Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Crab Canon]

Oj and VP were here first!

[Crab Canon]

Everyone needs to identify themselves, btw. And you're cruising for a bruising with your scoffage.

[Crab Canon]

Vote: Mr. Smith

Only scum have a reason to hide their heads. Anyone else want to back up Mr.

Scum

Smith?

[Crab Canon]

Meta reasons do apply. On what grounds do you have to say that they don't? For instance, if a hydra contains a known VI and begins to act highly irrationally, but the town as a whole does not know about the VIs presence, that is more likely to lead to a mislynch that could have easily been avoided with a little meta.

Additionally, the converse of your reason, that scum will target the experienced players, is that having the experienced players out in the open allows any protective roles to operate more efficiently. Same for any other power role really.

Third reason is because Crab Canon said so and is by far the best hydra team. obv. pro-town we win, now do it.

[Crab Canon]

Ok, let me use a more concrete example. (and I'm not trying to be mean here, so I apologize in advance if it comes across like that). Say CSL is in a hydra but you don't know it. At some point, this hydra gets run up to L-2 or 3 and says it will self-hammer if it gets to L-1. Anybody else on the site and you are going to power lynch that person for making such a terrible appeal to emotion. However, if you know it's CSL, you know he does it as town or scum and therefore you shouldn't use that as a reason to lynch.

Re: protective roles - same goes for scum kills doesn't it? An experienced player that looks really scummy isn't going to be high on scum's kill list I would imagine.

All of that being said,

Unvote

. You seem to actually believe that you're making a town choice. You're not...but you seem to believe it. Plus I like your Bowser hate.

And this is VP. See, you're not so terrible afterall.

[Crab Canon]

I don't know about your win condition, but mine is to lynch scum, not educate players on how to play better. Lynching bad-town = losing. If you're saying that you don't care who you are lynching even if they are likely town, then you are playing against the town wincon.

[Crab Canon]

Case in effing point.

[Crab Canon]

lol FAIL, have to get used to this.
MOD, please delete above. Reposting.

My stance on meta: It can be used to find townies from a town point of view, but it does not work for finding scum, which is the most important part of town play. Town play tends to be less predictable and so specific things from a player's town meta can be noticed and used as towntells. Howeverm scum metas are far less diverse and using meta to find scum doesn't really do anything except distract from actual scumhunting

Your reasoning is poor. Townies identifying townies should be a great thing. Scum hate pro-town bands. Scum is what is left when you have identified all the townies. Identifying people to trust is anything but a distraction from scumhunting.

Crab Canon hereby agrees with itself in wanting to out the hydras. One more concrete reason is monitoring activity. I want to be able to tell when the individual heads have 40 posts on the site without a single one here. I want scum to have that pressure to post at uncomfortable times to them, or be caught in active lurking, or have to coordinate silence sitewide.

Generally reading people has a lot to do with reading personality types to me. I remember looking at the playlist and counting 8 or so people who's MO I'm at least somewhat familiar with. It's already schitzophrenic enough with every account having 2 personalities - not being able to research the individual heads will make it even harder.
I don't see a pro-town reason for withholding the hydras identities.

Also: @Sotty7, in whichever hydra you are a head:
Hi. Are you scum?

[Crab Canon]

Also, outting the hydra heads eliminates the need for us to be spending time talking about and wondering who is who. Wow, we keep coming up with more and more reasons to do it.

So far anti-reasons are 1) Scum targets experienced players (poor) and 2) It's more fun (stupid)

There you go. We win. Do it.

Also, my guess is that there is scum among the hydras that haven't checked in yet. Chattering away in their scum QTs and what not for pregame.

-VP over and out

--preview edit--

@Smith - identifying townies is not a terrible way to scumhunt. It's a very effective tool and more players should try and do it. You still pursue scum suspects, but you also learn to rule out people based on town reads. This makes your focus and rate of actually lynching scum increase.

[Crab Canon]

Reference post:


Chimaira
Faranor
FourTigers
IceCream
MasterSpy

@TomandJerry - get an avatar please, thanks.

[Crab Canon]

Personally, I thought the anonymity of Hydra heads was what separated this game from being like any other game.

Personally, I find having 24 people (many of them strangers to each other) randomly bound inseparably together and watching the fireworks keeping this game from being like any other. Also all-hydra game.
And it's possible to be anonymous via alt in almost any other game, too. Unless have some reason be drawn to an all-anonymous game.
What I'm after is as much clarity as possible. Anything of help to reads. 12 random hydras is chaotic and lulzy in itself. In addition to previously mentioned things, I've played one hydra game previously, and while our heads were public, the fact that noone knew me or my partner beforehand and we didn't usually sign our posts making us so hard to meta that I felt effectually metaless made me feel very comfortable as scum. I want any potential avenue to make scum less comfortable pursued, regardless of whether any meta is actually used. Town lacks paranoia about their meta.

Oj

[Crab Canon]

Oh for god's sake I'm not usually this retarded. Repost.

@Bowser: Did Untrod-head post all of your 3 first posts ITT?

Oj

[Crab Canon]

/confrim

At least Furry is sensible. Who is your partner Furry?

Crab Canon still supports mass nameclaiming so we can move on to the actual game as quick as possible. TomandJerry and Pineapple can go ahead any time.

[Crab Canon]

So, just for the record Mr. Smith, you think it's scummy to have inverted pictures of other people's avatars, but not to generally avoid commenting on things that every other active player is commenting on?

Also,

Give me 3 pro-town reasons not involving meta to claim heads and I'll gladly agree - I say this because you will NOT be able to do it.

When did your stance change from 'give me 3 reasons' to 'I'll never reveal because I'm too scared of people knowing who I am'? I'm quite certain we gave you more than three reasons, all of them well reasoned enough. Your original argument against revealing was that experienced players would be targeted, which I have shown to be malarkey. I really don't see why you want town to be operating at a disadvantage. Anonymity was NOT the point of this game, nor was it ever stated to be as such. The point was random hydra pairings.

[Crab Canon]

You still didn't answer my question about one of your well reasoned arguments. Why do you want to give a VI an excuse to play like a VI? This is the third time I'm asking this question. You seem to be avoiding it.

Oh and the bolded is a strawman. Please don't do that.

I didn't answer it directly because it's a stupid fucking question that makes zero sense. Better? Furthermore, it was addressed (shocker) when I said that the point of the game isn't to lynch VIs, but rather to lynch scum. IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM IF YOU CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I can actually read people who are just stupid town and therefore I would like to know who is who. I state again, I'm not here to play teacher and help others improve their game. I'm here to lynch scum. People not revealing who they are is a hindrance to that. Perhaps you should consult with your other head and ask them to talk some sense in to you.

In terms of strawman, meh. You've given very poorly reasoned arguments not to reveal, so I reserve the right to mock them with hyperbole. Provide better reasons and I will address them as such.

In terms of if we think you're scum, I can't really tell you. My gut says no based on your earlier attack of Bowser, but it's still early in the game and none of my reads are particularly well founded yet. Time will tell. Stay tuned!

