Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[BrianMcQueso]

/confirm

[BrianMcQueso]

Surye's confirmation makes the 20th (if I'm counting that right) so I'm comfortable talking about this now.

Eh. Slightly better at least. I'm VT, of course. I think I was VT in my last 6 games? on MS.

Your meta seems to be well established with a few of these other players, which means you either could be playing consistently or choosing to abuse it. We have no way of knowing which is the case. Both are possible, and while that style of play is usually damaging to the town, it is starting discussion. I suppose there is some degree of merit in that.

But he only claims VT as town. How much does lynching people who are town increase the towns chance of winning?

Blindly buying into the meta, though, is even more damaging to the town. I think I'd rather start here.

vote: Primate

Townie Brownies to Yos2 and Porochaz for your outgoing skepticism.

[BrianMcQueso]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

Really? Damn, I wish I had claimed VT in pregame so I could be "near for sure" innocent in your eyes. This is Mafia, pal. People can lie (seriously).

[BrianMcQueso]

What did the VT claim do for your read on him?

I don't like what it has done for the town, but I don't believe it makes him scum. I don't think scum would willingly draw that much attention to themselves so early. His action has still made the town's chances worse, because we are now focused on him instead of catching scum. If he actually is VT, it also increases the scum's chances of hitting a power role on their nightly kill.

Jesus christ, let's all stop being retarded for a second. Vezok claimed VT. If he was scum or anti-town of any flavor, he would have had some ridiculous unbelievably retarded claim. It's how he rolls. He is not smart enough to manipulate this.

No no no no no. You can't make that assumption. That kind of blind metagaming does not help us. I know I just stated that I don't believe him to be scum, but I haven't written off the idea entirely. You're acting like he's a confirmed innocent. He's not.

Deathnote is scummy. He's doing that thing that I hate from policy/strategic/whatever lynches where he's absolving himself of responsibility for the lynch by pushing the blame onto something that the other persons done, leaving him blameless when the Vezok turns up VT like he claimed. I get that this is the entire point of what he's doing and he's public about it, but I can't look at his points without it looking like an excuse to kill a townie.

This is a reasonable point, and one I agree with. But then you go and:

VOTE: Sensfan
Actively involved with irrelevant Vezok non-town discussion, not involved at all in other discussion.

You'll have to clarify this for me, but this is how I'm reading this. You're voting him because he's talking about Vezok, which clearly is the biggest thing to chat about so far. How does talking about that make him scummier than say, the guy you plainly labeled as scummy the paragraph before?

[BrianMcQueso]

@SensFan: Your logic is based on the false assumption that players play optimally.

@Primate: Thanks for the clarification.

[BrianMcQueso]

I'm still waiting to hear why lynching claimed VTs improves the towns odds.

Do you disagree with the arguments that have been presented, or are you ignoring them? You refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Vezok

might

be scum, and you're attacking anyone who thinks otherwise.

unvote, vote: AGar

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Really? Maybe it's just me, but I don't have my role PM word-for-word memorized. There's scum slips, and then there's paraphrasing.

To the people voting for Vezok for *this* reason: do you legitimately think this is a scum slip?

[BrianMcQueso]

Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1

without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action)

for me to consider his lynch today

, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

So, you came into this game knowing you wouldn't lynch Vezok? And there's no way we can convince you otherwise? You're admitting personal bias, and you're saying the only thing to convince you otherwise is with a night action. Which is funny, considering that most people seem to be saying that actually using investigations on Vezok would be a terrible idea.

Your actions are not helping the town.

[BrianMcQueso]

You're either braindead or scum.

Take your pick.

Vezok claimed VT pre-game. Once the game opened, that put him on the no D1 lynch list for me. There are more fruitful choices than someone who claimed VT pre-game like he almost always does.

And if you'd learn to read

, I said that the only things that would convince me otherwise couldn't happen (a la, a night action) MEANING WE HAD NO NIGHT ZERO.

Seriously. Which is it?

"Which is it?" Your argument is a terrible false dichotomy. This is a game of logic and reasoning, not a game of insulting people to somehow prove them wrong.

Don't continue to personally attack me.

It is very difficult to determine who is Mafia on the first day. So, I personally like to lynch someone who isn't helping the town, to keep around the players who are being useful for later days. This is why I first voted you, and this is also a legitimate reason to lynch Vezok today.

But, you attack anyone who votes for Vezok. How can you defend someone whom you can't be 100% sure is innocent?* Like you said, there was no N0. At this point, only scum know who the innocents are.

You yourself labeled Vezok a village idiot. How does an unreadable fool help you find scum?* If finding scum isn't your goal, you're scum.

When Vezok claimed VT, it put him on your no-lynch list for Day 1. You are encouraging a behavior that is bad for the town. Do you still believe (no matter how many people explain otherwise) that early claims benefit the town?* You're giving him a free pass, and no matter what he says today, he's off the hook in your eyes because there was no Night 0.

*These are not rhetorical questions. I would like you to answer them.

@Albert You also should stop with the personal attacks. It has no place here, for many reasons.

[BrianMcQueso]

@Albert You also should stop with the personal attacks. It has no place here, for many reasons.

Excuse me?

I am being nice, sir. If you think that I should censor myself from saying that someone

annoys

me, please kindly take a step back, clear your thoughts, and come back to me with a smarter reply.

I suppose I overreacted, and I was in a bad mood considering I had just been called braindead and illiterate.

Maybe they killed you because they find you as annoying as I do.

Nevertheless, this kind of post really doesn't contribute to the game.

[BrianMcQueso]

Look, I don't expect you to replace out. I expect to eliminate you the first chance I get. I don't care if it wastes a day, or it keeps the others from discussing the game, or even if it puts me at risk. I don't care. I am out to get you and every post you make emboldens my drive.

This this this is why I was objecting. Blind play based on players is

not helpful

.

[BrianMcQueso]

Get over it. Grow thicker skin. You're still skirting the point that you attack me for insinuating people should burn night actions on Vezok when in fact I never said anything of the like.

I'm attacking you because you defend Vezok, and attack anyone who suspects him. I don't know how many times you want me to say that.

Now, I'll admit I misinterpreted you when you said "the only thing that could change my mind is a night action". You were referring to the nonexistent Night 0, and I thought you were suggesting that a cop should investigate Vezok tonight. But you still defend Vezok with a passion despite calling him a village idiot.

You want to talk about skirting points? Go read my post #242. I'll even link it for you, for your convenience. Answer my questions. Explain yourself.

[BrianMcQueso]

I do intend to make a case on ToonFighter, but I'm extremely busy at the moment.

You say, and then make a big post and then two more posts the same day following that.

I want to see him and others post more before I do so.

I get the feeling you don't have enough information to build a sufficient case and need to wait it out until you can justify yourself. Yos2 put it succintly: "If you think person X is scummy, and someone asks you to explain why, you should be more then happy to do so". We're not looking for a thesis here, just explain yourself.

[BrianMcQueso]

@Porochaz You haven't played with Internet Stranger before, have you?

[BrianMcQueso]

@Agar Thank you for addressing my questions. I'm still weary of your defense of Vezok, and I've still got my eye on you.

That being said, I think I'd like to light a fire under Furcolow and see if we can squeeze some contribution out of him. Whether the absence is legitimate or lurking, he needs to start talking.

unvote AGar, vote Furcolow

[BrianMcQueso]

@Cogito Welcome to the game, spammer!

[BrianMcQueso]

Furcolow: Do you have anything to say about topics other than yourself? I see your vote of Veroz, but... anything else? We're 16 pages into the game here.

[BrianMcQueso]

The Vezo and Furc wagons are full of opportunistic scum looking to get easy lynches on notorious players.

There's both scum and innocents on every bandwagon (last time I checked, the mafia couldn't lynch a player by themselves). Unless you think we should be pursuing a "difficult" lynch for the sake of it being difficult? Easy lynches are easy because the target is scummy. If the target wasn't scummy, so many people wouldn't be voting for them. Also, I don't want my words twisted as "a person is scummy because people are voting for them", because that's not what I'm saying.

@BrianMcqeso, would you like for me to talk about how IS made you look like an idiot?
or about how everyone talked about vezokpiraka for ten pages?

Oh yeah! What a sick burn by IS. You should definitely waste more of our time talking about that. Say what you will about vezokpiraka being innocent or not, but his claim at the start of the day gave us something to talk about. How people reacted to it is valuable information and discussion.

The better players in the thread are voting Vezokpiraka. The only people voting me are generally the anal-retentive mathematicians, idiots like Toon, or scum like LlamaFluff

Way to suck up to the people you agree with and blast the people against you. This is textbook scummy behavior.

[BrianMcQueso]

let's prove ABR right, shall we?

vote: Furcolow

sigh

All I wanted was for you to help the town, and this is as far away from that goal as possible.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish by voting yourself? So when you flip innocent you can go "I told you so!"? Yeah, brilliant. Nobody's ever thought of doing that before. You're not proving anything, except that you're a quitter. Thanks for playing.

[BrianMcQueso]

>> MOD: Can we have 1x vote count please?

No clue how many times I need to continue to say this, but vezok is town

No clue how many times I need to continue to say this, but no. You can not know for sure if someone is town, unless you are scum. Your single-minded play is blinding you.

Also,

Vezok wagon is shit, Furc is the VI scumbuddy that ABR is white-knighting right now.

By that logic, Vezok is your VI scumbuddy.

-Gummybear

Goodposting.

Why would you start out a post trying to give "evidence that Furclaw might be innocent", and then vote him in the same post?

Goodposting.

RE: The whole "should VT claim at L-1", I think VT should claim before they die. Refusal to claim is confusing the town and could send the wrong message. I also understand this is my opinion and others will disagree. To those arguing, you need to understand not everyone plays mafia the way you do.

I also believe the D0 VT claim is a bad idea, but that's a whole 'nutha thang.

You point to six suspects and then you vote a lurker?

Are you sure you know how this game is played?

There is not enough sarcasm in the world to reply to this statement. I'm growing tired of you more and more.

To those not voting Furcolow: why not? What is your opinion on players who vote for themselves?

[BrianMcQueso]

{to LlamaFluff}

The fact that you keep repeating over and over again that certain people are "obviously town" doesn't actually make it so.

Agree 100%. It's getting irritating.

---

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

*I'm 90% sure on that, but we haven't had a vote count recently and if I missed a vpte, please forgive.

[BrianMcQueso]

Sorry for the absence.

I'm still happy with my vote on Furcolow. His behavior still reads very scummy to me. He has a lot of OMGUS behavior and changes votes constantly. It seems like he's just trying to get anyone lynched and doesn't really believe in anything he's doing.

I don't understand the case on Surye. He voted for Vezok, which is justifiable given Vezok's play. The claims of his wagon-hopping are greatly exaggerated.

Every time someone says "X is blatantly town" "X is obviously town" I want to stab myself in the eye. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You can't know for sure if someone is town on Day 1. And what's obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else. If someone disagrees with you, that doesn't automagically make them scum, or an idiot.

Agreeing with Porochaz: DeathNote's play has gotten worse over time.

At this point, if Vezok was going to be lynched, he'd be hanging. The case on him is nothing more than mere policy with a hint of "Well I don't like how he's playing, he's not intelligent." If people were going to be swayed, it would've happened by now. He's not going to die, the people who are against voting for Vezok aren't going to change their minds. It's fairly obvious that this was a mislynch that petered out, and as many people have said such, even people (like yourself) who were voting him noted there is a higher probability of him flipping town. This is a player that scum now need dead simply because he cannot be lynched. But killing him wastes a night-kill that could have been instead spent power-role hunting or eliminating stronger town players. Scum don't want to kill him, but they need him dead, as him being alive narrows the mislynch pool.

