Mini 280 - Game Over

[KingPin]

Ooh, my first random vote! (Assuming it was random.)

So, was it random?

No vote, yet.

[KingPin]

Vote: Jaguar

I've seen him on since the day began and I am keen to vote the silent ones before voting on the 'bandwagon-o-the-day.'

FOS: Fiasco and LML

Fiasco is way too defensive. He is responding to every little argument. This could mean two things. One: that he is in-experienced and just over eager to play the game. Two: that he is scum and trying to point out every possible fallacy in any and all arguments.

LML, for his blantant, I'll vote for scum 'with or without a reason' to suggest why he is scum.

KingPin

[KingPin]

UnVote

I clearly stated that I would vote for the silent ones. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't. Frankly when I see your name at the bottom of the page, indicating you are online, and then you do not make a response, if only to say "hello and I think so-and-so is acting suspicious," then I'll vote for you.

Now, since there hasn't been a peep out of Passdog I'll

Vote: Passdog

.

Regardless of your views towards voting the silent ones, you'll have to admit that it does force them into being active.

I still hold my

FOS's

for LML and Fiasco, good lord they both rub me the wrong way.

[KingPin]

LML,

I agree that the 'bandwagon' for Fiasco has stalled and with your idea that scum is either not willing to act on it or already on it.

I think there is probably one Scum member on that wagon. I believe that there is a group of 3 scum and 1 SK (historically a normal setup).

The defensive actions by Fiasco are somewhat to be expected, as a newbie. Though, I remember a time when I was fairly new and got called out and strung up for being overly defensive.

[KingPin]

UnVote

Nice to have you with us, Passdog.

Speaking of Defensive!

FOS: Vikingfan

[KingPin]

LML is setting off more alarms than before....

I agree, but maybe for a different reason.

That was proclaimed by Pie is Good, and I'm honored that you hold me to that. I'll make sure to try to live up to my expectations.

Does anyone else think He is trying to improve his credibility without any proof?

And I'm good at finding these early, but I'm much worse as the game goes on. Ask Mathcam.

Surely you see it now!

I am not convinced at his abilities, but I am convinced that he is relying on previous games to prove that he is not scum in this game. To me it sounds more Scummy than anyother person right now. Granted there have been numerous people on that have been entirely too defensive, however, I think I might also be if I were being attacked with little or no information to suggest otherwise.

Call me silly, but LML is fighting too hard for a lynch on his gut alone and justifying it by suggesting his mafia-god-like ability.

Vote: LML

[KingPin]

Aelyn,

Thanks for your summary. I've been trying to go back and match it up with what was actually said and it looks like a fair assessment to me. Though, skewed to your thought process, it looks like a fair summary.

I am currently happy with my vote, for my stated reasons.

[KingPin]

Jaguar,

I was merely pointing out that the tone of the post from Vikingfan was defensive. Not so that it rose to the level of vote-worthy. Is there a mechanism for un-FOS’ing? And if by “pin on vikingfan” you mean that I am pointing out the obvious, then you are correct.

Vikingfan,

My distrust for LML comes from my view that he is trying to bolster his credibility through his tendencies in other games. By no stretch of the imagination are any of us confirmed in any way to the other townies here. It seems to me that to even suggest you are ‘not scum’ because of how you have performed in other games is scummy.

I do agree with some of LML’s analysis of the game and players. That being said, I do not trust the use of prior game outcomes to insinuate a similar circumstance in this game.

[KingPin]

Very, very interesting.

Two ‘cops’ that have both investigated the same person on night one. All things considered, Aelyn is now in a bigger predicament. Once a cop has declared you scum on D1 you are pretty much toast, IMO. However, when ANOTHER cop comes out and says exactly the opposite then the town is forced with a tough decision.

The town would be able to accredit at least one of these guys after a lynch. However, it takes a ballsy move to step up and call someone out on D1 as scum. But I agree that it is the right thing to do. OTOH, scum could easily come forward with a similar claim and declare someone as innocent, since they have an idea as who is scum with them… unless they are the SK. But this too would be pretty damned ballsy, since they are drawing focus to themselves.

