Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[DLG]

Howdy, all. Looking forward to a good game.

Why is it that everywhere it says my name it's spelled incorrectly?

I don't know the answer to that. But, if it'll make you feel better to see it spelled correctly,

VOTE: Pomegranate

[DLG]

Don't worry real Bub, we'll save you.

Why do you think the real Bub is worth saving, anyway?

Vote: Flinter wee.

Do you think your vote might be more useful if you confine it to players in the game?

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Pomegranate

VOTE: Final Fires

Sheeped my joke on Pomegranate, sheeped the Yosarian2 wagon, got nervous about doing so, and "promised" he's not scum - so we

obviously

can't suspect him. NewbScum is still scum.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to whom I should vote?

Yes, I do - Final Fires.

[DLG]

I just noticed that Empking's signup page had 15 people /in, the #9 slot was used twice. So somehow that meant Flinter is not in the game even though she did /in?

Yep, that is strange. I don't know what to make of rekirtS vote even more, now.

If you have to lynch me tonight then fine, but afterwards maybe you'll take my accusations seriously.

This is bad reasoning. Even if you

are

town and were lynched right this second, your accusations are not thereby made more accurate (except in that the potential pool of suspects has just been reduced by one player). Town alignment does not equal omnisicience.

um, it's

RVS

, SO SHUT UP

Why so insistent about telling Final Fires what to do? That surely looked like an instruction as opposed to advice to a new player.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Final Fires
Post #40 reads to me as consistent with a Newbie who was operating on a false understanding of how things would operate based on previous experience from a different venue.

Please familiarize yourself with the rule set of this game to prevent some of these misunderstandings.

Out of the whole exchange, two things caught my attention.

1. Pomegranate's "SHUT UP" post seemed to make Final Fires look worse by giving an impression that they are connected. Three players addressed this post - me, Bub Bidderskins, and Final Fires.

@ Pomegranate
Why did you elect to respond to Final Fires' apology and neglect to respond to either mine or Bub Bidderskin's direct questions to you?

2. Bub Bidderskins' vote post on Final Fires (#38) highlighted some reactions by other players surrounding the Final Fires debate, but missed a similar one entirely.

@ Bub Bidderskins
Why did you point out what DarlaBlueEyes had done, but give no attention to MoreWhisky who had done basically the same thing?

[DLG]

Like any other RVS vote? What other info could you gain from my vote?

Because it was a vote on a player not in the game, it was out of the ordinary. Out of the ordinary equals worth looking at. Jahudo pointed out the /in page discrepancy but, I still wanted to hear from you about it.

[DLG]

@ Bub Bidderskins
Re: missing MoreWhisky pushing the Final Fires wagon, fair enough.

@ MoreWhisky
Since both DarlaBlueEyes and Bub Bidderskins came to the same conclusion that ender241 looks scummy, do you also suspect them in addition to Yosarian2?
What was the difference between Final Fires looking NewbScum and ender241 looking NewbTown for you?

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage
4 posts: 1 minimally game productive (RVS), 1 insult, 1 fluff conversation, 1 unrelated comment on first potetnial lynch suspect
+

0 analysis regarding game developments

Scummy active lurking.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Albert B. Rampage

I felt that responding to his question would also provide a response to your question. And it was easier to respond to FF's statement due to the fact that it wasn't a pointed question, because those fluster me, and I usually end up doing what Ender did.

Yes, your response to him did provide an answer to me. However, the rest of your reason gives me pause. Repetition of this kind of play will be grounds for major suspicion from me.

Basically i really don't know in my last game (which i have recently been killed as doc which was a newbie game) i did it alot i should really stick to my votes...

Up until this post, I was not getting a scummy read off of ender241. This post, however, reads like someone who is nervous trying very hard to reinforce the idea that their suspicious behavior should be ignored. It is also worth noting that DarlaBlueEyes supplied the excuse that ender241 is hanging his defense on.

FOS: ender241

I thought it would be easy to infer my reasons

You thought wrong. You also completely avoided DarlaBlueEyes question to you earlier asking for an explanation of your bandwagon vote on Final Fires.

HOS: bobsnox

Where are brokenscraps, Jahudo, and Nikanor?

[DLG]

VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

DarlaBlueEyes's stance on ender241 is extremely wishy-washy. She has not provided reason for pushing the Final Fires wagon without being willing to vote. She used MoreWhisky's not answering her question as reason to vote him, but did not find bobsnox doing the same thing even worth noting.

I think Bub Bidderskins and rekirtS are on the right track.

[DLG]

With that being said, some more experienced players whom I trust seem to be ok with you, so for now I'm holding back my vote.

Who, in particular, are you willing to follow this way and what makes anyone that trustworthy this early? If ender241 seems scummy enough to pressure this way, why not vote him? This seems like a combination of ender241 and DarlaBlueEyes in one argument.

No original thought jumping on what other people say?

Except for pointing out the discrepancy in her actions between MoreWhisky and bobsnox?

Don't like the low level buddying going on between some of you either.

I don't like the ambiguous, unsubstantiated accusation. Please clarify - with evidence.

@ DarlaBlueEyes
My biggest suspicion of you is the equivocal stance you have taken on both Final Fires and ender241. Can you explain how taking this approach towards players receiving increasing scrutiny is not scummy?

@ Nikanor
Your last contribution was an unexplained vote on Jahudo. Since then, nothing.
Why did you vote Jahudo at that time? Do you still feel he deserves your vote? Do you have anything to offer regarding other developments?

[DLG]

I think Bub Bidderskins and rekirtS are on the right track.

No need to post this if you're just finding DBE scummy, especially since reskirtS was at this stage purely on Bud's track. Looks like you A) wouldn't have voted DBE if they weren't voting her and B) are using unneeded flattery.

My comment was intended to acknowledge that I agreed with them and to try to engender more support for the DarlaBlueEyes wagon. Agreeing with other players is not flattery. My vote is mine, and mine alone. I will place it where and when I see fit.

Contrast what I said with this:

Don't worry Fires. I believe you.

That is buddying. What I wrote is not.

[DLG]

We've still got a lot of time left for discussion, and at this point there's no benefit to me rushing a vote on him, especially when waiting could result in more information to make my decision.

Yes, plenty of time is left. However, I disagree with you about the value of a vote. Votes => pressure => defense => better reads. The unvote option is available for a reason, seems to me. This is a simplified model of how my read on you evolved.

In contrast, saying something along the lines of "Player A (who is getting pressure from other players) looks kinda, sorta suspicious, but maybe not so much" does not apply any pressure to Player A. Nor does it help if Player A goes on to get lynched. When everyone is looking back, there is no way to discern what you really felt about Player A.

It is called many things - fence-sitting, waffling, wishy-washy. I prefer the term plausible deniability. When it comes time to scrutinize how everyone interacted with Player A, you can defend your stance whichever way will be most benficial at that time. On a related theme, that kind of posting allows scum to pretend to be involved in what is going on without having to fake a solid opinion.

That is why it is scummy.

[DLG]

@ DarlaBlueEyes

I read your response to me as an elaboration of your read -which remains non-committal. In light of my previous post to Final Fires, can you explain how/why that is not scummy?

@ender is that an OMGUS I see? I think it is. If you read what I said I wasn't calling you scum I said I was leaning towards scummy more than noob town after I saw you revote out of pressure. I still was not convinced enough to vote you however. It's a contextual thing, maybe I should have made that more clear. However the more you do these obvscum things, the less I feel like I can validate my lack of a vote on you based solely on meta.

keep it up and I will vote you meta or not.

DLG bolding

How can he OMGUSsing you if you didn't vote him and in fact were leaning more town in your read of him? That reads like a false attack to try to make ender241 look scummier to everyone else.

At the end, is trying to scare someone as demonstrably weak-willed as ender241 the act of a townie, or the act of a scum using fear as a weapon? I read it as the latter.

[DLG]

Final thought for the night.

At the risk of becoming known as this game's "lurker patrol", Pomegranate do you have anything to say?

[DLG]

Am i right in thinking Darla is the next suspect of kill if i'm killed? If you all think Darla's mafia feel free to take me out to give proof to everyone else about Darla.

What does this mean? How does lynching you prove anything about DarlaBlueEyes?

[DLG]

Can someone who's on the wagon explain why you're voting for her again?

For my part, it comes down to several things in combination.

Plausible deniability posting in regards both Final Fires and ender241

With his explanation I think I was wrong in my initial impression and Fires really is just a n00b who made a bad move, but I really see no reason to lynch him over it.

Keep him on my scumdar? Yes. Lynch right away, no.

This was her final stance on the Final Fires early game wagon. The last part is the problem. It allows her to move either way without fear of contradicting herself. And, she can point back at this post to support whichever move is convenient.

