Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[Calcifer]

Apparently, I got the go-ahead on this account.

I do have a post, but not on my current computer, and I have to leave, right now. I'll get around to it.

-Mastin

[Calcifer]

TOWN:
Nachomamma8
DemonHybrid
Untrod Tripod
iamusername
Parama
tylerjarvis
Empking
nhammen

NOT SCUM:

SCUM:
evilpacman18
Guderian
ender
RossWilliam
werewolf

Parama graduates to town level! Congratulations, Parama!

Updating the list but posting tomorrow.

[Calcifer]

Alright, so I'm available. These are my thoughts so far. (Warning: A bit long, but hey, if I do my job right, it shouldn't be too bad. )

Right, so I figure if I get to play the game as the Hydra, I should write my notes down, because it might be a while before I actually get to play and I don't want to forget.

To answer Guderian, if I get to play, it'll be as a Hydra with Nacho. I don't have a PM as I am writing this, but that'll come, eventually. (An edit: obviously, since I've started playing, now, I have it, but didn't at the time.)

Spoiler: about the two faction debate...

First of all, the Sample PM clearly shows that, yes, there are two mafia factions.

But honestly? That Sample Role PM is public. Lack of proper reading is a null tell. (Actually, in my experience, scum tend to read posts even closer, but not enough for it to be a town tell. Just enough that it certainly is NOT something I see as suspicious.)

I mean, honestly, think about it:
Who reads the win conditions? Well, I know *I* do, personally, but a lot of people just assume, "blah, blah, eliminate all non-town factions, yadda, yadda, skip that."

In my opinion, anyway. I'll need to check how many people have done so, but if memory serves, it's around half a dozen--are all of them scum? Almost certainly not. It's null.

To start, werewolf555, Azelf, tylerjarvisl, 4computer, RossWilliam, and ender241, I'd like to know previous games by you people. The rest of the list is familiar to me, but your names are not. Preferably your most recent games as town and scum (if you have any). I like to get a feel for the players on Meta. (I've concluded it is something best done earlier in the game, not later.) You know, get a general feel for your playstyle, see what player type you are, that kind of thing.

Anyway, as I mention in a sidenote in my scumhunting guide, I firmly believe that everything you need to find all the scum is theoretically in the first five pages of the game. Which we're in, by the way. So, I paid close attention, particularly to pages 2-3.

Between Demon, Evil, Nacho/Myself (I suppose), Guderian, and Parama...
...There are at least two scum. Before I paid attention to the 'two scumteams' phrase (that was brought up on pages 3-4, when I was reading 2-3), my gut was SCREAMING, "BUSSING! BUSSING! I SMELL BUSSING!" So, they might not be bussing (or maybe they are), but they certainly are still scum. Well, 2 of them are, anyway.

The obvious choice is Demon and Guderian, 1 scum in them, but I'm not fully convinced that the other is town. Just seems, well, too easy.

In my completely-and-totally-unbiased-opinion, Nacho looked town.

Demon also LOOKED town, logically, but my gut is screaming at me, "DEMON IS SCUM!" (I hate how often I use my gut early on, but it can prove to be rather accurate.)

I agree that UT is town, though if Demon flips scum, I'll have an eye on UT. (Call it gut. Like I said, I smelled bussing.)

Iamausername's vote is fairly weak. On a good player, and I agree that Nacho probably got it right, but I'm not convinced iamausername is sincere.

(That said, [like Nacho's opinion, apparently] it didn't scream from my gut, "BUSSING!" I wouldn't be surprised to see iamausername as scum on a different scumteam from evil if both/either evil/Guderian are scum as I believe.)

This post unnerves me. It might just be iamausername in general, though. My reads on him in the only other game I've played with him were...shall we say...quite......off. (Want a link? Well...read it and laugh at how much I suck. Going against iamausername and Yosarian2 at the same time, needless to say, was a BAD idea. )

I must be tunneling already. This post looks like town by logic, but my gut is telling me that it's off. Again. >_<

Parama's post here makes me think he is town. My gut isn't acting up at all, and the logic behind it seems strong.

Tyler looks town for this. Not sure why, but he does. (If you want to--though I won't, because I think it's more--you can call it gut, again. There's something in there which is town. It seems like more than gut, but I can't figure it out. Must be one of those subtle things.)

Ender feels neutral to me, mostly, but I'm willing to give him a pass as town.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

Nhammen looks town, to me. Don't like his ender vote in 94 (several people had not given content--if memory serves--and I dislike how he singled out ender of them), but otherwise, he's not really suspicious. UT continues to look town (particularly for his post here), though this looks like passive coaching.

Demon constantly referring to other players doing the same exact tactic reads as highly suspicious to me. Let's just say I have a good reason for thinking that. Not to mention, the heavy buddying to Nacho, who shares my playerslot if you actually see this.

---

Let's see...
Summary from my first read:
-I have no werewolf read. I don't think he gave me anything to use.

Werewolf: post more content

, so I can improve my read on you.
-Parama is town.
-Azelf I have no read on.

Azelf: see werewolf

.
-chk is the same story.

chk: look above

.
-Tyler is town. It's something subtle, which I can't name, yet, but give me time, and I'll figure it out. It's not just gut.
-evil reads as scum.
-nhammen looks town.
-4computer...who is this, again? (

*cough, cough*

)
-Ross is town.
-ender (who is being replaced) was neutral, leaning town, before. I'm eagerly awaiting the replacement.
-Empking's town, from what I've seen of him.
-iamausername LOOKS like town in his posts. I've looked at the surface meaning of his words, and found nothing suspicious in them. I need to dig deeper. My gut seriously did not like him. I need to see the meaning behind his words to get a better read. He's definitely leaning scum, to me.
-Guderian is another person who looks like they came down with a serious case of scum, but due to his V/LA, I'm willing to let him be for now.
-UT looks town, but if Demon is scum, I think UT is as well.
-Demon's posts look town, but he looks like he's bussing to my gut.

*So, The scum are within Evil, Guderian, iamausername, UT, and Demon, plus one of my neutrals, most likely. That's my first impression. (Though, again, I'll be rereading the thread several times to make sure.)
*My neutrals are Azelf, werewolf, chk, 4computer, and ender, though ender is leaning town.
*It also figures that the remaining players are therefore on my town list: Parama, Tyler, nhammen, Ross, and Empking.

What does all of this mean?
I like our current vote, which last I knew was on Evil.

/End entry post. Hopefully, they'll be shorter, after this.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Missed ender replacing out. He's town.

tyler's town for us saying that we're rushing too much and then doing something about it and trying to move back to the RVS. It's a misguided attempt to help the town, but it's still an attempt to help the town.

RossWilliam is scum for "feeling bad for missing three pages". Come on, really? Then there's the whole "Well, MY role PM says that there were two scum teams but it didn't give the specifics" which is bad and scummy and bad.

nhammen is town for all of that vote-hopping. He's been very open about them, too; it's not very often that town plays so openly.

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I wasn't. Point being?

[Calcifer]

WEREWOLF!

Werewolf is scum for being so damn under the radar, as demonstrated by me forgetting who he was. He's also not reading the game AT ALL, but still trying to act like he's contributing. Notice:

I think Emp's attack on Nacho is retarded but I don't think it can be taken as anything but a nulltell because I can understand where he'd be coming from but

disagree with the logic 100%.

personally, I believe that there is no way to prove it either way, but

as you said, the logic is sound

.

done and done

[Calcifer]

@EPM:
I retract the meta point.

Your question was so broken. What was the correct answer?

Either name without reasoning would've been fine. Refusing to answer? Also fine.

See but if I didn't add a reason, the outcome would've been the same (me and whoever I don't pick are scum) AND I would have been forced into saying why I picked the name when there wasn't even supposed to be a why in the first place:

Why not just pick a name? It would've been more honest, after all. You shouldn't have been afraid of being prodded for a why because then you could just say "I don't know", truthfully. Assigning reasons in fear of being questioned is just scummy.

You sound just like Fate

I'm half tempted to unvote you just for this <3
Unfortunately, you're still scum

[Calcifer]

Hmm...
*Agree with Ender/Tyler/Nhammen.
*Disagree with Ross. He's solidly town, to me.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

*Simply 'cause I play Werewolf on another forum, I'll accept Werewolf as being scum. (AKA, will look into.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Town would have been.

And my half disagrees. Not carefully reading is a null (or even minor [like, 51-52% so too-small-to-notice] town) tell. Made this clear in my entry post.

Speaking of which...

To start,

werewolf555

, Azelf, tylerjarvisl,

4computer

,

RossWilliam

, and

ender241

, I'd like to know previous games by you people. The rest of the list is familiar to me, but your names are not. Preferably your most recent games as town and scum (if you have any).

Bolded-->Have posted since then but not fulfilled my request. You're all Goons or Mafia Scum, meaning, you have to have at least one, possibly two, games under your belt. Even if you have none over, you could at least have the courtesy of telling me.
Underlined might (and probably should) be replaced. If they are, the request will extend to their replacement, unless I happen to know you.
Strike is being replaced. Same as above.

What do you think of DH's defence of you?

Quite frankly? I hated Demon's defense of Nacho, even as a spectator. Now playing in the same slot as Nacho is, I hate it even more.

Werewolf's post here reeks of scum. It's the subtle newbie tell. Newbie town will still try to scum hunt, just suck really badly at it. Newbie scum will post stuff like that, trying to appease those actually doing the scum hunting. Looking at him in isolation, I don't see any effort at all to scum hunt. Not a word of suspicion, on a single player. Thanks for bringing it into attention, Nacho; I definitely think werewolf's scum, now.

Calcifer, never seen you before but I'm extremely impressed so far.

That's 'cause this account is a Hydra, currently in this game being me, Mastin, and Nachomamma8. We have pretty distinct styles, so it shouldn't be that hard to tell us apart.

Would you care to give me some more info on your read on me? I seem to have been mostly left out of your big post and the other post you made directed at me was mostly reiterations of stuff that DH and (IIRC) Nacho said about my reply to his question.

As I prefer to follow my own advice, I'll try to keep this brief:

Nacho I felt was right in his suspicion of you, so you can look to his reasons. As for my own besides his,

Between Demon, Evil, Guderian, and Parama... [added: and--I suppose--UT belongs here as well]
...There are at least two scum.

That. Why? Bussing, defensive patterns, etc. Off the charts in pages 2-3.

Since we both seem to be fans of meta reads, I'm especially hoping for some comparisons of my meta so far in this game to my scum meta (best example of that would be BBM's 118) and my town meta (probably Mostly Mountainous is the best one).

Honestly, I thought I remembered you well enough to not meta you, but as you asked, I suppose I will. It'll make a good demonstration of the difference between a personal investigation (which it'll be), and a case (which it's not). Obviously not in this post; that'd be way too long.

I'm considerring moving my vote off Calc but I'd like an answer to my question first.

You'll have to wait for Nacho's half to get a better answer than my own.

Contrary to the point Empking was making, I actually don't hold it against Evil that he missed the fact that I'm a Hydra. It's not hard to miss if you're skimming my posts, and while the pattern should've been made obvious by the two distinct styles Calcifer has been posting in, it's still something which you might not pay attention to in an initial quick readthrough, particularly considering the length of my posts. (Sorry.)

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time.

Not

quite

, nham. True, almost every single player was thinking one of them was scum...
...But Ross--to my knowledge--is the first to express how he thought

both

are scum, as I did in my post. That makes me think he's town, because he had a new insight which wasn't there before, that they were bussing each other hard. He obviously didn't say all of that, but it's definitely implied in his posts.
To my knowledge, everyone before that was just thinking one of them was scum and the other one town. Therefore, I see no sheeping. I see active participation. And from that, I come to the logical conclusion, that Ross is town.

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game. I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.

This point, I strongly agree with. All the information's there; most of us just don't know how to use it, yet, to find all the scum. (Still, I'll be trying.)