[Crab Canon]

Mr. Smith: To answer about giving VIs excuses: from my part I'm not confident that the site culture is good at distinguishing scummy from player skill. Case in point:

To put another way, I have a hard time putting much faith in the idea that lynches actually do correlate with players' alignments in some way rather than some abstract concept of "player skill" when I can do this.

I hate idiotic play as much as the next person, but in my view it's subtler than that, reading alignment. In all my time in mafia scum I've played with exactly one scum who was

intentionally

trying to appear clueless (and he was pretty bad regardless). It's not a matter of giving excuses. You just have to look for different scum markers for different skill levels, experience levels, personality types, intentionality.
Meta can help. A little. It's not just the person in question. Also the people around them. Recently in a game there was a town moron that was lynched D1. D3 I researched her more and found that her newbie game had ended in the meanwhile and the mod was one of the players in our game, and the simultaneous knowledge of the moron's town alignment in the newbie game and controversial behaviour in our game to that inside knowledge made me rightly very confident that the mod was scum.
Bad town and scum are different, and bad town and bad scum are also different. Information can help. Sometimes. And there's not a single good reason to deprive ourselves of it. Just get it done.

To b: I can't see my partner talking about policy lynching anywhere, you are clearly stretching. The teaching part is implied here by you.

I think that as you could just as easily make the Hydra responsible for possible VI-behaviour. Is there a particular reason you are trying to allow a bad player to play bad?

In this game, he would actually have a chance to improve his play by working with his other head.

Seriously, what reason do you have to give a bad player an excuse to play bad?

Yay, I think I'm finally managing to post from the right account on the first try.

[Crab Canon]

lol

My Mr. Smith, your identity is showing.....who's you're partner now?

Btw, Crab Canon is keeping a running list of all hydras, which we will be posting in full once we have everyone figured out. It's only a matter of time and log out errors.

[Crab Canon]

Thanks for your advice obi-wan, but I've actually played mafia before. It's probably ok if you stop trying to hand out advice that I don't care about. 1) I haven't had a chance yet to talk to my other head about the cases being presented, so we aren't ready to comment on them until we have a consensus reached. We don't like being schizo as it's quite anti-town hydra play. 2) I don't think everyone has even posted yet, so meh. We appreciate the ambition and that's part of the reason we think you're townish Smith, but in terms of you being so confident in your cases, you're probably swinging at apparitions.

We'll most likely have a post today with our judgments on the cases made so far plus our own personal opinions on who is most likely to be scum.

[Crab Canon]

Stop being an arrogant twit. What you highlighted above doesn't make any sense in terms of an argument, nor are they making our position unclear. Anyone with a 3rd grade reading comprehension level can understand what I'm saying and why I said it. It's no wonder bv311 thinks you're acting like a douche and is antagonizing you for it. You should let your partner post more because you're coming across as an idiot who thinks he's better at this game than he really is.

[Crab Canon]

I haven't stated any solid reads yet, therefore, there is no backdoor to be created.

For instance:

I don't think everyone has posted yet.

- not talking about reads

It's probably ok if you stop trying to hand out advice that I don't care about.

-not talking about reads

so we aren't ready to comment on them until we have a consensus reached.

- talking about how our hydra hasn't talked about reads enough to make our comments yet.

We don't like being schizo as it's quite anti-town hydra play.

-I don't even understand why you highlighted this. Do you know what the word quite means?

We appreciate the ambition and that's part of the reason we think you're townish Smith

- very clearly saying mild town read on you. Do you expect anything more than that on page five before everyone has even posted?

We'll most likely have a post today with our judgments on the cases made so far plus our own personal opinions on who is most likely to be scum.

- Stating we'll post today if we can talk in our QT (Oj is less active than me) and I don't know why the last is highlighted either.

None of the above can even remotely be construed as trying to back out of reads later except for possibly calling you townish, which I think is a fair thing to say at this stage of the game. I reiterate, you're being arrogant twits instead of making actual arguments about anything worthwhile. You call it ad hom, I call it the truth. Play better.

[Crab Canon]

Mr. Smith and Crab Canon – you can stop your little Alpha pissing contest anytime and get to actually looking for scum.

I agree and our hydra has said all we're going to say on that matter.

[Crab Canon]

The alpha thing is male and whether you guys think this is a deflection or not, I'm gonna leave dealing with it to VP - a bunch of rather wasted testosterone fluff imo.
Oj here - mostly annoyed rather than great reads from this nameclaim debate. Some even straight up admit being anti-town like IceCream who openly state they think meta helps here AND refuse to nameclaim due to lulz. But I don't get great scumreads from it, too many people being pointlessly anti-town. I get the idea VP is in the same state of mind.

TomAndJerry is an odd one. Refuse to nameclaim YET use this incredibly convoluted crapmeta-logic on lateralus lying about favorite role? The fact that lateralus hasn't been a mason on mafiascum takes 5+ minutes to check. The effort baffles me. (effort=slight town; convoluted, complicated, really bad use of meta=modus operandi completely at odds to opposing nameclaiming)
TomAndJerry, did you actually go and check everyone's meta who you could similarly, if no, why lateralus, and why assume he doesn't play elsewhere?

Also, repeating: SOTTY7. HI. ARE YOU SCUM?
(you know we'll find out sooner or later in which hydra you are anyway.)

Older stuff:

@OJ-37/Crab-38: Scum can use meta too, especially if someone's town and scum meta are close. The last thing we want is an artificially confirmed town hydra that is scum.

You cannot

confirm

anyone through meta, that's stupid. You can have working hypothesis' and they can be helpful whether you decide to change your mind later or not. And I was answering to Mr. Smith's flawed argument that townies identifying townies isn't particularly helpful, and working from within

his

stated premise than townies are able to do so through meta.

I will be watching the Smith-Crab argument, no comment on it at the moment.

Why?

@Mr. Smith 83: I think I'm simply less optimistic about the improvement of play in general through hydraing than you, and thus less optimistic that hydraing will change the correlation to player skill.

Also I love Crab’s not so subtle attempt at 42 to point out Hydras as lurkers despite not every account being activated. Noted for the record.

I pointed out in our qt to my partner at the time that in fact none of the missing accounts were activated, found that you can look at the memberlist according join date and only activated ones show up. It was not, however, obvious that the mod had decided to start the game with only half of the players able to post, especially as our account took only a few days to activate, there must have been a bottleneck.

Scum will be sharing their identities with each other so they already know a number of the Hydras. It is in their best interests to push for ‘full’ disclosure, if only to hone in on the players they deem ‘most dangerous’ in the field.

This is really really stupid.

Additionally, once again, the playerlist looks sufficiently deep that looking for Docs / other defenders to aim for Experienced players is pointless. Solid Town play in thread should determine potential Doc protections, not join date.

And this is contradictory to it - cancels out the alleged strong scum motive for finding out "dangerous players".

Pineapple is disturbingly tasteless and fluffy, had account activated, had even a

collaborative

pointless answer post made to TAJ questions. The others are much harder to distuiguish in terms of scummy vs. anti-town atm. Need more.

vote: Pineapple

(I haven't discussed this really with VP but he seemed to agree with the pointless presence vibe from Pineapple.)
Mr. Smith and FourTigers are prob town.

