Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[SensFan]

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

[SensFan]

Does anybody know MoS's stance on cults? Agent Smith comes to mind in this game...

Here you go.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian: Have you ever enforced this "lynch vanilla day one" strategy before? Could you show me where, if so.

(uses mafiascum search function)

Well, I mentioned it here, in this large game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2133515

...did you seriously just claim VT when you were nowhere near a lynch?

Did you really miss my long diatribe this game on why it's anti-town for any vanilla townie to ever claim vanilla, under almost any circumstances? And it's especially bad since you weren't in any imminent danger of being lynched?

Generally, once someone claims vanilla, the town pretty much has to either lynch them or vig them.

I then went on to explain the theory a lot more after that point in the game.

It also came up in Battle Mafia:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1846447

Yeah, I wasn't planning on quicklynching DT today either. But then he claimed vanilla for absolulty no reason. Lol.

Vote:DT Master

You could find a bunch more examples, if you look; sadly the old boards are down right now, but it's an opinion I've had for a long time. You can find stuff on the MD board about it as well.

[LlamaFluff]

"Let's move to another wagon for the sake of information" is pretty much the easiest way to guarantee that the wagon will lead to nothing.
"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

You miss the key one that quite a few people are thinking here "Lets vote someone else because I dont think he is scum".

Im not voting vezok, unless something beyond amazing happens, I really dont see me voting him at all today given how much backing this BS wagon is actually getting on him CLAIMING VT.

Love how Yos showing that he pushed for "kill the VT" shows that it normally ends up in a lynch of... VT

VT = town
PR = town

They count for the same amount of people numbers wise. If I was given the choice of lynching someone who was 80% likely to be VT, or running up someone else, im going to run up someone else EVERY time, because you lose by lynching town. Its damn sure worth the risk of *maybe* outting a PR for increasing chance of a scum lynch. If you figure the average (poorly designed even) game is 50% non-VT, I would in an instant try and get a better lynch then someone I was convinced was VT. Reading VT claims as true is something that really will screw scum over in the long run, and this one is more likely then not true.

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

[Yosarian2]

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

News flash: town only lynches correctly on day 1 about 30% of the time anyway. Some studies have actually shown town day 1 lynches to be less accurate then random, probably due to scum manipulation.

[Albert B. Rampage]

LlamaFluff makes a point but I like to policy lynch players for bad decisions even if it costs me a day. See my history with zwet or Mastin, for example.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

News flash: town only lynches correctly on day 1 about 30% of the time anyway. Some studies have actually shown town day 1 lynches to be less accurate then random, probably due to scum manipulation.

Those mislynches provide info for the town that we arent going to get if we just lynch vez for his claim.

@ABR - Only player acceptable for policy lynching is ani. Zewt is actually amazingly readable, mastin you just ignore everything he posts, much like Fate.

[creampuffeater]

Yay tons of posts and I am super busy.... Why did MoS force me into this? Well, looks like I will semi lurk like usual anyway.

I ALSO HAVE FINALS NEXT WEEK (AND AM GOING TO THE MAGIC PRERELEASE THIS WEEKEND) Expect posting from me to be low, but then again posting from me is usually low x_x

Can you explain your read on vezok then? You say that you dont believe him so you think that he is scum?

I know this is now outdated with the tons of new information, but originally my thoughts were as follow: 1. I have no reason to believe him in general, and this does not necessarily mean that he is not a VT either (and I think my view of number of VTs to Power is skewed, I have played mainly on MTGS for the last 2 years where your average game of 25 people has 5 VTs maximum) and 2. His claiming this early does not necessarily make him any more likely to be scum in my view. Basically my view is that I dont trust anything he says and that it will be shaped by later actions. In these later actions I am inclined to view him as townish, I understand his survivalist mentality, while I still think winning is the most important thing here, I do like staying alive longer... And also I rarely memorize win-cons word for word anyway, so that "slip" was actually a pretty bad reason to continue his wagon.

What I really did not like was ABR's initial attack on IS for "defending" Vezok and then his follow up with multiple scum groups. I know this has been said already, but defending Vezok from "slipping" does not all of a sudden make you a different factioned scum, also you claim

Defending vezok or chainsawing his attackers is inherently a scummy move. But, if vezok was on my team, I wouldn't defend him...

