NY135: Sexy Sedilla Semi-Open - Town Wins

[kanyeknowsbest]

/confirm

[kanyeknowsbest]

vote:toad bone

i dont buy that claim for a second buddy.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ebwop re: of course to #5, not #28.

[kanyeknowsbest]

how dare you. i'll have you know i have a very discerning eye

[kanyeknowsbest]

He was pretty eager to get things rolling 12 minutes before Reck opened things up too...

[kanyeknowsbest]

definitely NOT sexy.

[kanyeknowsbest]

are you scum hiraki

[kanyeknowsbest]

whats worse, no vote or a self vote

[kanyeknowsbest]

im going to go with self vote.

unvote, vote: hiraki

if only i had a second vote for knights of cydonia

[kanyeknowsbest]

yeah lets keep jokin around for another 10 pages instead. i bet youd like that.

[kanyeknowsbest]

If you had a second vote, you would want to also put it on Hiraki. Cydonia is still on the "figure out later" list.

-Ether

this is true.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ythan is town. im getting frustrated town vibes from parabollocks despite his inconsistencies. hiraki is still scum, despite trying to laugh it off.

swag is possible scum, i believe the bookmarking bit, but refusing to give any explanation for scum sentiments followed by an L-1 vote with very fluff reasoning does not make town. claims that the L-1 vote can be written off as null for being a newb should also make the eagerness to start the game null as well.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I would be surprised if neither Ythan nor Ethos were scum at this point

I agree. And I have a mega town boner for Ythan.

Ethos: what makes my fluff (I don't believe that my pointed comments towards Hiraki were fluff) more of a sin then the half a dozen players who have contributed less? also meta arguments are bad and you are making a whole bunch of them please stop!

Idk about reg but I am done arguing until we get some fresh thoughts in here.

When you don't follow through with things like this it just looks like you want an excuse to stop posting.

Its 1 fucking AM.

I have an appointment at 9 AM.

We're going nowhere with this. IF I wanted an excuse to stop posting, I would have said "I'm done" or "Whatever" or something dismissing.

except it was an excuse to stop posting. you originally said you were done arguing and just left it at that. then you backpedal and say its a time issue, you could have just said that from the start.

Hiraki isn't scum yo. Ythan is town though so 1 for 2 aint bad.

Its not quite 2 out of 3 though. on that note my next forum name will be meatloafknowsbestmostofthetime.

I wrote the above before in between outings 2 and a half hours ago. I come back and Ethos has made even more meta arguments and thinks the mask is scum for 2 posts followed by a 2-3 day v/la? Like, really? There is absolutely no excuse for this.

Hiraki is still scum, and I hope you will come to see this in the future SpyreX, but for now I am perfectly content with this Ethos wagon.

unvote, vote: Ethos

[kanyeknowsbest]

Um.

I checked the possible role list for crybaby.

Ethos is fakeclaiming.

[kanyeknowsbest]

going back over the last 8 pages or so that i missed while i was out~

my initial thoughts on Ethos revolved around his bad reasoning on the kanye vote, and i also dont like him attaching it to town reading of para (even tho i think (thought?) para is town)

Think about when scum get on a bandwagon. Think about what they do. They need town cred to survive. There are two ways to get that:
1. Bus a scumbuddy
2. Argue against a townie's lynch

So you don't think that scum can get on a wagon they know will flip town?
Also notice that the second is exactly what Ethos is doing right now.

I'm honestly baffled as to why people aren't reading the taking credibility for the wagon as either

1. Indicative they are both scum
2. Indicative he is town

because scum can be on town wagons!!

lol at #204.

#257 claiming that you arent being contradictaroy because youre a hydra isnt a very good excuse. as spyrex pointed out earlier, its your own responsibility to make the hydra work.

#268 spyrex isnt hirakis buddy as spyrex is town. fyi.

#275 agreed.

also seriously, the "meta v/la, but i dont think hes faking v/la" shit just blows my mind. like, theres two of you there, how did you both come to a consensus on this and not dismiss it immediately?

In other news, parabollocks has gone completely silent since people came to his defense. i dont like that at all and i am much less certain in my frustrated town read on him. im null on oversoul and quilford is leaning town. idher is still town and everyone else needs weigh in on the last 8 pages.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Ethos: what makes my fluff

(I don't believe that my pointed comments towards Hiraki were fluff)

more of a sin then the half a dozen players who have contributed less?

also meta arguments are bad and you are making a whole bunch of them please stop!

Italic: If it wasn't fluff then why did you avoid answering what the purpose of the question really was when we asked you. Your fluff included a soft attempt to throw suspicion towards Swag in #35 as well as a flat out meaningless question in post #59.
Bolded: This is incredibly forced and ungeninue, if you believe we're mafia which you seem to do you would have no issue whatsoever with us putting forward arguments you consider weak.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with you doing it and I'm going to keep calling you on meta bullshit.

my initial thoughts on Ethos revolved around his bad reasoning on the kanye vote, and i also dont like him attaching it to town reading of para (even tho i think (thought?) para is town)

This again is forced, note the 'bad reasoning on a kayne vote' where he ignores the fact the vote is on him.

so i cant find a flaw in something merely because its based around me? k.

So you don't think that scum can get on a wagon they know will flip town?

Also notice that the second is exactly what Ethos is doing right now.

Italic: Another massive fucking misrepresenation of the truth, I don't believe scum would start a wagon that will flip town and then TAKE CREDIT for it.
Bolded: So are you attempting to argue that you believe fighting against a townies lynch is a scum-tell?

i dont believe town would either. its a null tell and you are trying to hoist it up as a mega town tell.

#257 claiming that you arent being contradictaroy because youre a hydra isnt a very good excuse. as spyrex pointed out earlier, its your own responsibility to make the hydra work.

You've just seen the word hydra disagreements and attempted to jump to misrepresent again; The 'contradiction' has nothing to with our reads, moreso Slaxx saying he's more confident in our reads than I am.

sorry for calling you out on something that is pretty plain to see (your a bad hydra.)

#335 more meta

#338 okay i could see ethos-para buds now.

Town
Ythan
Oversoul
Hiraki
Ethos
Idher

Null
T-Bone (lean town)
Chair
kunkstar7
quilford
Knight of Cydonia
dramonic
Swag
The Mask
Untripod

Scum
Kanye (will get to this.)

town: everyone who has posted more than twice.
null: everyone who hasnt posted more than twice.
scum: sheeping the guy who saved me from the block, my hero~~~

Hiraki: what was the point of your Parabollocks vote when you unvoted in your very next post? Why did you want to lynch off his wagon?

Even though Parabollocks is scummy, I can't see a town wagon forming this fast.

I didn't know how fast it would go.

You hopped on at L-2, how much faster could it have gone from that point?

Fourteen pages? Fuck you guys.

It isn't that important. Mostly just Ethosand Ythan duking it out.

except a lot actually came out of it? dont write it off just because you dont want to read into it.

on that note, i am going to be out of town until later tonight.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Yes, I can agree that it was a bit of a misspeak, as I said the sole purpose was to attempt to convince him to stay in the game becuase he is a player that I consider good and have had an enjoyable experience with him in the past.

I disagree about KKB, I believe scum have more incentive to lock the lynch between two town players then to just place another vote on the leading one. His vote forced the attention to be stay between myself and Para whereas if he just voted Para and Para claimed a PR there would be a scramble of votes off Para which could result in going anywhere. The hydra business that you state he called us out on has been elaborated on multiple times, the contradiction he attempted to push was one merely stating that we both have different strengths of reads which is in no way a scum-tell.

Regfan.

Conflict between your heads is not in itself scummy, but your manner of handling it and using the excuse of it being a hydra is what strikes me as scummy. Note I haven't called any of the other hydras on this because none of them are going about it in a scummy fashion thus far. And saying that I am forcing attention to stay between your and para is just laughable - how is not voting for someone i think might be town and instead voting someone i think might not be town scummy? also remember that i initially tried to move attention away from para and called out hiraki on voting him to L-2 and then immediately unvoting him. thats hardly trying to get people to choose between you and para.

anyways, i just got home, time to read from page 14. ill have a post on anything juicy i see asap~

[kanyeknowsbest]

unvote; vote: swag

... I dunno, I still think there's something behind him lurking when the game started. Haven't read the 11 pages I missed but I see 6 votes on Para so lol, no.

what.

Nulls can change to scum/town all the time, i like having huge null lists for these reasons, and some town reads can fill those nulls once again etc.

also, just because i have someone as scum doesn't mean i'm gonna vote them yet, i need to make a case on them or put some reasoning behind a vote before i vote someone, that's how i do things, don't like it, oh well.

refusal to commit to any reads by parabollocks

#362 ...

