote someone who is town and fos someone who is scum. If there's a deceased scum who happened to vote one person and fos another, it's a perfectly reasonable tell to use - but it can't be used to discern MY alignment.

Here is a question Chair: you have been mentioning spyrex and me as scum together a lot. if i were lynched today and flipped town, would that affect your read on him? vice versa?

Slightly. I have both of you as scum reads independently of each other. However, you do make sense as a team as well. So if one of you flipped town, that part would obviously disappear, but i would still have an independent scumread on the other.

I could swing for a Chair lynch mainly for the whole "shutdown the townbloc" deal way back when, but sapo is obvious at this point with empking flipped.

Actually, I did very little in the way of attacking the block itself relatively to attacking SpyreX. If spyrex had explained why each of the people in the block were town with reasonable explanations, I wouldn't have found it scummy of spyrex.

Looking at the way Empking did this makes me lean to him placing all scum in the null category, and possibly one in the regular town category. Sapo and Chair both fit here. Yos is likely town too from this.

I would disagree with you there - i see no reason that emp wouldn't have put a scumbuddy in the scum category. Yos is still town though, and I lean town on kunk right now. People are convincing me that sapo is the last scumbuddy from empking interactions.

I'm going to have to keep disagreeing with you on this Idher, I am convinced that the majority of scum were in the group of people who were neither on the wagon nor tried to stop it. Also, I am really not seeing anything that makes saporo a better lynch than chair or zepher.

Why do you continue to assert this even after it's been explained that the scum

had

to have the wagon go through that day?

Swag was obv-town. Simple as that. Zepher's play seemed to be town as well. I didn't see scum Motivation in his moves. I didn't see scum Tone in his posts. I didn't see any condemning interactions from him. And speaking in more traditional scumhunting terms, I don't see any real evidence against him. The same applies to his predecessor, only moreso. The guy's obv-town.

This sums it up well, actually... zepher's actions just don't feel like they come from scum. There just doesn't seem to be much scum motivation.

Scum can not win a phyrric game with even a bookie.

This is just bad... Think of it from emp's point of view (in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the mafia planned this in pre-game): He's going to be lynched. He's scummy. How does he save himself? Why, claim a confirmable power role! there's a bookie, so it not only delays his lynch a day, it gives the scum a free extra kill! Scum aren't going to lynch bus every single scum with a bookie - first of all, we don't even know how many shots the bookie has... second of all there's no reason that the scum couldn't try to push a lynch on a bookied townie instead of a bookied scum.

And that is assuming super awesome bookie. The ONLY way Empking wasn't the right lynch is...

1-shot bookie. That is it.

Which is better for the town: consuming one bookie-shot or consuming two bookie-shots in the case of a 2+-shot bookie?

I may be convinced to wagon sapo.

Also,

Îdher

, why exactly is kanye town?

[Chair]

Theres no point in arguing about this now. Lets move on and lynch Chair please.

I honestly shouldn't even need to explain why this is scummy.

i will anyway. We have a week until deadline, or something like that. There are several active wagons (you, us, sapo, zepher are all possible lynches for today). Why would we stop arguing and discussing when we still have so much time left in the day and there are so many possibilities?

[Chair]

-implosion on both of those by the way.

[Chair]

chairwagon summed up: interaction with empking/ut wagons day1, interaction with the empking wagon day2, attack on a townblock consisting of people he agreed were town, reaction to spyrex's prodding day1.

My defense summed up: I explained how my day one interactions have a town motivation, your assigning of a scumtell to how I acted day two is controversial and I gave why I acted how I did either way, I didn't agree that the people on the block were town. I agreed with some of them, and others I had as null or scummy. But I wasn't attacking the concept of a town block - I was attacking

SpyreX

for not

justifying

the people that he included in the town block. I'm not sure what you mean by my reaction to spyrex's "prodding" on day one, or how that reponse was scummy.

this still doesnt fly. empking was basically mod confirmed not vig.

I explained both my reason for thinking he might have been town and my reason for disagreeing with you on this reason, namely that it was a form of outguessing the mod.