Knowing what I do about Ender's META coupled with what he's done so far here, I'd say he's suffering from uber-n00b syndrome even still. That or he really just is not good at this game. Either way, I was a bit unsure whether or not to take his actions as noob or super scummy and then he re-voted seemingly only out of pressure. Now I lean more towards scum.

FoS Ender.

This was her initial stance towards ender241. She has vacillated between a progressively scummier read on ender241 and not voting due to her recent experience in another game with ender241. Same problems here as with what she did with Final Fires.

I consider this as much more indicative of scum thinking than cautious town thinking.

Strong-arm play against ender241

@ender is that an OMGUS I see? I think it is. If you read what I said I wasn't calling you scum I said I was leaning towards scummy more than noob town after I saw you revote out of pressure. I still was not convinced enough to vote you however. It's a contextual thing, maybe I should have made that more clear. However the more you do these obvscum things, the less I feel like I can validate my lack of a vote on you based solely on meta.

keep it up and I will vote you meta or not.

DLG bolding

How can he OMGUSsing you if you didn't vote him and in fact were leaning more town in your read of him? That reads like a false attack to try to make ender241 look scummier to everyone else.

At the end, is trying to scare someone as demonstrably weak-willed as ender241 the act of a townie, or the act of a scum using fear as a weapon? I read it as the latter.

Aside from the bare fact of manipulating ender241 puposefully, I find the fact that DarlaBlueEyes did this for the specific purpose of scaring ender241 away from voting her to be scummy.

These have already been covered in the thread. Below is something that I find scummy that has not been covered.

Grasping at straws to shift the wagon off her onto someone else

Alright. As per your

(Nikanor's)

point I did an ISO of him

(rekirtS)

.

Nikanor has not provided anything real to agree with. This struck me as a desperate attempt to find someone, anyone to help build an alternative wagon.

In combination, these points add up to a strong scum read for me.

[DLG]

@ ender241

Are you going to explain what you meant when you posted this, or not? Ducking this question is

not

an option!

Am i right in thinking Darla is the next suspect of kill if i'm killed? If you all think Darla's mafia feel free to take me out to give proof to everyone else about Darla.

I can only come up with three interpretations.

1. You are claiming to be town aligned and think that your flip will be the final nail in DarlaBlueEyes' coffin. This is ruled out by the fact that you didn't vote for her in that post and by your subsequent post.

I think that as soon as i can see better reasoning i will vote again.

2. You are scum, and have decided to run a gambit whereby you sacrifice yourself in order to make DarlaBlueEyes look so bad that she gets lynched on Day 2. This would require a level of sophistication that the personna you are putting forth seems incapable of.

3. You and DarlaBlueEyes are both scum, and you screwed up thinking that your scum flip would somehow clear her name.

If there is another interpretation, explain it. NOW!

[DLG]

I think if everyone thinks Darla is scum that it would be a wise choice to kill her, if i have to be killed for a scum to be taken out then i am willing for that to happen.

I guess that means your intent was option #1. And, yet, you just can't quite find it within yourself to vote for her, yourself. If your actions matched your posts, I might be tempted to believe you are sincere.

Your words are saying "I'm townie", but your actions are saying "I'm scum".

I still find DarlaBlueEyes play suspicious and worth my vote. However, for the record, I would also gladly support an ender241 lynch. While there may very well be a connection between them, I think either one is a good lynch for Day 1 independent of each other.

[DLG]

And I notice my post is starting to get too long

Welcome to the game.

I was left with the impression that you were going to continue your thoughts in another post. Please do so.

She will be posting on Saturday night.

Evidently, she won't. You absolutely need to input something.

If we lynch DBE and she flips town, bobsnox and whisky should be suspects number one and two.

Any thoughts on rekirtS if that scenario comes to pass?

If Pomegranate continues to lurk away through this debate, she will become very suspicious in my book.

@ Nikanor
You seem to be intentionally disguising any real analysis. Why?

I also note that you have offered a hand of friendship to the first two big suspects of the game. Again, why?

I want real answers from you. Not the cutesy fluff you have been posting, so far.

[DLG]

@ Pomegranate
Fair enough. Life happens at the most inconvenient times. Please post as soon as you can.

@ Final Fires
Can you explain how your attacks of bobsnox are not indicative of a chainsaw defense of Darla?

@ Yosarian2
I see a disconnect between your current vote (ender241) and your current shift to what looks like strong suspicion against bobsnox. I realize that we each only have one vote to use. Is your current stance that ender241 is more probable scum than bobsnox?

For my part, I do not share in the suspicion of bobsnox. Hostility towards his current suspects and attackers is not a scum tell. Bad reasoning in regards to thinking DarlaBlueEyes is more likely scum if he is lynched and flips town is not a scum tell.

What I do note is that through the efforts of DarlaBlueEyes, Final Fires, and Yosarian2 the cohesion of the DarlaBlueEyes wagon is being successfully undermined. Bub Bidderskins and bobsnox have now been pitted against one another instead of working towards a common goal. By my read, Final Fires has been more instrumental than Yosarian2 in this development.

If this wagon falls apart, I think we are missing a high probability scum lynch on Day 1.

@ Nikanor
Answers, please.

@ flinter
Continue, please.

[DLG]

@ Final Fires
My question to you was meant to highlight what I consider a bad argument for considering someone scummy. You posed a potential connection between bobsnox and MoreWhisky and rekirtS as part of the evidence against bobsnox. Your current suspicions of bobsnox can be described in the same fashion.

I think that making those connections before a flip is pointless. Any interaction between two players at this point could be scum interaction. You

could

be bussing bobsnox right now. You

could

be chainsaw defending DarlaBlueEyes. You

could

be ignoring brokenscraps because you are partners. None of those things are evidence against you at this time.

Once we have a lynch and flip and subsequent night actions to work with, then connections can be analyzed.

Aside from this one point, I do not think your points against bobsnox are faulty. I simply don't agree that bobsnox is the highest probability scum.

[DLG]

At this point in the game, if I see something odd/noteworthy, I'm going to comment and question about it. On day 1, everyone should have multiple suspects and be following up on multiple leads all the time.

Absolutely agree with this. Top 3 for me are DarlaBlueEyes, Nikanor, ender241.

I shall be reading up later today, glad to replace in!

Welcome to the game. Look forward to your input.

[DLG]

@ Nikanor

I want real answers from you. Not the cutesy fluff you have been posting, so far.

What, am I not turtle-y enough for your turtle club?

Unsatisfactory.

FOS: Nikanor

ender241 is either a VI or suicidal in terms of this game.

HOS: ender241

DarlaBlueEyes now appears to be trying to lurk away the suspicion on her and hoping someone else becomes the prime suspect. Standard scum tactic.

[DLG]

You are scum, aren't you?

Nope, are you?

I am not posting fluff.

Does worthless drivel seem a better description? The length of your posts isn't at issue. The forced silliness of your reasons is at issue.

[DLG]

Prefer this to a DBE wagon, although that's by no means awful. More on both of these and some other stuff tomorrow, too tired tonight.

Welcome to the game. Look forward to your continued analysis.

llamarble replaces ender

Welcome to the game. At least the player you are replacing left a remarkably low bar for you to exceed. ender241 looked very scummy in your slot. Can you explain this at all?

No votes til I'm done with the read thru and I have officially gotten my role PM now.

Big post is in the making.

Was your role PM the cause of this delay?

bobsnox and FinalFires both seem determined to out-scum the other in an attempt to make the other look bad. To both of you, why?

[DLG]

Darla and ender being scum together? wow i would have never thought of that but it seems to make sense. Top idea Bob im gona look into that more.

Im actually starting to believe i got it wrong about ender.

I still think hes a newbie but Darla has used this to there scum advantage. FOS ender for after we lynched Darla.

This is a flat out lie. The only possible explanation I can come up with is to further push the DarlaBlueEyes wagon.

Lynch this lying scum immediately.

UNVOTE: DarlaBlueEyes
VOTE: MoreWhisky

[DLG]

Yosarian is also kind of scummy looking.

Then again Whisky is also pretty bad.
Why does everyone in this town have a lynch lined up for after Darla/Ender???

Why does Yosarian2 look scummy to you? Without amplification, that just looks like OMGUS.

Yes, MoreWhisky does look pretty bad. Extremely bad. Get on board the liar's wagon.

I agree with the sentiment of your last question. Not sure why this mind-set seems so pervasive.

[DLG]

I don't see a lie though (please explain)

MoreWhisky started out defending your slot (ender241 then) as newbTown. He even stretched a case against Yosarian2 based on this read. After ender241 posted this

Am i right in thinking Darla is the next suspect of kill if i'm killed? If you all think Darla's mafia feel free to take me out to give proof to everyone else about Darla.

both MoreWhisky and I asked what ender241 meant.

What are you on about sir? are you sticking up for Darla? im really not sure.

The clear implication is that MoreWhisky was at least considering the possible connection. MoreWhisky then concludes this line of thought with this

Im actually starting to believe i got it wrong about ender.

