Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[Haylen]

Sensfan - Town Townie - Killed Night Three.

It is now Day Four. Deadline is Friday 25th February at 9pm GMT time. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Calcifer]

Just a note--I did this before, but it was lost. So, this version is 1: rushed, and 2: not as good.

Hi, everyone! I've kind of been following this game, but I'll read the thread more carefully when I get a chance.

It's all in the wording. This feels like a scum entrance, to me. I know I worded my entrance into a game as scum EXACTLY like this, when I didn't do that as town.

Town
bvoigt
nhammen- seems to be looking for information and making logical decisions.
Empking- His vote for Nacho looks like something a townie would say.
iamausername- see above, except because of his defense of Guderian. I disagree, though, as I'd expect scum to carefully read the sample role PM.
Calcifer- they're making a lot of sense to me.
DemonHybrid- This one's hard to explain, but he's not staying in the background as scum would.

There's one scum in this list of bv's, I'd think.

Not Sure
Parama
chkflip
don_johnson
RossWilliam- I'd like him to explain his DH vote, please.
ender241
Untrod Tripod

See Ross there, dead in the middle? Only one of his neutral reads with a reason. Dead giveaway.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the people under each heading are in no particular order.

"Oh, crud, I made it really obvious who my buddy was with the order! I'll need to make an excuse to explain just how horribly convenient it is!"

Yeah, werewolf logged in yesterday, and he's been posting in other places. Let's see where this goes.

UNVOTE: Guderian
VOTE: werewolf333

Shamelessly wagoning Werewolf. The first four really needs a Western scum, and bv fits.

Werewolf, you don't exactly seem like you're doing your best to scumhunt. It looks like you're mostly just concerned with keeping yourself alive.

Fluff.

I will support an nhammen lynch tomorrow.

Setting up mislynches.

VOTE: tylerjarvis

His HoS on DH seemed weird...I don't see how a "jumpy nature and snap judgments" make someone more likely to be scum. And that's basically all the content he's contributed for the entire game.

Votes a lurker (I believe there was a comment at the time something along the lines of, "come on, REALLY?!?"), and tries to explain it as anything other than just a lurker lynch. Is also being a bit hypocritical about content; I see stuff in his posts, but not nearly as much as there should be for him to have the right to this accusation.

This is a good point. It looks like he might have been trying to subtly discourage a wagon on his buddy. I'm happy with my Tyler vote, though.

Doesn't hop onto the Evil wagon, maintaining a much weaker lurker-vote instead of the good case made against him.

Are you planning to say anything else?

Fluff.

UT has lurked more than Tyler.

This 1: failed to address the concern about BV's lack of Evil vote, and 2: would be reason to vote UT over Tyler, not vice-versa.

BV's vote on Tyler makes no sense at all.

UNVOTE: tylerjarvis
VOTE: evilpacman18

Done after he's been called out for his continuing of the weak tyler case over the stronger Evil case.

Also, I have a townread on Parama.

Buddying to Parama, as there's really no town reason to say this.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking.

If BV were town, he'd follow through with this statement, look at activity levels, and FIND who the lurkers were and push them. Since he isn't, there are two ways to interpret this statement: A: he's trying to nudge his buddies into talking more, or B: He's trying to get attention onto lurkers. If B, this is particularly bad, as he himself is guilty to some extent.

This game needs a wagon or something.

It had two wagons by that point. There was no use to calling for more, other than perhaps nudging scum-buddies into "vote for a wagon!". There's no town-reason to say this.

DH's hammer did seem fairly scummy, but I'm voting EPM.

"DH looks like a better vote, but I won't vote for him because it'll make me look worse, more obvious when Demon flips."

UNVOTE: evilpacman13
VOTE: DemonHybrid

"Oh, hey, Demon's a better wagon for my team! Let's get this going!" What happened to BV's town read on Demon? Vanished, without a mention as to why there was such a switch.

@DH: Even if Guderian was SK, he didn't have any buddies to defend, and he was still probably trying to scumhunt and gain town cred. So I'm asking you to tell us your logic, please, assuming Guderian was town.

Fluff.

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid
VOTE: evilpacman13

1: "Crud, the Demon vote will look bad!" 2: "Oh, look! I can get a more likely mislynch of Evil if I switch back! I was on before; surely, nobody would notice!"