#375 dram

I think Oversoul is town too but how do you discern Swag is town?

So I really don't think Oversoul 'claimed' anything. With the 'w00t!' in front of the 'claim' it reads less like "oh I started that wagon I want due credit" and more like "hey I'm a noob and I did something right for once".

Ignores the fact that he earlier stated he had a town-read on Oversoul, doesn't state any reasoning behind it but states disagreement with the reasoning behind our town-read.

spyrex already touched on it but because he disagrees with your reasoning for a town read does not mean he can't think the dude is town.

3. I don't expect you to read our minds in regards to our reads but surely you would understand that we would make statements regarding reads that aren't all mentioned in-thread.

hydrascuses

Vote: Quilford

why

That makes your statement about "Ohh para look the scums are trying to kill you because of how right you are in your reads (KKB)" make even less sense because that wagon is made by and pushed HARD UN FAST by your now town reads.

this.

SpyreX, it's not a change of universe at all. Prior to that post all of those reads had been mentioned apart from KoC who hadn't posted until then. If you want a particular town-read explained ask otherwise I'm not in the particular mood to go around explaining them all. The statement in regards to the wagon formation was made by Slaxx with the intention of attempting to state that Para shouldn't let it all get to him too much. Essentially it was a plea to not quit playing mafia completly because Para is infact a good player. The intention behind it wasn't saying that the people strongly pushing para are scum as we only had two scum read on the wagon both relatively early on it however I can understand how you may read it as that initally. Honestly, I think what's making this game incredibly aggravating is that you've locked yourself into a mind-set that we're scum without actually taking a step back and reassesing which I urge you to do at some point in the next day or so.

im not obligated to tell you any of my reads im just going to keep them to myself so i can completely change my opinions at what appears to be the drop of the hat and when you call me at it, god, its in my hydra qt. please keep up. Fuck that. if you were town you would have no issues with being up front about your reads instead of hiding them.

#395 hiraki and i agree on something. yet i still find it lacking.

ill take this time to note i said that i hadn't given any of the other hydras besides ethos grief about their play. koc brings up a point in #396 i agree with. start explaining yourself idher.

oh.

Oversoul, I have many reasons for my vote on Quilford and it has little to do with Ethos. I'll throw you all a bone, though, and offer a few:

Quilford, you've asked a lot of questions. What I'm missing are the conclusions.

And the way you talk about people's alignments is sketch.

Thats fine. id like more than a bone please. also ellaborate on the koc scumread.

KoC: Thank you, I suppose. I'm actually unable to sit down for a good hour or so to read all these pages. I will torture myself in a few more days by reading what I've missed but right now I NEED to play from page 15 onwards. Nice to know my swag vote is shitposting... oh but it's SpyreX saying that so yeah, of course he's chainsawwing.

how is voting swag playing from page 15 onwards at all. he has not posted since he put parabollocks at L-1 back on page 5 or whatever. i personally think theres a very good chance hes scum but lets hear your reason for this highly relevant vote to whats going on page 15 and onwards. (dear future mask replacement, i wish you could read his mind and answer this for me... i hope it doesnt keep me up at night)

SpyreX, the 'you're right' bit revolved around his shared suspicion of Kayne with the 'this is why it's happening' involving two of our scum-read being on the wagon though in hindsight sure it's not the reason his wagon is being pushed but that's semantics. I told you to pull your head out of your ass because you're not reconsidering other suspects just tunnelling towards Para and us. You telling us that our thoughts are only from our point of view thus meaningless is proof of this. Do me a favour, read the thread, heck skim it from all I care with the mindset that Para and ourselves are town, then tell me who your leading suspects are.

lol no. its not semantics at all. its completely unrelated to reality. please try to remember that until you came to his defense and he started goin bonkers i had a town read on him and was questioning those on his wagon.

#407 lol

- I really wanted to think that Hiraki was scum after some stuff of his I didn’t like in the random voting, but his behavior around the Parabollocks wagon feels town. I’m having trouble justifying why, tbh, but…first, he joined the wagon, then he unvoted and said that the wagon was probably pushed by scum because it was moving too fast. The whole thing gives me a town vibe on Hiraki.

How is that town. He put him at L-2, waited for Swag to move it to L-1 and then unvoted and said "woh too fast for me!!" thats not town.

So, I definitely want some more Yos. A lot more actually. Especailly in regards to Ethos (note: not Ethos/Ythan parade).

agreed.

hiraki i liked it better when u made that big effort post instead of lots of little posts that dont say anything. siiigh. will we ever be able to reconcile our differences?

[kanyeknowsbest]

still happy with my ethos vote, especially with his vanishing act. quilford replace is null to me.

swag has still yet to post since putting parabollocks at L-1. im going to wait for a few more yosarian posts before i try to reconcile his actions with those of paras.

V/LA until monday night

happy fathers day ya'll

[kanyeknowsbest]

sorry yall, I was out of town a day longer than i thought i would be.

unvote

im gonna reread this afternoon and reevaluate my reads.

[kanyeknowsbest]

no issues with the mason thing.

i like hiraki as the vig target.

not really getting scum vibes from tripod.

#612 kunkstar votes empking with zero reason or comment on the slot prior. also claims ethos mason makes yos look better but im not seeing how it affects it at all.

oversoul: im not sure what to make of it. kid has no idea what hes doing but im not sure if its related to his alignment.

zepher: i felt scum about swag and his resistance to posting reads along with finally posting something in #795 furthers my suspicions.

saporovirus: feeling pretty null but i have to wonder why he is trying to push an empking wagon after he already claimed vig.

town
spyrex
ethos
tbone
dramonic
empking
mastin

likely town
koc
idher
yosarian
untrod tripod

null
saporovirus
oversoul

scum
chair
kunkstar
mrzepher
hiraki


Chair: getting defensive at spyrex being mad at hydras due to ethos, preemptively getting defensive about others flipping town implicating him, inconsistencies and what i feel to be fake attempts at scumhunting designed not to distract from other wagons.

#487 claiming dissent between the heads is an excellent way to call someone scum and not follow it up with a vote or more detailed argument.

#695 "SpyreX lynch is not necessary today." what does that mean. especially since in #708 you say that he is only null.

#754 his vote is on untrod tripod but he reads him as "null-leaning-scum." also in that same post he says empking is likely to be scum but then claims that empking is leaning town? he then says he would not be against the empking lynch. all in all, this post feels to me like he is just trying to put some reads out to cover himself and he is not actually interested in pushing any case. he wants to appear like he is scum hunting without having to commit to anything. i don't like it at all.

Vote: Chair

with hiraki eating the vig tonight, i would like zepher or chair to eat rope. untrod tripod is at L-1 now and i am not really comfortable with his lynch. i still need to reread yosarian2 and koc but i want to go ahead and post this now considering how close we are to lynchtime.




on another note im starting to feel like i was really spoiled by my first time playing with a hydra with how in sync and on top of things dgb/camn hydra was in speed mafia.

[kanyeknowsbest]

lol hiraki

[kanyeknowsbest]

btw apologies 4 my tardiness. im a little swamped, but im mostly caught up now and should be able to stay afloat.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i agree, tripod lynch is looking pretty imminent but it would be really great if everyone would jump to chair instead.

[kanyeknowsbest]

agreed with idher. if empking is scum (he is) its extremely likely hes bookied. id rather wait to lynch him due to that possibility.

Vote: chair

ill sum up the chair case again when i get home and am not on my phone

[kanyeknowsbest]

Vote: Kanye

That's the scum response I was waiting for.

Scum couldn't have predicted that Empking would not submit his kill.

But now that he's done so, you suggest that's exactly what the mafia did, so we should wait till tomorrow to lynch him. So we agree to lynch him tomorrow, you know what that means? The Bookie tags him tonight.

But Kanye as scum, that's exactly what he wants to happen. Ensure his team's bookie is successful.

Idher next as he essentially suggested we lynch Empking later as well, which would create the same scenario I just described. A Kanye or Idher lynch should be our lynch today.

youre joking right? you honestly believe that empking just happened to "forget" his kill especially with his town confirmation depending on it? thats impossible. there are two possibilities: empking is town (not a vig) pulling some sort of gambit, or hes scum who thought his lynch was imminent and decided to guarantee his lynch the next day by fakeclaiming something he knew would get him lynched. further, it doesn't make any sense to me that scum would not have killed him last night if his claim had any chance of being true due to fear that he may have been fibbing about how many shots he had.

finally, consider

Ending night a bit early since I might not be here later.

yeah right reck would end the night early if there were outstanding night actions as important as a vig kill the vig had claimed he was going to commit.

im sorry t-bone, but ethos was wrong about me and you should analyze whether or not you think im scummy on your own rather than sheep him and jump on a really poor reason to attack me (a reason that i feel actually increases my town read on idher.)