This is the first AGar post about Vezok that I (for the most part) agree with. A Vezok lynch probably isn't going to happen today at this point. If he is town, that makes him dangerous for the scum, but he's a suboptimal NK because of his claim. If Vezok is scum, though, that leaves him in a good spot.

Can someone recap the reasons for voting Surye for me? And I'm gonna need more than "Because IS says so"

[BrianMcQueso]

@IS: The recap is much appreciated. The Surye vote seems legitimate, and his responses aren't doing much for his standing in my eyes. Nevertheless, I'm still happy with where my vote currently sites. Furcolow just screams scum with every post.

@Surye: IS is rehashing because

I asked him to

(post #661). Also requested by Amrun (#662).

[BrianMcQueso]

Thoughts on top wagons:

Furcolow: Originally voted him because his replies always appeared when he was suspected, giving the impression he was actively lurking. The vote stayed when his behavior grew more suspicious, primarily my concern with his vote switches. I got the impression he was trying to deflect to any other person that had potential of being suspicious. Currently, he is promising to scumhunt without scumhunting, carrying a defeatist attitude (both self-voting and post #726) and accusing LF of trying to "butter him up" when LF is just trying to get him to post something worthwhile.

Surye: Surye's "plan" is my biggest strike against him. Directing the cop and future lynches is bad behavior. Also, I am not a fan of how he did not address Internet Stranger's case against him, dismissing it as IS tunneling. The Surye wagon has merit.

Medicated Lain: From what I can tell, the reasons for voting Lain have been because her play was "wishy-washy" (Yosarian2) for voting Vezok (LlamaFluff) and for voting a non-poster after making cases against other players (MrBuddyLee). If I'm interpreting those reasons right, the MBL case is the only one I can really agree with. I actually support "wishy-washy" play over blind tunneling. You can't know for sure who scum is. And voting Vezok is easily justifiable based on his early play.

And if I hear one more "Vezok is blatantly obviously irrevocably town" post I will stab someone.

Misc. Thoughts

Yosarian2: From past experience, I have always had a high opinion of you. You had a habit of posting what I was thinking before I said it. This game started that way, but as the game developed I've found myself disagreeing with you and believing what you were saying is just playin wrong. You seem to have developed an attitude of "this is how I play Mafia, and I'll be damned if you play otherwise". I find it suspicious how motivated you are to get other people to agree with you.

Cogito: You're not being particularly useful. I'd say more about you, but you haven't really given me much content to address.

Amrun: Looks town to me. MrBuddyLee (who also looks town to me), can you go into more detail about Amrun?

[BrianMcQueso]

The problem I had with ML's play, at least at up until the time I pointed it out, was that she was being noncommital on everything.

Understood.

how so?

I'd have thought I was being pretty reasonable towards people with different playstyles and different opinions, such as Agar for example, so long as they seemed to have plausible pro-town motivation for their actions.

I was mostly referring to the amount of time and effort you've spent trying to convince people that lynching a D0 claimed VT is the correct play, and trying to convince people that people should never claim VT ever ever. Not everyone follows the same line of logic, opinions differ.

[BrianMcQueso]

Furc was lynchable at deadline. Anyone using that as an excuse should be looked at carefully.

Despite it being Surye's own neck on the line (and therefore has every motivation to get people to not vote for him), he's right on this one. Both players are lynchable. Switching votes for the sake of getting a lynch in at deadline is a false excuse, and is something that needs to be scrutinized.

[BrianMcQueso]

I see no reason for the amensiac cop (if any) to claim. If we wanted to test Llama's information, we can just have him fullclaim it and lynch his target to test the information. Llama's information reveal has a number of possibilities:

a) Llama is telling the truth, there is amnesiac cop, and that cop nailed a cult leader.
b) Llama is telling the truth, but the information was from an anti-town role trying to trip him up.
c) Llama is lying.

Let's go into some setup balance, which is my favorite part of MafiaScum

In regards to (a), I'm skeptical of the presence of a cult because of the three nightkills. If you assume one vigilante, that makes two anti-town kills. Two anti-town groups

and

a cult? Nah, too imbalanced against the town. I could see a cult is if it was one anti-town kill and two vigilantes, which is unlikely, but possible.

In regards to (b), an anti-town role that allows them to send fake amnesiac cop results to players sounds very powerful. Such a power, if it existed, could allow that player to essentially dictate two lynches (in our example, one lynch on Llama's result, one lynch on Llama for "lying to the town") while remaining completely anonymous.

Unless there is a possibility I'm missing (admittedly possible), we either have a "two vigilantes, one scum group and a cult" setup; or Llama is lying.

[BrianMcQueso]

The motivation for Llama to lie is low, considering it's Day 2. Still, if he is scum, he's given himself enough leeway to possibly talk the town out of his lynch on Day 3.

I'm mostly just having trouble believing this game has a cult. Sure it fits with the flavor of Agent Smith (and if I was designing a Matrix game, I'd go that route), but the three nightkills is something to be considered.

[BrianMcQueso]

a) Mafia, SK, Vig or two Mafia, Vig are both quite realistic possibilities.

Well, yeah, that was my point. Neither of those setups have room for a cult.

b) This is a point I disagree with. All you need is a scum message-sender. I had that role in both Packrats Mafia and Artifacts Mafia. Beyond that, we'd never chainlynch based on this because it's not Llama's role or Llama's result.

Perhaps I overestimated the effect of the messenger's power. Still, if that messenger had gone with a more believable message (X is a town, where X isn't actually town) it would've been stronger.

The final dichotomy is just faulty. Llama may not be lying, he may simply have been fed false information. Three options, not two.

I listed three options

. I even labeled them (a), (b) and (c). "Llama is telling the truth and was lied to" was option B.

[BrianMcQueso]

Reading ReaperCharlie in iso, almost all his posts are "I promise to post later" or "I acknowledge I haven't posted."

Trying to comment on everything is too much for me, and takes WAY too long.

Then comment on something. Anything. Other than your own inactivity, of course. Or replace out, and stop replacing into games if you're not going to make the effort to play in them.

[BrianMcQueso]

Get off my nuts.

Stop trying to post something and post something![/matrixreference]

We will stop hounding you for your delays when you stop delaying. It's really that simple. You clearly have time to be checking this and making excuses that could be spent more productively.

vote: ReaperCharlie

[BrianMcQueso]

V/LA this weekend.

May be able to post Friday.

ಠ_ಠ

Listen, I'm not looking to lynch a lurker on Day 2. We've got better leads to follow. But your behavior is just so damn scummy! There's a difference between someone who's inactive, and someone who is very active but not contributing.

After everyone has had a chance to chime in an lay out a possible connection to the investigation target I probably will. I want a few more people to give specific input into the matter first though, always can help for tackling future things.

I have a sinking feeling that you are holding off naming a name because you're not quite sure who you want to put in the hot seat. Or maybe it's just that I don't understand your rationale for not revealing your information. Why are you trying to keep the alleged cult recruiter hidden in anonymity?

[BrianMcQueso]

Limited access through Monday.

[BrianMcQueso]

McQueso #805 - I would like to see McQueso push someone's lynch hard. The identity of that person, I feel, would give us a lot of info regarding McQueso's alignment (I'm having a tough read here

I was pretty adamant about lynching Furcolow yesterday. He has since stepped up the quality of his posting (unlike ReaperCharlie, who has done nothing of the sort). Also, early Day 1, I was very skeptical of AGar's defense of vezok. If you want to see what it looks like when I'm trying to push a lynch, there they are.

BrianMcQueso #832 - you obviously have not read my posts. I have been heavily opposed to the Furc wagon all of yesterday. I am in no way "lynchable" for changing my vote to Surye. Though I'm sure upon reread you found that out, this still merits scumpoints on your part. (at least Zindaras #842 caught onto this - case on Agar is noted!)

My post was addressing people switching votes to Surye just so that someone would be lynched. There are other legitimate reasons to vote Surye, which is something that I acknowledged. If you switched to Surye for reasons other than "we need to lynch someone today", you're cool in my book.

[BrianMcQueso]

Question for furc folk: So suddenly it's ok to forget all about yesterday? No one even mentions him at all anymore. He had scummy patterns, and I think there's a possibility that he could be scum with ABR. Yet no one on the furc wagon comments on this at all? Something's not right there.

Furc was very likely active lurking, until someone called him on it.
RC has admitted to continued active lurking, even after being called on it.

This pretty much sums up my attitude towards Furcolow. The self-vote from yesterday still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but he is the lesser of two evils at this point since he seems to be contributing, unlike ReaperCharlie who continues to provide no information to get a read on.

I straight up do not understand the votes on Toon Fighter. The votes on him are from Cogito (who provided no reason for his vote), Kublai Khan (who provided no reason for his vote), and LlamaFluff (who provided no reason for his vote but then later unvoted and it wasn't reflected in the vote count I think). Three votes, no explanations. How does that even happen?

Albert B. Rampage's attitude disgusts me, but I don't think he's scum at this point.

SensFan's case against HezLucky (post #1087) is an interesting one, and fairly convincing. I'd very much like a response from Hez.

[BrianMcQueso]

Hez, you've got a bad case of the "anyone who disagrees with me is scum". Sens pointed this out, and all you do in reply is say 'That's not scumhunting! You're not scumhunting!' over and over and over (and over). I called the case on you "interesting and fairly convincing" and in your reply, I became scummy in your eyes. Your thinly-veiled OMGUS has been noted.

[BrianMcQueso]

I agree, the deadline is a week and a half away and we're not really getting anywhere. I am still happy with my RC vote, and he just seems to be rubbing his uselessness in our face now. SensFan's and InternetStranger's latest posts (see above) I completely agree with. If RC is town, he's hurting the town. If he's scum, he's getting away with ridiculous lurking in plain sight.

[BrianMcQueso]

Clearly it means that there is a link, otherwise ABR is just loud and hypocritical.

I would not count out that possibility.

Heres the other thing we have to do. Let us give RC a deadline. 2 Days, no more.

That will not make a difference. My only hope at this point is for RC's hydra buddy to pull some worth out of that player slot, but that doesn't seem to be happening either.

DeathNote's recent behavior is scummy.

[BrianMcQueso]

@McQueso: please sell me on why Furcolow is town.

I don't think he's town, and at no point did I ever say he was. On top of that, I'm not going to spend my time defending a player that I don't know who is innocent or guilty. I don't know anyone else's alignment, and I can't know for sure unless we get a confirmed innocent through cop investigation or something. Furcolow is simply the lesser of two evils to me at this point.

I'm re-reading ToonFighter's ISO, and I'm still a bit sketchy on why everyone thinks he's scum. I posted earlier that many people straight-up voted him without explanation, which still concerns me. Albert B. Rampage's vote seems to be straight up OMGUS. Ranmaru voted Toon Fighter for "voting someone he thinks is innocent", but Toon Fighter accuses Furcolow of being a scumbag multiple times. Kison votes Toon Fighter for "terrible votes", which is a line of reasoning I disagree with but at least makes sense to me. The whole wagon seems to be crap. I'm not saying TF is innocent, but I just plain don't understand what people see in him.

ReaperCharlie should die. Not just because of his insanely scummy play, but also because it would give us a treasure trove of information after he flips. Battousai's initial post had more information than all of RC's content combined, but after that, there's not a lot from him that would redeem my faith in the hydra. Vote stands.