The other points, not agreeing with so much. Obviously, bad play != scum play, but I see more than just bad play which points to Demon being scum.

And I'm alright with the idea of one--possibly two--scum being lurkers, but half of them? Well, if we have 2-2 scumteams, I'd expect the scum wouldn't try lurking (the smaller the team, the more important staying active is), and if we have 3-3 scumteams, then I don't think 1-2 players from EACH scumteam (or alternatively, an ENTIRE scum team) would be lurking; that's just too many. Therefore, half the scum can't be lurking. No, most of them are in the active players list; I'm quite sure of it.

---

Well, that's my catchup post. It's a bit long, unfortunately. Since I figure you'll want a summary...
Now...what's changed?

-Werewolf has gone from neutral-who-needs-looking-into from this half, into Scum.
-Other reads haven't changed.
*However, I need to meta Evil and compare his play.

~-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

EditBWOP: Add tyler to the bolded list.

All of the people in that list, I need the meta of. Meaning, your latest completed games. Preferably, one scum and one town if you have them as both alignments, but if not, I'll take whatever you've got. Two town, one town, one scum, whatever.

[Calcifer]

Since it's shorter, I'll do Evil's town meta first, Mostly Mountainous. (Hey, I have a setup with a similar name!)

For reference, this is just data. To analyze it, I'll actually need to put it all together: scum, town, current play, compare them, get a general feel for Evil...it's probably going to look a lot like Information instead of Analysis. It's going to contain a lot of information, sure, but once I have it in front of my eyes as an actual post (instead of just as text), then I'll be able to analyze it.

Spoiler: Town Game, Evil

Side-note: Evil is fond of short posts, at least as town. I'll see if this is true of him when he's scum as well.

Evil's RVS vote is on Antihero, presumably due to Evil's scum game before. This tells me Evil held an RVS grudge as town.

Is confused by Fate.

posts a slightly different take on the same conclusion. It's evidence that town-Evil is at least

attempting

to give a new perspective, even if he did not do so very well.

(Presumably) still confused, Evil asks for clarification.

When a player he had suggested interest in doesn't unvote despite the reasons given, Evil sees it as scummy, so he votes. Following through on a previous suspicion.

I don't get why there was confusion in the game over Evil's post here; he's implying with his words that he's agreeing with Seraphim and that Seraphim is town, even though he does not state it.

Posts a pretty unhelpful comment; I

think

this is implying he's not agreeing with Parama, and believes Antihero is town; it

might

be--therefore--implying agreement with Fate as well, though as his vote remains on Llar, I don't think so, though he might be thinking about it.

Continues this with pointing out Parama's OMGUS, which is contributing, if Evil considers that case of OMGUS scummy. (There's a difference between town-OMGUS and scum-OMGUS, after all.)

Doesn't understand the use of shameless wagoning here, though it was supposed to be obvious that they were referring to shamelessly wagoning Parama, not Fate or someone else. From this, I gather that Evil genuinely does get confused rather easily.

When clarified, still doesn't like it--an understandable town stance; wagoning without true reasoning is normally considered bad. (Fate games--from what I understand--are...special, that way. )

He does not see evidence of him being scum--which I agree with; his posts show indication of scum hunting in them, even if it's not very strong, and sticking by his opinions/beliefs, even if they're incorrect. Unless he does that convincingly as scum as well, I'll be looking for evidence of that in this game.

When questioned, he elaborates on his stance. (I don't seem to recall this that much from this game. I seem to remember him doing more defending, rather than elaborating. There's a difference. Might be the difference between town-Evil [elaborating on his stance], and scum-Evil [defending his stance].)

When asked about Guderian, he gives this as a response. It shows a good insight into a player, even with a limited amount of information available.

Calls chess ridiculous. This implies he thinks chess is town, but wrong.

Not sure about anything in this; it probably means he doesn't have a Fate read.

Gives useful insight--he doesn't necessarily agree with Fate's case, but the fact that Parama's attitude showed disregard for it meant he was suspicious to Evil. Or, something like that, anyway.

Correctly points out how he has clarified the case against him, and how he thinks the suspicion against him is like the garbage a lot of other people were posting. Says--essentially--that chess is posting fluff.

Again, in this post, I see clarification and elaboration on his stance, not defending and excuse-making.

Forms a strong opinion immediately, with three players called obvtown, and votes for a legitimate reason which (to my knowledge) hadn't been brought up. (I am skimming, though, the wall posts. Evil's an easy read. )

Evil takes the stance that the people calling Guderian obvtown are not correct, however, he still thinks Guderian is town, when compared to Llamar.

Makes a long post, for the first time. (On day three.) Says he'll stop ignoring players, and has Zach correctly labeled as scum.

Again, clarifies his bad wording.

Hints at trying to get a read on vezok unsuccessfully.

It's for this very reason that I'll need a better Evil read.

EvilPacMan:

I need a game where you were scum from the beginning, for comparison. (I'll still read Flameaxe's game, though. Well, at least, where you come in.)

Spoiler: The Read, Continued

He forms his own opinion on MPR, concluding MPR is town being mislynched.

Gives a nice rebuttal of Fate, in my opinion. (And from what I understand, that takes guts.)

Evil actually had the correct read (and points out his previous reads as being correct), giving his reasoning for thinking who the scum (and town) are quite nicely. And manages to figure out what Fate was.

Explains his actions, having formed the conclusion that the town has auto-won.

Clarifies that he formed common sense conclusions, proof that he really has a good insight into the game.

Alright, that's his town game finished.

Sorry for the length; I don't expect anyone to read it, really; I'll be bringing up relevant parts later. (It's, uh, just how I work. I've got an unusual brand of logic, so while this might look worthless to you, to me, it's a goldmine.)

I'm going to work on his scum game, though again, I'd also prefer in addition to it a scum game from the beginning.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

I hope you forgive me for not reading all 104 pages of Evil's suggested game for me to read; that'd make even my eyes bleed a little.
(I've read the end, though I don't remember why. I think my name came up somewhere, and I was intrigued, tracked it down, and read the last part of the game.)

Spoiler: Evil's Scum Meta

evil comes in on this page.
He starts by bussing dana. (Yay, I remembered to keep the alignments of all players in mind, this time! )

Continues bussing, despite dana's cop claim.

Comes in strongly with a wall. He states his opinions there rather well. As I'm reading it, I'd be thinking he was town, because I worked the same way as town when I replaced into a late game.

I'm assuming RECKONER is Reck in the OP... so now he's DH (only person in this game I know). Hopefully DH is a little less lazy...

Relevant, given his stance on people he knows this game. Also shows that he's a somewhat gutsy player; he busses two of his buddies immediately, and only one town player; that's the inversion of the common "two town and one scum" move I see scum so often doing.

This seems relevant. He hates to be underestimated. (Though it's a good thing as scum--if they don't think you're that good, and you are, victory! )

Side-note: In this game--despite his bussing--he seems to mostly be commenting lazily so far, not giving unique insight. His first post screamed town, but the ones following it look like they give it away. More than that, even his first post had its flaws, though subtle. I think I'm beginning to get a feel for Evil, both as scum, town, and general. Still, a scum game from the beginning would be nice to solidify my read, and I am only on page 72.

Fails to deliver promised content. This is in contrast to his play as I see him as town, where he follows through with what he says.

Evil as scum basically policy-votes. I don't remember town-Evil doing that; he was against the idea.

Remember explanations versus excuses? This reads as the latter.

Side-note 2: More lack of real reasons behind his vote. Additionally, when he asks questions, they do not give off the same legitimately confused vibe; I got the impression he was instead, well, faking them.

The wall here seems to say a lot, but looking at it, I'm not seeing the same insight town-Evil had. I'm seeing statements, but not on the same level. It's more "this is wrong/right", rather than, "my view on this is x, which is different than your view [y], because of z."--which is what town-Evil does.

Remember the other half of elaboration versus excuse? You know, clarifying versus defending? Guess which this is. Hint: it's not the former.

This might have relevance. If he likes being scum more, there might be a way to detect the difference in his posting style. I'll have to look for it, better.

His followup post shows how dangerous of a scum player he is; that was some incredible insight, for someone apparently so new at the time.

And I finally finished. Dang, I started at 9. It's 2:20, now. >_<
(These game reads take so long, but the reward is well worth the effort. Got town meta, got scum meta, now I need to look at the current game, and form my conclusion.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Many apologies, but considering I have to leave soon, I don't think I'll be able to finish my read on Evil. I know what his play will be like as both town/scum, and that means determining which he is this game will be quite easy, for me, but, well, it takes time to do that. LOTS of time. >_<
Will resume--with luck--tomorrow.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Nacho/Mastin, can you guys keep posting under one account and not have schizophrenic reads?

Do you mean posting under one account? 'Cause it looks like Nacho only posted outside of this account due to being V/LA; he probably made similar messages for all his games.

Also, I sig every time, to let you know it's me, as if my unique style didn't already make it clear enough. So you can tell when it's me.

DH wagon needs more coal to keep it chugging along!

Actually, I did some analysis. I determined we had three viable wagons for day one: Demon, Evil, and You. Of them, the Demon lynch gives me the least amount of information on other players, regardless of whether Demon flips town or scum. You and Evil provide more information. I haven't checked for sure, but I believe Evil gives a little more than you do.

So, no Demon lynch today. For the most information, it's either you or Evil. (I'll elaborate if asked to.)

i didn't know mastin was a "well-known" scumhunter. i had the impression they were a lurky VI.

You don't have to be a good scum-hunter to be well-known. I'm definitely well-known. Just instead of me being famous, you need the prefix "in" to be in front of it. I could ramble on the subject all day, but the short version is, I enjoyed the thrill of the hunt, way too much, to the point where games where I wasn't under suspicion seemed boring (hence, the lurking tendencies). When things got interesting (AKA, when I came under suspicion), I posted wall after wall; that was my definition of fun. Only later did I realize the consequences of my actions: in my quest for fun, I

ruined

games I was in, so I decided right then and there to stop being a VI and actually try to improve my play.

Don, in the future, please provide links and/or names, not just numbers. Not a chance I'm going to browse the pages just to figure out what you're talking about.

Also, stop being so harsh on the newer players. As they are new, treat 'em no differently than you would if you were an IC. This isn't a newbie game, sure, but they're still new, they'll need legitimate help, and saying stuff like "don't play the newbie card" won't help them actually scum hunt. There are ways to tell newbie-scum from newbie-town, and it looks like you put almost zero effort into it.

For instance, Ross gave a legitimate opinion on two players, and was the first to say BOTH were scum. Before, it was always "oh, this person's scum, but the other [is town/I'm not sure of]"; he added new content, new insight, by saying both were. Find me someone who did that before Ross, and I'll retract that point; otherwise, it remains to be a town tell.

Anyway, I need to finish my Evil read. I'm close to finding my answer on whether he's town or scum, hopefully. (Though--again--meta's not an all-powerful tool; it's a good way to get a feel for a player, and I think I have a feel for Evil-town and Evil-scum, so can determine which he is this game.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

*To clarify:
Ross isn't a new player, obviously, but it's an example of a read that I feel Don was only looking half-heartedly at, not really thinking about it for more than a few seconds. His harsh treatment of newbies and his general reads feel like they are extremely lazy, putting no intention to look even remotely beyond the surface. When you look only at the literal meaning, you are not being a good player; EVERYone has to do a little reading between the lines. I do so more than most people do, but still, everyone needs at least some of that basic effort to understand the meaning.

And when you do that, Ross looks town, not scum. Most of the newbies look good, too, yet from what I saw, you didn't have a positive opinion on any of them.
That is not how any good player plays mafia.

[Calcifer]

Spoiler: Evil this game

Evil opens the game by voting everyone he knows. I'm still waiting on Evil to give me an example of him as scum from the beginning, because while I have an idea of how town-Evil acts, I still need scum-Evil.

