/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)


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Post Post #2150 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:48 am

Post by mith »

"You realize he has just ruled Iam/Plum, SpyreX/Iam, SpyreX/Plum as impossible scumteams, and considerably narrowed his options." - If you're giving out gold stars for narrowing options, I've already narrowed it down to one. But it's irrelevant. PokerFace can rule out all the scumgroups he likes; he only needs one mislynch.

"SO WHO IZ YOU SCUM WITH MITH?" - No one, that's the point. You've got a blindspot for PokerFace/SpyreX for no apparent reason other than that you've decided I must be scum because if you start with the assumption that I'm scum and potentially capable of all sorts of twisted evil genius machinations, you arrive at the conclusion that I
could
have done many of the things in this game as scum. I try to figure out the game and question assumptions ("Does DGB as a Tracker make any sense whatsoever based on her play? No?"), you see hidden information. I can't really argue with that sort of thing other than to say you're wrong and explain my thought processes. I provide evidence of things I absolutely 100% would not have done as scum, you stick your fingers in your ears and say "I'm not going to have that clear him in anyway.".

The thing is, confirmation bias can only take you to "OMG mith could be scum, I wanna lynch him now that would be so coooool." But if I were scum, I would have a partner, and there is no partner that makes any sense. PokerFace? Pretty much guaranteed that one of us dies today, and if it's me there's no way PokerFace survives two more kills, and if it's him I've ruled out every possibility but PokerFace/SpyreX and couldn't survive after SpyreX turned up innocent (I also probably would have counter-claimed you, if that were the cae). SpyreX? What purpose would faking a "I think Fate's lying and iamausername is the Vig, let's see if I can get him lynched without counterclaiming!" strategy serve? I could safely just not counter and likely get PokerFace lynched. iamausername or Plum? Even more ridiculous - PokerFace lynch, or a counterclaim and solid play from my partner either gets you lynched or has you killing PokerFace and SpyreX. You have been through these or similar arguments yourself - you know that these groupings don't make sense. And yet you stick with "but mith must be scum" and ignore the obvious and correct alternative of PokerFace/SpyreX.

I've shown you why PokerFace is scum. I've shown you why SpyreX is scum (and linked it after you ignored it the first time). Aside from the stuff in that post, remember SpyreX flopping about with "but Faaaate, mith said I looked better, and then he called me scum, heeelp" when all the innocents in the town were getting ready to lynch him and his scumbuddy PokerFace?
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Post Post #2151 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:13 am

Post by SpyreX »

The hell flopping about? You mean the whole 'icky' set of posts not ACTUALLY being all the posts but just mine with a little fate nudge in there because he's goading master 9000?

Streetch armstrong you're a hero to kids everywhere.
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Post Post #2152 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:16 am

Post by Patrick »

Votecount

mith (3) -- Fate, SpyreX, PokerFace
PokerFace (1) -- mith

Not voting: Plumegranate, iamausername
6 alive, 4 to lynch.
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Post Post #2153 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:07 am

Post by mith »

Some of these points are weaker/more speculative than I would normally bother with, but I have the luxury of knowing SpyreX/PokerFace is the scum pairing (I'd be dead by now otherwise), and I was inspired this afternoon to "find the scum motivation" and see how Fate's approach works with SpyreX... I could see SpyreX posting some of these things as town, but since I know he's not...

ISO 0 (and following) - Who argued hardest for the Janitor, then put Hoopla at L-1 as the Janitor was used?

ISO 5 - Who said he'd give 2 Trackers and 2 Vigs (the actual setup) or 2 Trackers, 1 Vig, and 1 Hider (just before his scumbuddy fakeclaimgambited Hider)?

ISO 16 - Fate covered this, but soft-defense of DGB ("Hate... but she had a
method
!").

ISO 22 - "Look at these obvious scum over here! I'm going to put Rhinox and Herodotus in pretty colors so they stand out. Oh, btw, vote Hoopla."

ISO 23 - This is a good sequence... calls out the Kmd wagon, with: "I got three responses to the KMD wagon - 2 from people on it, 1 from someone not. The one off of it says its a clear counterwagon and lets it go. The other two go, "Ohh SpyreX there are reaaasons" and give me a little head pat." ...

ISO 24 - "But now I will switch to VV and not explain myself. Even though Rhinox and Herodotus are still obvious scum, and Hoopla hasn't done anything since my vote, I'd rather not be on the lynch wagon when I janitorize her."