Cut by Chimaira - why are you not voting who you would want to lynch right now? How useful do you deem the TAJ questions?

[Crab Canon]

@ Pineapple - Do you feel that you need others to create cases before you can get into a game and begin commenting?

[Crab Canon]

And by commenting, I mean productively scumhunting.

[Crab Canon]

lmao

Had I known it was you myk, I wouldn't have even bothered to argue since you always trip up on alt accounts. You may as well give up the tough guy style while you're at it since I know that's not really how you play normally anyway.

@Pineapple - If it's not necessary for you to scumhunt, then how is this even relevant:

1. Because all this discussion on meta/revealing heads and stuff is all just theory based stuff with little or no actual scum hunting. there's been only a few posts made so far that include an actual attempt at scum hunting and they've been drowned out in my mind by all the meta discussion.

Seems like you're simply making excuses if it's not relevant.

[Crab Canon]

you misunderstand. we do need to scum hunt.

I realize we need to scumhunt. My point is that you were making excuses about why you couldn't scumhunt yet by saying that other people needed to first. Then I asked if this was a prerequisite to your scumhunting and you said no. I don't understand why you needed other people to scum hunt first then. You said that the meta discussion was getting in the way of your scumhunting, why is that?

so can we please not make the "He is playing differently so he must be scum" argument?

Was not planning on it at all. The biggest thing I use meta for is assessing competency. I know you and therefore I have an idea of what level of scumhunting to expect from you. That's the extent that i personally use meta. I find it kind of annoying that you were fighting so hard for

that

and I do think it was anti-town, but whatever. By-gones are by-gones and you're outted now.

Definitely would like to hear Professor Paradox explain their reasoning behind faking.

[Crab Canon]

I don't like this:

I wanted to see how it [Smith vs. Crab] would turn out without being tainted by my comments. Seeing as you've moved on, I think it was almost certainly Town vs Town, but I needed to see it thought to the end to make sure.

"To make sure" implies Cream had the assumption of something to the direction of prob town vs. town at the time of making the original comment.
Cream's original snippet was

I don't like Smith's post 74. VI is not scummy, and I don't know where or why you made that assertion.
I will be watching the Smith-Crab argument, no comment on it at the moment.

Those lines were consequent, and there were several other mentions of disagreeing with us or agreeing with Smith in related matters in the post. This "I'll be watching you" reads like highlighting but not taking sides, but not in the "this is prob town-town" way, and expressing dislike for Smith's post at the height of the fire doesn't match with not wanting to taint by comments.

vote: IceCream

[Crab Canon]

Mmmm.
Didn't originally think early Bowser was all that read-tastic but something about their activity pattern is starting to bother me.
CSL starts the game with enthusiasm, gets attacked right away, but proclaims "I'm not going to play like a VI anymore!" and that kind of eager sentiment.
unpod spends all his time so far parsing for attacks on what CSL said with the FoS, confirmation stage not counting etc. CSL has gone almost invisible now. unpod has only spoken up after attacks, and his only post after reopening of thread pretty fast after IceCream's attack.

Clarify. Now.

I thought it was pretty clear. When you say in the middle of an argument "I don't like this recent post from side B. I'll be watching this, no more comment for now." it doesn't come across to me as stemming from "A vs. B is probably town-town, but I don't want to take sides/taint this exchange."

[Crab Canon]

@Smith - what are your thoughts on Pineapple and their contribution to the thread so far?

On a related note, this was completely ignored:

you misunderstand. we do need to scum hunt.

I realize we need to scumhunt. My point is that you were making excuses about why you couldn't scumhunt yet by saying that other people needed to first. Then I asked if this was a prerequisite to your scumhunting and you said no. I don't understand why you needed other people to scum hunt first then. You said that the meta discussion was getting in the way of your scumhunting, why is that?

Also, I don't really care for IceCream's "my other head did it, don't blame me!" mentality. Very scummy excuse making. Smith is claiming this same action from PP, though if I was in a hydra with Ellibereth I'd be pretty annoyed at his shenanigans as well...so I guess I'd be mildly more forgiving of that. That being said, it needs to stop from everyone. Take accountability for everything your hydra says or be lynched.

[Crab Canon]

I know you probably have some personal tell related to Sotty that is driving this but do you really expect any answer other than ‘No’?

Asking people if they are scum is usually game-start garbage, but this is the one person where I've seen someone ask the question give a decent early read to me. Obviously you get a negative; obviously Sotty isn't answering (and I think this discussion interferes with the observation enough to nullify the answer anyway.).

BZTTT … incorrect. From a scum perspective they know their own members and thus know what players out there are most likely to be dangerous to them. As an example –

Sotty was able to more or less nail Zachrulez in /invitiational 8 simply because she knew his playstyle so well

. Scum are going to know those players who can read them as scum the best, if those players exist in the game. So going for a full name-claim lays the information out there.
A Town protective role, on the other hand, has no inside knowledge. God forbid if they choose to defend a ‘Vet’ Hydra based on being the heads being vets as opposed to Town play and that Hydra is Mafia.

My whole point was that you keep saying advocating nameclaiming has a strong scum motivation despite your own examples including quite strongly the flipside of town motivation.
You say that Sotty was such a threat to Zach because she knew him so well. That scum are going to know those people who can read them as scum the best. So, working within your premises, this

already contains

the the assumption that Sotty can benefit from knowing who Zach is so much that she becomes a threat for it. See underlined.

CrabCanon – Says not much, other than to perhaps dismiss it as worthy of conversation since it was Elli doing his regular pointless play.

From my part, I see mostly "lulz" motivation rather than either scum or town. This was not something designed to be a long-standing deception to mess with meta or so, I don't see how it wouldn't very probably come out very soon.
I do think confusion (especially if variants would include roleplay of others) is anti-town, this time the effect did actually give some read on TnJ though (more town). PP is in the dunno category to me.

[Crab Canon]

From a scum perspective they know their own members and thus know what players out there are most likely to be dangerous to them. As an example – Sotty was able to more or less nail Zachrulez in /invitiational 8 simply because she knew his playstyle so well. Scum are going to know those players who can read them as scum the best, if those players exist in the game. So going for a full name-claim lays the information out there.

1) Scum have already probably figured out who everyone is based on slips at this point. They had much less of the player list to figure out from the start, so leveling the playing field is a good thing. More information for town is a good thing. 2) The situation of Sotty figuring out Zach is essentially irrelevant since they are MARRIED in real life and know each other better than almost any two other scummers on this board could. I'm sure if I lived with someone I could tell if they were lying right away too. Plus Zach has a fairly distinctive scum style.

A Town protective role, on the other hand, has no inside knowledge. God forbid if they choose to defend a ‘Vet’ Hydra based on being the heads being vets as opposed to Town play and that Hydra is Mafia.

This is false because scum would have just as much incentive to kill a townie playing hydra as they would a Vet hydra. Being old to MS does not mean you're scumhunting well automatically. At least your vote is in a good spot.

