Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm

[LlamaFluff]

We arent policy lynching vezok for the VT claim.

Claiming like that isnt as big of a tell as my normal VT claim tell, but its a pretty good one and makes him more likely then not town. Getting a few cleared players who are "weaker" players is great, since it really causes headaches for scum trying to figure out who needs to be lynched.

Given that this game is devoid of ani, and no "rage players" its not a policy lynch game (even if there was a N0 vig vezok wouldnt be the kill)

[LlamaFluff]

@Poro - No. Ani is the single worst player that is still active on the site, and if he is not policy lynched I will replace out of any game that has him in it. I dislike playing with him to that great of an extent. The only player who is worse then him is Nat, other then that I would rather play with any player past or present that I can think of.

Also vezok kinda knows my VT tell, but he also knows thats not how its applied. He basically has just claimed VT, he plays like scum, we lynch him, he plays like town, we dont lynch him. Very simple.

[LlamaFluff]

Agree with lynching Vezok for effectively narrowing down the PR list.

Disagree with doing it quickly. There is no benefit beside seeing who jumps on the wagon.

So you want a policy lynch of vezok, but you want to draw it out?

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.

Why not vote then?

As for Vezok claiming VT, meh I dont really believe him, nor am I willing to buy primates read that he only does that as town.

Can you explain your read on vezok then? You say that you dont believe him so you think that he is scum?

You misinterpreted my post Agar. Vez has narrowed down the PR list and is who I want to lynch. Of course, someone else could become more scummy and change my opinion which is the reasoning for not wanting a quicklynch as suggested earlier. Quick days help scum, not town.

So what is "scummier" because this all seems more or less arbitrary to me now. You already called him scum for claiming VT *sigh* and say its because it makes it obvious he is not a PR, but running someone else up does the exact same thing correct?

Good early wagons are DN and CPE

Vote DN

[LlamaFluff]

Vez has narrowed down the PR list and is who I want to lynch. Of course, someone else could become more scummy and change my opinion which is the reasoning for not wanting a quicklynch as suggested earlier.

BTW- i want it drawn out so I can see reactions to lynching Vez. *Cough* Llama *Cough*

Which is it?

Your first one says you would be happy with other lynches, now you say you arent going to budge but want reactions. If someone is for sure dead, all actions regarding that slot are essentially null once the sentence is signed.

[LlamaFluff]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

[LlamaFluff]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

Really? Damn, I wish I had claimed VT in pregame so I could be "near for sure" innocent in your eyes. This is Mafia, pal. People can lie (seriously).

Experience shows it comes from town from scum at a rate slightly more then game average, so its a town tell. Players like vezok are also near unreadable due to the erratic nature of their play, so I prefer to just lock them in as a slight read early and just make sure they sheep a town read. If I get a town read on vezok and vezok sheeps me or someone else I think is town the entire game, I am happy with it.

Even though this isnt the exact situation my "dont lynch the VT" tell applies, I think that there is enough going here to call vezok town.

What did the VT claim do for your read on him?

[LlamaFluff]

Early VT, miller, etc... you just take them at face value and progress from there. If vezok does nothing scummy, we DONT LYNCH HIM. Just running a lynch through for the claim is going to just waste the day, and I challenge someone to show how its a scum tell. Using "he might lurk" isnt a scumtell either, since the word 'might' is in there.

"By claiming vanilla on the first page he eliminates the possibility of ever claiming a role later in the game" on the other hand, is a minor town tell.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont buy that Vezok-scum realized that VT has no name and no role attached to it, but missed that they have an anti-machine win condition.

unvote
Vote Toon Fighter

I am going to be a little distant these next few days as I have finals tomorrow and wednesday then I am moving thursday.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont buy that Vezok-scum realized that VT has no name and no role attached to it, but missed that they have an anti-machine win condition.

unvote
Vote Toon Fighter

I am going to be a little distant these next few days as I have finals tomorrow and wednesday then I am moving thursday.

Confused by this. You think Vezok is scum, but voting Toon Fighter?

No, I think vezok is town. I am showing that vezok-scum would have had to read the sample role, notice that there was no name of character, no physical role attached to the role, and then missed that the win condition was different. Which is why I dont buy that it happened, and given a few recent posts from DN, I think he might be playing his normal borderline town-VI play.

[LlamaFluff]

I know but one thing, and that's that vezok isn't a town power role, and that's enough for me to rip his flailing body apart today. This doesn't stop me from scumhunting

different faction scum

like Internet Stranger.

So what makes you think two factions?

[LlamaFluff]

Can you take one guess before I give you the answer?

You are on a X-Type Mafia team?