ISO 27 - Chances are high that the Janitor will be used? Perhaps because scum had already decided to use it day 1? (WIFOM note: As scum with a Janitor power, I would have urged the Janitor to save the power until scum were about to be lynched - a lot of players struggle with scumhunting until they have a scum flip to work with.)

ISO 31 - Looking back, I'm not sure what persuaded me that this was a valid response, apart from my quest to get DGB deaded. The original apparently incorrect version is worse, but it's still not a particularly town thing to say (and not something he needed to follow through with as scum, knowing a VV flip would be town).

ISO 34 - Curious to mention DGB here; of the six on the list, four are dead and innocent, one is Plum, and the other is DGBscum. Perhaps setting up to hammer on the lurkers later on and getting DGB out of the line of fire (this would especially make sense if the N1 scumkill was tajo, with the goal of confirming tajo to go after those tajo suspected).

ISO 35 - Now he has VV as obvscum (reasons posted so far... VV defending himself with meta?) and Rhinox and zoraster looking scummy...

ISO 36 - ...but goes back to Hoopla with the L-1 so he can Janitor her. That sounds fun.

ISO 41 - Day 2, and after a brief stay on VV (with no reasoning), let's go to Elmo the Vig. "But there's a Tracker result on him, we've got to lynch him!".

ISO 43 - I can imagine the daytalk here... "Uh... SpyreX... we're not going to be able to push a Elmo lynch through, abandon ship." His argument here doesn't make sense, either - he lists Kmd/DGB/VV as "If you'd shot one of them, we'd be cool" has no coherent logic to it. VV would be a "VV is obvscum, obv" sort of thing, but Elmo wasn't suspicious of VV so it doesn't make sense to talk about Elmo shooting him. Kmd is the opposite, with SpyreX giving the 'ole "WTF?" at the Kmd wagon, but Elmo voting him earlier in the day. At least those two had wagons, though; DGB had no wagon on her day 1, wasn't an Elmo suspect, and wasn't on SpyreX's radar at all. Throwing her in makes perfect sense as distancing, though.

ISO 49 - His response to Rhinox's excellent point is to whine about how he's been calling VV scum (but can't show where he has "[led] the charge", because he has posted little reasoning for his VV hate and has instead been bickering with Elmo in a nonsensical fashion).

ISO 51 - I didn't notice the vote count for this one. SpyreX has been on VV all day, and a zoraster lynch looks likely without his help... but then it falls apart because Kmd comes up with a wacky theory about mith. Now VV and zoraster are tied... and SpyreX switches to zoraster? This (and the AdumbroDeus switch) says SpyreX wants to look like he's going after VV, but knows that as soon as VV is actually lynched, he's going to have to explain himself, so when opportunity presents itself he switches to another lynch and shakes his fist at VV getting away yet again.

ISO 56 - Maybe I'm missing something, but I still haven't seen SpyreX go into much detail as to what this consistent scummy behaviour is (aside from VV bringing up meta... which is kinda circular, really).

ISO 60 - Again throws DGB in despite saying
nothing
about her. Gee, I wonder why he might do that...

ISO 66 - Pretty classic distancing scumlist. Scumbuddies not listed right at the top, but close enough that he can claim credit for suspecting them if they are lynched. Then linkages with little information (and VV town = heat death, Rhinox town = nothing changes says "I don't want to rule anything out if either is lynched").

ISO 68 - Prepping to clear MMEbuddy if DGB is lynched? (Hard to say, since it's not clear what his point is when he doesn't explain what he's talking about.)

ISO 69 - Fate clears SpyreX and DGB, so he gets a heart (again, he keeps throwing DGB in randomly to his posts, but otherwise says little about her and agrees when someone suggests she's town). Fate suspects Seraphim, VV, and Saint Kerrigan (= MME/PokerFace)... SpyreX comments on two of those.

ISO 71 - And... off the VV wagon again. For someone certain VV is scum, he sure is easily swayed. Easy to see the scum motivation, though: "Sure, I'll go along with whatever, and if it happens to be on my scumbuddy, great, distancing!"

ISO 73 - Not opposed to Plum? I'm shocked. He's pretty sure there's a scum in ooba/MME (but earlier suggests MME scum clears ooba for no apparent reason - distancing while setting up to defend one if the other goes down?). And of course the quote from DGB which has been mentioned.