Logically Town players who were strongly for outing of heads should see PP’s actions as equally Anti-Town / Scummy.

I see them as anti-town, but see little to no scum motivation for acting like an idiot.

Chimaira's vote post 188 is ridiculous. 'I see no town reason for doing it, therefore it's a scum reason.' False dichotomy is false.

I think Faranor sums it up well:

Herp a derp a fucking derp wat.

I like you, man. You're crazy, but I like you

First, that's not what I said at all. I said I'm taking note of the conversation. Second, it was more for the benefit of my other head seeing as we aren't anywhere close to being in the same timezone so communication is hard.

Ah, the old timezones effing with your QT. That makes sense.

A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

I figured it was standard procedure to ask questions and not answer them until the end because it can influence people's responses. Later it wasn't even that important because I just went right on ahead with the nameclaim, but hey if you wish I shall answer them.

Which is it? Both?


This game is way too schizo and has too many talking points that aren't going anywhere solid at the moment. More severe grilling of the scummiest people, less arguing about anti-town things. Please.

[Crab Canon]

Not really. Just trying to be clear so I understand better.

[Crab Canon]

Liking someone's argument or not doesn't necessarily correlate with thinking someone is town or not.

No, it doesn't necessarily correlate. However, if you're town, you tend to agree more often with other town members...correct? Seems like if you're agreeing with the scumbags, then you're doing it wrong.

Please mention us seperately. I don't think I did that anywhere. I even answered accusations against Cream.

Ah, no. You're not going to be mentioned separately because you're a single player in this game. I dont' care which one of you did it, you were making excuses. I'm referring to this:

2> That was Cream. And you contradicted your first post again, saying I think meta will slightly help then saying I ignore that meta does work.
3> Like I said, Cream just gave his general page read. Do you really think he's making a case?
4> Meaning ..?

Your reply was basically, "It was Cream fuhgetabouit!"

I can also tell you why accidentaly revealing your real name is slightly protown, but scum would abuse that, wouldn't they?

Sometimes I wonder the things that go through your brain.

-I think I tend to agree with Master Spy's assessment of TaJ's questions. I don't see how they were a trap to catch PP or anyone else. I found them rather innocuous bordering on useless. To claim they were some great ploy sets of an alarm bell to me. *Note to other head to give me an opinion in the QT on this one*

For your statement to be true (based on my own notes) scum have to be significantly in a group of 3 Hydras (Chim, bv311, T&J) that at this point are unknown. Unless of course you can tell from post styles who those players are.

Well, I feel like MoI is definitely in T&J. I can't say the rest. You make an ok point that it may not be entirely clear, but we're definitely headed in that direction and a couple more reveals will pretty much lock it in to place. Kind of silly that we wasted so much breath in this game on something that was essentially inevitable, but whatever.

But if you are implying you have everything vetted out feel free to post your conclusions. That would be in line with giving Town more information, correct?

It's not quite completed. Once my list is finished though, I will be posting it in its entirety.

So are arguing against my theory that Docs should just protect the Hydras they feel are playing the most Pro-Town as opposed to based on name recognition? I’m confused because it looks like you are trying to assert the same thing as I am.

I do think any protective roles should target hydras that are the most pro-town/likely to die. I thought the whole argument you're making though is that if we reveal our names the Vet hydras are going to get picked off, which is what I think is not really correct. Am I missing something or did I read something wrong?

Don't understand the point or usefulness of Pineapple's 215. At all. Looks like a lot of busy work with very little actual scumhunting.

So one half of this hydra is Sotty. Hi. I have made all the posts so far bar one, (the initial vote on PP). I have being having a disagreement with my hydra head over coming out in thread and have reached a comprise, in that I just won't tell who my other half is. I prefer to just be as open as possible, they want to play it a different way, cool by me. This is another reason I haven't really settled into this game yet, but hopefully now we have reached a settlement I can just plow away.

VP here. Kind of perturbed that it took you so long and you're only seemingly doing it now because it's inevitable that everyone will find out. I honestly expected you to be one of the people to back me up on the pro-town nature of name claiming. Oj called this post "quite apologetic" from you...though I don't know if that means she believes you or not. I can say I have a certain skepticism, but she and I will talk it over and come to an official position soon.

2. as to the call-people-town-thing:
a) there is no pro-town reason to do so:
-> If said players are not being attacked in that moment, you throwing out a town read is not going to do anything
-> If those players are being attacked in that moment, if you do not explain why you think they are town, you are not helping either
-> it does not help scumhunt, since there are too many players left and you are not going to find scum by elimination
-> It tells scum who you think town is, which is usually not good, as they can pick NK-targets better
b) there are scum-reasons to do so:
-> you buddy up to players, hoping they won't attack you
-> you post "reads", while actually not posting nothing of content. Therefore, you look pro-town, or at least attempt to do so.

I don't think there is anything that wrong with posting a few town reads. It's not like we're compiling ordered lists from scum-->town, so I really don't think one player have a few town reads is going to benefit scum really at all. This seems like reaching to me. What do you think of Pineapple and IceCream?

[Crab Canon]

Unvote, Vote: bv311

[Crab Canon]

Now we're talking. I invite TnJ and FourTigers along.

Two more people after that to put him to L-1!

[Crab Canon]

Good to see you're watching the thread and intentionally not posting in it. More lynching this scum please.

Chimaira - Even though it is an impossibility that Troll could be town in a game where I'm (VP) town, I'm going to continue to at least

believe

it's possible. Prove it to me by voting bv311. *bats eyelashes*

[Crab Canon]

The fact of the matter is the fake-claim further derailed the thread from significant scum-hunting (and we already had a rocky start with the whole Name Your Heads debate that dominated the early pages). That’s very Anti-Town at best. And yet because Elli’s regularly plays in Anti-Town manner it is waved away. Had any of a number of other players in the game with a different playstyle (for example analytical) made the same move I guarantee the reaction would be much different. And that burns my ass. Because very Anti-Town move (with no positive Town upside) is bad regardless of who makes it.
[/rant off]

Most of this is quite disagreeable; see Furry who already elaborated on scum/town motivation. Actually the shenanigans didn't even really end up being all that distracting imo, and (untentionally?) caused much better a read on real Lateralus' hydra for me, which is a positive town upside.
But what's more interesting, what do YOU think about Professor Paradox?
So far you are repeatedly calling the action anti-town. You call lack of consistency that pro-identity-revealing hydras don't find it scummy, and then get markedly annoyed that others don't find it scummy. Plus you question TnJ's reaction.
But I can't find a single sentence stating your position on PP. Are they scummy to you or not?

I don't understand why Mastespy/Chimaira considered TnJ's "not answering own questions" as a (even if weak) scumtell. Even if they would have actually been very keen on the questions rather than mostly keen to force Elli to elaborate on the Lateralus claim, there's no particular town motivation in answering your own questions, it doesn't bring you anything you don't know yet. It might make you look more open, but that's tending to appearances. (It might also be more relevantly open later if you have something requiring actually commiting to real positions on other players lynch-worthiness etc. but these were RQS type self-referential stuff. Hardly binding, especially regards to order of answering.)

