Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Bowser]

I'm here, and ready to burn some scum!

I will start with a

FoS: Crab Canon

for making people reveal their heads!

[Bowser]

Oh, and

Vote: Pineapple

because they're delicious.

[Bowser]

Crab, I'm going to disprove your theory about that.

Elaboration on the Bowser vote: Not trying to start a commotion, just a weak FoS based on weak reasoning. Scum tend to want to avoid the spotlight, just like what Bowser is doing already with a single post.
Pineapple's post is quite passive too but at least they at least didn't shoot a FoS at VPCrab merely for suggesting a head claim. By the way, if I'm wrong about which head of Crab is posting at the moment, please correct me. I'm pretty damn sure it's VP but I'm also terrible at identifying metas.

This is exactly why trying to figure out meta is not all that helpful. However, this hydra has talked it over and decided that trying to figure out heads is a null-tell, not scummy. For the record, this hydra has decided to out itself as Untrod and CSL. Just as a show of good faith.

UnFoS

P-Edit: At least one head of this hydra thinks meta is pretty terrible. Protective roles shouldn't be on the most experienced players but on the players who look most town.

See above. Also...yes? Who said protective roles shouldn't be on the most town players?

P-Edit 2: Oh wow. Bowser's got a "legit" FoS out and is RVSing at the same time. Wonderful, can we lynch them?

It was a joke FoS. Who makes a "legit" anything in post #9? Do you think we're retarded?

[Bowser]

FYI, I refuse to play like a damned VI anymore. What you saw in ACoK is no more.

~CSL

Because tildes are awesome.

[Bowser]

Also, Bowser appears to have already resorted to "Appeal to Attacker" and decided to unFoS (FoSes being irrelevant in the first place) after being called out for it.

Oh for Goomba's sake, what does that even mean? Are you trying to say that we're trying to suck up to someone? We're not.
FoS is not an irrelevant gesture. Stating your suspicions is helpful. In this case it wasn't all that meaningful, especially since we talked it over and decided that trying to figure out heads wasn't suspicious (which we said later). That's why we un-FoSed. Some of the hydra protocol was a bit clunky to start with, but we're getting better into the flow now. For all of your meta needs, we will sign posts we make individually, and not sign posts we make collaboratively. Then no one will say "LOL I WONDER WHICH HEAD IT IS THAT IS SAYING THE THINGS I DON'T LIKE".

My stance on meta: It can be used to find townies from a town point of view, but it does not work for finding scum, which is the most important part of town play. Town play tends to be less predictable and so specific things from a player's town meta can be noticed and used as towntells. Howeverm scum metas are far less diverse and using meta to find scum doesn't really do anything except distract from actual scumhunting.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

<3,
Untrod

[Bowser]

Ha! This is how I'll probably ACT like.

GOOD THING that ITALIAN ANNOYANCE isn't here to annoy me.

~CSL

Because I use Bowser all the time in games that include him.

[Bowser]

I don't do caps wars.

SOMETIMES, I may use one word that's capitalized.

PREVIEW EDIT: This isn't Day 1 yet. Stop acting like it is, please.

~CSL

I can't think of a one-liner!

[Bowser]

You are going to be a nuisance.

I wasn't trying to pass off your logic. I was stating the obvious.

[Bowser]

I agree with Jerry.

(I bet the other head will agree too)

~CSL

What my last post should've ended with.

[Bowser]

@Bowser: Did Untrod-head post all of your 3 first posts ITT?

The first two were CSL, the third (where we outted our heads) was collaborative.
<3,
UT

[Bowser]

FoS is not an irrelevant gesture.

It is in the RVS, especially being your first vote.

what we actually wrote was

FoS is not an irrelevant gesture. Stating your suspicions is helpful. In this case it wasn't all that meaningful

lrn2readplz. Not two sentences later, we said "ok, it was dumb". If you're going to quote us out of context, do it better.

here, I'll quote you out of context

I'm scum at the moment

What? He said he's scum? Lynch him! What, you said all those words, don't act like I didn't quote you right. You're just mad because I caught you.

Bowser's post 31 is so anti-town, it's not even funny.

Why? Just calling something anti-town doesn't make it anti-town. Use your words.

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

1) CSL and UT
2) Lynch all Liars. Yes, 99% of the time. Lynch all Lurkers? Almost never.
3) It will be slightly less meaningful than meta is in single-player slots. Which is to say it's going to be about as useful as tits on a tractor, but just a little less useful.
4) IceCream
5) PST and EST. Um...very active?
6) Day vig (UT), Either cop or vig(CSL)

[Bowser]

PREVIEW EDIT: This isn't Day 1 yet. Stop acting like it is, please.