[kanyeknowsbest]

spyrex if you really want this lynch to go through today i will go along with it but im just a little hesitant considering the likelihood of his being bookied.

also re talk of him pulling a gambit or forgeting: theres no way this is a gambit he is 100% confirmed scum.

p-edit: oversoul................

ugh im starting to think hiraki might not be scum

[kanyeknowsbest]

are you claiming daytalk?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Here is what I think happened.

In the scum quick topic, they realized that Untrod and Empking were under pressure and likely to be lynched on Day 1.

In order for town to miss the scum, they have Empking fakeclaim a vigilante ability, which in essence sets scum up to out the true Vigilante and using their nightkill on that person, or potentially setting up a bookie bonus kill the next night as well as killing a townie through the mislynch. From this I assume that Empking is a goon or other mafia role that is not vital. Hell, he might even be the bookie in which case we are fucked. The bookie would have placed the power on Empking preparing for the imminent, "why didn't you use your vig shot ... you're scum" which was going to happen once everyone realized there was only 1 kill last night securing an extra night kill and killing a confirmed scum. However, if the Mafia desperately needed the extra nightkill they would continuously put the power on Empking knowing that he would be lynched sooner or later.

[kanyeknowsbest]

As for the point about ending the night early, it may bear some weight, but assuming that night ending early = no outstanding actions is in essence an attempt to outguess the mod. He said that the reason would be that he wasn't going to be here, so there's no reason that he wouldn't assume action not received yet = no action.

yes but when the mod says you have 72 hours to submit your night action, theres something very wrong when he arbitrarily cuts that time short before you have submitted your action. i do not believe that reck would do something like this.

@spyrex alright! im down.

unvote, vote: empking

[kanyeknowsbest]

Regarding scumpking with no bookie: fakeclaiming vig basically guaranteed his death today. Note he also made the claim at L-4, though there were several others who expressed suspicion of him and it is reasonable to believe a lynch was coming, he still had the possibility of shifting the wagon elsewhere. Alternatively, he could have claimed a harder to confirm power role and had a chance of delaying his lynch beyond today. So really the only explanation I can find for a vig fakeclaim is ensuring his death today for the bookie.

[kanyeknowsbest]

As a heads up, I will be

V/LA from tomorrow until the 5th.

[kanyeknowsbest]

vote: yosarian2

nice slip.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Anyway, if there's 2 mafia left, then if we lynch wrong today,

we mafia

easily win tonight unless we get very lucky with crosskills. I guess we massclaim, try to lynch a member of the mafia, and then prey for crosskills? That's probably our only shot at this point.

he forgot to delete his we. also he seems to know that we are lylo.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i dont think thats the kind of careless mistake you are implying he made chair

[kanyeknowsbest]

Unvote, Vote Chair

Yosarian's excuse makes sense to me, especially in light of his mistake about the lylo likeliness. I did not think about whether or not it was possible for us to be in lylo when I first attacked him for the "we" slip. I was most interested in pointing it out quickly and with certainty to gauge his response. As for other responses to the whole thing, I find Zepher's #934 to be especially troubling.

I'd also like to note that my top three choices all avoided empking wagon (with kunkstar being completely absent from even discussion about it)

I've explained why he's scum. 754 had my primary case (so far) on him. There was also more in 869 and 873. He never responded to any of these.

Well let's fix that, shall we?

Looking at kanye's ISO, he looks scummy to me. Posts 97-98 look manufactured. The attack on Ethos in 318 just feels bad... like a lame excuse to jump on a wagon. The reasons for attacking Ethos are: 1) sheeping quil's reasoning that Ythan/Ethos aren't both town. This is bad reasoning in the first place... there's no intrinsic reason that any given conflict, even if extended like this, can't be town on town. 2) Backpedaling on the reason that Ethos wasn't posting. So what... this is such a minor point that it's ridiculous to attack him for it. 3) Using meta. There's no reason to think that using meta = scum.

Basically, his voting ethos just looks really bad, wagoning while giving really bad reasons for it. Ethos also brought up some of this, and kanye's 347 responding to ethos's arguments is also pretty weak. None of his responses feel like they actually address the arguments Ethos was making. They feel like kanye is just repeating the arguments that he made originally. For example: when Ethos makes a point that kanye sounds disingenuous and that he shouldn't be asking ethos to stop making bad arguments if he thinks ethos is scum, kanye doesn't actually respond to either of these points and just continues to say what he was saying before: "i'm going to keep calling you out for using meta," essentially. He isn't answering the questions, he's just repeating rhetoric.

my reasons for voting had nothing to to with quil's reasoning on ythan/ethos. i also was not backpedaling on anything? i was attacking the fact that he gave himself an excuse to stop posting but then did not take it. it was hardly influential in my decision to vote him. the majority of my reasoning for voting ethos was tied up in his interactions with parabollocks and the argument he had with spyrex and ythan, as well as his attempts to constantly use meta. and i do in fact believe that using meta is scummy.

I responded to 869 already. I thought I replied to 873 before I went on V/LA over the 4th but I must not have.

First paragraph: I don't feel like I was being overdefensive about the hydra point - I was just responding to it. The "others flipping town implicating me" thing was me asking spyrex to clarify something - I wanted to know if he meant that we were just his third strongest scumread, or if there was a specific reason that ethos/para flipping town would cause him to have a scumread on us (i.e. a connection). As for "fake attempts at scumhunting," you calling them fake doesn't make them fake. You haven't explained how anything that we've said looks like "fake scumhunting" to you - and unless you do, your argument is invalid.

@487: how have I not detailed my argument on Spyrex? I explained it in-depth in 415... did you not read that post? did you just ignore it? As for not voting on the suspicion, why if I was scum would I even need to give myself an excuse to not vote spyrex? Why couldn't I, as scum, just vote him and say Misder agreed with me? Why is it a scum behavior to use that to justify not voting Spyrex when as scum I could just as easily have voted him?
@695: essentially, when I was saying that, it was because of Spyrex's playstyle. The way that Spyrex is playing, I feel, will make it easier to read him as the game goes on. His attempt to develop a voting block, for example, will mean more after more people in that voting block have flipped. I also want to see how his reads develop as the game goes on.
@754: Untrod was the scumread that Misder and I had the most agreement about. The list of "more likely scum" was just listing people that weren't in my town list, which is why I went through all of them to get better individual reads. As for "not committing to anything" - this is just a ridiculous accusation.
that post wrote:
So My main scumreads would be kanye, untrod, zepher (but he hasn't posted yet so we'll see), and spyrex. I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him.

I "commit" to scumreads in this line. Again, did you miss this line or ignore it? Also, why should town commit to reads in the first place? The game is constantly shifting with new information every day - why should anyone but scum commit completely to any particular read? Why is there more scum motivation to "not commit" to reads than there is town motivation?

You're right, calling it fake doesn't make it fake. I said that it felt to me like it was fake, that you were doing it for the sake of appearing to want to scum hunt. I admit, this is a very subjective point.
re: 695, I still don't get why you need to point out that a lynch on someone you think is null isn't necessary "today."
re: 754, the important part is this: "claims that empking is leaning town? he then says he would not be against the empking lynch." Your top read is UT, empking is leaning town for you. But you are not opposed to abandoning your top read and making sure you are on the empking wagon. We can happily look at this in retrospect knowing that empking was scum and it makes sense why you would want to make sure you were on a scum wagon if it had to go through.
Your point about "committing" to reads is a bit of a strawman. Not once did I mention anything about that and your attacking and easily refuting my phantom argument doesn't really say much. My main point was that you are setting these reads up and conflicting this way and that but it did not feel like you actually had any interest in pushing any of those reads. My point above re: 754 only aids this. This returns to my point about it feeling like you were fake scumhunting.

As far as the hydra thing goes, I don't like your play for the same reason that I did not like that of Ethos. You can express to us that you have dissent between the heads leaving you free to flip flop to whichever side you want. I agree that reads are an ever changing thing and sticking steadfastly to them is just being obstinate, but the way that you are setting up the dissent between yourself feels manufactured to me.

Chair, could you update us on your reads and where you believe everyone stands?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Just a heads up, this weekend is killin me and I won't have time to post until tomorrow night.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Why does this matter? Empking was bookied - if anything, I'd expect scum to be more inclined to jump on the wagon since bussing gives towncred, the lynch was inevitable, and they needed it to happen that day or either the bookie would fail or they would have to use another shot of it (depending on how many shots their bookie has). Is it scummy to have not been on the emp wagon?

Anyone who was neither on that wagon nor strongly protesting it is scummy, yes. Scum wanted the wagon to go through, but it is not a wagon I would like to be on if I were scum.

