Mini 1068: Prozacs Basic Theme 2: OVER

[q21]

1.) How excited are you?
2.) Do you think you play better as town or as scum?
3.) Assuming you are town, who do you least hope is scum and why?

1. A bit.
2. Personally I don't think I play particularly well as either... Moderately better as town, despite the fact that I've lost more often as town.
3. xvart. He played well last game I was in with him so I hope to have that on the town's side again.

[q21]

Vote: xvart

[q21]

My immediate thought is that who the hell would put a third vote on xvart so early. Upon rethinking, it occured to me a mafia would not do that as it'd draw too much attention. Town points for q21.

Call a spade is a spade - call it anything else, and you're a flaming mafia arsonist. ~ Blackberry, Mini 1068, #25

Thanks for the town points and all... but it really is shameless bandwagoning which isn't particularly indicative of town OR scum. Its null. Why make so much out of a third vote?

[q21]

UNVOTE: BB
We don't want an accidental ahmmer now do we.

Overcautious much? He was only at L-2, did the buswagon on your scumbuddy grow to quickly for your liking?

[q21]

Jahudo, SC, Esp, xvart, Flameaxe = 5 = L-1

[q21]

EBWOP:

Jahudo, SC, Esp, xvart, Flameaxe = 5 = L-2

[q21]

UNVOTE: BB
We don't want an accidental ahmmer now do we.

Overcautious much? He was only at L-2, did the buswagon on your scumbuddy grow to quickly for your liking?

You are calling worrying about an L-2 a scumtell? What are you smoking?

UNVOTE: Blackberry
VOTE: q21

'sgood man... y'wan sum?

Seriously though, he expressed worry not just that the wagon had gotten to big, but rather the specific worry that there would be an accidental hammer - for this to happen it would require (accidental) votes from two people. I felt that worrying about a hammer under those circumstances was overcautious and therefore deserved a question.

The fact that he was mistaken about the vote required to lynch explains his worry, though I urge him to pay more attention in future. xvart then raises an interesting question in 45, but given that it was an RVS wagon I figure the answer of -shrug- pretty much suffices.

[q21]

If you are scum and someone is 100% dead set that you are mafia, do you kill them at night or leave them alive to throw people off your scent?

1. This question does not have sufficient information for a definitive answer.
2. I fail to see any value in this question even if it did have enough information for a definitive answer to be possible.

[q21]

SC - The fundamental difference is that your questions were posed before the game started officially and there was nothing else anyone could do anyway.

[q21]

Not going to condemn Bub for attacking a question I didn't particularly approve of either. By the same token I've liked xvart's play so its time to get rid of my RVS vote on him.

UNVOTE: xvart

[q21]

Me too. I prodded myself, Im sorry.

These people will also now feel the sharp electrified end of my Big Stick (TM) as they havent posted in 72 hours of this post.

drmyshottyizsik
Jahudo
Moospiker

xRECKONERx said he'd be away this weekend so will allow him some extra time.

The vote count is as such.

Espeonage - 1 - Flameaxe
xvart - 1 - Moospiker
Blackberry - 2 - Jahudo, Bub
Bub - 3 -Blackberry, xvart, StrangerCoug

Not voting - 5 - drshotty, q21, cateraction, xRECKONERx, Espeonage

Apparently I'm not playing this game any more since my name is nowhere on the vote count... and Moonspiker's on there twice...

[q21]

Not going to condemn Bub for attacking a question I didn't particularly approve of either. By the same token I've liked xvart's play so its time to get rid of my RVS vote on him.

How does this work? xvart called Bubs vote opportunistic. Do you think his read is honest, but you just disagree with it?

Honesty and accuracy are not synonymous.


VOTE: Shotty
Unexplained reck vote.

[q21]

Sorry for the disappearance. A few things have crept up on me and I'm not going to be able to give this game the attention it deserves until the weekend. Expect proper contribution from me again then.

[q21]

q21 92 - I see where this is coming from, but I personally wouldn't put it down as vote-worthy. Make the same post in question form without a vote, and you'll probably get the same answer. Then again, I haven't played with Shotty...

At the time I made this post I wasn't voting anyone and therefore saw no reason whatsoever to hold onto my vote. If I'd been voting anyone else for pretty much any other reason I'd not have moved my vote, instead making this post as a question rather than a vote - but I wasn't, so I voted. For now I think I'm ready to keep my vote on shotty at east until I see an answer to this.

