Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[Saint]

I'm here, guys. I haven't consulted with Vi, yet, so I'll keep this brief.

[Saint]

OK. I have read what Vi has told me, and she advised me against certain things. I had asked her about Parama's softclaim. I just skimmed Parama in iso, and I realize that he just dropped a bomb on someone basically. I have played with Parama before, in both extended games and marathon days, and I am familiar with his play. Seeing that in a skim of his iso didn't really surprise me, although Vi was a little put off that there was a daytime ability in a nighttime game that has night cycling. W/E.

I have been REALLY sick - ataxia, fever, congestion, coughing... bad virus. I am going to read the thread now. Expect a primetime post.

[Saint]

i've caught up, and i've caught scum
waiting on Vi before we come out with it

[Saint]

qatol ive got like 74 lines typed out (not counting quotes)
i want her to give her opinion on my reads, and possibly edit some of it to make sure my point gets across properly

[Saint]

TheLonging, good gut, bro.
It took me a few hours to read the thread. Basically, MoI and a few others shot around some setup speculation. Parama passed a bomb/hot potato to muh... he exploded... hold off on voting diddin right now, though, because we as a town need to force him to use his dayvig ability on who we want him to use it on as opposed to the scum getting to direct it assuming he is scum like you feel.

[Saint]

tired of waiting on Vi!

First and foremost, Parama is probably town. Vi felt it was funny that he had claimed a dayuse ability in a game with night-use abilities listen in the topic post. However, I felt like he was town regardless of his weird claim. Vi even agreed with "at the time parama is probably town for reasons you're suspecting... and now probably the same". Even if the bomb went off on a townie, said townie lacked reading skills, so c'est la vie. Would we want that kid around in lylo? I don't think so. The only thing that doesn't sit right with me was when Parama was fishing with the "no 'go town!' post?". You can't really blame Parama for us losing our watcher ability, and in this setup with so many roles that will be visiting, I'd say the watcher role in general would be weaker than normal anyways. If it was me with the watcher role, though, and I got passed a bomb, you better believe I would have passed the bomb to someone else ASAP... so therefore I do not blame Parama, and I view that situation as being null in general. I wish he would post less one-linery things, but that really is just how he plays... sigh

As of Implosions post #31, I would personally love to see if this guy can be lynched. Who is to say he isn't scum who got the shaft and just got a voteless ability? I suppose he would end up getting caught up in that... in his #40 where he's like "someone would have caught that my vote didn't count" my counter-argument is why did you vote at all? I would rather you have not said anything about this! also his #47... is that how treestumps normally work? i always thought they can't gain votes. i really, really, really want to test this. i feel like he is lying scum. Also, it's funny to me (or hinky as babyspice would say!) that implosion and pops always post back-to-back. Sure, in his #31, claiming it ahead of time seems pro-town, but who is to say that he couldn't do that as scum? I'm not going to vote him, but I have my eye on him. Also in his #40 I suppose you could say he attempted to confirm his treestumpness, but to me I always felt like you had to actually stump before it worked, as opposed to it being natural. His role feels like a reverse-floridian to me where he is voteless more than a stump, and I really feel he might be scum. To reiterate, though, I am not entirely sure on him and do not want to lead a mislynch.

Diddin needs to be monitored on his claim. We should publicly vote on who he should use his ability on. That is the only way we can make sure that he doesn't pull a parama and cause us to lose another PR.

I'm liking MoI's guidelines, but I feel that he is a good enough player to have this pre-made regardless of alignment, and adapt it to how the gameflow is going. Vi agreed with me on this. We feel like MoI is making it look like he is gaming the setup to find a loophole in the game. Pops and Narsis are also guilty of this.

RedCoyote's #84 is both scummy and lacking direction. I've gotten him lynched as a townie, and he posted completely differently than he did there. Whereas he responded to pops and implosion (two people I have my eye on) a lot, his post has NO CONCLUSION. I will await judgment on this, though, because I don't want to tunnel on all the active people... scum can lurk!

On page 3, I read MoI vs Pops to not be town on town, just mainly gut on game-speculation-argumentation. In MoI's #109, I really like his questioning of Narsis, CKD, and RedCoyote... a few people I casually have my eye on as well... so that means pops is the scum in that.

Vote: implosion

. No harm in confirming this.

By confirming this, you would essentially be forcing a no lynch... if he isn't lying, and is merely voteless. Furthermore, you KNOW the town isn't going to get behind this. This is just distancing/trying to gain a no lynch in my opinion and I'm reading it as severely anti-town.

ok.

Real posts, when i use the term at least, are posts that move you towards your wincon substantially, and make you a readable player. Scum want to be unreadable, and are more likely to post one liners like you are doing.

What are the risks of trying to kill implosion's ability? Is the worst case scenario really a mafia doc saving the guy? A vigilante would miss getting a kill that night, but he wasn't guaranteed to shoot correctly anyhow. While this treestump ability makes us autolose LyLo, so it is the equivalent of an entire player, guaranteed.

I'm thinking maybe we ought to remove implosion's ability from the game. If you're town, please argue for or against that without appeals to fear, mkay?

The bolded here really reads wrong to me

Magna, the stump ability, specifically, is not very bad early. It makes the controller voteless. It's harmless UNTIL endgame.
and im not reading a mini

Even I skimmed it. Is it that hard to read?
I'll give proof I did: Jack commonly was like "I know 3 town and 3 scum... more on that later" then
"I know 6 town and 3 scum... more on that later"... I'll admit I didn't finish a read, but I wanted to get a gist of how everything would go. It's only ~30 pages IIRC. Your refusal to do that is anti-town.

Also your #15 in iso is IIoA, with a weak vote on a null-situation that lacks reasoning

Your #17 in iso feels like it is pushing parama's post back to bury it in the thread

pops, what would I have to gain by saying "The mod clarified it without me asking him to" instead of "The mod clarified it with me asking him to"? I don't even see why this is a big deal.

Because your many times as likely to ask if you're part of a faction?

I actually COMPLETELY disagree with this. If Parama was scum he would simply pass it to someone who wasn't scum, possibly muh. If Parama was town, he would find someone who was a moron/scum to pass it to without really asking... possibly muh. Null.

You are scum, pops.

I feel strawmanned. I'm arguing that the manner in which Parama received clarification and how he described it sounds suspect. Of course I wouldn't suggest that theme games infrequently require clarification.

Speaking of you being scum, this to me reads as a scumslip.

In your #20 in iso you poison the well, only to refute your own argument. Your last line of it ends up being "not playing the victim here", when you ARE doing that in that post, and you WERE doing that in the post you made RIGHT BEFORE THAT. ARE YOU DENSE? YOU ARE MAKING ME FEEL LIKE FATE. GEEZ.

It's antitown the entire game. Putting off the task of removing it will just make it more difficult :/

treestumping DOES NOT REMOVE SCUMHUNTING OK?

unvote: Parama

for god's sake
really? this far into a game, and an unvote without any explanation!

In his #23 in iso, "diddin is scummy" into him coaching diddin, and a cute comment about how RC is "hard to read"... not for me... I've seen RC as town in a game, and this isn't how he plays. On top of that, your speculation towards him seems forced.

Your #24 is trying to beg the town to excuse you for pushing a case on a null-tell on what you know to be a townie because you're scum

#25 yet again your interaction with diddin with the "reminds me of my own tendencies when i play scum" is like trying to guide a fledgling scumbuddy into the lategame simply based upon the fact that he's a PR you don't want to lose

he then chainsaws wrathchild somewhat with an FoS because he is suspicious of diddin. Sure, guys, lets lynch the noob. So, basically, he is pushing a null case on Parama when anyone would have done what he did regardless of alignment (actually scum would have picked a GOOD player to bomb who was V/LA imo), and is now defending scum by calling his attacker "scummy". Are you afraid to say he's scum? Do you not like to lie. You are scum. I don't mind saying it. I know I'm not, and you could be, and my heart is telling me you are, so I'll say what I feel. You are scum, you are scum, you are scum.

your lack of willingness to use the word scum vs scummy is noted, though most will disagree with me on that mattering. Then you say "but the only way wrathchild would no that is if he were scum and diddin were town, not the reverse" note how he used "no" instead of "know". I'm finding this to be a scumslip, but I'm already tunneling him, so finding his scumslips are ezpz.

[Saint]

VOTE: pops

themanhimself

would you consider revoting pops with me? you voted him in #125...
I also see EtherealCookie as scum, someone you voted in I believe #185... I could get behind you on this, but I am much more worried about pops as he is really active

[Saint]

well... after EC's wall right below mine, I might dismiss my read... I'll respond to that now.

[Saint]

Yeah. EC even failed to quote pops, casually defends diddin, attacks parama...
Vi agrees that EC is a top scumspect too
I'm willing to vote any of these guys, but we really need to force diddin to shoot someone before we do anything


EBWOP: I'm not talking to you, dipshit

[Saint]

Learn to read?

[Saint]

if you'd actually go read #185, bro, you'd see someone VOTED YOU.
maybe you should actually go reference someone............
I am sick, so I apologize for ad hom, I get cranky when I'm sick. I'll try to cut it out.

[Saint]

Vi got onto me already. I have been formally chastised. Sure, it was unnecessary, but so was your lack of going back to said post and seeing what I was referring to or actually reading to see who I was talking to which was very, very evident.

[Saint]

it's not like i didn't bold his name or anything

[Saint]

bill murray is always over the top
get me a cocktail and a golfcart in sweden

[Saint]

Why did I vote as all? Lets say I didn't vote at all. A few pages later, a random person asks me why I haven't voted yet. Ergo, I claim. Easy test to prove that I'm unlynchable: have the person I pass the treestump to confirm it. I don't think this is how a standard treestump works, I think this is just an ability that kunk put in the game that he decided to call treestump for lack of a better name.

lack of voting =/= unlynchable, so you could be pulling the wool over our eyes. Can you concede that point?
I just don't want to write you off as town because of this. Coming out the way you did was pro-town, though.

Yeah, I apologize about the reading bit.

Yeah. EC even failed to quote pops, casually defends diddin, attacks parama...
Vi agrees that EC is a top scumspect too
I'm willing to vote any of these guys, but we really need to force diddin to shoot someone before we do anything

Defend Diddin? Hardly. I messed up when posting, despite the fact I even got to preview, but let me fix it right now. I think Diddin is the second scummiest.

Now that I've explained the Scumday comment, I also find Parama's attack on me rather scummy and baseless for the most part. Take a minute and look at his attack, "Oh Well Muh was town... Let's get the real scum! VOTE: Wrath" followed by the scumday case, which basically states, "Come on guys! Don't you see it? Scum like to do things like that!"

Agreed. It's a terrible reason for voting, just like his reason for passing the bomb to Muh.

At the moment, Parama strikes me as the most scummy; Diddin follows.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in response to I Am Innocent's question, I once again state that it is rather scummy for Diddin to simple state he gets town vibes from Parama without explaining. Now, if you accused me of casually defending WrathChild, I could see where you're coming from, but Diddin? Not at all. And yes, I shall attack Parama, because I believe he is scum and I have rationale to back my vote. That is not a scumtell.

Nothing on Pops? Really? Actually, the two above TheLonging are from Pops. My apologies for the bad quoting once again. So, right now, everything you've said is false besides me attacking Parama. I am doing that, yes. Furthermore, I get a town read from Pops. He is solid on what to do with Diddin and he is actively scum hunting, such as him pointing out Wrath Child's paranoia. I do not like how he says he's okay with that as a daykill so early on, however.

Apology accepted.
However, you are claiming you didn't casually defend diddin?
You didn't quote him multiple times to clarify something for him to someone else?
are you denying that openly?
I will go and quote the exactness of it if you'd like
You may not have defended him as in like "yo, he's not scum", but you helped him.

I'm really hoping you're just being misguided town here, bro, because if you're feeling pops is town your scumdar is off.

If I've misinterpreted anything from your post other than what I've addressed here, blame it on misquoting.



I vote we use the dayvig ability on implosion
wouldn't that get rid of the treestump problem altogether?

[Saint]

bill murray is always over the top
get me a cocktail and a golfcart in sweden

i swear this isn't a breadcrumb!

[Saint]

If I told you, you would replace out as town, and stick around as scum

[Saint]

CKD, dude, please don't replace out

[Saint]

q21

1. Vi reminded me to "not forget to vote" and to edit the top two or three paragraphs, downsizing them to make them more concise like 4 minutes after I gave up on waiting for her to suggest things to change (it had been roughly thirty minutes to an hour, and I had things to be doing) - i'm pretty sure it caused her to blush, lol, you'll have to get back to her on that one.
2. TMH has largely been suspicious of a lot of the people I have. I have also been liking you, and quadz. I had an original town read on thelonging, but where has he been? also with TMH bringing up that recent point, even if flavor, the mod needs to say IT IS FLAVOR if it is not a clue in the op.
--------------------------------
i had a really good laugh at quadz talking about parama
i am actually somewhat satisfied at pops responding to me, and i will feel much more comfortable with lynches after we begin to see ability-passing-correlations. Someone who has good rhetoric and logic skills should clarify exactness on this with Kunk. Definitely not me, i'll misconstrue everything, or at the least be misinterpreted myself.

I have been sort of wishy-washy on Implosion, but I do not feel he is the lynch today, because if he is lying he has given us a free scum lynch on d2, If he says "I passed my ability to Player A" and Player A died, however, we will lynch him for that as well.

@implosion

DO NOT say who you are passing your ability to, because I don't want you to cop out.
If you are confirmed to have not been lying about being a "treestump", though it is HARDLY that... because stumping is a declared action... then sure I'll be ok with you living barring a miscorrelation of ability passing which would indicate you as scum. HOWEVER, I doubt that will be the case. You will either claim that you sent your ability to a player who has died in the night, and then your scumbuddies will go "well, geez, guys, at least we lost a useless treestump ability that helped mafia!" when in fact it was contrived. Sorry to go off on a WIFOM rant, but I'm just letting you know that regardless of whether or not the rest of the thread are going to, I'm going to hold you accountable on d2 to see if your "ability" is confirmed.

I have not liked Narsis
If he is town, he needs to post in a more town-manner.
He is not doing so, and I feel is hypocritical

unvote pops;

VOTE: narsis

[Saint]

p.s. I would also be happy voting EC or AntB

[Saint]

your activity level is definitely adequate
read narsis or helghast in iso
there are two players who have YET TO POST
mafiascum deadlines are different than teamliquid or most other mafia websites in that the cycles last FOREVER

basically, take your time, wrathchild. Considering the terminology that you're using, though, I would ask for you to discontinue playing the noob card. Thanks in advance!

[Saint]

you won't be able to give it away unless you are scum
scum will totally kill you if you are town to get rid of that ability

[Saint]

Never mind then. Still works if there is a doc or something on me though.

No doc is going to protect you
if a doc would protect you he is an idiot
The town is going to vote on who you shoot if I have any say about it

[Saint]

p.s. I would also be happy voting EC or AntB

Your happy to vote me, yet have made no mention of me or aired any suspicions? The post I've quoted is the only one that contains my name in it.

FoS Saint

FoS me for me being willing to lynch you?
Isn't that similar to OMGUS a little bit?
you're a great player!

[Saint]

Well, RC, I like your responses. Very valid.
I do have limited meta on you.
I'm glad you admit your post lacked direction.
I'd like to see a list of people you find scummy.

[Saint]

I had a big post to respond to AntB, but I guess it is irrelevant!

My 2 cents...Implosion had no reason to out the power that he did other than in town interest.

Scum would know they would be a target D1/N1 based on trying to get this anti town role out of the game.

Scum would not lie about the power because they know a town would get the role and verify D2 (unless they and the power were DK'd or NK'd).

Scum Implosion would have kept this power quiet and just subtly passed it on N1.

Town Implosion would have brought this up to the group D1.

The biggest problem now though is getting rid of this power. Based on above, I don't want to get rid of this power on a player that is probably a townie. But can we afford to wait, esp if Diddin is NK'd and his power lost to the void (or whatever happens to it)?

I am sure we have some protection role(s), and I would think that they would consider protecting Diddin with a 50% to 75% likelihood.

PS - Still out of state with family for the holidays, can hopefully chip in more after the new year.

agree with you on the pro-townness of that action
My plan in relation to this action is to pass it on to a VI-town player
Whoever Implosion determines is both pro-town and VI

benefits of this
- Scum can't push lynch on said VI
- VI loses vote, can't indirectly hurt town with bad voting

reasons, for once, it's not me
- I am improving my game
- Vi is in the Hydra with me, so auto-not-VI this game

So, basically, either pass it to scum or policy-pass it imo

Never mind then. Still works if there is a doc or something on me though.

