Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Primate]

Holy crap.

/confirm.

I'll claim already. Guess what?

Miller?

He's Vezok.

/Confirm.

PPE: Yup, that's Vezok, claimin for no reason early. One of the more thought-inspiring metas.

[Primate]

Eh. Slightly better at least. I'm VT, of course. I think I was VT in my last 6 games? on MS.

Rolecop in Wrestlemania. Is that the 7th?

[Primate]

Did Vez seriously just claim VT in pregame?

Can we speedlynch him before the game starts?

Even if Vez is power he's normally claimed it by d2. Claiming ludicrously early is entirely in-style for vezok as town. I asked at last game (lost) I played with someone who knows him better than i do and the way you know he's scum is becuase as scum he claims something ludicrous if he's scum. No problems w/vezok.

[Primate]

(shrug) I don't really care all that much about meta in cases of extreme anti-town behavior. Lynching people who claim VT just improves the town's odds of wining.

But he only claims VT as town. How much does lynching people who are town increase the towns chance of winning?

[Primate]

*VT as VT (I'm not implying he's falseclaiming)

[Primate]

(shrug) I don't really care all that much about meta in cases of extreme anti-town behavior. Lynching people who claim VT just improves the town's odds of wining.

But he only claims VT as town.

...

I really dislike trusting any kind of meta that's that specific; if he knows people think that, then he has every reason to claim VT as scum.

My normal response to people who have a habit of claiming VT on day 1 is "Lynch them every time they do until they stop doing it."

Are there that many players that claim VT d1 under no pressure? I haven't seen it enough to develop a normal response to it.

I appreciate your point, but I'm not going to move against a guy for something he normally does as town until I see some indication that he could be scum. Yes, he could be abusing his own meta, but it's unlikely, and until we see some slight indication that he is scum, I'm taking it at face value.

I appreciate meta lynches have their place despite the fact I personally don't like them and this isn't the place for them. The argument you espoused earlier about lynching VT's increasing the towns chance of winning, to mind, sounds like bollocks in this context. What is your rationale for that position?

[Primate]

I did actually think you were advocating a lynch of vezok straightaway regardless of whether you thought he was scum or town, yos. I got no objections to your position as clarified.

And yes, site playstyles can be changed, but generally they aren't, that's why they are recognizable playstyles. I'm open to thinking he's scum and trying to fake it, but I'm going to assume normal behaviour until I see something to suggest it isn't.

[Primate]

@CPE: Yeah, hi, nice to see you again. You see that Alphainsidious is on the replacement list?

Yos never advocated a speedlynch. I called it a policy lynch because the reasoning for lynching him is detached from the likelihood of him being scum, I get why Yos wants to make the distinction though, strategic lynches is a better term for what he's doing. Yos's position seems based on a very high opinion of power roles relevance in a game. Thinking about it, he's probably right to a certain degree. If, after a wagon, a scummy guy claims vanilla then I would probably be on board. Issue is in a situation like this where the lynch wagon is artificial then we lose a whole bunch of wagonning info and if you get in the mindset that D1 we're gonna lynch vezok you end up with a very unproductive D1 that hurts power role choices and lynch choices from here on in.

*Anyway*

Agar's probably town. I think he's wrong about Vezok not being able to manipulate his scum meta though. It's a little bit bewildering that some people in that other game he linked have such an incredibly low opinion of a player. Seriously, he has to be aware of the fact he claims early and it's plausible that he will get ahead of that with a VT claim. I think it's unlikely, but it's odd to treat it as implausible. There was a bit of speculation about Vezok being unreliable enough that he could be non-VT town. Don't know where that came from, think it's unlikely.

Mozamis looks town.

Surye's take on the relevance of Vez wagon is goodposting.

Can't read llama, yos yet.

I don't understand Medicated Lain's point against Vezok. That he may be scum because he is unlikely to be nigthkilled and will live a while? Is this just you trying to give him a motive for doing it as scum? I don't see how the longer a player is likely to live links to how scummy they are (exception for good players mysteriously avoiding nightkills, which doesn't apply here). I also don't really get what I agreed with Yos on, if you can clarify that.

Deathnote is scummy. He's doing that thing that I hate from policy/strategic/whatever lynches where he's absolving himself of responsibility for the lynch by pushing the blame onto something that the other persons done, leaving him blameless when the Vezok turns up VT like he claimed. I get that this is the entire point of what he's doing and he's public about it, but I can't look at his points without it looking like an excuse to kill a townie.

VOTE: Sensfan
Actively involved with irrelevant Vezok non-town discussion, not involved at all in other discussion.

[Primate]

@Deathnote:

He is right that there's a bit of a contradiction but it's a silly one. You are voting Vezok for narrowing down PR possibilities. If you even consider anyone else for a lynch then you are encouraging them to claim and therefore you are also guilty of narrowing PR possibilities.

So if you support any wagon other than the Vezok one you are being internally inconsistent. That's the argument he's making. You said earlier that you are open to lynching someone else, so there's the inconsistency.