Shotty, you've said your vote was for pressure and said that people need to be pressured, and I'm not going to counter those points as the former would be your word vs. my imagination and the latter is technically correct if a little vague to be of any real use at the moment. What I want to know is if there was any specific reason you chose reck?

[q21]

xvart actually has an extremely good point and since my vote is currently achieving nothing on shotty...

Unvote, Vote Espeonage

[q21]

I look forward to your response Espeonage... I guess it will only be tomorrow, but its something. I think this game would benefit from some activity from the currently largest wagon.

[q21]

[b[Unvote. Vote Espeonage[/b] (Still L-2)


Just feels like I'm doing something this way. We don't even have a good defence/ chainsaw defence to spark some discussion. This wagon is becoming useless, but he's still the scummiest player so far. I'm caught between vote the scum or move on in an attempt to generate more info... vote the scum wins, but only just.

[q21]

EBWOP

Unvote. Vote Espeonage

(Still L-2)


Just feels like I'm doing something this way. We don't even have a good defence/ chainsaw defence to spark some discussion. This wagon is becoming useless, but he's still the scummiest player so far. I'm caught between vote the scum or move on in an attempt to generate more info... vote the scum wins, but only just.

[q21]

Some of the votes may be ill-reasoned if reasoned at all, but if someone is "the scummiest player so far," then the wagon on him is not 100% useless. That's a contradiction of terms to me.

What I mean is that its not currently doing anything for the game. It isn't generating discussion and therefore not generating info. Its great for the town if we can get some activity going, lynch him and get a scum flip (which I feel more likely than a town flip at the moment). I didn't say the wagon was 100% useless I said it was becoming useless - the lack of activity around it is a large factor in the game's stagnation and if that stagnation continues we will get to the deadline ad though Espy will be lynched there will be almost nothing to draw from that lynch (in the form of VC analysis, interactions, etc) other than the flip itself.

Aside: If this game didn't have an special deadline lynch threshold then the stagnation would lead to a no lynch the the wagon would indeed become 100% useless.

[q21]

Sorry about the need to be prodded. Waiting on Espeonage.

What I mean is that its not currently doing anything for the game. It isn't generating discussion and therefore not generating info.

It isn't generating discussion because Espeonage hasn't commented or defended himself. But it is interesting that you join a wagon and claim it useless.

xvart.

Been voting Espeonage for quite a while now... the vote above is because I was bored, so I unvoted and revoted.

[q21]

V/LA until Wednesday which is my thesis deadline.

Will catch up after that.

[q21]

My thesis is complete and handed in, but now I am tired. Tomorrow will be time for a catch up and if I can make myself do it, a reread. For now, it's sleepiez time.

[q21]

First I'm going to state that shotty feels like his town self to me. I've played with him a few times and read games with him a few others. I'm not going to support a shotty lynch at this juncture.

I do agree that the wagon on shotty is fuelled by scum trying to get the quick easy lynch through. The two most likely culprits of this are Moonspiker and Bub, both of whom voted shotty for his comments about night. Neither of them mentioned, even in passing, reck who had just made similar comments about night... in fact reck's night speculation was more detailed than shotty's, see:

I'm hoping it was a redirector of some sort so we can nail two scumz at once.

Either that, or there's a RB/doc + vig.

When that double standard is brought up the two respond as such.

I dunno. Reck was more just going YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY whereas shotty directly stood out to me as more of a scum reaction. He started asking questions as if he was panicking slightly.

This is a reach. Shotty's posting comes across and a few things, but panicked isn't one of them.

I am not liking the interaction between Reck and Shotty right now. The reason I voted for Shotty was because he's contributed nothing the town so far, and was speculating about the night. Maybe he was surprised at what happend because he knows who he wanted to kill? Small scum-tell at best, but his responses since and his history in this game so far give me no town vibes.

Reck has also contributed very little thus far on D-2.

In fact recks biggest contributions to the thread at the point this post was made were declaring shotty town and... doing the same thing you're voting shotty for. Also, when you voted him, the only thing given as a reason for your shotty vote was the night speculation... the other point, while potentially true, feels tacked on so you could make it look like there was a reason for you differentiating between reck and shotty's night speculation.

I feel quite confident that there is scum between these two... maybe they were even ballsy enough to make the shotty push together. Either way, I happy to vote either at the moment and since Moonspiker is currently the bigger wagon.