I still think hes a newbie but Darla has used this to

there scum advantage.

DLG bolding

FOS ender for after we lynched Darla.

MoreWhisky's final thought on the matter is that DarlaBlueEyes is teamed with ender241 and is using ender241's bad play as a cover to protect them. He then just posted this

Darla and ender being scum together? wow i would have never thought of that but it seems to make sense. Top idea Bob im gona look into that more.

My conclusion is that this is a flat contradiction and lie. The question I am left considering is what possible motive is there for this. My conclusion is that MoreWhisky was trying to strengthen the DarlaBlueEyes wagon.

None of this lessens my suspicions towards DarlaBlueEyes. MoreWhisky has simply raced far past her in my view of probable scum through this lie.

[DLG]

@ MoreWhisky
Ignoring the lie does not make it go away.

Do you deny that you lied?
If no, then why did you lie?
If yes, please explain.

I will support any of three lynches for today: MoreWhisky, DarlaBlueEyes, Llamarble in that order of preference. At this point, I think MoreWhisky's lie and subsequesnt attempt to ignore it is the most significant scum tell of the game.

[DLG]

One more to hammer.

I will hammer Llamarble. It is time for a claim. 24 hour countdown starts now.

MoreWhisky needs to answer regarding the lie charge.

[DLG]

@DLG: WHY WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE LYNCH OF ANY OTHER PLAYER THAN ONE YOU CAUGHT LYING? YOUR PLAY IS CEASING TO MAKE SENSE FROM A TOWN PERSPECTIVE. AND WE HAVE A WEEK LEFT AND I HAVE PLENTY LEFT TO SAY, SO NOBODY HAMMER ME WITHOUT AT LEAST GIVING ME TIME TO TELL YOU WHO ALL THE SCUM ARE.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS; IT'S EASILY THE STRONGEST PRESENTED AGAINST ANYONE SO WHY ARE YOU IGNORING IT?

I can accept your lynch because your slot is and has been in my top 3 scum reads. I would prefer a lynch of MoreWhisky to yours, but that does not seem to be happening. He will still be held accountable for his lie.

Three weeks is a maximum, not a requirement.

Your read of DarlaBlueEyes oscillated almost as bad as ender241's. I still have high suspicion of her slot. Your case against Yosarian2 looked like pure OMGUS that was scummy because he has been the anchor of your wagon throughout.

Your Bub Bidderskins case revolves around him "knowing" you will flip town. This is based on an assumption that there is only 1 anti-town group in this game. Bub Bidderskins could be in one and you could be in another. So, that is a false dichotomy you are basing your attack on. Besides, I have a town read on Bub Bidderskins and your case did not compel me to re-evaluate that read.

I meant what I said. I am demanding a claim from you.

[DLG]

I'm sure I don't want a claim or a lynch until I've given this game a look with an eye more awake and more sober than either of mine are right now.

You are the only player who lost their nerve when I insisted I would place the hammer. Were your eyes sleepy and drunk when you posted this?

ender (Llamarble)
1. I didn't like his early vote for FF. By then, I think FF looked much better, and I think ender's line of FF looking like he knew what he was doing isn't a credible line of thought. FF's story of being thrown by coming from another rings really true, and I don't see how you could interpret it as scummy. After unvoting, not voting again until it was pointed out might betray that he was thinking more about his image than about his target or what his vote will do. Which is a little bit scummy - townies think about both.

2. His post 150 - "feel free to lynch me to show Darla's scum". You see these kind of appeals, usually from noobtown. But this one really doesn't ring true. When you see this from town, it is from tunnelled town who have shouted themselves hoarse about the object of their tunnel, to no avail. ender, on the other hand, had given DBE a middling FOS, since when he had voted MW for his reasons for voting DBE. This doesn't add up. He explains with "I think if everyone thinks Darla is scum that it would be a wise choice to kill her, if i have to be killed for a scum to be taken out then i am willing for that to happen." That doesn't sit well with me. If he doesn't really think DBE is scum, there's just no way that can feel like a good trade from where he's standing.

3. After an absence, ender comes back and throws an accusation at bob, a popular target at the time, for no stated reason, and does not vote him. A move which scum might well have made (it's a shame we can't ask him why).
...
On the scale of day 1 certainty, I think it's quite likely exactly one of Darla and ender is scum. I think the ender wagon feels more like a scumwagon - difficult to get going, not so many easy votes on it. Reading the game thinking "the scum don't want ender lynched" feels better than reading it thinking "the scum don't want Darla lynched". I think good reasons for voting ender have attracted remarkably little attention, which you wouldn't expect if the rival wagon was on scum. So I'm leaning ender, and my vote stays there.

[DLG]

[qutoe="MoreWhisky"]I thought maybe darla and llamarble are scum buddies, but ive now gone off that idea, im not gona join the Bw on llamarble.[/quote]
Continue to ignore your lie, scum. It might buy you another Day in the game.

[DLG]

It's not as if ANYTHING AT ALL happened between me stating a read and updating it that would provide a scummotive to flipflop.

Still rereading ISOs and stuff, but I don't like the DBE wagon.

Very next post.

Huh, maybe I was totally wrong on my first pass and Darla is actually scum. I don't see much attempt to figure out who the scum are coming from her; she seems to care more about convincing others not to vote her. On meta perusal I can see her being scum, but it's not very clear. How soon is the deadline? I need to read more.

What happened, the only thing that happened, in between these two was a vote-count which showed DarlaBlueEyes with 6 votes. Scum motive to flip-flop? Blend into the crowd. Don't stand out. Stay off the radar.

I'm going to go back and look for the case against Ender now and try to deal with it.

Except, you already knew what the basis of the case was.

I can see how Ender attracted some votes; he doesn't really make sense to me, especially the lynch me so Darla can die next stuff without a particular read on Darla. I'll just have to redeem this slot by CATCHING ALL THE SCUMS MWAHAHA!

This was just a buy some more time strategy.

Okay this Bobsnox guy looks town.

Based on the fact that he posted an objection to Bub Bidderskins play before you subsumed it as part of your "best case against anyone" in the game so far?

Ignoring a case against someone because you have a townread on them is ridiculous.

I didn't ignore it. I read it and wasn't impressed.

We have more time and as I have only had a couple of days to get caught up I find quicklynching me to be the move of scared scum.

I find begging to stall town momentum the move of a player who replaced into a scum slot that was played horribly by the first occupant.

ALSO RESPOND TO MY CASE ON BIDDERSKINS

It isn't even really yours, though.

The way BB is already blaming other people on his wagon makes me feel he knows it's a mislynch (157 and 200) and is already trying to shift the blame.

Add to this bobsnox's critique of Bub Bidderskins and we have

your

case in a nut-shell.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: MoreWhisky[/quote]
VOTE: Llamarble
Someone else hammer this scum. He's at L-1 now and refuses to claim.

[DLG]

Lawl @ DLG "SOMEBODY QUICKHAMMER PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE BEFORE HE FINDS US ALL SO I CAN LYNCH YOU REAL EASY TOMORROW HEHEHE"

Everyone recognizes that

you

have only been in the game a couple of days. Your slot, however, has been here all along. Quit trying to blur the line. Plenty of time has passed for reads to be solid enough for a lynch. No one is asking for a quickhammer play. As you, yourself pointed out

I've produced more content in 3 days than most players in this entire game. Why do you want to lynch me again?

Your reliance on an invalid defense of players trying to quickhammer is scummy. The contradiction between you posting a significant amount of content and claiming players are trying to quickhammer you is scummy. I want to lynch you because you and your slot look scummy enough to justify doing it.

[DLG]

DLG is massively trying to strongarm a Llama quicklynch. Very disturbing, considering Llama was his third option not long ago, and the others (DBE, MW) are possible lynches.

When you steal my arguments that highlight scummy behavior and try to turn them against me, at least use them properly. I have done nothing that could remotely be considered strongarming anyone. Either provide evidence or admit you misrepresented this and explain why you did so.

Yes, this slot was third on my list of preference. There was not enough variance between the three to prevent me from being willing to hammer the one that made it to L-1.

Could you please describe how being willing to hammer a slot that you believe is scum is wrong?

The contradiction (?) between Llama posting content and accusing people of trying to quicklynch him. Not sure I understand this, but that's what it says.

Two weeks is plenty of time to have enough content to make reads solid enough to be willing to lynch. Llamarble claims to have posted as much or more content as everyone else. Therefore, lynching him does not qualify as a quicklynch.

Llama basing an argument on BB knowing he was town. That's a line of argument used all the time. It's a common scumtell that scum know what flips are going to be, and going after Llama for using it is totally ridiculous.

For the sake of argument, assume Bub Bidderskins is scum. Since we do not know the set-up is confined to scum vs. town, Bub Bidderskins as scum does not guarantee Llamarble is town. That is the falsehood Llamarble is selling. Why are you so gullible as to buy it? On the flip side, Llamarble's claim to be town does not make Bub Bidderskins scum for attacking him.