[LlamaFluff]

Can you take one guess before I give you the answer?

You are on a X-Type Mafia team?

Please no personal attacks. Try one more time.

Y-Type?

You get snide, I get snide. Now answer my question.

[LlamaFluff]

Defending vezok or chainsawing his attackers is inherently a scummy move. But, if vezok was on my team, I wouldn't defend him...

I expected better.

[LlamaFluff]

"Let's move to another wagon for the sake of information" is pretty much the easiest way to guarantee that the wagon will lead to nothing.
"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.

You miss the key one that quite a few people are thinking here "Lets vote someone else because I dont think he is scum".

Im not voting vezok, unless something beyond amazing happens, I really dont see me voting him at all today given how much backing this BS wagon is actually getting on him CLAIMING VT.

Love how Yos showing that he pushed for "kill the VT" shows that it normally ends up in a lynch of... VT

VT = town
PR = town

They count for the same amount of people numbers wise. If I was given the choice of lynching someone who was 80% likely to be VT, or running up someone else, im going to run up someone else EVERY time, because you lose by lynching town. Its damn sure worth the risk of *maybe* outting a PR for increasing chance of a scum lynch. If you figure the average (poorly designed even) game is 50% non-VT, I would in an instant try and get a better lynch then someone I was convinced was VT. Reading VT claims as true is something that really will screw scum over in the long run, and this one is more likely then not true.

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets say statistically scum has a 50% chance of claiming VT, 50% other.

In standard 9:3 game, with 4 town powers... there is about a 70% chance any VT claim is truthful, 70% in this game? Thats awesome. Lynching VTs may slightly help protect PRs, but the significantly cut down chances of lynching scum, and that is the true goal of the game.

News flash: town only lynches correctly on day 1 about 30% of the time anyway. Some studies have actually shown town day 1 lynches to be less accurate then random, probably due to scum manipulation.

Those mislynches provide info for the town that we arent going to get if we just lynch vez for his claim.

@ABR - Only player acceptable for policy lynching is ani. Zewt is actually amazingly readable, mastin you just ignore everything he posts, much like Fate.

[LlamaFluff]

It would be a bad idea for a cop to investigate vez as opposed to trying to deduce his alignment by investigating others. Or just trying to investigate others not related to him and figure out what he is later.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama- at what point would you be willing to lynch Vez then? You can't allow someone to get to lylo just because they claimed VT right off. That would make an easy game for scum.

Sure I can let them get to endgame if I get more of a vez-town read. Not only that but will if my read sticks around.

[LlamaFluff]

I have ISO'd Death Note and I understand his argument, although I don't fully agree with it. He only talks about lynching Vez and not too much else. He seems to be ignoring other players and posts and concentrating only on lynching Vez. He, at the beginning of the day, expressed his intent on lynching him, and he seems to want to do just that, ignoring other suspects and players for the sake of getting a Vez wagon to lynch. The only thing he mentioned not about vezo was about Bamboo's fence-sitting.

Time to play a game called "Fill in the Blank"

Your game puzzle is: DeathNote is scum because of ______.

Now its time too... *studio audience* FILL IN THE BLANK!!!

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, do you still find DeathNote scummy?

No, havent for a while.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

[LlamaFluff]

Furc is right...

But he is voting the wrong person, as in someone who is town.

I really cant understand the vezok wagon, it seems to be based on the premise that vezok has decided to take advantage of his meta and is claiming VT before the game even started. Like I said, this is a battle between "might" and "does" for scum-vezok. It *might* make people give him a pass for a few days, it *might* get him lynched today. It *does* eliminate any chance of him being able to out a power role, it *does* lock him into a confined space, it *does* instantly doom him if tracked/watched/etc.

That means it DOES hurt scum-vezok, and he damn well is smart enough to realize this before he made his claim.

Vezok seriously is in my bottom five lynches today hands down, I would rather lynch any of my null reads over him at this point. Just seriously the wagon is based almost entirely on a VT lynch being the "right" thing to do, when it most certaintly is not.

[LlamaFluff]

@AGar, Primate and LlamaFluff:
If you were scumpartners with vez in this game, would you advise him to claim vanilla town right off the bat?

No, claiming out the gate is the worst move for scum, restricts everything.

@vezok - You are almost right about that game. Ani I was killing because I was going to regardless of my alignment, he is completely insufferable with zero respect for the game, the mods or the other players, and should just stick to mish mash and those other forums. You were defended because it brought me the most town cred, and you hit the major town tell of mine which let me get at arms with people that tend to be able to read me making me look much better in the mid-late game range. Yes I plan for day four/five during the first few pages as scum, would have worked if it wasnt for ultra-random cop investigating me at the same time I had the doc protecting me and everyone else practically eating out of my hand [/rant]

unvote
Vote Medicated Lain

I really dont like his last post on vezok where he seems to lean to the lynch of him based on a mixture of policy (lol no), vezok doing other scummy actions (like what?) and not being able to trust him.

