Mini 1127 Cult vs Masons OVER. TOWN WINS

[Plum]

VOTE: Katsuki

She steals so much love away from me.

[Plum]

Hm, well then, Andy, lemme just ask. You have nice pretty setup speculation in your first post. But I don't see it going anywhere. I mean, great, Cult may well have a backup Recruiter or suchlike and very probably do not have regular nightkills in addition to regular recruition. Dandy. But

what difference does this make for us now

? And why don't you touch upon that at all? Why so much speculation and so little in the way of conclusions?

I've been a Mason once or twice I think and I was once a Cult Recruiter who managed to nearly win the game despite never successfully recruiting. Bastard Mod didn't help by letting my would-be-recruits choose whether or not to completely join my cult

[Plum]

Andy: Eh, it was/is of mild concern that you had a relatively large wall early in the game which was speculation without, as far as I could see, any potential for prompting the sort of conflict useful so early in the game or any 'what does this mean for scumhunting today' quality that I could see, and frankly you didn't seem that concerned about the latter even in your follow-up, where I was vaguely thinking you might mention a possible conclusion (like 'we should look for group-scum tells to catch the Cult even Day 1', your speculation being probable).

vote:andrius

seems fidgety, unselfconscious of play, and its the best page 2 read you can get. Too bad I missed my policy kat vote for being a dick.

"Its the best page 2 read you can get" - what do you mean by this? I honestly cannot parse it in a way that makes proper sense. Saw your edit re: unselfconscious/selfconscious.

Parama, why do you hate my love for you?

I never said you were town. I think you're exaggerating the seriousness of the alliance.

DUDE I AM NOT BUDDYING HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY ACCUSE ME OF THAT?

Andy, do you think you

are

being selfconscious in your play?

I don't suck, but there is a perception that I do.
So i'm not going to get culted
therefore I'm really really town.

. . . or Cult leader. M just saying.

Ender, don't refer to ongoing games ever kthx.

Andy might as well be obvtown. He can't keep this act up forever if he's scum.

Hm? What act and why not?

"Hm, well then, Andy, lemme just ask" sounds awkward as hell.
How is setup speculation "nice" if it doesn't go anywhere?
Finally, why the hell aren't these questions accompanied with a vote?

Plum is very likely the Cult Recruiter. And keep in mind that if we lynch her tomorrow after Exe and she flips Recruiter, I should be masoned/lynched the next day immediately.

If you think it sounded awkward I dunno what to tell you; it was the phrasing that came to mind. 'Nice' was meant to be fairly sarcastic - that is, it's set up to look all long and pretty as a post so early in the game, looking like it's brimming with something useful. But with no conclusions, it seems more like intentionally trying to look useful but not actually something with useful conclusions applied. That said it was possible that Andrius meant to put in useful conclusions or imply ones that didn't come across (see my response to him above), so I wanted to poke around (and he

didn't

follow up with useful conclusions, so there you are). I could've switched my vote to him, sure, but I didn't feel like it and didn't think I'd gain or lose anything by it. Given that you think I'm scummy, why Cult Leader? Furthermore, if you believe so strongly that I'm the Cult Leader, why the heck don't you vote me now? Even if you think Exe is likely Mafia as well, Cult Leader is generally more dangerous. Some things aren't lining up with your suspicions here.

Oh, yeah, let's just let the Cult Recruiter get killed by the potentially-non-existant mafia. Seriously though, why don't we just lynch her if we think she's C.R.?

And why don't you vote for me then, if you agree with Nacho's read on me? Why are you happy about the prospect of an Alliance on Page 2 and sure it's definitely not happening by Page 4?

Ehm, debating a VV vote at this point. Is he misreading or misrepping? :\

Regarding what? I think I pinpointed the post and am fairly uncertain what you're referring to here.

I left my vote there because "in that case" (i.e. under Andy's description) your reason wouldn't stack up, but I wanted to hear what you had to say about alliances before making a change. After waiting and you not responding, I've been considering moving to one of VV or Andy.

Why wait - it sounds like either of them were better suspects than Exe from your point of view by that point. Whose permission are you waiting for here?