[BrianMcQueso]

@MBL: I've said this before, but there's a difference between a lurker (which is "useless town") and players who actively provide no information. ReaperCharlie has posted many times, but never shares his opinions about who he thinks is scum, or anything related to the game other than defending his own inactivity. It's not that I don't have a read on him, but that my read is that he is intentionally not making his opinions known so they can't be used against him.

MBL is asking me to speculate on what my opinions will be whether or not RC flips town or scum. I'm not exactly comfortable doing that because the results of the nightkills and other information garnered from discussion must be taken into consideration. Nevertheless, I'll play along. I'm currently subscribing to InternetStranger's theory that Albert B. Rampage isn't attacking RC the way he attacked Furcolow because they're buddies. If RC flips scum, I would want to lynch ABR tomorrow. If RC flips town and I had no other leads to go on from other discussion, I would probably go back to suspecting Furcolow because of his suspicious play yesterday. I also have my eye on LlamaFluff. And I'd probably take a harder look at this ToonFighter wagon, since it seems to be the talk of the town.

For those attacking me for no longer voting Furcolow, hey, I've only got one vote. And if I switched back to Furc, you know I'd get the exact same line: "Hey BMQ, why aren't you voting RC? I thought you said he was scummy!"

[BrianMcQueso]

ABR

: Just because you claim vigilante does not mean you know who is scum. And if you go around killing people you disagree with instead of people who are likely to be scum (because there's a difference, you know), you're just going to be accelerating this game towards a loss.

ReaperCharlie

: You promised us reads, and yet all you do is still cover your own ass. And with straight WIFOM, too. Don't think it's anything other than that. I don't know if you honestly expected me to be convinced by 'Hey, I'm town, don't lynch me... because I'm town.' Die scum die.

Battousai

: I'm sorry that I don't have a grandmaster blueprint that accurately nails every other player's alignment based on the result of ReaperCharlie's alignment. My bad. Most people have an opinion of RC. Those who are defending him will have to defend themselves if he flips scum. How those players defend themselves will define Day 3. If RC flips town, we look at those suspecting him. We look carefully at their reasons for suspecting him, and that in turn drives Day 3's events. There is a lot of potential activity, there. If we don't lynch RC, then that potential is flushed, and people don't have to be held accountable for their actions and scum get to hide. That alone isn't enough justification to lynch RC, but combined with all the other terribly scummy behavior, RC is a great lynch for today.

LlamaFluff:

@ LF: I am a pro-town program, I am not a miller

All other pro-town programs should claim at this point like this.

No no no no no. No. Look at the vanilla townie PM. Vanillas are not "programs", and so "programs" are not vanilla. If you are seriously asking all the power roles to massclaim, then we should hang you where you stand.

FoS: LlamaFluff

[BrianMcQueso]

ABR, I was objecting to the "follow my lead, bitches" attitude. Just because you're a claimed vig doesn't mean you're omnipotent. And I'm not faulting you for putting a bullet in vezok, I would've done the same. But given your aggressive play, I'm trying to deter you from becoming a trigger-happy vig that shoots anyone who disagrees with him and hurts the town rather than helping it.

[BrianMcQueso]

If that's how you think scum should be found, how come you haven't done this for the Day One wagons/flips?

Last time I checked, I was currently voting and been spending most of my effort towards lynching ReaperCharlie, the player who hammered the last wagon with no explanation and who has still not provided any information on his methods, reads, or opinions of any other players in the game.

How do you find scum, MrBuddyLee?

[BrianMcQueso]

The Surye-hammer aspect was mentioned by other players. I'm sorry, I didn't know it would be necessary for me to redundantly state that just so it appears on my record. If I'm just echoing what other people say, then you'd be calling me out on that instead.

I've already told you what I think of Furcolow, multiple times. You seem offended that I'm not voting for him! If I, in my next post, unvoted ReaperCharlie and voted for Furcolow, how would you respond to that?

What part of my words don't line up with my actions? I was fairly single-minded about my pursuit of Furcolow yesterday, and I'm the same for ReaperCharlie today. Am I not allowed to change who I pursue? Would you prefer it if I had stayed stuck to Furcolow and ignored the behavior of ReaperCharlie? I'm building cases against the players I'm voting for, which I can't say for many people in this town, including yourself.

In fact, let's look at your play, MBL. Your first vote is in your ISO post #4, for ToonFighter. You then completely ignore ToonFighter in each following post (except for ISO Post #8 where he's only mentioned in passing on a list). This continues to your ISO Post #13, when you switch to vote for Medicated Lain. You then never address Lain again for the rest of the game-day. Why don't you question people you vote for, MBL? How do you defend that style of play?

In regards to my suspects on the Surye wagon, I have my doubts about:

* Cogito (who has been very hard to get a read on)
* AGar (every time he is talking about Surye, he is also highly-suspect of someone else. seems kinda wishy-washy)
* Kison (who seemed to hop on for inactivity and then never really addressed it after Surye became active)
* DeathNote (last minute hop-on is traditionally scummy)
* Primate (goes from liking Surye to being unsure about Surye to voting for Surye while still being relatively unsure?)

As for Porochaz, I don't have a problem with his play. I think it's fairly obvious that I don't have a problem with him voting for RC. I disagree with your assessment that "his post to content ratio is high", and I don't like how you tried to link him to the dead Amrun. I wouldn't call Porochaz a shining bastion of scumhunting, but he seems to be playing logically and is willing to share his opinions. Compared to many other players, I've got no issue with Porochaz right now.

[BrianMcQueso]

What about the post where he calls IS scummy and the post where I call TF and Furcolow scummy?

Let me break this down for you. Here is ReaperCharlie's ISO. Anything in quotation marks is a direct copy-and-paste.

Spoiler: ReaperCharlie's posting history

#0: Hi guys! Looks like I'll be replacing in. "I may or may not be able to go back and read the thread in very much depth"

No content.

#1: "Up to about page 5. Should have time to catch up a little more tonight."

No content.

#2: "I'm going to have to break my word. I might not have a chance to re-read until tomorrow night."

No content.

#3: "Still having trouble finding the time to comment in here."

No content.

#4: "I have decided to forgo reading the last 20 pages, and wait to see what Surye flips."

No content.

#5: "I'm already accountable for having not caught up in a week." Acknowledges that he's accountable for his inactivity. No content on anything other than himself.
#6: "I am probably significantly busier than you..."

No content.

#7: "All I have to say is, somebody better make something happen..."

No content.

#8: "Vote: Surye" No explanation. That and an image was literally the entire hammering post.
#9: "Comments/etc in a while." "Having four flips to work with is magically awesome." Seems happy that townies died? Still no talk of any other players in the game.
#10: "Soooo I'm just gonna give reads. And they will be awesome. Expect something within an hour and a half."

No content.

#11: "P.S. You should all sheep me because I am excellent and sexy." This is just starting to get embarrassing.

No content.

#12: "Tomorrow is when it'll have to be, despite my (empty) promises."

No content.

#13: "It'll happen. Eventually."

No content.

#14: "Get off my nuts."

No content.

#15: "V/LA this weekend. May be able to post Friday."

No content.

#16: "Vote: SensFan This is a serious vote." That is the post in its entirety. Again, no explanation whatsoever. No mention of SensFan, or really any other player, outside of this post.
#17: My hydra is Death Ninja.

No content.

#18: "That'll make it an extra while, unfortunately. Sorry to all."

No content.

#19: Asks the mod about hydra.

No content.

#20: "Nice cop-out vote: Voting a lurker until he stops lurking. Yeaaahhhh SensFan is scum." The closest ReaperCharlie has come to expressing a game-related opinion thus far.
#21:

Hurrr durrr.... if I was scum, I would either have replaced out, or would have taken care of the game myself. I wouldn't have created a hydra to fill my slot. Yes, that is WIFOM.



And YES, Lynch All Lurkers is a cop-out. Nice OMGUS claim of cop-out, you cop-outting cop-outer.

Now stop outing cops.

It's WIFOM, and RC even acknowledges that. This is hurting your standing in everyone's eyes, not helping. It also still doesn't address any other players in the game.
#22: "No ploy. Just busy."

No content.

#23 "I have never played with IS before." Gee, thanks.

No content.

#24: (in regards to a Kison post) "This post reads like pure scum to me." Hey! An opinion! Would you care to elaborate on that? No? Ok, moving on.
#25: "don't expect much from me this weekend"

No content.

#26: A nonsense fluff post.

No content.

#27: "I do need to read the thread, yes, because I have absolutely no idea what went on after page 4."

No content.

#28: "Doing a powerful re-read on my other game. Once that one's done, this one will get the same treatment."

No content.

#29: "Albert is scum with Internet Stranger" No explanation? Not even a vote swap? Neat. You are contributing.[/sarcasm]
#30: "This paragraph makes literally no sense."
#31: "Anyway, I'm done catching up in my other 50ish page large, now to start on this one. When me and Battousai finish, prepare for GLORY." (I wish I was making this shit up at this point)
#32: "More votes on SensFan. Watch how cool it is when he flips scum. " Man, you are convincing.
#33: "I will vote IS as well.

I don't like what I've seen of him so far." This is starting to look like content. Except there's just so little of it to go on. And there's no explanations for anything. "X is scum" doesn't help anyone.
#34: "Haha, I didn't vote IS, you clowns. lol

I just got back from V/LA about half an hour ago. Stop this madness, haha. Let me read the thread please. " We've given you all damn game to read the thread.
Posts #35 and #36 are decent in length. Unfortunately, all they are is trying to tell everyone to stop voting him. RC continues not to make a case on any other player beyond "X is scum".

So Battousai, what about the post where he calls IS scummy? #33? Does that post really convince you that ReaperCharlie is contributing to this game? What about all the other posts? Did you read them? Look, you seem to be a decent player, and I'm sorry that you're anchored to this dead weight. But go back through all of ReaperCharlie's posts and find me anything that points to RC not being an intentional lurker who votes with no explanation, does not make a case against any other player other than "X is scum", does not bother explaining any of their actions, and uses stupid WIFOM logic. Yes, a large portion of this is RC being 'useless', but during the rare moments that RC is posting something other than "I'll post later", it's all textbook scummy behavior.

I wish I could find upsides to ReaperCharlie's posting. Even the scummiest scum can have redeeming qualities, but not RC. Not even close.

[BrianMcQueso]

Battousai:

I continue to make cases against ReaperCharlie. I do so in the efforts to show how he is worse than the other players I put on my suspect list from that lynch. I don't see how you can't get that. Do you want me to compare RC to each of those players individually? Is that what you want from me? Because that is ridiculous. How much more do you want me to post against your hydra-partner?

I addressed the information we get from ReaperCharlie in my post #1350:

Most people have an opinion of RC. Those who are defending him will have to defend themselves if he flips scum. How those players defend themselves will define Day 3. If RC flips town, we look at those suspecting him. We look carefully at their reasons for suspecting him, and that in turn drives Day 3's events. There is a lot of potential activity, there. If we don't lynch RC, then that potential is flushed, and people don't have to be held accountable for their actions and scum get to hide. That alone isn't enough justification to lynch RC, but combined with all the other terribly scummy behavior, RC is a great lynch for today.

If you disagree with my opinion, fine, but saying that there's no information to be gained from an RC lynch is misleading. Saying I haven't addressed at all it is misrepresentation.