VP and I might not be completely on the same page with this but I also do believe TnJ's intention with the questions was to press on the Lateralus-fakeclaim and that he's probably not faking. Tom jumped straight to the questions upon confirming, a bit after Elli had fakeclaimed, and hung immediately on Elli's answer, ignoring all else. The timing and the timing of coming out makes sense to me, and I can relate to fishing for more fake-Lateralus even though I don't think this was necessarily a very efficient way to get it.

IceCream, what is the reason you are present in the thread but so far have not voted at all?

Other than Bowser, this head does not much care for TJ and IceCream.

Why? What's your read on Pineapple?

Funny how fourtigers should want to easy-vote bv over suspects/scumhunting though, what with a week left before deadline.

Uh, I haven't checkd his earlier she specifically said he would vote you at deadline and not now. Why do you pick on him and not the us/Smith who actually voted for you?

This head has not read the game yet. There is already quite a lot of content in this game as of page two, be patient.

Yeah no. Page 2 was

10 days

ago, patience should have gone to the trash a lot earlier than now, and you posted explicit approval of your other heads Bowser comments which referenced beyond page 2. You didn't really care what you were approving of did you.
MORE VOTES

Oj

[Crab Canon]

EBWOP to paragraph under my second bv311 quote, I cut something falsely in the middle of it:

Uh, ignoring previous suspicion he stated on you, he specifically said he would vote you at deadline rather than now. Why do you pick on him and not the us/Smith who actually voted for you?

[Crab Canon]

IceCream, what is the reason you are present in the thread but so far have not voted at all?

..and retracted, missed it in iso. Votes from before official end of confirmation stage have never counted though.

[Crab Canon]

Pineapple's heads and the White Spy have been prodded.

Also, in accordance with the Black Spy's request, I'm going to be doing a VoteCount every page, when possible. I'm currently leaning towards editing it into the top of each page.

I would prefer if you did them in separate posts, just to making isoing votecounts easier, please. I don't think they need to be every page. I think a good general rule is once a day or once a page, whichever is appropriate for the posting rate of the game. Not telling you how to run your game of course, just my thoughts on it.

[Crab Canon]

While I appreciate wonderful lesson on Scum versus Town motivations by FourTigers at 261 I don’t really need the lesson. Thanks for that. I already know the difference between scummy and Anti-Town play. [...] I find Professor Paradox null leaning scummy. I don’t see any scum-hunting or play that I would characterize as Pro-Town. I would characterize the Hydra’s play as very similar to Pineapple’s and Bv311’s.

Why would you be ranting/annoyed about others not pursuing something you also apparently also saw as anti-town rather than explicitly scummy then?
What's your current read on TnJ?

Oj

[Crab Canon]

Woah, what is this glitch????
I posted the previous post about one minute ago (18.02 EST) and it got placed five hours ago, before the post I was quoting. I've breaked cause and effect?

[Crab Canon]

AND AGAIN.
take that, arrow of time. Well the physics equations do theoretically work both ways.
OJ-CRAB-TRIPLEPOST HAPPENED AFTER MASTERSPY POST.

[Crab Canon]

third, @ CC: why the start of the bv311 bandwagon? i agree with it in the sense that i dont like his play so far this game either, and i'm not against lynching him, but to me it seemed to come almost out of the blue and/or in response to Zorblag putting him on his shortlist.

lol, you seriously think it's related to troll. This post to me looks like Pineapple hedging his bets on his buddy getting run up out of nowhere. The reason I voted bv311 was because he was doing nothing and I wanted a read on him. His intent to continue to do nothing shows me that he stands at least a decent chance of being scum and would be a great lynch today. You saying 'oh well, I'd vote him but I'm not going to' screams scum buddy. If he flips scum, you may as well kill us tonight because I'm going to want you dead tomorrow.

Good work Mr Smith and Professor Paradox! You've managed to pull each other off (and thus to an extent undermine) legitimate wagons (Bowswer and bv311) for an exchange that doesn't do anything to show that either of you are the least bit scummy

VP agrees

I still think Bowser is scummier than bv. bv is antitown, but Bowser has been overtly scummy.

I'd like you to elaborate on the specifics of this please.

I’m annoyed because of the inconsistency. Your Hydra began the game stating that not presenting identities of the Hydras immediately was scummy. The premise for this is that Town benefited from the information provide. Yet when Elli specifically went out of his way to lie about his indentity for the lulz your slot writes it off as ‘Elli being Elli’. If you are arguing that Elli specifically putting false information into the thread is not scummy because it would be eventually revealed why isn’t the same valid for those Hydra’s who didn’t immediately disclose their identity. Both circumstances are withholding information from Town. I’m big on consistency.

These are not the same situation at all. Not revealing your heads is an intentional act to withhold information. Elli faking to be someone else is something that is more stupid than anything else. You can't say that heads would eventually be revealed when it was obvious that yourself and others don't think that or you would have simply revealed. I'm sure Elli knew perfectly well that his charade wasn't going anywhere as soon as he did it.

Are things that happened during the (extremely lengthy) pregame any less valid than things that happened after the game started?

I agree with Troll that you're not trying if that's the best you can do on page 14.

[Crab Canon]

Also, repeating the request for a claim. Now. The longer you stall bv, the more you look like scum. I already know you stalk this thread.

[Crab Canon]

Removed. Nice try, though.

[Crab Canon]

Have to talk with my other head tonight, but I personally think finding the scumz on the bv311 wagon is the best place to start, especially since the scum were dumb enough to kill a townie on it. PoE has it fairly narrowed down for me, but I need to discuss and look back through a FourTigers iso first.

[Crab Canon]

My other head has been a bit busy lately, so I'm waiting for her to discuss a few things.

I personally think the Pineapple wagon is good...though the popularity gives me a touch of pause. Obviously his hammer was terrible though, so I guess the scum probably would have considered the need to bus them last night.

Looking over FourTigers ISO there isn't a huge amount to comment on, which makes me wonder if the scum didn't go after him in an attempt to hit a PR. He didn't seem to fond of Pineapple or IceCream though, who would also be high on my scum list. More to come hopefully later today.

[Crab Canon]

If your hydra partner isn't about then you need to start doing that. I'm talking to Bowser, Crab Canon, MasterSpy, Professor Paradox and TomAndJerry here.

Yeah, I hear you. I've been trying to keep my personal opinions posted in the thread, but you're right that we're chugging toward DL so it's time to do this right.

First of all, Smith's vote on Faranor is odd and needs some explanation. I think Faranor look relatively town, so I don't get it and I certainly don't find it acceptable to just be placed there without another word explaining it.

second, i was a bit ticked off at getting put into a similar situation in two different games. what's ironic is your response to the post is essentially what i said it would be. (or at least expected it to be)

You essentially extrapolated every single scenario possible and claimed I would call you scum no matter what you did. I think TnJ is correct in saying that this has almost no basis in reality. You were timidly heading toward the wagon, which I didn't like and pointed out. I don't see how this translates into me creating a catch-22 for you.

i wasn't questioning the wagon so much as i was questioning CC's motives for the wagon or FT's motives for not joining a wagon that he expressed desire to join. i had nothing against the wagon itself.

