1116 - Literally Anything uPick

[Ghostlin]

VOTE: CES

For bandwagonning Zang for not bandwaggoning.

[Ghostlin]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

[Ghostlin]

Does it necessarily, Ghost? What do you think of CES now?

I think he cares too much about people not wagonning, which concerns me because we've got zero information to build cases on. What do we expect people to defend their behavior with?

[Ghostlin]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

I consider the point of view you propound to be antithetical to the town's interests. The RVS holds very little value if we intentionally take it less seriously or restrict what's allowed go in there. And bandwagonning is nearly always pro-town.

I actually dislike RVS and RQS: things that shouldn't normally be allowed at any part of the game, like building up large wagons without allowing players to really have a coherent defense without providing us analysis or information are allowed to be the norm. Yes, the town's best weapon is in it's lynch, but it's informed lynches that the town wins in, not creating large random bandwagons with practically no information. I think you expect someone to crack with early pressure, but most good players are aware a RVS is that...an RVS.

We're waiting for someone to stir the pot. To say the one thing that gets us interested and votes flowing; and I concede that's important, but I dislike using my most powerful weapon to vote someone that I don't honestly believe is scum for the sake of getting there. I recognize there's probably no better way to do it, but it doesn't mean it has to be my favorite part of the game.

[Ghostlin]

I'm not even sure we're not arguing differences in game play here: I feel that creating random wagons without at least a little information encourages sheeping, which is not a protown behavior, which could encourage the quick lynch. I think this necessarily should be avoided whenever possible: "Why'd you vote that?" "Well, everyone else was doing it and we were supposed to be wagoning."

Forcing reasons, in my humble point of view, forces scum to talk. And think. I don't believe in inertia for the sake of inertia, is what I guess I'm saying. Yes, an early wagon gets folks talking; but I wouldn't support it beyond this phase of the game.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: On apathy: Yes, the RVS stage is a place to be random and silly, which can get many folks into the game. There are other folks who want to sit down, give analysis on what people have said pursuant to finding scum. For folks who don't mind the social interaction and being witty and just using it as an icebreaker before we get into the serious part, it's a fun part of the game. For folks who like to analyze bandwagons, what folks said about who's currently the scum favorite and figure out crap logic, it can be a tedious part of the game, due to the attitude that nothing really can be taken seriously that's been in affected in most games. ("Well...that doesn't count. That's RVS.")

[Ghostlin]

Woah, woah, woah... Are you really concerned about someone being quicklynched this early in the game?

I'm concerned anytime there's a possibility that scum might deny town information. Am I that concerned about it? Well, we are only on page 3, and I've seen wagons build to L-1 by page 5 or 6. Bandwagonning might be protown, but quick lynching isn't.

So you're waiting for someone to just say something scummy... But don't want to pressure anybody into doing anything? There are a few problems with this: First of all, if you're just planning on waiting for someone to slip up, no one ever will. What do you expect to happen? Someone to announce that they're town? Pressure and early discussion is one of the best ways to kick up scumhunting early on and to get town out of the RVS. By just sitting there and waiting for other people to slip up on their own, you're just unnecessarily lengthening the RVS.

Actually, it depends on my mood, what I've done on the RVS. I have just asked people questions and refused to vote before, but I find people find you suspicious because you're not voting. I've placed random votes and started conversations back and forth like me and CES about topics relevant to town's interests, but apparently people find you suspicious because you have a different opinion about the entire process. The only thing I've never literally done is keep my mouth shut and watch the process unfold, which is antithetical to my personal bible of how to do this. Considering I've drawn three votes on your premise that I'm extending RVS (which is funny, because CES and I aren't really talking about random shot or votes anymore) by having the conversation, let me turn the tables on you for a minute:

what's the concrete reason you're voting me, who's giving you a reason for how he thinks, although you think I'm wrong, a better candidate then Leo, who is doing pantomime, or many of the other posters that haven't posted yet and are lurking?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: I actually don't think CES is scum right now; his reasoning, while I don't agree with 100%, doesn't seem scummy to me.

unvote

[Ghostlin]

Leo's vote is thrown far too easily, considering there are already several other votes on Ghost, even more so since there is no reason given, and even more so than that seeing as how it's no longer RVS.

Unvote
Vote: Leo

Throws votes around too easily? There are some other votes on Leo amirite? Let's call this an I-hate-when-people-argue-points-based-on-whether-they-think-we're-still-i-the-RVS. Mister.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zodiark

Are you more or less qualified to determine if we're in RVS or not? I ask this question, because yes, it does seem like Zodiark's wagoning because he didn't like Leo wagoning me for no reason, and if you didn't like his reasoning that's fine. It is a touch hypocritical, I'll agree.

What I dislike is the general tone that Zodiark isn't capable to determine the end of RVS (for them, really) or not, and make a vote that seems serious to them at this point.

The rest of town has stopped making random votes and started making votes with reasons, whether it be on suspicious play, play style, or anything else. Particularly when Doom posted something like this:

It's srs-ness time everybody!

That sounded like a vote that was based on whether or not we were in RVS or that town should get serious when we're not. Where were you then?

[Ghostlin]

The reason Plum gives for her vote is odd. As far as I can see, Zodiark's concern does have some legitimacy (and has since been answered afaict). Ghost spotted where the real concern should have lain - in the hypocrisy of accusing someone of throwing votes around too easily and then plumping a vote on Leo. Plum mentioned this in passing, but she moved on to a more theoretical reason about RVS-or-not to finally justify the vote. It feels a little off. /pokes Plum with a stick

Vote: Plum

I quoted this because I agree with it so much.

That's my dislike of the Plum vote. It's not that I'm a huge fan of the Leo wagon, but it makes sense to put pressure there when someone's doing something odd. Plum had a legitimate case: the Zodiark vote was a bit hypocritical when you consider accusing someone throwing votes on someone and then joining the biggest wagon.