Brian 1368- 1) There were other people on the wagon, even if RC didn't hammer, Surye would have been lynched. 2) What about the post where he calls IS scummy and the post where I call TF and Furcolow scummy? How is that not giving opinions of any other players in the game

1) If Surye would have been lynched anyway, then why did RC hammer regardless? If there was no reason behind RC's vote, then there wouldn't have been a vote. It was placed for a reason, and I think it's reasonable to ask what that reason was.

2) The post where he calls IS scummy? Are you referring to this?

I will vote IS as well.

I don't like what I've seen of him so far.

How does that contribute to the game? I don't care who you think is scum, I want to know

why

you think they're scum. My issue with ReaperCharlie's scarce content posts is the lack of "why" behind them. There is no explanation for his actions, and that is scummy. "X is scum" does not help. "Don't lynch me" does not help. Those do not contribute to the game. I am not judging your actions, Battousai, I am judging ReaperCharlie's. If you think your actions somehow magically absolve ReaperCharlie of his behavior, you are sadly mistaken.

Battousai, I want you to point me to specific ReaperCharlie posts and tell me how they have contributed to the game. When a player willfully does not contribute to the game, they are trying to hide so their words can not be turned against them. That is the underlying reason behind my original vote on RC, and continues to be my main point against him. People who lurk intentionally are scum. The Surye-hammer is only supportive evidence to the idea that RC is scum.

[BrianMcQueso]

For posterity, ReaperCharlie uses the word "re-read" in the following posts:

#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6 (three times)
#7

I don't see the point of making this argument against RC, but I also don't see the point of RC needing to lie to defend it. Especially when it's so damn easy to verify otherwise.

Wow IS is just asking for it tonight. Spread your cheeks wide broski.

Riddle me this: How is a vigilante that kills players they hate (rather than players likely to be scum) better for the town than say, a serial killer on the loose?

If you are killing pro-town players, you reduce the town's chances of winning.

Now I'm not saying IS is confirmed town by any stretch of logic, but ABR, if you really want to prove to me how good a scum hunter you are and want me to listen to what you have to say, give the town a scum corpse to wake up to tomorrow morning.

Or don't kill at all. That works for me as well.

It has occurred to me (far too late) that nothing I can say or do will convince Battousai that RC is a good lynch for today. It's silly for me to even try. On a related note, I'm not a fan of this hydra technology.

[BrianMcQueso]

I don't understand what makes you think IS is scum. I mean, your arguments against him have been so damn compelling:

IS calls bullshit on ABR's "Vezok scum slipped", who by the way wasn't scum after all.

ABR agrees with IS about Surye

"Internet Stranger. Scummy as all hell." No further explanation.

"Vote: Internet Stranger" No further explanation.

I'm willing to listen to reasons why you'd justify putting a bullet in InternetStranger. Is it just OMGUS? If there are other reasons, I might have missed them, but please show me the light.

[BrianMcQueso]

Wow. Stop being so lazy, rofl. If you aren't scum (which I highly doubt), then you're the epitome of anti-town.

I could say the exact same thing, word for word, for you ReaperCharlie. Seriously, how do you say something like that with a straight face?

@Battousai

Do you really want to play the "RC and I are the same slot" card? Fine. Then I demand you explain why your slot hasn't contributed at all this game. I demand to know why you've given us nothing but empty promises, refuse to contribute to the town's discussion, and do nothing but cover your own ass. It's a two-way street, pulling a stunt like that. If you want your posting to work to the benefit of RC, then you've gotta accept his liabilities.

Every time you have asked me questions, I've answered them. You ignore what I say, and you disagree with the points you don't ignore, but that doesn't mean I haven't wasted a thousand keystrokes replying to you. How dare you say I "finally" admit that I was voting RC for active lurking when that's what I've done since my original vote? Do you expect me to vote for Kison, and Furcolow, and LlamaFluff, and every single player I post a suspicion on? No. I won't do that. I can't do that. I am willing to state my suspicions of other players,

unlike you and your scumhydrabuddy

.

I can not wait for this day to be over soon enough. You will be dead this Sunday unless you and ReaperCharlie step up your games and convince this town that you're worth keeping alive. But neither of you seem to give a damn, and would rather focus on making me and SensFan look like crap. Is that how you want to spend your last few moments? Fine. Your efforts are in vain.

[BrianMcQueso]

I am willing to state my suspicions of other players, unlike you and your scumhydrabuddy.

I'd like to redact that part of my previous post. It's incorrect, and I shouldn't have said it.

[BrianMcQueso]

Battousai, I'll address your post later. I have to go beat Portal 2 and bake a pizza and other stuff. We've got plenty of time before deadline, so don't worry. But when I do respond, it will be GLORIOUS.

PREPARE FOR GLORY

[/glory]

[BrianMcQueso]

Just kidding But you wouldn't have let me get away with a stunt like that, would you?

If we get mislynched or vigged tonight, I am making damn sure that everyone notices what crap your case has been.

Scum are concerned with not getting lynched. Town are concerned with finding scum. These are the basic fundamental motivations of the two sides in a game of mafia. You are obsessed with me, and only because of my case against you. (And SensFan, but for the same).

Brian 1504- We didn't contribute because "we" were in quite a few games, working, and another game had priority since it had the BaM ruleset.

If you don't have time to post in a game, then you don't post in a game. It's really that simple. If RC's activity was scarce, because of real life issues, I'd understand. But if someone does post in game,

quite frequently

, and they state over and over that they don't have time to post in the game, or plan on posting later, and all in all post nothing else of relevance? Then they are lying about not having time for the game, don't wish to make their opinions known, and are scummy.

-> Do you not understand that train of thinking, or do you disagree with it?

You are voting RC because he is easy. Plain and simple. He's here, in your face, and doesn't require much effort.

That is a pathetic argument. Look at how much crap I've had to go through addressing your points. If I wanted an easy lynch, I would've abandoned my RC case years ago and hopped on this ToonFighter case or whatever other bandwagon was active at the time.

What is this that I'm not giving reads?

I'm mostly referring to ReaperCharlie. The fact that you and him are a hydra together is infuriating to me. The way you play (Battousai), despite your craplogic at times, is overall more towards town than scum. ReaperCharlie's play is textbook scum behavior. You are two vastly different players with vastly different playstyles, but yet I have to treat you as though you're the same? It just doesn't feel fair. It makes me want to go get a hydra buddy of my own that plays nothing like me so I can disregard things people say against me.

Also, you did not properly address my question about the Surye-hammer:

If Surye would have been lynched anyway, then why did RC hammer regardless? If there was no reason behind RC's vote, then there wouldn't have been a vote. It was placed for a reason, and I think it's reasonable to ask what that reason was.

If RC did not vote Surye, it is likely that Surye would have died anyway. So RC's vote was to make sure that particular lynch happened. Why is that? Your response:

If Surye would have been lynched? It's safe to say that in 4 hours, the wagon wouldn't have switched to furcolow and you know it. Yes you can ask for the reason, but you've already made up your mind.

...skirts the issue entirely. You say "The wagon wouldn't have switched to furcolow and you know it." I understand Furcolow wasn't going to be lynched. But that has nothing to do with

why did ReaperCharlie vote for Surye?

[BrianMcQueso]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

...wut.

1) Seriously?
2) Why are you revealing this now, so close to deadline?
3) Or why not later, after more investigations?
4) Does this information claim come with a role name?

[BrianMcQueso]

Brian, what do you think of Llama's recent claim?

If LF is serious about this, then we test the cop. I'd like a little more information, though. (see last post)

[BrianMcQueso]

Personally I would like everyone in the town to give their opinion on this tracker claim

[BrianMcQueso]

Llama, you haven't created a lot of legitimacy to the DeathNote wagon by lying to us. In makes me want to believe you less, not more.

[BrianMcQueso]

Dear Death Ninja (mostly the Battousai head, who is focusing on me, instead of the RC head, who is going through a "glorious" re-read),

I acknowledge one of my faults as a player is that I tunnel-vision. I've found that playstyle works for me because it draws reactions (not just from my target, but everyone has to agree, defend, or post other reactions). If I'm not playing that way, I second-guess myself on every suspicion and don't be productive in any sense, so I'm fine with it.

But for all my zeal, I can't lynch you by myself:

ReaperCharlie (8) - (BrianMcQueso, SensFan, Internet Stranger, Furcolow, Yosarian2, Ranmaru, Toon Fighter, Medicated Lain)

You need to look at the other seven people who are willing to string you up today as well. They have reasons for voting you. You need to address them, not just me.

Love,
BMQ

[BrianMcQueso]

Because I realize I have been focusing on ReaperCharlie too much, here are my thoughts on the rest of the players in this game:

Town Reads (in no particular order):

Ranmaru - I get the feeling of legitimate scumhunting from his posts. I am wary that Ranmaru asks a lot of questions of others while offering not too much from himself, but I chalk that up to nobody asking Ranmaru anything.

Albert B. Rampage - Proof that I can hate the way you play while acknowledging you're likely town. The claim seems to be holding up, and I trust ABR's instincts, despite his attitude. Just don't shoot townies, ok?

InternetStranger - It's hard to look past IS's playstyle to what he's actually saying, but it's something I've learned from playing with him before. I'd like to think of it not as playing off meta, but being able to translate IS-speak.

MrBuddyLee - I like the way he addressed my posts against ReaperCharlie. His pushing for explanation rather than defense of RC earns him a positive light.

Porochaz - Seems good.

Medicated Lain - Good townposting.

Scum Reads (from most scummy to least scummy):

DeathNinja - If I haven't made it clear why I thought DN/RC is scum by now, I'll never convince you.

bristep/Furcolow - His play Day 1 was very scummy, and Day 2 he disappeared. Nothing from his replacement yet. If I were to stop voting DeathNinja, I would most likely go back here.

LlamaFluff - Play has been scummy all game, but when he asked all pro-town programs to claim, I got a very, very bad vibe. You don't out the power roles for no reason. I don't like the "result on DeathNote" play either. I understand his stated reasons, but there's so many ways that could have gone wrong. And back in my day, we Lynched All Liars (TM).

AGar/Nobody Special - His blind defense of vezokpiraka (despite vezok's innocence) is questionable to me.

HezLucky - I really don't like the "if you disagree with me, you are scum" mentality. It's like he's trying too hard to affirm to us that he's town.

Cogito Ergo Sum - Cogito is hard to get a read on. His brief posting style allows him to hide.

Yosarian2 - I think Yos's reactions to the accusations are much stronger than the accusations being raised against him. It smells slightly defensive.

Kison - For his activity on the Surye wagon.

Primate - Likewise

Kublai Khan - Misrepresenting Kison's posting?

(Clearly, all of the above people aren't scum, but I'd rather be skeptical than trusting)

Neutral Reads (If I die, tell my wife I said hello)

Zindaras - From a strict theory point of view, town players want their opinions to be known while scum hide. Zindy posts a lot of info, pushing toward town. But at a certain point, too much information gets skipped over, overwhelming the town, which is a typical scum play.

ToonFighter - I don't agree with the wagon on him. There are votes without reason, and I'm not seeing the reeking of scumminess that others do. That being said, his play hasn't inspired my confidence in his townliness, either.

DeathNote - The way he reacted to Llama's attack on him was... very strange. He shrugs off the claim that there was a guilty investigation on him. Either he is a town that knows Llama is lying but doesn't feel the need to prove it, or he is a scum that knows there's nothing he can do to convince the town not to test the cop.

SensFan - His strong support of a RC lynch doesn't really do much for me one way or the other.