I'm more convinced that EPM is scum, and I think my previous vote has served its purpose.

BV:

What was that purpose?
I see none in there. At all. Well, from town-BV, anyway. Scum-BV, plenty of purpose. Mind clarifying?

SensFan tylerjarvis
don_johnson 4computer
SharkFinn Untrod Tripod

Unless all 3 Eastern Mafia were on the werewolf wagon, one of these guys is the final Eastern Mafia.

Setting up these players as town makes me think one in there is scum.

Tyler's ISO has almost no scumhunting

Hypocritical, and not entirely true. I got a lot from Tyler, and so should have BV.

With their buddy getting in trouble immediately, perhaps both the newbie scum tried to stop the immediate judgements? I know, it's not a very convincing case, but...just ISO Tyler and see if you get the same feeling of newbie scum.

VOTE: SensFan

Returning to a weak vote which he admits is weak himself. Why not build a better case? Why not vote for someone more likely to get lynched?

Answer: to stay out of the light, to avoid the attention it'd gather on himself.

Low-profile scum.

And yeah, I know my EPM vote was sheeping.

"Whoops, that was scummy, wasn't it? Maybe if I admit it, they'll let me come off clean!"
Nope, not here, anyway.

The main actual reasons were his excuses for active lurking and link to Ender (iamausername's ISO #11).

"Uh...uh...I need reasons! Quickly! Let's throw together a piece of junk to make it pass off as valid!"

I really see no reason for Emp to fakeclaim, so I believe him.

"Oh, good, I'm not in danger."

Wagons Parama, who he knows isn't on his team, and therefore is a good lynch for them.

[Calcifer]

vote DH because he is obviously a bulletproof SK

"Vote for this scummy player because it'll look good!"

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

"The town's scumhunting already?!? B-but...that leaves me nothing to work from to fake my own scumhunting! It's too soon! I'm confused." He had no reads. Which he should have. He should've had SOMETHING. We got?

I'll keep voting DH though.

No reason. No explanation. Just voting for a player at the center of attention.

DH, I found a book about your situation

Image

hope this helps

hugs and kisses,
Untrod

This is scum coaching. I've seen it before, and this fits the bill perfectly. (This seems to be evidence that Demon is town, actually--experienced scum players tend to not coach buddies, but coach TOWN players. I know; I've done it before.)

Never delivers the content promised in his ISO # 5.

but seriously. what the fuck happened here?

No additional reads.

I'm down for lynching nhammen tomorrow

Setting up a mislynch. Like BV. Almost identical wording, too.

No I don't! Promise!

I was actually considering replacing out because I was feeling overwhelmed by this game, but that quote alone makes me want to say. I will start participating starting NAO.

This sounds like scum who wants to put up a fight, not town who realized they were failing.

trying to read this game makes my soul weep. here are my reads so far

scum:
nhammen

leaning scum:
calcifer
EPM

WTF:
Battle Mage

leaning town:
DRK
Parama

town:
iamusername

will give some reasons later

Here's what's wrong with this. For starters, having trouble reading the game is no excuse, and is just worthless fluff to post. There's no point in saying that. It's something which I'd never accept as a reason for not giving good insight.

Battle Mage was right in the middle of his list--neutral. Guess who else was guilty of that? Yeah, BV. To finish this off, he fails to deliver the promised reasons. This looks quite bad for UT.

Calcifer is obv town

Scum are:
DemonHybrid
iamusername
evilpackman.

More details to come.

Oh, look! Like predecessor, like successor! Fails to deliver on the reasons! Shocker, that.

He was willing to (and did) hammer Evil, who he knew wasn't on his team (but was scum), the perfect gift for a scum who wants to look town.

Good job guys.

Classic tell, this. There was no need to congratulate the town for scumhunting well on Evil. Why say it at all? At best, it's fluff.

Question: Did you factor in the fact that I hammered the 2nd eastern mafia member? Of course he outed himself and hammering was pretty much the best move for me (town/scum). I'm just wondering if that factor'd in?

This is better translated as "Question: are you suspicious of me? Do you think I might be scum? Well, I shouldn't be that type of scum!"

That's horribad for me.

I like Parama's reads on the wagon. Which basically just dooms DemonHybrid.