Information exchanged in the thread is useful in potentially determining a Hydra’s alignment, regardless of whether Day 1 is officially started or not. This is essentially the same argument that states that nothing can possibly be learned from RVS / RQS.

Ok. You got us there.

What? He said he's scum? Lynch him! What, you said all those words, don't act like I didn't quote you right. You're just mad because I caught you.

Horrible argument here. Icecream quoted a specific sentence from your post. You cut and pasted words that were not linked in that manner from their post. His is responding to a specific comment. Yours is plain quote tampering.

Will it help you to read the thread? They still quoted us out of context.

~CSL

[Bowser]

Sorry.

One head (Tripod) is busy sometimes, and the other one is sick.

Will have a re-read when my body decides to feel better. D:<

~CSL

[Bowser]

@ Trollmaira: Hopefully today. If not, then tomorrow. One head is ill, and the other head is having issues with schoolwork.

We'll likely draw up a post sometime today for you guys to disect.

~CSL

[Bowser]

/prodded

Re-reading the thread later today.

~CSL

[Bowser]

I'm going to converse with my other head when he comes back from his duties. Until then, sit tight.

~CSL

[Bowser]

And I (CSL) ended up being a bit busy between then and now.

Going to go re-read in the aftnoon tomorrow IF I can get my other head. (Hey, at least I'm still here)

[Bowser]

I guess I should start by weighing in on the #1 lynch candidate for today. I'll do so with an ISO

third, @ CC: why the start of the bv311 bandwagon? i agree with it in the sense that i dont like his play so far this game either, and i'm not against lynching him, but to me it seemed to come almost out of the blue and/or in response to Zorblag putting him on his shortlist.

fourth, @ FourTigers: you expressed a desire to lynch bv311 earlier, and have again mentioned that you will vote him closer to deadline. so what is preventing you from voting him/joining the bandwagon now?

So right here he's saying that he finds bv311 not exactly worth lynching, but is edging towards the wagon. I find this to be wishy-washy and scummy. Pineapple hadn't mentioned bv311 previous to this post (other than mentioning in the RQS stage that he would lynch him for "a confusing avatar"), so it seems like he senses that a wagon is forming and wants to look proactive by edging towards it and looking supportive without really putting himself on the line Also he is questioning CC and FourTigers on their willingness to lynch and he further asks FourTigers why he isn't voting yet if he's willing to vote for him later in the game. This is somewhat fair, although kind of hypocritical because he's doing basically what he's accusing FourTigers of doing.

i am also willing to hammer bv311 if needed, but only after a claim.

This is Pineapple's next post. I would ask the same thing you asked FourTigers in your previous post. Edges yet closer to the wagon without providing any reasoning for getting on it other than a comment that he "didn't like bv311's play".

also interesting to note that this post looks like you planning on running me up to a lynch tomorrow regardless of what i do. good ol' damned if i do; damned if i dont.

also i never said that i'd vote him but i'm not going to. i said i'd vote him but wanted a claim from him first.

and he just claimed. VT.

good ol' damned if i do; damned if i dont in your eyes. if i hammer him here and he flips VT, then you are all over me for being an obvscum hammer. if i hammer here and he flips scum, then you are all over me for bussing my partner that is an inevitable lynch. if i dont hammer and someone else does and he flips scum, i look like i was trying to avoid hammering my partner. if i dont hammer and someone else does and he flips town, i look like i was scum trying to avoid a townie lynch.

but anyway a VT claim isn't reason enough to not hammer him. he hasn't been contributing and has been actively lurking.

Unvote

VOTE: bv311

I don't get why you aren't really attempting to defend yourself so much as you're attacking one player's reasons for wanting to vote you and then weakly coming up with a reason to vote for bv311. You aren't really providing reasons why you want to lynch so much as saying "well if I don't lynch him you'll think I'm scum, so I guess I'll vote him!". You're putting the blame for your vote on others for when bv311 flipped town. This looks like scummy reasoning to me, although the whole "I was pressured into voting!" approach isn't something I've seen before.

first, what's so wrong with not mentioning Bowser very much in my posts? he hasn't posted much of anything this game, and just cause you think he's one of the top suspects doesn't mean i do. at worst he was active lurking like bv311, but i also find it quite likely that RL has been a problem for them which would explain their lack of posting.