Cautiously

UnVote

[KingPin]

I think the confusion between advocating for a lynch of a claimed cop on D1 and a, now very scummy acting, Fiasco is easily solved.

I've read, re-read, re-re-read and have come to the conclusion that:
1: I am never going to vote for a Claimed Cop on D1, without some hard-core evidence.
2: If we have 2 claimed cops that have investigated the same person with different results
3: We can identify, at least sanity, and the likelihood of mafia aliances, by lynching the investigated. Worst case senario - Aelyn is town, and both claimed cops are actually cops, with questionable sanity.
4: If anything, Fiasco is acting so scummy at the moment it is outstanding... but to get the information that the town needs, today we must lynch Aelyn.

Vote: Aelyn

[KingPin]

I say we take off and lynch LML from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

(Actually, no... having an unnightkillable townie wouldn't guarantee us a draw, and the whole story just isn't believable enough. But it's another option to think about.)

Fiasco, Here is my reason for thinking that you are acting scummy. Do you see where it says "lynch LML"? The "actually, no" part doesn't seem to support you not advocating this outcome. And as LML pointed out, you were/are trying to lynch a claimed cop!

In addition, when you suggest that it is odd for Aelyn to want to lynch a claimed power role, which player are you referring to? The last I remember, Aelyn was voting for you. You certainly have not claimed!

[KingPin]

Mod,

Can we get an accurate vote count?

I am still of the opinion that to assess which cop to believe in the future, we need to know their sanity. Obviously there are questions as to sanity, since they each got a conflicting result on the same person.

I like my vote.

[KingPin]

LML, I agree that Fiasco is very, very scummy looking. (Fiasco, watch! I am about to explain why! and without quad-posting!)

Advocating the lynch of a claimed cop is very scummy. To do that based on PM's which we are not to 'quote' is also very scummy. If there is nothing in the PM to suggest sanity, why then shouldn't they expect to be sane. To be honest, it seems that to base your vote on LML on what the PM may or may not have said is completely without merit.

To address your position: We have no way of knowing Aelyn's claim is true! Just like we cannot be sure that either of our cops claims are true. To be sure that any of their claims are true we need to have a sample tested. If that sample will yeild a result that will ultimately help the town, then GOOD FOR THE TOWN.

However, there is no way that lynching a claimed cop will help the town today! If we lynch LML and it turns out he was the "sane" cop, then we have an insane cop running around and the good cop is long gone. Most likely we will not get a sanity result on a dead cop! Which will leave Aelyn's claim still up in the air.

Huge

FOS: Fiasco

[KingPin]

I still think Aelyn is the best play for today. Simply to help the town.

I do not think this town gets anywhere by lynching a claimed cop on day 1. And as of now, I cannot fault anyone for wanting to lynch someone that is advocating that! In my opinion, Fiasco is the most scummy from D1 activities and discussions. But his scumminess can be evaluated tonight by a cop, which LML has already said he would do.

[KingPin]

DG:

How are you going to use ANOTHER GAME to support your suspicions in this game? I care less about what happened in other games and more about what is happening in this game. I really, really think it is 1. poor play to assume that the mod is providing the EXACT same roles in his games and 2. completely silly to base your sanity on such information.

You are suggesting that you are insane, not through multiple night investigations that conflict with results posted. Instead, you suggest that you are insane based on a claim! Would you have changed your mind if LML hadn't come forward with his information? God I hope not! And without MORE information, it is hard for me to accept that just becuase you played in a game in the past with this same mod, that you think you are now insane!

[KingPin]

I am torn. I fully believe that to find out who the sane cop is we need to lynch someone that they both have investigated. Fiasco, it is funny that the one that got Aelyn guilty is trying to save him, while the one that got him innocent is trying to lynch him.

At the same time, I have a very suspicious of those who view what is best for the town as scummy. IMO, you are ignoring the certainty that we, the town, would gain by knowing which cop is sane. Fiasco, what do you think is best for the town? You are advocating the lynch of a claimed cop. I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR A CLIAMED COP ON D1 WITHOUT MORE INFORMATION. Since no other 'cop' has come forward with an investigation of LML to prove that he is scum, why should I follow you?