This reeks of excuses. I don't see the elaboration and clarification I expect from town-Evil. I see the defensive tone from scum-Evil.

He walls early on. Walling from Evil as town seems to mainly focus on making cases against someone. Walling from Evil-Scum (:P) seems to be mainly focused on defense. It's divided into seven quoted areas, so I'll give my feeling for each.
1: Defense. The sarcasm clarifies nothing.
2: Some specific phrasing makes my gut go "defense", but the overall feeling looks like clarification and elaboration.
3: Reads as more of a...defensive accusation? It's like a weaker version of OMGUS. I don't think that's town-Evil.
4: Feels a bit condescending, but otherwise, clarification.
5: Sounds defensive.
6: Not valid, either way; it's a comment about Nacho, so nothing either way. Neutral by logic, though my blasted gut wants to say it's somehow scummy. (I hate using my gut. You can never explain your reads. >_<)
7: Seems a bit defensive, to me. I got the defensive tone from it, and while there might be a little elaboration, it read as a defense to me.

Overall, has elements I expect from town-Evil, but mostly seems like Evil-Scum.

I'm not sure about this post against early-lynching, but I believe something similar came up in his town game; I'll need to double-check to make sure his stance adds up.

Anyway, my read is finished. To sum it up...

-Evil reads to me to have been more defensive (rather than elaborating and clarifying), which seems to be a scum tell for him.
-Did an early wall, focused mainly on defense, instead of offense.

That's about it, for now. Have to leave; be back (with luck) tomorrow.

~-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

No, what I mean by schizophrenic reads, is that you and Nacho need to get together and discuss things before you provide output. Both heads disagreeing drives me crazy and I will count that as contradictions.

We agree on more than we disagree; that is good enough for me.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Agree on everything. Everything else will be marked down as a contradiction.

Do you expect two players to agree on everything?

"Of course not. They're in different player slots."

Alright, then how about this: do you expect a replacement to share the opinion of their predecessor? They have the same player slot, after all!

...No, no you're not. My view on Hydras is like that. We're two different players. We're never going to agree on EVERYTHING. We agree on most things, and like I said, that's enough for me.

Mastin: please tell me which of rosswilliam's 3 posts tell you he's town.

Done so multiple times.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

I have since elaborated on why that makes him town, even doing so in the post above yours.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Having uniform reads is reasonable enough since we don't disagree on too much.

[Calcifer]

I've reached the conclusion that my argument with Don is a philosophical difference, but I do believe that I'm right and that if Don doesn't try to look under the surface, that he'll never catch scum. (Which I feel he has not done.) Maybe one, two if he's REALLY lucky, but beyond that, I truly feel looking at the intention is SUCH a huge part of scumhunting that he'll miss all the rest. The rest of the town can ignore this debate; it's delving into Mafia Theory quite some bit.

Spoiler: So, Don, This is my response to elaborate why you NEED to look at more than the surface

ross basically chimes in with one sentence of alleged content and uses that sentence to point the finger at two of the more vocal players in the game. not to mention that both players were on opposite sides of an argument, thus giving ross an easy way to justify a vote on either of them at a later time. how is this "town" again?

You're doing it again. Reading the literal meaning. Read a book or two, don, or better yet, take up poetry and try to see in those the metaphorical meaning, because you're obviously not reading beneath the surface. He's not trying to justify a vote on either of them. He's saying he thinks they're both scum. The first might be what's on the surface, the second is quite clearly the meaning behind the words. I'm a writer. That's what I do, see the intention, instead of the surface.

please point out the "harsh treatment".

Thinking about it some more, I actually saw this in pretty much your entire post. I'd quote every example, but that'd be too long. I'd quote a specific example, but you'd shoot it down as being inaccurate while ignoring the fact that I say it's just an example of that attitude. Just re-read your post, and see how many things in there could be seen as...oh, how do I say it? Strict, holier-than-thou, a bit condescending, stuff like that? I'm looking for a specific word for the post to describe it better, but it eludes me. Needless to say, the harsh treatment has to do with your tone. It really comes off as...well, honestly? A bit arrogant.

Your accusation of me ad homming is quite new to me, but I can assure you, is quite false. There is no insult intended in saying you're not reading beyond the literal meaning. It's quite clearly the fact I see in front if me. There is no insult intended in me saying every good player learns to do a little. It's true, in my experience, because that's the only way to catch scum reliably, to look at the intention, not what's actually there. You're not doing it, which means, sure, that I suppose I'm implying you're not being a good player, but it's meant as a friendly criticism, as I think you're town, advice you'd be best off following, in order to improve your play.

yes. i read the entire thread. i pointed out what i felt was off while i was reading it. i then laid my vote on who i felt was the most suspicious of all. the guy with two poorly reasoned votes, no content, and a fingerpoint at two players in an early argument. zero scumhunting. zero content. two votes.

So? You've read the entire thread. That's good! You're caught up in the game.

...But you obviously misinterpreted me, because that was not what I was saying. I was saying everyone needs to put the effort into reading the meaning behind the words, because it really works better. You reading the thread has no relevance. In a way, though I suppose I could say...you've read the thread, but you haven't

read

the thread.

when you do what? ignore their play? pretend they are giving content when they are not? if you are going to DEFEND a group of players then you need to produce a little more than "well, if you look past the surface you will see they are town.

you are full of bs. you are defending players who have done nothing to deserve it. you are not adequately explaining anything. tell me, in 50 words or less, why you think rosswilliam is not deserving of a vote.

Alright, this is wrong on so many levels for me, Don.

I am in no way ignoring their play. If anyone is, it's you, because of your stubborn refusal to look at more than the surface. Simply put, they ARE giving content; you just need to learn to read HOW they are. (Well, Werewolf isn't, so Werewolf is scum, but everyone else I notice IS giving content.)

Simply put, yes, you need to look beyond the surface. You need to look at intentions, rather than words, because intentions are the key to understanding a player. If their motivation is scum-based, their intentions shine through. They come off as in general trying to be more careful, trying to dodge the lynch--and in this game, dodge the opposite faction's kill as well, most likely. Town motivation is simply to lynch scum. And their intentions show this, even if their words do not.

Have you EVER played in a Newbie game, in the last, like, year and a half, Don? This is something I see coming up so often, I quite frankly am shocked you don't seem to acknowledge it. Simply put, a LOT of Newbies don't know how to scum hunt, what to do, how to play, etc. That's why we have ICs and SEs, Don: to teach them HOW to do their job as their alignment. With newbie players, it's very common to have to look at their intentions, not their words. Same goes for VIs, for that matter. Their literal wording can be quite scummy. Heck, everyone in every game says something which is scummy at some point or another. But plenty of town say scummy things, especially when they're newer to the game. We don't lynch 'em all, do we?

No, we look at their intentions. We find out if what they say is really scummy, or if it's just their inexperience, background, meta, etc. We find out whether they're scum NOT by looking for blatant scumslips--sure, they exist, but not very often. We find out if they're scum by looking for the SUBTLE scumslips, and subtle can only be done if you look beneath the surface.

Ross is an example. I have said many times why it made him town. He was

providing new insight,

not merely copying others

. Sure, his suspects were the two most suspicious people in the game. On the surface, yeah, that looks bad. Underneath, however, when you look at his INTENTION, then it becomes more clear. He was not trying to justify a vote for one or the other. With that, he'd mirror others and say "I think one of these two is scum, but I'm not sure which", or something like that. No, he flat-out said he was suspicious of both of them; that shows he intends to lynch BOTH of them, that he thinks BOTH are scum, and that's something which I feel is a town intention.

If you really wanted to, Don, I could go through every single player on the playerlist to show you the difference between literal wording and actual intention. If you want me to, Don, I can bring up every newbie game I've read and bring up examples of looking at intentions, instead of literal meaning.

There is no BS in my argument, Don. There SHOULDN'T need to be an explanation for all of this, because--it's as I said:--it's what I see as a

fundamental part of mafia

, what true scumhunting is made of

. And if you really can't see this, if you truly can't agree with anything I've said, then...then I'm not sure what else I can do for you. This is so part of my fundamental being, the core of who I am, that...that seeing anyone with such a different take on things...it's really two sets of codes too different to ever be compatible.

Now with that personal debate out of the way, I'd like to continue on.

Calcifer, am I to expect the OMG-are-you-seriously-posting-this-many-times-in-a-row approach?

That'd be Nacho mainly, actually. Only time I post multiple times is if I feel my post'd be too long, otherwise. And to correct things I feel need clarification, of course.

VOTE: Empking - his hunting, so far, seems fake.

Odd, looked quite genuine to me.

Also, if you're into meta, this is exactly how [Empking] played the above-linked scum game.

Empking:

Would you mind responding to this?

---

About Ross: Another thing to consider about him is information. If we lynch him, what information do we gain?
Pretty much none.

When we lynch (in my current preference order) Evil, Guderian, or Demon, what information do we gain?

A heck of a lot more, I can tell you that right now. (Again, I do have this thought out fairly well, and can give the information on request.)

---

I understand Demon's take on the Hydra situation, now, and I'll try to keep to the request. (Problem is, if you haven't noticed, when I have a personal belief, I stick to it stubbornly until I find conclusive proof that I'm wrong, which almost never happens. If this belief happens to pertain to a particular player, then it's hard for me to bite my tongue and not say anything.)

Anyway, due to the whole Ross thing, I'll do a reread on them. That point still felt like a huge town-tell to me, but it's no excuse to ignore anything else from them.

-Mastin. (Will post again when looking at Ross's posts again.)

[Calcifer]

Ross only has three posts, which means he needs to post more often, but even those three give me plenty of content. Let's start with the first.

Spoiler: this became a bit long, so I'm spoilering it

His first post is seen by (apparently) a lot of others as being scummy, despite it being the post I found to be proof Ross was town. The relevant pieces of information are in the last paragraph:

[The vote count will] help me catch up. At a glance, don't like EPM or DH but I do need to read more carefully before getting in depth. Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us. 12-2-2 is more likely, but there is no guarantee that the two mafia groups are the same size. Maybe one is larger, but less powered. All my role pm said was that there was two groups, no specifics.

Sentence by sentence:
-He wants to look at the votecount. Votecount analysis is a HUGE part of the game; looking at votecounts is one of the best ways to find scum, in my opinion. It becomes more useful after flips, but is still helpful before then, because it can help show alarming trends. The intention looks quite town to me.
-The questioned sentence. He doesn't like Evil, he doesn't like Demon, but he wants to read them each closer, before going into more depth. This was a HUGE town-tell to me, because it's EXACTLY how I was thinking, exactly what I would have done in that situation. He is the first to say he doesn't like BOTH Evil and Demon. Before, everyone else was saying that they didn't like ONE of the two, sure, but never BOTH of them; I think there were a few which had one scummy and the other neutral, but never both suspicious.

I saw only two possible ways to read the intention. 1: He was setting up being able to vote for either of them. This, to me, makes little sense. Why not just employ a classic fencesit? He could have just said "I think one or the other is scum, but I'm not sure which". He could have mirrored the opinion of anyone else, with the other as a neutral read, and then later changed it to be reversed if need be, because neutrals can go either way.
Instead, he said "I don't like EPM or DH". That doesn't say either of the above. That says, indirectly, looking at his meaning, "I think BOTH are scum."

Which was a completely new opinion. That doesn't make sense for scum-Ross to take that stance.

2: He was stating his honest opinion. Not only does it get his thoughts out into the game, it also gives a new insight into the game, because nobody before him had that opinion. As town, it makes perfect sense to bring out a new opinion; that makes up a huge section of my scum hunting guide, after all. He brought new information to the table, instead of just mirroring another. Instead of wanting to lynch one or the other, he wants to lynch BOTH, because he has the opinion both are scum.

