Mini 1097: Simple Mafia

[Plum]

VOTE: Internet Stranger

Why no vote thar, my friend?

[Plum]

LC, why do you want me to vote you?

[Plum]

Unvote; Vote: LC

Thanks, but you're not Plum.

[Plum]

Well yes, but you seemed a bit eager that I make good on your comment's suggested end.

[Plum]

Let's have a claim ASAP and then we can discuss hammering.

[Plum]

Because he's at L-1 and I'd like to see a claim and evaluate including that before roping him up. In general I would be for such an act, but I am a slightly cautious fish, and doing this will give me a better grasp on LC and the game in general.

[Plum]

Not claiming for such a terrible wagon.

Wrong answer.

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.

Anyone have something pressing to say before a hammer? Because I'll probably just go over the last three pages once more, comment, and do just that, so.

[Plum]

The fact that you didn't claim

is

relevant. And scummy.

[Plum]

Hey, IS, I'm not scum. Guderian, however, might very very well be. Lots of pointless sparring with LC and always hedging. For example:

I like the LC wagon, but the two posts Jerbs has given have given me more scum vibes then all of LC's rolled into one.

Always excusing himself, FOSing LC, avoiding voting him for cintrived reasons.

VOTE: Guderian

[Plum]

Dammit, TBM, you don't actually think I'm

thick

.

[Plum]

Given the way LC went down, I'd expect his buddy to reluctantly bus him - that is, probably get a vote on in the middle of the wagon,

after

he realizes that LC's demise is unavoidable.

^Noted for future reference as a potential chainsaw if IS ever flips scum.

Pointed at Guderian. Easy painless distancing (given the premise that IS is Town, which is extremely likely so we'll roll with that as fact in this).

The series of posts starting around Post #25 smacks of contrived bantering, culminating in an FOS. On scum. While keeping his vote elsewhere. For LC being 'deliberately obtuse'. Hedging his bets in case IS's declaration bears fruit in an LC wagon).

a. thats nice.
b. thats nice.
c. no one cares.

Weird attempt to use other players meta to make yourself pro-town?

WHILE KEEPING HIS VOTE ON JERBS. Which was, if you recall, an RVS-style vote. He tried to justify it afterwards by referring to vaguely qualified feelings he hadn't referenced before:

I like the LC wagon, but the two posts Jerbs has given have given me more scum vibes then all of LC's rolled into one.

My question was directed to thebuttonman. He makes plenty of sweeping statements, with no conclusion. TBM, what is you final verdict/reason for pointing out all those things in #37.

There's two pages, count the votes yourself.

LC has three votes. Why are you afraid to hammer him?

WHILE NOT VOTING HIM. When LC himself calls Guderian out on this, Guderian votes LC straightaway.

I wonder which scumbag is going to sheepishly show up and bus their partner?

Irony right here.

I would like to note who didn't vote him. You. So I'm not sure what youre trying to pull here.

And in context you find this scummy because . . . ? I'm saying that you deliberately avoided voting LC when his wagon was still in doubt (as to whether it was going to go all the way).

[Plum]

Why did I 'wait around'? I wanted to go over things once properly and see if anyone else had anything pressing to say. It so happened that I had an extremely busy Sunday so I was in fact unavailable to hammer at the game's absolute nearliest convenience.

Plum's logic looks good, but makes little sense.

What's this mean?

I dont think his wagon was certain before I put the vote on him.

Well bully for you, it's a moderately subjective measurement. But with three votes on and one more player seeming willing, and five to lynch, it would begin to look nigh inevitable. Nice trying to claim credit for helping lynch scum when, practically speaking, you mostly grabbed onto the coattails of the wagon after dancing around to LC issue quite a bit.

Love how you immediately cop to voting me if IS is wondering why you're not, so long as you ensure that you have someone else besides you set up for tomorrow.

[Plum]

So why did you vote Nacho first when I already had two votes on me? If it's immaterial, why not just go with the flow and lynch the one of your top candidates who would be quickest to lynch?