As for the rest of your post... "yes it can" is a meaningless response, and if you read the quoted post I was in fact attacking SpyreX. In order to explain why his proposition was scummy, I had to explain why his proposition didn't make sense, e.g. points A B and C. Notice how I conclude with the most important point: "there's no

town

reason to have such strong town reads." That is, I don't see what SpyreX said as having come from town. I'd also indicated suspicion of SpyreX prior to the quoted paragraph, so even if I hadn't explicitly stated this it could be implied that I was attacking SpyreX himself.

As for this gem...

Because town was more than happy to oblige them and push it through.

The reasoning that I was talking about wasn't talking about the location of town members in the wagon / off the wagon, it was talking about the location of

scum

. Lets say that there are scum on the emplynchwagon. Now, lets say that none of them had ever joined it. It's completely possible that it would never have gone through without any scum pushing. Now, let me assert this point: the scum almost DEFINITELY wanted empking to be lynched on day two, for the simple reason that he was dead meat to them at that point and they may as well have tried to get in a free double kill, especially at that point when it allowed them to totally eliminate the masonry. They couldn't risk what would happen if they didn't join the wagon. So scum would push the wagon.

Your implicit reasoning for "off the wagon but not against the wagon" would be something like those people not wanting to be caught up but also not wanting to stop it... this is easily refuted: if the majority of scum were off the wagon, they'd be risking the wagon not going through, a very bad situation for them. They lose a bookie shot and have to decide whether or not to use another one, and empking is still doomed.

[Chair]

b.) I seriously don't even get what the case on him is supposed to be

Hey Spyrex, did you read this? You aren't making any sense...

Which is better for the town: killing a confirmed scum or lynching someone else?

Most scenarios: killing confirmed scum. This scenario: lynching someone else, lynching empking later and - oh, maybe even leaving empking as vigbait instead of lynchbait. Why?

The scum bookied Empking. THIS ALONE means that the scum wanted to lynch empking that day. If they wanted to lynch someone else, they would have bookied someone else or saved the shot.

Why the hell would the scum waste a bookie shot on someone that they weren't planning to try to lynch......

-implosion

[Chair]

He was booked because HE WAS GOING TO DIE.

...at some point. The scum wanted him to die that day. I agree with Îdher... you're being really, really dense right now.

The alternative is not lynching scum under the *mystical hopes* that different scum gets lynched or the net result is worse AND empking is there to do that same song and dance again.

The net result of lynching has a risk making things worse? I guess you should be voting no lynch then...

Well, where are we now... we're exactly where we were yesterday, minus one eventually confscum empking who could have been eliminated at any time, minus two conftown masons, minus one obvtown hiraki. So I guess we're going to need mystical hopes to lynch scum today? I guess all of mafia is just a depressing game? In fact I'd say we we'd have had a BETTER chance of lynching non-empking scum yesterday than we have of lynching non-empking scum today, seeing as we had two extra confirmed town voices of reason and only one extra person who could have been scum in hiraki (HINT: he wouldn't have been lynched).

PLUS, "to do that same song and dance again" implies either an assumption or inside knowledge that the bookie is more than one-shot. If it's an assumption, then you have no reason to make that assumption, and even if you DO make that assumption then why in hell would the scum want to waste a shot? if it's inside knowledge... WELP.

-implosion

[Chair]

Yes, the net result of not lynching confirmed scum has a pretty high risk of making things worse this is not rocket science.

I've got to bounce but good lord. You're literally trying to say an empking alive on D3 woulnd't have been "OHH GUYS WHAT IF HE WAS SUPER BOOKIED TWICE"

Well. Seeing as you aren't listening to logic or reason, I'm just going to leave this argument as it is. Using 2 shots would be better than 1. If there only is 1 shot, all the better, and you yourself even admitted that if the bookie is one-shot that putting of the lynch would be a good thing (or something to that extent).

I'll take some cool cat reasons, ludi.

-implosion

[Chair]

That reminds me:

I'm going to be V/LA for two weeks starting on Saturday. Misder is also V/LA right now. I should have access so I should be able to post, but if we inexplicably stop posting for some reason (if I don't have access or enough time to post) then feel free to replace us.