The VT role has to be one of the most annoying buggers out there for scum due to why so many people hate it for whatever reason. Its because its powerless. Look, VT has to be the best role to clear because it starts boxing in scum, as early as day one its going to confine them more and more if they can start getting called town because they cant get rid of them without worrying about investigators, masons making it late, etc etc. There are positions where a VT claim is nearly as trustable as a cleared, while this isnt one, it does apply a couple of the weaker aspects of the entire tell, and im willing to give vezok a town read for what he did here. Is he a good player, not really, but again the power of VT. Vezok town gets a town read on someone and sheeps the crap out of them. Now scum have to worry about players that are essentially double voters, more screws down on them. VT is powerful, vezok claimed VT, there is no good reason to lynch him past policy, we just keep him in check for the remainder of the game and that really is going to work better in the long run.

No clue how many times I need to continue to say this, but vezok is town, even with that garbled claim which makes it even more likely to me. You get your PM, and what sticks out to you more? Lack of role name and actual role, or the odd win condition? I vote A.

[LlamaFluff]

In Fonz's words, "if we don't start lynching stupid players, everyone will start acting stupid" (paraphrasing)

This is where I put my foot down.

Just ignore them and make sure they are just sheeping someone who will put their vote to good use. Do you think I read anything that Fate posts in caps? Anything that LLD posts? That vezok/DN post when they are in derp mode? No.

Vote of vezok, he is town, deal with it and lynch scum instead of pulling this crap which is especially annoying given that you are actually probably town.

@Furc - I will defend the balls off of anyone who I am convinced is town and is being attacked. Always. Vezok is town and if he cant defuse his own wagon, im going to pull it off him myself.

[LlamaFluff]

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

I agree.

Unvote, vote Zindaras

Please stop voting people who are obviously town. There literally are about 20 better places to put your vote.

[LlamaFluff]

Im getting pissed with Llama and his obvtown reads. Other than that I hate the submit button being before the preview and I will read up later.

Well wagon on vezok goes away and I will shut up about it, but no way in hell im letting a top town read get lynched if I can do anything about it.

Little more on ML case right now

I really dislike the approach she (see I got it right this time, blame greyice for the problems) takes to some of this pushing. Right now most of what is coming from ML is attacks on AGar instead of her actually pushing on vezok who needs to be scum apparently for AGar case to actually apply. If vezok is town, it means that all of the work that ML has done is gone. More then that, it allows ML to actually coast on the vezok wagon without contributing as much to it, as there is someone else (AGar) that is where noise is coming from.

The biggest think ML has against vezok is that he butchered the win condition claim (something I would not be shocked at if vezok is town). ML never really responded to my point about how to be lying vezok would have needed to look at the sample role, noticed there was no role name or anything along those lines, and then missed an altered win condition, which I just dont see happening. More likely is that he got bored when reading his role, which I could easily see happening as vanilla just not paying attention to the win con since its always essentially the same.

The move to FL is just really ugly to me. Its obvious that its a flake/VLA/etc going on there, but why is it enough to actually drop everything that is going on to address someone that actually hasnt posted yet? If he gets replaced does that mean you are going right back to the vezok wagon? I dont get it.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff thoughts on MBL?

In the townish pack with most of the game.

Jusus I hav had 2 and a hadfl botrls of wine and lik a fuck lod of southrn confort and you want m to repsoonf. Fact is thjqat you havnt raslly given us enough rsaon to not vot vezok, its just "hes obvtown". Not good nough.

I have said it in a few disjointed posts, or at least vhelmantly argued against it in a style that transcended "is obvtown"

The fact that he claimed is a very bad scum move, worse than vezok is as scum. The really quick wagon on him too, bull. If he was scum, where was the counterwagon? I mean, until the Furc thing no one got beyond what... three votes? It was boom boom boom policy. I just dont see that happening without scum flinching. Look at the one game that has been refrenced a few times. Day one was policy lynches, ani, vezok and gandalf. Gandalf was scum and one scum (Pom) flinched really bad to that happening. There has been no real flinch there.

Now, I still say my theory of him getting the mechanics on vanilla right but not getting the wincondition right is a huge huge point in his favor. Really. I just dont see it. Then again, burnden of proof is not on me here. Most of the pushing against him seems to be from policy esq things for him having claimed VT. A few people (ML) are saying he did something else scummy (what?) but that really hasnt been brought out into the open too much.