More than that, he wants to double-check, he wants to re-evaluate his reads, to confirm them. He wants to go into depth about them. And that's another town tell from me.

From two sentences, this guy looks to be either (a) incredibly lucky to have hit exactly what makes me think someone is town, (b) someone who actually read my revised guide all the way through and knows how to pull my strings, or (c) actually town.

-Gives an opinion on the scum, saying 10-3-3 looks unlikely. I don't see how that's scummy on the surface. It seems null. That said, I don't think it needed to be said, so I can understand if someone else sees an ulterior motive, but if there is one, I can't put my finger on it.
-Elaborates, and states he thinks that 10-3-3 would be unbalanced. I'll need to check into who had posted on the subject before; he might have been mirroring others with this, which WOULD be scummy, especially without acknowledgment.

-Brings up 12-2-2 as possible, but I got the impression he thought that was small, with him stating there's no guarantee that both sides are the same size. If this was a new opinion, it is good insight. If someone else brought up uneven scum teams before him, it's mirroring, which'd be scummy.
-Elaborates, stating that the smaller one could be more powered, to the larger one's less powered. See above.

-His last statement was Really unnecessary to say, but I don't see how him stating it is any indicator of alignment. I don't see anything below the surface in that, either.

His next post is a one-liner, bringing up a valid point about iam. I see nothing scummy about that question; it's valid. I can't see anything below the surface, either. It looks town.

His last post is him voting Demon. This is him following through on his first post. Unlike, say, me, he doesn't give a wall of text for reasons why, but I got the distinct impression he followed through with his readthrough--like he promised in his first post--and found Demon scummy. I consider follow-through such as that to be a town-tell; see my Evil as town meta for more on that.

---

All in all:
-Ross hasn't said much this game. That's troublesome, and Ross needs to fix that.
-In what he HAS said, however, I see a bunch of things I consider town tells.
*While there are a few things in Ross which I can see as being scummy, I don't see them as condemning enough for a lynch.
*That said, however, I haven't fully researched the time around his first post, and a few of the things which could be scummy rely on me doing a little more research.

-And even if we did lynch Ross, what kind of information would it give us about other players? Ross has only addressed a grand total of three players. Whereas people like Evil, Guderian, and Demon have addressed almost everyone, and therefore, give us plenty of information. Heck, EACH of them gives me STRONG reads on AT LEAST two, maybe three other players, REGARDLESS of their alignment.
I cannot say the same of Ross. We'd only get information from the wagon forming, and I feel that isn't as strong as the information we'd have from pretty much any other. Lynching Ross so soon is like policy-lynching a VI. Sure, gives information. Not nearly as much as lynching a non-VI would have. (And by this, I do mean policy-lynching.) That's the feel I get from Ross's lynch, anyway. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, right now.

~-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

About Ross: Another thing to consider about him is information. If we lynch him, what information do we gain?
Pretty much none.

NOT that I'm up for a RW lynch at the moment; but "information" is not a good reason to proceed to a lynch, or not. Suppose a wagon on RW were to start. More information would be created. So reluctance to lynch a player because there isn't 't "enough information" is based on a belief that no further information can be gathered. Doesn't work for me.

Addressed. We DO get information, yes.

But is it as good as the information we'd get from Evil, Guderian, or Demon being lynched?

No, not to me.

(Anyway, I think I'm done posting for now.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Mastin, why do you want to get information rather than lynch scum? If you want to lynch scum, vote DH.

Nah, I want both. Given the chance between lynching one player who I think is scum, but gives little to no information...
...And a player who I think is scum, which'll give me a ton of information...

...I'll take the latter. Even if I thought Ross WAS scum (which I don't), then I'd want to lynch Evil/You/Demon, who I AM suspicious of, more than Ross, because all three of you have had beautiful interactions with others, giving a lot more information.
Information-->Good.
Lynching suspect-->Good.
Information AND lynching a suspect-->Great. Ross doesn't give as much information as you three, nor am I personally suspicious of him. Therefore, Ross is not the best lynch. Simple logic, to me.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

You people made me log into this account for no reason.

You can add DGB into the town column, though.

[Calcifer]

Same here. Plus, in a multiscum game, expect to see no fake hunting until one faction has been destroyed, so this is actually really bad reasoning coming from chkflip.

I was this was the case. But do you honestly believe that all scum are going to actually be looking for the other team as opposed to just aiming to survive throughout the day?
NAHHHHH

This EPM wagon gives me WAY too many happy tinglies to switch. We would be tempted to switch, though, especially if this game keeps lagging. We expect this to chance one the game hits about Tuesday or so, though.

[Calcifer]

Unvote, Vote: werewolf

Now claim.

[Calcifer]

Werewolf was dragging out waiting to claim unnecessarily. DJ is right that claiming at L-1 with someone waiting to hammer is usually the best time to claim, but that assumes that you're actually trying to do something to turn the wagon on you around, not that you're screaming "Lynch me! Lynch me!". Getting content out of you is also like pulling teeth, so you wouldn't be useful to us if you were town anyways.

It hurts me to take my vote off EPM, though, and can only hope that the town will push through his lynch if I'm shot.

[Calcifer]

Good enough for me. he's top of my scumlist anyway.

vote: werewolf

Lol @ rolefishing

[Calcifer]

Quick Notes: Sorry for the four-day absence or so; Minor Holidays are still Holidays.

Spoiler: worthless, as someone else brought it up before me but I dislike deleting stuff

From here to here, there were four votes on Werewolf. One, possibly two, of them are scum. (If it's two, it'd be two from different teams.) Evil is obviously my choice.

I really don't see any sort of new insight coming from Ross.

I got the impression Ross was saying they were both scum, on the same team, from his post, which WOULD be new insight. I'll double-check this, however.

I'm getting kinda tired of tyler now too.

Key question, though: do you think he is scum? "Tired" to me implies, "I'm annoyed at him, but think he's town." That's what I see looking behind your wording. Mind clarifying?

---

It need not be said, that Werewolf is scum. I have a theory about the early (read: first four voters) scum on his wagon, and that is that--if I'm correct--the scum on his early wagon is the partner (read: one of the four), not a late-joiner. Late-joining would be the obvious tactic (when it became clear Werewolf was Scum, so they'd join to look good), so if the scumbuddies have so much as half a brain, they'll avoid the obv-late-bus and hope to blend in to the early bus. (More than that, scum are more in-tune to their own buddies' scumslips. I know I find more scumslips by my partners and myself than I ever would if town when I'm mafia.) Now, the OPPOSITE scum faction, on the other hand, well, they probably came in a bit late on the wagon. (I see probably 3 scum on the wagon, probably one from Werewolf's faction, and two from the other. Both bussing their buddy seems a bit unlikely. None seems equally impossible, hence, one busser from his faction. The opposite obviously will have one on, but not all three on, so it's either one or two, and I feel like two is more likely, since they're lynching scum...just not their faction.
And if my theory is correct, about the numbers, it makes sense for one werewolf-faction-scum to come in early, for one not-werewolf-faction-scum to come in late, and another not-werewolf-faction-scum coming in at, well, any time, really.)

It makes sense to me, at least.

I'll need to double-check all the voters and unvoters around the timeframe to see exactly who is who.

[Calcifer]

EditBWOP: This is Mastin, by the way; sorry I forgot to include that. Anyway, I've got things to check up on.
1: Ross's post,
and
2: The Werewolf Wagon. (Which I think is on scum, with a grand total of 3 scum on it.)

[Calcifer]

It makes sense to me, at least.

A lot of this speculation is contingent on DH's alignment.

How? It's on Werewolf, who just admitted he was scum in his posts. I'm not talking a bad scumslip, here, which is "admitting they're scum". I'm talking about a good, honest confession which outside the RVS comes only
From 1: A troll,
or
2: Actual scum.

I'm going to assume Werewolf isn't a troll,
And is therefore scum,
And therefore, there's no doubt as to his alignment.

If that makes sense to you. (Curse my unusual logic!)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

KITORIIIIIIIIIII

Love you,
you will be sorely missed.

R.I.P.

[Calcifer]

Vote: evilpacman18

.

[Calcifer]

VOTE: EVILPACMAN

Calcifer (Nachommamma >>> likely scum if pacman flips scum.)

This is scum making sure that they can take down a threat along with the downfall of their buddy.

EPM dies today.

(Mastin will be taking over for a day, so you'll see none of me.)

[Calcifer]

Sorry hydra ninja >.>

[Calcifer]

FoS: bvoigt

. Distancing from Evil, but refusing to bus, instead sticking onto a much weaker vote.

[Calcifer]

Exactly. But why is iamausername not guilty of this, while bvoigt is?

They both are, but it's who they vote for which is important. Iam votes for UT, which is a valid vote.
bv votes for a relatively-new player who is a little on the lurkerish side.

Which of those looks worse?

[Calcifer]

Interesting case. I've done the same thing when I was scum, so I can believe this. Although, did she actually give a reason? When I was scum I tried to convince the rest of the town that the link was there.

No, but it didn't really seem like anyone but EPM was going to get lynched yesterday until the whole werewolf fiasco, so I think that this is a perspective that she would push after the EPM scumflip.

DH, what information would you get from Guderian flipping Cop as opposed to Vanilla Townie? How would that change your decision?

[Calcifer]

Mastin's entrance reads SCUM.

Funny, considering I didn't even have a PM at the time. Well, obviously I did when I posted, but that post was, like, 95% written before I even knew for sure if I was going to hydra.

If the two heads of a hydra are co-ordinated effectively, is that a towntell or a scumtell? Calcifer not allowed to answer.

Which fallacy is this, False Dilemma? I know, you said not to answer, but what about "null"? A possibility you left off?

The fact Mastin backed down to DH is unbelievable...particularly given DH obviously doesnt believe in his own jargon lol.

Eh? I don't understand what you're saying, here. Mind clarifying? Seriously, that made no sense to me.

What about the other team? I haven't seen any mention of your suspects for this.

I'm not Nacho, so I can't answer for him, but my notes say both Demon and UT were high on the list. Demon and UT read as buddies, and Demon-Evil-UT-DGB is too large for a single scum team, so that means Demon probably isn't on the same scumteam as Evil, but is still scum. I read their interaction as scum-on-scum, and--as I mentioned originally--my thoughts were 'BUSSING!'

---

On a side-note, I think I remember doing some wagon analysis in my notes. I'll see if I can find it.

---

Seems like that's about all my half can answer. Now to drag up that VCA.

[Calcifer]

Gah, I'm torn. One part of me says that EPM is obvious scum, the other part says Calcifer is doing exactly what he's accusing DGB of doing.
Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

vote: DemonHybrid

You mention EPM being obvious scum, and you call me a hypocrite. Then, you vote DH.
I thought you were town this game >.>

I want to know Guderian's role asap before I come to any definite conclusions.

What will Guderian flipping Tracker as opposed to Vanilla Townie tell you? That you have one less powerrole to worry about?

I'd bet my house on Calcifer being scum but I haven't like DH all game. So...

Unote

Vote: DH

Now here's a bet I would LOVE to take.
Although I wonder why you're backing down so soon.

OK. So you think that EPM is likely to be DGB's partner. What about the other team? I haven't seen any mention of your suspects for this.

Haven't thought about the other team, to be completely honest.
Off the top of my head, Parama and bvoigt would be my top 2.

I'm willing to accept i might be wrong, but do you see why offering the cop-out is unhelpful and unconducive to discussion?

Depends on what you're looking for.

You backed down to DH's crap about the heads of a hydra being in agreement. I think that you know exactly how a hydra works, and could defend your position. Instead, you inexplicably tried to appease him, when it seemed hilariously evident that he didnt have conviction in his ridiculous attack.

I'm not an asshole. When a game's suffering from a lot of inactivity and replacements and then ANOTHER person is threatening to replace out, sometimes you just have to swallow your pride.