However, to vote on the basis that we're not out of RVS and placing a 'serious vote' during RVS is somewhat taboo, particularly when other players have done it, seems like a stalling tactic to me. Who decides when we're out of RVS? Probably each individual player in turn. I could understand if it was whipping into scum team go, over there, but L-3 is far from, and if we got three votes in a row immediatedly on Leo, it'd be an easy conclusion to make.

I should of done this on my last post, but I will do it now.

VOTE: Plum

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin, what changed between your first post directed at me after my Zodiark vote and the one right after AV's vote on me? In which you quoted him and then voted me? I didn't post between those two posts and you expressed pretty similar views about my behavior in both. So what was new?

Nothing changed, I wanted to get you to talk, defend yourself and apply pressure. It occured to me if I was going to level that accusation, I might as well have the vote to back it up, seeing that's it's Day 1. That's not being critical, I should of done it to

anyone

that I accused point blank of hypocracy. Like I said, Plum, it's not really the fact you voted Zodiark due to reasons of hypocracy, I wasn't wild with you declaring seemingly arbitarly that we weren't out of RVS.

I don't dislike your reasoning now, it was just incomplete when I read it, and the emphasis was different than when you just first posted the vote on Zodiark. Personally, I don't find the accusations against Leo to be all that horrible, it certainly has us all talking about it.

Unvote

The case against Plum sucks.

Dayprotect: Plum

Huh. She had two votes tops on her, and you felt a Dayprotect was in order? That's a little kneejerk and almost like you wanted to stifle commentary on that wagon.

Why? I can't say I find this scummy, just overeactionary.

[Ghostlin]

VOTE: AurousVox lemony makes me eat my face...

Would you like to join us in this game, AntB? This is the only post you've made so far. Let's dash some water in your face.

Vote: AntB

[Ghostlin]

I've been turning this over in my head for the last several days, and the conclusion I've come up with is this. This isn't something town would say. For town, their vote is all they have, short of town aligned PR's. The only reason town has to not place their vote is if they feel someone is more scummy, or they person in question is either at L-1, or in danger of being otherwise quickhammered. As of the time of Powers vote, Leo was at L-3, and, as one can plainly see, Leo is his highest scumread, so neither of the above limit him so. I read his post and I see: "I feel Leo is worthy of suspicion, but don't want to be seen as responsible when/if Leo flips town". Only scum, or a noob townie, would think as such.

Therefore;

Unvote
Vote:Powerrox93

So... Should I call everyone that has made a few bad posts scum?

Well, if you could phrase it and make it effective plus apply pressure somehow, you'd be doing a little thing we call in the business called 'scum hunting'.

[Ghostlin]

Unvote

Vote: Powerrox93

I can only agree with my fellow town mates that not only is PR not scum hunting, his defense post was lame and designed to stop the rest of us from scumhunting. I'm removing my vote from Ant because now he actually is participating somewhat; and yeah, lurking to the point of prod < scummy defense that goes in essence 'well, are you going to vote anyone else suspicious?'

[Ghostlin]

Guys, I think Leo can't talk. What I mean is, he has to express anything through actions, much like a mime. That doesn't make him protown, it just makes his role with an odd flavor. It also changes nothing, so I recommend we stop fishing.

[Ghostlin]

First, to clear my RVS vote UNVOTE:

He is voting you for having Leo as a scummy read but no voting for him.

But what if a read isn't scummy enough in order to be worthy a vote?

Why wouldn't you apply pressure to have people explain themselves? You can -demand- clarification. And the best way to demand anything is to show someone you're willing to lynch them if the answer isn't what you expect. For town, voting is the most powerful weapon town has.

[Ghostlin]

But what if a read isn't scummy enough in order to be worthy a vote?

I agree with you, I was just pointing out his case so you could respond.

For town, voting is the most powerful weapon town has.

Voting is our greatest weapon which is why it should be used cautiously.


Also,

Unvote

The first seems like you're coaching. Why would you need to point out the case in the first place?

Accusations and votes are only effective if you back up. Why did you unvote the person who's not scumhunting?

[Ghostlin]

Actually Zodiark, you've just shown that Power's Leo scumread was based on more than just "one bad post" so I don't get why he's been using that as an excuse all this time.

Because he doesn't want to look like he's supporting a Leo lynch when he acutally is. Thing is, there is no such thing as agnostics in the game of mafia; and town members that vote have nothing really to be afraid of, outside of lylo. We know ourselves that we're innocent, so we have nothing to hide.

[Ghostlin]

In bed, probably

I still stand by my reasons for Powerrox93. He panicked in response to Zodiark13's vote and didn't really scumhunt until I asked him for his top read. Rereading his last post, it reads as if he's afraid to vote Cogito Ergo Sum because he's worried he'll be called out for not having an elaborate case on him. Are we looking for elaborate cases? No, but we

ARE

looking for strong cases.

It's Day 1: I'll take not lame, not OMGUS and loaded with WIFOM cases. Anything that's reasonable should be trotted out and examined at this point. It'd be great if we could get great cases now, but reasonable accusation and defense is important now; which is where voting for suspects really comes in.

Zang, what do you seriously think about PR's play now?

[Ghostlin]

Do you think Zang was bussing with his vote? It's interesting that he's unvoted as the wagon gathers speed.

Of course I unvoted. It was a random vote, the wagon was gaining speed and I never thought that he was scummy.

Eh, I had wanted Ghostlin to answer this first. Just so you know, I'll respond to what you've said afterwards if you want. So, Ghosty, plz to answer thx.

AV: I found it MORE interesting, considering everything PR's done/not done that he didn't just keep his vote (or unvoted and revoted in the same post) and just explained the reasoning. I find the Powerrox wagon to be kinda obvious: he's not really scumhunting at all, says he likes CES for scum and doesn't vote him. CES has no votes (or very few) on him: a lynch would be totally unlikely. I'm not saying he should blindly bandwagon, but Zang has enough ammo to turn a RVS into something, or even to vote someone else. Instead, we get a reasonably uncommittal response from him. That's not helpful, and it's not protown: scum has more reason to be watching and waiting at this point.

[Ghostlin]

Do you think Zang was bussing?

Possibly, but with RVS it's really hard to tell if he's bussing or not.