AV's scumhunting in this game, such as it has been, has been

hugely

passive[/i]. Thirteen posts this game and he seems uninvested in his own scumhunting - he's not noticing off things or potential scumtells himself and sheeps to cover any ground at all (and/or any off thing he himself does notice don't get attention from him at all - he questions Nacho re: why he has me as CR and not Mafia, but doesn't put him down on the list of two people he's considering moving his vote onto when Parama asks, and this sort of sheeping works in conjunction with the above AV quote). His two votes have been based on discrepancies or scumtells noticed by other people and latched onto by him - his vote on Exe came after Parama's comment on something Exe did

before

AV's previous post; same thing with CD's discrepancy in Andrius' posting.

Exe's last big post, despite the over-defensive tone of the beginning (attacking Nacho's method for finding his opinion rather than merely trying to set him straight) his talk about his love for a specific alliance and such feels genuine.

VOTE: AV

AV
Exe
Andrius
Nacho

[Plum]

I gotta' show off my amazing skills for the Head Mason dude. Since I can't suck up to him directly I'm going to just be amazingly ovtown.
More of getting some of my concerns out there so we don't have people going "wtf" later on down the line.

The second line would be fair enough. The first line doesn't entirely reassure me regarding the fact that the post looked like it was intended to make you look Town as opposed to help Town and possibly incidentally appear Town.

We don't know if they even ARE connected now so unless you plan on forcing massclaim on all of us then there's no way to hunt for c.r. tells right now.

Dude, CR is what we're hunting now. Are you really saying there are no good CR tells (or just no good CR-specific tells)? I don't know how massclaim would help us hunt CR tells or why you'd think that, so yeah.

And why don't you vote for me then, if you agree with Nacho's read on me? Why are you happy about the prospect of an Alliance on Page 2 and sure it's definitely not happening by Page 4?

It was sarcasm. I agree with the read, but him not voting you instantly makes me question his methods. Because if I thought you were CR then I'd vote you. I agree with the read but him not following up on it is scummy. CRs don't like stepping on toes; iss a good way to push your lynch and at the same time not shove a wagon to bear down right away.

Funny, because you saying you agree with the read but not voting me because you're unsure of Nacho's methods (dude, his analysis was right there; if you honestly thought there was any value in the arguments why not go back, look at my post, and see if it was scummy by your own standard or not???) is doing much the same thing, not-stepping-on-toes-but-possibly-setting-up-for-suspecting/lynching me-wise.

@Plum: Yeah, I disliked that last Exe post too. But Andy is still acting like scum so. What do you think of Andy?

Fairly scummeh. Probably second scumread below AV as I'm reading through the thread here, about on par with Exe (look at my last post; I actually tentatively liked more than disliked the post you mention).

I thought I'd see whether there was a different view on alliances that might account for Parama's suspicion. And while I was then deciding between the two of them, I didn't want to unvote while I decided. Why are you allowed to not switch your vote, but I have to do so immediately?

It's not a matter of allowed or not allowed, but I had no alternative suspects/people I was questioning while waiting on Andy. You seem like you might have. But beyond that, you had two decent suspects after your questions were answered. You could easily have voted someone you actually actively suspected and changed your mind afterwards. Instead you kept your vote on Exe, despite the fact that the case you voted him for was invalid. Basically, voting any suspect>>>>>voting someone you don't suspect. Avoiding voting a suspect on the excuse of waiting to decide between two suspects is avoiding voting a suspect while voting a non-suspect.

My point about you sheeping was based on the fact that your Exe vote was based directly on something Parama caught onto. Your Exe vote was based on something CooLDoG caught onto. I haven't seen much of you catching onto much on your own as you scumhunt, even ideas that might be wrong/trivial/whatnot. What you have caught onto has been pushed to the background/not acted upon in favor of acting on other people's trains of thought. That's passivity in the scumhunt and yeah, that's bad too.

@Plum, Seeing as it was page 2 I wanted to simply state that it wasn't a very strong read, partly (mostly) due to the fact that it is so early in the game. But the scum read on andy has grown much stronger as time has gone on.

Fine; I just couldn't tell quite what statement the sentence in question was trying to make.

Umm, your vote isn't even on me LOL.