Dammit, if you're so bent on lynching one of two people without doing anything constructive today, flip a coin. Let's get on something new or get this over with. I have no reason to post the way this day is going.

I have a few two-headed coins laying around here that I could flip.
And how the hell can you pretend like you're in a position to say something like this? What content have you been providing? What effort have you been making to make the lynch something OTHER than you?
NOTHING. ZILCH. NADA.

[Calcifer]

And now I sense opportunism in that BM wants to start a wagon on me so you'll finally respond to what is, in game terms, an "old" post and try to call it a scumtell.

Or the other part of the hydra is catching up on what he's missed, but nice effort though.
Why would I care about starting a wagon on you anyways?

One part of me sees obvious EPMscum, the other part says Calcscum. Both parts say DH scum. This is exactly what my post says, in the same terms. I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite OR scum.

How the hell did you expect me to discern this from your post...?

[Calcifer]

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

I'm not active lurking in the slightest, so you must be thinking of someone else. Anywho...

What prompted this?

[Calcifer]

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

My vote goes wherever scum is most obvious, which is in this case DH. Once we get through that scumlynch I'll be able to tell you who's the scum out of EPM/Calc.

Okay, fair enough.

I'm not active lurking in the slightest, so you must be thinking of someone else. Anywho...

What prompted this?

Your defense that you play this way every game is pretty much meaningless. If I intentionally active lurk every game, would the fact that I do so every game make it any better? No. It makes it worse.

I think that you misinterpreted this. He was just giving an example of what he regarded was an anti-town playstyle, he wasn't saying it was your playstyle.


DRK, I can't find what you think about UT.

[Calcifer]

Haha brilliant. Now if you can just provide some proof...?

Theoretically, possible. I can grab the "last modified on" date and take a screenshot of it to prove that I did, indeed, write it before when I joined the game.
In reality, I'm pretty sure that violates, like, half a dozen rules, and I'd rather not get myself modkilled.

I looooooove how DRK's catchup post had lots of FoS's on, y'know, every single dead player in the game. Not to mention, a lot of what he's saying has been said before. Not a scumtell, but highly annoying to find the actual new content in there.

Mastin, did you know your role when you wrote that?

When I WROTE it? Nope.
When I posted it? Naturally.

I see a lot in DRK's entrance posts I don't like. I'll elaborate if requested, but I'm catching up right now. (I'm thinking specifically about DRK's vote, versus a lot of what he was saying earlier, essentially.)

---

The Demon wagon feels like it's got lots of scum on it. It really makes me feel like Evil's scumteam is trying to deflect attention away from their buddy and get a lynch on Demon, instead, to buy their buddy an extra day.

I'll be doing some Vote Count Analysis of my own.

[Calcifer]

2. Parama
3. bvoigt (Rep. Azelf D1)
4. DeathRowKitty (Rep.chkflip D2)
5. tylerjarvis
6.

evilpacman18

7. nhammen
8. don_johnson (Rep. 4computer D1)
9. Battle Mage (Rep. Jmj3000 D2 Rep. RossWilliam D1)
11. Empking
12. iamausername
15. UntrodTripod
16.

DemonHybrid

Player list (minus myself), bolded are leading wagons right now. It makes a handy reference.

Spoiler: VCA

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, nhammen (3)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Typical VCA would say one scum on each of these. (Shortly after this, nhammen votes for Ender--Mentioned reason is not having posted any content, and (related) not having given any suspects.)

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

(2)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
ender241 - nhammen (1)
Calcifer - empking (1)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis, iamausername (2)

Between {UT, nhammen, empking, tyler, iamausername}, I'd expect 1-2 scum from a typical vote count. (If it's 2, it's one from each team.)

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, Ross William, Empking (4)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

Typical VCA suggests 1-2 scum (1 from each faction max) on both wagons, with the remaining scum off.

As stated, there was a quick-wagon on Werewolf, four votes in close proximity. That was {iam, bv,

DGB

, evil}. That has me a bit concerned about the DGB-Evil read, because--while I expect two scum to be there--I expect one from each faction, not two from the same.

After this, nhammen, Empking, and Parama all join. My Playerslot and Demon both joined, but a page later. I'd also expect 1-2 scum in there, but no more.
So, 1-2 scum in {iam, bv,

DGB

, evil}, with DGB as one, and 1-2 scum in {nhammen, Empking, Parama, Demon}. The remaining scum would stay off that wagon.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

, Ross William, don_johnson (4)
evilpacman8 - Demonhybrid, iamausername (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
{Iamusername, Bvoigt,

DrippingGoofball

, Evilpacman18},
{[nhammen, Empking, Parama], Calcifer, DemonHybrid}

That's how the votes fall. Tyler's town. 1-2 scum in each of Demon/Evil (for 2-3 total), and remaining scum on the Werewolf wagon, which I've broken into quickwagon-first-half, slowish-wagon-second-half, with a sub-set between the two pages, with nham-Emp-Parama also being close-proximity votes. It's, uh, complicated, and I'll need to see the results to make sure of it, because I think all of this will paint an interesting picture.

Evilpacman: Calcifer
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama
Tylerjarvis: Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername

Not Voting: Chkflip, Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, nhammen, Don_Johnson, Jmj, UntrodTripod, DemonHybrid

Not much point in analyzing this, considering how many are unvoted. Though I'd expect 1-2 scum from each faction (grand total of 3 maximum, but probably only two) to be voting already, with the remaining scum (probably 3) not having voted.

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

, nhammen
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, Deathrowkitty, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername,

nhammen

Parama: Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis, evilpacman, UntrodTripod

One scum not voting. One to two scum not on a lead wagon. (That's {iam, nhammen, Battle Mage}.) Remaining scum on Demon, with one scum (if it's one, not two, who aren't on a lead wagon) possible on Evil.

That's what I'm getting from the VCA; let's see what it shows when it's posted. But from what I'm seeing, I'm not fond of a Demon wagon.

[Calcifer]

Hey, guys?

Where are DH and EPM, anyways?

[Calcifer]

stuff goes here!

Sure it's not things which go there?

[Calcifer]

DH I SEE YOU POSTING EVERYWHERE BUT HERE

GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE

[Calcifer]

I'll need to double-
and
triple-
check with the actual game results, but my notes say that Demon isn't likely to be scum. My notes say Bv-Parama looks quite bad, too, so I'll be double-checking that as well.

[Calcifer]

2. Parama
3. bvoigt
5. Sensfan (Rep. tylerjarvis N2)
7. nhammen
8. don_johnson
11. Empking
12. iamausername
15. Sharkfinn (Rep. UntrodTripod D2)
16. DemonHybrid

List of players alive (minus self). Notes say that UT (now Shark) is town, and Demon probably is as well. They also say BV and Parama look bad.

Demon's actions towards Evil immediately after the game start are either immediate-bussing or evidence Demon and Evil are not the scum. So, not Eastern.

This seems like evidence that Parama is not aligned with Evil, so if Parama is scum, it's Western.

A 10-3-3 is not balanced by any means. Town has 3 mislynches, yet needs to lynch scum 6 times (in the worst case scenario). So the game's basically relying on crosskills. 10-3-3 is incredibly swingy and if we're playing a 10-3-3 then screw this game. 12-2-2 probably isn't likely either considering that the game could end D2 in the best case scenario. Also very swingy. Meh. 2 mafia factions in a game this small is barely normal anyways.

This seems like 1: Parama is upset that it is 10-3-3, and
2: He is trying to make it seem like it's 12-2-2 when he knows it's not.

The tone I get from that post is not setup speculation from a pro-town player. The tone I get from that post is, "SCREW YOU, MOD! This game isn't balanced at all!" With a small hint of intentional misleading.

Overall, I get a town feeling from tyler here. I'm sure if I dissected the post, I could find out why, but that'd be a distraction.

Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us.

Sound familiar? It should; this is pretty much exactly the same tone I got from Parama's post before. Ross, Western scum. Parama, looking like quite the nice buddy.

Dunno why (call it gut--I'm sure I could find reasons if I looked more into it), but this post makes me feel like Nhammen is the last Eastern Mafia member.

His ender vote came across as a bit odd to me in my original read of the game--and I still stick by that. He picked Ender out of all the others he could have. It reads as too artificial, like it couldn't happen without nhammen being on the same team as ender.

His voting reason could have applied to multiple others, so instead, it feels like a "POST MORE, BUDDY" rather than, "This guy's scum!"

His vote on us looks like it's a bit opportunistic.

Yeah, really liking nhammen-Eastern-scum right now.

---

This is the first five pages. It's produced some strong reads already.

[Calcifer]

BV's entry post makes a lot of sense for him being scum.

-Ross is dead in the middle of his not sure reads.
-Parama is in there as well.
-To me, it makes a lot of sense at this stage to put both buddies at neutral, 'specially with an equal number of town reads to neutral reads, 'cause it's hard to pick this stuff out, hard to notice at first glance.

Whatever happened to 3 being too many, Parama? Contradiction to his earlier attitude, no explanation for his change in opinion between 12-2-2 and 10-3-3.

The post also reeks of opportunism.

DGB puts nhammen in the middle of her town list, and Evil in the middle of her scum list. Coincidence? Possible, but not likely to me.

This post is mostly filler.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the people under each heading are in no particular order.

"Oh, crud, I'm exposing my buddy!"

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

,

Ross William

, Empking (4)

evilpacman8

- Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

At this point, I'd expect to see one scum on Demon, possibly a second from the other faction. On Evil, I'd expect to see scum from the opposite faction. Parama fits the pattern. They'd want one scum on each leading wagon. The third scum in the Western Mafia would be off of both lead wagons, and bv fits that pattern, too.

Opportunistic. I've said it before, that the first 4 on Werewolf contains 1-2 scum (1 from one faction, possibly 1 from another), and DGB (Eastern) and BV (Western) fits this pattern.

I also said that in the second half of the wagon (divided into two halves itself), there's likely to be another 1-2 scum (again, 1 from each faction). And I feel the three votes back-to-back after that are where those scum are.

This fits Nhammen (Eastern), and Parama (Western), though it could be Empking (doubtful).

This reads as scum coaching town. I know 'cause I love to coach town even when I'm scum.

This post reeks of setting up (mis-) lynches on a lot of players.
"I'm willing to lynch all of these guys who aren't my buddies".

Filler, and his post here read to me initially as fluff, but the part about the link being indicated seems like he's setting Demon up.

Again I see a lot I don't like. The speculation about "buddies" (which was never brought up again if memory serves), combined with nhammen. And his followup reads equally as bad to me. There was no indication before this that he thought Werewolf, Demon, and nhammen were a scum team together--heck, he was saying it was 2 scum with a POSSIBILITY of a third, and suddenly, he says he's thought nhammen and Demon were scum with werewolf?

Does not add up.

Sheeping Parama.

"If you kill me, you die!" Reads as desperately trying to get the Eastern Mafia kill off of himself. This post reads as super-bad to me.

I'll try to appease you, but I know you wont accept it.

Then why do it at all? Fear, of course, that he'll be lynched.

"Uh, buddy, forgetting we're not alone?"
"Whoops, yeah, I am."

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

,

Ross William

, don_johnson (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Werewolf

- {Iamusername, Bvoigt,

DrippingGoofball, Evilpacman18

},
{nhammen, Empking, Parama}, {Calcifer, DemonHybrid}

This makes me slightly doubt my Nhammen read. Would all three Eastern Mafia be on a wagon? Still, though, this wagon needs at least two Western--Ross takes care of the Western off the wagon, so there needs to be two on the wagon: {Iam/BV}, and {nham, Empking, Parama} are what I find most likely, with my choices in there quite obvious.

---

Yeah. Finished 14, but Parama-BV-BM is looking quite nice, right now.

[Calcifer]

Fence-sitting on us-Evil, and voting for Demon. Looks really, really bad.

Basically a lurker vote. Very weak reasoning.