[Chair]

kanye wagon stalled.

Unvote, vote: saporovirus

Pretty much sheeping idher since no one is wagoning spyrex or kanye. She's convinced me to a fair extent of saporoscum.

By the way: SpyreX has gradually become a stronger scumread than kanye.

-implosion

[Chair]

(I really do hate building walls.)

You have no idea how much this makes me want to punch you in the face.

-implosion

[Chair]

It's likely that either I'm going to have time to post about as much as I already am, or that I'm completely wrong and won't have access/time at all, which is why I said to replace us if we inexplicably stop posting.

I hope Sapo's flip--and the thing all five of her current voters have in common--will give us a proper view of the Empwagon.

Oversoul was actually on Empking's lynch wagon, but he's town anyway.

[Chair]

i think it would tell us a lot more than a sapo lynch would.

Why?

[Chair]

Hey mastin, I just actually decided to look at the post where you voted us. For some reason I never actually really looked at it.

{SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, saporovirus}
Sapo's one of the scum. Since all three of KoC, Kayne, and Yos2 are on the wagon, that means that SpyreX is more likely town, which makes Chair looking far more likely scum.

What wagon is this referring to? The Empking lynchwagon?

Empking (8):

SpyreX

, Knight of Cydonia, T-Bone, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Oversoul, Hiraki, saporovirus

UT wagon?

Untrod Tripod (9): Chair, mastin2, T-Bone, Ethos, Hiraki, Knight of Cydonia, MrZepher, Yosarian2, kunkstar7

lack of kanye

Apart from this, you don't really seem to have any reason that you fos us over SpyreX, yet we're one of your bigger scumreads. In fact, you partially derived your scumread on us from a scumread on saporovirus, yet we're a bigger scumread than she is. Why?

[Chair]

note: i explained why i moved our vote (kanye wagon stalling, no one voting you, idher's reasoning makes sense). To criticize me for not mentioning it in a specific line of my post, especially considering that that line began with "by the way" implying it was unrelated to my vote is reaching.

If you had, idk, said "Chair is sheeping Îdher" and criticized me for that, then sure, that'd be a justifiable attack. But attacking me for what you attacked me for is not. It's plain reaching.

-implosion

[Chair]

note: i explained why i moved our vote (kanye wagon stalling, no one voting you, idher's reasoning makes sense). To criticize me for not mentioning it in a specific line of my post, especially considering that that line began with "by the way" implying it was unrelated to my vote is reaching.

If you had, idk, said "Chair is sheeping Îdher" and criticized me for that, then sure, that'd be a justifiable attack. But attacking me for what you attacked me for is not. It's plain reaching.

-implosion

i love it every single time chair dismisses and sidesteps valid points and claims "youre not allowed to do that or use that reasoning."

GUYS I REALLY WANT TO LYNCH CHAIR

I did not sidestep the point; I explained why it was wrong, explained why the attack was reaching, and

then

dismissed it.

-implosion

[Chair]

Sigh... looking at votes, we're probably going to be lynched (ludi has indicated that he'd support our wagon over saporo's, and saporo's replacement... well, self-explanatory).

All I can say is: if the vig has another shot, shoot spyrex. If there wind up being two kills that would have come from scum tonight (that is, if we were bookied, which I doubt but it isn't impossible) then SpyreX and kanye should both be dead by two days from now.

saporovirus has been active elsewhere, then suddenly AWOLs for 5 days then requests replacement. I don't see why she hasn't been hammered yet, except that we're going to be lynched as a stupid compromise wagon.

Îdher, mastin and yos are all town. Oversoul is almost definitely town. Zepher is town too. If there's scum on saporo's wagon, it's probably kunkstar. Spyrex is scum. kanye is probably scum, although I'm not as certain at this point as i am about spyrex. saporo is also probably scum. ludi is my least confident read right now, but he's probably town.