How are either of those positions inherently scummy? I have no problem with defending a player or looking at those on the wagon of somebody you dont think is scum. Beyond that, if you are on another scum team, wouldnt you want vezok dead? Yes a VT dead is not the greatest day, but atleast its an easy death that will not draw much suspicion from being part of a wagon on, and there still is the chance that he is actually a scum as you seem to think after his "slip", and typically scum of 1 team want the scum of the other team dead too...

Unvote Primate, Vote ABR

@Primate: No I did not notice Sheeps there, I hope he gets in, I always enjoy playing with him.

[Surye]

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.

• I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
  is
  an important number.
  
• I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
  
• I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
  
• The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
  
• Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

Thoughts?

[SensFan]

I'm not going to agree to a plan that involves a Cop claim on D2 of a Large game. Especially not when it also involves delaying the inevitable lynch of someone who has prematurely claimed Vanilla, and by all accounts is null at best even if he's telling the truth.

[LlamaFluff]

It would be a bad idea for a cop to investigate vez as opposed to trying to deduce his alignment by investigating others. Or just trying to investigate others not related to him and figure out what he is later.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Only an idiot of a cop would ever investigate vezok

[Zindaras]

-Yosarian: I think the Vez lynch is a bad lynch. I dislike the way he went from really wanting to lynch Vez to seemingly state that it wasn't going to happen.

I said a Vez quicklynch is very unlikely to happen. I mean, come on; we need 13 votes to lynch someone in this game, and this is mafiascum; you couldn't get 13 people here to agree the sky is blue without a month of debate first.

I never said that Vez isn't likely to get lynched. He certainly is likely to get lynched.

Yosarian: Have you ever enforced this "lynch vanilla day one" strategy before? Could you show me where, if so.

(uses mafiascum search function)

Well, I mentioned it here, in this large game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2133515

...did you seriously just claim VT when you were nowhere near a lynch?

Did you really miss my long diatribe this game on why it's anti-town for any vanilla townie to ever claim vanilla, under almost any circumstances? And it's especially bad since you weren't in any imminent danger of being lynched?

Generally, once someone claims vanilla, the town pretty much has to either lynch them or vig them.

I then went on to explain the theory a lot more after that point in the game.

It also came up in Battle Mafia:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1846447

Yeah, I wasn't planning on quicklynching DT today either. But then he claimed vanilla for absolulty no reason. Lol.

Vote:DT Master

You could find a bunch more examples, if you look; sadly the old boards are down right now, but it's an opinion I've had for a long time. You can find stuff on the MD board about it as well.

What troubles me about your entire argument is that it assumes that we can't do better than random today. The risk of running up a power role is always there, but Mafia isn't purely a game of numbers. If we'd just use the random number generator to decide everything, odds are we'd lose.

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

News flash: town only lynches correctly on day 1 about 30% of the time anyway. Some studies have actually shown town day 1 lynches to be less accurate then random, probably due to scum manipulation.

30% is certainly not worse than random. Also, the last time I did any research into this, Town did significantly better than random (30-40 game dataset). That was a long time ago, but it still stands (also, amusingly, I used that particular data as an argument to get scum lynched...on D1). I honestly find it difficult to believe that you'd basically play the mathematical game (and, to be honest, the math isn't really that much better).

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.

• I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
  is
  an important number.
  
• I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
  
• I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
  
• The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
  
• Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

Thoughts?

WIFOM does not exist.

Also, this post contradicts both with your earlier post and your still-present vote on Vez. You apparently find the wagon to be useless regarding information, yet you're still on it. Leading the Cop is also a no-no.

Feeling pretty good about my Surye vote right now.

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Really? Maybe it's just me, but I don't have my role PM word-for-word memorized. There's scum slips, and then there's paraphrasing.

To the people voting for Vezok for *this* reason: do you legitimately think this is a scum slip?

I definitely do. If he is townie, I want his clan lynched right after him. This means Internet Stranger, and who else is defending vezok for easy town points?

I know but one thing, and that's that vezok isn't a town power role, and that's enough for me to rip his flailing body apart today. This doesn't stop me from scumhunting different faction scum like Internet Stranger.

Only an idiot of a cop would ever investigate vezok

These are very bad posts. Chainlynching

and

leading the Cop? The first post reeks of scum wanting to set up tomorrow's lynch, while the second post reeks of scum remembering that he's not supposed to know Vez is town, wants Vez run up first and adding a reason as an afterthought.