[Ghostlin]

I'm asking because if you think both of them are scum(my) I assume you'd think Zang was bussing.

Yes, I acutally do, and I guess I would think that. They both show the same propensity for active lurking and not voting their suspicions, even though they have cases for both of them. I'm not sure I find them both equally scummy, since Powerrox has been more blantant about it, but Zang's worth watching.

[Ghostlin]

Leo looks very pleased to have discovered already that Plum is StrangerCoug's scumbuddy.

What's the link? I don't get how Plum is SC's scumbuddy.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: To be clear, I haven't seen anything to affirm whether or not SC or Plum are scum; I just want to know Leo's assertion.

[Ghostlin]

Guys, I think we've either got a double voter or someone who can vote anonymously in the game, or

Mod, I think you're got the total number to lynch Chrono wrong.

Not to say I'm not interested in Leo's trap, but it's just something I just noted in the last vote count.

[Ghostlin]

I don't buy the

Second half

of the trap.

Anyone that had a question directed at them such as "Can I ask you a question?" might reply with "what?"

Leo looks at Chronopie and Aurorus with mild annoyance for leaving Powerrox at L-1 and making it risky to wait for more than a single post each of reactions from Stranger and Plum before someone hammered.

I doubt Plum or SC will hammer at all now; even if they are town, for it will confirm your 'trap', or be used against them on later days.

Seriously, anyone quick hammering Powerrox without town permission is a damned fool. It probably won't happen.

Plum, I'm not sure the onus of asking the question. I'm sure if he wasn't town and was a scum redirector, he would tell you he was town.

[Ghostlin]

Leo: let me ask you this: do you see it possible in any way that Plum could be scum, but SC couldn't? Or vice versa through your trap?

CES: You seemed convinced a few days ago that Plum wasn't scum when we interrogated her at L-5; enough to day protect her, which sorta killed any scrunity. How do you feel about her now? Do you think she might be scum?

[Ghostlin]

If Plum's scum, then I can see Leo being cleared, but they're on opposite alignments, I can tell you that.

This is cruddy logic. Unless you're positive which alignments they're on. I like the Powerrox, Plum, and SC lynches, but right now, I'm like SC for this post most of all: this seems like a scum misdirect to setup lynches on a presumption that isn't true: If Plum's town, Leo MUST be scum. They could both be town, or Leo found a way to bus a scumpartner while misdirecting from another. (Much less likely.) This is just bad juju.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: This shouldn't be needed, but if it is, I meant,

unvote

;

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Ghostlin]

Guys, use some logic here before we end up with more than the mislynches we could expect from this:

If Plum flips Town, it doesn't mean Leo is Scum. It also doesn't mean SC is Town.
If SC flips Town, it doesn't mean Leo is Scum. It also doesn't mean Plum is Town.
If Leo flips Town, it doesn't mean SC or Plum are Scum.
If SC flips Scum, we cannot confirm if Plum is Scum or not by that alone, and it only makes Leo

MORE LIKELY

to be Town.
If Plum flips Scum, we cannot confirm if SC is Scum or not by that alone, and it only makes Leo

MORE LIKELY

to be Town.

Please, look at all three of their play. Take the trap for what you will, it was a gutsy gambit, but don't walk into the crap logic trap before we have three dead bodies. Thank you.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: 'three dead bodies'='three dead town bodies.'

Also, I will start voting for people who continue to use this logic as a basis for arguments. Autobahns are not evil.

[Ghostlin]

Zang has been prodded.

Question to the players: Are the prod mechanics too strict?

Not really...we're nearing half way though D1, and he's not posted for about 60 hours.

[Ghostlin]

Welcome to the game, Batt.

Not good play doesn't equal scum-motivated. I'm not saying my reaction was necessarily what you would have done - or for that matter the optimal use of the apparent information. You've stated why you think it's bad play as Town - fair enough, I suppose, but I'd like to know whether you think Plumscum is conclusive and, either way, why.

I'm not sure that's a good defense: Both Town and Scum do really stupid things. This defense kind of reads "I made a poor play, and poor play doesn't make one scum." Which is true, but if we don't vote for inconsistencies and the like, then we're just randomly voting for scum. It's an argument against scumhunting.

That's why I've always hated the case that 'he's a VI, it's not worth voting for him.' If the player is protown, we want them to continue in this game. If he's anti-town, we don't really want him to be a dead weight, and if he's scum playing a VI, well, we want to catch scum, don't we?

[Ghostlin]

Time for a =======[].

I'd rather give town some time to process it, considering we're more thna 4 days from deadline. Why are you so eager?

[Ghostlin]

CES - No, actually, it isn't. It

is

time for people to evaluate my claim, for Chrono and AntB and Zodiark

at least

to respond to me and Batt to comment on the game. You too, for that matter (at least re: my claim. Seriously). And afterwards we will attempt to lynch someone who may be actual scum.

Or, if unconvinced, someone not on your wagon will hammer you. I'll do it myself, but not until deadline is closer than this.

[Ghostlin]

I admit that some of my thoughts on an ideal situation seeped into my statements there, but considering it was a response to CES's statements I didn't feel it inappropriate. That said, if you are unconvinced by my arguments, what stake do you have in not hammering me now? Out of curiosity.

CES - Frankly I think it does have bearing on my alignment from an objective point of view, which you are not even considering - well.

I didn't say I didn't believe you quite so much. Let me put it this way. You are in fact, on my scumlist, but I don't think you're a better lynch than others in this town. I don't believe you're even better than Powerrox or SC today. PR's play has been pretty bad, and SC seems a bit opportunist at the moment.

I will not let town no lynch, however.

I do not find hammering quickly after the claim to be protown, either. Regardless what CES says.

As for your claim: could be assigned to anyone, couldn't it? It doesn't track.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghostlin: I agree that Powerrox is probably a bit scummier than Plum (esp. with his rolefishing of CES), but Plum's lynch gives us more information, however WIFOMladen it may turn out to be.

RE: hammering/waiting - probably best to give Batt a certain amount of time (I'd say, a day?) to get his reads out before we lynch. We can gather some more reactions to the claim while we wait.