[BrianMcQueso]

BMQ you know that I'm probably giving you points (once I get around to it) for your terrible terrible list because it's clearly made up, right?

This is my "Caring About Hez's Point System" face ->

(or maybe )

So, what about my list is made up? Would you like to go into more detail about that? 'You are lying to the town about what you think of each player' is a pretty hefty accusation.

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum

My objection is not with defending yourself, but the degree that you do. Case in point, I put you as the 7th scummiest player on my list (it was ranked), with the following:

Yosarian2 - I think Yos's reactions to the accusations are much stronger than the accusations being raised against him. It smells slightly defensive.

The extent you go to defend yourself:

The whole "being defensive is a scum tell" thing is, and has always been, bogus. Everyone should always defend themselves in detail against any reasonable accusation (and against most unreasonable ones as wll).

If you're town, and someone's calling you scum, either their facts are wrong, their logic is wrong, they're jumping to conclusions incorrectly, or at the very least their argument is inconclusive. One of those things must be true, and whenever someone accuses you, it's your job to say why they're wrong.

I tend to consider failure to defend yourself properly a scumtell, and defending yourself to be null at worst.

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum; I was amazed how easy it was for a scum to get a mislynch using it. Step 1, attack someone. Step 2, when they defend themselves, call them defensive. Never failed.

You can find similar trends in your other posts. Someone will address you with a "I disagree with you"

Consider a hypothetical scenario where Player A says "I think B might be scum." and Player B flips out and posts a mile-long post defending himself from every possibility, finds a dozen other, scummier targets, and blasts Player A for even thinking that B might be scum. I hope we can agree that that level of defensiveness is scummy. So at some point, the defensiveness is a tell. Defending yourself isn't, but the degree to which you do is analyzable information.

[BrianMcQueso]

Defensivness isn't scummy, period. If you defend yourself against a mild attack with a mile long post, then that might be an overreaction, but it isn't at all scummy; there's no reason to think scum is more likely to do that then town.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. In my eyes, I see it as:

*The mafia's motivation is to survive as long as possible (a defensive motivation)
*The town's motivation is to find the scum before their time runs out (an offensive motivation).

I understand everyone has self-preservation (d) in mind, which also leads them to wanting to get others lynched rather than themselves (o), but I can't agree that there's absolutely no correlation between alignment and defensiveness.

[BrianMcQueso]

Hmmm. Then should a townie not defend against a scum's attack?

My objection is not with defending yourself, but the degree that you do.

[BrianMcQueso]

In fact, here. That reminds me. This is a list of people who are scummy, in relation to where the votes now sit.

Vote Count #18:

ReaperCharlie (8) - (

BrianMcQueso

,

SensFan

,

Internet Stranger

, Furcolow,

Yosarian2

, Ranmaru,

Toon Fighter

, Medicated Lain)
Toon Fighter (4) - (Kublai Khan,

Kison

, HezLucky, DeathNote)
DeathNote (3) - (

Porochaz

, Cogito Ergo Sum, Albert B. Rampage)
SensFan (2) - (ReaperCharlie, MrBuddyLee)
Porochaz (1) - (LlamaFluff)
Albert B. Rampage (1) - (Zindaras)
Ranmaru (1) - (Nobody Special)

Surprise, surprise. Most of the people you think are scum are the ones voting for you. You're not even being subtle about the OMGUS.

sigh All I wanted was for you to help the town, and this is as far away from that goal as possible.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish by voting yourself? So when you flip innocent you can go "I told you so!"? Yeah, brilliant. Nobody's ever thought of doing that before. You're not proving anything, except that you're a quitter. Thanks for playing.

WHAT??!?! This is exactly what I'm NOT doing, and <<surprise!>> it's exactly what you are VOTING me for! How can you want Furcolow to contribute, and feel like "sigh" when he doesn't, but on the flip side, when the same thing happens to me, suddenly I'm scummy for contributing? >> Huge contradiction here from BrianMcQueso. Very scummy. (-2 for Brian McQueso)

What I said yesterday to Furcolow over his self-vote doesn't apply to you. That's why I said it to him, not you. You didn't self-vote, and I never accused you of such. I originally voted Furcolow for not contributing, and yes, I voted you for not contributing. That's not contradictory. You're not scummy for contributing, that's the opposite of the problem we have.

Look, I'm willing to cut you some slack. You have made a genuine effort to make your opinions known, which is what I blasted you for. But let's be realistic here, RC. You're up to post #532 of a 1700+ post game. Even if you somehow posted a full post-by-post analysis up to now, the time it would take for the other players to read it, decide you're worth keeping around, unvoting to spare your life... probably isn't gonna happen by Sunday.

Skip the PBPA. That's not what I want, and I wouldn't expect any replacement to do that. What I want from you is what I've always asked of you: show us what you think of the other players in the town. You're wasting your time and ours; just cut to the end where you summarize what you think. If you did that, I won't be able to vote you for not making your opinions known.

In addition, what I would like from you is a battleplan. There really aren't that many hours between now and the deadline. If you could have your way, how would the rest of Day 2 pan out for you? Clearly, Step 1 is that people unvote for you. What happens next? What would you like the town to do? Someone has to be lynched, because No Lynch is bad for the town (and I hope that's something we can all agree on).

[BrianMcQueso]

Did you read the rest of my post? You might want to do that.

Also:

I have a memory like a steel trap.

Oops, I lied. Just remembered, he was half of Untrod Stranger, who I played with for one day out of Mafia w/the Hydras.

[BrianMcQueso]

I think SensFan is scum.
I think Yosarian2 is scum.
I think Toon Fighter is scum.
I think Internet Stranger is likely scum.
I think Medicated Lain is likely scum.
I think Kison is possible scum.
I think Porochaz is possible scum.
I think you are possible scum.

Why?

[/u]

And don't give me that "just read of all my other posts" excuse. That's from the first quarter of the posts of the game. Read the entire game, then make an overall opinion. Why are you making this harder than it needs to be?

#538 (BrianMcQueso): Worthless filler post. (-.5 BrianMcQueso).

Good god, that must put ReaperCharlie at like -∞

[BrianMcQueso]

You know what? I give up. I was trying to find a reason not to lynch you, DeathNinja. And what do you do?

1) You ignore it.

2) After I implore you to read what I'm saying, you half-ass it with no explanation.

3) And after I press you for explanation...

I think SensFan is scum.
I think Yosarian2 is scum.
I think Toon Fighter is scum.
I think Internet Stranger is likely scum.
I think Medicated Lain is likely scum.
I think Kison is possible scum.
I think Porochaz is possible scum.
I think you are possible scum.

Why?

[/u]

And don't give me that "just read of all my other posts" excuse.

Read all my other posts.

:trollface:

...you rub your uselessness in my face.

Again.

I'm done.

Now, the question is, do you agree or disagree with my reads thus far? And why or why not?

I disagree with what you're saying because I believe you are scum and lying to us. You want post numbers? How about "all of them".

Problem?

Now "I've given you exactly what you asked for". See the rest of you guys tomorrow.

[BrianMcQueso]

I think it is reasonable to say that LlamaFluff actually had a result on DeathNote all along.

...right?

vote: DeathNote

[BrianMcQueso]

sigh

Another reason I hate LlamaFluff's play regarding DeathNote yesterday. If he actually does have a result, it looks too sketchy. If he was making stuff up to us, it's not something he should have been doing as cop.

The four nightkills greatly concerns me. It's the third day and I already feel like we're running out of time.

MBL's death also hurts the town, but it adds legitimacy to the information he received. A messenger can't just hand out double-vote power, right? I wish we had been able to test if MBL actually had that ability, but I have a feeling there's something more going on here.

[BrianMcQueso]

unvote

I'm going to upset if Llama actually had a result on DeathNote, and that his play caused us to disregard it.

No. You can not quote either real or fabricated Mod supplied info.

Not the point of what I was saying. Look, as a messenger, you can say whatever you like to your target. But the message said that MBL would have double-vote power, something that is easily verifiable. If the message was false, it would be simple to prove so. Because of that, I'm led to believe that the double-vote thing is more likely to have been true.

I need to take a fresh look at this game, especially when it comes to ToonFighter.

[BrianMcQueso]

Didn't see the recent posts. I still stand by my vote for ReaperCharlie yesterday, his behavior was just ridiculously scummy. I know he's flipped town now, but I still felt like it was the right choice.

I can't help but notice that the entire Furc-wagon from D1 proceeded to jump on the equally poor Ninja-wagon on D2, while most of the Surye-wagon jumped on Toon Fighter. This is certainly very interesting.

Maybe it's just 2am locally and I'm intoxicated, but could you spell this out for me? What conclusions or speculation do you draw from that trend?

[BrianMcQueso]

Also, I just want to third my confirmation that if these messages are actually coming from an investigative source, you definitely need to step forward and confirm the two guilty results so we can start hitting bad guys and turning this game around.

[BrianMcQueso]

Based on Ranmaru's 1096, I would guess that LF's cop results were flavored "program" or "not program". It makes sense, given his question "are you a miller or program". It's something I should have picked up on earlier... that's not the kind of question I would have asked without any hint that there might have been pro-town programs in the setup.

The Keymaker claim is not very believable to me. He is such a minor character in the series, and there are so many vanilla townies. Maybe it's just me, but there are so many other characters in the Matrix I would include before The Keymaker. And how does that character's flavor translate to a one-shot protection?

I've been going over HezLucky's posts, to try to see his patterns as scum, and if there's any relation to ToonFighter. Overall, I get the read that Hez was trying to bus ToonFighter for his scummy play, while always seizing the opportunity to both make himself look good if TF was lynched and turned up scum, or to hop off the TF wagon if it looked like he could spare his partner. He also never missed an opportunity to tie TF's behavior to other players. The evidence I offer to support that claim is under the spoiler tag, because there's a lot of quotes:

Spoiler: HezLucky, A Retrospective

At the start of the game, he quickly ties TF to Yosarian after a post by ToonFighter that made him look bad:

The fact is, I could see Yos2/Toon Fighter scum based on above.

And every time he votes or suspects ToonFighter, he also includes another suspect, or leaves room for a vote swap:

Though offhand Toon Fighter's last post looks awful and SensFan looks just as bad for not calling him on it (despite being the very next post)

I want to vote either Toon Fighter or SensFan. TF has promised a post, and I am going to read it before deciding which.
Do I vote for the scummy-sounding scum, or the useless noscumhunting scum?

Yeah, at least Toon Fighter is giving me something to go on for later analysis.

Vote: SensFan

Ranmaru - I would _happily_ switch to Toon Fighter. See my points list. Not RC though. As we approach closer to the deadline, I'm happy to switch to TF. Happy with my vote on SensFan, though.

since we have a deadline. unvote, vote: toon fighter incase I do not get better by then

In Hez's post 1484, he builds a case on ToonFighter. In that same post, he tries to tie him to SensFan:

The combination of SensFan's interaction with Toon Fighter here (I thought it was ridiculous that SensFan would not call out Toon Fighter for such a ridiculous post -- he actually did, but not for the part of the post that
was ridiculous) and ToonFighter's distancing of SensFan in post #1316 (below) leads me to believe a possible connection between the two.

----later, in same post----

Oh look. Distancing from SensFan. Oh look, Toon Fighter is voting for the current lynch leader which is something he has largely done all day (when he's not busy plopping his vote onto someone useless).

And then Hez hops right off the TF wagon he had spent so much time building, but then hops right back on:

Llama needs to full-on claim right now then. None of this "oh but I forgot to mention this part of my role" incase he's wrong. He came out with it.