Vote Moonspiker[/i]

Also, I don't particularly like this.

drmyshottyizsik, you have until I get home to give me a good reason why I shouldn't move my vote to you.

And you failed to address this post both times you posted since.

UNVOTE: Moospiker
VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

It looks like your trying to give shotty a chance to redeem himself. But this is shotty we're talking about, even if you've never played with him you must know about his reputation and therefore know that the chances of him doing what you ask are slim to nothing. Basically you're first post is an attempt to look like your giving him a chance, when - knowing anything about shotty - that post comes down to: "When I get home I am

going

to vote for you."

[q21]

First... with regard to grammar and tag issues... I'm usually pretty good at checking my posts, but I just finished an 80 page thesis and really couldn't be bothered to proof read anything else.

qn21's tag fails.

qn21, you're voting me (over Bub) because I am the biggest wagon? And that makes sense because?

It makes sense because both you and Bub did the same thing in my opinion. That makes both of you scummy so I'm happy to vote either, rather than force unnecessary division in the town by voting Bub, I voted you.

Since I screwed this up before...

Vote Moonspiker

[q21]

JESUS CHRIST MY NAME HAS NO N IN THE MIDDLE YOU IDIOT

So, ad hom instead of even mentioning something game related. Nice.

drshotty - 4 - moospiker, Bub, Flameaxe, StrangerCoug
moospiker - 4 - drshotty, Reck, Jahudo, Moospiker

Not voting - 2 - Blackberry, Rhinox

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

I think the moospiker voting for moospiker is supposed to be me...

[q21]

JESUS CHRIST MY NAME HAS NO N IN THE MIDDLE YOU IDIOT

So, ad hom instead of even mentioning something game related. Nice.

Says the hypocrite

Um... Where have I been a hypocrite?

[q21]

I agree with reck on shotty, but I'm going to have to disagree now. I see no reason to halt the Moospiker (look I spelled it right) wagon.

[q21]

@Jahudo: Yes. His play was either opportunistic scum, or a VT jumping the gun due to slight disinterest and a "nothing to lose" mentality. Had he claimed a PR, I'd be lynching him.

See, I had a similar view to you. VT or scum. Had he claimed a PR I'd have been convinced of his scumminess. He claimed VT... which he is perfectly capable of doing as scum which means he could still be scum. His VT claim is entirely null in my view, therefore the reasons for which I was voting him earlier remain.

I would vote Bub for similar reasons, but beyond that I don't think there's anyone else I want to lynch today.

[q21]

I said when I voted for Moospiker that I was happy voting for either he or Bub. Rhino's case has swayed me further and I am no comfortable with putting bub at L-1.

Unvote, Vote Bub

[q21]

Apparently, I'm being ignored here. Bub Bidderskins,

DO NOT CLAIM YET.

I am Brittany Black, a doctor, and I protected Bub Bidderskins last night. As I have a 25% chance of killing instead of investigating my target, I'm playing it closer to a vig than a doctor. I believe Bub Bisdderskins to be town because the only person to die Night 1 flipped Mafia.

Well shit. Now I don't know what to think anymore...

Unvote

While I consider. My vote may just go straight back here, but I'm not sure just at the minute.

[q21]

Okay, so I have the chance to tip one of Moospiker or Bub ahead of the other and onto L-2. I don't like the way Moospiker has responded to the situation and I have a better opinion of most of the people voting Moospiker at the moment.

Vote Moospiker

Better bet for scum at the moment in my view.

[q21]

He's already claimed. I'm fine with a hammer any time.

[q21]

Reck is town

If you're saying this because reck's attitude toward shotty makes it look like he was shotty's mason partner then I think you're wrong. Twice shotty was honestly voting reck, one of those being towards the end of the last day and reck went so far as to suggest shotty be vig killed. These are not the actions of mason partners.



Flameaxe - Since you give no fresh reasons for your vote on reck I have to assume that you either have none, or you're using the same reasons that you were for voting him yesterday. The thing is, those reasons - so far as I understand them - are quite severely weakened by both Moospiker and shotty flipping town. Could you please reiterate your reasons for voting reck so that I can get a better idea of where exactly you stand?


The person I'm leaning most toward for scum at the moment is Blackberry. I agree with the points others have raised previously and on going through his posting myself I came across this.

What happens if I start playing?

Also, why the hell is it taking so long for people to bug me about not playing? That's just really odd to me.