AV; I don't disagree with that or anything you said. Tell you all what:

I will cast the hammer tomorrow night, Feburary 16th from 8-10 PM MTN

(I have some things to do tomorrow, being a day off work) if the game state does not change. That's about 27-29 hours from now, plenty of time for Batt to post his case and see if others think the case is worth it.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Or rather, any defense Plum might have is worth it. Everyone, please weigh in.

[Ghostlin]

UNVOTE: Plum

While I understand the claim is plausible, and that role != alignment, the a line in the wiki article caught my eye.

After the failure of the revolt, the rabbinical writers referred to bar Kokhba as "Simon bar Kozeba" (Hebrew: בר כוזיבא‎, "Son of lies" or "Son of deception").

I will place my Vote back on to avoid a no lynch however.

Wait, wait? That sounds like you're not convinced Plum's not scum due to flavor. I'm confused.

[Ghostlin]

Yeah Chrono is looking increasingly bad. But is he hopping off a buddy's wagon or hopping off a mislynch? :\

Let's look at this logically: if he's hopping off a buddy's wagon, we lynch him NOW, if a vig is availble, they can vig Plum tonight, we catch two scum. (Plum and Chronopie)

If he's hopping off a mislynch for WIFOM and he is scum and we lynch him; if a vig is availble, they can vig Plum tonight, net would be one town (Plum), one scum. (Chronopie)

If he's just being stupid town, we'll get two dead townies. Or one town (Chrono) and one scum (Plum).

Out of three of those four possibility, we might catch a scum. Either way, I feel this particular play is entirely too scummy to miss, considering no one else on the wagon was convinced, and Chrono's play has been pretty awful. A no vote just heightens the chances for no lynch. This is sorta the thing that made me glad I waited to hammer?

unvote

Vote: Chronopie

[Ghostlin]

Let's look at this logically: if he's hopping off a buddy's wagon, we lynch him NOW, if a vig is availble, they can vig Plum tonight, we catch two scum. (Plum and Chronopie)

Why does the order Plum and Chronopie die matter in this case?

It doesn't. We could lynch Plum and vig Chronopie. However, hopping off a wagon for no reason cited except 'I beleive her claim', is slightly more scummy than Plum. We could lynch Plum for the same effect, it doesn't matter, but really, Chrono's is the worse play.

Vote jumping this close to end of day in my book is worse than falling for a trap.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Also, SC, my vote wasn't on Plum, so net loss, net gain wise it's essentally the same right now. Plum just got ratchted back to L-2 by Chrono in an important phase of the Plum wagon for seemingly no reason.

[Ghostlin]

I don't buy the

Second half

of the trap.

Anyone that had a question directed at them such as "Can I ask you a question?" might reply with "what?"

But

Unvote: PR, Vote: Plum

The first half I do see as a slip.

If Plum is town, We Lynch Leo tomorrow.

It was you.

I had to write practically a book explaining why this is crap logic and you started it. I had to explain that just because a 'trap' was set up that all three alignments haven't been set in stone. You've been trying to help direct mislynches not today, but possible mislynches for the next three days (two if there's a Vig).

I'm not saying this clears anyone, but guys, this is an example of scumtardity at it's finest.

Do the protown thing. Vote Chrono.

[Ghostlin]

Mod: I have my vote on Chronopie, not Chronopie, as amusing as that seems.

[Ghostlin]

Ve're trying to see vhat happens next, comrades. Vhich ever vay you vant to shake this up; I feel zat ve should

Vote: Chronopie

For his actions against the revolution, da. Plum's lynch so he could shov off his povers to town after he said he didn't suspect her was scummy, da?

[Ghostlin]

EbWOP: the=ze

[Ghostlin]

Ze case against scum comrade Chronopie:

1) Ze voting trick ended all debate for lynch on now innocent Comrade Plum.
2) Right before ze voting trick, Chronopie said he believed Plum. Zen he did ze voting trick.
3) Nozing about Day 1 that Plum said vas untrue, nor has Chronopie offered any explanation for it.
4) Any argument against Chronopie's actions dissolves into VIFOM.

[Ghostlin]

Transilvanian?

But anyvay, I felt zat ve needed to have more discussion on Plum's claim, thus unvoted, vhilst believing her still to be the most likely scum candidate. Vhen it appeared zat people misconstrued my actions, I decided to take matters into my ovn hands.

So in essence, you lynched Plum to save yourself. Good to knov.

Comrades, zis is not protovn zinking.

[Ghostlin]

Comments on vhat I've missed my comrade's, alzough it's to late to do anyzing nov:
I believe plum's claim
Chronpie's hammer vas bad, hovever I need to do a furzer re-read before doing anyzing

I believe Plum's claim too! *Smacks a 'Vig Me' sign on PR's back* Really comrade, really?!

Zis is the stupidest non-post I've ever read.

Battousai, how can you NOT get scum vibes off this guy?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: 2 this=vis, and how=hov.

[Ghostlin]

Zere is no need for pover to out vhat he did last night at zis point. Roles zat get a report already know that zey vere svitched, vhile most ozer roles don't need to knov zat zey vere svitched.

Doom: Acutally, I zink Leo's onto somezing. Let Leo insist on Powerrox telling us who switched vat.

[Ghostlin]

Battousai: His "I'm not going to vote anyone due to a to single bad post" is designed as an excuse not to scum hunt, particularly in ze early game, comrade. Particularly since he accuses Leo, von't vote him for 'one bad post' and then cites three posts he didn't like. (Yes, he said a fev bad posts, zen says single later on.) Thing is, if no one voted due to a few bad posts, ve wouldn't be able to start scum hunting.

He later mentions CES as likely scum, and doesn't vote him. In fact, no vote vas placed Day 1.

His contributions so far have been designed to look like he's doing something vhile doing as little possible by vay of scumhunting, openly contradicting himself, and "I believe Plum's claim". Vhich is groanworthy and doesn't help us at all.

[Ghostlin]

Vhy is it vrong to comment stuff zat happened during ze time I vas v/la?