Answer: Because you wanted to set up two lynches: one for today and one for tomorrow, and it was immaterial which one got done today but not immaterial that you set up a strong position on both so you could vote whichever one was left the next day without getting questioned too much.

[Plum]

So it's not immaterial?

Attacking, or distancing? I love how you cite it that way, as if to convince us you couldn't possiby be buddies with LC.

Fun as this is, I'll let some others weigh in before I consider continuing what looks to be turning into some circular arguments.

[Plum]

Guderian guns Jerbs first, then starts switching off to Lord Cable. Given Jerbs was the Night 1 kill, Guderian as scum makes no sense to me.

Why not? It was an RVS-style vote (later he tried to make it seem like something more, but he never pushed Jerbs, really) and Jerbs got no attention. I don't think the Jerbs kill correlates either negatively or positively to the possibility of scum-Guderian.

@plum you say you never had a chance at the hammer, how about posts 4-7 (on your iso)? You had plenty of time to think over the hammer...

I posted regarding LC's refusal to claim at 10:56 pm. I got off the computer at probably 1:00 am. That's a little over two hours, and not too many people who might have wanted to weigh in/we'd have wanted to weigh in (like Nacho, maybe, or Jerbs - basically, plenty of people who hadn't been around since the LC wagon took off) had shown up. So I went to sleep and had a busy Sunday, and when I arrived home LC had been hammered. In context, I wanted a little more pre-hammer discussion to go on and figured it was worth waiting a bit more than two odd hours to see if more of that could be accomplished before a hammer. I already knew what I wanted: I wanted LC lynched. The fact that it was four of my posts does't say anything aout realtime timeframe or my intentions in regards to the time spent.

I'll think about TBM; school kept me till about 10 pm and brain's a bit fried.

[Plum]

Lynch.

[Plum]

I can act 'high and mighty' because you're not bothering to pretend to defend yourself. You falsely dismiss the cases against you as if saying that no one believes them makes it true, or makes you less scummy. It doesn't. There's no substantive Town-motivated discussion from you, just the vain hope that empty rhetoric will save you from the noose.

[Plum]

Have so. Reading is tech, scum, but I'll humor you:

Given the way LC went down, I'd expect his buddy to reluctantly bus him - that is, probably get a vote on in the middle of the wagon,

after

he realizes that LC's demise is unavoidable.

^Noted for future reference as a potential chainsaw if IS ever flips scum.

Pointed at Guderian. Easy painless distancing (given the premise that IS is Town, which is extremely likely so we'll roll with that as fact in this).

The series of posts starting around Post #25 smacks of contrived bantering, culminating in an FOS. On scum. While keeping his vote elsewhere. For LC being 'deliberately obtuse'. Hedging his bets in case IS's declaration bears fruit in an LC wagon).

a. thats nice.
b. thats nice.
c. no one cares.

Weird attempt to use other players meta to make yourself pro-town?

WHILE KEEPING HIS VOTE ON JERBS. Which was, if you recall, an RVS-style vote. He tried to justify it afterwards by referring to vaguely qualified feelings he hadn't referenced before:

I like the LC wagon, but the two posts Jerbs has given have given me more scum vibes then all of LC's rolled into one.

My question was directed to thebuttonman. He makes plenty of sweeping statements, with no conclusion. TBM, what is you final verdict/reason for pointing out all those things in #37.

There's two pages, count the votes yourself.

LC has three votes. Why are you afraid to hammer him?

WHILE NOT VOTING HIM. When LC himself calls Guderian out on this, Guderian votes LC straightaway.

I wonder which scumbag is going to sheepishly show up and bus their partner?

Irony right here.

I would like to note who didn't vote him. You. So I'm not sure what youre trying to pull here.

And in context you find this scummy because . . . ? I'm saying that you deliberately avoided voting LC when his wagon was still in doubt (as to whether it was going to go all the way).

[Plum]

Lets start off with

Unvote: Plum

for now.

@IS, Plum and SC:

How open are you to moving your votes?

1. Why unvote me?

2. Depends. Do you have a better suspectt to suggest? Belligerence is really not my beef with Guderian. His play around the LC wagon was, I think, very suspect, and belligerence &c. really doesn't change that.