FoS: Albert B. Rampage

[Zindaras]

-Yosarian: I think the Vez lynch is a bad lynch. I dislike the way he went from really wanting to lynch Vez to seemingly state that it wasn't going to happen.

I said a Vez quicklynch is very unlikely to happen. I mean, come on; we need 13 votes to lynch someone in this game, and this is mafiascum; you couldn't get 13 people here to agree the sky is blue without a month of debate first.

I never said that Vez isn't likely to get lynched. He certainly is likely to get lynched.

Blech, forgot to respond to this. I see what you mean.

[Zindaras]

Also,

confirmed

. >.>

[AGar]

I'm still waiting to hear why lynching claimed VTs improves the towns odds.

Do you disagree with the arguments that have been presented, or are you ignoring them? You refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Vezok

might

be scum, and you're attacking anyone who thinks otherwise.

unvote, vote: AGar

Lololololololol.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge the possibility. I'm saying it's highly unlikely, and I'm more apt to pursue other avenues today. Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1 without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action) for me to consider his lynch today, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

VOTE: Surye

Both of them are making very concentrated pushes on Vezok for the flimsiest of reasoning, and are ignoring pretty much everything else going on in the game. Oh wait, ABR took the time to attack someone attacking him for his bogus "win con" attack on Vezok.

[vezokpiraka]

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.

• I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
  is
  an important number.
  
• I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
  
• I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
  
• The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
  
• Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

Thoughts?

OH God. Directing the cop, setting up lynches, doesn't care about the wagon at all. Just wants my wagon to finish in a lynch.

unvote
vote Surye

@Yos: Scum now have better chances of killing a PR. So what? Mafia is first based on behavioral analysis, then night actions.

What do you think is better: In 3 man LyLo :

1

We have on doctor alive, one townie and one scum. YAY. One unconfirmed PR that does nothing.

2

We have one townie who is pretty much confirmed because of the way he played( lead the lynching wagons on scum, or something like that), one townie and one scum.

There is one confirmed and tow unconfirmed. Way better than case 1.

[Porochaz]

I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&NR=1

[Porochaz]

Jesus Christ are people just ignoring me in this game.

[Porochaz]

Quadruple post coming up guys.

"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

Why?

Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.

I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.

• I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
  is
  an important number.
  
• I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
  
• I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
  
• The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
  
• Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.

So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):

• Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
  
• Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
  
• If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
  
• If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.

Thoughts?

OH God. Directing the cop, setting up lynches, doesn't care about the wagon at all. Just wants my wagon to finish in a lynch.

unvote
vote Surye

@Yos: Scum now have better chances of killing a PR. So what? Mafia is first based on behavioral analysis, then night actions.

What do you think is better: In 3 man LyLo :

1

We have on doctor alive, one townie and one scum. YAY. One unconfirmed PR that does nothing.

2

We have one townie who is pretty much confirmed because of the way he played( lead the lynching wagons on scum, or something like that), one townie and one scum.

There is one confirmed and tow unconfirmed. Way better than case 1.

"Hey easy wagon, Im going to jump on you"

2 Is where I have the real problem though. You aren't going to be leading any lynching wagons on scum lets face it. Your going to fail. Also if we have one doctor alive, you and scum then we lose because scum kill the obv doc. Also I dont trust you to EVER

EVER

make the right decision in lylo. You make out that your gods gift to mafia when you blatantly proved that false in the first goddamn post of the game.

[Porochaz]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

In order to survive I have to kill all the scums so they can't kill me.
If I survive till the end the odds of town winning are bigger.

Call my surviving a second goal but nearly any role I would have I have to survive.

Im going back on what I just said to Zindy because this is stupid.

VEZOK PLEASE READ!!!

This is an imaginary set up.

There are 20 players. 4 scum and 4 power roles.

You claim VT post no 1.

There are now 19 unclaimed players. 4 scum, 4 power roles and 1 vanilla town.