I vill do as comrade batt said, i vill only hint on vho i svitched, and zat is zat I've mentioned at least one of zem in my posts

It's not vrong to comment on stuff zat happened vhile you were on V/LA. However, observations like you believed Plum's claim do not help us at all, comrade. It'd be like me saying "vell, ve didn't lynch scum yesterday..zat's bad, because is it is one less mislynch tovn has." It's an attempt to look like you're doing somezing vithout in fact doing anyzing.

[Ghostlin]

Today's Lynchable:

PR, Chronopie, AntB.

Ant B has been doing similar to another game I played with him, and he flipped scum. Essentally, Leo's got the idea: designed to do something while in fact, doing absolutely nothing.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Vell, crap, the entire post restriction slipped my mind.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Comrade.

[Ghostlin]

[quote="Pover]Vhy is it vrong to comment stuff zat happened during ze time I vas v/la?

Zere is no need to, comrade. By saying zat you believe Plum's role you're only stating ze obvious vhile at ze same time looking like you're trying to gain tovn-points...vhich is scummy. Commenting is fine as long as its not repeating vhat vas said.

Ant B has been doing similar to another game I played with him, and he flipped scum.

So vhat? Have you ever seen a game vhere he played as tovn? If you haven't or have and he plays ze same, zis point is null (I'd check but TBH I really don't care)

Vhile I agree zat Ant is looking anti-tovn, it just reads to me as more nevbie-play zan scummy play. Besides, I vant to hear from chrono before I change my vote to anyone else.[/quote]

No comrade, and it indeed may be a null. Vat's not the point: ze point is he's being anti-tovn nov and vat seems to indicate to me noving good.

[Ghostlin]

Vat's not the point: ze point is he's being anti-tovn nov and vat seems to indicate to me noving good.

I understand zat, comrade. Vhat I was trying to get at is zat I vould razer lynch someone vho I zink is scum razer zan someone vho is just anti-tovn. Lynching someone for playing anti-tovn is a policy lynch and if ve vanted to do one of zose, ve should have done it yesterday.

No comrade, and it indeed may be a null.

If zis is ze case, vhy did you feel ze need to point out zat he does zis vhen he's scum?

First off, comrade, I zink active lurking is scummy. So often you end up vith ze quiet ones, and scum love to hide and not contribute, so I don't see a huge difference in behavior here. Anyzing that might help, or at least get attention dravn on anyone vho might not vant it vhen people go to check things like meta, or to get zem to go check zings like meta is vorz it.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghost- I zink zat zis is just a difference of opinions. I personally don't zink zat active lurking alone is enough to varrant a lynch unless it vas a policy lynch and zere vas no one else zat vas scummy enough to be a better candidate. Ah vell.

ftr: check my Sig.

Zis is it? You've been posting content in your ozer games but ignore zis one? You have some questions you need to ansver and even if you are Semi-V/LA, you should still be posting in zis zread if you are able to be posting in ozer ones.

Ending the day out of self interest and quicklynching vizout the blessings of tovn is much more scummy than active lurking, Comrade, which is vhy my vote is on Comrade Chronopie, but I do feel Comrade Ant B needs a furzer look as vell.

[Ghostlin]

Not Voting: AntB, PowerRox93, Battousai, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zang, Chronopie

The people on this list need to form cases and vote. This is half of remaining town, and it will kill this game if you don't. And scum win lagged games.

[Ghostlin]

Time for an ISO, comrades.

Chronopie ISO:
1: RVS vote.
2: Questioning votecounts. Pointless
3: Comment on Leos post restriction. Still pointless.
4. 'LOLIGOTPRODDEDGAISE'.
5. Stating ze obvious, and a tovn list viz no reasoning behind it.
6. 'LOLIGOTPRODDEDAGAINGAISE, LOL@POVERSCLAIM, VOTEDIESCUMDIE'.
7. Pie doesn't like ze second part of ze trap, but votes Plum for ze second. I'm calling BS here. You can't pick and choose in zese kind of cases. Eizer you don't like ze trap, or you don't, not just zis part, just because you can use it as justification for a vote.
8. 'LOLPLUMISSCUMGAISE'
9. I'm not even sure vhat ze purpose of zis post is. Are you saying you believe Plums claim, and zink its a scumclaim, but you're going to unvote anyvay?
10. See above.
11. 'IMSOAVESOMECAUSEIMHAMMERINGPLUMSCUMANDIMGUNNACLAIMVHILEIMATIT'. Zis is so bad. Ze only time you claim viz a hammer is vhen you selfhammer IMO.
12. Zis is a very bad post. You vanted discussion on Plum, but vhen people took your opinions on her as scummy, you finished ze day? Zats scum right zere.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Chronopie

Ghost, you forgot ze post restriction.

Again?! Zis post restriction is killing me, comrade. I'm really, really bad at zis.

Mod: can I beg forgiveness nov?

I am seriously just forgetting, I'm not even trying to.

[Ghostlin]

Follow up post due to accidental submitting and burning my lunch...

I agree vith ze sentiment of vaiting vor Chrono's explanation under the threat of a lynch.
I vill add Batt to my list of zuzpects, he is being extremely cautious with his vote and I'm not sure what pro-town purpose that serves. Additional pressure on anyone is better than not voting while waiting to make the case...

I vould still like Povverrox to claim his svitched targets because it could potentially put misinformation in ze hands of investigative roles if he does not - especially if he is town and gets killed before he has had a chance to reveal. But I can modify that to "claim if he is going to get lynched" because I don't zink he's town so revealing his targets could just create unnecessary VIFOM at zis point.

Ve're seeming to vant lynch Comrade Chronopie right now. Zat said, I don't oppose a Poverrox lynch, Comrade. Honestly, there seems to be no good tovnie reason for acting the vay either of zem did: and before I get shouted at for tovn/scum roles, eizer Chrono's or PR's could be tovn/scum roles with zeir ability. Personally, my scum list is in order:

Chronopie

(still has not given a good reason for what he did and denied us, while veak, a investigation role. Because of zat, comrades, I find his pover dangerous and outright scummy in his hands)

Powerrox

(scum contradictions, delaying tovn from progressing day 1, active lurking)

AntB

(lack of content, flying way too lov under the radar, active lurking)

Three is enough for scum suspects for nov: alzough I'm suspicious of ozers, and I'm vondering vhat Comrade Battousai is zinking, I'd like to knov vhere he's going viz zis current line of questioning.