No doc is going to protect you
if a doc would protect you he is an idiot
The town is going to vote on who you shoot if I have any say about it

I hope to god this is Furcolow who posted this.

A doc protect would insure I pass off my dayvig power tonight. Why is a doc an idiot for protecting me?

Also we've already decided to vote on who I shoot.

The only way this makes sense is if you think I'm one-shot, in which case you're seriously blind.

pops has gotten more protown. AntB hasn't. HoSing someone for being a newb, then throwing around a ton of suspicion on Sait while keeping a vote on Narsis for voting for gut. Earlier he FoS's Saint for ...swearing and randomly posting... yeah.

I like this post from diddin
+town points

This also brings me to the next point I wanted to address, too!
We need to bring up who diddin should shoot
I would rather see a vig hit on Narsis or EC than WraithChild
RedCoyote, despite being on a few people's town list, is someone else I wouldn't mind shot because of his post #84. I don't feel he is posting as he does as town. At one point, it should even be considered a slip I picked up on in his post #84 in that it completely lacked direction and was mere responses to players. I also felt like it lacked a conclusion/substance and as such I'm fairly certain if shot he would flip scum.

[Saint]

Diddin, if you shoot WC without at least 10 or more people saying "go for it" that you quote in a post, I am going to push your lynch so hard.

[Saint]

Never mind then. Still works if there is a doc or something on me though.

No doc is going to protect you
if a doc would protect you he is an idiot
The town is going to vote on who you shoot if I have any say about it

I actually have to take back what I said here. Doc protection might be the best thing that could happen, but I don't want anything directed in case of them having a role that can stalk or intercept, or something we simply don't understand yet. Playing slow and cautiously is the best in this setup, as we will get to see who is not scum with who based upon the passing of abilities and who dies.

Me saying "WE AS A TOWN ARE DIRECTING YOUR KILL", themanhimself, is "protecting one of my buddies with a threat of retribution"? Wouldn't this imply:
1) I have buddies
a. I am town, so my buddies are unknown to me
b. if I was scum, would you expect to "catch me" with this ploy? I don't believe something like this would work. Where is this flak coming from? I had been reading you as town, but I'm not understanding you misinterpreting me. I see scum going for my lynch very often, as I am an easy mislynch typically, but with Vi in the hydra coaching me this is less so.
2) I would act anti-town through said retribution
a. this implies we would need retribution, which means diddin would be acting against the town's wishes, and would be anti-town and probable scum
b. in fact, wanting a general consensus from the uninformed majority is pro-town, bro

this leads me on to MoI's recent postings, which I feel the need to address. I agree with many of his reads, and am nearly willing to push for pops hardcore. I also like themanhimself's vote on EC. I'd be happy lynching either of these, or Narsis, who has been generally posting no content whatsoever, or what little content he has posted hasn't been worth a fuck.

MoI, we don't need to hold diddin accountable through getting rid of him as scum NOW. Of course I want to medic protect/doctor save him from vigs/hits(if he's actually town

, on the off chance) to keep the ability alive... although he said it is possibly limited? If there is only 1 kill, and he wastes it/uses it on town, what's the use in the ability anyways? where the ability has to pass to town, if he's scum, who is to say they won't pass it to their hit? I will want to know who he passed it to, and if the person ends up dying then he will end up frying. I really hope this doesn't happen, and I am actually somewhat leaning on him being town. Kind of neutral on him, but he has helped his image recently with me as opposed to hurting it. I am just worried that he will end up dead, or the person he passes his ability to will.

Typically when people have "passed their ability to a dead player" they are just looking for an easy out.
I don't care to lynch diddin on d2 or d3 if we find out on d3 that he has passed his ability incorrectly, or in the d2 scenario if he has acted against the town's wishes.

I have generally not had success with lynching lurkers d1, as they are easy targets for scumpushing just as much as VIs like myself are. For this reasoning, and anything I have said previously... which I feel like my statements have changes little... I am very willing to lynch pops/ec/helghast as opposed to someone like Narsis who I feel is more apt to be vig bait.

town imo:
MoI - agree with his reads
CKD - posting similar to his town meta from MoHO
Q21 - very pro-town posting
Lateralus22 - based upon thelonging, who was my first town read (ask Vi)

proposed target:
and I had to really think about this one... but helghast
I feel like he has been posting fluff
He has a post that incriminates WC, who he could be trying to baby
I went to see votes on him, and I'm happy to see pops... I hope he doesn't jump off if it gets wagonned... that would just be

too easy

like I said in (i believe it was #372? just saw Vi reference it.. wait no it'd have to be previous to that.. let me check... well, I can't find it, nm.

It's 8am and I haven't been to bed. Real life has been hectic.

I'll cut this short, but I like MoI recently...

a lot
vote to dayvig: narsis
unvote

VOTE: helghast

[Saint]

Vi fos ec and tmh, she may verify on one, or both. I fos darla blue eyes and hellghast

[Saint]

I don't see ec as vig bait if he is town. Vig a noob or hang diddin.

[Saint]

quadz, AntB is someone I had discussed with Vi.
It felt like it was public knowledge more than it was.
I am sorry that I was wrong about that, and that is why I am not pushing a wagon and trying to spotlight this game.
I am merely providing a wise opinion and FoS. I don't mind you doing the same to me here whatsoever.

StrangerCoug, I like how you at least attempt to understand me in your post nearing 500
thanks.

[Saint]

OK, I'm completely caught up.
I would be happy lynching any of the people I have aforementioned, with pops added to the list.
I feel like a doctor-protected-semi-confirmed-town MoI would be very beneficial to the town on D2
Here's to hoping scum didn't get the doctor ability~ (it is likely in town hands! here here.)

I am actually going to

unvote; vote: pops

before pops has the time to deter the wagon on his scumbuddy helghast who is merely a lurker scum who doesn't care as much

[Saint]

Red, Directing the doctor is more town or null imo , and is lynch diddin or wc that bad? Ppl are accusing, and I understand pressure as town is good.

[Saint]

Vig wc

[Saint]

Pops wc scum

[Saint]

Red, Directing the doctor is more town or null imo , and is lynch diddin or wc that bad? Ppl are accusing, and I understand pressure as town is good.

Have you considered the possibility of a Mafia roleblocker at all? If there is one and the Mafia finds out who the doctor is, they may put the doctor under scrutiny by keeping roleblocking him or her while killing off the people to whom he or she is directed. Also, I haven't seen it, but according to the Wiki we may also run into a "macho" version of a role (i.e. one that cannot be doc-protected).

In the cyclical nature of this game, I am not sure what the scum have.

I was busy like hell today as I think I posted a while back.

I'm vigging Helghast TOMORROW unless there are serious reasons why I shouldn't. It provides more connections than if I were to shoot WC (powerrox adamantly defending him, Saint HEAVILY attacking WC last minute)

I would rather see a vig hit on Narsis or EC than WraithChild

Vig wc

Direct Contradiction. I say hang him.

Unvote, Vote: Saint

this is not a direct contradiction as the game flows
i was being pressured of buddying with the above comment, so that is why i even posted that
are you dense?
I am basically saying "I don't really care, because I don't know his alignment"

Quit stalling, diddin.

q21, sorry. I admit I skimmed;

I'm a bad townie

. I'm also a hypocrite in the sense that I build walls but get upset when I have to read other people's walls. To compensate, I don't usually expect people to read mine (except for what I've addressed to them).

is that a claim?

MOI

I have had people try to make associations between me and WC
I have had a person try to make associations with me between me and diddin
I was merely stating that as far as I know, they are scum.

[Saint]

vote: TMH

for having me as his #1 suspect, yet voting someone who is not his #1 suspect
flawed logic
plus im town

[Saint]

also, quadz, scummy=/=scum
you must be reading me incorrectly
if there's anything i can verify for you, go right ahead
i don't believe i've even been voted this game, and i've been FoSed 4 times now. Every time, except for TMH, has lacked any reasoning.
TMH apologized for "his wall" which was really just entirely made up of one liners responding to null points whenever a wagon was put on him. I see that as scum forced to fake activity and wall posting.

[Saint]

So is the main case people have against me the fact that I brought up a no lynch? Because I think that's being really over exaggerated. I brought it up as an idea that had pros and cons and I admitted as much. I honestly saw it as something to consider, I didn't push for it, I didn't vote for it nor did I try to distance myself from it. I said maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea and left it at that.

@Saint- I forgot I was voting at all, UNVOTE: nhammen, VOTE: Saint.

likely story
you must be scum
town have no reason to not follow their votes

he then unvotes, votes powerrox
darla follow
hello scumteam

[Saint]

*s

[Saint]

i was already voting you, before that, hello not reading

furthermore, it's ON THIS PAGE LOL

[Saint]

You could just, y'know, ask me

[Saint]

The clarification I believe that needs to be resolves can be resolved if you change my second comma to a period in my aforementioned statement not right above this one

[Saint]

Also, I haven't talked to Vi in about 2-3 days, so sorry for my posting style slipping a little.
She was for the Helghast vig, but I was opposed to it.
I wanted a vig on someone I felt Diddin had ties with, that would help to judge his alignment.

[Saint]

unvote;
vote: powerrox93

I'm not liking the TMH wagon
I'm suspicious of Darla as well

[Saint]

@

MoI: What are your thoughts on Diddin?

[Saint]

I'm on #917, but

DARLA

why did you not protect MoI if you had a doctor ability with him being pro-town and likely to be hit? I'm about to vote you for not protecting him.

Who are you claiming to have protected?
You also needed to claim you passed an ability on, not what it was

I passed an ability on myself, but I'm not going to say to who or what it was...

I agree with Parama. I feel if we take the time to sort this out we can begin to have a scumteam emerge and begin to right off who is partnered with who. Do you all REALLY care about abilities, or do you care about winning the damn game? Nothing would make me happier than a scumlynch, and the way to get one is if the entire town isn't living scared and is actually making people accountable for their actions. I for one wouldn't mind losing a made up ability darla is claiming to have passed on which I find to be bullshit and am a hair away from voting over...

claim who you protected, or i'm going to be voting you

[Saint]

nhammen, can you refrain from posting quotes that are like 10 weeks old? (exaggeration!)

mod

prod darla, I had a very relevant question for her to answer, and I don't want her dodging it
if she does not claim who she protected with her ability last night, we need to lynch her
if she did not protect MoI, what the hell, why not? He was the leader of the town, and he is dead.

[Saint]

CKD's 929 is a bit... heated?

mod

, care to ask him to tone it down? I don't want that directed towards me, and risking myself a modkill, and CKD doesn't like me... so please get him to refrain from the attitude/tone. Thanks!

I am not really sure to blame anyone for powerrox's play being idiotic, but this whole pops argument definitely is someone i'll be looking at. At first I was suspicious of both him and implosion, but we'll see how the ability passing plays out on d3. I suspect one of them is town at the least, and I don't want to lose either of them if they're town because of how active and good they seem.

SEEMING

town and being town are two different stories. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these was the active scum.

nhammen, also, i just noticed your whole "antb" thing...
You realize I am playing with someone who is giving me advice? I had talked about AntB in my quicktime with my hydra-partner, and I assumed I had mentioned it. I felt like he was dodgy, but it turned out he was just a townie. Sorry to double post, guys, and I'm going out right now in my Santa Fe to a friends... I'll be possibly on, on my phone, but it depends on what I'm getting into.
I'm not saying "I don't view you as town", nhammen, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.
I have accrued what, 1 vote? The reasoning noone is voting me is because the game has a good read on me, I have been scumhunting, and my posting has been beneficial for the town. If it wasn't for MoI being an amazing player, and him being so suspicious of bunnylover, I myself may have been victim of that lynch, and then we would have lost an ability from the game... Losing the ability may have been a good or bad thing, I'm not sure, we'll see on day 3 won't we!

Quick note on Darla, FoS for sure until you answer me, because I don't see why you didn't out that!

-HOWEVER-

I am DEFINITELY voting bunnylover, though, as he claimed an ability he CANT have received from MoI. What, did MoI pass that along from the grave?
VOTE: : bunnylover

MoI = town, died before abilities are passed
bunnylover = claimed to have received an ability from a player who died
bunnylover = troll/scum

lynch lynch lynch

[Saint]

props to Vi for catching that slip, guys

[Saint]

a.k.a. keep passing the hot potato to bunnylover?

[Saint]

This slot has not received the Virus, but presumably that's because of the mod's schedule. (cut: this is no longer true)

Switching off Furcautopilot because there's no reason for me to sit around and let this slot die. Offhand the best person to take it is Parama, since he wants to die anyway <_< Plus I'm p. sure Wrathchild is Town getting framed.

The other good targets IMO (note that Furcolow's views are not my own and I haven't pressed my views on Furcolow) are:
*nhammen (rep. EtherealCookie)
*popsofctown
*Bunnylover
roughly in order of preference. I've wanted those first two to die, like, all game and no time is too soon.

Where did RedCoyote go? I really want to list him third or fourth but I can't remember anything he's done recently.

Lateralus and ckd are also people of interest - the former for going after TMH (whose wagon I didn't get), and the latter for possibly slipping and being whinier than helpful (nice attempt to appeal to my meta though).

I've only kept a loose eye on the thread because I'm supposed to be helping Furc first and foremost, but those are the reads I've picked up along the way.

Much as I'd love the chance to pass the potato to nhammen or pops really the Virus ability is only good for swatting down nonparticipants who can't (or don't want to) pass it away, so it's going to Parama. Furc can argue with me over this later when he gets back.

To answer your next question, no, I won't post more. That would defeat the purpose.

[Saint]

I spazzed and passed it to darla

[Saint]

This slot has not received the Virus, but presumably that's because of the mod's schedule. (cut: this is no longer true)

Switching off Furcautopilot because there's no reason for me to sit around and let this slot die. Offhand the best person to take it is Parama, since he wants to die anyway <_<

The hell? Didn't we make a big fuss early today about it

NOT

being good to pass it to Parama for wanting to die?

Must have missed it.

Really though - because the player has to actually SEE that they have the Virus (as in pick up the PM) and THEN decide to do nothing for 75 posts, the only people who wouldn't pass it off are people who are suicidal (Parama) or people who don't understand what "death" means (muh). It's in nobody's best interest to keep it except people who are actively willing to drag the game down and want out.

The other option is to keep passing it around forever, which is annoying for everyone and tells us nothing because it CAN be passed between scumpartners.

Cut: Or maybe Furcolow's decision will override my own, since I didn't get a message confirmation that I know of. Whatever.

[Saint]

i passed the virus to nhammen
lets make 75 posts really quickly so we can confirm my slot is town

[Saint]

i am NOT caught up, although i've read page 46 (so maybe I am?)
i expected the bomb to die with darla, honestly, and her to be scum
her recent post doesn't convince me that she is not blue, but Vi has convinced me to wait to d3 to push her if noone gets doctor

Vi doesn't like nhammen, Vi has great reads usually, so lets let the virus be a town kill and get posts out there

[Saint]

p.s. keep in mind it's 75 posts AFTER the mod notifies the person, although they might not pick up their PM

me being passed the virus by 2 people lowers the chance i'm scum if it can't be passed between factions
i know that point has been hit, but can someone clarify that for me? can it be?

[Saint]

I'd like Vi to explain why he believes A) Wrath is framed Town, and B) why these three (including myself) are "good targets". Unless he sees that as being beyond what he is supposed to be doing in this game. (If I am understandng the intent of this hydra correctly)

I said it, so I can be held accountable for it.

I'm not going to be able to get a response out tonight though. Sorry

[Saint]

lets let the virus be a town kill

THE HELL!?

lets use it democratically to lynch scum
are you seriously considering that a slip?
don't even start mudslinging and misrepresentation, or I will accuse you of slander. You are borderline for it here, and if you're scum, you're asking for it.

Ok I seriously think Saint should die <_<.
The virus can be passed between anyone, regardless of alignement.

On what grounds?

Wow, DBE sent me the virus, in spite of never having indicated suspicion of me, iirc

She did voice a little bit of suspicion of you in her ISO 8, but didn't follow up on it. In fact, that's the only time she mentions you. I think we have a Mafiosa, and her name is DBE.

UNVOTE: Bunnylover
VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

Yeah, good evidence. Also, thanks for doing the background check on Darla. Seems to imply to me that if one of you is scum, the other isn't.

You know if Diddin indeed has the Bus Driver Ability, that he cannot be scum teammates with TMH, right?

You know that we can be wrong either way. We can't assume that our reads are correct. That way leads to confirmation bias. So yes, both are scummy, but only one can be scum. We have ideas and hypotheses about which one, but we can't know until a flip. So what are you saying here, Innocent?