-implosion

[Chair]

Ludi: you indicated disinterest in saporo's wagon in 1182 and 1192. You haven't actually talked about us recently, so i suppose you haven't actually. A question then - which wagon do you support over the other if forced to pick between the two? Based on the way votes are being laid out, you have the hammer between me and saporovirus('s replacement). No other wagons have any steam at this point.

-implosion

[Chair]

Because I don't think that there was enough suspicion on us earlier to justify the scum using a shot on us.

-implosion

[Chair]

So, what is this mythical setup where a.) I'm scum and b.) I'm going to lock and load on you without a bookie and c.) I'd be overruled by teammates?

It's called pushing a mislynch. There's no rule that the bookie, if 2+-shot, has to target someone every night. I don't even know what you mean by being overruled by teammates.

[Chair]

By the way, FWIW, it appears that the access here works and that I'll have time to post, so:

Mod:

if I survive today, you can erase the V/LA.

[Chair]

If I'm scum why would I be pushing so hard for YOUR mislynch if you werent bookied?

Are you saying I'm scum with... LLD then? I mean you've said so many names.

"so many names?" I've indicated three main suspects, you, kanye and saporo. Why would the scum have necessarily used another bookie shot last night at all?

[Chair]

A kanye wagon would make me very, very happy, but sadly it probably isn't going to happen.
Not much time tonight to post content. Lots of work to do. Hopefully will be freer tomorrow.

-implosion

[Chair]

Unvote, Vote: kkb

explained in this post. If there is no support at deadline I'll revert to LLD, who is dropping some weak towntells (confusion over roles/about nightkills for example, but it's weak because it's easily fakable).

no way chair is bookied. the resistance to his wagon leads me to believe there is not a heavy scum presence on it. also if spyscum had him bookied, smart scum would have abandoned this wagon long ago. its suicide for scum to push a bookied target this hard.

This argument assumes that I'm scum. You can't use an argument that assumes that I'm scum to talk about my alignment.

there is absolutely zero reason for scum to push a mislynch on you so hard, when there was far more support for sapo or zephyr. assume that spyrex and i are both scum: why the hell would we choose you to target when there has been little suspicion cast in your direction aside from our own? why not pick someone that others have expressed at least minimal suspicion in?

Lolmoresupport? Well, first of all... is sapo really a mislynch? Was there really more support for a zepher wagon? Not really. I mean, I am one of the biggest wagons right now... anyway, I definitely indicated suspicion of both you and SpyreX before either of you indicated suspicion of me. You could just both be reactionarily attacking me, which turned into a lynch attempt because I/we are just right about our reads.

Quickhits, one of chair or mastin2/ythan is probably scum. back to reading...

Why?

kanye's lack of acknowledgement for the line of thought that pushing the Empking lynch was scummy, even though he's responded to arguments about that line of thought, is scummy. He's just ignoring it because it paints him as scum and he has no real response to it other than saying that he thinks scum were [INSERT THE POSITION THAT CHAIR HAPPENED TO BE IN REGARDS TO EMPKING'S WAGON SO I CAN PUSH ON HIM HARDER]. Owait, i'm me, not kanye.

@oversoul 1238 and the kanye post quoted in it; yeah, even more crappy logic. "that's why bussing is a supplemental read." He uses this... to respond to a point that was made that he was bussing. It's circular. "I'm town, therefore you're wrong, which is why bussing is supplemental. Bussing is supplemental, therefore i'm town" is an implicit argument here. Bussing is NOT in any way shape or form supplemental. Interactions are arguably the most important thing to look at in a mafia game because they're one of the more difficult things in general for mafia to convincingly fake. Bussing is an interaction that happens; if we ignored it, scum would just bus every game and win. PLUS this isn't even a normal bus - it was a bus on scum that the scum WANTED TO LYNCH THAT DAY. I've elaborated on this argument what feels like hundreds of times, as has Îdher. But I'm going to lay it out ONE MORE TIME just for those of you who weren't reading:

premise 1) The bookie is x-shot (in the rules)
premise 2) Empking was bookied (2 mason deaths)
premise 3) Empking was going to be lynched at some point in the game (fake vig claim)
premise 4) It is not particularly relevant to the town when exactly Empking dies (he's eventually going to be dead scum, it shouldn't matter to the town whether it's day 2 or 3 especially since he'd become more confirmed as time went on)
premise 5) It is relevant to the scum when exactly Empking dies (death on that day = bookie shot; death on any other day = either no bookie success or wasted bookie shots)
premise 6) from 2), 4), and 5), scum had reason to want Empking dead ON DAY TWO and no later; town had no particular reason or necessity for that lynch to go through that day especially with a likely bookie.
conclusion 7) Scum were more likely to be on Empking's wagon than town because they had reason to lynch him THAT DAY and no other day.

@kanye

: Please explain what premise of this argument is flawed or if the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. You seem very very intent that this argument is flawed, even though it's an incredibly simple argument.

one dead scum is as good as another dead scum.

This. Is. Just. Freaking. Not. True. And it's irritating how (if you and spyrex are town which you aren't) you refuse to accept it. one dead scum is MUCH BETTER than another dead scum and an extra dead mason.

CAN WE LYNCH IT? CAN WE CAN WE?

HE'S SOOOO SCUMMY.

WHY YOU WHITEKNIGHTING SPY-KUN~?

I really, really fucking want to. And this is the point where I decided to vote him.

@Everyone:

Please do one of the following in your next post.
a) explain why kanye is town and why the various things and reasons quoted in this post and LLD's recent posts and my other posts on kanye are wrong.
b) (preferred) vote kanye.

[Chair]

Well SURE no one is going to "follow" when he never tries.

Work with me here.

Who are you referring to here?

[Chair]

Hey, mastin, respond to 1155 at earliest convenience please.

-all implosion

[Chair]

My frank guess if the scum have a bookie with more than one shot is that they would have saved the remaining shot(s) for later use. It was clear that Empking was a likely lynch with his unverified verifiable claim; today on the other hand has no really clear person who will be lynched. And there is no such thing as an "easy lynch." There's some MD article on that. Easy lynches are called that because they're scummy. If I were scum, I doubt I'd have bookied kanye. It just seems like with no real direction that today was necessarily going to go in, scum would be likely to save the shot for when there were fewer people remaining.

-implosion

[Chair]

BUT WE DID NOT HAVE ANOTHER CONFIRMED SCUM.

There was no logical certainty to Empking as scum. You gave some argument about the early day start or something. That was not conclusive. It could have been mod wifom. You're implying that he was confirmed scum. HE WAS, in NO way shape or form *CONFIRMED* scum.

LLD is dropping weak towntells as I said. She might be bussing you thinking that her slot was likely to be lynched. If she's bussing you, then well.. you're scum. You're a bigger suspect than her slot, so I'd rather lynch you.

Will respond to rest later, really freaking tired right now.

-implosion

[Chair]

spyrex 1283: I've explained this. Several times. I've seen empking with pants on head before as town. In Nexusville (mini normal) he fakeclaimed mason as doc thinking he was a townie

in order to attract the nightkill.

yes youd rather vote for me, you said that. but if lld is giving you town vibes now why are you willing to vote for her if you cant lynch me?

a) townvibes from LLD are relatively weak. b) slot still has residual scumminess especially from saporo's 5-day lurkwhilepostingelsewhere. c) I'm confirmed town in my eyes, so I'd rather lynch someone else who may or may not be town. I would, in some cases, rather lynch my strongest townread than myself if in general we're perceived similarly.

stuff

Respond to 1155 please.

If I happen to have a lot of time at some point in the future, I may try to find some other games of Ythan's to read over and see if he acts like he was as scum. My townread on mastin comes from Ythan, so.

[Chair]

HEY MASTIN. STOP IGNORING ME AND RESPOND TO 1155.

[Chair]

1155, 1273, 1304, now this. Are you ignoring me on purpose or just not reading what your top suspect at L-1 is saying because you don't want to respond to it?

[Chair]

if spyrex survives to endgame as scum, i am going to PM every townie that was on my lynch wagon an individualized PM about why I hate you.

P-Edit: what the actual fuck. You're supposed to be town, mastin...