If you can't justify why you see it as fake, then your point has no merit. 695: Iirc, someone asked me why I wasn't voting Spyrex. I explained why. 754: first of all, the deadline was fast approaching at that point. As I also explained in that post, Empking is difficult for me to read. I have no idea what you're talking about in "making sure that i was on the empking wagon" - I said I was willing to lynch empking because the deadline was approaching and I think the empking wagon was bigger at that point, and there was also a Yos wagon, and I would have pushed an Emp lynch over a Yos lynch by far. I understand the point you're trying to make, but why if I was trying to keep an option to jump on Emp open would I not have joined his lynch wagon? Isn't it a simpler explanation that it was close to deadline and I wanted to ensure that there would be a lynch?

i did justify why i felt it was fake though. anyways, spyrex elegantly summed it up better than i did. vote town, fos buddy.

At this point, Misder and I feel strongly about kanyescum, so I'm pushing kanye hard. I'll probably be pushing Spyrex fairly hard tomorrow if kanye is lynched.

Here is a question Chair: you have been mentioning spyrex and me as scum together a lot. if i were lynched today and flipped town, would that affect your read on him? vice versa?

Now, anyway, to respond to what you DID say... here, you did represent my argument more accurately. However, your logic is still flawed for two reasons:
1) it assumes that every single person on that list is town.
2) it assumes that I'm scum.
1) is obvious, and I think you'd agree that you're assuming that with this argument. I'd also note that you really haven't justified everyone on that list as being town. In order to justify this, you'd either have to justify individual townreads (which you really haven't done) or just justify it by saying that the whole list is town because i'm scum (in which case, you can't use it as an argument against me as it would be circular).l.,uuuuyyuyhyyyh As for 2), here's how it assumes that I'm scum. Lets say that every single person you listed is, by some chance, town. Then my behavior could be two things:
A) scum - I am, as you said, prodding at it.
B) town - I disagree with you and think that your suggestion was indicative of you being scum, and am voicing my disagreement and opinion.
There is no reason that you have given that it can't be B). Now, your response to this will be something like "but all of the people on the list are town, the scum are going to prod at it and you were prodding the hardest" - well, see subpoint 1). And more than that, scum wouldn't even necessarily prod at it - it's conceivable that scum would just ignore it in the hopes that it would dissipate (if it were all town, which I'm pretty damn sure it isn't) and then attack it if it didn't. There's no reason to assume that my behavior is scum behavior when there's a town motivation for my actions and you haven't explained why the scum motivation is more likely.

1) why is this even an issue? if you agreed with his reads, why does his not explaining them weaken the concept of his town voting block. the rest of this is really great bullshit where you try to disprove his argument by..... side stepping the argument completely and arguing about semantics that dont matter? the fact is, if you actually agreed with his town reads (you said you did) then addressing the voting block that may or may not have materialized should not have been high on your agenda as TOWN. the fact that you did attack it suggests that you felt threatened by the possibility of its existence because you are SCUM.

Kanye is town although I'm starting to get paranoid at him being gone soo much.

Nice, subtle distancing with scum who's about to be lynched.

town++, scumspy has no reason to distance from me when the most likely lynch candidates for today are myself and his primary target.

though it bugs me how easily SpyreX convinced him to flip over.

im a pushover when the argument is "lets lynch conf scum." i did not notice oversoul's 861 before. regardless, i still hold that scum wanted to be nowhere near that wagon.

[kanyeknowsbest]

agree with idher, thats an extremely unlikely scenario oversoul. as for saporo hammering, she only put empking at L-1. thats still as good as hammering though, i suppose, and something i did not give too much thought to previously.

[kanyeknowsbest]

zepher is very likely scum and i dont get yosarian's town read on him. spyrex is town.

why do you think the game becomes easier once we lynch zepher?

[kanyeknowsbest]

note, despite being fairly certain zepher is scum, chair is still my #1 choice.

[kanyeknowsbest]

my mistake, it was mastin who has been throwing out the zepher town reads. dont know why i mixed that up. anyways, i feel that chair scum flip would shed more light on the game than zepher at this point. im going to keep pushing chair for now, but if we can't get more people on board with it i will switch to zepher closer to deadline.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i originally read ythan as very town, and mastin's initial bits were town as well. rereading his day 2 and day 3 though i'm not sure im prepared to call him super town anymore. he fits my scum criteria of staying off the empking wagon, and defends zepher and claimed he thought there were two scum teams (it was pretty apparent what he meant.) chair scumflip would restore my town faith in him, and im not sure how a zepher scumflip would affect my read on him. for now, hes somewhere between null and town for me.

mastin what are your current reads on chair? what did you mean by "willing to wagon chair"

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'm going to have to keep disagreeing with you on this Idher, I am convinced that the majority of scum were in the group of people who were neither on the wagon nor tried to stop it. Also, I am really not seeing anything that makes saporo a better lynch than chair or zepher.

UT is flipped town. Sapo is asking for an alternative lynch on Empking know that a)it wasn't going to happen, which leads to b)free "towncred" for arguing against a townflip when UT flips without necessarily needing to push an alternative wagon, which is win all around for scum considering UT still got lynched.

You do remember that SpyreX and I were also trying to deflect that wagon off of UT, right? You also remember that you came in and hammered him without saying anything while we were in the process of trying to move the wagon, right? I guess while we're talking about this, do you have anything to say on that subject?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Also, since we keep quoting that votecount and its hella buggin me,

@Mod: Is there any mistake in this vote count?

Empking (8): SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, T-Bone, kanyeknowsbest, Yosarian2, Oversoul, Hiraki, saporovirus

As far as I can tell, Hiraki's vote was on Oversoul, and the actual hammer came from Empking. I noticed this during the night, but vote stealer is not on the list of potential roles, it was a lynch anyways, and Hiraki ended up dead so I didn't feel it important to bring up.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Why do you think Ludi and I are mutually exclusive with Yos? Also can you explain your Zepher town read?

[kanyeknowsbest]

Theres no point in arguing about this now. Lets move on and lynch Chair please.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Idher, why are you opposed to a chair lynch.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Ludi apparently doesn't have any reason to think I'm scum so Kanye's willingness to sheep sans the vote seems scummy. Will be looking into this.

im not sheeping ludi. i have viewed your slot as scummy the entire game, and were i to join your wagon i would obviously explain the full extent of my scumread on you. regardless, as i said before, i find the chair wagon vastly superior.

The Chairwagon sucks because:
a.) He was not on the Empwagon and the scum are on the Empwagon
b.) I seriously don't even get what the case on him is supposed to be

The fact that SpyreX is voting him doesn't add to its credibility. Why are you opposed to a Sapo lynch?

-Ether

chairwagon summed up: interaction with empking/ut wagons day1, interaction with the empking wagon day2, attack on a townblock consisting of people he agreed were town, reaction to spyrex's prodding day1.

i am not opposed to a saporo lynch per se. i have him at null right now, and honestly have not reconsidered my read on him today. i suppose i will do that shortly. regardless, i am way more into a chair lynch than anything else.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Theres no point in arguing about this now. Lets move on and lynch Chair please.

I honestly shouldn't even need to explain why this is scummy.

i will anyway. We have a week until deadline, or something like that. There are several active wagons (you, us, sapo, zepher are all possible lynches for today). Why would we stop arguing and discussing when we still have so much time left in the day and there are so many possibilities?

i was attempting to steer conversation between my two top town reads away from discussion about our vig. and i am obviously not insisting that we reach a lynch immediately.

assuming that this is directed at me - the issue is that I have a town motivation for this as well. I had reason to believe that empking could have been town, which i've explained - however, I didn't have an explicit town read on him. I thought it would be fine to lynch someone else and give him a second chance, but I didn't have any reason not to lynch him either seeing as he was, of course, likely to be scum.

this still doesnt fly. empking was basically mod confirmed not vig.

"vote town, fos buddy" is well and good, but only if the voter/foser in question has flipped. You can't use it to determine that person's alignment. Why? Well, simple. Town members don't know other peoples' alignments. So it's completely possible - in fact, it's bound to happen to some town members at some points in the game - that they will vote someone who is town and fos someone who is scum. If there's a deceased scum who happened to vote one person and fos another, it's a perfectly reasonable tell to use - but it can't be used to discern MY alignment.

yes it can.

Actually, I did very little in the way of attacking the block itself relatively to attacking SpyreX. If spyrex had explained why each of the people in the block were town with reasonable explanations, I wouldn't have found it scummy of spyrex.

Ythan, I understand why he's on there. Spyrex, it makes sense to put oneself on there. Hiraki, I also understand. But knight, t-bone and kanye? I can understand townreads on these people - but it seems like spyrex has ridiculously strong townreads on them for this point in the game. Especially t-bone and kanye. I also just kind of don't like the proposition of a 6-person voting block when: A, there are plenty of people that still have barely posted; B, it's only a 17-person game and 6 people is 2/3 of a lynch wagon; and C, there's no town reason to have such damn strong town reads on these people.