This post makes me think Nhammen is Eastern, again. "Interesting case"-->"Hmm, might need to bus my buddy, here." Also agrees with BV's weak vote; more opportunism.

Agrees with the case on Evil, but maintains his far-weaker vote on Tyler. Does not add up.

Filler.

This weakens my read on Nhammen. He's trying to direct more attention onto Evil, it looks like. Though it does make me wonder why he didn't vote...

Defends his poor vote.

Filler.

"Decent choice, buddy, but not the best move." That's what "this is fine" means to me. I'd expect something more definite otherwise. "This is also on scum" "this is not my preferred choice, but is still good" "this is good, but not the best", etc. is what I'd expect if Parama wasn't trying to direct BV elsewhere.

Bussing. His opinion on Nhammen here might be why he died, too. He continues (and heavily increases) his Nhammen suspicion in his next post, but doesn't mention Parama at all. (Hmm, I wonder why?)

He says next that he'd be voting for Parama, but gives absolutely no reasons as to why, despite having given reasons for his other suspects. Also, his comment about DGB approving--DGB was the Western Mafia kill. See where I'm going with this?

Yeah, Nhammen's probably Eastern scum. Battle Mage going against him like this is why I think BM was killed. His Parama read really comes across as bussing.

"Thanks, buddy."

Their exchange comes across as incredibly forced.

Parama's defense here comes across as BS'ing heavily.

DRK's interaction with Parama here, for pretty much the rest of the game, makes me see reasons behind the DRKill.

I must admit, I do have something which makes me doubt bv-Parama, and that's how obvious bv is making it. Unless this was, "I think Parama is town; don't lynch him!" (That'd be super-scummy), this'd be "I think Parama is town." Which'd be "I'm trying to take Parama down with me!" if BV were scum.

This read as setting up three mislynches on people he knows aren't on his team. "When Demon Dies, I'll vote for one of you two. And when the other dies--if they're town--then I'll be able to lynch the other!"

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

"I'm not ready to bus Evil, so I'll try and get another player lynched, instead!"

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

I'll need to check into BM and Parama's activity levels, but I think they were fairly active. This could've been an attempt to get another lurker lynch like on Werewolf, instead of focusing on the more active players.

"Crud, I'm being scummy with my vote by saying one thing and doing another!"

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

, nhammen
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking,

Deathrowkitty

, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername,

nhammen

Parama:

Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis,

evilpacman

, UntrodTripod

Evil needs one scum, and nhammen fits as a buddy bussing, and BV fits as the Western Mafia. Demon has 1-2 scum. I'd say 2, considering Battle Mage takes care of the Western Mafia off of the wagon, and evil takes care of the Eastern Mafia off of a wagon. So, {Parama, DJ, Empking, BV} contains two scum. Guess who?

"Get more active, buddy! I don't want to bus you!" (It works; evil became more active.)

Fluff.

More fluff.

(Honestly, lots of interactions with Demon read as fluff to me.)

This confirms all I need. This is the classic, "two townies and one scum" move. He's suspicious of Evil and Demon, willing to vote either of them, but brings up Parama as scum, too.

Opportunistic.

As was Parama, though he didn't vote.

Evilpacman

: Calcifer, DemonHybrid, nhammen, iamusername, Bvoigt, Don_Johnson, Sharkie
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking,

DRK

Parama:

Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis,

evilpacman

, Sharkie

Evil needs at least 2, if not 3, scum on him. Nhammen (buddy) is one. BV (Western Mafia) makes a good choice for another. Parama was willing t hammer, which'd account for the possible third.
Demon also has one scum. My choice is obviously Parama there, too.

This is almost pure filler. Useful pieces of information can be summed up as this:

UT is probably scum as well, but not on the same team as DH.

Which is just horrible. 1: I have a town-read on both, but 2: If they were scum, it'd be together, not on opposite teams. That's really freakin' obvious if you look at the game.

Parama's VCA is horrible.

Spoiler: Why Is Parama Still Alive?

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, nhammen (3)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Well... I think this is a good starting point for DH-western

This actually is evidence that PARAMA, not DH, is the Western Mafia in here. DH voted early--on page one. Parama voted later. Which of those reads as opportunistic? The page-one-vote, or the much-later vote?

Yeah, Parama just dug himself a hole.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian (2)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
ender241 - nhammen (1)
Calcifer - empking (1)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis, iamausername (2)

hi nhammen you're not eastern

If anything, this was proof of nhammen BEING eastern, not proof AGAINST.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, Ross William, Empking (4)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

hmm...nope, don't think this says much.

It actually does. It says one Western on Demon, one Western on evil, and one Western off. If Parama wasn't the Western, he'd know this.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, Ross William, don_johnson (4)
evilpacman8 - Demonhybrid, iamausername (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
werewolf - Iamusername, Bvoigt, Drippinggoofball, evilpacman18, nhammen, Empking, Parama, Calcifer, DemonHybrid

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

DH holds his EPM vote. Prob not eastern, but most certainly scum.
Actually, what the hell is up with this VC? Now that I look at it, DH and IAAUN are voting twice xD
In other news, I see two eastern on the werewolf wagon. I'd be shocked to see a third, but someone on this wagon, if not two people, are western. Oh look, DH is on the wagon. HMMMMM.

Lots of fluff, and ignoring the fact that Parama's position looks a heck of a lot worse than Demon's position. Parama's in the Butter Zone. (Revised MIT # 2.)

evilpacman: Calcifer
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama
Tylerjarvis: Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername

Votes everywhere! Nothing new!

Then Why post?!?

evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid, nhammen
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, DRK, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername
Parama: Battle Mage

Hey look, DH isn't eastern.
Hey look, I'm not western.

Yeah, 1: fluff (DH obviously isn't eastern), and 2: Ignores a certain thing we like to call "bussing". ESPECIALLY since it wasn't a major wagon. Bussing is best done when it's not a popular wagon, for that's when it has the most impact. Someone like BM would know this.

That was... actually kinda useless. Sigh.

Then why post it at all?!?

Yeah, Parama's so totally scum.

Returning to his weak suspect.

Fluff.

"I'm in trouble; let's make excuses!"

And yet, his vote's on Demon...

---

If it wasn't painfully obvious where all of this was going...

Vote: Parama

.

[Calcifer]

Parama is scum?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
EMPKING IM FUCKING IMPRESSED
We'll work on a post during the night so our quicklynching can be just and swift and fierce.

[Calcifer]

Parama, I said OUR quicklynching, didn't I?

The problem is that I'm NOT scum, meaning Emp's scum too or there's a framer running about, or, most likely, Empking just gambled his ass off. And I want to make sure that after my flip the town's not going to be running around like chickens with their heads cut off. After all, tomorrow morning will be 6-2, my lynch will make is 4-2, and then an Empking mislynch would mean scum win.

I don't expect any of you to believe me, but I might as well make sure Emp doesn't ruin any chance we have of getting a town win.

[Calcifer]

Just a note--I did this before, but it was lost. So, this version is 1: rushed, and 2: not as good.

Hi, everyone! I've kind of been following this game, but I'll read the thread more carefully when I get a chance.

It's all in the wording. This feels like a scum entrance, to me. I know I worded my entrance into a game as scum EXACTLY like this, when I didn't do that as town.

Town
bvoigt
nhammen- seems to be looking for information and making logical decisions.
Empking- His vote for Nacho looks like something a townie would say.
iamausername- see above, except because of his defense of Guderian. I disagree, though, as I'd expect scum to carefully read the sample role PM.
Calcifer- they're making a lot of sense to me.
DemonHybrid- This one's hard to explain, but he's not staying in the background as scum would.

There's one scum in this list of bv's, I'd think.

Not Sure
Parama
chkflip
don_johnson
RossWilliam- I'd like him to explain his DH vote, please.
ender241
Untrod Tripod

See Ross there, dead in the middle? Only one of his neutral reads with a reason. Dead giveaway.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the people under each heading are in no particular order.

"Oh, crud, I made it really obvious who my buddy was with the order! I'll need to make an excuse to explain just how horribly convenient it is!"

Yeah, werewolf logged in yesterday, and he's been posting in other places. Let's see where this goes.

UNVOTE: Guderian
VOTE: werewolf333

Shamelessly wagoning Werewolf. The first four really needs a Western scum, and bv fits.

Werewolf, you don't exactly seem like you're doing your best to scumhunt. It looks like you're mostly just concerned with keeping yourself alive.

Fluff.

I will support an nhammen lynch tomorrow.

Setting up mislynches.

VOTE: tylerjarvis

His HoS on DH seemed weird...I don't see how a "jumpy nature and snap judgments" make someone more likely to be scum. And that's basically all the content he's contributed for the entire game.

Votes a lurker (I believe there was a comment at the time something along the lines of, "come on, REALLY?!?"), and tries to explain it as anything other than just a lurker lynch. Is also being a bit hypocritical about content; I see stuff in his posts, but not nearly as much as there should be for him to have the right to this accusation.

This is a good point. It looks like he might have been trying to subtly discourage a wagon on his buddy. I'm happy with my Tyler vote, though.

Doesn't hop onto the Evil wagon, maintaining a much weaker lurker-vote instead of the good case made against him.

Are you planning to say anything else?

Fluff.

UT has lurked more than Tyler.

This 1: failed to address the concern about BV's lack of Evil vote, and 2: would be reason to vote UT over Tyler, not vice-versa.

BV's vote on Tyler makes no sense at all.

UNVOTE: tylerjarvis
VOTE: evilpacman18

Done after he's been called out for his continuing of the weak tyler case over the stronger Evil case.

Also, I have a townread on Parama.

Buddying to Parama, as there's really no town reason to say this.

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking.

If BV were town, he'd follow through with this statement, look at activity levels, and FIND who the lurkers were and push them. Since he isn't, there are two ways to interpret this statement: A: he's trying to nudge his buddies into talking more, or B: He's trying to get attention onto lurkers. If B, this is particularly bad, as he himself is guilty to some extent.

This game needs a wagon or something.

It had two wagons by that point. There was no use to calling for more, other than perhaps nudging scum-buddies into "vote for a wagon!". There's no town-reason to say this.

DH's hammer did seem fairly scummy, but I'm voting EPM.

"DH looks like a better vote, but I won't vote for him because it'll make me look worse, more obvious when Demon flips."

UNVOTE: evilpacman13
VOTE: DemonHybrid

"Oh, hey, Demon's a better wagon for my team! Let's get this going!" What happened to BV's town read on Demon? Vanished, without a mention as to why there was such a switch.

@DH: Even if Guderian was SK, he didn't have any buddies to defend, and he was still probably trying to scumhunt and gain town cred. So I'm asking you to tell us your logic, please, assuming Guderian was town.

Fluff.

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid
VOTE: evilpacman13

1: "Crud, the Demon vote will look bad!" 2: "Oh, look! I can get a more likely mislynch of Evil if I switch back! I was on before; surely, nobody would notice!"

I'm more convinced that EPM is scum, and I think my previous vote has served its purpose.

BV:

What was that purpose?
I see none in there. At all. Well, from town-BV, anyway. Scum-BV, plenty of purpose. Mind clarifying?

SensFan tylerjarvis
don_johnson 4computer
SharkFinn Untrod Tripod

Unless all 3 Eastern Mafia were on the werewolf wagon, one of these guys is the final Eastern Mafia.

Setting up these players as town makes me think one in there is scum.

Tyler's ISO has almost no scumhunting

Hypocritical, and not entirely true. I got a lot from Tyler, and so should have BV.

With their buddy getting in trouble immediately, perhaps both the newbie scum tried to stop the immediate judgements? I know, it's not a very convincing case, but...just ISO Tyler and see if you get the same feeling of newbie scum.

VOTE: SensFan

Returning to a weak vote which he admits is weak himself. Why not build a better case? Why not vote for someone more likely to get lynched?