[Chair]

Honestly, my refusal to answer is itself the answer. There's literally nothing in 1155 I see the need to answer. Your continued pushing of a garbage-post for me to answer is confirmation you're scum.

1155 was a reasoned post about why your pushing on me didn't make sense. Why are you refusing to answer this.

NO ONE HAD BETTER HAMMER ME UNTIL MASTIN RESPONDS TO 1155.

[Chair]

Hey mastin, I just actually decided to look at the post where you voted us. For some reason I never actually really looked at it.

{SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, saporovirus}
Sapo's one of the scum. Since all three of KoC, Kayne, and Yos2 are on the wagon, that means that SpyreX is more likely town, which makes Chair looking far more likely scum.

What wagon is this referring to? The Empking lynchwagon?

Empking (8):

SpyreX

, Knight of Cydonia, T-Bone, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Oversoul, Hiraki, saporovirus

UT wagon?

Untrod Tripod (9): Chair, mastin2, T-Bone, Ethos, Hiraki, Knight of Cydonia, MrZepher, Yosarian2, kunkstar7

lack of kanye

Apart from this, you don't really seem to have any reason that you fos us over SpyreX, yet we're one of your bigger scumreads. In fact, you partially derived your scumread on us from a scumread on saporovirus, yet we're a bigger scumread than she is. Why?

A "garbage post." Or as I would phrase it; a post that points out something in mastin's post which was not clarified and asks him to clarify it, something which I might add

was mastin's entire given reason for suddenly changing from spyrexfos to chairfos.

if mastin is somehow scum, spyrex is town (See: ethos push, sudden change from spy to me which would be too obvious) in which case kanye is a probable scumbuddy. Possibly with kunkstar.

[Chair]

So mastin. 1155 had... one, two, three questions addressed at you. Why are you refusing to answer them? If I was wrong and miscounted a wagon or forgot someone, please point it out. If you had some reason for the vote change that you didn't at the time point out, please point it out now.

There is no town motivation whatsoever for refusing to answer a question that has been directed at you five times especially from someone in my position.

Yes i'm flailing because you're pissing me the fuck off. No i'm not flailing as scum.

[Chair]

I looked at it, and double-checked the numbers. Multiple times.
In fact, I did it every time you asked me about it.

And every time, I wondered. "...Is that really the post Chair wants me to respond to? That can't be right. There's nothing there I need to address!"

This is either bad sarcasm or dishonesty. 1155 addressed you directly.

[Chair]

Ah. On rereading 1070, the argument makes sense (insofar as the line of logic is there, even if convoluted). However, this remark still stands:

In fact, you partially derived your scumread on us from a scumread on saporovirus, yet we're a bigger scumread than she is.

If you had clarified your argument you could have saved this trouble... why didn't you just, idk, clarify your damn argument?

Also: lets say i'm scum. Why is it bad to continue arguing with me?

[Chair]

Also, final list of reads if we're hammered:

MAY AS WELL BE INNOCENT CHILDREN: yos2, oversoul, idher. PROBABLY TOWN BUT WHO KNOWS: Ludi, LLD, zepher. ANOMALY: mastin. HEY THEY MIGHT BE SCUM: kunkstar. HEY THEY ARE SCUM: kkb, spyrex.

-implosion

Vig shoots spyrex or kanye tonight if they have more than one shot or i tear their head off and feed it to wildebeests in postgame after the scum win, which at this rate, they are going to do.

[Chair]

I could be town now and KKB is the confirmed scum?
But I'm scum in the reads?
KKB is scum regardless of anything?

Cool stories.

If mastin is scum, then you are probably town. Mastin's behavior is giving me some doubt to the scumread on you because of this.

[Chair]

I'll selfhammer a couple hours before deadline if necessary to prevent a nolynch.

-implosion

[Chair]

lol i like how you explained why

I also like how you have the need to continue attacking everything i say even when i am almost definitely going to be the lynch

[Chair]

Just want to thank implosion for basically taking over the hydra while I was gone without telling him lol (although we did get lynched that day x.x').

GG all.

-Misder