Just a reminder, heres your original attack on the town block. oh.... thats weird. it looks like youre attacking the block to me??

I'm going to have to keep disagreeing with you on this Idher, I am convinced that the majority of scum were in the group of people who were neither on the wagon nor tried to stop it. Also, I am really not seeing anything that makes saporo a better lynch than chair or zepher.

Why do you continue to assert this even after it's been explained that the scum

had

to have the wagon go through that day?

Because town was more than happy to oblige them and push it through.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i think a sapo lynch isn't bad, but i would still much rather a chair lynch. i think our accusations have solid ground and i think it would tell us a lot more than a sapo lynch would. also v/la is no reason to hold off on a wagon when we have this much back and forth established already.

[kanyeknowsbest]

note: i explained why i moved our vote (kanye wagon stalling, no one voting you, idher's reasoning makes sense). To criticize me for not mentioning it in a specific line of my post, especially considering that that line began with "by the way" implying it was unrelated to my vote is reaching.

If you had, idk, said "Chair is sheeping Îdher" and criticized me for that, then sure, that'd be a justifiable attack. But attacking me for what you attacked me for is not. It's plain reaching.

-implosion

i love it every single time chair dismisses and sidesteps valid points and claims "youre not allowed to do that or use that reasoning."

GUYS I REALLY WANT TO LYNCH CHAIR

[kanyeknowsbest]

Reck sent prods this afternoon.

[kanyeknowsbest]

imho youre really reachin here spy. idher is town. and theres definitely scum on the wagon (chair) but i doubt its bookied. if theres a bookie shot in play today then its on me given how quickly i got halfway to lynch, but i doubt even that given how little effort went into keeping the wagon alive. zepher wagon was mega lazy too, and sapo took too long for me to believe it was bookie influenced.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I don't like Spyrex trying to push people back on the Chair wagon it feels a little bit like a booky.

Also, Amrun's father had a heart attack recently so she said her commitment to MafiaScum would be spotty at best.

no way chair is bookied. the resistance to his wagon leads me to believe there is not a heavy scum presence on it. also if spyscum had him bookied, smart scum would have abandoned this wagon long ago. its suicide for scum to push a bookied target this hard.

So, what is this mythical setup where a.) I'm scum and b.) I'm going to lock and load on you without a bookie and c.) I'd be overruled by teammates?

It's called pushing a mislynch. There's no rule that the bookie, if 2+-shot, has to target someone every night. I don't even know what you mean by being overruled by teammates.

there is absolutely zero reason for scum to push a mislynch on you so hard, when there was far more support for sapo or zephyr. assume that spyrex and i are both scum: why the hell would we choose you to target when there has been little suspicion cast in your direction aside from our own? why not pick someone that others have expressed at least minimal suspicion in?

[kanyeknowsbest]

As for the point about ending the night early, it may bear some weight, but assuming that night ending early = no outstanding actions is in essence an attempt to outguess the mod. He said that the reason would be that he wasn't going to be here, so there's no reason that he wouldn't assume action not received yet = no action.

yes but when the mod says you have 72 hours to submit your night action, theres something very wrong when he arbitrarily cuts that time short before you have submitted your action. i do not believe that reck would do something like this.

@spyrex alright! im down.

unvote, vote: empking

Here's your scum with knowledge of the bookie shot.

@Kanye: The bookie shot was brought up that day as a legitimate concern. Why did you leave your fairly constant vote on Chair to vote this wagon, even with the potential for a bookie?

he was scum. the goal of the game is to lynch scum and there was no way in hell anyone was lynching chair over empking yesterday. yes, i initially resisted due to the threat of a bookie, but the lure of lynching scum was too strong. also you just called me scum for lynching scum, fyi.

[kanyeknowsbest]

thats why bussing is most commonly a supplementary read.

[kanyeknowsbest]

so you think that if i decided that you were scum purely because you were on the empking wagon and he flipped scum, that would be sufficient?

[kanyeknowsbest]

that quote is in response to oversouls argument re: bussing. fyi. also one dead scum is as good as another dead scum. empking was conf scum and chair was not getting lynched yesterday. i will emphatically say that empking was a better lynch yesterday than chair due to its viability. and if i didnt REALLY think chair was scum i would not be putting this much effort into pushing his wagon. im more certain now than ever that hes scum due to the resistance his wagon is getting.

[kanyeknowsbest]

conf scum vs. top suspect. ill take the conf scum please. also my only other supporter for chair wagon was dead set on empking and i was less certain about chair at that point in time.

[kanyeknowsbest]

btw from my pov chair is conf scum now. if he was town then scum would have made excuses to get on the wagon by now as a town flipped chair would be disastrous for spy and i as the primary proponents of that wagon. hell, if they have more it would set up a bookie shot perfectly too.

[kanyeknowsbest]

As for the town intent I found, it exists mostly in the way Chair goes about attacking SpyreX even when no one else will consider the lynch. Scum would have moved on to an easier target to get a mislynch, so I feel like regardless of how you feel about SpyreX's alignment, the way Chair goes about pushing for Spy-kun's death is town.

except he never pushed a spyrex wagon and he did push a kanye wagon. which he did give up on and moved to an easier target (your slot). also how does your logic not also apply to the chair wagon?

[kanyeknowsbest]

As for the town intent I found, it exists mostly in the way Chair goes about attacking SpyreX even when no one else will consider the lynch. Scum would have moved on to an easier target to get a mislynch, so I feel like regardless of how you feel about SpyreX's alignment, the way Chair goes about pushing for Spy-kun's death is town.

except he never pushed a spyrex wagon

and he did push a kanye wagon. which he did give up on and moved to an easier target (your slot). also how does your logic not also apply to the chair wagon?

USO DA.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... er_sort=Go
ctrl+f vote: spyrex

[kanyeknowsbest]

My frank guess if the scum have a bookie with more than one shot is that they would have saved the remaining shot(s) for later use. It was clear that Empking was a likely lynch with his unverified verifiable claim; today on the other hand has no really clear person who will be lynched. And there is no such thing as an "easy lynch." There's some MD article on that. Easy lynches are called that because they're scummy. If I were scum, I doubt I'd have bookied kanye. It just seems like with no real direction that today was necessarily going to go in, scum would be likely to save the shot for when there were fewer people remaining.

-implosion

Agree with this. I will be amazed if there is a bookie shot in play. If I had been bookied, as I pointed out earlier, the wagon on me at the start of the day would not have died so easily. Likewise, I already commented why I think none of the other wagons have bookie shots on them.

Replying to your other shit next lmao.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Did I already bring up the point about, why didn't the Vig kill Emp the first night?

Chair, for 1 I am scared of another possible bookie shot lying on Kanye's head because as he pointed out he was the next most scummy player to a couple of people D1/D2 and I figure scum would rather go for something easy rather than try and begin a whole fabrication against someone else.

I do not like the "supplemental" bs that Kanye pulled, that is true and I don't like his interactions with Ethos or Hiraki at all D1, but I *really* don't want another bookie double shot.

One little thing that has been bothering me though is his 430, more specifically in response to Idher's scumread on KoC when he stated he would have liked a Hiraki vote AND and KoC vote. Unless he didn't mean voting them at that point (when he said he wanted to).

After looking at this iso, I am more inclined to vote him.. especially as LLD turned Sapo's slot into a less suspicious one. :\ Tbh I wish I could have died N1 instead of Ethos, I'm not much help.

empking wasnt vigged night 1 because there is nothing in the op that says there cant be two vigs. its extremely unlikely, but if i were the vig i would have held my shot night 1 as well.

re: my 430 please elaborate because i am really not sure what you are referring to.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i said that in reference to voting people who self vote. and why would i not want clarification on reads, regardless of whether or not i agree with them? i was still forming many of my opinions at that point in time and was relatively null on koc.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Lolmoresupport? Well, first of all... is sapo really a mislynch? Was there really more support for a zepher wagon? Not really. I mean, I am one of the biggest wagons right now... anyway, I definitely indicated suspicion of both you and SpyreX before either of you indicated suspicion of me. You could just both be reactionarily attacking me, which turned into a lynch attempt because I/we are just right about our reads.

youre one of the biggest wagons now, but you werent until just recently.

kanye's lack of acknowledgement for the line of thought that pushing the Empking lynch was scummy, even though he's responded to arguments about that line of thought, is scummy

not sure what line youre talkin abt m8! also my opinion on the empking wagon is in no way conditional on my opinion of your alignment.

re: bussing is supplemental i guess our view of theory differ! idk, i am surprised this is such a hot subject. im not saying that you ignore relationships but if your only evidence against someone is "they were on the wagon that lynched scum" and you think thats valid then okay! imho there needs to be more to it than just that therefore making it a supplemental thing. weird. also im not really using circular logic anywhere chair its cute that youre trying to reduce things to something you can handwave away again though :)

premise 6) from 2), 4), and 5), scum had reason to want Empking dead ON DAY TWO and no later; town had no particular reason or necessity for that lynch to go through that day especially with a likely bookie.
conclusion 7) Scum were more likely to be on Empking's wagon than town because they had reason to lynch him THAT DAY and no other day.

and where your logic skips a step: for scum to be more likely to be on the wagon we need town to be avoiding the wagon necessitating their being on the wagon. if town are perfectly fine with going along with the lynch (which is true in my opinion) then scum have no need to be on the wagon.