I’m liking LMP’s case on Darla more and more as I read it… hm.

Prama too. After he came back and pretty much said "I can't scum hunt without an ability!!!"

When was this, exactly? I don’t recall him saying anything resembling that.

Agree with both of these statements in post 1100, but I don't think I agree with the repeated Parama bashing that occurs later in this post, except the argument int the following quote:

Parama’s reread post (898) is basically completely useless:
First, he says q21 should die based on post count. This is not a bad point, though the reaction is rather strong.
Second, he makes a useless comment about TL and how scummy he is / how his replacement is confirmed town (which, btw, he never explained.)
Then, he points out 7 quotes/posts. 3 of them hadn’t been mentioned before, 2 of them were “hey go town this guy’s dead,” and 2 of them had been thoroughly discussed before. The 3 new things he mentioned (pops’ quote, “let’s play the passive game” and “This just looks so fake”) have no further explanation about them. He posts those quotes, and that’s it.
He also mentioned being unsure about pops’ push on muh (or something? I’m not even sure, actually.) and me being boneheaded and obsessive about little things (with no examples).
Then comes a scumlist, and a declaration of 75% accuracy. (3 of the 4 people on his list are apparently scum. Impressive for someone whose scumhunting is more or less nonexistent. Seriously, look at his ISO. The post I’m talking about now is the closest thing to scumhunting he’s got.)
I guess he’s still in the process of rereading the rest, like he said he would. Or maybe he’s not. Y’know. Whatev.

Q21's 897 sucked.

Why does it suck, exactly?

Yeah, I don't see a problem with that post.

Overall, Darla sucks, diddin still sucks, Nero still sucks, WC sucks less, nhammen doesn't suck (though I'm ready for something other than catch-up posts), Parama still sucks, IAI doesn't suck, Bunny sucks, TMH sucks a LOT.

Agree about Darla, diddin, Nero, and WC (except for the less part). Disagree about Parama and Bunny. Agree about TMH. Also, something is creeping me out about how you have frequently stated I am town or have defended me. It's like an ex-girlfriend repeatedly trying to get back together. And in fast moving games, I tend to use catchup posts frequently. You'll just have to deal with that.

Darla is scum btw, might give an explanation later.

Please do that now.


Bunny why is your brain picking Saint over Darla?

Reminding players to answer these.

Hrm.... so I'm guessing there's an SK? Either that or a vig but if there's a vig the ability probably cycles so I don't know that it's much use trying to get anything from that.

Why are you guessing there's an SK? What about another ability? What about multiple scumteams? Why even speculate on this at all unless you have knowledge that I don't have.

I never saw this. Nice catch.

@q21 #1128: This case against DBE, in combination with everything else, is quite compelling.

Bunnylover, WC, and Darla are probably the best three choices for the bomb right now.

I do not advocate Diddin or Saint. My gut tells me people would love to have Saint (or should I say Vi) out of this game.

If I am right about pops being scum, quadz is a possible teammate. Something to keep an eye on.

I disagree about Bunny, but agree about all of the rest. The buddying that quadz is doing may be nothing, or it may be another sign of what you are suggesting. So my three suggested kills for today are DBE, WC, and Nero Cain. Of these three, Nero has the fewest connections, so I would like him to be the lynch after the other two are taken out by Virus and Daykill.

Well, let's say that we decide to wait and lynch theman. Okay. Worst case scenario.

Darla gets stuck with the Virus and flips town.
theman shoots WC and flips town.
We lynch Saint and he flips town.
Then two more town deaths at night. That's five more townies dead.

I'm not saying this will all happen if we don't go after diddin now, but I am saying we shouldn't spare diddin if we think he's scum just because we want to get a town confirmation from lynching theman tomorrow. We're already on a bad footing. That said, if a majority of the town thinks diddin is honestly not a good lynch, then that's a completely different story. I'll build a case against him with pleasure.

I feel that there is more of a case against tmh than diddin. And since we pretty much know that they can't both be scum (although they could be lying about the ability), I'm more inclined towards a tmh lynch tomorrow. Also, why did you list Saint for the lynch?

I'm with RC; let's flip it, and lynch diddin today, since we can't lynch TMH cause of his ability. Which actually reminds me: does no one else find it suspicious that diddin is still alive today, even though he held the dayvig power? Cause I do.

tmh being scum would explain that.

Actually, this is a really good point. I would have assumed that since the virus had gone off D1, that it was simply gone, and the dayvig power was free to use for the rest of the game. It coming back today was unexpected, and I assume it would have been unexpected for TMH as well... well said, IAI.

Agree here.

Well it appears that we have come to an agreement on who should hold the bomb between 3 people.
Myself (although I disagree on this lol).
Saint (Pefectly fine with this).
DBE (Not really seeing a reason not to keep the virus on him/her).
Other then these three people, no one name is mentioned.
We need to keep the virus between these three people.
If for some reason another person gets the virus, the previous owner should either be day kill by the vig or lynch as their is only two reason why you wouldn't keep the bomb on these three.

I disagree about you and Saint. My three are listed above.

i passed the virus to nhammen
lets make 75 posts really quickly so we can confirm my slot is town

It was established early on D1 that the Virus cannot confirm alignment. The mod was asked about this.

her recent post doesn't convince me that she is not blue, but Vi has convinced me to wait to d3 to push her if noone gets doctor

I have some role information from my role last night related to this. I'm not sure if I should claim it now, or wait to claim tomorrow to hopefully catch someone in a trap. Just letting you know, there is something you are missing from the picture.

And what is it exactly I'm missing?
I'd like to claim #3, for the record, but I am not claiming my recipient.
Also, why do you have interest in me yet interest for people who are interested in lynching my slot and it flipping town? Just the sheer ignorance of imagining a town flip seems ridiculous. Let's imagine a scum one.

I disagree with my hydra's read on you recently. Your posting feels pretty pro-town. Is that how you play as scum? If you're that good as scum, I would consider lynching you based upon your unreadability.

[Saint]

@nhamm: Thanks for reminding me of that question, I missed it lol.
@Pops: I think its because I believe Saint is scum, while on DBE I don't believe it yet. Would I cry if DBE dies, no I wouldn't.
@I am Innocent: 3) Someone Else.

I'd like reasoning for this
Are you familiar with my play?
Do you realize I go the extra mile as town?
Are you familiar with my vehement scum-meta and easy-readability?

I am by far NOT a policy lynch, and you WILL NOT gain any traction on this.
I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY I'M POSTING THIS!

[Saint]

I just realized if there are six scum, and a mishit on a vig, and darla dying town with a ML we might even be at lylo tomorrow

i'm hoping for 5 scum, which seems likelier, though
we don't have as many ML as you would think considering misvigs and this damn virus

[Saint]

p.s. darla, if you are town, please for the love of god pass it to your utmost lurking-scum-read

[Saint]

PASS IT TO SOMEONE WHO YOU FIND TO BE LURKING SCUM WHO WILL DIE BY IT
END OF STORY

[Saint]

Frick, I'm OCDing myself into this game.

Someone tell me what's wrong with this picture.
*Parama is being called Extremely Town by everyone. (okay, what's wrong other than that)
*DBE claims to have passed the Doctor to Parama.
*Parama wants to die Today, specifically by the Virus.

Also, the Virus PM is confusingly worded and I do not think there is a set upper limit on posts before it explodes regardless of how long someone has held it.
It should only explode after the number of posts listed IF it's not handed off.
I definitely believe that the number of posts between message retrieval and potato handoff are counted off of the total timer - when we got it the timer was at 75.
And it CAN be passed between scumpartners. For some reason I'm not sure if that was mentioned at all during the hoopla D1.

[Saint]

I shouldn't be doing this (RL-wise) but I may as well.
I'm reading through the game so hopefully I don't miss anything. Currently up to Page 10.

The digest of the reads so far looks like this...

SCUM

*EtherealCookie - Posts don't seem genuine and tend to be passive. Nothing that gives me second thoughts about his alignment like several others below him I found more frustratingly scummy.
*RedCoyote - Makes sensible posts but they say tend to say nothing useful. First post looks like it would be made by scum.
*popsofctown - Every now and then he posts something that ISN'T fluff/hyperfocused on playing the setup and looks Town-motivated. It scares me every time. But it's just enough to make me not put him on the autolynch list, even though I'm really very curious about how he apparently put a lot of thought into the game mechanics for some reason but didn't want to look at how they worked in the previous game.
*I Am Innocent - His posts so far definitely give a "skilled" vibe but for the most part they don't actually help.
*WrathChild - Purely reactionary posts and nothing that looks particularly Town.
*TheLonging - Right in the middle of people I'd want to lynch for doing nothing either way for me. But he's quite obnoxious.
*diddin - Has some of the worst reasoning skillz ever but his interest in game balance knowing his alignment seems like something Town would be more likely to do.
*curiouskarmadog - Post 74 looks solidly Town-motivated, but then he leaves and doesn't come back until someone calls his name.
*Nero Cain - Your guess is as good as mine. Slightly Townish.
*Narsis - What he's posted so far seems fairly Townish actually, but it's reserved.
*themanhimself - He reads more like an easy target than scummily motivated.
*quadz - Not extremely convinced yet but his willingness to push Parama on a scumslip in particular looks Townish.
*q21 - Only one post so far, but it was a good one. We need more.
*implosion - just seems obvious all the way around
*Parama - Yet it's like he's going so far out of his way to be scummy.

TOWN

I don't really support the Darla bomb, but with Parama looking Town I'm not sure who else would take it. I believe the idea was to use it to get rid of anti-Town abilities, but at the same time Moai made a good point about keeping those abilities around as long as possible.

I'm always serious. Name one time in this thread when I have not been dead serious.

All of your posts about people relying on the wiki. What do I win.

[Saint]

I didn't want to read the old game because I have all the rules I need to game the setup in this game's OP. I don't want to see how they gamed the setup in that (very, very different) mini, because I believe I can figure out the dominant strategy for this game without any help.

If I was a different mood when it came up I might've looked at it though, tbh.

I'm more willing to buy vegetarian food than that statement.

[Saint]

Nothing. You failed to follow instructions, and named several times I haven't been serious rather than one.


I didn't want to read the old game because I have all the rules I need to game the setup in this game's OP. I don't want to see how they gamed the setup in that (very, very different) mini, because I believe I can figure out the dominant strategy for this game without any help.

If I was a different mood when it came up I might've looked at it though, tbh.

you flip flop even with yourself?
i bet WIFOM

really

fucks with you

[Saint]

CKD, assuming both you and TMH make it to the end of D2, are you going to send the Tree Stump to him N2?

@ everyone else, please do not send any pro town power roles to TMH. No excuses on his death tomorrow.

@ everyone else, is it more important to get rid of the bus ability tomorrow, or is it better to confirm that it is a standard ability?***

***Seems like the debate is that maybe this is an ability that can be passed between scum. I don't see why any night abilities would be so, esp this. Otherwise they would just pass it back and forth and steal abilities without ever telling us about the bus driving ability even existing.

Does not make sense and I think the doubt that TMH is trying to put in our heads is to take down a current suspicious townie (but future confirmed townie) with him now.

IF there is a bus driver ability, of course I want it gone
it adds too many variables in for us to understand as a town

HOWEVER, I am not sure that Diddin didn't just pass a pro-town ability to a dead slot.

[Saint]

You guys shoot whoever you want. I can't find scum in this game and I just give up. Well I can't totally give up, I've got a duty to play to my wincon, but I am going to take a break. I've read too many players wrong this game, I need some time to develop a new angle on this game. Or more information.

If anyone but one of these three players gets lynched, I am breaking my own rule and replacing out.

If you're not here to respect your commitment and play to your wincon, leave now. I don't want to play with someone like you.

Still trying to find time to reread (and I'm hesitant to jump on bandwagons because of it in spite of how frustrating it is to read recent developments) but I think this just became relevant.

I didn't have a scum read on themanhimself before. Shooting someone who wasn't just heavily crumbed as Doctor, but if I'm not mistaken DBE actually outright

said

Parama had the Doc ability was indeed short-sighted to say the least, and if tmh IS scum then we're in a no-win situation (well, we win if it means no more of this daykill silliness), but if tmh is NOT scum then we have no reason to autolynch him. We've been basically policy lynching all game and it hasn't gotten us anywhere, and I'm very confident that that trend will continue.

Aside from recent developments, someone please tell me why everyone wanted tmh dead before; because I don't remember it, I haven't read up to the tmh hate thus far, and in the QT I mentioned that I didn't understand the wagon while it was ongoing.

Also - stop saying this game sucks and that you're going to replace out. It's painful to be a mod and watch your player list say things like that, plus everyone is already well aware that the situation we're in is ungodly bad, plus it just drags Town morale down and makes everyone even MORE ineffectual than ever before.

I should be able to progress farther in my reading this morning. I apologize for life.

[Saint]

in the QT I mentioned that I didn't understand the wagon while it was ongoing.

Wait a minute, what QT?

Hydra QT, obv.

[Saint]

Read up to Page 20. Current standings:

SCUM

*EtherealCookie - The only thing he said in this post range that I noted (278, contrasted with Town-diddin's 277) rubbed me wrong because he was pointing out his superior knowledge of game mechanics (which I'm quite sure scum would know more about), so.
*RedCoyote - The second-biggest active lurker in the game. There was one time when he said something that made me consider that he might be looking from a pro-Town motivation, but most of his posts are just walls that don't go anywhere, don't do anything, and uphold the status quo.
*TheLonging/Lateralus22 - Has shot up to be one of my biggest suspects. The vast majority of Lat's posts have reinforced what I thought were the most scummy positions available (for instance, 344 doesn't seem trustworthy now that we know Helghast's alignment).
*I Am Innocent - This is the biggest active lurker in the game, right here. I feel like he only posts when he can post about a specific subject and look good doing it.
*popsofctown - pops has been one of the biggest contributors to the game so far, and I can still count the number of posts I like on one hand. However, there are still a few glimpses of Town motivation (which I may be giving him too much credit for). Has a very strange relationship with RedCoyote and I Am Innocent; they've both done awkward distancing and association.
*LynchMePlz - Only shows up around Page 20 and pushes WrathChild in a scummy way (as in, like he's already decided he wants WC to die).
*quadz - quadz was absent before, but the tl;dr of his catch-up post on Page 20 pretty much says to lynch and/or vig a long list of people - all of whom I'm willing to buy are Town. This positioning on the list might be swayed by recent posts.
*q21 - Sorry, my previous Town read on q21 went out the window with his painfully mediocre 263. He hasn't posted anything else of interest in this range, so.
|<gap>|
*diddin - The way he's using his daykill is pro-Town, but saying he refuses to Vig EC and reeeeeally wanting to vote WC makes me have misgivings.
*themanhimself - His knack for finding slips and pushing them seems Townish, even if he comes out with the wrong responses. In recent news, the fact that he's not done trying to find things to call out - and the fact that he had the sense of fair play to give diddin his Bus Driver ability - speaks in his favor, I think.
*Nero Cain - Crazy as anything and not always on the right track but I don't really detect any malice in his posts.
*StrangerCoug - Hasn't said anything much up to this point but I distinctly remember having a Town read on him from later, so he goes here.
*WrathChild - Either he's this conniving scum hiding his experience and implicitly playing the newb card EXTREMELY well, or he's very honest and Town.
*curiouskarmadog - Having read through his slip, I don't think it's a big deal. He's dropped much larger Town-tells.
*implosion - With Parama gone implosion is now the Towniest Townie in the game.

TOWN

For Today, I would highly recommend against shooting, lynching, etc. anyone in the lower tier. I don't think the last three on the list, at least, should die at all. On the other hand, I'm willing to bet that at least two of the top four are scum, and that there is at most one scum in the bottom tier.

@MOD: Do the scum have daytalk?

Cut by LMP: Oh yes I like your position on this list.

[Saint]

Vi, you have read up to page 20, and you are recommending lynches and protections from lynches based on that? No, it does not work that way buddy. Catch up and then you can start making some recommendations.

Oh, but yes it does work that way.

I skipped ahead just for you, and I'm willing to buy some temporary leave due to other games, but from December 22 all the way to January 6 (two weeks)? And you were literally incapable of posting anything convincing until then?

And perhaps more pressingly... you're casting doubt on ALL of my reads because YOU don't feel your description was accurate? No, please, enlighten me. Tell me how I'm wrong on the others.

[Saint]

Vi, you have read up to page 20, and you are recommending lynches and protections from lynches based on that? No, it does not work that way buddy. Catch up and then you can start making some recommendations.

Oh, but yes it does work that way.