After all, by that reasoning, you must be scum for attacking and classifying that same slot as scum when ender241 was playing.

Your stance is confusing me. You replaced in, found a convenient spot to place your vote, then got very involved once the slot you voted was about to be lynched. Why weren't you pushing Bub Bidderskins as scum earlier instead of parking your vote on this slot?

[DLG]

Bub is OBVIOUS STRONGARMING SCUM.

WHY DO YOU AND Fishythefish NOT UNDERSTAND THAT STRONGARMING MEANS THREATENING ANOTHER PLAYER TO ACHIEVE A DESIRED RESULT?

[DLG]

At this stage of the day, bandwagons are good if and only if they are on scum. If Llamarble flips Vanilla Townie - which I think he will - this day is a

failure

. The information from his lynch is not nearly enough to make up for lynching town.

This is tripe.

At this stage of the day, bandwagons are good. Period. No qualification needed.
We get it, already. You flip-flopped on your read of that slot. That doesn't mean everyone else did, also.
A "

failure

"? Really? Can you say Appeal to Fear? No townie is ever 100% sure that they are lynching scum. Lynches advance the knowledge available to town, regardless of the alignment of the player lynched. Lynching scum is always better than lynching town, but lynching town is nothing near to

failure

on Day 1.

Are we only supposed to overcome the fear of mislynching if you lead us to the lynch? Or, can we use our own reads and minds to get there?

[DLG]

I don't want anyone to hammer until that scummy lurker Nikanor gets a chance to weigh in.

I think we'd all appreciate some valid input from you. Please follow through.

I'm certainly comfortable with a MoreWhisky lynch. I'm also comfortable with a Llamarble lynch. Below those two, I have remaining suspicions towards DarlaBlueEyes and Nikanor.

I am perturbed that so much discussion is being spent on possible scum pairings and advanced planning of suspects on Day 2. All the arguments that revolve around Player A being more likely scum because of their interactions with Player B are off base at this point. It is Day 1, and we should only lynch a player if they are scummy by themself. It should not be this difficult to attain a consensus on who to lynch.

The big problem with putting off the decision on who to lynch is that the town is left scrambling and rushed decisions are not good ones. Let's get it together and commit to a lynch and then move forward with the information we gain.

[DLG]

I don't understand the first sentence here. I don't see how any of my reasoning says that.

You read ender241 as scum. You voted him. Therefore, you must be scum for attacking such a townie slot. That is the same argument that Llamarble is using against Bub Bidderskins.

Go back and re-read ender241. Then, remember that Llamarble is in that slot. Llamarble's play looks to me like a skilled player replacing in a scum slot that was bungled by the first occupant.

I'd advise anyone who is having second thoughts about lynching Llamarble to do this. If your conclusion is that ender241 was scummy, then you should have no hesitation in lynching Llamarble.

[DLG]

says llarmable flip-flopped on Daria because she hadn't done anything between his posts to warrant a flop

That is not what I said. Here is what I said.

What happened, the only thing that happened, in between these two was a vote-count which showed DarlaBlueEyes with 6 votes. Scum motive to flip-flop? Blend into the crowd. Don't stand out. Stay off the radar.

For reference, look at Game Posts #275 - #277.

I like seeing votes going on MoreWhisky. He still refuses to address what I call a lie, and several players have tried to give him an out of being sarcastic. Here is the quote again.

Darla and ender being scum together? wow i would have never thought of that

but it seems to make sense.

Top idea Bob

im gona look into that more.

Remove the bolded portions and I could accept it was sarcasm. With them, however, this was not sarcasm. I believe this lie was the single scummiest thing in the game so far. His continued refusal to even acknowledge there is a question surrounding it supports my belief he is scum. FinalFires has caught him contradicting himself several other times. Par for the course, MoreWhisky simply ignores these charges in the hopes they will go away.

I can't vote in two places at once, and the vast majority of my suspicion of Llamarble rests on my ender241 read. I think Llamarble's case on Bub Bidderskins is sincere. I think it a case of genuine scum hunting from a scum slot. That would mean a multi-faction game, and while there is a possibility of that, there is no guarantee of it.

So there is no misunderstanding, I will have no hesitation hammering Llamarble if his wagon goes back to L-1. But, of the two, I think there is less reason to doubt that MoreWhisky is scum. Therefore,

UNVOTE: Llamarble
VOTE: MoreWhisky

[DLG]

So, instead of a relatively cohesive town that drove two wagons to L-2 and L-1 (twice ready to be hammered), roughly a week before deadline, we now are at just 3+ days with a fractured town chasing down phantoms and no sign of cohesion.

The two wagons were on DarlaBlueEyes and the ender241/Llamarble slot. There was suspicious interaction between those two players and both wagons were justified independent of the other.

I'd like an explanation for how this environment is more likely to achieve a town win from the players who insisted that the Day was being rushed.

I feel like there should be all kinds of scum on Bub's wagon by now if it's a mislynch. I would be the easiest D2mislynch ever, and I've provided PLENTY of justification for people to jump on the Bublynch.
*Checks*
Just fishy, who looks highly protown these days.

This is the same backdoor "logic" that Fishythefish used as part of his justification for voting ender241 over DarlaBlueEyes. It completely ignores the fact that a group of townies can see scumminess and be unwilling to be distracted.

You would not be an easy Day 2 lynch over this. Being wrong does not mean being scum. Being wrong with bad or no justification is indicative of scum.

Fishythefish looks highly proLlamarble these days. He also looks highly anti-town cohesion these days. Neither of these is protown.

I don't see it is any more likely than a BB lynch, and I'm up for either about equally.

Yes, up for anything that would keep the town fractured. Why is your motivation so anti-town?

@ werewolf555
Welcome to the game. Your input is of prime importance at this stage.

[DLG]

Please explain how my play is "antitown". AFAIC, my play is antitown if and only if Llamarble is scum. It is not automatically antitown to try and derail a lynch that looks like happening. Cohesiveness =/= scum lynch. I saw a consensus I strongly disliked the origins of, so I went after it.

@DLG: I made a post where I criticised every (or nearly every, not sure) reason for which you have voted Llama. You have made no response.

Your play looks scummy if Llamarble is scum. Your play is anti-town for helping to destroy what consensus had been achieved. This is particularly true because

your vote was part of the origins of that consensus

. I never said cohesiveness is equivalent to lynching scum. You saw a consensus that you disliked the target of. At best, you could claim to dislike the late comers to that wagon, not the origins.

I responded to the points I wanted to. I didn't respond to the others because I was unwilling to engage in a debate designed solely to distract attention from the main focus, Llamarble. Classifying what was going on as you versus me perfectly illustrates the point. It was me versus Llamarble if it was anything. Who appointed you Johnnie Cochran to Llamarble's O.J. Simpson?

@ Jahudo
Are you willing to share who you are willing to see lynched, then? By process of elimination, I'm guessing Bub Bidderskins or me.

[DLG]

How is "We should be cohesive" a good reason to lynch somebody AT ALL? Scum have a bunch of votes that they want to use together to get somebody lynched. Therefore scummy wagons are often "cohesive." It is obviously much easier for scum to agree than for town. The most important goal of a lynch by far is to kill scum.

"We should be cohesive" is not a reason to lynch, it is a necessary component to achieving that goal. Therefore, any wagon which results in a lynch is cohesive. Townie ones and scummy ones. Lynching scum is always the goal, and the best possible outcome. But, what is always gained in any lynch is information which is what town lacks.

AND DLG FISHY DOES DISLIKE THE LATECOMERS (BUB BIDDERSKINS WAS L-2)

I agree. But, that is not what he said and that is what I was pointing out.

I've said I'll go either way - Llamarble or MoreWhisky. I will vote anyone but myself to prevent no-lynch.

[DLG]

I might be wrong, but I think that's L-1. Would anyone be opposed if I go ahead and hammer? This deadline is getting too close and I'm afraid waiting much longer might result in another derailed bandwagon.

I disagree with your count. By my count, we are at L-2 on both MoreWhisky and Llamarble.

[DLG]

Correction. DarlaBlueEyes' vote move made it 6 on Llamarble and 5 on MoreWhisky.

Better yet.

@ Empking: Could we have a vote count, please?

[DLG]

Currently there are 3 ways for Llama to be scum -
- There is one scumteam, and Llama is on it.
- There are two scumteams, and Llama is on scumteam A.
- There are two scumteams, and Llama is on scumteam B.
Suppose the mod came down and declared in a voice of thunder that BB was scum, and Llama was not his partner. Then two of these three possibilities disappear. Just because it is still possible that Llama is scum, doesn't mean that it is just as likely as it was before.

Nope. You missed SK. Four ways. 50/50.

[DLG]

DLG, that is garbage statistics, four ways does not mean 50/50.