Buddying to Parama.

Vote DemonHybrid with more analysis on the D1 wagon of werewolf555 to come.

Analysis, I might add, which Shark never follows through on...

bvoigt: Your votes on evilpacman13 when he was lynched had no reasoning to it, aside from bandwagoning. What exactly made evilpacman scummy and why did you make the first post about nhammen, yet completely abandon it both days.

This looks like valuable insight, but many had pointed this out before, if memory serves, bumping it to fluff.

Iamusername: you are similar to bviogt above. You post, but little content whatsoever about why you are voting someone, but of course you actually make your reason pretty clear though. You targetted two players who were the most inactive and your only other vote was evilpacman (the first RVS and the last a bandwagon vote). Explain why you went after the players who were "less active than necessary" and why the evilpacman vote late?

Same as above, Shark posts on a subject we had already talked about. This didn't really expand the issue more than it had already been explored previously, and therefore, fluff.

Empking; from past experience, this is how he plays >_<. Soooooo I leave it be atm.

Purposefully null. Why post this at all?

Calcifer: Nacho is the man. Also think he's town. (off chance of West, but SEVERLY doubt).

Setting up a possible vote for us in the future.

DemonHybrid: Well everyone's posted quite a bit about him, so Ill read through later and pick the best arguments, but from my reads earlier, I feel he's a good lynch today.

"Well, I'm going to pick a common suspect as my own because it won't look that bad, and will parrot their arguments, selecting only the best to get a mislynch!"

It was recently pointed out to me in a finished game how active players tend to get the most attention, and therefore tend to draw suspicion regardless of actual alignment, allowing scum to mostly coast. Demon is an active player, who I feel looks suspicious simply because of activity, and that there's no true reason to support a Demon lynch, that it's mega-weak.

Also, who is DeathRowKitty's associate?

Wants to out DRK's mason buddy. Bad play, considering we'd only gain one clear who'd quickly die, considering we have a dead doctor, and considering we were well on the way to lynching scum without this.

And if you happen to not be today's lynch (which you will probably be), what does that mean about Parama?

Is convinced that Demon is the lynch for the day. Also pries for options on Parama, and I think it was to further the scum's course of action towards Parama.

Hmm...nhammen, do you think that Battle Mage is the type of player to bus DH, because I am doubting the scenario that they are on separate teams. I agree that BM is totally setting up duos, but maybe we need to rethink DH scum.

"Hmm, maybe I can't get a lynch on Demon after all. But, hey, let's leave the vote on, just in case!"

I hammer 2 Eastern scum. GDI why cant i hammer western scum??? >_<

Because you ARE Western, Shark. Seriously, two hammers in a row. More than that, Shark's playerslot has had three votes this entire game.
-DemonHybrid (from UT the entire time)
-Hammer on Evil (knew it wasn't buddy)
-DemonHybrid again
and
-Hammer on Parama (made easy by Empking's claim and also not a buddy).

Shark's totally scum.

[Calcifer]

Working on nhammen ISO. Too dang long.

[Empking]

Vote: Calcifer

- Got an innocent result on Nhammen.

[Haylen]

Thought it important to mention: The OP has been updated to include a picture of Yogi bear.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Calcifer

[DemonHybrid]

Cal, you get an A for effort, by the way.

[Calcifer]

This logic seems to be a bit too much of a jump for me to believe.

This feels like it could be a possible setup for a future vote on this playerslot.

But whatever floats your boat. At least it looks like a Townie type of leap.

But this seems to contradict the above. Why mention it at all, then? Reads as fluff.

This makes me believe you are annoyed Town.

This feels like nhammen is trying to coach Evil a little.

This, however, draws other conclusions.

And this adds another contradiction. Why post two different conclusions about the same person in the same post? There's no point; he should've deleted the parts not relevant.

Why give a reason at all?

Nhammen:

Why NOT give a reason, though?

Although, this is a very small tell, so I'm more inclined towards Town right now.

And again, I ask why say it at all if he still feels town?
This feels like nhammen is setting up interest in an Evil lynch.

Consider my scumdar pinged, DemonHybrid.

"Consider the active player who is only suspicious due to their activity to be one of my suspects as well."

Wait. Voting based off of players that you have played with before is considered logical now?