Answer: to stay out of the light, to avoid the attention it'd gather on himself.

Low-profile scum.

And yeah, I know my EPM vote was sheeping.

"Whoops, that was scummy, wasn't it? Maybe if I admit it, they'll let me come off clean!"
Nope, not here, anyway.

The main actual reasons were his excuses for active lurking and link to Ender (iamausername's ISO #11).

"Uh...uh...I need reasons! Quickly! Let's throw together a piece of junk to make it pass off as valid!"

I really see no reason for Emp to fakeclaim, so I believe him.

"Oh, good, I'm not in danger."

Wagons Parama, who he knows isn't on his team, and therefore is a good lynch for them.

[Calcifer]

vote DH because he is obviously a bulletproof SK

"Vote for this scummy player because it'll look good!"

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

"The town's scumhunting already?!? B-but...that leaves me nothing to work from to fake my own scumhunting! It's too soon! I'm confused." He had no reads. Which he should have. He should've had SOMETHING. We got?

I'll keep voting DH though.

No reason. No explanation. Just voting for a player at the center of attention.

DH, I found a book about your situation

Image

hope this helps

hugs and kisses,
Untrod

This is scum coaching. I've seen it before, and this fits the bill perfectly. (This seems to be evidence that Demon is town, actually--experienced scum players tend to not coach buddies, but coach TOWN players. I know; I've done it before.)

Never delivers the content promised in his ISO # 5.

but seriously. what the fuck happened here?

No additional reads.

I'm down for lynching nhammen tomorrow

Setting up a mislynch. Like BV. Almost identical wording, too.

No I don't! Promise!

I was actually considering replacing out because I was feeling overwhelmed by this game, but that quote alone makes me want to say. I will start participating starting NAO.

This sounds like scum who wants to put up a fight, not town who realized they were failing.

trying to read this game makes my soul weep. here are my reads so far

scum:
nhammen

leaning scum:
calcifer
EPM

WTF:
Battle Mage

leaning town:
DRK
Parama

town:
iamusername

will give some reasons later

Here's what's wrong with this. For starters, having trouble reading the game is no excuse, and is just worthless fluff to post. There's no point in saying that. It's something which I'd never accept as a reason for not giving good insight.

Battle Mage was right in the middle of his list--neutral. Guess who else was guilty of that? Yeah, BV. To finish this off, he fails to deliver the promised reasons. This looks quite bad for UT.

Calcifer is obv town

Scum are:
DemonHybrid
iamusername
evilpackman.

More details to come.

Oh, look! Like predecessor, like successor! Fails to deliver on the reasons! Shocker, that.

He was willing to (and did) hammer Evil, who he knew wasn't on his team (but was scum), the perfect gift for a scum who wants to look town.

Good job guys.

Classic tell, this. There was no need to congratulate the town for scumhunting well on Evil. Why say it at all? At best, it's fluff.

Question: Did you factor in the fact that I hammered the 2nd eastern mafia member? Of course he outed himself and hammering was pretty much the best move for me (town/scum). I'm just wondering if that factor'd in?

This is better translated as "Question: are you suspicious of me? Do you think I might be scum? Well, I shouldn't be that type of scum!"

That's horribad for me.

I like Parama's reads on the wagon. Which basically just dooms DemonHybrid.

Buddying to Parama.

Vote DemonHybrid with more analysis on the D1 wagon of werewolf555 to come.

Analysis, I might add, which Shark never follows through on...

bvoigt: Your votes on evilpacman13 when he was lynched had no reasoning to it, aside from bandwagoning. What exactly made evilpacman scummy and why did you make the first post about nhammen, yet completely abandon it both days.

This looks like valuable insight, but many had pointed this out before, if memory serves, bumping it to fluff.

Iamusername: you are similar to bviogt above. You post, but little content whatsoever about why you are voting someone, but of course you actually make your reason pretty clear though. You targetted two players who were the most inactive and your only other vote was evilpacman (the first RVS and the last a bandwagon vote). Explain why you went after the players who were "less active than necessary" and why the evilpacman vote late?

Same as above, Shark posts on a subject we had already talked about. This didn't really expand the issue more than it had already been explored previously, and therefore, fluff.

Empking; from past experience, this is how he plays >_<. Soooooo I leave it be atm.

Purposefully null. Why post this at all?

Calcifer: Nacho is the man. Also think he's town. (off chance of West, but SEVERLY doubt).

Setting up a possible vote for us in the future.

DemonHybrid: Well everyone's posted quite a bit about him, so Ill read through later and pick the best arguments, but from my reads earlier, I feel he's a good lynch today.

"Well, I'm going to pick a common suspect as my own because it won't look that bad, and will parrot their arguments, selecting only the best to get a mislynch!"

It was recently pointed out to me in a finished game how active players tend to get the most attention, and therefore tend to draw suspicion regardless of actual alignment, allowing scum to mostly coast. Demon is an active player, who I feel looks suspicious simply because of activity, and that there's no true reason to support a Demon lynch, that it's mega-weak.

Also, who is DeathRowKitty's associate?

Wants to out DRK's mason buddy. Bad play, considering we'd only gain one clear who'd quickly die, considering we have a dead doctor, and considering we were well on the way to lynching scum without this.

And if you happen to not be today's lynch (which you will probably be), what does that mean about Parama?

Is convinced that Demon is the lynch for the day. Also pries for options on Parama, and I think it was to further the scum's course of action towards Parama.

Hmm...nhammen, do you think that Battle Mage is the type of player to bus DH, because I am doubting the scenario that they are on separate teams. I agree that BM is totally setting up duos, but maybe we need to rethink DH scum.

"Hmm, maybe I can't get a lynch on Demon after all. But, hey, let's leave the vote on, just in case!"

I hammer 2 Eastern scum. GDI why cant i hammer western scum??? >_<

Because you ARE Western, Shark. Seriously, two hammers in a row. More than that, Shark's playerslot has had three votes this entire game.
-DemonHybrid (from UT the entire time)
-Hammer on Evil (knew it wasn't buddy)
-DemonHybrid again
and
-Hammer on Parama (made easy by Empking's claim and also not a buddy).

Shark's totally scum.

[Calcifer]

Working on nhammen ISO. Too dang long.

[Calcifer]

This logic seems to be a bit too much of a jump for me to believe.

This feels like it could be a possible setup for a future vote on this playerslot.

But whatever floats your boat. At least it looks like a Townie type of leap.

But this seems to contradict the above. Why mention it at all, then? Reads as fluff.

This makes me believe you are annoyed Town.

This feels like nhammen is trying to coach Evil a little.

This, however, draws other conclusions.

And this adds another contradiction. Why post two different conclusions about the same person in the same post? There's no point; he should've deleted the parts not relevant.

Why give a reason at all?

Nhammen:

Why NOT give a reason, though?

Although, this is a very small tell, so I'm more inclined towards Town right now.

And again, I ask why say it at all if he still feels town?
This feels like nhammen is setting up interest in an Evil lynch.

Consider my scumdar pinged, DemonHybrid.

"Consider the active player who is only suspicious due to their activity to be one of my suspects as well."

Wait. Voting based off of players that you have played with before is considered logical now?

Nhammen was missing the point, here, that Evil was putting too much detail into explaining his reasons so early--
Something which he himself had questioned Evil about earlier. Hypocritical.

I'm trying to decide between dumb town and scum with you DemonHybrid.

"You're dumb or you're scum." Bad reasoning.

I have a question for you, why do you consider rhetorical questions a scumtell?

Nhammen is generalizing. Demon disliked one particular rhetorical question. Nhammen took it to mean all rhetoric questions.

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

Nhammen:

Tell me, in this situation, I can see only two ways to reach this conclusion:
-You think that Nacho's confidence in THAT case is scummy,
or
-You think overconfidence is scummy in general.

If the former, please explain why and elaborate on that read. If the latter, I know you're lying scum, either that, or someone who in their massive amount of experience just really hasn't heard of tunnel visioning.

You seem to be hunting for excuses to vote, rather than hunting for scum!

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Funny, I got that same exact impression from YOU, nhammen.

In fact, you are just piggybacking off of other players' accusations against EPM

Funny, I got the same impression of nhammen on Demon.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

This post was more confusing than what he was replying to. Demon clearly thought nhammen was defending Evil. (I got that impression yesterday as well.) I think the second half, however, is implying that he says he still has an Evil suspicion, despite how it looks like the Chainsaw Defense.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit.

Alright, it's official, nhammen hates tunnel-visioners. Or somehow seriously thought both Nacho and Demon looked bad for being so confident.

Lots of assumptions here. But this part is just bad logic, not a scumtell.

Then why bring it up?

This bothers me too.

Does not elaborate.

But what bothers me even more, is that both of these posts carried absolutely no information whatsoever.

Soft Information instead of Analysis accusation, which he doesn't really explore much, doesn't push harder on.

Aaaaand, another post containing no real info. Well, other than setup speculation anyways. Have any comment on the game itself?

This is about as hard as nhammen ever pushes the people posting no content. It is virtually worthless.

Am I missing something? Where are the comments about the actual players in the game that you should be posting?

He follows this through eventually with a vote, but I don't think nhammen was pushing this subject hard enough, that he wasn't convinced any of them were actually scum. That he was using a commonly-accepted scumtell to give poor reasonings for his lynch vote.

Maybe you are just dumb Town. Hmmm... I still think you are scummy enough to hold my vote for now.

"Hmm, Demon might not be my best mislynch. But I'll hold on, just in case!"

On another note, this game is starting to make me quite annoyed. I should probably stop posting now, before I say something I will regret.

"I'm getting emotional, so I should stop posting before I slip."
I do it all the time as scum. This is exactly what he'd say as scum.

Your comment in this quote is very wrong. And it indicates uneasiness about nacho being on multiple Town lists, which is something that can be a very clear scumtell.

Furthers an Evil suspicion, but doesn't follow it through.

I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a Town list. You do not put someone on a Town list because the haven't done anything scummy. You put them on a Town list because they have done something clearly protown. EPM is telling Parama that nacho has not done anything clearly protown (which I disagree with), so he should not be on a Town list. Obviously some players disagree,and would definitely not like nacho to be lynched.

Fluff. There is no point in posting this.

And this type of response is NOT HELPING!

Again, he doesn't push hard enough.

1. Debatable (which is surprising; most accusations of OMGUS are clearly false). OMGUS is returning a vote only because the person voted you. He used an argument that he believed justified this vote. This argument is that your argument justifying your vote is horrible play. I agree with that assessment, but don't see it as a reason to vote. Equating bad play and scumminess is a pet peeve of mine. The possibility for debate arises because his argument is centered on the reason for your vote of him, so it could be seen as OMGUS.

This seems mostly like theory debate, and therefore mostly fluff.

2. What does that even mean? Well, I already asked, so I will assume that there is some answer later.

This, however, is. Why mention it more than once?

3. You cannot just say something is scummy. You say that both 1 and 2 are scummy, but do not justify this. Why are these things scumtells? Use that brain and THINK rather than mindlessly using some acronym to attack someone.

Funny, I got the feeling nhammen himself was doing this somewhat, too. And also the opposite, which is just as bad. And on top of all that, this is coaching and looks quite a lot like scum coaching.

Votes Ender, one of the lurkers in the game.

Also, my vote for ender was for the obvious reason of having posted no content so far.

There were many others who hadn't. Why single out ender, above all others?

In my opinion, bullying is a playstyle tell and not a scumtell.

Funny you mention that, nhammen, considering you docked some of Nacho's town points and became suspicious of Demon...
...For doing this exact thing. Hypocrite.

This sorta looks like someone sitting on the side and enjoying others fight.

Does not follow through. I think there might be a reason for this.

Because he is worried about the possibility of EPM being scum? Maybe. Or maybe because what you were doing did appear to be an attack? Multiple possibilities.