I skipped ahead just for you, and I'm willing to buy some temporary leave due to other games, but from December 22 all the way to January 6 (two weeks)? And you were literally incapable of posting anything convincing until then?

And perhaps more pressingly... you're casting doubt on ALL of my reads because YOU don't feel your description was accurate? No, please, enlighten me. Tell me how I'm wrong on the others.

And while you're here... I distinctly remember reading recently that you wanted Saint (read, ME) out of the game. Yet if I'm not mistaken, you said this slot was a Town read both before and after that statement. Really?

[Saint]

I skipped ahead just for you, and I'm willing to buy some temporary leave due to other games, but from December 22 all the way to January 6 (two weeks)? And you were literally incapable of posting anything convincing until then?

There was a couple of little holidays that fell in here, you might have heard of them. They're called Christmas and New Years. Some of us weren't available for mafia during that time.

For instance, you point out that "Only shows up around Page 20", as though there is a scummy reason for this, when the simple truth is that I was V/LA over that time, and had announced it clearly to the mod and in the thread.

And you'll notice that's not the excuse IAI gave, but thanks for stepping up to bat for him.

Cut.

"Only shows up around Page 20" more referred to a lack of content to go on up to that point.
Now that I have more, rest assured I don't think differently.

My gut tells me

people

would love to have Saint (or should I say Vi) out of this game.

That's not the word I saw before. I'm sorry v.v

[Saint]

Now at Page 30. Current standings:

SCUM

*RedCoyote - No change. Same lack of content, different ten pages. Not sure if there's a RC/quadz connection in 655.
*q21 - Was kind enough to commit a personal scumtell. He only seems to show up to keep pushing the drama around; I'm looking for his posts as they come and each time I'm like "is that it?". He also managed to take E-Cookie from his top scumspect to his fifth behind four of my Town reads in 546.
*LynchMePlz - After ten pages the only thing LMP has done is wagon people shamelessly with no reasons given on bad wagons. Is nobody going to say anything about this?
*TheLonging/Lateralus22 - It seems like whenever a VI-type posts, Lat is always there with an easy follow-up question. Each time he does something that looks Townish (i.e. expressing genuine confusion about WC in 531), he immediately kills it (in 533, and later when he retracts that read and forces a post like 559 when it's obvious what WC meant in 558).
*quadz - Advocating what amounts to a policy lynch on Powerrox is terrible and his posts overall just look like they're skirting by. 702 is a weak reason to have a scumread on Saint.
*popsofctown - Makes two of the WORST votes on Powerrox (and it's hard to make bad votes for Powerrox). Spamposts are spamposts and unhelpful as usual, and push on tmh looks really bad. I'm not sure how scum-motivated his argument with Moai was though. Kind of surprised he's this low on the list actually. Also, he doesn't know what an "easy target" is (724)? lol
*EtherealCookie/nhammen - nhammen's catchup post wasn't convincing but not really damning either. I don't like dropping E-Cookie so low but the people above need to get called out.
*I Am Innocent - I'm willing to go with IAI's explanation for his activity right now. I particularly like how in 734 he nails q21 for one of the things I called out.
|<gap>|
*diddin - He didn't democratically shoot after all, but at the same time, I'm okay with buying his reasoning for it.
*Nero Cain - A couple of posts raise eyebrows but overall I don't see a reason to change my read.
*StrangerCoug - Joining the terrible tmh wagon is a giant bad spot on a record I'd be otherwise sympathetic to.
*themanhimself - If tmh is scum, he was probably getting heavily bussed during his wagon (and it would not surprise me if his wagon was largely scum if tmh is Town). Questions and theories reflect a simple newbish honesty even when wrong.
|<gap>|
*Bunnylover - Catch-up posts do not look like they were made by scum, especially if scum have daytalk.
*WrathChild - No change. At this point WC is painfully obvious Town.
*curiouskarmadog - No change.
*implosion - No change.

TOWN

Bottom two tiers should still be lynchproof at this time.

My earlier point is that while I am happy to finally get to play with the great Vi, and recognize that you are a benefit to the team if you are indeed town, you don't seem quite up to speed. Hence why I don't like you guiding lynches, etc. I have no problem with you pointing out scummy things you come across, but to list Scummiest to Towniest players based on Page 14 or Page 20 just seems like a distraction when we are on page 58. Esp since alot may have changed, like TMH making a record amount of scummy moves D2. Just my 2 cents.

I'm Professor Paragon, but I'm more like one of those nutty professors. (Actually, it's even more appropriate now because I

am

a professor IRL ) I misremember things easily and often <.<

As far as I see what I'm doing I'm not really guiding or pushing lynches so much as providing a talking point and a way of seeing my thought process. We need active players, and more importantly we need obvious Townies. The more of those we can get, the better. (Why I suddenly decided I had a stake in this game... I don't know, really.) Besides, I don't really see these reads changing, especially on the bottom part of the list.

I already asked a while ago what in brief was the matter with tmh, since it seems to be the topic of the day. I saw the daykill and it was horrible on multiple levels. That doesn't necessarily make him scum.

[Saint]

I skipped ahead just for you, and I'm willing to buy some temporary leave due to other games, but from December 22 all the way to January 6 (two weeks)? And you were literally incapable of posting anything convincing until then?

There was a couple of little holidays that fell in here, you might have heard of them. They're called Christmas and New Years. Some of us weren't available for mafia during that time.

For instance, you point out that "Only shows up around Page 20", as though there is a scummy reason for this, when the simple truth is that I was V/LA over that time, and had announced it clearly to the mod and in the thread.

And you'll notice that's not the excuse IAI gave, but thanks for stepping up to bat for him.

Cut.

"Only shows up around Page 20" more referred to a lack of content to go on up to that point.
Now that I have more, rest assured I don't think differently.

My gut tells me

people

would love to have Saint (or should I say Vi) out of this game.

That's not the word I saw before. I'm sorry v.v

lol funny overreaction
but i didn't like the quote you quoted either when I read it.

[Saint]

Are you saying "more worthy lynch candidate" from your perspective, or theirs? Give me an example of what exactly you're referring to, please.

I am saying all four people you want to see vigged are town reads for me. Not one scummy player like bunnylover or Wrath Child, who hammered Powerox very shortly after he claimed a role (who was the competing lynch again....oh yeah, TMH)? Or how about Pops, who gave the green light to bunnylover / wrath child instead of discussing pros / cons for keeping the role in the game. These are a couple to name a few.

Are these town reads for you?

i really like this post

[Saint]

Still sick; just popping in with what I think.

I'm in favor of vigging themanhimself, Saint, and to some extent Parama. TMH and Saint I've already explained why I think of scummy; Parama has made it clear he refuses to contribute.

any explanation you've had towards me has been misrepresentation
your slanderousness, however, i am going to hold you liable for in the later stages of the game
if you wish to not have a misunderstanding in lylo as town, you should rectify your behavior towards me
im not omgusy, and i'm not sold you're scum yet, but just say that you are coasting and lurking and casting suspicion without REALLY contributing to the town while just APPEARING to scumhunt which is scum 101

just sayin'

[Saint]

Uh...

daykills are still protown, bad as things are

actually, daykills/gunsmith style (getting a gun) is actually VERY null for me
however, the manner in which he went about it was scummy

[Saint]

I am not fully convinced TMH is scum, but he surely isn't the town-slot that I believed he was earlier on in the game.
I had considered passing my ability to MoI, so I can't blame quadz for that, even if it is suspicious.
It's not vote worthy, and is more leaning than damning, but it just FEELS like an easy copout.

However, if he was scum, I don't feel like he would mention it at all.
thoughts??

[Saint]

Ok. We should lynch TMH today because if he is scum, he could just pass the dayvig ability to the player his team is going to nightkill, sending it to "the void."

unvote, Vote: themanhimself

Objection - this assumes that we get the Virus back from the Void, since the daykill needs the Virus to activate first.

Also if we have to go through with the Virus mess again this game will become especially unpleasant.

I show up when I can and when I post I generally try to contribute. If that results in pushing a few people's buttons and, as you call it, pushing the drama around, so be it.
I NEVER at an point in this game have had EtherealCookie as my "top scumspect". Never. In my last post before going V/LA (263) I didn't even suspect him enough to list him as a scumread. In 546/547 I do list him as a scumread, albeit a lesser one - if anything, that's a promotion up my scumlist, not dropping him down it.
But even if I did do exactly what you said I did, dropping EC down my scum list in favour of other suspects, lets have a look at what you've just done. Oh, you've just dropped EC (replaced by nhammen) from position 1 to position 7... demoting him down your scumlist in favour of other suspects... even further down than I allegedly did. Not only have you misrepped me with regard to my EC suspicion, you're a hypocrite too.

This argument is retarded for reasons that should be obvious, but.
1) Again, you only show up when it's personally convenient - either to maintain the status quo or to defend yourself in this case. Nothing pro-Town about it.
2) Oh dear, I dropped EC down.

CLEARLY

the entire thought is invalid... When hypocrisy becomes a scumtell, let me know.
*I'll grant that at best your suspicion of EC was waffling. I misread the level of your EC hate because calling out EC was the major reason I liked your first real post.
*Look at the people who you put in front of EC.

Vote Powerrox93

Other scum reads at the moment: Nero Cain. diddin. Less so, themanhimself and EC.

I'm willing to bet every last one of these are Town.

----

RedCoyote and multiball - If this turns out to be a multiball I'll grant a lot of my reads get weird.
That said, it's one more reason to lynch RedCoyote ASAP.

[Saint]

Vi, I appreciate you catching up and everything, but I think agree with IAI. Your scum/town lists from earlier in the game aren't terribly helpful; if anything, they're confusing. I'm quite interested to hear your reads once you're fully caught up, though.

It matters because EVERYONE IS VOTING PEOPLE I THINK ARE TOWNIES WHAT IS GOING ON HERE

After reading the arguments on lynching TMH tonight, I'm actually going to do a 180: he should get the stump and get vigged tomorrow. It makes too much sense to NOT do it. Having the dayvig around longer is a concern for me, but if it's pretty much gonna be used to get rid of TMH/the stump, there's no reason to get rid of it.

I know nobody's reading my posts except scum21, but maybe if I say it again people will notice.

--THE DAYKILL IS CONNECTED TO THE VIRUS
--WE ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET THE VIRUS BACK (in fact I'd prefer it if we didn't)
--DO NOT BANK ON HAVING IT

Plus Moai pretty much said why keeping abilities around was a --good thing-- --even if-- they were anti-Town, but nobody's listening to him either.

What is multiball?

Multiple Mafias. I expect 6 Mafiosi in this game, so 3 vs. 3.
After thinking about it, it would explain quite a few things that have gone on ITT.

Of course, we could just ask whoever night-vigged last Night to step forward, as I don't think anyone has claimed it.
That should answer that question, and since the power would have already cycled away it doesn't out the role, so I don't see a downside offhand.

[Saint]

All due respect Vi, but you need to read this game before commenting on it anymore. Don't straddle both ends.

Either read the game and comment or just stick to helping Fur out.

Excuse me!?

theman was advocating a no lynch yesterday, and, what's more, he defended this position after others pointed out to him how scummy it sounded. Honestly, backpedaling from that position wouldn't have been much better, but defending somehow seems worse given how long he's been playing the game. When this day started, he also slipped that he knew how the scum makeup was. These aren't political arguments, he's made scummy posts.

Oh, this is that argument I've been asking about for a while now.

You mentioned experience as a factor, so I looked up his activity. He came back to the site late 2010 after leaving in equally-late 2006 after a ~five-month career; on a quick skim his play in his last game in 2006 wasn't great - he almost got modkilled due to violating a post restriction. So, that.

Proposing a No Lynch was a silly idea all around and based on fuzzy logic, but I'm not seeing where it was scummy so much as logically dubious and an easy lightning rod. I've already read that far, not that you would be interested in noticing. As for saying he knew about the setup, are you referring to this post at the beginning of the Day:

Hrm.... so I'm guessing there's an SK? Either that or a vig but if there's a vig the ability probably cycles so I don't know that it's much use trying to get anything from that.

As a matter of fact, YES, you are (RC #24). What, are we not supposed to comment about having more kills than expected (HINT: like I did a post or two ago and a few people thought it was a great idea)? Or are we always supposed to suspect two Mafias (I didn't until you said something)? What are you trying to push here?

tmh's logic for taking the daykill from diddin makes sense as either alignment. tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well). The kill wasn't the best, but at the same time, it was understandable (especially considering everyone was moaning D1 about how diddin used a long democratic process to decide his kill). COULD it have been scum-motivated? Yes of course, but Parama was probably very low on the list of targets scum would have conveniently wanted out of the way. COULD it be possible that this is a plot between diddin-scum and tmh-scum so that they got the daykill twice? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely and the fact that you (RedCoyote) tried to pass it off as a legitimate argument is -ludicrous- considering the suspicion about diddin's daykill is similarly overhyped beyond reason.

So I've done what you asked and did all the required reading about your tmh case, and as it turns out, not only has my opinion not changed about tmh, my opinion hasn't changed about you. Scum.

[Saint]

tmh's logic for passing the Driver to diddin makes sense on a couple of levels as well (aside from fair play, tmh intended to vig/lynch diddin as well).

EBWOP: Erase "a few levels" and "fair play". That was my initial interpretation of "the person who got the bus driver knows why".

Also, tmh couldn't pass the Driver to diddin if they're both scum.

[Saint]

@ CKD, where would your vote be currently?

TMH

why

[Saint]

themanhimself

- Please tell me if it is possible for Mafiosi to pass each other abilities with the Driver. If it doesn't say, ask for mod clarification.

[Saint]

Actually,

diddin

can answer that same question.

And because I'm in a posting mood.

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

Cut.

1) In this instance I posted a defence, true, but to label all my posting as either defending myself or trying to preserve the status quo is a blatant misrepresentation. Point in case: Back at the beginning of January when very few people had so much as mentioned Powerrox and certainly no one had voted him in any seriousness I made a case for his lynch and placed the first vote on what became the lynch of the day. If that is posting to maintain the status quo then you have a very warped definition of status quo.

Could you provide another example? Leading a lynch on a village idiot isn't exactly a claim to fame.

thing is, how can you - if you are actually town - honestly condemn someone for doing something you are also guilty of.

Not everyone plays perfect games. Also, motivation.

You have a proof positive example

of a townie (yourself)

committing exactly the same act which makes that act, at the very least, a nulltell.

Why thank you~

His sudden willingness to vote AntB back during day 1 coming out of nowhere was scummy.

Being willing to vote someone without saying why

with no threat of a lynch

is a scummy move now? Without looking back through the QT I'm not sure if I was the one who gave him the idea that AntB was scummy, but I can certainly vouch for encouraging him here.

experienced Vi is calling TMH town despite a preponderance of scumminess

And I was even kind enough to say why. Oh, you're not going to bother with that, are you?

In the absence of a flip on either this point is the weakest, but given that I strongly read TMH as scum - as in, I'd be personally banging in the nails at his crucifixion if I didn't think we owed it to ourselves to at least try and keep the dayvig power and attempt to take both him and the stump out tomorrow - I think it's at least a little valid. Hint: TMH is the reason I most think you'll lose that little bet.

Vote Saint

Someone, anyone. Spot the contradiction in motives in this quote.

Cut again.

nhammen

- Consider that if diddin is scum, you just gave him license to throw the dayvig to a partner instead. If diddin is Town, you just gave him license to give it to someone who might not be Town.

[Saint]

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

--

By "Cut" that means someone posted ahead of me, so that kind of implied that I was responding to someone else... Either way, I can do that next time.

[Saint]

However, it seems at least possible that we have multiple scumteams, so I would shy away from calling diddin confirmed town.

Oh, so the "multiple scum

teams

" idea is nothing new.~

Cut... again. Only when I make posts

---

I actually mentioned one in the post you're quoting here. It was to do with two irrefutably scummy things you've done, accusations which, interestingly enough, you have neglected to respond to. Just for good measure I placed the first vote on a diddin miniwagon early on day 1, granted I wasn't wading into entirely unsupported territory, but also certainly wasn't just posting to maintain the status quo.

"Irrefutably scummy"... Oh dear. I don't suppose you know who this "Furcolow" character is or why he requested a teaching hydra, right? And I suppose all those Townies you've been advocating the lynch of were irrefutably scummy as well? (hint: they were, but they were still Townies)

I can't respond to what Furcolow has done because this is a teaching hydra. Rather than explicitly direct how he plays, I let him post as he liked and try to guide his suspicions (somewhat - that implosion hate D1 was entirely his idea) and give him ideas on how to improve the kind of play he has. (I actually think the hydra is making it worse, but we can discuss that later.) Originally I had no intent to participate in this game - lest you don't believe me, look at the teaching hydra Alnara in Beefster's Open Game - but this game just became -that hard- to watch.