I just dont see this being a game where vezok is town. I really just dont see it happening.

[LlamaFluff]

What, you think vezok is scum now?

No thats just train of thoughts merging as "cant see vezok scum" and "cant see vezok not flipping town" apparently becomes that.

[LlamaFluff]

Still like my vote where it is and think this vezok/furc wagon thing is just made up of people who are subconciously policy lynching. If a VI dies, its DN, even then he is down on the list quite a bit. Will try and get a bigger post in since im V/LA Thursday through Saturday/Sunday

[LlamaFluff]

Hell... time to go off topic but things need to be said to make this game better for everyone

@Furc

- Dude. You are not a shitty player, especially when you turn that magical switch and decide to play like you sometimes do. When you are playing one of those good games, I would rather see you show up on the playerlist then a whole lot of people on the site, seriously. You constantly underestimate your own skill in this game not only in your ability to look town, but your ability to make good choices and make good cases. I would absolutely love it if you played like I have seen you play in a few games in the past on a consistant basis, and would be nominating you for most improved in a heartbeat.

Step it up and dont revert to the self of you that has made people think that you are a VI. You are competent, and you just need to prove it not only to yourself, but also to people who still doubt that you have the potential to be a strong player. Prove them wrong so you can laugh at them after the fact.

*whew*

That said I really am not loving a Furc lynch, the wagon on him is all sorts of twitchy. I mean its like leaning scum read, leaning scum read, leaning scum read, neutral, scum read, leaning scum... I would be willing to call ONE person on that wagon town right now. No one else is past neutral.

[LlamaFluff]

LF - I like how you are trying to butter me up, yet give no reference as to what games you are saying I have improved in that I can go back and see what I have done correctly.

I personally feel like my play has been regressing, if anything, though, you are right about that.

Two recent games - Open 291 and American Gods (until claim), both of those you played very solid town games I felt, and threw off scum by not adhering to your normal play that leaves you open for a mid game lynch of scum plays it right.

Not trying to butter you up, just trying to get your confidence up here. Unlike some of the VI players, I see quite a bit of potential for you to be a good player, and dont want you to give up here like you are starting to do.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe he isnt playing good as town in this game because HE IS NOT A TOWN PLAYER

Nah he is town. The wagon on him is just scum read after scum read, would be happy just nuking that entire wagon at this point. I mean you have one sorta town read in AGar, and then the closest anyone else comes is really slight scum read.

ML wagon and Surye wagons look nice, although I like the ML one more.

ML still hasnt given the AGar case that would come tomorrow (granted that was only 'due' yesterday), and from what I saw earlier a lot of the AGar case depended on a scum flip from vezok, which apparently is no longer much of a scum read, im interested to see what is going on there. At this point Furc has managed to creap up into MLs number two spot again, adding to the horri-bad state of that wagon. Just smelling a continued little push of AGar matched with a upcoming "no time!" jump to Furc-town.

ML, TF, maybe Suyre, BMQ and CPE should be getting ran up here. DN works as mix of policy and scum lynch. No one else, please.

[LlamaFluff]

LLama, if TF is scummier than Surye to you, why does the Surye wagon look better than the TF wagon to you?

Because everyone on the Surye wagon is a decent strength town read and at worst neutral/lean town to the point where I would bet big that no more than one of those five are scum, and be 50/50 on all town. Based on that alone its reason to look at a person again.

[LlamaFluff]

@Gummybear and @Medicated Lain, what do you think of Vez's 15+ posts? You seem to have a meta on the guy.. so how do his posts in this game compare to his posts as town/scum? (And I'd prefer if you went deeper than just the two vanilla-related posts he's already been attacked for.)

He's playing like he always does: poorly, and incredibly anti-town. Just for a bit of perspective, how about this quote:

@Zindaras:

I am a survivalist. I'm more satisfied if I lived till the end then if I won.

If everyone knows I am town when claiming VT they won't lynch so I can get to endgame. If I claim VT as scum day 1 like this they won't believe me anymore and I won't have the same chances of winning.

(bold is mine) I mean, come on. Do you want this guy to stay in the game? Really? I don't want him surviving to Lylo. No way is he getting NKed, and if he's not lynched today, he's not going to be. By not lynching him on D1, we are, IMO, putting our LYLO fate in the hands of a not-necessarily-existent vig, and that is not an ideal situation. Period.

I want vezok to stay in the game, think he is town.