@gurd, claim or die.

[Plum]

I think this is related to the generally accepted sorts of talking about other games, which include such things as whether a player is/has been/will be around the site. I think if 'Player X mentioned he'd be V/LA in this other game, so he probably won't be around' is okay, this ought to be as well. In any case TBM is probably the scummiest player around on gameplay and such left anyway, but I'll need to do a proper evaluation of that soon.

Preview Edit: TBM, you thought that Guderian was lying as scum in all those games at once? Or what? That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've been exposed to recently.

[Plum]

...

Yeah no. I am so damn tempted to vote you right here right now just for that. Hammering with a pure policy vote on Day 2 in a 9-player game, even one where scum got lynched Day 1, is not something a Townie with a brain does. Nope. Not a chance. And I have it on good faith that you, dear sir, are in possession of a brain of most excellent quality and must conclude that the likely case is you are currently attempting to use that gray matter for nefarious purposes. But I

will

reread you just for laughs and giggles. Probably after I study for my Calc test.

[Plum]

Prodded, sorry, hold for post.

[Plum]

Button, why'd you random vote IS (after my half-reasoned RVS vote on him) while asking these questions:

VOTE: CooLDoG for sucking.

Is he actually policy worthy or is this just RVS stage stuff.

Anyways, confirm and all that jazz, preemptive OMGUS

vote: Plum

.

You have never played a game with Plum before as far as I can tell so I'm curious why you would assume she's going to vote you.

?

@SC, I wanted him to claim, but after it became apparent that he wouldn't I threw the hammer. That was it.

Previous to your demand on the LC show:

Not claiming for such a terrible wagon.

Needless to say, if I'm a PR and claim, I'm outed and probably useless for the rest of the game. If I'm a VT and claim, mafia won't kill me and town won't trust me. I see no reason why I should claim. Leaving the ambiguity is better.
Besides, PR claims should never be the basis of your lynch decision. I've pushed for lynches on unclaimed players before and have even hammered them from time to time because I felt that a claim was irrelevant - they were just that scummy.

Even though I want to maintain ambiguity? I still stand by my argument that claimign is bad. If we go into
Night with an unclaimed player who is seen as scummy, it leaves WIFOM for scum. They might worry that a
Vig will kill me. They might worry that I'm a powerful PR. Or they might just think I'm VT and worth keeping alive.

A claim will just make night into one of two scenarios instead of opening up cans of WIFOM.

What made you think he'd listen, especially given that you didn't make any real counterarguments to his 'I'm not going to claim' stance:

@Lord cable, how about this: claim or die. Not being trusted for the rest of the game is better then getting hammered. It will cause some problems down the road for the town if you don't claim.

Button, why did you sheep IS and vote me immediately Day 1? You commented on me little if at all Day 1, if I recall, so. Why didn't you attack SC, whom you'd had issues with Day 1?

Also Button - what in the world were your thoughts about Guderian's play, especially his Day 1 play, when you posted this:

Lets start off with

Unvote: Plum

for now.

Re: Guderian He doesn't have enough finished games to really meta him but he has had this style (belligerent, demanding people explain why they are voting him rather then scumhunting) as town before, that combined with the lack of competing wagons so far today leads me to ask the following.

@IS, Plum and SC:

How open are you to moving your votes?

? And who was your top suspect at the time and why? Why did you not speak much if at all about your suspects Day 2?

Also, please answer:

Lets start off with

Unvote: Plum

for now.

@IS, Plum and SC:

How open are you to moving your votes?

1. Why unvote me?

CooLDoG: What exactly were the results of the following:

In light of the Guderian and Plum debate, I'm going to iso both of them right now.

?

tl;dr

- Button,talk. And also, claim please. I have a hammer in hand and am tempted to use it.

[Plum]

I still don't understand why CD is anti-TBM, which worries me a tad. CD, would you hammer TBM at this point and why?

[Plum]

Yeah, CD, you're kinda ridiculous. Answer SC's question, and then I'll string TBM up. Or the 48 hours, whichever comes first.

[Plum]

...