Incidentally, Saint was doing pretty fine survival-wise without me posting. Meanwhile during the week I'm pressed for time, in high-stress mode, and not taking on new commitments. That I chose to come into this game and read 36 pages so far and generally make hay should say something to anyone who doesn't already have a conclusion made about this slot's alignment.

In fact your motivation for misrepping me with regard to my level of suspicion on EC was so that you could hypocritically accuse me; which is a genuinely scummy motivation.

My "motivation" for misrepping you was that I misunderstood your posts, opening the door to what would otherwise have been a legitimate argument. Sure, that's genuinely scummy. (>")>

Being willing to vote someone without giving even the slightest hint of a reason has always been scummy.

It's bad play, but certainly not necessarily scummy. You'll never catch scum that way unless they're already being bussed.

I don't buy the why you presented and am more inclined to view it as an attempt to convince others to drop their perfectly valid suspicions.

"You don't buy the why" sounds funny, but other than that I just see this as an excuse not to talk about it. I'm reasonable, I would ASSUME other Townies are also reasonable, the points laid out are thought through, etc.

And you didn't mention the conflict of motivation, so I will for you.

You're voting me in no small part because you think TMH is scum and I'm defending him. That's nice. Now when I flip Town, what will that say about TMH? Nothing at all. If you lynched TMH and he flipped Town, you would see that I certainly DON'T have the scum motivation to defend him as a partner - and considering that he's lynchbait, probably none whatsoever regardless. So why vote me?

[Saint]

I caused StrangerCoug to have the virus. The daykill is protown, as is pseudolynching with the virus so I selected the player I felt most likely to survive the night but who still had a town feel.

My original choice though, was MoI, with similar logic. I spent so much time combing through his posts during my decisionmaking process and so little with Coug's smaller opportunity that I mistakenly thought I had passed my ability to MoI, sending it to the void. When Coug claimed he had the ability, I was very confused, and I wanted to see if it was the same virus Parama started the game with. If it was, it implied a bus driver.

I felt really stupid when just a few minutes later I remembered considering StrangerCoug as an option, and then subsequently decided that posting volume is correlated with nightkillability and that I should target Coug instead of MoI.

Wait, wait, and also what. Bringing the Virus in is a cycling power?

Could you slowly explain how this works for me? In that explanation, can you go over how Parama got the Virus D1?

[Saint]

Now at Page 40. Current standings:

SCUM

*RedCoyote - Gratuitously pushing responsibility for the D1 lynch onto nhammen and Bunnylover was AwEsOmE. (809) 903 read as slimy to me.
*q21 - 812 is lol, 897 looks REALLY manufactured.
*TheLonging/Lateralus22 - That was an EXCELLENT snap to calling Bunnylover a liar in 978 *applause*
*quadz - Overhyping Drivergate, asking if anyone was interested in doing Moai's action claiming sequence without actually acting on it, didn't even bother responding to diddin's vote as far as I saw, hype hype hype hype hype
|<gap>|
*I Am Innocent - Pushes on pops seem really contrived from where I'm sitting.
*LynchMePlz - Shameless bandwagoning is indeed shameless bandwagoning but at least he's consistent and not quite completely opportunistic about it.
*Nero Cain - His posts have gone from reading like cocky Town to reckless scum (765 with "sorry but you feel like opportunistic scum", 858 and 859, 989 looks hilariously bad on its face).
|<gap>|
*EtherealCookie/nhammen - Still catching up, still could go either way on his catchup posts. 947 was physically painful to read, but beyond that he's not actively helping scum, so...
*popsofctown - Completely against expectations, his version of discussing the scumkills and the Virus and RC washing his hands of the lynch seemed shockingly Townish. What happened, and do it again o.o
|<gap>|
*diddin - Some of what he's saying is incrediwrong, but I don't think scum would brag about confirmed Towniness so much based on a flip they knew in advance would be Town.
*WrathChild - I'll admit he's pushing the envelope on being scummy in this segment, though.
*themanhimself - I don't think he would argue with Moai like that at the end of D1 as scum.
*curiouskarmadog - Whiny and a touch unhelpful but otherwise not anything big.
*StrangerCoug - Behavior around the Virus, esp. not giving it to Parama, looks VERY Townish.
*Bunnylover - Would almost certainly NOT have claimed to have been passed MoI's ability if he were part of a scumgroup.
*implosion - No change, although few posts.

TOWN

Bottom tier is still untouchable. Can't wait to be done with this.

---------

Cut: Okay, how about just explaining how it works for me? I'm being :slow:

[Saint]

I caused StrangerCoug to have the virus. That may or may not be the same way Parama came to acquire the virus day 1. The virus may or may not be able to appear tomorrow.

I haven't divulged much info about this, and won't until I see why this info satisfies the Need To Know rule for the town. From my viewpoint extra info disclosure regarding this helps scum more than town, but if you can show that's not the case I'll gladly tell more.

...
I can see how the question I want to ask can help scum to have an answer to.
Well, the answer should come out or become irrelevant in due time.

[Saint]

That's funny. When Furcolow posts, I feel suicidal, yet when Vi posts I get a decent town read.

Vi+Furcolow: Spreading the Schizo.

Actually, it's probably only a little different from playing with either of us normally

Gut still says ckd scum too, but that's for another time obviously.

I don't think ckd is scum UNLESS there are multiple scumgroups.

An open question to everyone: how valuable do you consider the dayvig to actually be? Would you be willing to try the following or some version of it:

We give diddin a list of a few people, and he randomly busdrives the dayvig to one of them(so that in case he's scum, he can't use it elsewhere, and to minimize chances of dayvig winding up in the void).

ckd passes the stump to tmh. Either shoot him or organize a group of people to spam during times that he isn't online.

Actually, that might be a decent way to control the virus kill... pass it to someone then spam while they're sleeping... it's devious yet could work.

The bolded is fine. I don't care what you do with the stump and I'm not up for a tmh kill.

You can't control the virus kill with the method you described because the person who gets the virus has to acknowledge that they have it (by opening the PM or generally showing up onsite).

Also, the more I think of his killing Parama, the less I like it anymore. There was a reason Parama was not given the bomb. Vigging Parama was the cheapest option themanhimself had, and he took it. I regret my support of it.

In retrospect I actually think giving Parama the Virus was the second- or third-best move we could have made (the best two being to keep passing it and move on, and not putting it in play at all). The only way to kill someone with the Virus is to beat them down emotionally until they agree to commit suicide, which is not at all unlike self-hammering in regards to their Win Condition and also just not fun to do or watch.

[Saint]

I honestly don't see why you couldn't, implosion. I also doubt the Mod would tell me since he wouldn't tell me, a townie, what scum can or can't do.

The mod cannot answer questions about abilities that are not confirmed to exist.

Since YOU undeniably and confirmedly have the ability, it's YOUR job to stop making excuses, stop looking sketchy*, and

ask

.

*unless you're scum, in which case don't mind me. (>")>

[Saint]

Taking the vig and then using that terrible "we'll do it democratically" shit is terrible. Did you see how it ended yesterday? Dayvig's should take the best shot they can, and then accept the consequences of their action. Voting on the dayvig is TERRIBLE.

Please tell me how that vig shot ended D1, because it looked quite a bit like it was used as a second lynch - exactly as diddin advertised.

Saying that majority-rule dayvigging is a bad idea is a matter of opinion, but making it sound like a

scummy

thing to suggest is out of place.

It ended in a misvig where we gained almost 0 information we couldn't have gained from regular voting, not to mention a large amount of time spent debating the actual use of the vigging. diddin just shooting someone would have both a) gotten the flip earlier giving us more time to discuss it's ramifications and b) given us a LOT of information about diddin (assuming he would explain his shot).

In a word, it ended terribly.

All fair enough, but was it

scummy

that TMH (or diddin before him) suggested a Democratic Day Dos Dayvig?
For that matter, since TMH shot the way you wanted him to, what do you get from that?

--

By "Cut" that means someone posted ahead of me, so that kind of implied that I was responding to someone else... Either way, I can do that next time.

duh duh duh
nice alliteration, vi

[Saint]

honestly, to whoever was concerned with my AntB situation, I honestly felt he was going to flip scum. When I saw he was modkilled, I was very surprised, and I didn't know I hadn't mentioned him before, as I'd been talking with Vi about him.

Sorry! I've clarified this before, though.

I disagree on Q21 with you, vi, but I am definitely willing to see considering

[Saint]

Why needlessly speculate at all? An SK? Multiple teams? An ability nightkill? It could be a number of things. You don't need to remind us there was a second kill, and you certainly don't need to start putting your two cents in when your guess has no real weight (unless, of course, you do have inside information). Frankly, I don't like that "either this or that" way he phrased his comment either. So there's that.

Indeed, why needlessly speculate, RedCoyote? You and quadz were the ones who mentioned "Scum Group 1". Since you just made a dichotomy between guesses having no real weight and havng inside information, should I take that to mean you're needlessly Spreading the Hysteria with that comment, or should I take that to mean you have inside information and know the truth of it?

In giving only two options for explaining both kills he forgot about multiple scumgroups, which are probably the LEAST common between Vig and SK for possible reasons. Forgivable. So, that.

theman wants us to believe he stole the daykill ability in order to democratically use it. I don't know if he ever brought this aspect up again today, and we know he certainly didn't use it in his Parama kill. Bottom line, that's what made the whole charade scummy, not the kneejerk stealing of it (which I admitted I probably would've considered myself had I had his ability), but that he comes out and tells everyone he wants to wash himself of the responsibility of killing someone himself. That got diddin into trouble (although everyone has since forgave him, apparently), so why shouldn't theman be held accountable?

Well, for one, he didn't shoot democratically. And he did say he wanted to shoot in like 48 hours. The rest will get answered below.

Now how would you come to the conclusion Parama was or wasn't low on the scum target list? I saw him as pretty solidly town, and I know you did too. Had he been forced to claimed for whatever reason, we now know he had the Doctor ability. I realize this was after the fact, but that doesn't mean the scum didn't know that Parama had the Doctor ability. So, no, I don't buy your defense of theman here either.

Until DBE claimed Doctor for Parama, sure he was Town, but he was doing the next best thing to actively hindering the Town. Why kill that kind of player as scum?

If we can get theman's flip, we can start drawing concrete connections better than we're doing now. I'm telling you, if we rely too heavily on night ability swapping, we're seriously putting all our eggs in one basket. Very rarily do you want to leave someone who you think is scum alive.

You can't draw concrete connections from Town-flips. But I have to question why you're not even considering that.

There is no dichotomy between using cycling connections and scumhunting. Moai's plan was the best and the fact that people don't want to go with it pretty much correlates with how we've had five VI-lynches in a row and there's no sign of stopping.

What I found scummy was both players made it sound like we were going to vote democratically on it and how to use it, but in the end it seemed like both players made critical decisions on it themselves.

Diddin - in the end he decided to only consider two outted vanilla players, and nobody else. This was under the pretense of not outting more power roles. When the person with the power made that decision, it became un-Democratic IMO.

TMH - Says he is going to do it democratically, than gives us only 24 hours to make a pick, than makes a pick that did not feel like a majority to me, and kills him without asking for a claim, which I specifically told him to do so. He got rid of a strong power role that I hinted was probably with Parama, based on all that DBE said. Very scummy indeed.

You're ignoring a few key points here.

1) If Lat's vigvote counts were correct, the choices diddin made

were indeed

between the top two vote-getters. That they happened to be claimed Vanillas was a pleasant and desirable side effect.

2) TMH only said he wanted to demo-kill... once, IIRC. Then LMP got in his face and called him scummy for even suggesting it, saying that it would say more if he shot someone and took the consequences. So that's what he did. Incidentally, Doctor being a "strong power role" only seems to apply in this game where there's only one, maybe two people talking sense at a time.

While I have a fairly Town read on WrathChild, it's worth noting that both diddin and TMH were deciding between WC and their eventual targets.

[Saint]

Also a reminder to self to double check everybody's suggestions for the D2 vig kill.

Sure, let's.

The posts before everyone got distracted by the Virus were taken up by OMG TMH IS SCUM and no recommendations, so let's start reading at 1343 when DBE gets fried.

IAI - Bunnylover/Pops
Bunnylover - Saint/Parama
Parama - diddin
TMH - diddin/Parama
ckd - Parama/Bunnylover

Breaking to say lol, quadz is pushing that diddin and TMH can both be scum on ~*~different scumgroups~*~ in 1361

quadz - diddin/Parama/Nero Cain/Saint
diddin - Bunnylover/quadz/RedCoyote
implosion - RedCoyote/curiouskarmadog
StrangerCoug - TMH/Saint/Parama
pops - Whoever (not counting this for anything)

Five Votes

Parama

Three Votes

Bunnylover
Saint
diddin

Two Votes

RedCoyote

One Vote

popsofctown
Nero Cain
quadz
curiouskarmadog
themanhimself

I'm sure nobody actually looked at these numbers when deciding who to shoot or whether tmh was scummy, but there you have it.

More in a few.

[Saint]

Also, I can't tell if this slot is voting, so.

Vote: quadz (L-way too many)

RedCoyote is fine too.

[Saint]

I can compromise, but first

MOD: VOTE COUNT

also

Lateralus22 has requested replacement.

I feel sorry for who picks this slot up.

[Saint]

Saint, I no longer have a town read on your slot.

The site rules say you aren't allowed to be Town and sound more pompous than me. I'd hate for you to get modkilled.

As for the peer pressure of LMP, please, that is no excuse. For you to even make that an excuse for "town" TMH is absurd. For all "town" TMH knows, LMP is scum trying to rush things, so I do not buy that for one instance.

That's if he considered it that way. I wouldn't have.

His taking of the power role was scummy

Not particularly. If someone like Moai had done it nobody would have raised a fuss.

his killing a player 13.5 hours prior to saying he would without asking for a claim is even scummier.

Let's look at the last few posts before his shot.

You guys shoot whoever you want. I can't find scum in this game and I just give up. Well I can't totally give up, I've got a duty to play to my wincon, but I am going to take a break. I've read too many players wrong this game, I need some time to develop a new angle on this game. Or more information.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel this way a bit too. I really like the game concept/setup idea, but the town just seems to be imploding . We need to hit scum soon.

To which he replies

C'mon guys, don't wuss out, I'm playing in like four games right now and this one is hands down my favorite. I don't like that sentiment coming from parama because it sounds to me like he's scum who knows that he's caught. Implosion and pops haven't been major suspects so I don't necessarily see that coming from them. I'll do the game a three fold favor right now

The comment that implosion and pops "haven't been major suspects" is somewhat strange, but the fact remains that he thought he was doing a good thing. Besides, I think asking about the No Lynch D1 pretty much cements that tmh is impulsive when he tries to be helpful, and this is more of the same.

---

I don't like defending other people for them. They usually take the opportunity to look scummier, although they usually still flip Town. But it's the only way a VI-type seems to be able to get a fair shake.

---

So which is it, did you take matters in your own hands, or did you do it because there were alot of other people who wanted him dead?

Why not both?

---

So regarding the below, I believe Lat's (later) vote counts were swayed by the fact the person holding the day vig said EC was off limits. (Post one, why is EC scummy, Post two, I don't want to out any more power roles, Post three, I am not shooting EC) Agree?

One and two, not really. Three, yes.

diddin confirms that it's only between WC and Helghast in 541.

And... yes, Lat's vote and a few others definitely changed to just those two. So you are correct here.

I still don't think this necessarily makes diddin scum though.

[Saint]

unvote;
vote: redcoyote

active scum lynch > inactive scum lynch, vi

[Saint]

You're suspicious of us because Vi is supicious of you. I see why she is, as you are flailing and AtE. Furthermore, you provide reads without any real solidity to them.

If you are not suspicious of our hydra for that,

what are you suspicious of us for?

Vi defending TMH?
let him hang.
I don't know his alignment whatsoever.

I honestly wouldn't mind you all stopping the whole useless FoS on our slot as scum;
WE AREN'T GOING TO GET MISLYNCHED, REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY OF YOU THERE ARE
OBV TOWN IS OBV TOWN

IF YOU WANT US GONE SO BAD, USE A HIT ON US.

[Saint]

if you suspected me, you must be completely unfamiliar with my play

[Saint]

So, question for quadz and RedCoyote.

In most games with more than one kill at Night, the idea of two scumgroups never comes up at all. So why is this game a special occasion? And for bonus points, RedCoyote, why is themanhimself scummy for mentioning a different possibility?