I know that. I was explaining why I hadn't unvoted. While deciding what to do (i.e. in the situation before I voted Andy) my vote is more useful on you than on no one. That's a statement in the (persisting/perpetual) present tense because the sentiment is still true despite the condition not being fulfilled. My vote is more useful on someone (in this specific case you) than on no one.[/quote]

Dude, follow that to its logical conclusion. Your vote is arguably marginally more useful on someone you OPENLY DECLARED you didn't find a case on anymore and obviously wasn't interested in lynching at the time than on no one (

arguably

). By that token, wouldn't your vote be exponentially more useful on someone you had

any

actual suspicions of???

[Plum]

For clarity: That's a scum's excuse to stay on the biggest wagon.

I pretty much openly admitted to keeping my vote on the biggest wagon.
So, what is your point? I like wagons, you should know this by now.

Voting a viable wagon on your biggest suspect>>>>>>>>>>>>voting the biggest wagon just because.

You should know this by now

.

By the way, the CooLDoG wagon is full of FAIL.

[Plum]

Andrius. Nacho hasn't posted since Saturday. AV posted yesterday. You want a prod/replace of AV and a replacement of Nacho. That doesn't add up any.

[Plum]

You're right; I misread. Sorry about that.

[Plum]

OH YEAH

If Andrius is town or there are multiple scum factions, Ender is scum, backed off WAY too easily, timid scum.

NICE SETTING UP LYNCHES, SCUMBAG.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: AdumbroDeus

[Plum]

Before I forget: Yes, this is Irate!Andy, or JustPlainTickedOff!Andy. If he thinks he's being wagoned for a stupid reason Day 1, I'm going to go out on a limb and call that null.

*narrows eyes*

Plum, I know you know that this type of reasoning is useful in catching scum, it's basing it on interactions. If it was somebody else that pressured him causing him to remove the vote then he could've been looking for an excuse to remove the vote. But since Andrius did it and he removed the vote with almost no provocation that suggests that he didn't like the attention he was getting from Andrius. But if we have one scum faction and one flips scum, it's unlikely the other will. Giving up when pushed by a scummate builds connections far too easily, I doubt any actual scum would do it, so if Andrius flips town it's a dumbtown maneuver.


Come on, you were much better then this in the invitational, what changed?

Nice appealing to a game where I was scum, man . Anyway, I disagree as a general theory point. I almost never approve of trying to theorize associations or scumteam connections before any flips have gone down and scrutinize carefully any such premature associations because I find them distracting and useless at best. Besides the fact that yes, you're setting up lynches. You were preparing a place for yourself on the largest wagon without voting it too quickly or without some general sense of approval. But then you stated that if you were wrong, we should definitely be looking to lynch this someone else. That's setting up lynches conditionally, pushing one lynch but setting up a lock-target for when (hypothetically speaking) the first target flips, le gasp, Town - and

that

is scummy. So now I'm curious as to why you find me scummish for what seems to be a theory argument based on a quality of play you last saw

when I was scum

.

Lemme ask you this, if I was scum why wouldn't I vote? I had the perfect opportunity to do so while cloaking it in the wagon. I certainly gave a lot more reasoning then most people, it would've been easy to justify a vote and push a myslynch, especially when he was already at l-1, and the fact that since it was my first post with content in the game and the strong stance would mean that it would draw attention (even though he was an ostensibly safe target). Voting would've been the safe choice.

So why didn't I do it? Cause I hadn't caught up fully and wasn't settled on a target.

We have a term for this in my town. I don't quite remember it that clearly, but it has something to do with wine in front of me.

Good ol' Nacho ninja'd me.

But yeah. Either way you be drawing attention. And in the post in question you make no mention of needing to catch up or being on the verge thereof or anything.

Speaking of. You say that you've been mucking around the prior pages and ISOs and whatnot. So. Notes/thoughts, ASAP. Now. I don't need complete, but I'm seeing a lot of defense from you and little in the way of scumhunting beyond the horribad Andrius-suspicion post and narrowing your eyes at various people who've voted you since. If deadline's four days away, I want to know who you want to vote for and why in the world I should vote him (her?) over you. Kthxbye.

[Plum]

Why so quiet, also parama needs more votes, deadline is less then 2 days away, let's move people.

FAAAAAKE

No really. If deadline is two days away and no one else thinks he's scum or wants to vote him,

and

you think Andrius is also likely scum . . . why are you rah-rah-ing the nonviable wagon and not voting the viable wagon on someone you've pegged as scum?