This discussion that some want sounds like an effort to get more townies to make claims! How many more claims do we need on D1? We have already gotten claims from, what may be, very powerful pro-town roles. Yet you want more.

I still believe that Aelyn is the best choice!

UnVote

Fiasco, you have exactly one day to make me believe that you are working for the best interest of the town. I will vote for you otherwise. Yes it is a subjective test. Subject to my interpretation. I do not believe you are advocating what is best and, in fact, are using your posts to muddle up the town. To distract from what is good for the town. Which is a very scummy thing to do.

FOS: Fiasco

As an aside:

So help me, if anyone begins to use game information other than the one we are in to support their claim or position, from now on I will vote you! Period. That is becoming my biggest complaint from this game. It is unreasonable, unlogical, and completely unconfirmable! The purpose of keeping these other games around is to provide a basis for new players to learn to play the game. If you use this information to base your opinion, you have missed the point of MAFIA, the game. If you think I am being unreasonable in this, fine. I got into this to play the game, not metagame OR try and outguess the mod. If that is how you play, then you are not using the reasoning skills that this game requires. Go learn them, then come back and apply to the game you are playing.

[KingPin]

The way I've understood the Night activities happening are like this:

All activities happen at the same exact instant. If more than 1 scum group targets the exact same person, and there is a doc to protect, then that person gets protected from all attacks (or healed as may be the case with Docs).

I've seen nights that this has actually happened. In my experience a Doc protects from all kills on a person at night, unless they are told specifically that they can only protect against one attempt per night. Again, in order for the game to make sense everything has to happen in the same instant.

Again, in this game, I don't know. But from my experience, this is how I look at it.

[KingPin]

Fiasco,

Congratulations you managed to go a whole R-day without asking us to lynch a claimed cop! However, I am still wondering how you are helping the town? Seriously, how has your play helped the town? I really don't like your assumptions as to how mafia or the sk will play tonight. It sounds to me like you are trying to coordinate the night activities before the day is over.

You said a few (read many) posts back that you don't think Aelyn is the best lynch today. I've stated my reasons why it would be beneficial for the town. Can you tell me why, without double/triple posting why draygn_mage is? I would like a solid post in support.

[KingPin]

Fiasco,

You do not necessarily need to be 'partnered' with anyone to be scum. You could easily be the SK. This wouldn't require you to have a partner.

The thing that gets me is, "Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch...." Are you kidding me? For the last few days you've tried so hard not to get him lynched and now, you are for his lynch? Let me get this straight, you will vote for Aelyn to save your life, even though you are so sure of his innocence?

You know what they say, Scum-play = Scum-play. I think that Aelyn may be innocent. I think that you have tried hard to save him, but not for the 'good' of the town. I think you did it so that you could gain a little more credibility. Not that I would have found you more credible. That is based on your play. Don't forget your obvious attempt to lynch a claimed cop on D1. If you take your play as a whole (defensiveness from the start, belief in a cliam from someone investigated with conflicting results, the attempted lynch of a claimed cop, and the okay I'll agree to lynch Aelyn.)

Am I missing anything?

[KingPin]

Why would a townie want to lynch a cliamed cop? Why would a townie not want the most information we can gather? Even if true, your actions have lead the town away from information that would have been helpful. If it was a sacrifice, I think it worked.

The idea that it was all based on LML's claim and actions, seems to be anti-town. I cannot reconcile your actions throughout the day. Yes, I may be wrong. You may be town, but your actions scream scum. I cannot ignore that. I did not think at the start that you were being ultra defensive, but looking at the day as a whole, it was. I contributed that to being a newb, I believe that was wrong.

Please discuss further.

[KingPin]

For the above stated reasons, by others and myself. I believe Fiasco to be scum.

Vote: Fiasco

I also agree that the cops should investigate whom they wish and not inform the town. Why give scum any more information than they already have on D1.

[KingPin]

The counter did say 3, but there were 4 people listed in the box next to it.

I still think you are scum!

[KingPin]

I believe I'm naive. Otherwise, the scum would have killed me instead of DG.

[KingPin]

Darn preview/submit screw up!

LML, what makes you think that scum know that you were naive and that DG wasn't?