SCUM ONLY NEED TO BE ON THE WAGON IF TOWN REFUSE TO GET ON IT.
TOWN DID NOT REFUSE TO GET ON THE WAGON.*
=> SCUM DO NOT NEED TO BE ON THE WAGON.

* now this is the operative part that is behind what we are arguing over. i believe my statement here holds true. i believe enough town was willing to be on this wagon that scum did not need to jump on the wagon asap. momentum on it was strong enough that it was able to coast into lynch town.

This. Is. Just. Freaking. Not. True. And it's irritating how (if you and spyrex are town which you aren't) you refuse to accept it. one dead scum is MUCH BETTER than another dead scum and an extra dead mason.

yes, if we had another confirmed scum you are right, they would have been a better lynch. BUT WE DID NOT HAVE ANOTHER CONFIRMED SCUM.



chair, you are convinced i am scum, but you are willing to vote lld. do you think she is bussing me?

[kanyeknowsbest]

BUT WE DID NOT HAVE ANOTHER CONFIRMED SCUM.

There was no logical certainty to Empking as scum. You gave some argument about the early day start or something. That was not conclusive. It could have been mod wifom. You're implying that he was confirmed scum. HE WAS, in NO way shape or form *CONFIRMED* scum.

LLD is dropping weak towntells as I said. She might be bussing you thinking that her slot was likely to be lynched. If she's bussing you, then well.. you're scum. You're a bigger suspect than her slot, so I'd rather lynch you.

Will respond to rest later, really freaking tired right now.

-implosion

you cant be serious. empking could have literally claimed scum and he would have been no more confirmed than he was before.

yes youd rather vote for me, you said that. but if lld is giving you town vibes now why are you willing to vote for her if you cant lynch me?

[kanyeknowsbest]

ah, but alas, he could never manage a wagon on you.......! oh.. he cant manage a wagon on me either? *sigh* i supoooooose hell just have to settle for sapor/lld. but hes not scum giving up scum, no sir! >:D

seriously, how is this town at all? this is fucking scum. hes scum.

[kanyeknowsbest]

You are a Mafia #-shot Bookie!