Nhammen was missing the point, here, that Evil was putting too much detail into explaining his reasons so early--
Something which he himself had questioned Evil about earlier. Hypocritical.

I'm trying to decide between dumb town and scum with you DemonHybrid.

"You're dumb or you're scum." Bad reasoning.

I have a question for you, why do you consider rhetorical questions a scumtell?

Nhammen is generalizing. Demon disliked one particular rhetorical question. Nhammen took it to mean all rhetoric questions.

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

Nhammen:

Tell me, in this situation, I can see only two ways to reach this conclusion:
-You think that Nacho's confidence in THAT case is scummy,
or
-You think overconfidence is scummy in general.

If the former, please explain why and elaborate on that read. If the latter, I know you're lying scum, either that, or someone who in their massive amount of experience just really hasn't heard of tunnel visioning.

You seem to be hunting for excuses to vote, rather than hunting for scum!

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Funny, I got that same exact impression from YOU, nhammen.

In fact, you are just piggybacking off of other players' accusations against EPM

Funny, I got the same impression of nhammen on Demon.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

This post was more confusing than what he was replying to. Demon clearly thought nhammen was defending Evil. (I got that impression yesterday as well.) I think the second half, however, is implying that he says he still has an Evil suspicion, despite how it looks like the Chainsaw Defense.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit.

Alright, it's official, nhammen hates tunnel-visioners. Or somehow seriously thought both Nacho and Demon looked bad for being so confident.

Lots of assumptions here. But this part is just bad logic, not a scumtell.

Then why bring it up?

This bothers me too.

Does not elaborate.

But what bothers me even more, is that both of these posts carried absolutely no information whatsoever.

Soft Information instead of Analysis accusation, which he doesn't really explore much, doesn't push harder on.

Aaaaand, another post containing no real info. Well, other than setup speculation anyways. Have any comment on the game itself?

This is about as hard as nhammen ever pushes the people posting no content. It is virtually worthless.

Am I missing something? Where are the comments about the actual players in the game that you should be posting?

He follows this through eventually with a vote, but I don't think nhammen was pushing this subject hard enough, that he wasn't convinced any of them were actually scum. That he was using a commonly-accepted scumtell to give poor reasonings for his lynch vote.

Maybe you are just dumb Town. Hmmm... I still think you are scummy enough to hold my vote for now.

"Hmm, Demon might not be my best mislynch. But I'll hold on, just in case!"

On another note, this game is starting to make me quite annoyed. I should probably stop posting now, before I say something I will regret.

"I'm getting emotional, so I should stop posting before I slip."
I do it all the time as scum. This is exactly what he'd say as scum.

Your comment in this quote is very wrong. And it indicates uneasiness about nacho being on multiple Town lists, which is something that can be a very clear scumtell.

Furthers an Evil suspicion, but doesn't follow it through.

I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a Town list. You do not put someone on a Town list because the haven't done anything scummy. You put them on a Town list because they have done something clearly protown. EPM is telling Parama that nacho has not done anything clearly protown (which I disagree with), so he should not be on a Town list. Obviously some players disagree,and would definitely not like nacho to be lynched.

Fluff. There is no point in posting this.

And this type of response is NOT HELPING!

Again, he doesn't push hard enough.

1. Debatable (which is surprising; most accusations of OMGUS are clearly false). OMGUS is returning a vote only because the person voted you. He used an argument that he believed justified this vote. This argument is that your argument justifying your vote is horrible play. I agree with that assessment, but don't see it as a reason to vote. Equating bad play and scumminess is a pet peeve of mine. The possibility for debate arises because his argument is centered on the reason for your vote of him, so it could be seen as OMGUS.

This seems mostly like theory debate, and therefore mostly fluff.

2. What does that even mean? Well, I already asked, so I will assume that there is some answer later.

This, however, is. Why mention it more than once?

3. You cannot just say something is scummy. You say that both 1 and 2 are scummy, but do not justify this. Why are these things scumtells? Use that brain and THINK rather than mindlessly using some acronym to attack someone.

Funny, I got the feeling nhammen himself was doing this somewhat, too. And also the opposite, which is just as bad. And on top of all that, this is coaching and looks quite a lot like scum coaching.

Votes Ender, one of the lurkers in the game.