I think it's a silly argument because narrowing PR possibilities is a minor point of pursuing people.

[Primate]

That should be non-townie, sorry.

Mozamis brought up the fact that Vezok could be a non-vanilla townie pro-town role lying about his role. Sensfan spent a several posts actively refuting that.

Sensfan hasn't commented on whether he thinks Vezok is scum or not, he's just emphatically argued that if he is town, he's vanilla.

[Primate]

Do we have any data on his scum game? I'm personally unimpressed by this kind of meta unless it's made explicit by the player. For example, I know someone who has a No-Lie Policy and he's kept it throughout years and years of Mafia play up to the point where everybody believes it. But he is invested in his meta. I do not see any investment from Vez. That means that he has more than enough incentive to betray the meta at a later point.

Agar posted a couple of examples earlier. I don't know if he's ever made it explicit outside of this game just now.

As for your read on me disagreeing with you, I actually don't really have a read either way on Suyre. I just thought that this

I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.

I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.

was an accurate summary of why it's a shame Vezok claimed.

Vezoks survivalist attitude depresses me. I can see why he gets policy lynched if he doesn't make an effort to play the same game the rest of us are playing. Getting nightkilled is a good sign because it means the scum think you are a threat. If you get to the endgame, generally it means the scum think you are too stupid to figure out who they are.

[Primate]

Right I'm finally caught up after what is far too long lurking. It's been a busy week but there are times I could have posted and didn't because I didn't have time to catch up. Anyway, here I am now.

@AGar, Primate and LlamaFluff:
If you were scumpartners with vez in this game, would you advise him to claim vanilla town right off the bat?

His call, I wouldn't dictate his play. If he said he was going to do it I'd probably advise him to claim some kind of power role. I'm terrible as scum for trying to get my scumbuddies to claim crazy shit they really shouldn't.

[Primate]

I think it's unlikely Furc is scum. I think self-voting is indicitive of town, also I just don't think his behaviours particularly scummy (and I not long ago finished a game with him as my godfather).

I think Suyre probably is.

unvote: Vote Suyre

@Sensfan: Who do you think is likely to be scum outside of Furc?

PS: I am having a hard time getting into the game and would appreciate it if a couple of people would start asking me questions about it, if they're ok with that.

[Primate]

About the game, sorry, not about the fact I'm having a hard time to get into it. Reread that sentence and it looked weird.

[Primate]

I considered ABR as scum for his early muddling around for a while but I think the playstyles a little odd if he is. It seems like he's playing in a way that intentionally will draw attention to him and I find that weird scum behaviour. Looks more like he doesn't mind the attention and he's being a little bit smug about it. KK's point's good though because perceiving him as giving up like that and moving on it after previous stated opinion is interesting, though I think his reasoning for doing so is plausible. I suppose the relevant factor is whether he's always terse and he's falling into it because playstyle.

Something I was a little surprised to see from him though is the fact that he said he was unwilling to vote anyone other than vezok for making bad decisions and that seemed to be the only reason he's attacking furc at all.

RC's lack of activity and the fact he's saying he isn't going to catch up is a null tell.

[Primate]

ML's, Surye's claimed vanilla so there's no danger of hitting power on both Furc or Suyre, so don't use that as reasoning.

[Primate]

WTF Primate and Lain? Are you two just trying to look as scummy as possible before the deadline?

Lains excuses are completely full of crap.
Primate is still a filthy off-voter just trying to appear as present.

WTF? No opinion of Surye at all? All this stalling just screams that Surye is so scum.

I've actually had my vote on Surye for about a week and reckon he's pretty scummy. Presume the mod missed it.

Mod I am voting Suyre

.

[Primate]

Suppose it at least removes the ambiguity and makes people know exactly how many votes are on the wagon before the mod checks in.

Vote Surye

[Primate]

Cult recruiter seems too dramatic a role to get in this fashion for me to treat llamafluffs result that seriously, and earlier in the game mos as mod derided someone for the idea that he might put cults in the game so I don’t really give too much credence to the idea that kison is actually a cult recruiter. It’s probably some kind of scum message sender who overplayed his hand or similar.

Got to be honest I’ve never really liked bandwagon anaysis before a few people turn up dead and you can analyse whether scum were likely to join in groups. I’m increasingly not a fan of “one-of” arguments generally.

@Sens: Why’d you vote Llamafluff?

Vote GummyBear

I’ll review and maybe move that vote tonight, but I don’t vote enough so best try and break out of a bad habit.

[Primate]

@Kison. I don’t normally explain my votes unless asked. I actually had an alt a few years back that didn’t even explain votes even if asked. Sometimes I will, if it’s a controversial vote or I really want support, but I don’t make a habit of it.

That said I do try and make my opinions on people known generally in the fashion I was doing earlier this game so which I wasn’t doing at that point I voted, so it’s fair enough you object there.