ISO 77 - And now the switch to DGB, after having said little to express suspicion of her... His words say "I'd rather lynch ooba", but his eyes say "How is this Plumegranate mislynch not going through?". Not that he can join the entire rest of the scumteam on Plumegranate, there's some distancing to be done.

(An aside, for PokerFace's brilliant Dur... can I get a vote count? I'm not sure whether to bus or not..)

ISO 81 - The scummiest switch of all. His top suspect for four days is
ahead in the vote count
, and he switches to AdumbroDeus for absolutely no reason other than Fate's say-so. Townies don't do things like this.

ISO 84/85 - "Ok Fate, we lynched your townie, now let's lynch mine."

ISO 87 - "I don't want to lynch my scumbuddy, but I don't want to defend him either... I know, I'll try begging!"

ISO 88 - Soft defense of PokerFace.

ISO 89 - Picturing SpyreX screaming daytalk at ooba trying to get him to post something so he can get HH lynched.

ISO 93 - Surprise... another switch off HH. After the pattern he's put up, he can't very well stay off a wagon just because it's on a scumbuddy, so he'll have to settle for bussing.

ISO 106 - A lot of samey "could they be scum together?" stuff until here, where he soft defends PokerFace
again
and proposes Plumscum of all things (again, knowing he'll never need to mess with that proposed scumgroup, since HH will flip town).

ISO 108 - The "giggles" post. "We should lynch ooba... but for no good reason I'll switch back to the townie mislynch. Maybe that will clear me, since CTD thinks we're scumbuddies."

And we're to the present day. That's an awful lot of scummy, I'd say.
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Post Post #2154 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:12 am

Post by mith »

EBWOP: "apart from my quest to get
DGB
Hoopla deaded" (thought that was from day 2).
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Post Post #2155 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:11 pm

Post by Plumegranate »

Okay Fate the quiz was what I was going to do if I had time/energy to do real ISOing last night but that didn't happen. That said.

Hold your horses about me not believing in mithscum. I wasn't sure. Slept on it. But mith's response on the Vigs thing seals it.
Fate wrote:Plum let's discuss something and then hammer this chump.
So now you want discussion? I SEE THROUGH YOUR EYES, MY BROTHER.

VOTE: mith

FATE I commend this game into your hand. Find the last scumbag and shoot. I don't think it's IAM still.
This is a Plum + Pomegranate alt.
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Post Post #2156 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:15 pm

Post by mith »

Fate, if by some chance the scum have used all their blocks, you owe it to me to shoot scum tonight. Otherwise, congrats, scum. Fate's Vig claim and attack came during a very stressful week, and I was badly off my game yesterday.
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Post Post #2157 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:28 pm

Post by Fate »

*cackles madly*

WE WIN SPYREX! THE FOOLS FELL FOR MY ANTI CRUMB CLAIM.

MWHAHAHAHA
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Post Post #2158 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:34 pm

Post by SpyreX »

I THOUGHT YOU WERE CRAZY WHEN YOU SAID TO TRY IT

BUT GG
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Post Post #2159 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:58 pm

Post by Patrick »

Final Votecount

mith (4) -- Fate, SpyreX, PokerFace, Plumegranate
PokerFace (1) -- mith

Not voting: iamausername
6 alive, 4 to lynch.

-----------------------------------

mith - Townsperson - lynched day 6


Unfortunately for the town, there's no need for another night... or another day for that matter.

Fate - Vigilante - killed night 6


PokerFace - Townsperson - killed in the endgame
iamausername - Townsperson - killed in the endgame


The Mafia (DrippingGoofball, ooba, SpyreX and Plumegranate) win!


Nightactions, quicktopics etc. to follow.
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Post Post #2160 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:06 pm

Post by Patrick »

Nightactions


Night 1
Mafia no actions
Elmo shoots Amished
ekiM shoots populartajo
Kmd4390 tracks Elmo (targetting Amished)
Rhinox tracks Papa Zito (going nowhere)

Night 2
Mafia send ooba to kill Herodotus
Plumegranate roleblocks Elmo
Elmo shoots DrippingGoofball (fails due to roleblock)
ekiM shoots Elmo
Kmd4390 tracks Herodotus (going nowhere)
Rhinox tracks SpyreX (going nowhere)

Night 3
Mafia send ooba to kill Rhinox
Plumegranate roleblocks HackerHuck
Fate no action
Rhinox no action
Kmd4390 tracks Rhinox (going nowhere)

Night 4
Mafia send ooba to kill Kmd4390
Plumegranate roleblocks HackerHuck
Fate kills Ellibereth
Kmd4390 tracks PokerFace