Thanks for the support. I agree that we haven't done anything all that scummy other than lurking. And yes thank you, RL has been a problem. Realizing that we're not scum doesn't make you town, though. Looks more like you're a scum player trying to get a member of the town on your side.

HEY IT'S OKAY I GET THE JOKE. I don't think I need 3 guesses, but I'll use them anyway.

Vezokpiraka? Furcolow? Mina? has to be one of those.

In cool news

Vote Pineapple

can i ask for some reasoning behind the vote?

It kinda looks like you just did ask, doesn't it. You're scum. HOW'S THAT FOR REASONING?

VOTE: Faranor

why?

YOU'RE SCUM!!!!1!11!!!!!1

(and in case you people missed it i'm making a point)

ok now on to something more substantial...

So...you OMGUS someone to make a point...but then don't explain it further and leave your vote there. Is your point that he deserves a vote because he voted for you with no reason? Funny...that's...what you're doing....

You went out of your way not to comment on it but were willing to hammer, why? It doesn't add up

maybe because i didnt go out of my way not to comment on it.

Being wishy washy, overindicating your vote before you put it on (which to my mind was a way to test the waters to make sure it wouldn't be perceived as scummy) and then jumping on what turned on to be a town wagon with little to no reasoning is a pretty scummy combo of actions.

Why do you care so much what other players think? If you think PP is scum

push

them! Make cases on them, ask them questions... You know, scum hunt. I didn't see any of that from you yesterday and that's a big part of the reason why our vote is on you today.

What do you think of PP today? Who's scum?

~Sotty

the more i think about PP and my growing dislike of Mr. Smith, the more i'm realizing that my dislike comes from a VIish read on them. scum have a reason to act like a VI so my brain kinda slotted them in there. except by definition a VI is a town player that acts against his/her wincon.

in other words: i still dont like their play, but I find them less likely to be scum then before.

More wishy-washyness and weasel words. Pineapple's unwillingness to commit to a wagon and vote for a decent reason is scummy. It doesn't look to me like Pineapple is scumhunting, more like drifting along and playing in a reactionary way.

_________________________________________________________________

After the ISO, I'm happy with a Pineapple lynch today, but I will have to confer with my hydra partner to see where he wants our vote to go.

<3,
Untrod

[Bowser]

Allow me to be the first to say "I stopped reading this post here." Can you tell us why
1. You're not scum?
2. You're not legitimately scumhunting?
3. You're still alive?

...wow, way to be an ass.
1. Because we're not
2. Pineapple is at L-2 at this point and at the time I posted, it looked pretty obvious he would get that way, not commenting on the wagon would be lazy and irresponsible. After reading over his ISO, it looked to me like he was scum. So I added to the case.
VOTE: Pineapple
oops, L-1. Claim.
3. Scum didn't see us as enough of a threat to kill us and we didn't get lynched.

Did you know that posting in a really condescending way doesn't make you any more right?

[Bowser]

@PP
five posts in a row?

I know this always draws heat from people for "trying to look protown," so I hope my other head will forgive me for doing this, but...no. Pineapple, DON'T claim. Ignore Bowser. (Out of curiosity, Bowser, did CSL or Untrod Tripod cast that vote?)

"I know I'm doing something that's scummy, but I promise I'm not scummy guys". Pineapple has been acting legitimately scummy. I'm allowed to want a claim. As are the other people on the wagon, which reminds me.

This kind of stupid premature claim-forcing from any player who's under suspicion is one of my biggest pet peeves. No claims until the majority of players decide we want to lynch Pineapple, someone is ready to hammer, and the deadline is not almost two weeks away. What would a claim from Pineapple change at this juncture?

Pineapple is at L-1, meaning that half of the players in the game want that slot to swing. Sounds like a reasonable amount of suspicion to warrant a claim to me.

<3,
Untrod

[Bowser]

Bowser is scummier than PP.

Why?

@Bowser: unvote, vote: Bowser. Why I ever changed this vote is beyond me.

Why are you voting for us?

Can you tell us why
1. You're not scum?

Why are we scum?

You're doing a whole lot of telling and not a whole lot of showing. Your case doesn't get any better by virtue of repetition. Could it be because you're playing the angry card in hopes that people will just not argue with you? I'm growing concerned that maybe Pineapple isn't scum and Smith is, and is trying to be the angry townie so we're impressed with his seemingly prescient read on Pineapple. I've seen that tactic used by scum before.

I want to give Pineapple's new head some breathing room, so

unvote Pineapple

[Bowser]

I guess I should start by weighing in on the #1 lynch candidate for today.