Also, my vote for ender was for the obvious reason of having posted no content so far.

There were many others who hadn't. Why single out ender, above all others?

In my opinion, bullying is a playstyle tell and not a scumtell.

Funny you mention that, nhammen, considering you docked some of Nacho's town points and became suspicious of Demon...
...For doing this exact thing. Hypocrite.

This sorta looks like someone sitting on the side and enjoying others fight.

Does not follow through. I think there might be a reason for this.

Because he is worried about the possibility of EPM being scum? Maybe. Or maybe because what you were doing did appear to be an attack? Multiple possibilities.

I'm kind-of curious why nhammen seems to be jumping to the defense of Guderian so much.

But the quote I am replying to shows you saying SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and THAT is what I am referring to. You can keep saying that B is what you believe, but that doesn't change the fact that you said A. Although, scum will rarely act the way you have, so...

Then why say it at all?

Fluff.

Except I really don't see how that meta shows what nacho suggests it shows.

No elaboration.

This is one thing I am wondering about. Why wont you vote Guderian today? I would think that logically, with the viewpoint you have, he would make a better vote than EPM.

Does not follow through.

Seeing a trend? He abandons a lot of what he works on, like he can't make up his mind who to attack, what reads to get, etc. In other words, feels like scum.

It is the same reason. What I'm pointing out is that there are FOUR players that have exhibited the same behavior, and yet, you are only going after one of them. Why?

Extremely hypocritical.

I can see that Ross has made a comment about not liking EPM or DH (with no reason), so that is at least a little bit, but I'm not considering it as valid until he gives reasons.

Guess which of the four nhammen is up against looks the best? Yeah, Ross. Guess who was Western scum? Yeah, Ross.

So you are essentially saying that bad play is equal to scummy play. I have stated before that this is a pet peeve of mine. Also, Day 1 is going to be speculation. That's how things happen. At least you have some comments here.

Fluff.

And what about my post don't you get? Because what I'm saying is that you completely misread his post. That is NOT what EPM was saying, and if you looked at his post in context, you would have realized this. What he was saying is that he wanted Parama to take nacho off of his (Parama's) Town list, because while he(nacho) hadn't done anything scummy, he(nacho) hasn't done anything townie either (in EPM's opinion). And your reply says that if he hasn't done anything Townie, then he shouldn't be on a town list, which is EXACTLY what EPM was saying. Please try understanding a conversation before replying to it.

Scum coaching. If not, then fluff.

Interesting. I isoed nacho, and in his iso #6, you clearly see an example of this. I shall join you on the nacho train.
VOTE: nacho

I later pointed out just how horrible the logic of this debate was, and nhammen--for following through with it--looks quite bad.

Although, I must say I have one problem with this thought concerning nacho, but I will wait until he responds to this new accusation before posting that problem.

I don't think he ever explained this.

Except, heres the thing: what if you are wrong? I see that as a valid reason to get a bit concerned, but you say that since it would happen tomorrow, it doesn't matter, which is complete nonsense. It does still matter. You have said that is what your plan is multiple times. So why should he ignore it now, if you plan to go through with it later? I do not understand that comment of yours, that he has no reason to freak out because it wouldn't happen today. Complete nonsense.

More coaching.

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time. Very definitely sheeping. In fact, I might make Ross my next vote.

Never follows through with this. I wonder why?

Wait, who? I actually had to go back and look at the playerlist. This player hasn't posted at all.
@mod, could we have a prod on 4comp?

Fluff, considering my point asked for much the same.

I agree with Calcifer that Werewolf's behavior so far does look slightly scummy. Also, this post of werewolf's was followed by... nothing. So essentially he said that he was perfectly willing to stop doing what he was being suspected for but never actually stopped. Or rather started, lol!

But does not vote for anyone. Looks particularly bad, when he voted ender for what I felt were poorer reasons than this.

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game.

I have yet to see evidence of nhammen using these connections. Also, he should have a clear scumspect by this point.

I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.

Has failed to do this, too.

I really don't see any sort of new insight coming from Ross. I think he was just jumping on the easy bandwagon, or rather BOTH easy bandwagons.

Funny, considering 1: nhammen never follows through on this, and 2: is himself guilty, although he did retract later on.