Confined solely to the hypothetical situation Fishythefish presented, it does. Two cases he is not scum. Two ways he could be.

[DLG]

The world either ends tomorrow or it doesn't, therefore there is a 50% chance of the world ending tomorrow.

Not the same thing.

In yours, there are an unspecified number of days. In this case, we have a confined set of possibilitie. His argument is that 2 of 3 possibilities are eliminated by the hypothetical mod statement. Therefore, it is not equally likely. I counter with the fact that there are really 4 ways, and eliminating two leaves two. It is equally likely.

If you prefaced your statement with there are two days on which the world can end, then it would be the same argument, and the conclusion would be correct.

[DLG]

@ brokenscraps
Keep in mind that the 50/50 is only applicable as it applies to Llamarble being scum specifically as his alignment is related to Bub Bidderskins being scum. That is the root of this debate, and why I think it was game related enough to discuss with you in thread.

[DLG]

lol i never voted myself.

Ok im an undercover cop with a difference, im joining the escaped prisoners tonight as a prisoner traitor. now they know im screwed thats why i asked for doc protection tonight. So i will realise the name of the head prisoner who has a NK. I wont release the name of the second unless i get doc protection tonight.

Vote Darla

Now you may understand my behaviour more. At last something for you all to get your teeth into. Been loads of spam guys!

Oh, come on! A PR claim that has absolutely nothng to do with the little of bit of flavor we've been provided.

Is this just more sarcasm?

Someone hammer this scum!

[DLG]

Why is that?

VOTE: DLG

Extremely poor vote on Llama, which he refused to defend. Cannot be explained by tunnelling; he never had Llama as the most scummy player. See my ISO for details; this guy is scum.

Are you given to running entirely misrepresented cases against other players as town?

What, specifically, are you trying to claim I didn't defend? I demand some evidence or a retraction of this crap.

I never did have the ender241/Llamarble slot as the most scummy. I did have that slot in my top 3 scum reads. I was willing to hammer that slot, and even voted to move it back to L-1 when Nikanor unvoted to keep positive pressure on a scum read. Since my play was the consistent one, and yours most closely resembles a yo-yo, what is scummy about mine?

Current top 3 scum reads:
Fishythefish, DarlaBlueEyes, Llamarble

DarlaBlueEyes and Llamarble are carry over suspects from Day 1. Fishythefish is the player with a terribly unjustified vote on Llamarble at the end of Day 1. I cannot imagine a town motivation for selling all out to defend another player, then being willing to be part of potentially lynching that slot. Add in the asinine case against me for good measure.

Didn't like MW's very first content post (iso 1), fencesitting on FF. However, in iso 2 he comes down on the right side of the fence, saying that FF's explanation was believable.

How did you know MoreWhisky's conclusion was correct regarding FinalFires? We all know that, now. But, at that point, how did you know?

VOTE: Fishythefish

[DLG]

I'm not ignoring this, I just don't have time to respond now. It's going to need quotes. I think it's pretty clear if people read my ISO.

How about I just go ahead and do the work for you?

Game Post #365 This is where you offer your commentary on my case on Llamarble, among other things. Of significant note is the fact that you did not ask for any response.

DLG is massively trying to strongarm a Llama quicklynch. Very disturbing, considering Llama was his third option not long ago, and the others (DBE, MW) are possible lynches. Points he's since used against Llama:
- Saying he doesn't want to be quickhammered, and that people pushing that line are scummy.
- The contradiction (?) between Llama posting content and accusing people of trying to quicklynch him. Not sure I understand this, but that's what it says.
- Not having an entirely original case on BB.
- Saying he's "go back and look for the case on ender" when he's already mentioned ender.
- Accuses Llama of trying to stall the momentum of the town by asking for a couple of day.
- Changing mind during read of game.
- Llama basing an argument on BB knowing he was town. That's a line of argument used all the time. It's a common scumtell that scum know what flips are going to be, and going after Llama for using it is totally ridiculous.
These points are awful. DLG is trying to throw absolutely anything he can find at Llama.

Despite your lack of a request for a response, I posted
Game Post #377 I didn't respond to every single thing you had posted, just those I felt needed to be addressed. Again, remember, that you didn't request a response.

When you steal my arguments that highlight scummy behavior and try to turn them against me, at least use them properly. I have done nothing that could remotely be considered strongarming anyone. Either provide evidence or admit you misrepresented this and explain why you did so.

Yes, this slot was third on my list of preference. There was not enough variance between the three to prevent me from being willing to hammer the one that made it to L-1.

Could you please describe how being willing to hammer a slot that you believe is scum is wrong?
...
Two weeks is plenty of time to have enough content to make reads solid enough to be willing to lynch. Llamarble claims to have posted as much or more content as everyone else. Therefore, lynching him does not qualify as a quicklynch.
...
For the sake of argument, assume Bub Bidderskins is scum. Since we do not know the set-up is confined to scum vs. town, Bub Bidderskins as scum does not guarantee Llamarble is town. That is the falsehood Llamarble is selling. Why are you so gullible as to buy it? On the flip side, Llamarble's claim to be town does not make Bub Bidderskins scum for attacking him.

So, I directly responded to your main point, your first two points which were related, and your last point. 3 out of 6. What was I supposed to say about the others? Fishythefish says these points are

awful

, but I disagree?

Game Post #383This is remarkable for your ability to contradict yourself in one single post.

@DLG:
Re: "strongarming". You're quite right - I picked that term up from a post of BB's and it's the wrong one. Doesn't change the points; you're pushing a wagon very hard for very poor reasons, and trying to get a lynch quickly.

Re: "quicklynching". It's not about how much content Llama has produced, it's about how much he's currently producing, and what's happening. Here's why I think it's bad for you to threaten to hammer: even if Llama were equal with DBE and MW, you should want to firm up your reads on all of them, particularly when the others are possible lynches. It's not natural to just go after one candidate and threaten to lynch him immediately.

Re: BBscum -/> Llamatown. Quite right, actually, I have been making that assumption and it's a bad one. It doesn't change all that much. A terrible wagon does make Llama more likely town, and BB's attacks are still incredibly scummy. You don't address my actual point here. Llama said BB was scum for knowing Llama was town. You said that makes no sense because BB wouldn't know that. But scum do assume other people are town, and it's common to use that as a scumtell. I was criticising your point against Llama.
....
You haven't defended any of your points on Llama.

How can you start a post by repsonding to my responses and then actually claim I didn't defend my points? And, how can you possibly be trying to sell that horseshit now?
Game Post #430 You tried it here.

@DLG: I made a post where I criticised every (or nearly every, not sure) reason for which you have voted Llama. You have made no response.

Game Post #435 I responded here.

I responded to the points I wanted to. I didn't respond to the others because I was unwilling to engage in a debate designed solely to distract attention from the main focus, Llamarble. Classifying what was going on as you versus me perfectly illustrates the point. It was me versus Llamarble if it was anything. Who appointed you Johnnie Cochran to Llamarble's O.J. Simpson?

Are we done with this, yet? I absolutely renew my point that your case on me is bunk.

[DLG]

Do you think his reasons are unjustified in his vote post? Or is it more about him settling on a target that he was defending before that?

My first impression was the second reason. After re-reading, though, I'll say that both are bad. It actually started here.

Wagons, in order of how much I like them:
BB = DLG (horrible jumps onto Llama)
DBE (nothing much has changed - still pretty scummy)
Llama (much better information lynch than others, and could definitely be scum if we are in multiscum or I'm wrong about BB/DLG)
MW (really only scummy if Llama is scum)

This looks like a transition post to set-up his vote move.

Deadline has got too close for me not to be on one of the biggest two wagons. With a heavy heart,

This was posted on February 3rd. For a player who was so adamantly pushing the quicklynch is scummy line, I don't understand why he felt he had to be on one of the two biggest wagons with two days left. A much more natural response would have been something like, "Please reconsider. I will only vote Llamarble or MoreWhisky to prevent no-lynch." Plus, the whole tone of the post is still defending Llamarble. These things do not add up.

@ Fishythefish
Game Post #295 bobsnox moves vote to Llamarble.
Game Post #305 Nikanor gives the Llamarble wagon a push.
Game Post #308 Bub Bidderskins moves vote to Llamarble.
Game Post #310 brokenscraps moves vote to Llamarble.
Game Post #313 FinalFires moves vote to Llamarble.
Game Post #315 I promise hammer and request a claim.
Game Post #352 CryMeARiver announces intent to hammer.

How come only two of us, me and Bub Bidderskins were culpable in your eyes for the attempted "quicklynch"?

[DLG]

My reads are 2/2 so far. I'm starting to feel like Cassandra.

Well, you and the whole damn town were reading FinalFires as town. Not quite so scintillating in that light is it? And, when you had that little interaction with MoreWhisky just prior to him being lynched, here's what you said.