Your teammates are (PLAYERNAMES). Each night, you may select a player. If that player is lynched the next day, you may perform an extra kill in addition to your factional the following night. During the day, you have your voice and your vote only. You win when mafia is equal in number to town, or nothing can prevent the same.

~~~

Can the bookie double bookie someone on one particular day? Was this asked?

i read it as once per night he can select someone for the next day, presuming he still has shots. so only one.

[kanyeknowsbest]

each night implies once. to clarify.

[kanyeknowsbest]

v/la until thursday night

[kanyeknowsbest]

i got ambushed as soon as i got back in town. content tomorrow morning as soon as im sober~

obviously im still okay with chair lynch though.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'll selfhammer a couple hours before deadline if necessary to prevent a nolynch.

-implosion

scumposting.

[kanyeknowsbest]

why would townchair offer to hammer himself? from his perspective, nolynch is superior to lynching the only confirmed town in the game.

why would scumchair let everyone know when he would self hammer? to give a buddy a last chance to get the hammer on a scum wagon.

[kanyeknowsbest]

yo ludi, idher is still obvtown as fuck.

Yosarian2

(8): Lady Lambdadelta, mastin2,

Untrod Tripod

,

Chair

, SpyreX,

Empking

,

Hiraki

, MrZepher

Untrod Tripod

(9):

Chair

, mastin2,

T-Bone

,

Ethos

,

Hiraki

, Magister Ludi, MrZepher,

Yosarian2

, kunkstar7

Empking

(8): SpyreX, Magister Ludi,

T-Bone

, kanyeknowsbest,

Yosarian2

, Oversoul, Lady Lambdadelta,

Empking

Chair

(6): SpyreX, kanyeknowsbest, mastin2,

Yosarian2

, kunkstar7, LLD
Lady Lambdadelta (5): kunkstar7, Îdher, MrZepher,

Chair

, Oversoul

Other wagons of note
Ethos (5): kanyeknowsbest,

Untrod Tripod

,

Hiraki

, SpyreX, Mastin2
Empking (5): Îdher,

Ethos

, kunkstar7, Lady Lambdadelta,

Yosarian2

before we massclaim or anything like that, who'd like to analyze some wagons with me? id love to analyze some wagons :)

for instance that empking claim wagon. i think thats 100% town. kid claimed at L-4 and probably thought his team was about to bus him in short order. kunkstar is the only one here i have issues with calling town.
zepher still looks scum as hell here, and mastin doesnt look very good either. ill look at these wagons a little bit more, but i remembered there were some mastin posts i wanted to look into if chair flipped town.

p-edit: some people havent checked in yet today mastin, you cant say theres no cop evidence yet and regardless i would wait for everyone to check in as well. im rly uncomfortable with the way youre pushing ludi here.

[kanyeknowsbest]

thats quite the gambit. what happens if youre scum and ludi is bookied? that loses us the game.

[kanyeknowsbest]

if this is genuinely a gambit you are interested in pushing mastin, would you be willing to make yourself the lynch for today on the premise that we would lynch ludi tomorrow?

[kanyeknowsbest]

i assume it was fairly transparent but im still happy with your response. im not nearly as suspicious of a bookied ludi now. im definitely less willing to vote you now and im going to have to think things through. i definitely want everyone to check in today before we lynch though.

p-edit glad 2 have you back amrun

p-p-edit oversoul, you cited something as a town read and then imply that it makes ludi scummy. explain.

[kanyeknowsbest]

this is the kind of bookie nonsense i was worried about at the top of the page, and is why i asked mastin if he was willing to go first. i did not consider the fact that scum could have held their bookieshot today and use it tomorrow, however. this means that even if mastin is town and ludi is scum, lynching mastin today would allow scum to take advantage of this tomorrow. likewise, ludi town mastin scum could end us up with mastin bookied tomorrow. i do not believe that someone is bookied today, but locking in a lynch target for the next day allows scum to bookie for a win. we cannot rule out the possibility that scum still has a shot and that a gambit like this will lead to that.

i will vote who i think is scum today without the caveat of deciding my vote tomorrow ahead of time. mastin, i will happily hear a case on ludi and vote him should i believe he is scum.

[kanyeknowsbest]

heres the problem spyrex: why was chair so hard to lynch if the opposing wagon on scum got taken to L-1? it was clear that we were not budging and we sat with 3 on chair for a long time while sapo was L-1. i cant understand why scum would be that adamant about bussing instead of making up an excuse to get chair pushed through.

[kanyeknowsbest]

basically heres how i feel: ludi immediately went into dodge status as soon as mastin dropped that bomb. hes posted several times in other threads without a peep in here. as town i would expect at least some sort of off the cuff response, especially if ludi thought mastin is scum and with quotes like

Its been building. Don't be upset mastin. Your death is coming. It is assured.

immediately prior, it seems to me like he would want to use this chance to push support into a mastin lynch (mastin was willing to self vote even.) im still going to wait and see what he eventually comes to us with, but im going to be a lot less receptive than if he had responded promptly, even if it was a bare acknowledgment of the gambit mastin proposed.

i still dont know what the fuck about yesterday, and i intend to devote some more time to thinking about it. what you suggested is a good way to think about it and i will definitely consider that (idher is still obvtown, please dont try to pin it on idher.)

[kanyeknowsbest]

which is exactly why im reconsidering mastin and ludi so much.

[kanyeknowsbest]

something of interest to note: if you are town and ludi is town, there is literally zero reason for scum to have not jumped on this gambit. they could probably push ludi to an easy lynch today and quicklynch you tomorrow. im quickly starting to buy the idea that the two of you are opposite alignments.

what makes you think kunkstar/spyrex are opposite alignments? also im still not sold on zepher obvtown.

[kanyeknowsbest]

why cant they both be scum voting lld?

[kanyeknowsbest]

zepher already claimed. pick again lambda

[kanyeknowsbest]

vt

kunkstar next

[kanyeknowsbest]

yes it is obvious that he should not stump unless forced to. i dont think he implied anywhere that he was planning on stumping.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i cant help but notice there is no claim in that post.

[kanyeknowsbest]

this mistake will be the end of you......!

[kanyeknowsbest]

We are a vig. I did not want to claim and don't think it has served any purpose. To spite you all, I won't tell you how many shots I have.

We didn't shoot n1 because we wanted to make sure emp was lying. N2, we really thought Hiraki was a traitor.

My suspects better watch their backs.

Can't remember if kunkstar claimed.

Popcorn: kunkstar

If he has claimed, then Oversoul is all that's left I think.


KANYE KNOWSBEST WHY THE FUCK ARENT YOU VOTING

YOU TOO WHOMEVER ELSE ISNT VOTING

-Amrun

anyone who was paying attention knew you were the vig yesterday. the fact that you were alive still today has definitely affected my reads (anyone who wasnt convinced you were conftown is scum++++)

and im not voting because i was waiting for claims to finish.

vote magister ludi

[kanyeknowsbest]

Really, really town

04. Mastin2
09. SpyreX

Town

12.

Untrod Tripod

x
07.

Îdher

(Amrun + Ether hydra) x
05. Magister Ludi

Null

01. Lady Lambdadelta
02. MrZepher
03.

dramonic

06. kanyeknowsbest
13.

Chair

(implosion + Misder)
14.

T-Bone

x
15. Oversoul

Scum

16.

kunkstar7

17.

Yosarian2

08.

Hiraki

Really, really scum

10.

Ethos

(Slaxx + Regfan hydra)

Yosarian2

(8): Lady Lambdadelta, mastin2,

Untrod Tripod

,

Chair

, SpyreX,

Empking

,

Hiraki

, MrZepher

Untrod Tripod

(9):

Chair

, mastin2,

T-Bone

,

Ethos

,

Hiraki

, Magister Ludi, MrZepher,

Yosarian2

,

kunkstar7

Empking

(8): SpyreX, Magister Ludi,

T-Bone

, kanyeknowsbest,

Yosarian2

, Oversoul, Lady Lambdadelta,

Empking

Chair

(6): SpyreX, kanyeknowsbest, mastin2,

Yosarian2

,

kunkstar7

, LLD
Lady Lambdadelta (5):

kunkstar7

,

Îdher

, MrZepher,

Chair

, Oversoul

Other wagons of note
Ethos (5): kanyeknowsbest,

Untrod Tripod

,

Hiraki

, SpyreX, Mastin2
Empking (5):

Îdher

,

Ethos

,

kunkstar7

, Lady Lambdadelta,

Yosarian2

annnd i was waiting to post this. ludi not lookin too hot here. ive got more to say about that but ill save it til tomorrow.

[kanyeknowsbest]

1. hiraki was vigged. she was strongly opposed to empking lynch. she was obvtown to begin with.
2. scum who had picked up on this would have killed her last night in case she had more bullets
3. follows from number two. and while i can see not calling her obvtown, calling her scum is pretty scummy with the above taken into consideration.

your vca along with where you are located on empkings list along with your ignorance of idhers role are why youre "not looking too hot." also your reaction to mastins gambit and the reactions of my other scum choices to it enforce this.

[kanyeknowsbest]

im around but im in that marathon game. ill reply as i have opportunities.

[kanyeknowsbest]

1. well shes still alive. if prevailing opinion among the scum was idher vig then i see no reason she would not have been shot last night.
2. i think zepher is scum. i dont think that both you and mastin are scum.
3. i think they killed yos because he was pretty much universally agreed as obvtown. maybe they thought he was vig? maybe they didnt care?
4. i dont know how many shots the bookie has. im not experienced enough with setups to guess at what would make it balanced. i dont think you are bookied.

p-edit i originally thought it was a fairly scum free wagon. chair flip and the events of today have lead me to believe thats not the case. i still maintain it could have coasted in without too much scum interference

yes, my current lambda read is town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

what is your read on spyrex? also do you believe kunkstar's stump claim?

[kanyeknowsbest]

KKB, tell me if this makes sense to you (Or tell me why I am scum completely spinning nonsence)

Actually, with Idher as vig and no shot coming last night, I'm going to assume that the mafia have a rolecop in their possesion. A hidden three man mason group is very powerful, and combining that with a vig would about balance out a rolecop and a booker. There is clearly no cop, so there probably is no tailor.

Continuing, the mafia probably rolecop Idher as vig some point during the game, which is how they knew she was a vig (obviously), but also why they didn't kill her last night, I am going to speculate she is in fact a one shot vigilante. So with two people of known quantities being called town, they killed the person with the more accurate reads.

At the end of day yesterday, Idher was set on me, LLD/saporo being scum, and Yosarian was on Mr. Zepher and I think that may be it.
Thus, the killed Yosarian, but also why no one else picked up on suspecting Idher with me, they knew for sure that when she claimed Vig everyone suspecting her would be seen as scum.

hmmmm...

this is something i didnt consider.

unvote

i admit that there is the possibility that you are town and mastin in scum, so what might actually be a better choice is this:

i also believe kunkstars claim. further, i went into today thinking one of kunkstar and zepher is scum. there is no reason to force ourselves down the mastin gambit road.

vote misterzepher

[kanyeknowsbest]

One sec:

Why was it obvious Idher was the vig? (I actually thought it was you KKB until you claimed).

If I remember correctly Idher was the one that said Hiraki was a terrible vig shot out the gates.

If it weren't for her being the last one there's no way I'd have bought that being vig.

idher was as adamant about hiraki scum as i was on d1. d2 i pulled back from hirakiscum while she remained strong on him and there is no way i would have let empking lynch go through if i had a bullet in the chamber for him. the fact that it was obvious (to me) that she was vig was why i was trying to get the two of you to stop arguing about vigs yesterday.

[kanyeknowsbest]

spyrex, what are you thoughts on zepher.

[kanyeknowsbest]

actually, spyrex, who do you think is scum at this point?

[kanyeknowsbest]

yeah, oversoul is definitely town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

spy, do you think that empking stacked all his scum buddies into the middle of his reads? (see: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3299028)

[kanyeknowsbest]