I hadn't noticed this at the time, but you are quite right. Point against DH here.

Which he fails to follow through on.

This is far too demanding. Also, are contradictions necessarily scummy? And how can you honestly say that contradictions from a hydra are scummy?

Coaching or fluff. Take your pick.

I'm getting kinda tired of tyler now too. I will admit that when I accused DH of targeting tyler specifically, I was wrong to do so, because there was nothing wrong with DH's attack. He just saw something before I realized how serious it was.

And yet, does not follow through with a tyler vote, either!

But, if you would like to know why I voted ender, it is because he had posted the least amount of content out of the people that I had noticed with that problem.

I don't think anyone asked this of nhammen before now.

nham:

explain why ender gave the least in your mind.

Same here. Plus, in a multiscum game, expect to see no fake hunting until one faction has been destroyed, so this is actually really bad reasoning coming from chkflip.

Fluff.
Also seems like nhammen is doing a small amount of buddying to my playerslot.

Just because they didnt agree with the logic presented doesn't make them scum.

Fluff.

Those were some very fast 4 votes. However, at only 4 votes, I don't mind too much.

4 votes is 4/9 needed for a lynch. And he doesn't mind?!? Yeah, that's quite bad.

Agree completely. Bandwagoning, and his "top suspect" is a lurker? Although, then maybe I'm guilty of seeing fake hunting in multiscum.

He had acknowledged multiscum before. And that makes this look quite bad to me.

I changed my mind.
VOTE: werewolf555

You decide to suddenly pop in as soon as a wagon on you appears, as if by magic. And the best you can do is complain about the wagon on you? No! Content! NOW!

Coaching, and his first real vote for quite some time, seemingly based on frustration instead of actual suspicion.

yay! content! And yes, I agree. But someone already said that. Which person on the wagon do you find to be the most likely to be scum?

Coaching.

Umm.... OK.

Fluff.

Very true.

Fluff.

Well, knowing Parama's playstyle, I will never hear the end of his theory now. Yay?

Fluff.

Sigh. You discussed that game, and then linked to it. Very modkillable. Bye bye!

Oh, look, an entire post filled with nothing but FLUFF! More than that, this looks like too much of a carefree attitude coming from a town player. It's like he doesn't care what Wererwolf's alignment is--something only scum would do.

How exactly could I make a counter-argument for crazy? I really don't see any way to do it.

"I can't defend against this." An excuse. And then he tries, anyway.

I'll try to appease you, but I know you wont accept it.

It was pointed out in a game I just finished (nham was in it as well) that this kind of sentence is EXTREMELY scummy.

Interesting case. I've done the same thing when I was scum, so I can believe this. Although, did she actually give a reason? When I was scum I tried to convince the rest of the town that the link was there.

"Hmm, this might be grounds to get an easy vote on Evil! But, I need to make sure..."

Yeah, I have to agree; tyler has been pretty scummy.

Focusing on a lurker.

Interesting. So you both say that Calcifer may be right about pacman, but then go and vote an active lurker. How many scum are in this game again?

This definitely leaves possible nhammen connections to BV and iamausername.

I agree with this too. And I hadn't noticed this until iamausername's comment. Unfortunately, positive scumhunting is not as much of an alignment tell in multiscum.

This is fluff.

Actually...come to think of it, nhammen acknowledges that scumhunting in multiscum is not much of an alignment tell. It should work the opposite way around--people not doing scumhunting in multiscum shouldn't be much of an alignment tell.
Yet nhammen has been hounding the lurkers for the entire game, at that point.

Quite hypocritical.

OK, tell me exactly what role could mean, if we know that Guderian is not mafia. I can't think of very much, and definitely no reason to stall.

Fluff.

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case. So, (A) Parama hasn't made very many cases, but (B) of the few cases he has made, EPM is one of them. And (C) Parama's case against me was that I was bussing werewolf, who is Town. And you just said that you liked the case against me, after having seen werewolf's flip. So, I'd like to know what you liked about it. In fact, Parama says to get EPM if werewolf is town. So, did you actually read that iso? Because it seems like you didn't.

Reads a lot like, "stop. bussing. me!"

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso. Not that I have room to speak.

Fluff.

That was partially a joke (about how many scumreads could come from those two posts), and partially a reminder to myself about some odd behavior. Odd that you took it seriously in context, but not a comment about alignment.