I may not have access enough to vote in time tomorrow and lynching 40%scum60%PR (normally it'd be more like 60%scum but I dropped the percentage due to my read) is better than lynching 100% VT.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for MoreWhisky as Captain McTownie.

I detest "I told you so" posts. Ones that are so blatantly misleading are even worse. Celebrating the deaths of two townies to prop yourself and your reads up is ultra-scummy.

UNVOTE: Fishythefish
VOTE: Llamarble

[DLG]

WHAT. YOU ARE ACCUSING ME OF NOT HAVING A TOWNREAD ON WHISKEY BECAUSE I SAID I WOULD RATHER LYNCH HIM THAN MYSELF?? THAT IS RIDICULOUS. I specifically stated in the sentence you quoted that I had a town read on him which was weakened by his PRclaim, which turned out to be fake anyway.

No. I never said anything about you would rather lynch MoreWhisky than yourself. My point was that you came out describing yourself as an oracle, when the FinalFires read was one everyone seemed to share and your more MoreWhisky read was not as strong as you implied in that post. I particularly note how you tried to use this flim-flam to support your Bub Bidderskins case.

ONE PERSON DIED LAST NIGHT. THEREFORE GENUINE SCUM HUNTING PROBABLY MEANS TOWN. BUT IN SPITE OF THINKING I'M GENUINELY HUNTING FOR SCUM AFTER A NIGHT WITH 1 KILL, YOU STILL VOTE ME???

Let's be clear, although I know you want things blurry. I didn't think you were genuinely scum hunting after a night with 1 kill. I thought that before the night phase. How about the rest of that post that you truncated?

I can't vote in two places at once, and the vast majority of my suspicion of Llamarble rests on my ender241 read. I think Llamarble's case on Bub Bidderskins is sincere. I think it a case of genuine scum hunting from a scum slot. That would mean a multi-faction game, and while there is a possibility of that, there is no guarantee of it.

So there is no misunderstanding, I will have no hesitation hammering Llamarble if his wagon goes back to L-1. But, of the two, I think there is less reason to doubt that MoreWhisky is scum.

So, at the point where multi-factions seemed a reasonable possibility, I was willing to acknowledge that you seemed to be genuinely going after Bub Bidderskins as a scum suspect. Given the events of the night, a single faction seems more likely. In that light, I must have been mistaken about your sincerity.

The reason we are talking about whether I had a townread on Whisky or not is because Bub claimed I "Tried to push my wagon onto Morewhisky."

And because I called BS on your brag post. Convenient for you to try to shift the focus onto the easier to defend accusation.

These attempts to deflect the real points by misrepresentation are strongly indicative of scum desperation.

[DLG]

@DLG: with the opinions in the game, there was zero chance of a DLG or BB lynch in the time we had. Llama was the best option who might get lynched. Denying that would have done no good.

Re: why only you and BB. Your votes were the worst. BB has the added bonus that he's the obvious reason scum would want to go after Llama (Llama was attacking him).

My point had nothing to do with you accepting reality. My point was that for the champion of "quicklynch is scummy" (you) to settle in on the player you had given so much effort to defending with 2 days left until deadline is contradictory. I could easily accept that you would vote Llamarble to prevent no-lynch at deadline. But, that was not the case when you voted him.

I reiterate that I absolutely disagree that being willing to hammer a scum read is bad. I voted him back to L-1 after you had unvoted. I did it to try to get a lynch accomplished on a slot that the bulk of the town had expressed suspicion towards.

From a theory standpoint, I firmly believe that scum will have a much more difficult time avoiding being lynched when towns show themselves willing to use their lynches aggressively instead of being afraid of being wrong. On Day 1, I was gratified to be playing in a town that had such a general consensus on one slot. If that lynch had occured, and turned out to be a mislynch, then analyzing how each player attached to the wagon would be an important avenue of investigation.

Instead, we ended up in a position where it is remarkably easy to defend votes by saying, "We needed a lynch, and choice A was better than choice B". In other words, we can't investigate the wagon as well.

Just to be clear, if I have said someone is in my top 2 or 3 suspects, and they get to L-1 without my vote, I

will

be willing to hammer them.

[DLG]

All I saw was Ender's votes on FF. Which while wrong apparently were due to FF playing the newbcard and softclaiming.

ender241's first vote was for those reasons. His second vote had absolutely no reasoning attached. Except the inexplicable note that while he thought something was bobsnox, he'd rather vote FinalFires.

Again, you are trying to subtly rewrite history for your benefit. Scummy.

[DLG]

Afternoon town,

My name is Fate, nice to meet you.

I'll be in here with a stream of thought catch-up post that nails likely 75% of the scumteam and reasons with. As for when, I guarantee by Wednesday, but I'll get started tonight.

Thank you for your time.

Welcome to the game, Fate.

So, you're going to nail 3 of 4 scum for us, huh? Is the 4th one you?

[DLG]

Damn the luck!

I wasn't really serious with that question.

I disliked Nikanor's posting, and hope that yours is clearer. While I have some suspicion of your slot, it isn't noticably high at this time.

[DLG]

I completely agree
Just look at his attempts at "scum hunting" and his death becomes clear

You got something of a free pass on Day 1 due to replacing in and timing issues. Now, however, your stances have to be better explained. Please answer Jahudo.

@werewolf: why do you like the llamarble wagon? All the reasons provided so far? Only some? Any new takes on llamarble or ender?

[DLG]

I was hoping you were, because if you thought I was the 4th scum and that I was going to bus all three of my buddies in a row, then I would be able to count on your vote being proxied to me for awhile.

And I do enjoy me a nice following.

24 hours or so until I get to this thread, as it is I'm stalling on an essay by making this post.

Looking forward to your post.

Sorry to disappoint, but my vote is mine.

[DLG]

I apologize for derangedness, but look at the things people on my wagon are saying.
DLG:
"I must have been wrong that llama has been sincerely scumhunting because that would suggest llama is town" transcends normal confirmation bias.
"Llama is scummy because he professed townreads on the dead townies, which isn't a very impressive achievement."

First off, here's some other things I've said.

I particularly note how you tried to use this flim-flam to support your Bub Bidderskins case.
...
Let's be clear, although I know you want things blurry. I didn't think you were genuinely scum hunting after a night with 1 kill. I thought that before the night phase.
...
These attempts to deflect the real points by misrepresentation are strongly indicative of scum desperation.
...
Again, you are trying to subtly rewrite history for your benefit. Scummy.

The two points you picked out for this post are more misrep. I never once said that what you were doing suggested you are town. What has changed is my evaluation that what you were doing was a sincere targetting of Bub Bidderskins as a scum target.

What is the definition of succesful scum play? Selling yourself as a townie. The more skill a player has, the better the subterfuge will be. What is the definition of succesful town play (particularly against skilled scum)? Understanding that even a small bit of scum indication is enough to counter a fairly strong town read. The multitude of scum indications I believe you have given off are plenty enough justification for me to discount anything you post that appears townie as good scum play.

If your first post of today was just something that was unimpressive, I wouldn't have cared. But, you tried to paint yourself as better at reading things than the other players. I pointed out how you don't deserve any credit for either read and pointed out the scumminess of trying to use this false, self-annointing as a purveyor of hidden truths to push for a Bub Bidderskins lynch. The other scum motivation for this kind of post is to try to get some of the heat off you.

tl;dr
I think Llamarble is scum and Llamarble continues to try to misrep his way out of the points I bring against him.

[DLG]

I forgot to add that I do think the comparison to Cassandra is pretty accurate. I'm fairly certain that you have more information at your disposal than a townie does.

[DLG]

Fishy and DLG immediately get into a crossvoting town on town dickfight. Joy.

This is a possibility I've considered. The basis of our argument seems to be a strong theory disagreement.

Through your Day 1 post, I was with you most of the way. In particular, Llamarble should have been lynched when he got to L-1, twice. This, though, I don't really get.

Ah so Llmarble claims VT. Yeah I guess this seals it, Llmarble is bad obvtown.
*sigh*

I think given Final Fires soft-claim from earlier, Llamarble had no choice. If he guessed wrong on a PR, Final Fires would have CC'd and sealed the deal. I think he tried and failed to get an idea of what PR Final Fires really was and defaulted to VT.

Looks to me like you read ender241 as bad town, and came out the other end with a similar stance on Llamarble. Is that basically correct?

NOW IF ANYONE has any hesitation to vote Yosarian, please direct me toward your concerns and I will ease them, and we can lynch Yosarian together.

I'll humor you enough to say Yosarian2's ISO. The best point you have against Yosarian2 is that he becomes highly suspicious for his efforts to derail the DarlaBlueEyes wagon if and only if she flips scum. Of course, you also pointed out Jahudo doing the same thing. The big difference between what they did and what Fishythefish did is that they were doing these things earlier on and Fishythefish did it right when the town was at lynch point. Yet, Fishythefish is obvTown and they are likely scum? Does not compute for me.