hey ludi. do you think mastin is scum. if so how strongly do you believe that?

[kanyeknowsbest]

hey zepher i want current reads from you asap. doesnt need to be detailed tho that would be extra nice. thanks :)

[kanyeknowsbest]

you too lambda.

[kanyeknowsbest]

And basically confirming night kills and vig shots looks bad.

what?

[kanyeknowsbest]

help i cant sleep also i remembered i need to do this

JUST IN CASE

unvote

[kanyeknowsbest]

give us your reads please lambda!!! THANK YOU

[kanyeknowsbest]

whats your read on spyrex? who do you think is more likely to be scum between ludi and mastin? do you believe kunk's claim?

[kanyeknowsbest]

given the choice between lynching zepher and ludi today, who would you choose?

[kanyeknowsbest]

dont worry kunkster, im makin conclusions.

scum distancing from bookied target after bookie has been established: "dont lynch hes bookied"
not scum distancing from bookied target after bookie has been established: "i dont think hes scum"
zephyr gets town points from me as he wanted to give empking the benefit of the doubt. youll recall this is also one of the tells that got me to stop thinking hiraki was scum.

similarly on the empking wagon, mastin preferred instead to vote me because of kanye vs chair.

people who were immediately on the empking lynch? spyrex and koc. right out the gate. the rest of his posting for that day is pretty fluff. also he notes that whoever comes in to quickhammer empking is scum. saporo does this and he doesnt mention it the next day. while im talking about koc, kid was way eager to back me up on the yosarian "scum slip" thing. the way he backed off of it was a little disconcerting too.

town

amrun - conftown

kunkstar - i dont think he lying. he can stump if we get to mylo if we doubt the validity of his claim later.

oversoul - he

believed

i was scum as hard as he could after the chair lynch until some point today. it (unfortunately) showed in his reactions to me elsewhere but thats.. well.

zepher - if ludi and zepher are scum then he has been bussing him since he replaced in. i doubt that. also his reaction to empking wagon. pretty shitty hes town but whatevs.

mastin - either town or a mega scum gambit. im inclined to believe town as it makes more sense despite the amount of town wagons hes been on and ythans role fishing d1.

scum

spyrex - remember near the end of d3 when things were winding up and it looked pretty imminent that chair was getting lynched? remember that weird ass little "oh my god youre so town or a mafia genius" spiel spy threw at oversoul? that shit did not feel right. it felt like he was trying to cuddle up to newbie town to score townpoints with said town. man, even now i really want spychan to be town, but i just cant believe it now. every setup i can imagine being viable for where we are in this gamestate revolves around spyrex being scum, and it is just backed up by several other tiny little things in his play that make sense when you say, "oh, spyrex isnt town at all. hes scum."

Why was it obvious Idher was the vig? (I actually thought it was you KKB until you claimed).

if spyrex is scum and this statement is true, then i am alive because they did not think i would shoot scum. i indicated zepher/kunkstar as my secondary scum targets after chair. i indicated spyrex as strong town, mastin and ludi as leaning town and lld as null.

ludi - consider the shit i wrote about koc above and that your interactions with mastin are just so scummy. ive gone back and forth on this a lot in my head, but considering spyscum and the way he was convinced koc was town for little reason (i never really understood that town read) and the fact that you say you think mastin is scum but you talk to him like hes town just makes it clear that you are scum scum scum. thats the big clincher for me btw. you believe (or know as the case may be) hes town, but say you think hes scum and call him scum.

lambda - this is mainly poe. if im right about the scum team then she is willing to bus ludi going so far as preferring ludi to zephyr (who i contest is the scum mislynch of choice today.) similarly, spyrex opened the day prepared to bus her.


so basically, heres what i think: mastin is either town with spy/ludi/lambda, or mastin is scum gambitting for town points and a free bookie shot with spy/ludi/mastin

i think spy/ludi/lambda is the more likely situation given that these theories place 5 town on lld's L-1 wagon. it would have been too easy for scum to have a reason to make that hammer if she was town, and the chair wagon was far from certain at that point.

so the question then is who do i wish to see lynched? spy is the easy choice given a large amount of my thinking relies on him being scum. but i still have to consider how convinced i was that he was town until the end of d3, and if by some miracle the other flips we get somehow turn this read around i would rather he still be alive tomorrow to decide for sure then. especially when i consider that i feel a ludi flip would inform this strongly. ludi is the other option, but the problem here is the threat of mastin being scum. i dont think mastin is a good choice.

speaking of a ludi lynch, hey mastin, i agree with you ludi needs to die. i think youre town and youre bein legit here, but you see, im terrified of that bookie (shakin in my fuckin boots.) that tiny chance that youre scum with a bookie shot locked and loaded. so lets not lynch him today. instead lets vig him. idher, youre okay with lynching ludi, can we vig him instead? we get virtually the same effect as lynching him but we remove a dangerous possibility.


~in conclusion~
i think that the best and safest possible play for us today in terms of gathering information is a lambda lynch with a ludi vig. there is zero doubt in my mind that at least one of them is scum.

vote lambadelta

[kanyeknowsbest]

actually, fuck it. im really not entirely convinced about a lambda lynch myself and i think its very unlikely mastin is scum gambitting with a bookie shot.

unvote vote ludi

shoot who you will idher. ill reassess my thoughts on you and elaborate tomorrow lambda.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ludi is def L-1. mastin, thoughts on lynch lambda vig ludi?

[kanyeknowsbest]

i think ludi mastin is a very unlikely scum team. the only reasons for his gambit in that scenario i can imagine are a bookie shot or hoping to get mega town points by lynching scum.

basically my problem is this: i think ludi scum is extremely likely. i think mastin town is extremely unlikely. the only way, then that you can remain town in my eyes is with lambda/zepher team as the remaining pair. it is this reasoning that has led me to desire lambda lynch ludi vig. i think these are two key flips that would make the game a lot easier to figure out tomorrow.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ebwop: mastin town is extremely *likely*

[kanyeknowsbest]

oversoul - he

believed

i was scum as hard as he could after the chair lynch until some point today. it (unfortunately) showed in his reactions to me elsewhere but thats.. well.

hes still town despite his terrible decisions since i voted lambda.

[kanyeknowsbest]

man, if he were scum though, that would make this shit a lot easier.

[kanyeknowsbest]

(Also, isn't my new avvy CYUTE~?)

prefer the old one tbqh. this ones a little too generic anime!

anyways

unvote.

i think my bookie fear have been squelched considering ludi hasnt been hammered yet. im going to reread some things and see if im missing anything. im fairly convinced one of ludi and mastin is scum but mastins gambit just doesnt make any sense if hes scum and ludi isnt bookied. and yeah ludi, my zepher town read is pretty flimsy and very circumstantial. a lot of my reasoning is strung out on some assumptions and i may not have given enough thought to their converses.

[kanyeknowsbest]

oversoul - he

believed

i was scum as hard as he could after the chair lynch until some point today. it (unfortunately) showed in his reactions to me elsewhere but thats.. well.

town. i dont think that read will change unless he literally claims scum.

[kanyeknowsbest]

yeah im happy with lambda lynch actually. i just dont believe that the wagon on her would have stalled at L-1 for so long if she was town. her posting between replacing in and the chair flip was pretty town, but im not seeing that same shining town today. add in a healthy dose of gut, her play towards oversoul and saporo's play... i think there is a very likely chance of lambdascum.

vote lambda

[kanyeknowsbest]

vote ludi

if youre not convinced recall that spyrex has the opportunity to hammer ludi yesterday. lets wrap this up fellas.

[kanyeknowsbest]

thanks mastin, thats exactly how i would have done it <3

[kanyeknowsbest]

also id save stumping til tomorrow

[kanyeknowsbest]

really doesnt matter though, lynched scum is lynched scum and thats gameover

[kanyeknowsbest]

actually yeah, youre right. stump to be safe

[kanyeknowsbest]

it probably causes a vote reset.

vote ludi

[kanyeknowsbest]

now we wait til reck gets back monday zzz

[kanyeknowsbest]

if mastin is bookie he blew his second shot on you yesterday and we can lynch accordingly tomorrow.

[kanyeknowsbest]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p3305299 this could have been a hammer vote.

[kanyeknowsbest]

im sorry ludi, but there is too much linking you and spyrex together. there was not going to be any other lynch today no matter how long we gave it.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Why the hell would LLD traitor scum try to restart my wagon after it was down to two people and oversoul had jumped off?

if mastin is bookie he blew his second shot on you yesterday and we can lynch accordingly tomorrow.

and i think its very unlikely mastin is scum gambitting with a bookie shot.

Whatup kanye?

i dont see the problem?

[kanyeknowsbest]

ludi who do you think is more likely scum, mastin or zepher?

[kanyeknowsbest]

ludi if you are town then oversoul is dead tonight and i have to decide between zepher and mastin tomorrow. if you are town then it is in your best interest with leaving me a case on whoever you think is more likely scum. please read back over the two of them and let me know which of the two is scum and why. if you are scum, however, then obviously dont bother - it wont affect whether or not you are lynched today.

[kanyeknowsbest]

ludi if you are town then oversoul is dead tonight and i have to decide between zepher and mastin tomorrow. if you are town then it is in your best interest with leaving me a case on whoever you think is more likely scum. please read back over the two of them and let me know which of the two is scum and why. if you are scum, however, then obviously dont bother - it wont affect whether or not you are lynched today.

ludi i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and holding off my vote on you, but im still going to vote you and i really doubt mastin is changing his mind. if zepher sticks to his guns you are lynched.

[kanyeknowsbest]

yep.

[kanyeknowsbest]

still disappointed you guys didnt just lynch mastin...

[kanyeknowsbest]

he was already confirmed town by zepher voting oversoul

[kanyeknowsbest]

it is true, however, that oversoul did not realize the impications of that.

[kanyeknowsbest]

fyi mastin your whole pariah complex d6 was infuriating and no one really cared about it but you. so what if you forced the ludi mislynch as hard as you could, move on and lynch the next scum without making a big ass production about it man.

[kanyeknowsbest]

the moment that zepher voted you and mastin did not hammer, mastin was confirmed town and zepher was confirmed scum (to you.)

[kanyeknowsbest]

yeah your d3 play was really good lambda. i was convinced you were town until some point in d4.

also i believe spryex said that zepher still had an unused shot, so not putting it on ludi at that that point was very...... wasteful.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Town was ONLY saved by Idher's awesome play as the vig.

i disagree. it helped a bunch but i think spyrex could have been lynched even if he hadnt been vigged. i was pretty sure idher was going to shoot him but i was prepared to tunnel the shit out of him d5 if he hadnt been shot. town still had a solid chance once we lynched lld and it would have come down to whether we could convince mastin to let ludi live another day or not (assuming both were alive in that scenario.)

regardless im glad the you shot spy.. i actually expected him to be shot n3 in all honesty !!!

also would love to hear the hiraki conspiracy theory.

[kanyeknowsbest]

also it broke my heart when i realized u were most likely scum spy... it was such great fun lynching all hydras with you~

[kanyeknowsbest]

did the scum/mason qts ever get posted?