Love how we have so many people stalling adding their vote to the Furc wagon. I mean, deadline is coming, people are sticking on stalled wagons for reasoning that we have yet to see, for policy-esq reasons, or for who knows what at this point, and just saying "but THIS guy, yeah he is scum too". Just pfft... I dont get it. Here is my counterarguement - In a game this size, there will nearly for sure be a mason/tracker/cop/etc, with the presence of one of these, there is a large chance that there is a confirmed player. If such a player exists, we FORCE vezok to follow the vote of that confirmed player for as long as they are alive, and reap the profits. Also your fear mongering suggests that vezok is town it seems, but maybe im just reading too much into it.

We are going to play a game

@Sens/BMQ/TF/CPE - Why is Furc scum? If you mention policy lynching, or even insinuate it, I am disqualifying the rest of your response.

[LlamaFluff]

Damn this game, Furc is like, really really likely to be town at this point, and then we have Surye making one of the biggest town tells in the book. I need to do some heavy thinking or see if this game can possibly get shoved in a new direction in the next 24 hours.

I mean, I still like who composes the Surye wagon, but I really dont like the basis of it too that much of an extent, yet the Furc one is far worse in living members over/under is at 70% of scum, and the basis is so much worse. Just bleh, I would much rather quicklynch etiher Gummy or DN then go through with either of those two wagons at this point.

Will get back to you on this after some thought in about 4 hours.

Was bad time for V/LA apparently

[LlamaFluff]

Unfortunately I dont think we can, as we would need at least 11 other people to show up and agree in a very short timespan.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote Surye

Still think chances of a scum flip here are very low, but there is no available option I like more.

[LlamaFluff]

If someone is an amnesic cop, I got a "cult recruiter" result on your target. Result is worded like its BS though so will leave it.

Vote Toon Fighter

[LlamaFluff]

I told you Surye was town, I TOLD you

And I told you vezok was town, I TOLD you

Also seriously, if there is an amnesic, you should claim or give me some sort of signal since I got a "cult recruiter" on X result sent to me.

[LlamaFluff]

What the hell is Llama talking about?

Someone sent me something last night. Says that a specific player is the cult recruiter. The way its worded though sounds like someone faking a result more then a town amnesic, especially because the result is "cult recruiter" instead of just "cult"

If a town amnesic dies, then yeah I full claim it, and if I die, an amnesic knows what their result was. I just would say this is a scum role messing with me though.

Been looking a bit at the Furc wagon, still not a big fan of it, but with a few people, such as BMQ and (well it doesnt matter much anymore) CPE I was more likely wrong. I still like trying to pick apart that wagon though since it makes me very uneasy.

@ABR - There are only three people who I have seen active in the last month that deserve to die in every game ASAP, none of them are in this game. Vezok was obv town and you keep that alive at all costs.

[LlamaFluff]

Only the cop would know who it was.

LF says the PM said a specific player is the cult recruiter. I might be reading it wrong but I interpret that sentence as meaning that the PM included said specific person. Otherwise, it would make no sense for the whole "specific player" thing to be there.

It does, but unless the person who sent this claims to be a player who has absolutely no barring over who they target, if they live, I am fine. Also its about 90% false, I mean, town amnesic role cop who only gets the role name, but NOT character name, in a game where there is no role (ie Cult Recruiter) attached to the character?

Its false. Im saying this as much for the offchance that its true as that no one gets suckered by it in the future.

[LlamaFluff]

But seriously, a cult recruiter getting lynched D2 is amazing and worth the death of an amnesic cop if there is one. If you investigated a player and sent a result to me or anything like that, claim so we can lynch this person.

[LlamaFluff]

Unvote
Vote GummyBear

[LlamaFluff]

The whole thing is probably just a giant red herring of some kind.

Bingo, which is why I think we are basically done talking about it at this point. The Amnesic should consider the fact that there may be other cops/trackers/info roles etc in this game though, so claiming is not a bad thing here. The fact that they may not get as fortunate as to hit town again can be a factor here and the result can be skewed easily by any scum who gets the result.

Now to bring it up one last time (paranoia again) I can see the cult being somewhat limited to only being able to recruit programs and killing anyone else (hell I would have recruited vezok in a heartbeat which scares the crap out of me, especially with Amrun being a decent scum hit and CPE a good vig one). Still, not sure its worth it to persue.

At this point one other thing needs to be addressed, and that is the vauge win condition. Reminds me of recent mini Jurassic Park where the wincondition had nothing to do with eliminating dinos, which the flavor made it seem like it should. This was due to my role being a veg-dino and miller because of such, that ended up catching the SK in a fakeclaim.

Now, this one really doesnt say "kill all programs" which makes me think we have a miller (or human scum). Either way, I think the miller should claim, soon. We have an amnesic cop (maybe), I would assume we have another varient at least. With the large amount of kills, I like bringing that to the surface sooner or not.