He's trying to shift the blame (or at least the emphasis thereof) onto the town rather than himself here. Scummy.

I am hesitant to vote him just yet as I think L-1 might be a little premature here.

[q21]

I get that there are possible reasons reck might think Flameaxe is scum which reck might be unwilling to share. My problem is that without explaining his reasons, which he hasn't done, I don't understand his suspicion.

Look forward to seeing Blackberry's response to being wagoned.

[q21]

I'll answer them myself. I think there was scum on that wagon. Furthermore, I think that that scum is q21.

Okay, so I have the chance to tip one of Moospiker or Bub ahead of the other and onto L-2. I don't like the way Moospiker has responded to the situation and I have a better opinion of most of the people voting Moospiker at the moment.

Vote Moospiker

Better bet for scum at the moment in my view.

At that point in time, both moo and I were at L-3. It seems like he didn't really care which one went to L-2, but he wanted to put some one there. Within a few posts, moo was hammered.

At the time of this post both players were looking equally scummy based on there own play. Both had made early, week votes on shotty and had applied a double standard by not even mentioning reck who had done much the same thing you two were voting shotty for. Neither had dealt particularly well with questioning on the subject. So from the perspective of your individual play alone there wasn't much to choose between the two. The 'situation' mentioned in my post is SC's role claim: It suggested you might be town and Moospiker's kneejerk "SC must be scum" response was bad so he got my vote. And the moospiker wagon was townier.

As for "Within a few posts, moo was hammered." It needs, I think, to be put into some context. Moospiker had already been at L-1 that day (put there by you incidently), he had already claimed and there had already been a fair bit of discussion around his claim. With that taken into account it really isn't very surprising that the lynch went through pretty quickly once he reached L-2.

[Aside: When SC's claim was just a claim it merely cast a small shadow of doubt over my scum read on you. With his flip I'm now of the opinion that you are highly unlikely to be scum.]

Also, here's something from the very start of the game:

vote: xvart

A quick random vote bus maybe?

vote: q21

And this is just week. Maybe if you had a case that was at least vaguely compelling this might add some weight to it. But you don't. Not even close.
These are from the same page as my xvart vote, just to point out how far you're reaching here.

Counter-claim.

Vote: xvart

Vote: xvart

for not claiming arsonist last game and for being a bad husband.

On the other hand, I think you're questions are actually worth answering, so.

1: Do you there were scum on the moo wagon or off it? Why?
2: Who is you main suspect? Why?

1. This is not an either/or question. My answer is: Both. Blackberry on it. Not sure which of the one's on it, but flameaxe is leading that charge.
2. Blackberry. Much of this had already been said (mostly by Rhinox, I think), but you asked. Mostly I suspect him for this post.

Apparently, I'm being ignored here. Bub Bidderskins,

DO NOT CLAIM YET.

I am Brittany Black, a

doctor

, and I protected Bub Bidderskins last night. As I have a 25% chance of killing instead of

investigating

my target, I'm playing it closer to a vig than a doctor. I believe Bub Bisdderskins to be town because the only person to die Night 1 flipped Mafia.

A) Were you planning to claim Cop and then decided to claim Doctor instead? "doctor" ... "investigating" .. huh?
B) If you only have a 25% chance of killing, why would you play it like a Vig? Cautious, yes, but like a vig, no.
C) POROCHAZ WOULD NOT HAVE A ROLE THAT IS ".25 chance you kill, .75 chance you save" ... learn your mods better.
D) Who the hell would claim because someone you may or may not have protected is about to get lynched?

Bub and Stranger are mafia partners.

Also, mafia death is highly likely due to another Bus Driver. Also, why would a Mafia kill Bub? Fail.

Stranger didn't want to lose his last mafia partner thinking there is another killing role out there so he made this gambit. Tough luck.

Mafia identified.

Now, let's grab some beer and hope there isn't a serial killer.

The exact nature of the points A-D aren't hugely important, they're all bad and in my mind constitute a rather blatant attempt to throw mud on SC's claim which is made to look even worse as we now know SC's claim was true. Then there is the way the post is written: the us of colour, bolding, Italics and enlarged. I'm not certain this is the right word in a text based forum game, but it all looks like he's trying to convince us using theatrics rather than any reasoning, logic or evidence.

There are also a bits of his play, comments made throughout the game, that come of as scummy to me. Like this one.

And I'm bored. Bub should be murdered. "Protect him" again Mr. Doctor please.