Fluff. If this was any indicator of an interest in iamausername, he never followed through, so it can't be content.

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Bussing, big time, it looks like. Says the case is good, and then goes into a lot of fluff about theory discussion. Doesn't elaborate on a UT case at all.

I was considering voting you right there, but I typed a ... instead.

No further elaboration on this.

So that is two out of... how many? I'd say that if you did a mathematical analysis of your page 3 and earlier reads, you would see them being just slightly better than random.

Fluff.

I love it when replacements arrive and put things in new context. I now agree about bvoigt being scummy. Still want a response from Untrod though. For the record, DRK's entrance was extremely town.

1: BV AND UT distancing, 2: DRK was the Western Mafia kill, and nhammen thought DRK was extremely town.

@DRK 436: DGB's "experiment" does make DH look a little worse, but not by much. It is more likely that DGB was trying to get a reaction out of someone that is easy to get a reaction out of. Also, something else you point out, but did not notice yourself, is that DGB also tried to create scumlinks between EPM and DH. That's two players that DGB has tried to link to pacman.

Considering he failed to follow through, fluff.

I wish I could vote for all four of Untrod, and Parama, and EPM, and tyler! And you know, let's add bvoigt in there too!

One of those names is scum, almost for certain.

And would this change any connections he had with others? What info do you hope to get from any role.

Fluff.

Well, GIVE AN EXAMPLE.

More fluff.

Seeing as how Calcifer was right about EPM, I am adding major scumpoints to both players that said that Calcifer was on to something, and then voted for a lurker. However, a four person scumteam is highly improbable in a game this size, so I'm going to guess only one of them is scum. At this point in time, I suspect it to be bvoigt.

And he never follows through!

This looks like honest analysis. This doesn't mesh with my bvoigt=Eastern suspicions. Will require thought.

Which we never get.
Also, why not Western?

Holy crap! Shark's reply to bvoigt looks pretty bad. Hey, did you make sure to notice that I hammered my buddy for towncred? Did ya? Then again, I don't imagine any scum player being this overt. They tend to be much more subtle than that. So, for now, this shall only be considered bad play and not scum play.

Fluff.

I am curious as to what brought out this particular question.

Fluff.

OK, I'd like to know this as well.

More fluff.

Sigh. Two scumteams. Fake hunting doesn't happen, until one team is eliminated. Unless it is drawing fake connections between a partner and another non-partner player apparently, lol.

I got the distinct impression from the coaching nature of this post that nhammen believed Demon to be town. If it wasn't coaching, it was fluff. And also, it is hypocritical.

A) You acknowledge that it was sheeping. Why weren't you trying to find out your own cases instead of following others? B) Why didn't you give these reasons along with that vote?

Never follows through with bv. Yeah, thinking there's a reason for that.

The only reason for any mason to claim soon is if there is a realistic possibility they will be killed, and then scum come forward claiming to be a third member of what is actually a 2 member mason group. In other words, if the mason is a likely night kill, and that mason is the only member of the group left.

Fluff.

His vote on Demon is terrible.

Although, I can sort of agree with his Parama case, because I kinda saw the attacks from Battle Mage on Parama as bussing before Calcifer mentioned it.

1: didn't mention this before, and 2: expresses suspicion of Parama when Parama was an easy lynch.

Whoa whoa whoa! Why do you come straight to that conclusion? Are you Eastern? Wait. That would mean that A) the cop claim is false and B) you are on a different team than Emp. This doesn't make sense for a few reasons.

Parama's response to Calcifer's tunneling is good. Although, with the cop claim, both players involved would be scum.

Fluff.

Nhammen looks really, REALLY bad.

[DemonHybrid]

...A+ for effort. Wow.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Calcifer

You played well, though.

I'm starting to think that Shark is the final scum, BTW. His hammers the past two days read as someone over-eager to gain town cred.

[don_johnson]

vote: calcifer

[nhammen]

Vote: Calcifer

- Got an innocent result on Nhammen.

Ummm... awesome. Just curious, but why did you pick me to investigate?

Why give a reason at all?

Nhammen:

Why NOT give a reason, though?

I dunno. I just thought that there was no reason to give a reason. Are you seriously defending the actions a player that has flipped scum?