The only game I've been in where someone started speculating about the existence of multiple scumgroups without it previously being common knowledge involved that someone being scum on one of those scumgroups.

Further, hammering in that diddin and themanhimself CAN BOTH BE SCUM UNDER THIS NOT-NECESSARILY-APPLICABLE CIRCUMSTANCE seems like a good way to stop Town reads from coming out, which is really rather harmful for the Town, so etc.

If there are multiple scumgroups, most of us who, y'know, don't have that inside knowledge would be best served assuming we have one group until proven otherwise, at which time we can re-evaluate our Town reads.

----

^Quadz is so scum.

Him or WC, decisions, decisions...

Quadz definitely.

----

No one asked theman why there were two kills. He just threw it out there.

I don't want to get into a theory discussion about what the most likely explanation is here, because I don't think it's necessary. What I do think is that the way theman framed that statement looked wholly ungenuine, which has been characteristic of his play thus far. I got the exact same vibe from the no lynch comment, Vi. The exact same vibe. Now tell me, what do you think of that?

Unless you can tell me why it looks wholly ungenuine, the only response to the first sentence here is... so what? And my response to the rest is - why not vote quadz for the same logic?

He offered to. That's the point. He let the cat out of the box. No one knew he had the Vig power until he offered that information to us. As if that weren't bad enough, you know, the cherry on top is that he then tells us he's selling his Vig shot to the whims of the public. If it was bad to do this on the first day, it was worse to do this on the second day when there were four less townies to chime in.

Oho~ Thanks for picking up right where I expected LMP-scum to go!
*You can't hide that you have the dayvig if you're planning to use it. diddin did say that you had to post inthread to use it. If you're planning to use it, there's no reason not to say you have it. None whatsoever given the Virus running aboot.
*"It was bad to do this on the first Day" goes back to the theory discussion I had with LMP. Whether it's good or bad is a topic of pointless debate we can have in MD later, but calling it

scummy

is right out. The last part just doesn't make sense - it must be hideously anti-Town for us to lynch on Day 2 because there are seven fewer Townies directing the lynch.

Parama may have been a prick this game, but he was laying out clear suspects and giving us his impression of the game. He wasn't a leader in this game, no, but a game won't run with 12 leaders trying to pull the game in 12 different directions. If you are a townie who, one, is looked upon by the majority of the game as a townie, two, is using your vote rationally, and three, is giving clear reads on the game at at least somewhat regular intervals, then you are a serious threat to scum. Period. Few players had such a standing in this game. Parama was one of them.

It was a scummy shot, but I don't think I have to sell you on that. It was a really scummy shot. Do you agree?

No. If I were around at the time I wouldn't have paid attention to anything Parama said, and offhand I don't think many others did either because he decided to go the loud and obnoxious route instead of actually explaining himself. And it showed when people - all but one of whom I have a Town read on - wanted Parama out.

*shrug*

I feel confident he's scum. Sorry. I mean, what do you want me to say? I'm not going to just cross my fingers and hope he's lynched. I have to work for it. That's what you'd expect me to do, right?

Still, I understand and agree with your point about not drawing connections via a townflip. I only counter by say that, after the first scumflip, all townflips become more informative. Would you agree?

You're welcome to push for the lynches of people you think are scum, but guaranteeing that someone will flip scum reeks of CAPS LAWCK or inside information. And one of the few pro-Town things I can say about your play in this game is that you're not CAPS LAWKE.

After the first scumflip, only the Townflips that matter by association become more informative. We still don't get anything from muh or Parama, for instance.

Even if I take your word for it (I do), why do you need to say

[that nobody considered the numbers]

? Why didn't theman say when he shot that he suspected a lot of Parama heat, or, heck, I'll even take it after the fact. Why not point this out? I mean, even you have to admit that you doing this and not the man himself (I guess this happens more often than I thought, heh) is a little suspect, right?

You don't need to physically count votes to see that he's the one most people want... and frankly tmh wanted to shoot Parama anyway.

What's more interesting is that you and IAI are trying to paint Parama as a shot that nobody wanted when that's not the case.
Historical revisionism or honest mistake? I report, you decide.

----

Ummmmmm... I suspected you long before Vi started posting. Nice try on the misrep, though.

ITT quadz implies he hasn't read anything I've said?

----

Very necessary tl;dr -
The first part speaks for itself and you should read it again, then skip the rest of the quote boxes.
Pretty much all of RedCoyote's reasons for pushing themanhimself are fraudulent.
quadz has nothing to say for himself.
Both of them are independently scum and I would be very happy to see either of them lynched Today.

[Saint]

ITT Vi is Bad at Mafia. And prefers FireFox.

---

[etc.]

Guess what, the Doctor role is now completely useless as DBE and Parama, the two holders of it are both dead, and the power is now gone from the game. If that is not scum motivation, then I don't know what is!

You missed a little. You showed that there would most certainly be scum motivation for TMH to act as he did. I don't think he was motivated by being scum, because bluntly for him to be scum he would have to be more cunning than I would give him credit for, not to mention abjectly shameless.

With that said, I didn't understand your contradiction the first time I looked at it so I went back--

Hm... a thought occurs. Could we perhaps use bad abilities (like the treestump) to test possible mafia partners? Mafia can't pass to mafia of the same faction. So if suspicion arises that X and Y are mafia together, we could test the theory by passing the treestump to X and telling them to pass it to Y. If random person Z gets the treestump ability, then X and Y are mafia together (or Z is lying, which in the treestump's case, can be tested by having them vote someone). Notes: fails epically if mafia happen to have a bus driving ability.

Acutually, come to think of it, if there is an ability that affects the way abilities are passed (i.e. bus driving) it could be bad early and late on, and something like that is decently likely to be present considering how well it would fit with the mechanic.

Prophetic enough, but I have a Town read on implosion, so anyway.

tmh directly acknowledges this in his 125.

The contradiction takes on an interesting flavor when you see it in context:

In fact, why don't we vote on who it should go to tomorrow and then if it doesn't go to that person then we have a good scumlink, if it does go to that person then we have it in the hands of someone that most people don't believe is scum.

Good idea, especially when the scum kill that person and the dayvig winds up in the void.

This is actually your strategy from post #67, I just applied it to the dayvig role. It's a lot less reckless than pushing a scum to use his killing ability. Besides, this way it almost certainly ends up in town hands tomorrow. If diddin is scum as a lot of people believe then he can't pass it to a scumbuddy so it has to go to town. If diddin is town then it ends up in the hands of someone the town largely believes to be innocent.

I think at this point I should stop talking and let the man himself answer this one.
1) What were you trying to do with this?
2) Why didn't you claim your ability during any of this?

----

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

1) I would rather kill scum, so theoretically no. In practice, my voice will probably be overruled and I really wouldn't want to have anything to do with the Virus and dayvig anyway, so I honestly don't care.
2) The tree stump should only be passed to whoever will get daykilled D3. If you're going to kill TMH anyway, you may as well give him the stump.

-----

quadz - Absolutely. You said you had a scum read on Saint since before I posted. Yet you've acknowledged almost nothing of what I've said, even after I pretty much directly called you out for being scum multiple times. I'm led to believe you either haven't read it all, already had your mind made up about this slot with artificial tunnel vision, or both.

So pops - LMP might be scum, but I'm willing to bet much more that quadz is scum. YOU join ME.
Furcolow - RedCoyote can be next.

Unvote: RedCoyote
Vote: quadz08 (L-7)

q21 - The chance of you lynching me Today without pulling your entire scum team with you is nil. You may as well not bother.

-----

themanhimself

- There are two questions up there for you. Answer them.

[Saint]

Who are we lynching?

quadz. Vote now.

You've called me everything from townie to today's lynch; it all depends on where you were in your readthrough. I didn't find it necessary to comment on old news, Vi. Once you're fully caught up, show me a case, and I'll respond to that.

I called you Townie for the first ten pages, and outlined in no uncertain terms what I've found wrong since. Try harder.

Unless I posted something that shows ignorance of a view/idea you had, it's pretty ridiculous to assume I didn't read what you wrote. FWIW, your posts are adding town cred to your slot, but I'm reserving real judgement until you're fully caught up.

My posts about tmh have nothing to do with me being caught up, and given that I'm saying ludicrously controversial things one would think that you would at least mention them. Again, try harder.

[Saint]

Hey, I didn't know I could quote blue people. I can have fun with that later.

[Saint]

How many votes does quad have?

Eight

Three if I'm not mistaken.

[Saint]

q21 - Refresh me again on why you want me lynched. The OTH take-home version of it was "I'm out to get you".

Ball of the Goof - Why the hesitation?

[Saint]

I don't like the pressure you two are putting on Goof. Let Goof catch up, which will take about two days and make their own decision.

I wouldn't be nearly as strict if it weren't for how confident I am that she replaced into a scum slot. I know we're talking about Goofball here, but what's the point in asking "who are we lynching" and hesitating when an answer is given?

1) You have misrepped me and then hypocritically called me scummy based on that misrepresentation.
2) Your comment about my posting was also a misrepresentation. Its not so much that you're out to get me, but that you did it scummily.
3) Also, SaintFurc has been scummy which you want to dismiss as Furc being Furc. I'm more keep on the explanation of Furc being scum.
4) Lastly, I find your defence of TMH disingenuous.

1) I've already acknowledged that my initial attack was in error. You must have a low opinion of me if you think that I deliberately fail fact checks regardless of alignment. As far as hypocrisy goes, not only has more than one person mentioned that it's not a tell but the point is so silly that it doesn't warrant the measure you've given it.
2) No, actually, I maintain that my opinion of your play is quite correct and that you're giving yourself credit for way too much.
3) Go ahead and explain why you think Furcolow is scummy for me; because Furcolow is Easy Target Central.
4) I asked you to explain that one a while ago, and got a blanket "I don't like it" (#27). IAI laughs at your pathetic attempt at rebuttal.

So 1) and 3) indicate that you're single-mindedly trying to make things look as bad as possible for me/us/appropriatehydrapronoun while 4) shows that you're more interested in the

idea

of me being scummy for defending TMH rather than looking at why.

I was a little concerned I was on the wrong track for a moment there >.>

[Saint]

Easy Target

Have I mentioned I hate this terminology?

And I hate the term Village Idiot and try not to use it. You know what I'm talking about.

[Saint]

oh, geez, vi followed by nhammen followed by redcoyote just on this page
i know i'm going to be in for a

delightful

reading of these walls
seriously...

[Saint]

And if the fact that I suspected you is new information, you must be completely unfamiliar with the thread.

I've read the thread, but you are actively lurking so hard your comments my flight by me, bro.

I find IAI's #1578's doctor comments scummy

@IAI

what is the point in dwelling on the past with this?

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

My answers
1) yes
2) yes

1) not if we decide he is town, which I feel he is
2) leave it for WIFOM

why are you fishing, here, IAI? this information is scummily motivated... hard.

FOS: IAI

[Saint]

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

1) YES
2) This one I'm not so sure of anymore. If we're still assuming the dayvig makes it to day 3, then yes. But that assumption is dangerous here because if the dayvig doesn't make it we're forced to give scum TMH another day.

I have scumreads on Nero Cain, Bunny, and Saint still. I could have my vote on any one of the three, but it wouldn't mean anything, and I don't really think any of them is scummier than another. If it's gonna be an issue for me to not my have my vote somewhere, I'll throw it on one of the three of them.

It would mean something if you voted Saint, since then there would be 2 people voting for that particular scum.

durrr i can make your case durrr
q21 is scum
join me on the q21 wagon, he is scum

@Q21

i don't know if i'm right, and if you're town which i believe you are, you shouldn't word things that way.

[Saint]

@wrathchild, you say Diddin is confirmed town if TMH flips scum, but they had the busdriving aspect
What if TMH passed it off to a dead slot (the bus driver), and bus drove diddin passing it to a town slot to himself
that would bend the rules, not break them.

[Saint]

I don't like Vi's 1592 setting up a chain lynch, but I have inside knowledge of her obv townness, so she gets a free pass

also, said chain lynch is a good idea and should be amended to the general "let's follow this plan, hey, you guys" townie plan of awesomeness

[Saint]

q21 - Refresh me again on why you want me lynched. The OTH take-home version of it was "I'm out to get you".

You have misrepped me and then hypocritically called me scummy based on that misrepresentation. Your comment about my posting was also a misrepresentation. Its not so much that you're out to get me, but that you did it scummily.
Also, SaintFurc has been scummy which you want to dismiss as Furc being Furc. I'm more keep on the explanation of Furc being scum.
Lastly, I find your defence of TMH disingenuous.

Give me an example of "me being scummy" and don't just say A = A
WHERE?

...

I'm waiting, because there's nothing you can have on me.

[Saint]

UNVOTE: themanhimself
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

THIS IS A STICKUP.

Your second and third scummiest reads accompanied with explanations or your life.

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

Yes.

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

Yes.

I like this post

[Saint]

UNVOTE: themanhimself
VOTE: curiouskarmadog

*cough* treestump *cough*

Yes to both of IAI's questions btw.

LOL I LIKE THIS POST MORE

[Saint]

Easy Target

Have I mentioned I hate this terminology?

And I hate the term Village Idiot and try not to use it. You know what I'm talking about.

et tu , vi?
sic transit gloria mundi!
mafia interruptus,
i must go relieve my eyes!

[Saint]

@nhammen: (i know it wasn't directed at me)

Wrath - easy target
RedCoyote - probably scum
Bunny - scum/VI
pops - I believed he was scum, but I am re-assessing that possibly. Sort of torn on him.
LynchMePls - This read is null for me

[Saint]

Look, but, be honest. You're trying to paint me as the bad guy here. I don't think you're being very fair here. I was asked. Point blank. I was asked how could diddin and theman both be scum given the ability passing mechanic. I responded. I was asked how theman's flip could give us a better clue about the setup. So come off this idea that I'm trying to treat this game special or corrupt people into my line of thinking. I'm throwing possibilities out there based on what little we've been shown so far.

I actually have to agree with him here.
I still believe he is scum, but

it is possible, dammit

that it was passed via driving

[Saint]

If you vote theman with me I could care less if you read my wall, Fur.

too late
i read the entire thread except for maybe a paragraph or two of nhammen

[Saint]

is there a reason you walled my OBV-townness off the thread, Q21?

[Saint]

is there a reason you walled my OBV-townness off the thread, Q21?

What obvtowness?

you must not know who i am....

[Saint]

We have a week till deadline. I support the Quadz, Wrath and to an extent the TMH wagons. Implosion, I AM, Bunny and Q21 need to switch their votes to one of those 3. DGB needs to vote.

Personally I like the Quadz lynch and I'd like to see him flip today.

+town from me here
i was doubting you
happy you are with our slot

[Saint]

I find IAI's #1578's doctor comments scummy

@IAI

what is the point in dwelling on the past with this?

Not dwelling, just pointing out scum motivation that TMH had.

Parama's kill ensured the end of the Doctor power role, and all links from players having the Doctor are now dead and we have 0 leads on the scum from that role. Scum 1, Town 0.

I find IAI's #1578's doctor comments scummy

@IAI

what is the point in dwelling on the past with this?

I want everyone on record on the following two questions before we get to N2.

1) If TMH survives to D3, and assuming the day vig makes it to D3, should TMH be killed D3 (either voluntarily by holding the virus, or forced through the day vig)?

2) If TMH survives D2, should CKD pass the tree stump to TMH N2?

My answers
1) yes
2) yes

1) not if we decide he is town, which I feel he is
2) leave it for WIFOM

why are you fishing, here, IAI? this information is scummily motivated... hard.

FOS: IAI

Are you referring to my questions? If not, please clarify.

I'll answer assuming you are referring to my 2 questions. I think CKD should pass the Tree Stump to TMH tomorrow. I want it on record what the group thinks so there is no loophole here.

I don't want D3 to come and CKD to say, 'I did not pass it to TMH because I wasn't sure he was going to be the day kill D3', or 'I thought we were worried about the dayvig ending up in the void'.

By getting everyone on record, (and the clear majority thinks he should pass it to TMH assuming TMH is notlynched today,) CKD loses those loopholes. He has to send it to TMH or otherwise we know they are likely scum partners.

PS - And then we can circle back and see who was pushing the hardest for a TMH lynch D2 to try to save one teammate at the hands of bussing the other.

Other than your PS, which is decent, I feel your post is largely IIoA and lacks

balls

[Saint]

sorry for quoting that to make a one liner, guys.

[Saint]

color saint in blue while youre at it

[Saint]

it means we had a role we passed along, obviously

[Saint]

q21, by all accounts, still not seeing any case on me

[Saint]

yeah, but IAI, with a driver in the game...