Ve (and zis means I vill not vote for) are not lynching Comrades Zodiark, AV or Leo today.

[Ghostlin]

I'm only here for 5 minutes, so I'll try put a quick post togezer Comrades.

--

Da, my pover works on boz myself and my target in an L-[+/-] fashion, simultaniously putting myself further from lynch, as ze target gets closer. It doesn't reset VCs (clearly), and can be used to hammer (obviously).

Vere I scum, and somehov made it to Lylo, it would be an instant vin (both insta-lynching, and making me unlynchable). Zerefore, on role related grounds, I posulate zat my role would be completely imbalanced in ze scum hands, zerefore I am not scum. and ofc I know my alignment.

Vis is first off, VIFOM, and secondly doesn't mean you're tovn, or even pro tovn, Comrade.

You'll have to do better than vis.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Tvo requests: Due to Comrade Chronopie's pover, I ask vat voting is restricted to his vagon and maybe one other scum suspect today. I recommend Poverrox if you are convinced by Chrono's charge zat his pover would not be used in anti-tovn fashion or given to an anti-tovn faction. I normally vould not ask zis, EVER, but if ve're forced to play around it to prevent mislynches, and Chrono is scum, ve may as vell force him to toss his buddies under the bus vith his pover.

If you feel you must vote someone zat is neizer of zese tvo people, do not zrow zese people under ze bus today: Leo, Doombunny, AV, Zodiark.

[Ghostlin]

Do not "zrov zese people under ze bus"? Do you realize ze of ze term "bussing"?

Minor FoS: Ghostlin

Yes, vith Comrade Chrono's povers, EVERYONE has an opportunity to be under ze bus. He doesn't need to even try.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: To clarify, even one vote v/Chrono's povers could kill someone that ve don't mean to kill, Zus making bussing easier for scum. Zey don't have to try, comrades.

[Ghostlin]

AntB 398- Vhy is poverrox scummy? Vhat about Chrono, pre/after his most recent post? Do you zink he could be possible VI?

Ghostlin 399, 402- Don't tell me vhat to do. If I vant to vote Leo or Doombunny or vhoever, I vill. I don't like being told vhat to do (notice I'm not using Comrade in ze vay ze mod vants). Also, you seem to be doing a bit of commanding, vhich I find scummy.

Ghostlin 408- Zat doesn't make sense. Tovn doesn't bus, scum do. It doesn't make sense to tell tovn not to bus zese players.

Concerning Chrono- I can see it as an added SK ability, but ze lack of tvo kills last night disagrees vith zat. Possible pover for a survivor role to increase odds of surviving. Unless zere is a role zat can negate it, zen it probably isn't a scum role.

Comrade.

My biggest problem vith this post? You spend all of your time complaining about me ordering you about zen you do giving me reasons vhy the orders are scummy. You've not formed a case against anyone, we're in the middle of day 2 vith a Chronopiebomb. Nov, you've got some nerve indicating scummy vibes when you've not formed an opinion. You don't like me trying to lead tovn? Fine. Come up vith an alternate plan. Come up vith an an actual case of why I'm scummy and shouldn't be trying to lead tovn or prod discussion. Have reasons. Do something to indicate to me you're actually playing this game.

If Chrono is scummy, he certainly can use his ability to cause mislynches and even bus his comrades. And the rather dramatic way his pover is used apparently is akin to pushing someone under the lynch hammer: "tossing them under ze bus" is quite apt. I'd rather not him autolynch anyone vorking for tovn. If I misused ze term according to the original mafia phrasing, I apologize. I vas going for dramatic and attention getting. Somezing that I hope you'd acutally zink about.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin 413- Scum like to be in control, commanding is a way to control the town. I thought it was pretty self-evident why. Telling the town who to lynch and who not to lynch is much more controlling than saying I find these players scummy and these players townish.

Zodiark 417- There is a difference between telling people how to act and telling people to respond. I like how you are continuing to ignore my questions.

Vote: Zodiark

#388 ansvers your question. If you did read his ISO and zere's nozing zere, zen that's a different kettle of fish.

Considering the only questions you've been asking are variants of one question that I can read, vhich is the PR case, there are other people vho have posted zat you've asked about and said nozing. Also, no one's voting for PR right now, comrade.

This looks really scummy on your part, at least in my opinion; choosing one of the group you called out to tunnel who acutally did answer the question.

FoS: Battousai

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: To zis date, and to be fair, tvo people have answered ze question about PR's case vhen called out on it: Zodiark, and StrangerCoug. AntB and Zang have not commented.

[Ghostlin]

@Comrade Battousai
I've made my zoughts on Poverrox clear already, Chronopie is a strong second scumspect. I vould like his ability removed sooner razer zan later as it could really mess zings up nearer LyLo. ze attempt at self-clearing is somezing I don't much like eizer. Also, I must be missing ze question on PRs, as I can't find it.

PR= Poverrox, not pover role in this case, Comrade.

[Ghostlin]

Vat is L-2 on Chrono. I suggest comrades, even if Comrade Chrono is not lying, you make ze next votes when zey happen fairly quick to stop voting problems.

[Ghostlin]

Mod: DB revoted Chrono, Comrade.

[Ghostlin]

Oh. He did. My bad. *Sighs*

[Ghostlin]

EBVOP: Comrade

[Ghostlin]

Interesting, comrade. Any particular reason you chose Zodiark?

[Ghostlin]

Also, Comrade Moderator: Ve vill also need a vote count.

[Ghostlin]

No real reason comrade, just that he had no votes already on him, so ze change can only be attributed to me. otoh He's not a highly Tovn read eizer.

Vould you call him your most scummy, comrade?