[KingPin]

Really, it was just a question. To me, it seems as though your explanation may be right on, except that we would have to assume that Aelyn is also scum. Explanation of that statement:
1. If Aelyn is scum, and DG found him on N0 and you also did your investigation on N0 with a contradictory result, then scum may have exacted revenge or killed the competent cop. That would explain why DG got it last night.
2. We don't know that DG was sane/insane/naive/paraniod. What we do know is that he was a Cop.
3. We would have to assume that Aelyn was scum and DG was sane.

I agree, that lynching Aelyn is a good move for the town today. Obviously, if we did that and he turned up innocent, you would seriously be gone tomorrow. But the town needs to discuss this a little more, before we start voting.

[KingPin]

So far, I've not heard anyone say that Aelyn is not a good choice today. I think we are all in agreement then that Aelyn is a good choice.

I think that if Aelyn comes up as scum, that LML's claim is completely false. No sanity plea can save him. There is no way he could question his sanity, when we have a cop dead, with no information on his sanity. There is nothing to suggest that we had a sane and insane cop here. Though, it is not good to question the setup. I think we have enough information to move forward today. Aelyn will give the town needed information and will expose, what maybe, a gambit by a scum "cop."

Aelyn is the correct lynch at this point since the Cop got a scum result on him. We cannot question the Cop's sanity since there is nothing to suggest that he wasn't sane. In addition, more information will help the town. When we get a guilty result, we should go with it until proven otherwise. Which is where we were headed yesterday, when Fiasco jumped up and bit us in the ass.

[KingPin]

Mage,
I get why you are putting your vote on LML. I understand that you think his claim is complete crap. I also understand why you think that Aelyn is the best lynch today. But why not vote that way? I don’t think anyone would doubt your sincerity now that you’ve made it perfectly clear.

I am glad to hear from Aelyn and would like to hear more from him. I think it would be best if he elaborated on some of his suspicions. Though, at this point I still think he is the best choice for a lynch today.

Again, we had a Cop find him as guilty. He survived yesterday because we had a very misguided townie trying to advocate the lynch of a claimed cop. I know we cannot go back and change that, however, we can move forward today.

The problem is that both cops came out on D1. I would have felt a little better if both would not have stepped out as they had. But as it is, we can move forward with good information. Lynching someone that a cop said was guilty is a good thing. DG was a cop and found Aelyn as scum, or guilty as it were.

I’ll vote soon, but would like to hear more from Aelyn first, if at all.

[KingPin]

Norinel,

I get your numbers theory, but to me it just goes against my gut to lynch someone else.

Based on what we have right now, why couldn’t LML be the SK (if we are going to assume that his claim is crap)? I realize that his claim sounds more likely to be mafia, but who is to say that that’s right?

Who is to say that Aelyn is not mafia? With all the people to make a claim, why wouldn’t it be logical for scum to make the claim that Aelyn did?

If there is a chance for the SK to still win, why would the SK come forward and accept losing to help the town, which is against him also?

Trusting the SK to do the right thing suggests that the SK has given up on winning. It would take some luck to ensure that the SK hits the right person at night, and if he didn't then the town is screwed!

Mage,

Mass claim only on a town consensus, though it would probably help scum rather than town. IMHO.

[KingPin]

I have never had the SK come out and offer the town help. Call me skeptical of the whole thing!

I still don't like the idea of SK on the town's side, especially since he has his own win criteria. In addition, I'll agree with Viking that who knows that this guy is not the Scum posing as the SK.

To go with the thought that Aelyn=SK and is 'willing' to help the town win, I say that LML is the likely target right now. Reasoning: Aelyn is guilty (SK), DG found him guilty (sane cop), LML found him innocent. I think because of this that LML's claim is completely false. In my opinion, LML's claim is a gambit by scum to lynch the SK and kill off the cop all in one day/night. Then he could claim that he has found 'everyone' esle as innocent because he is naive (read scum lying).

Oh and Norinel, if you have a cop that says someone is guilty and you don't want to lynch them, it kind of makes you look scummy. Especially if that person just happens to claim to be the SK, a few posts after you and Viking ask for the SK to help, and turns out to be scum posing as the SK. It may just be one last brilliant chance for mafia to win, all organized in thread right under the town's nose.