If you "had nothing against the wagon" then what does it matter why I started it or people joined? If you found him scummy, you shouldn't care who lynches him. I don't see why you keep trying to play both sides of the argument here. You either wanted him lynched or you didn't.

I can’t believe you actually posted this Nik.

You are suggesting that the lynch wagon had either 2 or 3 of the Scum on it despite the fact that they chose to kill on that wagon which would narrow down the pool. That is terribly stupid logic.

I agree with this. The concentration of scum on that wagon is probably not nearly that dense unless the scum are all complete VIs...and I doubt that is the case.

Players of unrevealed public alignment on the Wagon - Crab Canon, Chimaira, MasterSpy, Mr. Smith, IceCream, Pineapple

Players of unrevealed public alignment off the Wagon - T&J, Prof Paradox, Faranor, Bowser

I also think this is a good point and something I was hoping to get to discuss with my partner, but oh well. Statistically speaking, we may be better off attempting to lynch off the wagon. I personally think TnJ looks townie. Prof. Paradox and Bowser probably bother me the most out of the other three, but none of that groups contributions have been all that stellar. I'm still waiting on PP to do something. I thought the fakehead claim thing was kind of townie, but I really expect more out of Elli than that by now. On the other hand Pineapple's hammer still reeks. Bleh.

you say that Masterspy has a 100% chance of being scum, but me and IceCream a 50% chance each. so why is your vote on me and not MS who you appear to suspect more?

(actually rereading this over i think i can see why, but the questions still stands)

This is just weird. I think you raise a valid point if Faranor said that...so why are you saying that you understand why he is voting you? If you're town and the leading wagon, why are you encouraging people to keep their votes on you? Do not like. Especially since you take such an aggressive tone with Chimaira and myself.

I don't think masterspy is scum. That's why.

What? You did just say you thought he was scum in the quoted post. Let me guess, this is Faraday. Here we go with the contradictions. You need to explain that post if you're saying you're not calling MS scum there.

edit- STOP POSTING YOUR CONTRADICTING READS IN THREAD. I really should not have to explain why this is scummy. Again. Stop.

guess I should start by weighing in on the #1 lynch candidate for today. I'll do so with an ISO

Actually, you really need to give a hell of a lot more than this. Like, reads on everyone and the general passage of events in this game. Your regurgipost of other people's points does nothing for me.

I'M BACK.
JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Need to settle in and all that though...will try and get up to date and everything by tomorrow Night.

Waiting.

I really want to hear from IceCream and the gaggle of non-contributors we have.

Vote: Pineapple

Still the scummiest and I want answers to my questions above.

[Crab Canon]

Oj here, a version feeling rather guilty for leaving my partner hanging on nothing.

I was just rereading, and something we haven't mentioned yet is that I found IceCream's hop on bv terrrrrible.
This is a chronological spotlight on what happened - relevance of picked quotes at end of post.

Funny how fourtigers should want to easy-vote bv over suspects/scumhunting though, what with a week left before deadline.

Any lynch is better than no lynch, so I wonder why you would say this. I wouldn't shed a tear over a bv lynch myself.

IC then votes Bowser.

Its funny how you are active lurking and popping up when attacked but don’t even read the post right before yours.
The statement that FourTigers made started “I would vote bv without a second thought if needed at deadline” which makes your back-handed attempt to call him scum null and void.[...]

vote bv311

I still think Bowser is scummier than bv. bv is antitown, but Bowser has been overtly scummy.

Chimaira questions with a sceptic tone how IC can find Bowser and bv very different. IC links to the pre-game based case his partner posted.
then, bv asks for deadline extension and posts:

As for why I called Fourtigers desire to vote us at deadline, despite being a week out from deadline scummy, because it reeked to me as a lack of desire to scumhunt in the week between that statement, and deadline.

to which IC immediately replies

bv just keeps getting scummier and scummier. I don't like how he keeps bringing up fourtigers "I will vote bv if deadline apporaches" comment when it isn't inherently scummy at all.

UNVOTE: Bowser
VOTE: Bv311

This post is a horrible excuse. bv obviously brought up FourTigers again because at least 3 hydras,

including IC theirselves

, asked about it or used it as their reason for voting bv;

not

answering/bringing it up would have been unnatural. Also, as quoted,

after

MSpy used the FourTigers comment being scummy as a reason for his vote, IC still posted bv is just anti-town.

These posts seem somehow disconnected so I was thinking if I could be miraged by heads. But it's not possible. AKnottedRope posted a bit before all this that he was going to be making all the posts from IC from thereon due to it being difficult to coordinate, which in itself I find slightly overcompensatory a measure - we were attacking them for "other head" excuse.

[Crab Canon]

Still fine with my vote where it is, though PP is starting to annoying me with their non-contribution. Smith playing activity monitor is LOL considering how generally useless they've been today. IceCream vote is also LOL and appears to largely be based out of me repeatedly bringing their name up with Pineapple. This game is really boring.

@Smith - why bowser over PP?

[Crab Canon]

@MasterSpy: Because I've never played with Oj
VP is scum because of his overall level of commitment, his tendency to start off the game actively and lay low later on. I also have a scum vibe coming from his posts by the level of content that he's producing.

haha, this is rich. So you're claiming meta of me? Weren't you one of the people that didn't want to name claim because of meta reasons? Also, if this is nopoint, you have no idea what my meta is. Sorry, but that's the truth. Is this the bulk of your case or do you actually have anything in thread to go on?

[Crab Canon]

What am I avoiding exactly?

[Crab Canon]

It's your play IceCream. You're kind of holding up the show here. I'd also like you to explain your switch from Pineapple to me in great detail. I presume this means you don't think Pineapple is scum now?

[Crab Canon]

In other news, Pineapple is still a great lynch for today.

If nothing else, the flip will tell us something about the people who are opposing the wagon.

So what exactly happened between your prior post where you wanted to give the pineapple replacement breathing room and this post where you're back on wanting to lynch them?

Prof Paradox’s continued lack of anything remotely resembling content should be plenty of reason to vote him. Get with it Hydras.

For the record, I don't really care for his lack of contribution either and I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt this game, but I'm about sick of that and would lynch him today if there is support before deadline.

I dunno, maybe it's just that Elli and pacman have very similar posting styles (flippant short posts, overuse of capslock and anime smileys), but I keep getting paranoid that they're switching identities.

See, I don't feel like pacman posts like that though. I've played one game with him in my other hydra (Merkabah) and I didn't feel like he played so flippantly. It's not enough to meta anyone really, but I would have expected at least some kind of contribution by now.

Anyway, after a first pass, Pineapple IceCream is a tasty scum combination. I'd prefer IceCream right now, but would happily vote Pineapple at deadline to secure a lynch.

I'd enjoy an explanation.