[Ghostlin]

Unvote, Vote: Powerrox93

Right now, it vould involve 10 players to lynch Chrono. I don't have delusions zat vould happen today; so I am going to my next player on my scumlist.

I'm not convinced Chronopie is tovn or acting in tovn's best interests, but I do zink zat power could be unbalancing in the hands of mafia.

[Ghostlin]

Comrade CES: Is zere a reason to go viz your suspicion of me?

Yes, comrade.

Poverroxlynch = bad.

Care to share vhy you think he's tovn, Comrade? You posted a scum list, but not much reasoning to go viz it.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin - lack of scepticism regarding the dayprotect; his suspicions seem to match the easy targets rather well.

(Observant comrades will note zat Ghostlin is a nev addition to ze list.)

Let's svitch my vote for maximum productivity!

Unvote, vote: Battousai

1) I'm somezing of a fan of Occam's Razor in the early days: if someone says something that's scummy or does something that's scummy, odds are higher zat zey probably are. (Barring the existence of VIs.)

2) Oh, I noted ze day protect, Comrade, and did at the time. Do I think zat makes you more scummy than Chronopie or PR? No. I wouldn't say it makes you more scummy than Battousai, even, but if you're free to comment on vhy you did it and zen summarily disposed of Plum, I'm an eager listener.

3) You've previously taken any speculation on day protect as rolefishing, even vhen we've asked you vhy, not role you've had. Vhy?

[Ghostlin]

2) Oh, I noted ze day protect, Comrade, and did at the time. Do I think zat makes you more scummy than Chronopie or PR? No. I wouldn't say it makes you more scummy than Battousai, even, but if you're free to comment on vhy you did it and zen summarily disposed of Plum, I'm an eager listener.

3) You've previously taken any speculation on day protect as rolefishing, even vhen we've asked you vhy, not role you've had. Vhy?

2) You misunderstand what I mean by "lack of scepticism". Think about it.
3) Can you really not see how my role would affect my actions?

2) Huh? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
3) Possibly. If what you're doing is doing anything at all.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP:

2) Huh? I'm not sure vhat you're talking about, Comrade.
3) Possibly. If vhat you're doing is doing anyzing at all.

[Ghostlin]

Mod: I am feeling under the weather, I may be V-LA for the next day or two.

[Ghostlin]

Comrade Chronopie, if you vanted to prove your ability, vhy not use it on the active lynch?

Also, eizer ze mod is ignoring me or I have been given an extra vote, so;

UNVOTE: Poverrox
VOTE: Chronopie

Back. Or razer, ve'll try zis out.

Zat is a waste of time, and we boz know it, comrade.

Lynches I vill support today (in no particular order):

Zang:

Zat's the second time you said you've been catching up and posted no content. Is it really zat hard to post a V/LA post or let ze mod know?

PR

: A bit better on day 2, but zat's not saying much (and he's saying less) and we shouldn't ignore Day 1. Oh, and everyone believes Plum's claim. Nov.

AntB:

At this point

, I'm not sure I care about your meta either way, I vish you had a concrete contribution to vho else you think was scum. Also, you did the vhole 'active lurking is BS' sthick, vhich makes me trust you less.

Battousai:

I find your reasoning for Zodiark's vote extremely scummy vhen Zang's not ansvered your question, or any other. AT ALL.

Mod: I'm also looking for AV's Zod vote and not finding one when I read back through. Is the count correct?

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin 508- zere's a difference betveen villfully not ansvering a question and not ansvering a question because you are not participating in ze game. I don't see hov you can't see ze difference betveen "I vill not ansver your question" and "I'm v/la for zis veek" and "Rereading, vill post vhen I'm finally caught up"

SC/Zodiark- vhy are you still voting Chrono?

Comrade.

Zat's sorta still my point. Dodging the game is not less scummy vhen you not requested a replacement, etc. Plus, zese are the entirity of Comrade Zang's posts. ALL GAME LONG.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: I do exaggerate, comrades, somewhat, but he's posted 7 times. 4 of zose have been 'sorry, trying to catch up.'

[Ghostlin]

As irritating as it is, I have come to the realisation that today is the last day Chronopie can be lynched full stop, assuming his ability can be used every day, as every day after this, his lynch threshold will be pushed beyond the number of players. So, unless everyone is fine with an unlynchable

maybescum

running rampant, he needs to go today.

I'd like to try to lynch

acutal

scum today, Comrade. If the scum team dragged their feet, and zere vere zree of zem, we

could

no lynch today and that would be a worse fate. Hovever, since we knov ze Comrade Chronopie has a pover that is more than one shot, and according to him, less than infinite: how many shots does the pover have, Comrade Chrono?

[Ghostlin]

/prodded. Again. <<Insert generic excuse here about new Uni year, and sorting out finances etc etc.>>

I von't be unlynchable tomorrov comrades, don't vorry. Ze only point of the game vere I'd be truly unlynchable vould be 3-man Lylo itself. You'd just need an xxl majority any other time. Zat being said, revealing the number of shots vould be

counter-intuitive to my desired continued survival

. I may tell you at vhich point I've used Zen up Zough. And Zis PR is Full of Fail.

Zis isn't protovn comrades...

[Ghostlin]

Finally, ze zang case just looks like a policy lynch to me zen anyzing else and since zere are plenty of good, scummy candidates avalible for lynch, ve really shouldint te PLing.

Leo wonders why doombunny thinks zang isn't scum.
Leo wonders how many game days doombunny thinks it's okay to let scum go without saying anything at all.
Leo wonders whether doombunny would prefer a day 4 lurker lynch over a day 2 lurker lynch.
Leo decides that making excuses for lurkerscum is scummy.

QFT, comrade.

Hov long vill be allow ze 'townies' not even trying to play this game to remain in tovn? Zang, you promised a vall post of sorts two, maybe zree days ago. Time's up.