Poro has my basic mindset there too, scum is all about not limiting yourself for future moves, basically keeping as many doors open as possible while hiding them all from the town. Escape routes win games.

Anywho

GB is the lynch for today, tomorrow we can discuss the amnesic thing more.

First we have GB entering into the game pushing pure policy on vezok while taking a scum stance on both AGar and Furc, this is compounded by there being no attacks on vezok past policy (ignored win-con thing). Still, we have GB pushing policy (on town) while still leaning into other possible mislynches who are being discussed (AGar is scum, Furc is scum, Surye can go either way). Not liking that post in the least.

When the win-con things is discussed, GB says its a towntell, and continues to push policy over everything else. Again, vezok is not ani, or CA, or Nat, or LLD... not a policy lynch. If the amnesic is real, all we had to do was wait for a town result, and vezok sheeps that player or the AC for the rest of the game and snap, town doublevoter.

Anyways, GB continues not to do any scumhunting, and instead just keep inching the VI players towards what are essentially policy lynches. At the same time they now are taking credibility snipes at AGar who is pushing them.

What really bugs me though, is that they seems to be posting from the mindset that the KNOW vezok is (was) town. All the points that are fearmongering are made from the stance that vezok IS town it seems.

TF wagon isnt horri-bad, but I get a few conflicting reads on him. Some of his posts seem too... i dunno... poorly thoughout to come from scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah not claiming that result today, MAYBE will claim it tomorrow if im around, but I had nothing to do with the cult result so someone else will have the result (the investigator). To even pass as amnesic though, scum would need to send another fake result, and have breadcrumbed amnesic, basically forcing them to kill me tonight, and then win a 1 on 1 with the recruiter. Given thats its nearly for sure fake (really? Town amnesic role cop?) im thinking that we just pass on it today, and tomorrow I claim full result, amnesic claims if they are real, and we clean up.

[LlamaFluff]

Not to mention reactions also point away from it being real, since there is just one person who fits the bill of possible amnesic, and if the resultee has posted, really looks like non-CR with their reaction.

Now, one thing here REALLY bugs me, and that is that I played a gambit almost identical to this very recently. Super ironic on so many levels really. Not too many of the same players in this game though. I dont think I have actually seen an amnesic cop though on MS, although I have seen a scum message sender.

[LlamaFluff]

After everyone has had a chance to chime in an lay out a possible connection to the investigation target I probably will. I want a few more people to give specific input into the matter first though, always can help for tackling future things.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, in middle of a wierd V/LA I didnt expect, should be all better by tomorrow.

Because enough people have chimed in, I got a Cult Recruiter result on Kison. So yeah...

@Zind - Can I ask you not to call Furcolow Furry? I used that as an alt account for over a year, so you calling him that really confuses me.

[LlamaFluff]

Should I just assume that Hez is the only one drinking the SensScum kool-aid? I'm happy to continue ripping his posts apart and pointing out the massive hypocrisy and holes in them, but at this point I'm wondering if anyone else is giving his points validity.

His point valid, not entirely.

You obviously town, also no.

What you are doing is NOT helping anything though.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, when you get the chance, can you at least give some sort of response to my post about your play D1?

You want more then what I said throughout the day? I wasnt a huge fan of the Furc or the Surye wagons, when it came down to choose between the two, I had them both as more town than scum for different reasons. I ended up voting the person who most of my town reads were voting over the person who most of my scum reads were voting. Would base a decision on the same things again if forced to. If it was up to me, I would have killed about half the game over either of them though.

unvote
Vote TF

Wagon snap here would be nice.

[LlamaFluff]

I can give RC/Batt an old hydra account I used if they want that.

This game just needs a wagon at this point or its going to apathy itself to death, I think TF is a decent scum pick wagon and a good informational one.

[LlamaFluff]

@TF - Are you a miller or a pro-town program? Yes or no.

[LlamaFluff]

Sure it is, if you are a miller or pro-town program, the answer is "yes". If you are anything else, the answer is "no"

[LlamaFluff]

I thought even computer illiterate people understand that. I mean, do you say "thats not a yes or no question" when the cop arresting asks if you have any weapons OR drugs on you?

[LlamaFluff]

@MBL
TF is either scum or a VI, either way the way the wagons on him are acting I want to see what is actually going on there since they are growing fast and falling apart fast with little reasoning each time.
RC needs to calm down, but I dont think he is really scum for anything here. ABR too. Same with Sens, all of them need to just shut up a little. This is almost as bad as the "rage post" people who already ruin games on this site. If they dont I would be happy vigging/lynching them so they stop trying to force the game and not let anyone else get a word in.
Ran/GB im torn on, I thought GB was scummy but have a slight town read on Ran so far.
Poro I would be exceedingly happy with a vig of, sure he is one of the people I always read as scum, but the entire play from the slot has been very underwhelming.
Furc I still say is kinda town from his day one still to me, and that I dont like the members of that wagon he had.