[Saint]

I don't really have the mindset ATM to do a full post, but after skimming:

*quadz - When did "old stuff" mean "irrelevant"? And more to the point, have you even DONE anything relevant enough to change these reads?

*IAI - Why not vote quadz? Regardless of what you think of tmh's alignment, wouldn't you rather lynch someone who has been scummy on his own than based on tenuous connections?

[Saint]

I think you missed what I was saying there.

Rather than gamble on TMH's alignment AND associative tells - which tbqh I've never put a lot of stock in - why not go with someone who is independently scummy? It seems like a more sure bet.

[Saint]

I FEEL LIKE IAI IS MAKING ASSOCIATIVE TELLS WITH QUADZ, REVERSING IT MAKES SENSE - SEE IF Q21 JUMPS TO VIA QUARANTINE, ALSO REDCOYOTE MIGHT BUS IF HE IS SCUM. I'M ON MY PHONE. SORRY, ABOUT THE CAPS AND QUARANTINE SHOULD READ REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY ...:.................. I disagree about assossiative tells.

[Saint]

I think you missed what I was saying there.

Rather than gamble on TMH's alignment AND associative tells - which tbqh I've never put a lot of stock in - why not go with someone who is independently scummy? It seems like a more sure bet.

I hear you, and the honest truth is that TMH is the only person I feel is a sure bet.
(...)
Question back at you, are you having trouble looking at my analysis on q21 seriously because of your belief that TMH is innocent?

No, I'm having trouble looking at your analysis on q21 because you're basing it on something that may not be true and you're refusing to consider that you could be wrong. Now you tell me which alignment is more likely to hold onto a case and try for a certain lynch without considering the possibility that they're wrong.

How about starting with who do you think TMH's scum partners are,

assuming he is scum of course

?

Just--like--that. So I know you're doing it intentionally.

I see your meta instance and don't care. There you were saying you're incredisure someone is scum; here you're saying it's so much of a bygone conclusion you're willing to support other arguments on it.

pops is saying stupid things so I feel no need to step in there.

I think the scum must've known Parama had the Doctor ability, because that shot was completely uncalled for and no one here wants to defend it after the fact except for Vi. That speaks volumes to me. It tells me that scum majorly influenced that shot and are trying to skirt the issue entirely.

It was actually kind of obvious that Parama had the Doctor ability...
Also, "completely uncalled for"?

It doesn't mean irrelevant. It means incomplete. As for your second question, I don't think I've been scummy at all; I haven't changed my playstyle (consciously, at least) for the entire course of the game, so I'm not sure why the stuff I'm doing now is getting me scumpoints, when the same playstyle read as town earlier.

I'm only missing ten pages and I have no reason to believe you were an angel during that time.

You keep harping on the Town read I got from the first ten pages and maybe your first three posts or so as some kind of giant contradicting evidence. If this is your best idea of a defense, I don't need to hear anything more from you.

quadz is the lynch for Today.

That means IAI needs to stop trying to worm out of not saying anything about him and put that vote down.

I missed a few posts last night, brb...

[Saint]

Ludicrously controversial things being where you're saying "TMH is town," I imagine? If that is what you're talking about, why aren't you asking the whole rest of the playerlist about this? I haven't seen ANYONE comment on it.

Hey RedCoyote. Hey IAI. Hey q21. You don't exist. Sorry to break the news.
I know I just said I had nothing else to say to quadz, but that one made me laugh.

The distancing is from players being on wagons that aren't going anywhere.

What gives you the impression that the quadz wagon isn't going anywhere?

Do you have any conclusions regarding where your vote should go yet?

Why does everyone love ckd as town so much?

Look at ckd 45 and ckd 74. (This was before the mod clarified that the Virus could be passed between factions.) If there's only one scumteam in this game, I heavily doubt ckd would have said this. If there's more than one scumteam in the game, not so much. Since there's no proof (albeit a decent suspicion at this point) of the latter, I'm fine with keeping him off the kill list. Without looking at my notes, I don't remember disliking ckd overmuch until he started whining in four out of every five posts.

---

q21 vs. Saintcolow (1639) - The last sentence would make more sense if "imagine" was in sarcastitalics. I don't understand what he was saying in the third-from-last sentence, though, so etc.

The second paragraph is less Too Townie and more a policy lynch, but you got the general idea.

The second quote definitely says nothing about a Furc-policy lynch, although I'm mildly curious as to whether Bunnylover ever did give those reasons. Furcolow is being indignant because he knows he's playing like his Town meta. (Actually, I think I derive a meta-Towntell for Furcolow in this... Not that you'll take my word for it.)

What did you think about Saint before that post, and why was that one post in particular enough to change your mind?

---

I'm actually kind of amused that Furcolow is scumhunting his hydra partner

Of course I don't guarantee

[themanhimself]

's scum, but it's a smidge better than guaranteeing that both RC and quadz are scum (unless you have inside information that is).

And when I

guarantee

that both you and quadz are scum I'll let you know.

The rest of the RedCoyote quotefest is either irrelevant or not convincing at all, so I'll spare everyone.

I have seemed to notice you

[defending]

more than I remember seeing from you. I'm not sure if that's my bad memory or there being more of "that type of player" in this game than I am used to.

You've only seen me in one other game, filled with n00bs, on Day 1, with so much lunacy going around that I stopped trying, in my last game before I took a much-needed break. So etc.

[Saint]

I like my vote where it is. I have nothing new to say.

You're voting someone who's not going to get lynched and making no effort to change that?

[Saint]

I like my vote where it is. I have nothing new to say.

You're voting someone who's not going to get lynched and making no effort to change that?

Why is he not getting lynched?

I can give you my reason - I'm not sold on him being scum.

I can't say everyone else's reasons but I can point out that there's no drive to lynch him.

[Saint]

furcolow scumhunting partner?!?!

VI:

Well, just because I know someone is "clear", that doesn't mean that they're perfect, or that they are properly lynching scum. I can still speak out against your opinion, even if you're on my side, that of the town side.

[Saint]

DGB is waffling scum
but I've seen them not contribute as town
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Saint]

watch Q21 bus
RC directed him to do so
I predicted this
let me find the post

Unvote

;

vote: quadz

Can't find it yet, but notice in his #46 in iso how he is coaching quadz, then he lays down an RVS style vote on him ....

bussing, or bandwagonning for the sake of bandwagonning? i'll let you decide
i doubt it's null.

The obvious solution, q, is to rid ourselves of theman right now. Listen, even those that don't support lynching him admit that we'll probably lose the dayvig ability. I have seen nothing but whispers that imply that the Virus or the dayvig abilities are coming back, so I have no real reason to believe they will again.

Also, from the same post, notice his buddying tone with Q21?
They are bussing quadz.

Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

Huh? Maybe you have more information on Parama, but I don't. Parama's ability in no way confirms him as any alignment as far as I'm concerned, so I don't see how you can validly use this against quadz.

Notice him defending quadz here from an associative tell, thus making one with him himself?

We have a week till deadline. I support the Quadz, Wrath and to an extent the TMH wagons. Implosion, I AM, Bunny and Q21 need to switch their votes to one of those 3. DGB needs to vote.

Personally I like the Quadz lynch and I'd like to see him flip today.

Perhaps this is the post I remember? It's not worded how I remember, though.

*IAI - Why not vote quadz? Regardless of what you think of tmh's alignment, wouldn't you rather lynch someone who has been scummy on his own than based on tenuous connections?

That was what I was doing with my vote on Bunnylover. But that wagon emptied except for me.

Everyone outside of you and Pops seems to think TMH is scum. There has to be a fair amount of town in that group that believe that way. It got me to thinking, if we are right, and I am fairly confident that we are, who could be his partners? Who does not seem to be on his scumteam? Well I told the group who I thought is or might be on his scumteam. I do not think Diddin, WC, nor your slot is (and know that I am not) based on the conversations TMH put forward. Everyone else is still up in the air.

With that said, I would like to see a q21 wagon get going. If that does not, at least I got this concern on record for when TMH does flip.

PS - Quadz I have been going back and forth on today. Based on the TMH connections (doubting WC is his teammate), I would actually push for quadz over WC at the deadline now. (Hint to Quadz, hop on the q21 bandwagon.)

PPS - "We're going to need" that tomorrow. Not Town is going to need it, we are. Message sent....and now read loud and clear by this poster.

And Diddin can die tomorrow. IOW, lay off Diddin for now, I need his dayvig and then we can attack his "easy target" slot tomorrow.

I'm sure about this one. Two scum. Bank on it.

I FOUND IT
IT WAS ACTUALLY IAI
"Quadz, hop on the Q21 bandwagon"
to me it is scumcoaching

q21

to hop on the

quadz bandwagon

reverse psychology?

Sorry that I thought it was RC
Actually reading somewhat more town on him than I had before, and less on IAI
which makes me like DGB's slot, and I honestly didn't have reservations about it like VI does
DGB has basically said IAI/RC
I like 50/50 lynches

but quadz first, because it is a

very

polarizing flip

[Saint]

Consider this

FOS Quadz

as an L-1 vote. Next FOS/Vote should call for a claim.

I am thinking at this point if there is a claim, that quadz should not say what the ability is. The person who passed the role could verify that the claim does exist. At this point we go with further discussion as needed.

This sounds like scumcoaching to me

[Saint]

FOS IAI

[Saint]

unvote

[Saint]

I'm not saying DETER THE WAGON, THERE ARE SCUM AFLOAT, but I really just want a little more discussion.

[Saint]

Consider this

FOS Quadz

as an L-1 vote. Next FOS/Vote should call for a claim.

I am thinking at this point if there is a claim, that quadz should not say what the ability is. The person who passed the role could verify that the claim does exist. At this point we go with further discussion as needed.

This sounds like scumcoaching to me

AGREED. That's the sort of scumtell I love.

check the one where he tells quadz where to vote at the end of my wall
i'm lovin' this.

[Saint]

Well, if it was up to me, the wagon would be on RC/IAI as that is more 50/50 like you've pointed out
HOWEVER, that isn't going to happen, nor do I want it to happen (yet), and losing a VT is no problemo

Also, I doubt he's even going to flip VT
Your vote isn't on him?

[Saint]

do it

[Saint]

shotgun hammer
*holds finger to nose*

[Saint]

I KNOW, RIGHT?
f5 f5 f5 f5

[Saint]

tmh, care to join?

[Saint]

LMP, way to redeem yourself right here

[Saint]

going once.... going twice....

[Saint]

I know, kunk, they're taking forever
Go ahead and type up a modscene

[Saint]

========[]
*cue jeopardy music*

[Saint]

LynchMePls browsing the thread, and not posting, is noted
why don't you? The WC wagon isn't going anywhere.

[Saint]

MAJOR FOS IS ON YOU SITTING ON A 2 PERSON WAGON AND NOT VOTING OUR LYNCH
WC, if quadz isn't wagonned, who do you think is going to be?
Who has the next most votes?
hmmmm

Now I see why TMH is happy with his vote, because he is trying to flip it onto town.
If there wasn't a bus driver ability I'd be ready to write off one of Diddin/TMH, honestly.
The way TMH is acting, I can pretty much guess who is scum.

[Saint]

I have all day to baby-this-wagon and gain-a-hammer.
Literally all day. No obligations. All the free time in the world.

[Saint]

I already claimed the hammer. Are you dense?

[Saint]

and it's not my wagon, it's Vi's. Furthermore, I typically hammer

as town

if you had any meta on me whatsoever.
I have only hammered as scum once, and it was without a case. I have made an ample case on quadz myself, regardless of what Vi has done, and she has

put in work

.

[Saint]

You have done nothing pro-town all game. If you are town, you are literally worse than I am for a town's health and sanity. Not only have you tried to spotlight, taking the dayvig for yourself out of greed, but you wasted it completely. The only logical explanations for this are:

1) you suck as town
2) you are scum

[Saint]

let me consult the player list. What will I have to do to get you to put him at L-1? I view you as town, as does Vi, and that is two town reads on you from the same slot. Scum, though, have been trying to push your mislynch all game. Do you not agree with that?

I'll give you reads on EVERYONE.
LynchMePls - scum
RedCoyote - scum
themanhimself - scum
DrippingGoofball - dgb is dgb
WrathChild - town
curiouskarmadog - scum
quadz08 - scum
Nero Cain - feels town; is likely town
q21 - I used to believe he was town, but I'm less sure now, he has a few tells
diddin - town if TMH is scum, likely town
popsofctown - moderately middling, used to believe was scum, not sure now
Bunnylover - leaning scum
I Am Innocent - leaning scum heavily
StrangerCoug - leaning town
Implosion - town
nhammen - null
Saint - town

[Saint]

VOTE: Saint
This is the insane and non-sensical behavior of scum pretending they're a troll so that they can get away with being scummy

You mean what you're doing?
I know you didn't, but that's what you're doing.

[Saint]

well, LMP might not be scum, but he did lurk the forum and not post

[Saint]

vote: quadz

Fine, L-1, someone else can hammer
I wanted this hammer really badly
but lynching scum is good enough

[Saint]

Nice to see I'm not the only one thinking of Moai's plan. *snips original post*

Saint did not pass anything N2.

Saint passed something to q21 N1. (It seemed like a good idea at the time.)

I'm going to hold off my vote until a certain someone else posts. (not Furcolow)

[Saint]

Re: Kill flavors - Purged has definitely been aiming for scum. I'm waiting on pops to speak up about it, because Goofball was the person I was thinking of in my previous post.

Re: Disappearing Dayvig - It looks incredibly bad but the giveaway would be invalid if tmh is scum WITH RedCoyote. With that said, there's no reason tmh-scum couldn't have sent it to diddin instead, so that detail doesn't actually mean anything in practice.

Nero Cain's vote is terrible - in no small part because if there IS only one scumgroup ckd lands one of my top Town reads - and pending what pops says I'm willing to jump that wagon. This "why me, go look at tmh" defense speaks for itself.

(Bless her heart for the effort, but boy she almost botched something up real bad! When I went off on her a bit, she asked me if anyone ever got divorced over Mafiascum!!! )

There have been a few romantic breakups and at least one hookup, but no divorces. This is partly because husbands and wives play together. You should bring her over.

Also, is there a reason why TMH is still alive? Is he, like, so pro-town that he can shoot townies and wagon them all day long with impunity?

1) He was holding the Dayvig ability, which we kind of wanted to stay in the game.
2) I was pushing him as innocent D2, although I'm pretty sure he was more off the table for the dayvig ability. >_>

QUIT POSTING SO FAST DARNIT

[Saint]

No one suspected RedCoyote, the the scumputer ferreted him out. Using common arguments, I doubt he would have been lynched, ever.

lies

also deceit

[Saint]

Also, is there a reason why TMH is still alive? Is he, like, so pro-town that he can shoot townies and wagon them all day long with impunity? Because so far, townies are dying, and the scumz aren't. This is a scumteam that is not bus'ing. Distancing maybe, but not significantly bus'ing.

Waiting to see if the virus is active. If it is, we can try to eliminate both Nero and TMH, and if the dayvig still exists, we can eliminate Wrath as well. Hmmm... I never did that reread of Nero I was planning on.

You're not reading. tmh tossed the dayvig.

ckd is a blatant Town-read and lynching him is a terrible idea. Stop suggesting it.

TMH said that he passed theh dayvig to RedCoyote???

That's right, but see my two-posts-back.

[Saint]

Yes TMH sent it to RC

Could he be lying?

I MAKE POSTS

READ THEM

---

I'm pretty sure Bunnylover is misunderstanding what a Win Condition and a factional kill are. >_>

and we move to D4 and I send the treestump to CKD if TMH flips scum.

Thoughts?

I was with you until here.

Did you even read why I'm going to such lengths to call ckd Town? I mean I know I'm the same crazy who's calling tmh Town but really.

[Saint]

IAI, what's the point of asking for thoughts if you're not going to do anything with themmmmmmmmm

I swear they're even SANE this time

[Saint]

Why does everyone love ckd as town so much?

Look at ckd 45 and ckd 74. (This was before the mod clarified that the Virus could be passed between factions.) If there's only one scumteam in this game, I heavily doubt ckd would have said this. If there's more than one scumteam in the game, not so much. Since there's no proof (albeit a decent suspicion at this point) of the latter, I'm fine with keeping him off the kill list. Without looking at my notes, I don't remember disliking ckd overmuch until he started whining in four out of every five posts.

[Saint]

But isn't it possible for a power to make someone a SK/Survivor/etc.
This is why I think that YU9876414 - AntB [Neutral Survivor, formerly Eruci.][Executed by Judges.][Day 1.]
To me that seems like AntB had a role that made him a Neutral Survivor.
But I'm probably overthinking it.