My vote on Suyre was primarily because I didn’t really want to try and start another wagon at that point, as well as the fact that I didn’t feel like my reads on a lot of people were up to date enough to do a full review of the game, so I picked the subset of people who were under suspicion and just concentrated on trying to get a good read on them.

Out of the people who had any support for their lynch it was pretty I felt Suyre was the worst. His #96 rubbed me the wrong way, because though I thought it was accurate on the relevance of the wagon, I felt that it was a premature write off of the day. I also felt that his annoyance at Vezok claiming seemed insincere. I felt he was trying to show an attitude of being involved in other wagons whilst actually having no interest in them. I disliked his general attitude towards talking about vezok a lot and I thought he was trying to simplify the game by focusing on the pros and the cons of lynching Vezok and framing that as the big argument even after it wasn't anymore. I didn't like his vote on Furc and I think voting for self-voting like he did is scummy because I thought it was a scummyness argument phrased as a policy argument, which felt weasely. The way he dropped the

In reterospect there are a couple of things I should have caught at the time but didn't that indicate town, but can't dwell too much on that.

Anyway Dr Whos on so I'll post this and address why I voted Gummybear and probably move my vote after that's finished. I think too many people are town at the minute.

[Primate]

Alberts obviously not lying and it's a little weird that IS is still beating the ABR drum, though I think he's town.

I don't have enthusiasm for the Reapercharlie/Battousai wagon at the moment. I need to review and read others arguments against him though really, not just iso him. In particular I don't really see how Reapercharlie has done much scummy outside of general malaise regarding the game, most of the specific things, like the early lurking and bringing in a hydra are null tells. Most of my read is based on Batt becuase I think that's where the tells are.

[Primate]

Unvote

Should have done that a couple of days ago, I don't believe in that vote anymore. (Aware I still need to explain why I voted Gummybear in the first place)

[Primate]

Did you not want support on the Suyre wagon or for Gummybear? What about SensFan?

I only really care about getting support on a wagon if I have a particularly strong read on a guy, otherwise I'm fairly happy to let people work on their own reads. There aren't many situations where if I'm voting a guy I don't also want other people to voting that guy even if I don't want him lynched, but I'm not going to try and muddy the game by trying to persuade people of anything unless I've got something fairly definitive or it's a dangerous game state like lylo.

The only one I out of your list there where I was tempted to try and throw together a case for at some point was Sensfan mid-D1, and that was because I thought he was pretty scummy and it seemed boggling to me that no-one had picked up on it.

Also @RC: Speaking of Agar, Primate and Llama, have you figured out yet that your Readapalooza isn't teaching you anything about Primate or Agar's replacement? Neither are posting, and yet you're leaving them off your scumlist/commentary entirely.

I think the fact that I am consistently near the bottom of Hez's lists by virtue of not posting highlights what a joke they are.

[Primate]

Vote Toonfighter

DeathNinja is stupidly obvious town.

[Primate]

Toonfighter's an ok wagon.

BMQ I went into reading with a mindset of thinking he was scummy but actually he comes across ok. Similar situation reading Hez.

FOS Kison, ML, Poro

[Primate]

Strongly suspect Deathnote is town. Can't read yos either way, but he's commited on enough people to make reading him easier later.

[Primate]

Furc still looks town. Need to meta MBL because I don't have a good read on him and I think characterful posting like his responds well to that. Zindie comes across as pro-town to me, though it's a similar situation with Yos where I have enough faith in his ability to fool me that I will probably reevaluate a lot.

[Primate]

Don't like Kublei Kahn. IS still reads alright. CES gets a neutral due to looking townish but wrong.

[Primate]

RC unless I'm mistaken all that needs to happen is he has more votes than you at deadline. That happens and deadline rules kick in and lynch him.

[Primate]

Each Day phase will last no longer than 3 weeks. Deadlines are subject to the Helios mechanic. At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch to occur. In case of a tie, the person who first received the required number of votes will be lynched. If this number is not met, a No Lynch will occur.

[Primate]

That's the ½ the original number of votes. So currently 6. Half the majority of votes.

[Primate]

If the source is town and this information is legit they should out themselves because then we can kill a cult leader and a serial killer and as an information role you just take that. To my mind the fact that this role hasn't outed itself to say holy shit lynch these people is sign enough that it's at best unreliable.

[Primate]

Mafiascum meet. Bunch of people are going to DrippingGoofballs house. Realistically it's a vla but they'll ideally be aroundish because it's a mafia playing house and there is that expectation that people can't just not post in their games for a week.

[Primate]

Zindie, what information do we get if Toonfighter flips town and, if it's little, why are you advocating such a situational plan?

[Primate]

Vote Toonfighter

[Primate]

You forgot the part of your role that lets you kill people at night.

[Primate]

Can you explain your second line here, Primate?

Had a read on them as scummy but was uncomfortable with it because I felt I hadn't spent enough time ensuring it's accuracy. Reread them and I changed my mind a little.

HezRead not my finest moment.

[Primate]

"the first claim is right"