Before it was 4/20 so with a vanilla town lynch they have a 4/15 chance of hitting a power role (- the 4 scum and one lynchee) thats a 26.6% of hitting a power role

Now it is a 4/19, another vt lynch they have a 4/14 chance of hitting a power role, that's 28.6%

and the percentages between the two keep getting greater as the game goes on. Its the same situation if a power role or scum is lynched (though not the same percentage)

Put it this way lets say in end game, its night. There is what is presumed to be a protective role left. There is you and there is one scum left. Scum know exactly who to kill to win. They know now to avoid you. As a vanilla town you want to be protective of your power roles. By claiming you are doing the exact opposite and actually damaging the towns chances of winning. Ok so you might be alive till endgame but you've lost.

One of the most important lessons that any player has to learn is that this is in a weird way a team game. Even if that means you have to die to win the game overall.

quote="Porochaz"]

Hi guys.

A few posts caught my attention.

LlamaFluff #78 - His response to DeathNote irritates me. Specifically, the quote "So you want a policy lynch of
vezok, but you want to draw it out?". First of all, that's REALLY obvious - he wants to lynch someone (for whatever
reason) but wants the town to have the chance to discuss for future days. Regardless of DeathNote's alignment, that
logic makes perfect sense. LlamaFluff's response, to that, (and his post #78 in general) seems like an attempt to
ask leading questions to accuse people of scum. This is not inherently scummy, if your leading questions make sense,
but for a player as experienced as Llama to target DeathNote so explicitly with that statement (one that makes no
sense from a mafia theory perspective) just screams of a good player trying to exert his influence to get what he
wants, and in this case, Llama is scum and is frivously pushing for any lynch he can find. (I make no statement on
DN's alignment, but

FOS: LlamaFluff

) .. that was originally a vote, but then I read Llama #97 and so I feel
a bit better about this.

If you are going to lynch a player because of only one thing everyone will come and say: " Vezok is vanilla. Let's lynch him. Vote him." You won't get any wagon analysis or stuff like that. Basically you wasted a day , but not. DN wants to drag the day. What good can it come for dragging the day? Nobody will come with other reasons, townies will get bored and stuff like that.

Also everyone knows that short days favor scum and not town. If he comes here and says let's make a loooooonnnngg day people will think that is the town mentality and won't try to lynch him.

Get my point?

Actually, can I put a stop to this "If you lynch vezok, you get no wagon analysis" bullcrap. Because 1. you do. and 2. Wagon analysis isn't everything and actually we have already gotten quite a lot of information about players today.

In fact this post is really scummy, and has actually swung you to the other side of my scumometer. We can still and have done got useful information today even if we lynch you. People make stupid mistakes all the time and peoples reactions to this wagon or reactions to reactions. Its not just you we are analysing here and I have at least a vague view on pretty much all the players who have posted beyond confirmation.

Also apart from your last paragraph being A. From that useless book "The Big Ol' Book of Scum" B. being WIFOMilicious .it's again something that just came out a cows arse. I have no reason to believe the length of days affects anything, especially day 1 and I would invite you to prove me wrong.[/quote]

I want a response to BOTH of these.

[Zindaras]

OH God. Directing the cop, setting up lynches, doesn't care about the wagon at all. Just wants my wagon to finish in a lynch.

unvote
vote Surye

@Yos: Scum now have better chances of killing a PR. So what? Mafia is first based on behavioral analysis, then night actions.

What do you think is better: In 3 man LyLo :

1

We have on doctor alive, one townie and one scum. YAY. One unconfirmed PR that does nothing.

2

We have one townie who is pretty much confirmed because of the way he played( lead the lynching wagons on scum, or something like that), one townie and one scum.

There is one confirmed and tow unconfirmed. Way better than case 1.

I'd rather have the doc survive until endgame because he's far more likely to to do something useful in between. If LyLo comes a day later because the doc protected a kill, that's a free lynch.

And, for the rest, you're free to lead wagons on scum. But you're not doing that. Most of your play so far has been based on OMGUS.

[BrianMcQueso]

Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1

without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action)

for me to consider his lynch today

, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

So, you came into this game knowing you wouldn't lynch Vezok? And there's no way we can convince you otherwise? You're admitting personal bias, and you're saying the only thing to convince you otherwise is with a night action. Which is funny, considering that most people seem to be saying that actually using investigations on Vezok would be a terrible idea.

Your actions are not helping the town.

[DeathNote]

@Llama- at what point would you be willing to lynch Vez then? You can't allow someone to get to lylo just because they claimed VT right off. That would make an easy game for scum.

[Porochaz]

mod can we get a round of prods?