So you felt the need to weigh-in on the number 1 candidate of others as opposed to someone you felt was scum?

I find post 391 very self-serving - you weigh in on the popular lynch of the Day. You ISO them and surprise, surprise find them scummy.

You know as well as I do that if I hadn't commented on the Pineapple case, I would have gotten shit for it. He was the popular lynch candidate, so rather than riding the bandwagon, I went back and read his play. I found it scummy. Would you have been happier if I had
a. tried to refute it
b. ignored it
c. tried to create another wagon?
d. just hopped on and said "WOOO. GO WAGON GOOOOOOOO!"
What, exactly, is the problem with finding a scummy player scummy? I notice you don't have a problem with my actual case, just the fact that I made it.

Pineapple has been acting legitimately scummy. I'm allowed to want a claim. As are the other people on the wagon, which reminds me.
Pineapple is at L-1, meaning that half of the players in the game want that slot to swing. Sounds like a reasonable amount of suspicion to warrant a claim to me.

It’s great that you want a claim. That said claims aren’t made because you want someone to. Claims are made to prevent mislynches on Town PRs. And they are made when a player at L-1 has been threatened with being lynched by another player not on the wagon. Your reasonable suspicion is noted and all but really isn’t relevant to the situation.

Again, I'm allowed to ask for a claim on an L-1 wagon. I felt that the wagon was full steam enough to warrant a claim. If Pineapple doesn't want to claim and wants to argue out of the wagon instead, why don't you let them do the arguing themselves?

You're doing a whole lot of telling and not a whole lot of showing. Your case doesn't get any better by virtue of repetition. Could it be because you're playing the angry card in hopes that people will just not argue with you? I'm growing concerned that maybe Pineapple isn't scum and Smith is, and is trying to be the angry townie so we're impressed with his seemingly prescient read on Pineapple. I've seen that tactic used by scum before.

I want to give Pineapple's new head some breathing room, so unvote Pineapple

So you went to the trouble of doing an extensive read on Pineapple that made you happy they were a good lynch. Then you call for a claim repeatedly. Now suddenly you are doubting that read? Yeah, I’m not really thrilled with this move towards a 180 from you.

Maybe I was unclear, but I still think Pineapple is scummy. However, after I had made those posts I said "woah, hold on a sec, maybe Pineapple isn't scum, because I'm seeing stuff I don't like from another slot that leads me to believe that maybe Pineapple isn't scum at all". Would it be better if I saw that and ignored it? Or, better yet, saw it and mentioned it, but kept my Pineapple vote where it was? We can still lynch Pineapple if his counterargument isn't good, I just wanted to help prevent a possible mislynch.

Yesterday Pineapple was one of my top scum suspects. The lack of input and zero scum-hunting combined with the hammer was bad. That said today I’m beginning to doubt my read. Pineapple has made better contributions today than a number of other Hydra and the fact that no significant counter-wagon has yet to appear makes me think they are likely slacker Town players who make a nice easy target.

But wait, didn't you just say that me doubting my read was scummy? Why is it ok for you do that and not me?

<3,
Untrod

[Bowser]

In other news, Pineapple is still a great lynch for today.

If nothing else, the flip will tell us something about the people who are opposing the wagon.

[Bowser]

In any case, your unvote isn't doing us any good at all; we need scum hunting, pressure, and firmer stances. Voting is how you can help with those.

Good point.

vote Pineapple

. I don't think Ice Cream is the correct lynch today. I think it should either be Pineapple or Mr Smith. They are my current scum reads. I find MS and Chimaira to be town. Everyone else is fairly null to me, but I think that my reads will change drastically based the [probable] Pineapple flip. I don't think that lynching anyone except for my two scum reads is in any way the correct play today, and since it seems that Pineapple will swing, I would rather not make people read my weakass, imminently changing cases on other players.

Pineapple IceCream is a tasty scum combination

DO WANT.

[Bowser]

though I am tempted to just edit my post, I won't.

EBWOP: I find MasterSpy and Chimaira to be town.

[Bowser]

This is the new un-Untrod Tripod head checking in to replace CSL. Trying to get thread read before deadline, but I wanted to say hi and announce my presence.
Won't comment on anything else yet as i don't want to inadvertantly disagree with my other half.
~T

[Bowser]

Nice of you to show up approximately 15 hours before deadline and say nothing. Classy.

Uh, thanks for the warm welcome. You're so totally classy. I'm catching up as fast as I can.
Tal

[Bowser]

OK I've read the whole thread. I don't know if it's because I haven't played mafia for a while or if it's the hydras or if it's being unfamiliar with most of you, but it has been tough getting my head around this game.