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

Nhammen:

Tell me, in this situation, I can see only two ways to reach this conclusion:
-You think that Nacho's confidence in THAT case is scummy,
or
-You think overconfidence is scummy in general.

If the former, please explain why and elaborate on that read. If the latter, I know you're lying scum, either that, or someone who in their massive amount of experience just really hasn't heard of tunnel visioning.

The former. You will have to forgive me, because that was so long ago that I don't remember the specifics.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

This post was more confusing than what he was replying to. Demon clearly thought nhammen was defending Evil. (I got that impression yesterday as well.) I think the second half, however, is implying that he says he still has an Evil suspicion, despite how it looks like the Chainsaw Defense.

Actually, I remember this, and Demon was accusing Guderian of "soft-defending" and I honestly had no idea what he was talking about. But cool of you to put words into Demon's mouth. I'm sure he appreciates that.

But, if you would like to know why I voted ender, it is because he had posted the least amount of content out of the people that I had noticed with that problem.

I don't think anyone asked this of nhammen before now.

nham:

explain why ender gave the least in your mind.

Because he had two posts, neither of which contained anything but a couple of sentences of fluff, while the other players that I could think of had in some way tried. I think I'm remembering that correctly.

Seeing as how Calcifer was right about EPM, I am adding major scumpoints to both players that said that Calcifer was on to something, and then voted for a lurker. However, a four person scumteam is highly improbable in a game this size, so I'm going to guess only one of them is scum. At this point in time, I suspect it to be bvoigt.

And he never follows through!

This looks like honest analysis. This doesn't mesh with my bvoigt=Eastern suspicions. Will require thought.

Which we never get.
Also, why not Western?

The suspicions were based entirely on the idea that they were distancing from EPM, who as you know was ... EASTERN.

I am curious as to what brought out this particular question.

Fluff.

OK, I'd like to know this as well.

More fluff.

I really like that you call this fluff, since this is you know, ASKING FOR MORE INFORMATION. So, now I need to go check and see if any more information was given here.

If there was anything more you would like me to respond to in that post, just let me know.

By my count, Calcifer is at L-1. I don't think there is anything we can use in his posts to find his teammate, but if someone were willing to go over them with a fine-toothed comb, it would be good to try. I really don't want to.

[DemonHybrid]

Nhammen, I didn't even read it, so no worries.

[DemonHybrid]

Cal's L-1 for the record. Lets just get this over with.

[SharkFinn]

Vote Calcifer

According to DH. This is hammer. THis will verify Empking which is good for us! .

[SharkFinn]

EWOP: Whenever its not late, Ill actually read Calcifer's posts (especially his wall one)

Will say his sudden change of heart from "UT is town" to "Sharkfinn's player slot is obv scum" is desperation from my PoV.

[Empking]

Vote: Calcifer

- Got an innocent result on Nhammen.

Ummm... awesome. Just curious, but why did you pick me to investigate?

You looked like scum.

(Yes that's right scum. By nightkilling the scummy looking players you can have a chance of stopping my investigation. Cool!)

[DemonHybrid]

I'm willing to bet nhammen and Shark are inno too, since he's building a case on both of them.

[DemonHybrid]

*bvoigt, sorry

[iamausername]

I'm willing to bet nhammen and Shark are inno too, since he's building a case on both of them.

What's that in front of me? A glass of wine? Don't mind if I do!

[Empking]

I'm willing to bet nhammen and Shark are inno too, since he's building a case on both of them.

What's that in front of me? A glass of wine? Don't mind if I do!

He knew you'd say that. That's why you need to take the wine in front of HIM!

[DemonHybrid]

I'm willing to bet nhammen and Shark are inno too, since he's building a case on both of them.

What's that in front of me? A glass of wine? Don't mind if I do!

Oh....username...say it ain't so.

[iamausername]

Update on my moving/internet situation; activation date is Monday 21st, so I'll have pretty much no access next week. (I can get on with my phone, but that's hella tedious just to read threads, never mind making a decent sized post).

TOTALLY V/LA 14TH-21ST YOU GUYS

[don_johnson]

emp: investigate iam tonight?

scum: you really need to kill empking.

doc??: don't protect empking?

welcome to the loony bin. lets get this done.