People who are modkilled for breaking rules are reverted to Neutral Survivors so that they cannot win no matter what happens.

Why are we assuming TMH is telling the truth?
Did we all forget that RC flipped Scum?
Which would mean Scum would try to say, "OH I PASSED MY ABILITY TO RC"
This to me is Scum trying to say, "I can't be scum because I passed my ability to a known scum"

I said this already...

I don't really understand the diddin kill either tbh.

[Saint]

apparently scum are just going to mass onto the TMH wagon. I don't really blame them, but scummy=/= scum.

[Saint]

I don't see how you can associate CKD not sending in an action with TMH's guilty. That really just doesn't make sense to me

at all

.

[Saint]

RedCoyote did not dare speak Nero Cain's name. They are scumpalz 4 shure.

If the virus and daykill are whipedout then...idk it seems like the game could be unbalanced without a mafia kill and he's said some pretty questionable things about it (the kill).

Can you elaborate on this, please? To me, this sounds like you have information about scumkills that I didn't get in my role PM...

Oh hai liar scum.

Wait. So you go through RC's 56 posts and find the one, solitary time where he makes any sort of comment to you (still doesn't mention you're name, btw) and use that to refute the point that he didn't interact with you. Right, is it just me or is that an unnaturally desperate attempt at defence?

It's not just you.

[Saint]

I don't think I'm voting.

Vote: Nero Cain

(L-something)

[Saint]

Oh wait - do we know if scum has daytalk?

Already asked a while ago, never received an answer.

Saint, not that I disagree with your vote, but can you explain your stance on TMH vs. Nero Cain?

My stance on why TMH is more likely Town in spite of being the most grandiose idiot in the world has been outlined in my catchup posts here, here, here, and here. I would also like to point out that RedCoyote-now-confirmed-scum tried to use a faulty experience-based argument against him. However, tmh's refusal to help himself (and continuing to actively harm Town) is making me get a bit fed up with defending him. I still don't want to push for his lynch, but I can't blame the people who ARE any more.

Nero Cain was an unreadable-leaning-Town read for a while, then as D2 continued he started to look progressively scummier, and his defense now is just really bad.

[Saint]

Would like to see everyone's Top 3 suspects please. Also please chime in if I should or should not send the TreeStump to the next scummiest player after TMH, being that TMH is the likely lynch today.

I don't care about the Tree Stump.

Reads haven't changed a lot; they're in order below.

I prefer these lynches

*Nero Cain
*LynchMePlz

I'm not really sure about these people

*q21
*I Am Innocent

I think these people are more likely Town, although just by the numbers I'm probably wrong about at least one of them :\

*EtherealCookie/nhammen
*popsofctown
*themanhimself

I do not and will not support the lynch of these people

*WrathChild (not sure which tier to place him in)
*curiouskarmadog
*StrangerCoug
|<gap>|
*Bunnylover
*implosion
*TheLonging/Lateralus22/DrippingGoofball (but only because of the RedCoyote shot)

[Saint]

TMH
Saint
q21
CKD
DGB
Wrath

These guys are all tied up together.

Nero Cain is so awesome he can OMGUS six people at once.

Also lol at "desperate defense".

[Saint]

I don't see how you can associate CKD not sending in an action with TMH's guilty. That really just doesn't make sense to me .

#1 CKD was ordered to send his ability to TMH and agreed to do so
#2 Scum cannot send standard abilities to their teammates
#3

The only loophole

left if CKD and TMH are scum teammates is to not send it to anybody and say you forgot to send it, though it was stressed over and over again in the thread.
#4 CKD said he forgot to send it.

Still not make sense to you

at all

?

PS - Factor in we know (if TMH is scum) that RC was ready to bus him that day. Which makes me wonder if scum was worried about #2...

CKD not sending it in is not indicative of TMH's alignment AT ALL.
Scum or town, he really may have just not sent an action in. This happened in an ongoing game I was in that I'm not going to talk about, and it lead to a mislynch. I don't want to repeat that scenario.

[Saint]

First off, I believe CKD is anti-town and needs to be lynched for not sending an action in. I do not believe he did that on purpose, though it is possible that the scenario in which you laid out his damnation through the lack of being able to send it to who we told him to send it to is viable, I do not want to just quickly rush into this. It was getting ridiculously close to mylo/lylo from my perspective, and I want to take this cycle slow. I am suspicious of everyone jumping onto TMH because he feels like a misguided townie to me. However, in this scenario, I suppose noone is truly a townie. Sure, we have been a townie, and we have had a role, but with everything getting passed along, perhaps you are right IAI.

The thing is, though, is that Q21 is one of my top suspects, when I had an initial town read on him to the point where we passed something to him. We were going to pass to MoI, but I had a bad feeling about it, so I decided on Q21. It's funny, because I'm still not even that sure of my top suspect.

Pops was an initial scum read, and I have shifted him towards being in the neutral category as well. I disagree somewhat with Vi on Bunnylover, I feel that slot could be scum. I agree with Vi on LynchMePlz. That slot is definitely lynch worthy, has been anti-town from my perspective, and hasn't really made any effort in terms of scumhunting.

IAI, what do you think about Q21's freudian slip daying DarlaBlueEyes (He said "DBE"), instead of DGB, when DBE was a town-aligned-doctor, and DGB just shot scum last night with her vig shot. Do you feel like he slipped as scum here?

I do. the problem is the town don't believe it.

[Saint]

unvote: nero cain;
vote: q21

I might pull this vote off, Vi might pull this vote off, but I really implore you all to join me on this.
Not only would his flipping of scum confirm us, scum will have to waste a night kill on us. NK on Furcolow is pro-town.

[Saint]

#4 CKD said he forgot to send it.

hoping to get to this game today...

saw this and it popped out as super scummy.

is that what I said?...or is it that I havent been on the site until sunday

and I MISSED getting in my choice

? being the good little scum hunter you want everyone to believe you are, I assume you checked to see if I was lying??? no? OOOOhhh, you rather misrepresent me and lie...

Yet you posted

6 minutes

after the mod opened up the thread??? Doesn't work that way bud, sorry.

and 40 minutes after deadline what is your point? and I notice how you scooted around the point that you lied...

I didnt say I forgot...i said I missed...

for I did...and I also noticed how you didnt mention that you meta-ed my current games to see if yes, i indeed was

[n't]

around until last night.

anyway....need to catch up....


so if tmh flips town, why are you giving me the treestump? am I still scum either way?...bullshit and a scum bag.

It's worth mentioning that ckd actually was absent in all three of his games from Wednesday to Sunday, and his only post on Tuesday was to say he was behind in this game.

That CAN be faked, but posting almost literally nothing in three games - two of which were not in Night - for six days is extreme even for someone trying to cover for being Mafia.

It's still possible that it was a scumtactic and/or his partners sent in "No Action" or whatever for him, but this V/LA was declared well in advance of this game's N2, so it's not likely.

---

IAI - I don't remember if I asked for your reasons for Saint-scum, but please give them.

---

Furcolow - *sigh*

[Saint]

You don't see TMH as a VI?
Vi, why the sigh?
Are you saying you don't believe Q21 is scum, or are you sighing because I am voting him

for the wrong reason

?

[Saint]

Vi, message for you in hydraville
I am going out for a little bit, take the wheels.

[Saint]

Vi, why the sigh?
Are you saying you don't believe Q21 is scum, or are you sighing because I am voting him

for the wrong reason

?

I'm not even sure what your reasons are...
I can go either way on him. He committed one of my personal scumtells and I don't like his posting in general, but something doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm being oversentimental. <notices something while reading> Or it could be because of people saying things like this--

q21 v.s. Saint is probably town v.s. town.

Oh, never mind then.

q21's first set of suspects is one I have seen scum do, have a large list, and include a teammate in the "less so" group. That less so group had TMH, and EC/nhammen.

I... don't see anything like that in q21's posts. Where is it?

But this instance of RedCoyote Spreading the Suspicion is interesting to look at.

God, I can't get over how absolutely ridiculous that shot was. Just reading over the entire day has really struck that nerve again, you know, in case I didn't hammer that point home enough. I guess I'm just mostly pissed that I didn't get a word in edgewise while whoever "voted" for Parama because they were annoyed with him just lost us the Doctor ability. pops, you wanted to know why theman shot with 6/17 people chiming in?

Because he's scum (as are you probably for still trying to sell the idea that he's town).

Why does everyone love ckd as town so much? Can we talk about that? Can I do like IAI and get people to state why it is they didn't advocate such an obvious shot. I mean, I brought this up way back at the start of the day. There were only two people who wanted ckd shot that I could tell. Me and implosion.

Everyone who picked ckd to be shot (all townies)

• RC
  
• implosion

Everyone who picked Parama (

the entire scumteam

almost the entire scumteam, and the group we are definitely lynching from today, no questions asked)

• Bunny
  
• theman
  
• WC
  
• ckd
  
• quadz
  
• SC

quadz and SC were the weird ones in that group, btw. quadz, as far as I know, wasn't interested in Parama being shot until Darla flipped. quadz, is this true? SC, you threw Parama in at the end of your post, but the people you wanted shot before Parama (theman and Saint) were fairly unreasonable. Saint may have been shot, but I think you knew it was really between Parama, Bunny, and WC. Did you not?

So TMH is still ludicrously scum, I'm scum with TMH, ckd is scum, implosion is Town, the list you see there is almost the entire scumteam... according to RedCoyote.

The only thing I'd agree with is implosion-Town. Normally you can see a scumpartner in the larger list, but I don't really think any of them are scum now that quadz is out.

-----

Vi, you pushed the quadz lynch hard yesterday. You are now pushing Nero which I got a town read on. Your list of reads are almost a complete opposite of mine. You are defending CKD and TMH, my two biggest scum reads. You have a strong reputation, and I think pretty highly of myself, so I just can't see how two smart townies could be so far off this far into the game.

I absolutely pushed the quadz lynch hard Yesterday. I would do it again. I acknowledge that I had an unreadable-leaning-Town read on Nero Cain until here--

*Nero Cain - His posts have gone from reading like cocky Town to reckless scum (765 with "sorry but you feel like opportunistic scum"

[who apologizes to scum?]

, 858 and 859, 989 looks hilariously bad on its face).

--and nothing he's said Today, particularly in response to Goofy's inquisition, has looked Town-motivated at all.

I've said at no small length WHY I'm defending ckd and tmh. Acknowledge that my position is reasonable or point out why it isn't.

While there's something to be said for scum being more likely to push blatantly wrong ideas, that's also to some degree why I'm suspicious of you. I acknowledge you get brownie points for that first post Today, but the rest doesn't match and AFAIK you're still pushing easy mislynches. Plus if you are Town you would not be the first person to wonder what kind of drugs I'm on, so etc.

Cut by Nero Cain, his defense is still bad and etc.

I think Goofball's flip (or lack thereof) will make clear how many anti-Town groups there are in this game. For now there's probably no reason to worry about more than one.

[Saint]

Hey DGB, wanna answer me?

[about how many abilities Goofy had N2]

Shouldn't YOU know the answer???

No he shouldn't.

[Saint]

town need to be very careful with their voting, seriously guys

[Saint]

About time.

Saint did not have anything to pass Night 2.

----

So, IAI. This is the part where I apologize to you and the exasperated dead Townies watching from the sidelines, what with being as wrong as possible

two

three times in a row. I'm willing to stop trying to strike out on my own and start working with you and Goofball. I'm sure you're not going to be particularly quick to trust me at this point, but I think I can get you to come around to it. In the meantime, etc.

[Saint]

Dayvig is not in the void.

...

[Saint]

It's in play. Let's decide who we want to dayvig, AND who we want to lynch.

It doesn't work like that.
The dayvig ability requires the Virus. I don't see a Virus around. The dayvig ability, if it is in the game, is presently useless.

But more importantly, consider the following.

*themanhimself claimed to have sent the Dayvig ability to RedCoyote (scum). Since RedCoyote got vigged that same Night, it would have gone to the Void if this story is true.
*themanhimself flipped scum, which (aside from making him untrustworthy in general) means that he could not have passed the Dayvig to RedCoyote in the first place.
*This means that one of two things happened - either he passed it to the other kill target (which the scum had the advantage of knowing ahead of time), or it was passed to a living Townie.
*There was no counterclaim from any Townie when themanhimself said the ability passed into the Void (and themanhimself would have to be stupid to claim he sent an ability to the Void when someone could counterclaim).
*Therefore the Dayvig ability SHOULD be in the Void.

*Moreover, we can assume that the scum WANTED the Dayvig passed to the Void, given the claim and what most likely happened.
*With that in mind, if the scum had the chance to make it so that the Dayvig could return to the game, they would pass it up - they wanted it out of the game for a reason.
*That scum motivation PLUS the contradiction of what we know should be true leads to my conclusion that

WrathChild is scum lying about the Dayvig not being in the Void.

*This line of thought ALSO leads to a conclusion that whoever currently has the Void Collector ability was the kill target last Night.

Oh right, before I forget. Saint had an ability to pass last Night.

[Saint]

HAI YOUZ GUYS

[Saint]

This bit confuses me a little. I guess the confusion comes in where I agree that scum would want the dayvig to stay in the void and would therefore pass up the chance to retrieve it... but how do we know the scum ever had te chance to retrieve it. The retriever could have been with a townie yesterday and that townie could have taken the dayvig and Wrath's statement that it isn't in the void is perfectly reasonable. Did I somehow miss something here.
I think part of the confusion arises from my townread of Wrath which comes from his rather aggressive attack on the wagon that was taking pressure OFF him day 2 (the quadz wagon).

The assumption here is that WrathChild had the Void Collector N3 and when he said that the Dayvig was in the Void in post 1997 he actually knew what he was talking about.

If that's not the case, then at least I sounded smart and edgy for one or two posts.

[Saint]

DGB, you have bunny at 20+20, whenever it is really 20+20+40 on your list. Check it again. I was wondering how bunnylover went from #3 or #4 before, to at the bottom on this one. It didn't make any sense, and checking your list, either your math is off or your method is flawed. I'm assuming your math is off.

Nhammen did, in fact, cycle to us. I know Vi has claimed this, but I will confirm it. Our ability was fairly pro-town, and I'm sure scum are aware it is in the game, so what is the point in not claiming it?

EBWOP: dammit, dgb, way to beat me

[Saint]

whoah, nelly, let's hash this out first, pops.

[Saint]

I would be apt to hearing them, though I can't find that. If anyone was, it would be hard to really catch them up in it, as they would be having a buddy claim to help them, or have passed it to the void. Hell, maybe even both.

I don't see how that is a logical method for catching anyone, and I am honestly shifting more towards following your wagon analysis. I do, however, wish that CKD was a little higher up on that list. Just because he has been staying out of the action in voting is not a result of that he hasn't WANTED to be voting, he had the treestump during our most hectic dayphase if you'll recall.

Therefore, I feel you should give people points when they gain the treestump ability, or count their FoS as an actual vote. In the case of CKD, after ISOing him, I actually am beginning to disagree with myself.

When he had the stump, he was pro-TMH wagon and against the wagon on DBE. He also has appeared to have been actually snarky, and has done some scumhunting. I've got to say I'm reading CKD as town, sadly. I was pretty sure he was scum, too, but I just can't take him pushing TMH as bussing.

In his iso, I saw he wanted to know why I was reserved with my votes. I'm sad that I missed this, or perhaps I already responded to it, but in case I didn't, I will now. I've been trying to improve my play, and since we are in such a precarious position, I don't want to be the reason that we lose. Hence why I'm trying to put in work, scumhunt, iso people, and respond to questions. I'm also trying to pick apart peoples' arguments (like how I noticed DGB's math wasn't adding up)

CKD, seeing as I have a newfound-town read on you, who are you most suspicious of, and why?

[Saint]

I passed to implosion on night 2.

Vote CKD

Oh wait, I can't do that. Thanks IAI... I'd be contemplating CKD (obviously) or Saint if I had a vote.

Now that I'm seeing this, though, and considering he has the treestump I am honestly upset. I really wish we could lynch Q21 today. I have a case made up in my head, but it is relatively weak from other peoples' perspectives (i'm fairly sure), and I can't really elaborate without outting information.

Q21 attacking CKD and I here, or mudslinging, whatever you want to call it, is baseless. The reason I find it to be ill-advised is because he isn't actually scumhunting with this comment, simply saying my vote would be on X without any reasoning is akin to the RVS which shouldn't be sunk back into on page 80 in a large theme.

Compounding this with my newfound town read on CKD and I'm confounded as to how Q21 can't be seen as scummy.