[LlamaFluff]

Really not liking LF's last post. But I won't explain why so that I don't get vigged for forcing the game and

literally

stopping anyone else from posting.

Overbearing control of the game topics will destroy the town unless the people who are in control have perfect reads. Its why I hate this damn "rage post" phase of the site right now, and there are two out of the what... 10 or so... people that are a part of that group that are tolerable. The rest all need to shut up and let the game progress because they arent nearly good enough players to justify leading a town. This is examplified by LLD who is quite possibly the most insufferable player on this entire site that I would consider vigging even if they were confirmed town just because I hate them that much as a player and they WILL be that damaging to the town, even if they are for sure town. Maybe I have anger issues over that player, but every time I have seen them they make the game less enjoyable for everyone involved and have crappy reads to boot.

But yes, acting that that hurts the town. If someone wont shut up and stop acting in a way that hurts the town, I am all for vigging them. I would have killed one of you in an instant over vezok (even with null reads on all).

TF needs to answer my question about possible miller-dom ASAP

[LlamaFluff]

@ LF: I am a pro-town program, I am not a miller

All other pro-town programs should claim at this point like this.

This is going to be like Jurassic Park mafia, almost for sure. There is probably is a cop that picks up on what the percieved threat is (programs) and there will be one or more people who ARE programs but are town aligned. Anyone who fits this bill needs to say it, just look at the win condition, NOTHING about eliminating programs is mentioned. Going back to the other game, nothing about eliminating dinos was mentioned (infact that caught the SK day one when they fakeclaimed), and there was a pro-town dino.

Only twitchy thing is that I *somehow* guessed a pro-town program in my first shot so im a little nervous that TF thinks im an actual cop (I did get that message) with a 'guilty' or something on him (which I would never have checked him)... will come back to that later though.

unvote
Vote Poro

[LlamaFluff]

First two yes, third ehhh... I cant see it.

[LlamaFluff]

What makes you think Yos is scum, Llama? I don't recall you thinking that before.

He has been bugging me on a gut level for quite some time now. Not really sure why, but some attention there wouldnt be the worst thing in the world

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, you know what.

I propose a policy lynch of someone who is actually somewhat scummy.

Vote DeathNote

This is far far worse then he normally plays, and already is beginning to basically claim intention of not going to do anything else for the rest of the game. Sure its day two, but im not going to put up with it, and apparently my hope that he was going to get vigged is out the window with recent developments.

[LlamaFluff]

Interesting. How does he usually play? (It's noted that he doesn't even want to answer questions at all)

Somewhat more good.

DN is definantly in the "VI" category of players, and is lynchbait in most of his games. He does actually get into games most of the time though, and make a few tries to get things done when he decides to or is pushed into it. Running him up will either get him to do something or get him out of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

Could be.

When im at a point like this though when I dislike most of the large wagons, and the deadline is pressing such that I do not feel that I have the ability to get someone ran up that I would like to see lynched, the push of someone who is just lurking around and intentionally damaging the town is a very good lynch. If DN is town, he never is going to get killed by scum, and probably not vigged given recent statements. As he has decided that he is not going to contribute, that just compounds the headache that he is creating for the rest of the town.

He actually is slightly scummy though too, and because of that, the gain from wagoning him hard increases greatly since he actually doesnt have poor odds to flip scum to begin with. I really cant see much of a scenario where lynching him does much damage, especially if the lynch is very quick as scum will get caught completely off guard.

[LlamaFluff]

What is your read on RC, and what were your thoughts on his recent catch up?

Isn't it a bit risky to push for a late wagon near deadline though? Why haven't you tried pushing for it earlier?

I still have RC as slightly town. Not really loving the way the wagon showed up and I dont see him as too likely scum unless Furc is scum (which I doubt).

I am fine pushing this wagon though, now instead of earlier because this is where I draw the line of not being able to get an optimal lynch done, although I still accomplished a couple major goals of mine today.

[LlamaFluff]

This one he tried a little more on after he got ran up at least.

I think if the dead in the water wagons fall apart there will be no trouble getting DN lynched. I would be willing to vote RC to stop a deadline no lynch, but I just dont like that the wagon formed out of the sudden loud posting that happened, probably in part because I am willing to spite people who post like that by not voting with them unless I am overly confident since it destroys the town. But also because I just dont see it more then someone falling behind and not reacting well to pressure.