...while we're at it, so does DeathNote

Unvote, Vote: DeathNote

*sigh*

My preferred lynch is Toon Fighter.

Unvote, Vote: Toon Fighter

TL;DR: When a scum player keeps a player in their top two suspects the whole game while the other player changes, they are giving themselves the freedom to both lynch and not lynch their scum buddy, based on what is best for them at that point.

Also, ToonFighter does not mention "Hez" or "HL" or, from what I can tell, HezLucky in any way shape or form all game, save for one time when he's quoting something someone else said about Hez. That's odd, considering how much suspicion Hez had thrown at him. TF had addressed Amrun when Amrun posted a big case against him, but ignored Hez completely.

Now, I admit that all the stuff I just posted was tunneled on only viewing Hez in relation to TF and vice versa. I do need to go back and see how Hez treats the other players in this game, but I'm starting to feel fishy about TF.

He's already got 6 or so* votes on him though, so I want to discuss this before lynch.

*

(mod: vote count plz?)

[BrianMcQueso]

@Brian: You state that the keymaker claim isn’t believable to you. How is your reasoning for disbelieving it legit? Isn’t the key maker like some weak dude who needs protection? I saw the Matrix a long time ago but I don’t exactly remember.

What does so many vt’s have to do with a minor character though?

The more nameless vanilla townies in this game, the fewer named power roles there will be. If you're designing a Matrix game, then clearly Neo, Morpheus and Trinity are your first three power roles. If you add another power role to the game at that point, do you make it The Keymaker? Probably not, there are many other, better characters to include. Maybe it's just my negative opinion of The Keymaker character, but I would consider including The Oracle, The Architect, Link, Niobe, Seraph, Dozer, Cypher, Switch, Tank, Ghost or Seraph before I included The Keymaker. Sure, if you had a game with 8-10 power roles, you could find room for The Keymaker, but I don't think we have that many power roles in this game.

Also, The Keymaker was a very weak character that needed to be protected and eventually died. Does that sound like a role that would be able to stop kills against himself?

You say you should have picked up on it earlier, why do you think you didn’t? Does this mean you noticed it, but hesitated or something?

I wrote off the "Are you a miller?" question as a trap used to frighten scum. Either that or Llama had a result and was about to reveal it. I glazed over the "pro-town program" part of the question, but in retrospect that was a very unusually specific qualifier to include because there's no mention of pro-town programs at any point before that, even in the mod rules.

You had two town reads [Lain, Porochaz] without much explanation. Can you explain both of these further?

Medicated Lain: Lain analyzes wagons, defends her reasoning, calls people on their crap, doesn't tunnel, is willing to switch her vote but also justifies it instead of blind hopping, and all in all seems like a town hunting scum.

Porochaz: Poro isn't so much "Townly" in my eyes as he is "Not Scummy". He's a bit aggressive, but his logic seems sound, on the whole. I don't like his attitude but I tend to agree with what he's saying.

Honestly, it's easier to find concrete reasons why someone is scum rather than why someone isn't scum.

---

Does anyone have a reason that ToonFighter should be lynched? I think I'm the only one that's been against his lynch at any point and even I'm willing to string him up at this point. I'm holding off the lynch for more discussion, but it doesn't seem like there's any being had. TF doesn't even seem to be defending himself, which is peculiar. If I was at L-2, I'd spend more time defending myself than scumhunting other players, and I'm sure most of you would too.

[BrianMcQueso]

I'm really not liking this Kublai Khan claim (say that three times fast ). A Survivor role doesn't seem likely in this setup. And if it really was your goal to survive, you wouldn't have claimed survivor, would you? That, and sending deliberately false and distracting messages is very anti-town. If you wanted to remain innocuous, why didn't you send no message or send messages that wouldn't mislead the town? Calling someone a cult recruiter with your first message is very damning. Sure, we ignored it, but what if we hadn't, and lynched Kison? You'd be painting yourself into a corner, unable to claim yourself as messenger at that point, setting yourself up to have to lie to us.

I'm willing to trust the tracker over you at this point.

vote: Kublai Khan

I do agree that we need a full claim from Dramonic, though. A role name would be helpful, and if you can confirm any innocents, you definitely need to do that before we lose you tonight.

--

I don't know. I was thinking Brian is possibly scum.

Well I think the scum are left in [Brian, Porochaz, Lian]

Any particular reason? You didn't seem to have a problem with me before now.

--

We have 25 players. We know we have at least two Mafias. Albert is claimed Vig, but we still have one kill unaccounted for. I highly doubt we have a double vig situation, so the fourth kill is likely scum as well (one-shot killer is possible, but unlikely in my opinion, as it doesn't make sense given who died N2, and Smith would make perfect sense to fill the last scum role). That makes the likely setup, in my opinion, either three three-man Mafia groups or two four-man Mafia groups and a Serial Killer. In both cases, the number of anti-town roles is 9. That's already a lot, especially with a Town that's not stacked to the brim with power (Cop, Doc, Vig and Tracker are really good roles, but the amount of kills mean they're likely to die uselessly, as most of them have done). Town gets outnumbered really quickly (as early as Day 2) if you're an actual Survivor. So I don't see any room in this game for an actual survivor.

I don't see the setup as having three 3-man Mafia groups. That's a bit stacked against the town (36% of the game is scum?), and I can't think of a third anti-town group flavor-wise. If it was two 4-man groups, who are the two extra members of the Twins group? Clearly, The Merovingian is on that team, but I can't think of any other characters that would be. Persephone was more pro-town, if anything. If it's a setup with 3 Agents, Merovingian + Twins, and a serial killer Agent Smith, that makes 7 anti-town (28%). That seems reasonable to me, also considering our low number of power roles.

[BrianMcQueso]

First, voting to lynch me is pretty much the same move as voting for a no-lynch.

If you're telling the truth, of course. And even then, I would argue it's better than a no-lynch because you've shown us you're not interested in helping the town.

Second, if either of the scum teams think I'm a member of the other scum team, then I'm proper fucked.

Which means your behavior is not consistent with a survivor.

Third, stuff like "If we go down to 7 with 3 Matrix scum and a Survivor, they win." is offensively false. That's not an auto-loss, that scenario just makes me a king-maker unless one of the town votes wrongly. Stop lying.

Which means we are better off not keeping you around.

BrianMcQueso wrote:
I'm willing to trust the tracker over you at this point.
vote: Kublai Khan

All the tracker did was prove that I was the one sending messages.

You targeted a person who wound up dead. You have to understand how that looks.

Kublai Khan, explain to me why you've been sending messages to players that are lies. You yourself said that you had the option of not sending messages. Why were you doing things that hurt the town? Why are you being deceitful to the town with your messages?

[BrianMcQueso]

If you're telling the truth, of course. And even then, I would argue it's better than a no-lynch because you've shown us you're not interested in helping the town.

Except the part about me voting for scum-Toon Fighter for 2 days. It's a minor detail though. Please don't bother mentioning it.

If your argument for helping the town is that you lynched Toon Fighter, I offer rational explanations as to why you, as scum, might do that:

a) There are (at least) two scum groups in this game. You might be in a different scum group.
b) Bussing a partner.

Also, my "you've shown us you're not interested in helping the town" was partially in reference to:

I thought that if I was too accurate in hunting scum, they might want to eliminate me.

...and the fact that you chose to send lies through your messages. Sure, you got reactions. You could have gotten reactions without lying to the town. How does sending lies to other players help advance your (claimed) win condition? If you were trying to lay low, why didn't you just... lay low? Why instigate, which is an anti-town thing to do?

(useless messages my ass. You're all going to find more scum thanks to me..)

I also challenge this claim. Show me how your false messages have led us to finding more scum.

[BrianMcQueso]

Dramonic, it's up to you what you want to reveal about your passive. Bear in mind that you're a likely nightkill target tonight, and dead men can't explain.

I don't quite understand the "ejected from the Matrix" mechanic (in terms of gameplay, not flavor), but clear up one thing for me: you're not responsible for that fourth nightkill on Night 2, right?

[BrianMcQueso]

What made you think sending false messages to the town was a good idea? For reactions? How does fishing for reactions advance your win condition? All it does is make you look scummy. C'mon KK, you're a veteran enough player to know that lying to the town is bad.

[BrianMcQueso]

I was skeptical about the messages. Did you see me go after Kison when he was labeled a cult recruiter? I was more open about the double-voting thing because it would be so damn easy to verify or disprove...but then it became unverifiable. Did you want me to vote him anyway? Would you prefer if I had followed your terrible lies, despite the fact that you had coincidentally labeled CES as a scum? Should I have tried to lynch Kison too, for being a "cult recruiter"? Would that have been the right play for me?

You can't tell me your messages are lies and then in the next breath say that I should have followed them.

You're a veteran enough player to know that "LYING IS BAD" isn't as clear-cut as it was when you were a newbie.

It's true. LlamaFluff lied to the town (or did he?), and he turned out to be a cop. That still doesn't make lying to the town OK. Am I supposed to tolerate this kind of behavior? Let's just play Mafia where everyone lies. That'll make it much easier for to find the scum.

How does what you did advance your win condition? One moment you're telling us you're just trying to survive to endgame, and then you tell us you're trying to not hunt scum because it would draw attention to yourself, and then next you're telling us you

were

trying to hunt scum by gauging reactions. Make up your mind: what in the hell are you trying to accomplish?

[BrianMcQueso]

We don't need check-in posts, we need opinions.

Preferably about Kublai Khan's claim and the discussion that resulted from it, but I'll take anything you guys got at this point.

Here's the quick version for those catching up:

Dramonic (#1966) has a tracking result on Kublai Khan.

Kublai Khan (#1970) claims Oracle, the messanger that has been sending the strange messages to other players. He claims his win condition as a neutral survivor, winning as long as he survives to endgame.

Zindaras (#1979) doesn't buy it. (He voted for KK a few posts previous)

BrianMcQueso (#1989) doesn't believe it.

The rest is discussion about the believability of KK's claim.

[BrianMcQueso]

Nice. Whenever I'm done my work, you guys are planning to lynch me anyways.

Given that I don't have the same WC as any of you guys, I'm suddenly wondering why I'm spending so much time combing so much text only to lose the game as soon as I produce the fruits of my labor.

I agree with you on this. I wouldn't be motivated to put in that effort if I knew there was a lynch hanging over your head. But bear in mind, Zindaras doesn't speak for everyone in the town. Of course, we still don't know how many of the other people in the town feel about you at this point.

You don't need to give a "glorious" full game analysis. Please don't pull a ReaperCharlie. You said that your false messages lead to reactions-- reactions that should point us to scum. I'm asking you to back that claim, showing that you helped the town instead of just plain deceiving us.

KK, your first message was the most realistic of the three. If you are scum, then you would have sent that message in an attempt to get us to lynch Kison. If we had, then you successfully directed a lynch and could "retire" the ability, since the town wouldn't fall for that twice. Not a bad scum power, I'd say. When we didn't lynch Kison, you could just send less believable messages in an attempt to adapt to the "it's just nonsense" mentality the town had already provided you, giving yourself the escape plan you're now presenting us.

Basically, I'm saying that your messages didn't become "nonsense" until we had already determined they were worth ignore. Because you started with a message we could have taken seriously, that makes me believe that you were actually trying to get Kison lynched.

[BrianMcQueso]

 Reaction to vezokpiraka's VT claim:

Your meta seems to be well established with a few of these other players, which means you either could be playing consistently or choosing to abuse it. We have no way of knowing which is the case. Both are possible, and while that style of play is usually damaging to the town, it is starting discussion. I suppose there is some degree of merit in that.