Marble is on the verge of being lynched because he claimed VT and scum don't want to NK him.

Isn't anymore likely than Llamarble is on the verge of being lynched because he's scum and his team won't NK him.

I may not be overawed by your entrance, but there's this to soothe the blow.

I think "being Fate" is an investigative role.

Just be careful next time you sit down. Llamarble's nose is likely to break off up in there.

[DLG]

Fate looks town because the theory he's selling makes sense and is supported by game events. That doesn't make it correct, just a solid theory that's being presented in a cogent way. But, that's not the whole reason Fate's town.

The second part is that of the three top suspects in Fate's theory - DarlaBlueEyes, Yosarian2, Jahudo - choosing to target Yosarian2 has now given rise to two diametrically opposed competing wagons. And either lynch and flip will serve town remarkably well. This will also force the most reluctant players to actually take a stand.

The town is in better shape now than before Fate replaced in and that makes him town.

Here's my stance if it needed to be clarified for anyone. Llamarble is scum, not Yosarian2. Yeah, I recognize Fate is the one with the great reputation or track record or whatever, but I'm not swayed.

Lynching Llamarble would also clear up the mental block I can't overcome when I try to get a better read on Fishythefish.

Another thing: Vote Yosarian, not Llmarble. Llmarble doesn't die as long as I am alive. Is that clear?

You're not going to sell me on this. I won't vote Yosarian2 today unless it's a last resort. The information gain is equal, but my read is opposite yours.

This "he claimed VT at that point because if he had claimed PR it would've been countered" shit is just that.
1. A VT claim USUALLY results in a lynch, the fact that it didn't was a miracle of towniness from several people. THUS scum claim PR to either
-Live as a PR fakeclaim for ahwile
-Out a PR.
Also your excuse that "FF softclaimed, so marble didnt want to claim PR" is BS because WHETHER FF SOFTCLAIMED OR NOT, scum knows there are POWERROLES out ther ein this setup.

It should've resulted in a lynch. Of course, with Fishythefish fearmongering everyone about the possibility of mislynching, his VT claim was just about as good as a PR claim for the purposes of staying alive. In fact, a PR claim at that point would have reduced his chances of living because it would have been a coin toss to see if he missed Final Fires role. And, the scum didn't need to out a PR at that point because they already had one. Llamarble was focused on survival.

All in all, if Llamarble is scum, he's got to be powered up in some way. There's way too much resistance and scrambling over him getting lynched to explain it otherwise.

[DLG]

@ Empking:
I will be V/LA until at least late Sunday evening, more likely Monday.

@ Llamarble
In regards to the discussion about your role claim, please answer this.

@CMAR: please read and comment on my case on Bub. I intend to claim only after a good number of responses to it or on Tuesday, whichever comes first. That will still leave 4 days for post-claim discussion.

What post-claim discussion were you anticipating would arise from your VT claim? If you anticipated claiming VT would be a death sentence, just what discussion did you think was going to take place? I saw that as a hint towards a PR claim.

You posted this directly after CryMeARiver said he would hammer if you did not claim a PR. On Day 2 you posted this:

Cmar had recently stated intent to hammer following a non-PR claim. My wagon was twice the size of anyone else's. I had no reason to expect I would survive after claiming VT.

So, why hint towards a PR there? My conclusion is that you were looking for a PR claim that you thought might fly, and finally decided the risk was too high.

[DLG]

In my first post D2 I pointed out Bub's accusation that I tried to deflect my wagon onto MW was garbage because I was defending MW, which is the opposite of deflecting your wagon onto them. I found whisky scummy initially and felt him being scum was a strong possibility until I reread him in depth as he became a possible lynch for the day, whereupon my read on him changed to town, where it stayed.

You were not defending MoreWhisky at first. You were attempting to shift the wagon off you onto either Bub Bidderskins or MoreWhisky through your first 19 posts. Of particular note to this discussion is that MoreWhisky was not ever a top end suspect before you replaced in and I attacked him for his inconsistent statements. To this point, please answer these questions.

What is your town motivation for calling a player scummy multiple times without really reading them closely? Particularly one who has a charge of lying laid against them, but is not gathering votes like you are?
Why between the time of your ISO #19 and your ISO #33 did you have no comment on MoreWhisky (take heed that it is during this time that the MoreWhisky wagon truly formed and the Llamarble wagon was dissipating)?
Can you honestly say that the sequence of "MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, MoreWhisky is scummy, silence on MoreWhisky while his wagon forms, MoreWhisky is town but he is one of the three players who are the only viable lynches right now, waffle, MoreWhisky is town, waffle again, MoreWhisky is town, MoreWhisky is town, MoreWhisky is town" does not look like a scum approach?

It seems perfectly clear to me that your scum motivation was to shift the wagon off yourself, sell the MoreWhisky mislynch, don't interrupt the momentum of the building mislynch, then shelter in the sweet spot where you get to attach your vote to a mislynch while still being able to say "look guys, I defended that poor mislynched townie, I'm practically clairvoyant, let's lynch Bub Bidderskins." Saying someone is scummy but not voting them, then saying they are town but voting them is pure scum. That is what you did.

Llamarble on MoreWhisky. Numbers are Llamarble ISO numbers.

1. Whiskey looks scummy, but we'll see how things appear once I'm fully caught up
...
4. Then again Whisky is also pretty bad.
...
5. So he thinks Darla is using the newbcard to defend Ender? Lining up a lynch for after a scumflip isn't as big a deal as lining one up for after a townflip, but this guy's scumhunting is not impressive. I don't see a lie though (please explain) and he looks like a pretty easy mislynch if town.
...
11. Huh, I still don't see where Morewhisky is contradiction-lying (please make this clear somebody who thinks he is).
But he has done absolutely pitiful scumhunting, and is bandwagoning like a champ. So he's a likely Bidderbuddy.
That would make sense with Bidderscum's play; Lynch town today, FOS a buddy and a townie for tomorrow.
...
15. And I get the morewhisky contradiction now, but I think he's actually just being sarcastic when he compliments Bob on his 'original' idea. Whisky is still scummy though.
...
16. Scummy:
Whisky
...
17. That said I don't think Whisky's supposed contradiction was anything other than sarcasm even if he's scum.
...
and for claiming to believe somebody is lying but not seeking to force through their lynch (maybe cause you're buddies?).
...
19. though at this point Whiskey looks pretty scummy.
...
33. At the risk of more "look he changed his mind!" complaints:
I reread Whisky and I no longer think he's scum. He makes a lot more sense in ISO and that "Wow I'd never have thought of that but it seems to make sense. Top idea Bob I'm gonna look into that some more." Post looks _way_ more like sarcasm than like self contradiction. Who says "wow I'd never have thought of that" or "Top Idea" nonsarcastically?? I believe he thinks what he says he thinks.
...
It is a good point that we have 3 days remaining. Everybody should be voting me, Whiskey, Bub. I don't think there's a serious possibility of lynching anyone else at this point.
...
34. Now it's time to do a more thorough investigation of Whiskey since my previous results on him were pretty conflicted.
I'm almost certain the "top idea" thing was sarcastic regardless of his alignment though.
...
35. I don't think Whiskey is scum either, though I'm in the middle of a post on that.
...
36. Still figuring out Whiskey (and reading other games).
...
37. Whiskey is town, I think.
...
39. Town:
Whisky
...
47. Gah I hate this situation. Either me or a claimed PR I have a townread on is getting lynched today...

1 and 4 Scum
5 Waffle
11 - 19 Scum
33 Town
34 Waffle
35 Town
36 Waffle
37 and 39 Town
47 Town

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Llamarble

I'm still thinking through the implications of all this, but first impression is that neither Fate or Llamarble is scum. Fate's "gambit" has been a long time in the making. Like since his catch-up post, and I think there's a little more to it than just the surface shows.

Llamarble's reaction reads town to me. As scum, I'd have expected a more violent kind of "Fate's lying, let's lynch him" response. I was disappointed it wasn't there. Too townie to be scum.

Time to come out of the tunnel and take a fresh look around.

Very first thing to catch my eye is this.

LOL.

I was about to go to sleep having unvoted one of my town reads and leave it there but that is too funny.

mega vote: werewolf

Are you serious?!?!? LIKE SERIOUS???!??!

What the hell kind of overblown, hypersensitive, scummy OMGUS reaction was this? Whether or not werewolf555's obsevation was worthwhile or pertinent, your reaction to it certainly is worth noting.

[DLG]

@ DavidParker
Hypersensitive because werewolf555 just provided an obsevation that you were playing different than his town meta on you. I don't see where he was really making a case on you. Do you disagree with his interpretation of your play in that game? That would make his point factually incorrect, but just the fact that you have changed over time doesn't.

[DLG]

Werewolf is scummy for voting me without giving any sort of reasonable explanation.