[KingPin]

I do not believe Aelyn’s claim!

I am more than prepared to vote for Aelyn. I fully believe that Aelyn is scum, of the mafia variety.

Aelyn was on the verge of being lynched yesterday. He was only saved by the misguided Fiasco. We have one confirmed cop that got Aelyn as guilty. The other claimed, cop, got him as innocent. There are several claims which have struck me as odd the last day or so.

1. Norinel has advocated that the SK help the town.
2. Vikingfan immediately follows Norinel’s lead and asks for the SK to help.
3. Aelyn come out and pretty much claims to be the SK.
4. Passdog tries to confirm that Aelyn is the SK, with the “now that we know Aelyn is in fact” language from post 393.
5. Vikingfan puts the town on notice that if Aelyn is mafia claiming to be SK then the town is in bad shape. Post 395. If you look above that, I called this into question a full real day before.

Point fingers where ever you want. Aelyn is not the SK. Aelyn is night-kill immune, at least for one night. He did not die last night, and unless this town has a doc, he should have died. You want my help? I tend to believe that D_G and Passdog are his companions, but I cannot be sure. I’d like to believe that LML is telling the truth, but again, I cannot tell for sure.

Claim: KingPin is SK, A Priest that is searching for evil within the soles of our town. I killed SpeedyKQ, and last night tried to kill Aelyn, I was unsuccessful.

The reason I am coming out now is that I agree with Norinel, the town may not have a chance to lynch me tomorrow. I will die tonight, now that scum know who I am.

Vote: Aelyn

[KingPin]

OK. Obviously KingPin is mafia.

There is something wrong with your contention. I don't know how you may have known that Aelyn was 'in fact the SK' but it is only now clear that he was a SK, not

THE SK!!

I am a Serial Killer. I did not choose to kill anyone last night. I have already stated my actions on previous nights.

Why this is important: If there were 3 mafia, they would have won by now! The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that they do not out number the town. It is likely that they have been flying under the radar with only 2 members.

My PM from the Mod suggests that the town may not be told of my 'successful' night choice. I called BS yesterday thinking that there was a 3 member mafia and an SK. However, when it was revealed I knew that I'd be screwed today, but I am telling you that I am a SK!

I am still willing to help rid the town of mafia. I would have, if there had been more discussion yesterday, after I claimed.

[KingPin]

I agree and disagree with you, LML.

Vote draygn_mage

Because I know that I am an SK. Which means that there is something amiss in our setup. Without even considering that, I think that you are scum!

Again, I targeted Speedy on night 0, targeted Aelyn on night 1, targeted NO ONE on night 2.

My PM gives me the impression that I may or may not be successful, and that the town may or may not be told of that success or failure. I fully believe that the only reason that we are still here is because the mafia is less than 3 members. There is no other reason. If they were 3 members and there are 6 left alive, then they would win by default. The town would already be sunk!

[KingPin]

LML,

Where does it say "the SK"?

Our wonderful Mod was quoting Aelyn! You are FLAT WRONG!! You have misconstrued the quote from Aelyn as the Mod's own words. You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

If you'll notice when he announced the role, directely below, it says

Aelyn - Serial Killer - Lynched D2

To say otherwise would be improper! Your mis-quoting the Mod is noted! Especially since it helps scum!

The town has managed to find and lynch 1 opposing role, but how many are left?

I would switch my vote to you, but I think the town can choose which of you is scummier!! I think LML and d_m are MAFIA-SCUM! Especially since LML is misquoting the Mod to influence the voting of others. In addition, d_m didn't even consider the possibility of a limited mafia action.

[KingPin]

LML,
Why have you not addressed my questions/accusations from an earlier post?
Why are YOU now trying to railroad the town with my lynch?

He got caught in a gambit that may ultimately help the town win.

If you lynch me today, the town will lose. If you don't lynch me today I will kill either LML or d_m tonight, because they are both scum.

[KingPin]

UnVote

[KingPin]

Good game all!

I really thought that we, the mafia, could have won by not lynching anyone on that last day. But, oh well, at least we won.

I did make the mistake... not carefully reading the Rules on the first page.


Again, good game and thank you LyingBrian for modding.