Ok, this game is at a standstill and we're very close to deadline, so I'm once again going to state my perspective on things and maybe that will help myself and others get involved:

1) Pineapple continues to make very little sense in explaining their hammer or general suspicions today. This is what keeps feeding the part of me that wants them lynched today. I find the general verbal support of it from many players disconcerting in terms of 'oh that could just be a lazy townie'...but looking at the vote counts I see that this continued verbal support hasn't really translated to consistent vote pressure. On the other hand, there are very few vote counts, so meh. I think pineapple's name has come up a lot, but only Faranor, Chimaira and myself have been consistently pro-pineapple lynch. Those three names make me want to lynch because I find the other two to be townish. We'll see.

2) Contrary to my feelings about Pineapple, Prof. Paradox is pissing me off to no end and I will lynch them today on nothing more than their utter lack of contribution. They are the lurkiest of the lurkers and I have no idea what any of their stances are in this game. If there is support, you can count me in for that wagon.

3) Bowser's support of the Pineapple wagon is bothersome if only for their on again, off again attitude about it. Their posting in this game seems really fake to me on a gut level and Untrod's indignant attitude about his 'iso Pineapple only' post seems fake too.

4) Smith is no longer a town read of mine. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt as well because Oj found their arguing with me early on to be a bit more town, but I do find it strange that they are trying to turn back to the tough guy attitude again after being outted and admitting that it was an act early on. I don't mind that they don't like the Pineapple wagon, but they seem to be without direction for a good alternative. mykonian is perfectly capable of making a decent case and I'm not seeing much trying to convince other players to move their votes.

@Smith - I'd like you to explain how and when Bowser jumped to the top of your scumlist. Prior to that, you had been pushing Faranor/PP regularly and not really caring much about Bowser it seems to me. Then we get your iso #73, which I find a little ridiculous upon review. Why did you say:

@Bowser:

unvote, vote: Bowser

. Why I ever changed this vote is beyond me.

When you had not voted Bowser since a completely unexplained vote on Day 1? I find your statement suggesting he is such a strong scum read for you to be odd to say the least given the rest of your posting. Additionally, why do you ask Pineapple to claim in that same post when you are implying that you do not support his wagon? I feel like this was asked already, but I could just be remembering something I thought when I read that post. If you did answer already, please direct me to the post or quote it.

Despite the laziness in this game, I think we still have a good chance to win this because I do have some pretty decent town reads I feel. If I had to propose a town alliance right now, I would place it as: Chimaira, Faranor, MasterSpy, TomandJerry, Crab Cannon. That leaves:

Pineapple, IceCream, Mr. Smith, Prof. Paradox

as potential scum. I strongly support lynching out of this pool of players today without a great deal of preference for which one goes. If I was giving benefit of the doubt to one player, it might be Mr. Smith, but I'd like to see how he responds to my questions above. Out of the town reads I have, Faranor is probably the weakest and most gut based. I'm still wary of Troll, I must admit, but that's only based upon my history of playing against him and he's never town. I hate arguments like that because they are dumb, but it's been like 4 or 5 games in a row now I think. He's bound to be town sooner or later I suppose

[Crab Canon]

The principle of a town alliance seems a bit off to me, the purpose of this is town unity correct? Also why was Bowser not included in either side?

Simple oversight. He was meant to go in the Lynch soon pile.

[Crab Canon]

The principle of a town alliance seems a bit off to me, the purpose of this is town unity correct?

Yes, though I don't really know what you mean by "the principle seems a bit off to me". Could you explain for me?

Crab Canon, aside from the whole "It's statistically impossible for Troll to be town in the same game as me" paranoia, do you have any concrete reasons for thinking he's either town or scum? You must know quite a bit about his scum play (as well as Sotty's). So do you see anything from him that's inconsistent with it? Does he always completely blindside you, or do you know how to read him? Do you know what his town play looks like?

Honestly, I can't read Troll at all and I don't really mind saying that. He's a good player because he always sounds so damn logical. Recently learning about his history of taking courses in logic, this makes more sense. He's basically a soothsayer and if he's scum, you're better off to catch him early rather than putting him off for later. I've learned this the hard way a couple of times. That being said, I get town vibes from Sotty, who I am comparatively better at reading. Oj is pretty V/LA at the moment, but she just checked in recently and said Chimaira is her strongest town read, so I am going to go with my gut here and say they are most likely town (despite history!)

-His insistence that he needs to see Pineapple's flip before he can make a single case grates at me. Bowser, just save time and answer this. Who do you think is scum if Pineapple flips town? Who do you think is scum if Pineapple flips scum?

I second this. There is way too much stalling of giving reads and reasons for reads in this game. Pretty unacceptable.

I find Mina's analysis of the bv311 wagon to be mildly intriguing. I honestly do feel like the initial four people on that wagon are town, so it could be a late scum push to counter the bowser wagon...which sort of correlates to some of the crappy votes on the tail end there, but I want to review those votes and their timing before I commit to any opinion about that.

Also, a Pineapple flip (Pineapple turnover?) would provide more info here.

What info do you see coming out of that? Also, you think a Pineapple flip would be informative, but you're voting IceCream....idk about the people in this game.

Hai guys, I'm the lastest head of Pineapple. Hopefully I'll last longer than the last few.

People don't want to play a scum role when they replace in as the leading wagon?

MasterSpy is scummy because his scumhunting looks fake. Statements like, "Wagon position is highly over-rated as a tell," come from scum talking to town. That kind of statement does not come from town who thinks that the person he is talking to is scummy.

This line looks fake. What do you feel about Mina's posts upon replacing in?

I find it amusing that people have such strong townreads ON PEOPLE THAT CAN LOOK TOWN IF THEY WANTED TO.

"Don't form a town alliance, it makes hiding out as scum much much more difficult!"

Unvote, Vote: Ice Cream

Crab strikes me as scum because of his enthusiasm at the start of the game in stark contrast with how he's behaving as of lately, which mostly consists of random comments and posts with discontinued thoughts.

Orly? Do tell. What are these discontinued thoughts I've been having?

However long it takes for people to realize that I'm not going to let this hydra rest on any laurels.

lol, I think that requires laurels to rest on

??? I'm an aggressive player always. There's no tough guy act here.

It was directed at myk since it seemed like he was doing most of the posting for your account.

Calling my Bowser vote unexplained is ridiculous.

Please quote me the explanation you gave for your Bowser vote.

Because you'll lynch him if he doesn't claim, obviously.

...I don't even. You seriously think I should believe you asked him to claim because you KNEW his claim would save him from being lynched? This is the story you're sticking to?


--preview edit--

Why would you give them the benefit of the doubt? I haven’t ever played with pacman but for someone of Elli’s reputation (nominated for Best New Player) the content from him is downright horrible.

I give most people the benefit of the doubt unless they're completely annoying. Also, being nominated for a scummy =/= most awesome scummer ever. It is an open process afterall. elli is a fine player, but his recent close affiliation with DGB has warped his playstyle into being non-contributive imo. It's more of a null tell than anything if you ask me.

[Crab Canon]

I will vote Pineapple at deadline if necessary, but it's my impression that the deadline is being extended.

Mod, please tell us when deadline is now so we know.

[Crab Canon]

Oh bloody hell. Fine.

Unvote, Vote: Pineapple

Oh, and you are scum. But I still have to convince Parama, it seems. I have a null read on pineapple, but Icecream is really not our choice. Faranor is scummy as hell, while Masterspy is obvtown.