 
Solid fence-sitting. Proceeds to vote Primate in that same post then lambasts LlamaFluff for thinking that vezokpiraka is town in his next post (Post #2 Real #98).

You can call it fence-sitting if you like. When vezok claimed VT in pre-game, I did not think it automatically made him scum, and I

certainly

didn't think it cleared him innocent (which is why I attacked LlamaFluff for declaring him 'obv town'). If not using vezok's premature claim to immediately determine his alignment is fence-sitting, so be it.

Reaction to Note #1 (Kison is Cult Recruiter to LlamaFluff):

a) Llama is telling the truth, there is amnesiac cop, and that cop nailed a cult leader.
b) Llama is telling the truth, but the information was from an anti-town role trying to trip him up.
c) Llama is lying.

{...snip...}

Unless there is a possibility I'm missing (admittedly possible), we either have a "two vigilantes, one scum group and a cult" setup; or Llama is lying.

Strange post. He covers 3 possible setups, then concludes with a false dichtomy that strongly implies that LlamaFluff is lying (due to it being against an unlikely scenario).

It is looking like Option B. Llama was telling the truth about his result, and the message he received wasn't true. I believed then that only an anti-town player would send a deceitful misdirection to him, and I still believe that now.

Re: Toon Fighter
Amrun tunnelled on Toon Fighter fairly extensively. Amrun died for that, then 3 quick votes for Toon Fighter sprung up. BrianMcQueso answers by starting his anti-ReaperCharlie campaign. He hounded ReaperCharlie/Battousai/Death Ninja all day. Stopping to make posts like this as he goes:

I straight up do not understand the votes on Toon Fighter. The votes on him are from Cogito (who provided no reason for his vote), Kublai Khan (who provided no reason for his vote), and LlamaFluff (who provided no reason for his vote but then later unvoted and it wasn't reflected in the vote count I think). Three votes, no explanations. How does that even happen?

After Death Ninja do provide content, BrianMcQueso leaves his vote, making is a retro-de-facto OMGUS vote.

Day 3 he jumps on the Toon Fighter bandwagon.

I'll address the blue sentence in a moment. But in the rest of this paragraph, you say that I'm scum for not voting for ToonFighter, and then you say I'm scum for voting for ToonFighter. I don't think you can have it both ways. I wasn't happy with the wagon on TF because nobody was justifying their votes. I even said that, in the post you quoted. How does it make me scum to ask people to give their reasons for bandwagonning someone?

As for the

blue

part of your post, there is

no way

my vote on Death Ninja was OMGUS. You clearly don't understand what OMGUS even means. ReaperCharlie/DeathNinja at no point ever voted for me. He suspected me, sure, but he suspected a lot of people, and with more severity. My vote for him happened

before

he suspected me. If anyone's guilty of OMGUS-like behavior here, it was RC. Or you, for that matter. KK, if you really thought all of this behavior is scummy, you might have mentioned it before now, not after I'm voting for you.

I know I've explained this before, but I suppose I should go through it again. ReaperCharlie was being unhelpful to the town with his active lurking. He later provided content, but (in my opinion) it didn't redeem his earlier behavior. When he continued to be arrogant and shove his uselessness in my face, I wasn't willing to take my vote off him.

Demands a full claim from dramonic when none is necessary.

Is that anti-town? The scum have all the information they need: that Dramonic is a tracker and is worth killing. They don't care what his character name is or anything else to do with his role. That information doesn't help the scum, but it could help the town in judging future claims. Sure it's not

necessary

to have the extra info, but it helps us. It certainly couldn't hurt us.

[BrianMcQueso]

I'm not sure what there is left to do for today. I (and others) have raised points against Kublai Khan, and he's responded. He's raised points against me, and I've responded. There's still a lot of inactivity, though.

There is merit to discussing ABR's potential vig targets, but in my opinion I'd say let ABR shoot who he wants. He's killed 1 scum and 2 town so far, but it's probably better to let him make the decision instead of being influenced by people of unknown alignment.

Is there anything else I can address? I'm not sure what else I can do right now.

[BrianMcQueso]

There's this. I don't think your defense was particularly strong there.

~snip~

I wasn't on the ToonFighter lynch, that's true. I wanted to be, but did not vote TF because I did not want a quicklynch. TF then voted for himself, securing what I was trying to avoid.

There is my defense to the "you weren't on the TF lynch" attack. I know that I wasn't on the lynch, and I understand that saying I would have voted for him isn't worth much. But I was not interested in quicklynching TF, especially given my hesitation towards his wagon on previous days.

[BrianMcQueso]

No, what I think reflects poorly on you is your vote for Death Ninja when he was up against Toon Fighter, and your early vote for DeathNote at the start of the next day (first much more than last).

I still stand by my DeathNinja vote. His play was terrible and I honestly thought he was scum. If you think that makes me look scummy, so be it. I'll live with that.

My vote on DeathNote at the start of the next day was because I was interpreting LlamaFluff's Day 2 stunt as a breadcrumb since he was then confirmed as a cop by death. When a cop dies, you go back and look at their suspects.

[BrianMcQueso]

Obviously scum-driven wagon

Well you slid by without contributing or voting yesterday, so if you think we should've lynched someone else you should have said something then.

Did my hearing aide just fall out it or did Zindaras just claim scum.

Yes, but the claim was to be the last member of the Merovingian mafia. If that's true and both scum are 4-person teams, then there are 3 left on the Agents side and a Zindaras lynch loses us the game. That's why Zindy is claiming.

Here is a possibility I'm considering: There are 3 scum on each team, and Zindy is an Agent trying to set up a situation we don't lynch her.

We still haven't explained the 4th nightkill on Night 2, but we've only had 3 nightkills on every other night. There might have been cross-kills, there might have been a one-shit nightkill from something, I don't know.

I'm a VT. Kinda frustrated that we're on Day 5 and still don't quite know what the setup looks like overall. We may be lynch-or-lose here and not even know it.

[BrianMcQueso]

I admit I don't have a perfect recollection of this game, but do we have an explanation yet for the 4th NK during one of the Nights?

We don't, and it's a big problem. It's the major source of credibility to a three anti-town group setup. If it's a 3-3-1 setup, then Zindy is lying and is the correct lynch. But if there's some other explanation to the extra N2 kill and it's a 4-4 setup, then Zindy is telling the truth and we absolutely can't lynch her.

Also, Zindy, if we don't lynch you today, but do lynch Matrix Scum, will you agree to No Kill tonight?

There's no way Zindy actually agrees to that, despite whatever she says. Her claim definitively makes her either a Merovingian scum or an Agent scum.

Also, I love Brian's type. One-shit nightkills all around.

Stay tuned for a post breaking down all the hypothetical scenarios.

[BrianMcQueso]

The following theories make these assumptions:

*The setup is either 4-4 or 3-3-1.
*Albert B. Rampage is the pro-town vigilante he claims to be.
*We have no other pro-town power roles.
*If Zindaras is telling the truth and is Merovingian, the Agents kill her tonight.
*If Zindaras is lying, the Serial Killer already knows this and will use that knowledge to their advantage.

T is town (including Albert), M is Merovingian (Zindaras), A is Agent, S is Serial Killer

---

Spoiler: 4-4 Setup

If the setup is two, 4-member groups and one of the anti-town groups is responsible for the extra N2 kill (the Agents, because if it was Merovingian's group Zindaras would have claimed that to lend credibility to her claim), then the setup is T T T M A A A

1) If we lynch M, then the setup is TTT AAA and the town loses even if T kills A.
2) If we lynch T, then A kills M and Agents win, even if T kills A.

Yes, it's obvious that if it's a 4-4 setup and we lynch someone other than an Agent, the Agents win. So here's what happens if we lynch an Agent:

3) If we lynch A the setup is TTT M AA, but we might think it's the setup in (7) below because we haven't confirmed it. A kills M and the setup becomes TTT AA, with M and T's kills left to go.

3a) If M and T kill two As, town wins.
3b) If M and T kill one A and one T, it becomes TT A and it's lynch-or-lose.
3c) If M and T kill the same A, it becomes TTT A. We no-lynch into a lynch-or-lose.
3d) If T doesn't kill or kills M, and M kills T, it becomes TT AA and town loses.
3e) If T doesn't kill or kills M, and M kills A, it becomes the same as 3c (lynch or lose).

Spoiler: 3-3-1 setup

If the setup is two, 3-member groups and there is a Serial Killer, then the setup is T T T T S A A

4) If we lynch S, the setup is TTTT AA. Albert kills Zindaras, who is clearly an Agent now that the S has been revealed. A kills T, most likely Albert. Setup becomes TTT A. We no-lynch into lynch-or-lose.

5) If we lynch T, the setup is TTT S AA. There are 5 targets for T to kill, 5 targets for S to kill, and 4 targets for A to kill, or 100 different nightkill combinations. Forgive me for not going through all of them, but in most cases the town needs a cross-kill to have a chance to win. If S decides it's in their interest to kill Zindaras, the setup is TTT S A, and:

5a) If A kills S, the setup is TTT A. Either we no-lynch into a lynch-or-lose, or T kills A into a win, or T kills T into the same lynch-or-lose situation.
5b) If A kills T, the setup is TT A S. Whether or not T kills T or Day starts with TTAS, the town can't lynch. We no-lynch and our only chance of victory is a cross-kill.

6) If we lynch A (Zindaras), the setup is TTTT S A. There are 5 targets for each of the 3 killing roles, for 125 different nightkill combinations. However, if either of the scum get hit by a nightkill, the town easily forces a lynch-or-lose situation.

7) If we lynch A (not Zindaras), the setup is TTTT S A, but we might think it's the setup in (3) above because we haven't confirmed it.
7a) If S and A kill two townies and T either doesn't kill or crosskills, the setup is TTSA. The town can't lynch a scum and win, so they no-lynch and pray for a crosskill. Low chances of winning this.
7b) If S and A kill a townie and there is one cross-kill, the setup is TTT and one scum. If the scum is Zindy and there's a body of an SK, we lynch Zindy and town wins. If the scum is SK, we no lynch into lynch-or-lose.

If I'm straight-up wrong about anything under either of those spoiler tags, please please point it out.

Here's what to take away from this:

The only ways we guarantee a loss with today's lynch are:
a) Zindaras is telling the truth and we lynch Zindaras.
b) Zindaras is telling the truth and we lynch a townie.
c) Zindaras is telling the truth, we lynch an Agent, and Zindaras kills a townie (with ABR either not killing or double-killing Zindaras).

It is very likely we lose if:
a) Zindaras is an Agent, and we lynch a townie.
b) Zindaras is an Agent, and we lynch the other Agent.

So, even if Zindaras is telling the truth and this is a 4-4 setup, we still only win if we lynch an agent and then one or both of ABR and Zindaras kill an Agent tonight.

It is my

opinion

(I'd like to think that everything above is more fact-ish) that we should take the chance and lynch Zindaras. If Zindy is telling the truth and we lynch someone else, we're still pretty screwed. I think our best shot at winning this game is to assume Zindaras is lying. It's also the only explanation we have for that 4th N2 kill.

[BrianMcQueso]

Did I miss in the spoilers if you account for Zindy being an SK?