[LlamaFluff]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

[LlamaFluff]

There, wagon achieved on DN.

Of course im lying about being alignment cop in this situation, I just wanted to actually make competing wagons and this was the only way I figured that it was a possibility before deadline hit. You dont investigate someone who is going to be vigged or waste possible confirmed town status.

I will say this though just to continue to WIFOM scum here - Regardless of my role (VT or other), I DID recieve that message last night. That is 100% truthfull.

[LlamaFluff]

@Yos - I in no way intended to ride the fakeguilty to a lynch, I may take some risks but that big of one is stupid in essentially all situations. What I did want was to create a scenario where multiple lynch options were available. With RC being the only one under any real pressure with about 72 hours left in the day, it reeks of scum just being happy with the wagon given zero attempt for any other one outside of a few weak pushes makes me think town. Regardless of that even, most people are in some form of agreement with me about DN reading scum, and this was the perfect way to actually make them take a more solid stance on who is more scummy between two players since before the deadline allowed for simple way to ignore everything.

@Ran - Reactions arent going to be readable at this point as we dont know alignments. Even then I doubt they are going to give us much. Also I dont think it hurts town since RC is still in lynch range, as now is a second player (DN) which gives us the aformentioned advantages.

[LlamaFluff]

I *could* get behind a TF lynch since im not sure the odds of hitting a miller with my fishing there (I swear if someone says 10%...). Feels very convienent, but at the same time, I can think of two "pro-town" programs in the movies off the top of my head and its been years since I saw them.

[LlamaFluff]

So Llama claims not really an investigative role, but 100% says he got back a guilty on Deathnote? I don't really understand. I am willing to switch with more details. Right now, you're not making any sense to me.

By the way, the 100% has nothing to do with DN (unless its chances of me not using any power role on him). Its that I got that thing about Kison which really has made me take a different approach to today then I wanted to.

Could have sworn I did this though already

unvote
Vote DeathNote

I dont support a RC or TF wagon, although I would vote TF over RC.

[LlamaFluff]

You guys are cute. Everything I do

always

has multiple levels of reasoning attached to it, its what I basically do in these games, farside said it best in that "I slant everything regardless of alignment". The gambit had a very specific goal in mind, and im pretty sure at least the secondary ones were achieved here. Trust me here, even without the DN lynch, the wagon was exactly something the game needed for tomorrow and beyond.

@Kison - He claimed pro-town program, not machine. Like I said, there are two programs that were protagonists that I immediately think of when I think of this theme. And due to the wincondition, there nearly HAS to be either a pro-town program/machine or a anti-town human. Its too ambiguous for anything else to be the setup.

[LlamaFluff]

Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with keeping your win conditions non-specific as a Mod. The WC tells us very little.

As I said, this win-con is much vauger then most games, and when the theme suggests that role types A/B are bad, and the win-condition doesnt mention them, something tends to be off. As I already said, I saw this and immediately thought of a recent game that had a "bad character" miller due to the wincondition. "Dinos vs Humans" had a dino detector cop and a pro-town dino. I would lay a massive bet that there is at least one pro-town program or anti-town human in this game.

@IS - Im not interested in doing anything to pander to him, im trying to effect the play of a couple players in particular with that gambit, and reactions say that I probably accomplished that goal. Either way, all information I know that is important has already been said.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama. Considering the fact that I would love to shoot you right now for acting condescending to us feeble minds and pulling bullshit stunts, its quite likely that others (like Albert) just might as well. Wouldnt it make more sense to just spit out what information you have instead of lording it over us like free cheese before you turn up dead tomorrow?

My gambit did what it was supposed to do, not going to say what it was supposed to do right now since that would eliminate all of the gain it created. As I said, it was ment to accomplish multiple things, and it succeeded in a few of those.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh great Llama, your gambits are so wily and so fruitful, please share with us your unbound knowledge!

Carrots are good for your eyes.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote TF

Lesser of two evils

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, why do you want to lynch me instead of lurkobvscum DeathNinja?

Because he isnt "obvlurkerscum". I have a leaning town read on both of you, however the town tells from you are weaker, and the fact that far more people have openly admitted to being ok with the lynch of you yet not supporting you instead of him make me like your wagon more.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, why did you claim early again?

My role suggested sanity issues and multiple factions, one of which I would get a negative result on. I figured in a 25 player game where I would be able to get a guilty result on maybe three or four people, tops and possibly have a few miller roles out there, I would do better to just draw the NK when I couldn't trust my results or own reads too well. Everything pointed to the my role easily being able to screw over the town through the wording, and I was actually right in a majority of my assumptions.