I think Pineapple is scum. S/he hasn't impressed me with any posts that come across as genuine indignation or defensiveness... you know? Most townies feel pretty unhappy about being vigorously suspected and Pineapple just hasn't displayed anything like that. Pineapple's suspicions of other players have been weak and vague and unnatural. I understand that occasionally unmotivated townies play like this, but I think it more likely to be scum who are a bit unsure of themselves.

Me & UT are both a little wary of Chimaira. For me it's primarily a Sotty gut feeling plus Zorblag's uber-helpfulness. Obviously that isn't a case they can answer to, but just wanted it out there.

At this point UT & I differ on our 3rd suspect (mine=Icecream, UT=Mr Smith).

~Tal

[Bowser]

I'm in GMT+13 and don't know exactly how close we are to deadline. But I do believe it's too late for last minute switches, we'd most likely end up with a no lynch.

Pineapple, will you self hammer before deadline if necessary. Why or why not?

~Tal

[Bowser]

Not true. A no lynch is only better for scum. It keeps the town in the dark for that much longer. A townie should always be willing to get lynched rather than send town to night with no information.

~Tal

[Bowser]

Finally the scum survival instinct (that someone was mentioning) has kicked in, huh?

Please people, Pineapple is a good lynch.

[Bowser]

Open to the idea of a no lynch... on Day 2? I can't believe what I'm reading.

Pretty sure is town?? *tears hair out*. Anyone can make a convincing town sounding post. Haven't you seen them from scum many a time? The only thing you can trust in this game is the alignment of the dead bodies that pile up. So let's pile them up.

I'm on my way out the door so can't stay and chat more.

~Tal

[Bowser]

I'm vigging Bowser tonight. Screw you all.

You meant to say that the mafia will be using their kill on the tracker. Because on the off chance you're not scum, it'd be better for you to not waste your kill

[Bowser]

/in before lynch-lock

Not sure if I would have claimed at this point, but I got my hydra's back & dunno wtf Smith is playing at.

We tracked Chi on Night 1 and were unable to get a result. We speculate that either we were blocked or Chi has an untrackable role.

~Tal

[Bowser]

Followed Crab Canon last night. Went nowhere.

IceCream gets to claim next.

[Bowser]

Just so these are all in one place:

N1, followed Chimeira, we were "unable to determine" if he went anywhere
N2, followed IceCream, he went nowhere
N3, followed Crab Canon, he went nowhere

[Bowser]

The power role claims and results fitting together so nicely doesn't sit very well with me...
I think Smith is right - town having a doc (I assume that's what bodyguard is) AND a role blocker is really powerful and pretty unlikely.

But Mr Smith,
if Chimaira & Tom&Jerry are scum together and PP is not scum, why did Chimaira target T&J on night 2 (confirmed by PP-watcher)? Need a rethink here, I think.

~Tal

[Bowser]

Admittedly I haven't played a lot lately and my idea of balance may be rusty, but why wouldn't it be:

town:
BG
tracker
watcher
6 VT

scum:
RB
2 goons

[Bowser]

Pressed submit too soon.

Thanks i looked the role up, btw. So the bodyguard - Masterspy - might have died protecting someone else.

Still unsure which way our vote is going to go. Waiting for Prof Paradox's answer about their night 2 choice.

~Tal

[Bowser]

IceCream,

If I'm not mistaken there's a distinct possibility that some of the scum can stay home at night.

But that aside, why are you using the words of another player who you presumably don't know the alignment of as any kind of hard evidence? It's like you know we're town...

~Tal

[Bowser]

Mr Smith,

I fakeclaimed vig to draw the roleblocker's block.

What evidence did you have that there was a roleblocker in the game when you fakeclaimed vig?
~Tal

[Bowser]

Yeah... I am dubious too. The claims etc. at end of Day 2 were the most interesting thing that had happened in the game for ages and I'm amazed they could both miss it. But I know Thanksgiving is a big deal in US, so will wait for UT's thoughts before voting.

~Tal

[Bowser]

Getting ready to vote Prof Paradox here, unless my senior hydra partner UT steps in or a compelling case is made for someone else. No lynch today is an auto-lose for town if there's 3 scum, correct? So we must lynch.

Much kudos to the scum as I'm not sure on any of you, but if you want my guesses at this point... PP-Chimaira-Mr Smith

~Tal

[Bowser]

vote: Professor Paradox

I believe that's 3 votes on PP.