As far as drawing attention, yeah, if I was trying to avoid catching attention and not commit, there are a number of ways of being more subtle, I think I'm good enough as scum to do that, so the only reason that I would've made an attention-getting post is if I either wanted to get attention or didn't care if I did.

Dude, I'm underage, don't try to sell me this WIFOM.

[Plum]

Vote: Plum

If she wasn't scum yesterday, she's probably scum today because I sure as hell aren't. Also a good choice? Parama.

I wish . Have to ask, though, going after recruit over going after Recruiter? Really? That said . . . I noticed something and this Exe suspicions thing might carry some weight.

Meh, w.e. I'm not going to keep fighting this. I'm fine with either scum swinging.

Adumbro, claim. I will hammer.

I don't see the argument for Cooldog-CR at all.

Just Iso'd CK, and realized that he's been deliberately fighting the Andy wagon all game.

Connections much?

Lynch Andy. When he flips scum, I'm looking at CK next.

I'm seeing a disturbing pattern here. Exe's setting up lynches. Different than the typical sort of 'Let's lynch X but is he flips Town lynch Y afterwards'. But I'd put money on whose lynch he'd push if a Town-Andy lynch went through here, and on what basis.

VOTE: Exe

[Plum]

Vote: Plum

Her Exe vote was incredibly weird. She was hyper aggressive against Adumbro, but then went for Exe for being hyperagressive against Adumbro(and for being hyperagressive against Andy). Do not like. I think it was distancing gone awry.

Uh, no. You misread my point on Exe: He was setting up situations where he'd say 'Both of these guys are scum/scum together'. The first time he did that with AD and Andy AD flipped Town and he went right after Andy.

Then

he tried to pull the same thing: He called Andy and Chess scum together and pushed the strong Andy wagon. The way he was playing, I felt that he was setting up future targets for him to attack every day (hence my comment about being pretty sure about who he'd go after if Andy flipped Town - he'd probably go after Chess, never mind the fact that he was using the purported connection previously to push his stance on And and Chess) in a very scum-minded way. Hyperaggro didn't bother me. The way in which he was using players and wagons to set up contingency wagons for future Days was scummy.

VOTE: Parama

The stances yesterday - from point-blank 'Andy is scum' to sudden hammer vote on WHEEEEEE EXE - lines up reasonably with recruit (mostly because he was the obvlynch by that point and nothing would stop that). PLUS if you were Exe, who'd you recruit Night 1? Yeah, thought so.

[Plum]

CALLED IT.

It would be nice to believe Parama and all, but the sample Cult Recruiter PM is in fact maddeningly vague and doesn't specify much of anything - the possibility of recruits not being perma-scum and/or not knowing the identity of the recruiter is there, but the possibility of some form of backup Recruiter system is there too. And I'm kinda uninterested in playing into the WIFOM here when we can lynch someone who's definitely not on the list of people we need to keep around and whatever scum follow follow.

Vas thought I was recruited :/ . . . so yeah.

[Plum]

Oh, and Plum: <3
You just HAD to draw scum, didn't you?
You clearly need to talk with them faeries about your luck. :/
Seriously, Turin had better overall luck than you, and we all know what happened to him.

Nah, I have much better luck than him . . . except in my choice of kills. There we're about even.

AV shot was a horrendous misplay made too late at night; I wanted to switch back to Nacho (because Kmd was keeping super-long distance between Night ending and Daystart) but wasn't allowed. Katsuki was my shot at Mason Recruiter. I knew Parama was Cult and would even get a bonus for killing him because of that, but I knew that unless I hit the Head Mason it would be a war of attrition I would lose sooner or later. Which was true (this time it happened to be sooner). My Day play was pretty fair, I think, but my NK choices stunk out of a combination of stupidity on my part and bad luck. In theory I was pretty dang sure Nacho was a Mason but not the Head Mason so I could've shot him and hoped for a chance to cut off the Head the next Night, but I wouldn't gain any ground, and with the Cult Recruiter dead I desperately needed to gain ground because I was already fairly far behind (and had no chance of netting the further bonuses for NKing Cult because there was only one left in the game).

[Plum]

Yeah. The Unrecruitable thing didn't help me very much

[Plum]

I did my job drawing the NK lol.

Why was I shot, Plum?

Best guess at Head Mason at the time.