Erm, nope, it hadn't crossed my mind. I mean, if Zindy is the SK, it's a really bad move drawing that much attention to herself. She had no reason to put herself in a position like that... but hell, for the sake of completeness:

3-3-1 setup, Zindaras is SK. Setup is still TTTTSAA

(Lynch Zindaras)

The setup is TTTT AA. If Albert doesn't kill, we got to TTT AA and must lynch correctly twice or lose. If Albert kills T, we lose. If Albert kills A, the setup is TTT A and we no lynch into lynch-or-lose. Basically, Albert's vigilante kill becomes the first lynch in our "lynch twice right or lose" situation.

[This is not a good situation for us, but we don't automatically lose]

(Lynch Townie)

The setup is TTT S AA:

{Lynch Townie, Agents kill Townie} The setup is TT S AA:
> If Albert kills Zindy, Agents win.
> If Albert kills Town, Agents win.
> If Albert doesn't kill, we can't afford to lynch a scum in a TT S A setup. We no-lynch. The scum obviously shoots Zindy, because killing a town results in defeat or draw. If Zindy kills town, Agents win. If Zindy kills the Agent, town wins. Either way, Zindy doesn't win.
> If Albert kills Agent, then the setup becomes TT S A with Zindy's kill still happening:
>> If Zindy kills the other Agent, town wins (lynch Zindaras obviously)
>> If Zindy cross-kills to the same agent, see "If Albert doesn't kill", above.
>> If Zindy kills town, setup is T S A. Like the above situation, we no-lynch and have a 50% chance of winning based on who Zindy kills. Zindy can't win.

{Lynch Townie, Agents kill Zindaras} The setup is TTT AA with Zindy's kill still happening. Based on that kill as well as Albert's, we could end up winning, losing, or lynch-or-lose. Either Agents or town can win at this point, but not Zindaras.

Therefore, if we lynch a townie today, Zindaras is not winning as Serial Killer, no matter what.

[Agents likely win, but if Albert hits an Agent or doesn't shoot, we have a chance to pull it out]

(Lynch Agent)

The setup is TTTTSA. Like situation (7) in my last post, we still haven't confirmed that it's a 3-3-1 setup.

If S and A kill two townies and T either doesn't kill or crosskills, the setup is TTSA. The town can't lynch a scum and win, so they no-lynch and pray for a crosskill. Low chances of winning this.

If S and A kill two townies and T kills Zindaras, the setup is T T A, lynch or lose.

If S and A kill two townies and T kills A, the setup is T T S, town wins.

If S and A kill two townies and T kills T, the setup is TSA. If that remaining townie is Albert, the scum are in a bad position. It becomes interesting with a confirmed town, giving each side a chance to win:

Spoiler: Mexican Standoff

If both scum shoot Albert, the winner is whoever Albert didn't shoot.
If both scum shoot each other, town wins.
If Scum A shoots Albert and Scum B shoots Scum A, the only survivor is Scum B (unless Albert kills him, in which case everyone is dead).

If S and A kill a townie and there is one cross-kill (likely from Agent shooting SK), the setup is TTT and one scum. If the scum is Zindy, we lynch Zindy and town wins. If the scum is Agent, we no lynch into lynch-or-lose.

If S and A crosskill, town simply wins.

[Decent odds for us if we lynch Agent here.]

[BrianMcQueso]

@Zindaras Did the Merovingian mafia have any powers other than your self-protect?

[BrianMcQueso]

Also, I've got my Commuting thing so it's a gambit for Matrix scum to kill me. I'd think they'd always prefer Albert anyway. I know I would. You didn't really take that into account in your analysis, Brian. It's actually the main reason that this scenario still has an okay chance of working out for me.

You're right, I completely forgot about that power and didn't take it into account. That adds a rather large monkey wrench into the analysis. It's also a very powerful thing to claim this late in the game, whether you have it or not.

Also, we're not interested in making things work out for you. And I'm certainly not going to trust you to "your word". It's nothing against you as a person, but please,

this is Mafia.

Kison's post is right-- it is a realistic possibility that you are pulling this gambit just to secure the final, game-ending lynch.

That's bullshit Kison, as I've said many times already, Zindaras would have been counterclaimed if he was lying.

No. Zindy's claim isn't the kind of thing that can be counterclaimed against. There are no more members of the Merovingian scum to claim against her. Either she's either the last member, or there are no more members.

[BrianMcQueso]

If it's 4-4-x, Zindaras is the last Merovingian and nobody will counterclaim.

If it's 3-3-x, Zindaras is a member of a 3-person team and claims, knowing that all 3 members of the other team are dead and nobody will counterclaim.

Nobody will counterclaim in both situations, so it doesn't prove if Zindaras is telling the truth or not.

[/genderneutral]

[BrianMcQueso]

On a different note:

Given the fact that we were a four-man team, I highly doubt that there are only three Matrix Mafiates. Three Agents

and the Architect

makes sense anyway.

What makes you think The Architect is in this game, and part of the Agents team?

[BrianMcQueso]

I'm just trying to acknowledge both possibilities. Heck, I think I was even the first one to suggest it might be a gambit. It's what I believe, mostly out of hope. If there are still 1 Merovigian and 3 Agents, then the scum outnumber the town, and I'm not happy with that. If it's 3-3, we still have a chance, and I'd like to make the play that has the best chances of a town victory.

Like I said before, if it's a 4-4 setup, we're pretty screwed and can only win if we lynch and vigilante perfectly. It's not something I have a lot of faith in.

[BrianMcQueso]

It would make sense. Four-man team with a GF (like we were), Architect seems like the quintessential Godfather for the Matrix. Besides the Agents, I think it's the only robot-controlled program that we even see in the movies.

I understand how The Architect would make sense as Godfather, but your naming him came out of nowhere. I went back and searched all player's posts. The only other times "Architect" was mentioned was by me (listing a number of characters that might be in the setup) and by Mastermind of Sin (in a vote count quote).

My opinion of the "Agents" team was that it was made up of Agents. Speculating that there is an Architect... feels like a slip.

[BrianMcQueso]

If Albert is the serial killer, then good on him for putting himself in the best position to win this game. There's no way we can lynch a claimed Neo.

Alright, Zindaras, say I believe your claim. Say we're even skilled or lucky enough as a town to lynch an Agent, and the setup becomes TTT M AA. The Agents kill you tonight, and you lose, unless you have your Commuter power up. I'm assuming you do, otherwise you just got yourself killed. If you don't, you get nightkilled the next night.

You can't win this game, Zindaras.

You know it, too, and are trying to negotiate a "happily ever after". The thing is, we have no reason to accept that deal, even if you keep your word. Town can win this game. We also can't trust you to help us find Agents, because of the

possibility

that you might be an Agent pulling a gambit. You offer us nothing.

I'm starting to think that we don't win by lynching you, though. Town's best option is to lynch an Agent and vig-kill Zindaras. If you can commute and dodge the kill, you're confirmed. If you're lying, we vig'd an Agent. If you don't have your commuter up this night, it's like we lynched you anyway.

If we lynch an Agent today,

it doesn't matter if Zindaras is telling the truth or not

, and the town still has a chance to win. It removes the guesswork as to what the setup is. I think that's where we should focus our efforts.

[BrianMcQueso]

because it sets up Town to get blown out even if he's telling the truth

Sorry, I can't visualize these things without writing them out ^_^;

Spoiler: Agent Lynched, Zindaras self-protects

Setup now: TTT M AAA (assuming Zindaras is telling the truth)

Lynch Agent: TTT M AA

Town attempts vig on M, fails.
Agents kill T, since M is being targeted anyway.

TT M AA, with Zindaras's kill left over.

Zindaras kills T (50% chance): T M AA, no lynch, Matrix wins no matter what.

Zindaras kills A (50% chance): TT M A, no lynch, A kills M (no protection), town only wins if M kills A (33% chance).

You're right. Man, we're just in an awful spot no matter what, eh?

[BrianMcQueso]

Actually, those numbers are a bit off because all the kills happen simultaneously, so M and A might cross-kill? But that's unlikely, and only results in us getting a lynch or lose scenario, I think.

[BrianMcQueso]

I would really like to hear more from DeathNote and Porochaz. (I have a good feeling as to where Kison stands).

Albert: You're the only confirmed town we have. You need to be amazing right now. You want to lynch Porochaz? Why? I'm all ears, I need an opinion that I know isn't trying to manipulate me.

[BrianMcQueso]

You're cute, Brian. Very cute. Trying to redirect the Matrix's kill towards me.

Gee, ya got me. You managed to decipher that I would rather have the Agents kill a member of the other anti-town group than a member of the town.

But, no. Matrix has much more of an incentive to kill Albert the coming night. If things go awry, they'd rather be stuck with me (in a PD) than with Albert (in a 3-player endgame with a 50/50 lynch). No. What I needed (and why I claimed) is to make it to PD intact. Town has no incentive to kill me (most importantly, I need to make sure Albert doesn't kill me). Essentially, Matrix has to kill me the coming night or the night afterwards. All I need to do is time the Commute perfectly and make the right decision in the PD endgame and I can win.

Do the Agents have a great motivation to kill Albert? Yes.

Would they rather be stuck with you than Albert in an endgame scenario? I don't know, that's a strategic choice they have to make, and I can't read their minds.

Town has no incentive to kill you? Absolutely not. Despite what you might think otherwise, Zindaras, you're an enemy to the town, and an obstacle to our victory. Sure, we share the goal of "Agents must die", but it ends there. I'm not interested in helping you win this game.

Sorry... I would post more but I just dont see town winning. I think this is a scum vs scum game right now.

Then replace out. We can't force you to contribute, and we can't afford to mislynch you on that. Please either play the game or let someone else be useful in your place.

[BrianMcQueso]

Hey Albert, can you shoot Kison tonight? I think he's an Agent because of his "let's lynch Zindaras no matter what" attitude. I think he knows a lynch on Zindy would win him the game. He also suggested the setup as 4-4-1, which is downright ludicrous. He knows he's lying to us. (My $.02)

vote: Porochaz

[BrianMcQueso]

Porochaz, ABR obviously isn't a daycop. He was joking, but it looks like you're the one who took him seriously, not me. However, he is the closest thing to a confirmed innocent the town has, and I'm willing to trust him.

The part where I "go back and look at the game" led to me looking at Kison's play. During Day 5, after Zindaras's claim, Kison does not stop to think about the repurcussions if Zindaras is telling the truth about the claim. Believe the claim or not, in a situation like this, you have to understand how perilous our situation is. After the claim, all Kison does is blindly say that Zindaras is lying and that we should definitely lynch him. His play is reckless and seems desperate to push a Zindy lynch. Who would be in the best benefit of a no-questions-asked Zindaras lynch? An Agent.

A 4-4-1 setup is ridiculous. I hope you agree with that, Porochaz. If Kison had stopped to consider how unbalanced that would be, he would realize it too. But he doesn't have to, he just has to get other people to think that might be the case. All he has to do make statements, hope nobody will call him out on them, and secure the final lynch he needs to win.

He is playing like an Agent would in this endgame scenario.

I just noticed something with BMQ. He says the setup of 4-4-1 s ridiculous but in the same breath suggests Kison should be shot for suggesting we should lynch Zindy no matter what. If the setup is 3-3-1 then Zindy IS lying and is confirmed Matrix scum.

You say that my post doesn't make sense. Yes, if it's a 3-3-1 setup then Zindy is lying and is an Agent. Yes, I think 4-4-1 is impossible. But then you say if I'm not playing to either of those setups, I'm not making sense. It's a false dichotomy, and you don't acknowledge the possibility that it's a 4-4 setup and Zindaras is telling the truth.