Night 5
Mafia send ooba to kill CrashTextDummie
Fate kills ooba

Night 6
Mafia send SpyreX to kill Fate
Plumegranate roleblocks Fate

I didn't keep these quite as dilligently as normal, so if there are any mistakes, please point them out.
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Post Post #2161 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:11 pm

Post by Patrick »

I enjoyed modding a game for so many good players. I think I managed to balance it better than any past versions, and there were several plausible choices, and some strong disagreement about the strength of roles (PJ told me at one point on AIM that he thought the janitor should have been two or three shot, Shanba told me he thought it was by far the strongest role). Ironically, I think the difficulty in choosing may have been turning a few people off because it meant day 0 went almost the full two weeks. That said, the small number of people who sat out of that entirely had no business even being in the game; the sign up process allowed you to list me as "don't want" if the concept didn't interest you.

I was really surprised by what scum picked in 48 hours. I don't know what I'd have put in, but it wouldn't have involved two vigs, heh. The no-kill on night 1 was a novel idea that paid off well, but scum got lucky with how it all went down, I think. Assuming no tracker had seen a vig killing, would you guys have kept holding back your nightkill just to make town think there was only one vig?

I probably wouldn't have wanted a janitor as town, but I kept changing my mind on that.

When day 6 started I was expecting a (mith, iamausername, Plumepomeporuaywstgr) endgame with a scum win. Scum really didn't know who the vig was until Fate claimed, apparently for no reason, but I don't think it changed the result, only delayed it. Endgames have surprised me before, though. Would mith or iamasusername have reconsidered if that happened?

Major props to everyone who replaced in, apart from Seraphim. The game was a long one to catch up on. On the scum side, I thought Plum played the best, fooling a decent number of people for a long time. Commiserations to mith on the town side, who put alot into every aspect of the game and definitely didn't deserve to be mislynched. Mafia can be very unfair. I'll give a small mention to Hoopla as well, despite pretty woozy play for some of day 1, she did nail 3/4 of the scumteam with limited information. Examples of self-hammering being acceptable town play are rare, but this was one of them.

Hope everyone had fun playing.

PS - This was written earlier today, not in 5 minutes :)
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Post Post #2162 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:12 pm

Post by Patrick »

Primpod 11:13 pm
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Post Post #2163 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:23 pm

Post by VasudeVa »

SpyreX and Plum were obviously scum. Seriously, Spy never did anything of use for days on end. He was tunneling my slot for silly stupid reasons and refused to provide content during my time here. I think I caught ooba scum too, I think. Plumscum's continuous lurking was inexcusable as Town, and why everyone gave her the 'OK' after her claim was a 'Whut?' moment for me. Although, I really didn't have the Town points to get them(Spy, ooba) lynched nor did anyone ever really listen to me over the course of the game anyway.

Although, meh. I really have no right to complain after my horribad play here. I think one of Seraphim's posts quite adequately explained what I felt about this game. I just felt so apathetic about this game but I didn't want to replace out(until I did.)

But eh. Bah, scum. D=<.

Also. Hah, Fate. Hahahahaha. Guess you're not getting that best new player after all!
Call me Vas, ;D A little less active than I used to be due to IRL. Hoping to be back up to speed soon-ish!
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Post Post #2164 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:34 pm

Post by Fate »

Oh Ill shoot your buddy tonight mith. I OWE TOWN.

SpyreX if you don't post reactions today before the lynch scene you get a bullet.

Spy wtf? You........ YOU?
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Post Post #2165 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:36 pm

Post by iamausername »

PLUMEGRANATE?!?!?!

Wow. Good job, you two.
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Post Post #2166 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:40 pm

Post by Plum »

Fate wrote:Oh Ill shoot your buddy tonight mith. I OWE TOWN.

SpyreX if you don't post reactions today before the lynch scene you get a bullet.

Spy wtf? You........ YOU?
SpyreX? What about ME?

Hope I didn't break your heart there, Fate <3. For what it's worth, I was freaked out that you had me figured out or something back there while waiting for the promised Epic Post, and even after that I wasn't sure if it wasn't something aiming to catch me loosen my game.