I'm kind-of curious why nhammen seems to be jumping to the defense of Guderian so much.

But the quote I am replying to shows you saying SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and THAT is what I am referring to. You can keep saying that B is what you believe, but that doesn't change the fact that you said A. Although, scum will rarely act the way you have, so...

Then why say it at all?

Fluff.

Except I really don't see how that meta shows what nacho suggests it shows.

No elaboration.

This is one thing I am wondering about. Why wont you vote Guderian today? I would think that logically, with the viewpoint you have, he would make a better vote than EPM.

Does not follow through.

Seeing a trend? He abandons a lot of what he works on, like he can't make up his mind who to attack, what reads to get, etc. In other words, feels like scum.

It is the same reason. What I'm pointing out is that there are FOUR players that have exhibited the same behavior, and yet, you are only going after one of them. Why?

Extremely hypocritical.

I can see that Ross has made a comment about not liking EPM or DH (with no reason), so that is at least a little bit, but I'm not considering it as valid until he gives reasons.

Guess which of the four nhammen is up against looks the best? Yeah, Ross. Guess who was Western scum? Yeah, Ross.

So you are essentially saying that bad play is equal to scummy play. I have stated before that this is a pet peeve of mine. Also, Day 1 is going to be speculation. That's how things happen. At least you have some comments here.

Fluff.

And what about my post don't you get? Because what I'm saying is that you completely misread his post. That is NOT what EPM was saying, and if you looked at his post in context, you would have realized this. What he was saying is that he wanted Parama to take nacho off of his (Parama's) Town list, because while he(nacho) hadn't done anything scummy, he(nacho) hasn't done anything townie either (in EPM's opinion). And your reply says that if he hasn't done anything Townie, then he shouldn't be on a town list, which is EXACTLY what EPM was saying. Please try understanding a conversation before replying to it.

Scum coaching. If not, then fluff.

Interesting. I isoed nacho, and in his iso #6, you clearly see an example of this. I shall join you on the nacho train.
VOTE: nacho

I later pointed out just how horrible the logic of this debate was, and nhammen--for following through with it--looks quite bad.

Although, I must say I have one problem with this thought concerning nacho, but I will wait until he responds to this new accusation before posting that problem.

I don't think he ever explained this.

Except, heres the thing: what if you are wrong? I see that as a valid reason to get a bit concerned, but you say that since it would happen tomorrow, it doesn't matter, which is complete nonsense. It does still matter. You have said that is what your plan is multiple times. So why should he ignore it now, if you plan to go through with it later? I do not understand that comment of yours, that he has no reason to freak out because it wouldn't happen today. Complete nonsense.

More coaching.

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time. Very definitely sheeping. In fact, I might make Ross my next vote.

Never follows through with this. I wonder why?

Wait, who? I actually had to go back and look at the playerlist. This player hasn't posted at all.
@mod, could we have a prod on 4comp?

Fluff, considering my point asked for much the same.

I agree with Calcifer that Werewolf's behavior so far does look slightly scummy. Also, this post of werewolf's was followed by... nothing. So essentially he said that he was perfectly willing to stop doing what he was being suspected for but never actually stopped. Or rather started, lol!

But does not vote for anyone. Looks particularly bad, when he voted ender for what I felt were poorer reasons than this.

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game.

I have yet to see evidence of nhammen using these connections. Also, he should have a clear scumspect by this point.

I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.

Has failed to do this, too.

I really don't see any sort of new insight coming from Ross. I think he was just jumping on the easy bandwagon, or rather BOTH easy bandwagons.

Funny, considering 1: nhammen never follows through on this, and 2: is himself guilty, although he did retract later on.

I hadn't noticed this at the time, but you are quite right. Point against DH here.

Which he fails to follow through on.

This is far too demanding. Also, are contradictions necessarily scummy? And how can you honestly say that contradictions from a hydra are scummy?

Coaching or fluff. Take your pick.

I'm getting kinda tired of tyler now too. I will admit that when I accused DH of targeting tyler specifically, I was wrong to do so, because there was nothing wrong with DH's attack. He just saw something before I realized how serious it was.

And yet, does not follow through with a tyler vote, either!

But, if you would like to know why I voted ender, it is because he had posted the least amount of content out of the people that I had noticed with that problem.

I don't think anyone asked this of nhammen before now.

nham:

explain why ender gave the least in your mind.

Same here. Plus, in a multiscum game, expect to see no fake hunting until one faction has been destroyed, so this is actually really bad reasoning coming from chkflip.

Fluff.
Also seems like nhammen is doing a small amount of buddying to my playerslot.

Just because they didnt agree with the logic presented doesn't make them scum.

Fluff.

Those were some very fast 4 votes. However, at only 4 votes, I don't mind too much.

4 votes is 4/9 needed for a lynch. And he doesn't mind?!? Yeah, that's quite bad.

Agree completely. Bandwagoning, and his "top suspect" is a lurker? Although, then maybe I'm guilty of seeing fake hunting in multiscum.

He had acknowledged multiscum before. And that makes this look quite bad to me.

I changed my mind.
VOTE: werewolf555

You decide to suddenly pop in as soon as a wagon on you appears, as if by magic. And the best you can do is complain about the wagon on you? No! Content! NOW!

Coaching, and his first real vote for quite some time, seemingly based on frustration instead of actual suspicion.

yay! content! And yes, I agree. But someone already said that. Which person on the wagon do you find to be the most likely to be scum?

Coaching.

Umm.... OK.

Fluff.

Very true.

Fluff.

Well, knowing Parama's playstyle, I will never hear the end of his theory now. Yay?

Fluff.

Sigh. You discussed that game, and then linked to it. Very modkillable. Bye bye!

Oh, look, an entire post filled with nothing but FLUFF! More than that, this looks like too much of a carefree attitude coming from a town player. It's like he doesn't care what Wererwolf's alignment is--something only scum would do.

How exactly could I make a counter-argument for crazy? I really don't see any way to do it.

"I can't defend against this." An excuse. And then he tries, anyway.

I'll try to appease you, but I know you wont accept it.

It was pointed out in a game I just finished (nham was in it as well) that this kind of sentence is EXTREMELY scummy.

Interesting case. I've done the same thing when I was scum, so I can believe this. Although, did she actually give a reason? When I was scum I tried to convince the rest of the town that the link was there.

"Hmm, this might be grounds to get an easy vote on Evil! But, I need to make sure..."

Yeah, I have to agree; tyler has been pretty scummy.

Focusing on a lurker.

Interesting. So you both say that Calcifer may be right about pacman, but then go and vote an active lurker. How many scum are in this game again?

This definitely leaves possible nhammen connections to BV and iamausername.

I agree with this too. And I hadn't noticed this until iamausername's comment. Unfortunately, positive scumhunting is not as much of an alignment tell in multiscum.

This is fluff.

Actually...come to think of it, nhammen acknowledges that scumhunting in multiscum is not much of an alignment tell. It should work the opposite way around--people not doing scumhunting in multiscum shouldn't be much of an alignment tell.
Yet nhammen has been hounding the lurkers for the entire game, at that point.

Quite hypocritical.

OK, tell me exactly what role could mean, if we know that Guderian is not mafia. I can't think of very much, and definitely no reason to stall.

Fluff.

After this comment I decided to iso Parama as well. He actually does mention EPM suspicions as sheeping of other players' EPM suspicions. And his confirm vote could also be seen as part of a case. So, (A) Parama hasn't made very many cases, but (B) of the few cases he has made, EPM is one of them. And (C) Parama's case against me was that I was bussing werewolf, who is Town. And you just said that you liked the case against me, after having seen werewolf's flip. So, I'd like to know what you liked about it. In fact, Parama says to get EPM if werewolf is town. So, did you actually read that iso? Because it seems like you didn't.

Reads a lot like, "stop. bussing. me!"

Although, thank you for drawing attention to Parama's very light iso. Not that I have room to speak.

Fluff.

That was partially a joke (about how many scumreads could come from those two posts), and partially a reminder to myself about some odd behavior. Odd that you took it seriously in context, but not a comment about alignment.

Fluff. If this was any indicator of an interest in iamausername, he never followed through, so it can't be content.

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Bussing, big time, it looks like. Says the case is good, and then goes into a lot of fluff about theory discussion. Doesn't elaborate on a UT case at all.

I was considering voting you right there, but I typed a ... instead.

No further elaboration on this.

So that is two out of... how many? I'd say that if you did a mathematical analysis of your page 3 and earlier reads, you would see them being just slightly better than random.

Fluff.

I love it when replacements arrive and put things in new context. I now agree about bvoigt being scummy. Still want a response from Untrod though. For the record, DRK's entrance was extremely town.

1: BV AND UT distancing, 2: DRK was the Western Mafia kill, and nhammen thought DRK was extremely town.

@DRK 436: DGB's "experiment" does make DH look a little worse, but not by much. It is more likely that DGB was trying to get a reaction out of someone that is easy to get a reaction out of. Also, something else you point out, but did not notice yourself, is that DGB also tried to create scumlinks between EPM and DH. That's two players that DGB has tried to link to pacman.

Considering he failed to follow through, fluff.

I wish I could vote for all four of Untrod, and Parama, and EPM, and tyler! And you know, let's add bvoigt in there too!

One of those names is scum, almost for certain.

And would this change any connections he had with others? What info do you hope to get from any role.

Fluff.

Well, GIVE AN EXAMPLE.

More fluff.

Seeing as how Calcifer was right about EPM, I am adding major scumpoints to both players that said that Calcifer was on to something, and then voted for a lurker. However, a four person scumteam is highly improbable in a game this size, so I'm going to guess only one of them is scum. At this point in time, I suspect it to be bvoigt.

And he never follows through!

This looks like honest analysis. This doesn't mesh with my bvoigt=Eastern suspicions. Will require thought.

Which we never get.
Also, why not Western?

Holy crap! Shark's reply to bvoigt looks pretty bad. Hey, did you make sure to notice that I hammered my buddy for towncred? Did ya? Then again, I don't imagine any scum player being this overt. They tend to be much more subtle than that. So, for now, this shall only be considered bad play and not scum play.

Fluff.

I am curious as to what brought out this particular question.

Fluff.

OK, I'd like to know this as well.

More fluff.

Sigh. Two scumteams. Fake hunting doesn't happen, until one team is eliminated. Unless it is drawing fake connections between a partner and another non-partner player apparently, lol.

I got the distinct impression from the coaching nature of this post that nhammen believed Demon to be town. If it wasn't coaching, it was fluff. And also, it is hypocritical.

A) You acknowledge that it was sheeping. Why weren't you trying to find out your own cases instead of following others? B) Why didn't you give these reasons along with that vote?

Never follows through with bv. Yeah, thinking there's a reason for that.

The only reason for any mason to claim soon is if there is a realistic possibility they will be killed, and then scum come forward claiming to be a third member of what is actually a 2 member mason group. In other words, if the mason is a likely night kill, and that mason is the only member of the group left.

Fluff.

His vote on Demon is terrible.

Although, I can sort of agree with his Parama case, because I kinda saw the attacks from Battle Mage on Parama as bussing before Calcifer mentioned it.

1: didn't mention this before, and 2: expresses suspicion of Parama when Parama was an easy lynch.

Whoa whoa whoa! Why do you come straight to that conclusion? Are you Eastern? Wait. That would mean that A) the cop claim is false and B) you are on a different team than Emp. This doesn't make sense for a few reasons.

Parama's response to Calcifer's tunneling is good. Although, with the cop claim, both players involved would be scum.

Fluff.

Nhammen looks really, REALLY bad.

[Calcifer]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/47iQSpYCXQBe

If there was a "Best Performance in a Losing Cause" Award still, I would nom Empking for it.
Otherwise, I just wish we would've listened to iam earlier

[Calcifer]

Thanks bvoigt!

And no I wasn't DRK >.>
My heart was with the town the whole time...