What I find unforgivable the most is ignoring the questions that have been put to him over it. Too much time has passed and too much has happened to make it a viable line of investigation, now. But, dodging pertinent questions is scummy.

@ bobsnox
What about werewolf555's vote of Fate made him yet another player you'd be willing to see hang? Timing? Being against your read of things?

[DLG]

Made a scumslip in saying that it was the

townies

on Llama's wagon who chickened out day 1.

This is a point that rings bells for me, more than anything else regarding Bub Bidderskins.

Not so much that specific post I quoted but rather his general activity in the game.

Seems like scum trying to ride momentum and stay out of the spotlight.

Fair enough, and I agree in general.

Alright, of everything at this point I'm most concerned with what looks like a real scum slip from Bub Bidderskins.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

[DLG]

Having re-read the sequence after bobsnox pointed out the potential scumslip by Bub Bidderskins, I find some more concern with the fact that Bub Bidderskins tried to keep the focus of that situation on the "chickened out" part rather than addressing the real point. I also note that both bobsnox and Llamarble allow the debate to go that way instead of focusing in on the potential problem.

@ Bub Bidderskins
Do you have any comment specific to your usage of pointing out that it was "townies" who left the Llamarble wagon?

@ bobsnox
Why did you let this go so easily?

@ Llamarble
Same question as the one to bobsnox, but even more I would have expected you to really go after this point as opposed to arguing about "chickened out".

[DLG]

Actually I'm hoping this Darla mislynch will save my buddy Yos, because a llama flip would def. screw him. [/sarcasm]

I get the sarcasm of your first clause, but the second clause only ties in as sarcasm if you know Llamarble will flip town.

How do you know that?

[DLG]

and because I tracked Nik last night and I knew that he did not target you.

Alright, so Nikanor didn't target Llamarble on Night 1. But, this doesn't say that he did not target anyone else. So, did he?

[DLG]

werewolf has a horrible vote on Llamarble.

Darla's vote on Llamarble looks like a justified ("he is sheeping, lynch him!") rather than a believed vote.

Despite Jahudo voting (and then unvoting) Llamarble he seems to be taking a no-strong-accusations approach. "There are some questionable motives on Yos, there are some questionable motives on Llama, I have a strong-scum read on Darla, let's vote Llama to 'help the arms race'". Not a good vote.

Bud's reasoning abilities have collapsed somewhat and he has stuck on the Llama vote apparently because Llama didn't get lynched day 1. I can just imagine the cases that will be made if Llama doesn't get lynched day 2.

As it is I'm uneasy about Llama being town, but the votes on him just seem so poor...

Jahudo's vote seemed the worst, but I'm not too sure about the unvote...

Conspiracy theory: Yos/Fate/Llama are having more fun bussing than they've ever had before. Game over town. Game over.

So, none of these votes meet your quality standards. But, are any of them in any way indicative of the main question here? You know, that little alignment question.

[DLG]

If Yosarian has any town sense left, he won't out his actual results until after (if) I am made to claim

(nods) Yeah, unless a tracker actually catches a scum killing someone, claiming unnecessary details is generally a bad idea, it just tells the scum who's a power role and who isn't.

Alright, I was hoping that would be your response.

[DLG]

@ bobsnox
Why did you let this go so easily?

I get tired of running into brick walls, basically.

Maybe you'll get something better out of him.

Sure, but you didn't even press the point.

For me, it's highly important because I've had a reasonable town read on Bub Bidderskins for most of the game, and this issue is making me reconsider that stance.

[DLG]

I think that Bub's case of bad wording involved bad logic...

This I agree with if it was just bad word choice.

@ Bub Bidderskins
Who are you referring to as having lost their nerve?

By my read, there are three players who could be described in this fashion. That is, they left the Llamarble wagon specifically when he got to L-1.

Fishythefish was the first, when I was poised to hammer. This has been debated at some length. Final Fires did it late in Day 1. This play put MoreWhisky at L-1. We know he was town. This, therfore, hasn't gotten much scrutiny.

The third instance, which has not been even mentioned, was Nikanor (now Fate) shortly after Llamarble claimed VT. This unvote saved Llamarble from a hammer from CryMeARiver.

The problem with Bub Bidderskins' characterization of players leaving the Llamarble wagon as "townies", is that the two remaining players who could be considered to have "chickened out" is that he is now attacking Fate and has stated a firm belief that Fishythefish is inextricably tied to Llamarble. There is a deep contradiction in this line of thought, and leads me to believe that this may have been more than just a bad word choice.

[DLG]

Translation: We can't mislynch Darla because she is having a bad day RL. So let's mislynch Bub today and then we can mislynch Darla tomorrow.

This is a rather large leap you've made. Can you explain in more detail how you arrived at this conclusion?

[DLG]

Bub vs. Fate, I don't have either as scummy (my picks are darla, david and fishy, with broken as extra gut read) but I'll iso them anyway.

You've given some reasons for your Darla vote. But, what about DavidParker, Fishythefish, and even brokenscraps?

Re: DarlaBlueEyes

There's also her claim that she assumed the two vote changes before her llamarble vote had come off Whiskey, even though one of them included the "unvote fishythefish" line and it was the exact post before her.

What do you suppose would be her scum motivation for doing this? If MoreWhisky had flipped scum, I think this would have been a very scummy move from DarlaBlueEyes. But, with the town flip, what scum motivation is there to her vote switch?

[DLG]

@ werewolf555
Do you have any opinion on anyone besides Fate or DavidParker at this time?

[DLG]

I have to say, I thin it's unlikely Llama does that to save a scumbuddy. Way too risky, it ties the two of them together too closely.

When you voted Whiskey, two days before deadline, you had a choice.

This is twice now that you have reversed players in your posts. Why are you paying so little attention to your posts?

I want answers from Jahudo, brokenscraps, and werewolf555. From all three, I want explanations as to why any player might seem scum.

I definitely want an answer from Bub Bidderskins regarding his characterization of the deterioration of the Llamarble wagon. The question in particular is

Who are you referring to as having lost their nerve?

[DLG]

Yeah, I had no trouble understanding your intent. I don't even attach any particular scumminess to the mistakes. I was just wondering if there was something hidden that I was missing. Your response eases my concerns because I find it likely that you might just make those mistakes if posting without really reviewing the posts.

[DLG]

@ Jahudo
Re: Rekirts => CryMeARiver => DavidParker, fair enough. I read those earlier posts as more questions than accusations, but that seems in line with your approach which is less directly aggressive than other approaches.

Re: Fishythefish
I still wonder about Fihsythefish as town settling for a Llamarble vote at the end of Day 1. But, given his earlier read of that slot as scummy, I can see a townie approach behind attacking what may have looked to him like a scum quicklynch and still reverting to a stronger scum read than MoreWhisky. I don't accept Fishythefish allowing himself to be tied to Llamarble so strongly as a definitive town move. If Llamarble is ever revealed as scum, Fishythefish's motivations will need further scrutiny.

Re: DarlaBlueEyes
I found her earlier play more indicative of scum than her later play, as opposed to your read of her play. I only brought up the vote switch to highlight this disparity. I would not stand in opposition to a DarlaBlueEyes lynch, and separate from what seems a severe personal crisis, I would support such a lynch.

Re: brokenscraps
I find myself in agreement with your instinctual scum feeling towards brokenscraps. I often find myself forgetting his impact on the game. This is a beautiful feeling for scum to engender in other players. For me, one hinky post by brokenscraps was this justification for his MoreWhisky vote:

This is how whisky votes Darla. That post didn't contain attempts to pin the scum tug on players, the questions she asks are not anti-town and posting from a phone is a horrible reason to vote someone. Yet he hasn't lifted his vote and continues to treat it as serious. Horrible vote-parking?

The key is that brokenscraps himself penetrated the confusion surrounding the phone business. Still, he uses this confusion as a reason to attach to what turned out to be a mislynch. This looks like scum just providing a likely reason for attaching a vote to a mislynch.

[DLG]

I'm a little confused by your response here. If you knew that I meant, then why did you ask? What did you think I was trying to say? What hidden meaning did you think you saw in my post?

I asked the question because confusing the names seemed odd to me. I asked the question to determine if there was something that I was missing. My conclusion is that there was not anything hidden, based on the way you responded. You didn't get hyper-defensive, you just said "yeah, I made the mistake". This is very similar to rekirtS RVS on Flinter before she was actually in the game. Just an oddity that I was curious if there was more to it.

[DLG]

I still like a Bub Bidderskins lynch. There is too much about his push against Llamarble I don't think makes sense - the "townie" confusion, the early Day 2 "FINALLY READ THE THREAD", etc.

Failing that, I'd be most willing to lynch DarlaBlueEyes. Setting aside whatever recent life events have made her unable to participate, her Day 1 play was the first serious suspicion I developed. In the few games I've played, I've found myself regretting letting go of early suspicions.