Mith, you didn't deserve that; you played very well this game and it was sheer scum opportunism back there.
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Post Post #2167 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:41 pm

Post by Pomegranate »

I seriously commend Plum's play in this game, especially when I stopped posting entirely due to work and other stuff. She really put a lot into this. I also have to say that DGB, ooba, and Spy were terrific, and that one of the best scum moments in this game was when DGB got Rhinox to CC her. We (I was still playing to a degree at that point) followed DGB's orchestration in the QT, and let her play it out, which she did brilliantly. We gained so much from the lynch- an outed tracker, and virtual protection for Plum and me.

At first when Plum suggested something along the lines of 2 Trackers and 2 Vigs, I paused. But when we thought about it, the concept seemed to work well- lots of kills, and no sort of role that can identify scum with certainty. The beginning of D2 worked out very nicely with this.

I have to say that I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not really pushing myself to keep workig at this game, but alas, it didn't happen. I feel like when Plum knew how she wanted to play at the beginning of D4, I wasn't sure how to play together with her, when she knew how she wanted to do things.

Again, I commend my scumteam on their super special awesome play.
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Post Post #2168 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:43 pm

Post by Pomegranate »

iamausername wrote:PLUMEGRANATE?!?!?!

Wow. Good job, you two.
Heh.

(But it's Plum who gets the credit.)
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"I didn't want to use you Pom... I never killed you. I didn't endgame you it was my evil buddies!
Sowwy >_<" -scumFate.

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Post Post #2169 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:45 pm

Post by Fate »

Plum claiming vt as PR nevver crossed my mind, hell. She really fooled me though.

I had SpyreX until he manipulated me like always.

So yeah, Plum likely would've won 3p so I'm not too regretful of speeding things up. Poker/mith could've done a lot more (emphais on POKER)

Gg
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Post Post #2170 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:48 pm

Post by Plum »

Honestly, the VT claim was used because I didn't feel like getting into a one-for-one with a Townie PR when I was the Roleblocker, which is what a claim would have done . . . that said I did
not
expect the move to get such a positive response. Chalk one up for 'scum can claim VT too, especially in a semi-Open game', yeah?
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Post Post #2171 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:52 pm

Post by Rhinox »

*sigh* gg fruitsisters. didn't see it coming.

Plumegranate twins get MVP as far as I'm concerned. Why'd you guys wait so long to hammer?

Spyrex was 100% transparent from the start of the game. Wish I could have been more convincing. Shoulda stuck to my guns on ooba early in the game too.

Fate... lol. possibly the worst confirmation bias I've seen. Not a single one of your points against mith made any sense at all.


Had I been alive, I would have never supported a mith lynch, but I would have compromised with a PF lynch. Like mith, I was sure they were the last 2 scum.

I've been on the unfortunate business end of spytown's wrath while scum twice I think, so from my POV spyscum this game couldn't have been any more obvious even before VV/HH flipping town.
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Post Post #2172 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:05 pm

Post by Hoopla »

I fazed in and out of the game during the middle bit, avidly watching it again at the end. How did Plum become confirmed town? I think I missed that bit. Spy, I think you were obviously scum this game, but you have a canny knack of talking your way out of lynches - it's quite endearing.

The scumteam played well. I think their PR choices were unorthodox, but it worked in the end with trackers getting false results and creative no-kill gambits. I'd have liked to be scum this game - daytalk, power role planning - it would have been really exciting from a scum perspective.

I feel sorry for mith too. He tried very hard and didn't deserve to be mislynched. Shame on you, Fate.
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Rhinox
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Post Post #2173 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:06 pm

Post by Rhinox »

pom wrote:and that one of the best scum moments in this game was when DGB got Rhinox to CC her.
In hindsight, CC-ing prevented the plumpom lynch for the DGB lynch, and had I not CCed, town would have probably cruised to a victory.. At the time, I thought plumpom lynch was a mislynch and town really needed a scum flip to get going. From my POV, trading my life for the first scum lynch and preventing another town lynch was a perfectly good use of my role. And I also sort of thought KMD would be killed before me anyways. I was hearing some crap about me not claiming my results - I had two "went nowhere" results on living players. One I suspected was scum and didn't want my result to influence anyone, and I didn't want to let the scum know the other was not a PR. If faced with the same situation again, I'd probably play it the same way.
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Post Post #2174 (ISO) » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:14 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Fate wrote:I had SpyreX until he manipulated me like always.
:oops:

Yeaa.... I didn't know you were vig.

Yea, I was a little mystified in that good way how plum was town and it was me/pf.

It was, pretty much, win win BUT I dont want to die.
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I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

Town: (49-47-1)
Scum: (23-11)
Third Party: (2-0)
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