Unvote; Vote: Zang

Since I've accused Battousai of not going after people who've not ansverd the questions of tovn, it's time I put my money vhere my mouth is.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: In Leo-like fashion to the assembled comrades, Ghostlin also indicates zat he'd be villing to put his vote on anyone that are part of his scum suspects, should a lynch occur: Zang, Chrono (alzough he knows that won't be happening today), AntB, PR, and Battousai.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Should read, be possible to occur.

[Ghostlin]

Unvote

Villing to hear vhat Comrade Zang's replacement has to say for zemselves, actually. I still believe the possibility of Comrade Zang lurker scum, but I do vhat to hear vhat his replacement has to say. AntB essentially admits to similar productivity in 535: I fail to see it's protovn, in either case, Comrades, and Ant's been flying under the radar before nov.

Vote: AntB

[Ghostlin]

No, I swear I'm not Zodiark comrade!

Interesting, because that's who the question was asked of.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Interesting, because zat's vho the question vas asked of, Comrade.

[Ghostlin]

Leo

unvotes

and

votes zodiark

to L-2.

Any particular reason, comrade?

[Ghostlin]

@AurorusVox: Vhy did you suspect me of being ze same person as comrade Zodiark?

Comrade: vhy did you ask this after you answered a question meant for Comrade Zodiark, defending again hov you're not scummy?

Vhy did you post nozing of import when asked Day 1, just posting 'I believe Plum's claim' after the flip?

Vhy has your contributions day two only been marginally useful, and your last five posts have either been somevhat parrotting or useless in the scum hunt category?

Ze case for Comrade Ant B doesn't look like it's going anywhere, but I can see a continuation of your case Day 2 from Day 1.

Unvote; Vote: Poverrox.

[Ghostlin]

EBVOP: Zat should be PR at L-2 as vell.

[Ghostlin]

Leo looks around for someone to translate what Leo and SC are trying to say. Well, really, Leo looks around for someone to say whether SC appears to understand Leo. Leo finds it unclear whether SC realizes that the linked post was not made by Leo.


But Leo looks around with much more urgency for voters.
Leo sees

seven

people not voting for powerrox.
Leo expects all of these people, with the exceptions of powerrox, Zang, and Leo, to state whether they support lynching powerrox. Leo tries to remember back and recalls that CES, at least, at one point opposed the powerwagon. Leo pulls out a calculator and decides that there are

three

others - battousai, doombunny, and chronopie, who Leo is uncertain about.
Depending on how many of these 3 or 4 support a powerlynch, Leo expects the powerrox voters to either respect that they are not a majority and give up, or try to convince people to join the wagon.

Leo: I've given you my reasons. I've given you my case more zan once. At some point, Comrade, I even get sick of hearing the sound of my own e-voice. I don't see how you can justify PR as tovn.

You vant me on a lynch you support, I vill support eizer an AntB or Battousai lynch. I don't support a Zodiark lynch

AT ALL

, and will out and out refuse to vote for him particularly since it's zat much easier to lynch him since you did insist on a super majority, and yet are voting the candidate afflicted by Chronopie's vote shenanigans--Chrono may not be scum, but he's not acted entirely protovn either, and I find ze idea of helping a party zat is not working to a tovn end drive an unknown agenda that is not pro tovn, only slightly less repulsive to driving a scum one.

[Ghostlin]

Leo nods to AV, but hints that finding 2 more Zodiark voters should be much easier than finding 2 more powerrox voters.

Leo hopes that powerrox will not take to the grave their knowledge of what their N1 action was, in the possible scenario that powerrox is lynched today.

Are you vanting a correct lynch or a quick one, comrade? Because that's vhat the last two posts lean more tovards. Particularly zis one. If you want plurality for one lynch, you should want it for all lynches.

My argument about Chrono acutally goes somezing like zis: he chose his lynch alteration target apparently at random. He's not acting in the best interests of town and has delibrately done zings to ensure that he survives. I would guess he's a survivor of some kind or perhaps a lyncher zat needs a # of lynches. Zat doesn't mean zis is ze right lynch.

If you vant, I can tell you how I know Zodiark's tovn. It will shorten my life expentacy, however.

[Ghostlin]

Leo looks at you to see whether you know how to do it already or need insturctions.

I vould need instructions, Comrade.

[Ghostlin]

I zink I got it. If it doesn't use up your daily messages, send me one, Comrade Leo.

[Ghostlin]

Every player is a PR (Zis vas mentioned during signups).

Leo doubts that every player has information they would wish to pass on at this time.


Leo points back to the fact that Leo can use the note-passing ability only twice per day.

Leo figures that if Ghostlin dies and flips town PR, we'd all just assume that Ghostlin used their ability N1 in a way that resulted in info that clears Zodiark... Leo checks to see that Ghostlin still wants this given that Leo unvoted.

It's fine, comrade. My flip vould tell you everyzing you needed to know.

[Ghostlin]

I fucking knew AntB was scum.

And yet you gave him the Vig to end the game.

[Ghostlin]

Read the scum QT, kinda lolled at the conjecture I was the doctor. CES's mass roleblock helped me stay alive to kill Batt and I think threw off scum to the fact that my mason partner was the Doctor. I probably should of killed AntB, but he was so bluntly obvscum to me it hurt. I couldn't get the last scum player, and I wouldn't have suspected it was AntB.

[Ghostlin]

AV, rather.

[Ghostlin]

Mason QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/wxpZrzR5tPVZe

[Ghostlin]

AV: N1 Vig included Zang, which was the SK.

[Ghostlin]

Real shame; feel the town had good chances of winning this one.

Can't say I feel bad about my play this game:

Townish:
Leo
StrangerCoug
Chronopie (role-based)
Powerrox93

Null:
Doombunny9
Zang
Zodiark13
Ghostlin

Scummy:
AntB
AurorusVox
Battousai

Re: Dayprotect. It was meant as a simple reaction-test, but when people seemed to take for granted that it was real I figured I could try to create the impression that the protect was for during the night and try to draw the nightkill that way. The unexplained scum tell was the lack of scepticism towards the dayprotect.

I already had a mental theory about it mostly because Chronopie didn't die. He had hammered Plum; so I thought any protection you granted to Plum transferred to him...I didn't know about the mass RB until I was dead.