1)Still waiting for a legit explanation of why I'm scum.
2)Are you willing to vote Pineapple at deadline?
3)I dont' know what "Ice Cream really isn't our choice" means.

[Crab Canon]

@Smith: post 520. myko or Parama?
yes, this is actually relevant to something in my read. if needed/useful will explain after answer.

[Crab Canon]

Get lost. You were using effing meta reasoning in the post I wanted know the author of (and you have no idea whether my reason for asking was vague crap or not). I can only assume you don't want me to try and see through you.
In other news, Crab has been and will continue to be up to several weeks very VP. I only post if my hands are uncontrollably shaking from tiredness currently.

Oj

[Crab Canon]

I ha ve plenty of chances to post two-liners in nighttime in my timezone.
you are a tosser for trolling me. myko would never say he needs meta.

Oj

[Crab Canon]

I had the idea you were markedly anti-meta but I can't check where I got the impression from and whether I remember wrong (probably I do) right now.
But this makes for a new questions: if you think meta is "very important" in a certain context, whythe hell was your slot (and both heads) drawing out an argument with mine against revealing heads?
And why did you use crappy meta on me (and VP) saying I'm scum for not responding to the reasonless accusation of us being scum - you would have had the knowledge I can barely play mafia at the moment.

Oj

[Crab Canon]

Who is hammering at deadline? No Lynch is not an option.

Pineapple, if you're claiming, you best get in here and do it fast.

[Crab Canon]

We kind of feel there is a degree of sincerity to Pineapple's exasperated claim. Sigh. Anyone up for a last minute IceCream lynch?

That vote count is all kinds of effed up, but I think support may be there. If not, we'll be sure to vote pineapple (again).

@Smith - Oj is saying that you should have known CC would have dropped in activity a touch after having only one head to post. Additionally, this meta of me that you are claiming is laughable in my opinion. You make me sound like I rage anytime someone has suspicion of me, which is pretty inaccurate to say the least.

[Crab Canon]

Do you agree with me that you aren't the person to say nothing?

Everything is situational. There are no hard and fast rules to follow in this game. I responded to IC's vote because he started the idiot wagon. I ignored your initial vote because I felt you were basically poking me with a stick to see if you could get a scummy rise out of me. I could see the town motivation for doing it, so I didn't much care about it. Now, your continued pursuit of it beyond that seems less town to me and that was when I was directly asking you to clarify what you meant by ignoring and such. Oj pursued the same. I still feel you're being intentionally ambiguous about it. Where exactly does your meta of me come from anyhow, because I don't recall playing many games with you recently?

Would you lynch IceCream today over Pineapple?

[Crab Canon]

I didn't say you poked me without reason. I said you poked me to see if I was scum, which isn't really going to get a rise out of me. I guess I disagree with you because I DO think the town reaction to a silly attack is to not distract the town with petty disagreements. You're also shifting the argument away from the meta argument you proposed initially. Why?

[Crab Canon]

I'm basically too lazy to find arguments against Faranor and you, so I posted my real reason for suspecting you. The post was posted in our quicktopic last weekend, I think. In any case, before I knew you were busy. And then, that isn't really an excuse, because I posted about both heads of your hydra. And VP is definately here.

The part about meta-suspecting me due to not responding to the recent no reason vote was outside of the quote from your qt, which means it was made

after

you knew about me barely playing.

I don't think Pineapple's apathetic vanilla claim is likely from scum at this stage. fake-claiming at this point would have given so much more realistic chances for not getting lynched/confusion and noone getting lynched/a cc. basic scum survival instict is lacking since this type of wifom doesn't commonly happen.
but sadly we do need a lynch before deadline. i'd be more in favour of IC at this point. (but pine lynch>no lynch, and all-hydras game means a shitton of logistics in people moving votes argh.)

oj

[Crab Canon]

I didn't say you poked me without reason. I said you poked me to see if I was scum, which isn't really going to get a rise out of me. I guess I disagree with you because I DO think the town reaction to a silly attack is to not distract the town with petty disagreements. You're also shifting the argument away from the meta argument you proposed initially. Why?

Because you already said that it is natural for you to react. (I know it depends on the situation) I expected an aknowledgement of the vote from town VP (or town Ojanen). I didn't get it. I wondered what the reason could be, and I think you didn't want the attention on you, which is scummy. As town nothing would have kept you from asking for a reason or two.

Well I'm not going to try to argue with you if you're just making a terrible assumption. I don't mind scrutiny regardless of alignment, but you should at least try to make it somewhat convincing. The premise of your argument is meta against both our heads and I my refutation is that your meta is terrible. What is Parama's reasoning since he hates meta so much?

[Crab Canon]

I'm here for the record and would vote for people on my poo poo list before deadline if there is enough for a lynch. I agree that Pineapple is definitely acting like dying town and not dying scum. Who is in that hydra currently?

[Crab Canon]

Tell me more about your Chimaira hate. I may be open to the idea of a no lynch...idk. I want to talk to my partner, but I don't know if she's around

[Crab Canon]

I mean, I know conventional wisdom is to always lynch, but that last pineapple post screams town. Keeping another body around that I'm pretty sure is town seems like a greater benefit than what little additional info a flip would give me. Someone show up so I can talk about this.

[Crab Canon]

I know I know. Confirmation is better than guessing and I'm probably just getting the last second jitters about it, but it is a very genuine sounding post. Sigh...I hate deadline lynches like this.

On the other hand, I agree with MS about the Chimaira post. I really think scum would have claimed some type of power role at the last second to cause confusion and try to delay their lynch for another day. It's just proper scum play.

[Crab Canon]

Also, I don't think "anyone can make a convincing town post" but that's probably a separate issue.

[Crab Canon]

what do you think of Pineapple's claim and latest post PP?

[Crab Canon]

blarg, I don't know you guys well enough to make any meta decisions about you.

[Crab Canon]

We shall see. Hope I'm wrong and this is just me stressing over nothing at the last second.

[Crab Canon]

Unvote, Vote: Pineapple

Just in case the mod actually meant to not count my last vote. Best to make sure it goes through.

[Crab Canon]

Current guess for a scumteam: PP-Bowser-Chimaira

If I was including Chimaira as scum, I would probably be strongly looking at this combination.

your vote was on me as of the latest vote count. PP's was the hammer.

Oh, the mod must have fixed it then because it was on IC when it was originally posted.

[Crab Canon]

Sotty, I would like you to answer before the day is up why Pineapple's vanilla claim assured you they were scum.

[Crab Canon]

*hands Smith a bullet*

[Crab Canon]

Assuming three scum, it's Lylo. I suggest you unvote. Nobody quick votes today.

[Crab Canon]

Also, we should mass claim. My vote is for Ice Cream or Chimaira to go first.

[Crab Canon]

Scratch that. I miscounted.

Vote:No Lynch

[Crab Canon]

Why is there so much talking and not so much voting No Lynch? Town is not in a position to be claiming, so unless you caught a scum redhanded without a doubt last night, we're not lynching.