And another one I mentioned earlier.

What happens if I start playing?

Also, why the hell is it taking so long for people to bug me about not playing? That's just really odd to me.

He's trying to shift the blame (or at least the emphasis thereof) onto the town rather than himself here. Scummy.

I am hesitant to vote him just yet as I think L-1 might be a little premature here.

I'm not going to take a fine tooth comb to his play and post every little minor grievance, but you get the picture. I would vote him right now if he weren't at L-1. Instead I'd like to see a claim and I'd like some more answers to your questions from those who haven't answered yet. (Blackberry, Rhinox, Flameaxe)

[q21]

Arghhhh, I've been flying all day today & most of yesterday and I have to work right now for tomorrow (it's 7:46pm here).

I'll post sometime soon when I get the chance.

Just a FYI, my

character

is the same as my character in the previous game. O_o

You had a chance in this post to make a full claim. You chose not to. If you're next post isn't a full claim and that claim doesn't come in a reasonable time frame (say 24 hours from now) I am simply going to hammer you for the scum I think you are.

[q21]

Berry's claim makes thematic sense, something continues to niggle at me though. Somehow it doesn't seem right that someone should be town or scum based on a previous game, but this is a theme not a normal so... I guess I'm happy to go leave Berry for the immediate future and go with flameaxe at least to put him at L-1 and get a claim and maybe some discussion around that.

Vote flameaxe

[q21]

Flameaxe, regardless of what anyone may have thought of you before, your actions after reaching L-1 are scummy. You have refused to claim, thus stalling the game with the soul intention of saving yourself. You're 'you'll be sorry' attitude (I know you haven't written those precise words, but the attitude has certainly been there) is an appeal to emotion, once again, made with the soul intention of saving yourself.

Personally, even if I'd believed you were town up until now I would hammer you simply for your play since reaching L-1. Sadly I can't since I'm already voting for you.

[q21]

I'm V/LA until Jan 3.

Sorry to disappear at such a crucial time in the game. If the player/mod feel I need to be replaced, so be it but I would like to play this game out.

[q21]

Right. I'm back.

I am Michael Murphy, one of two townie survivors from the previous game along with Nina Jones. My secret: I am a trained physician. My weakness: Every medical textbook, piece of equipment, medication and even my medical licence were left behind in the rush to escape the village in which the first game took place. As such, my medical skills are useless to me, I am a

vanilla townie

.

I'm almost certain Berry is town, given that his role claim matches mine almost perfectly (ie. he was a town power role in the first game, now he isn't), hence my previous comment about it making thematic sense. I mentioned before that I was niggled by roles that could possibly be confirmable based on what they were in a previous game and wondered he wasn't scum just to throw that angle off. I was however willing to go ahead with voting flameaxe and with his flip I'm fairly certain of berry not being mafia. Might still be SK, but I'm inclined not to vote for him today regardless.

Reck is looking good for godfather based on his interaction with flamey. He may have interpreted flameaxe's gung-ho attacks as extreme bussing and responded in kind or, and my impression is that he's smart enough for this, he figured out/guessed that flameaxe was a usurper and his apparent forgetting about the usurper role in his scenarios post was intentional.

Bub's claim does have a bit of a hole in it with shotty having voted him twice and him voting shotty, but since they were apparently uncomfirmed I guess that isn't too surprising. What I find most telling is that he told us about them being uncomfirmed and given that shotty was town he cast doubt on his own claim by doing so. This suggests honesty, which suggests town. No offence Bub, but I my read of your play is that you aren't subtle enough to do that intentionally. So, barring something spectacularly unexpected from Jahudo I'm not voting Bub and am actually picking Jahudo for SK if the psychiatrist wasn't just a red herring.

I think, though, that we should be focused on getting the scum first though, which is why my vote is most likely to go on reck. Sorting out the possible SK in Jahudo/Berry is secondary at the moment.

[q21]

Reckoner is flailing. I considered trying to point out some of the faults in his comments, but berry has been doing that perfectly well and reckoner's responses have been, simply put, irrational, because a rational outlook on the situation shows him to be the prime suspect for scum. Jahudo's claim does nothing to decrease my view of reckoner's scumminess, therefore:

Vote reckoner

[q21]

Also, Jahudo... do you really think there'd be an investigation immune AND nightkill immune godfather? Because if you're saying I'm the GF, and we've already established the Godfather HAS to have NK immunity, AND you got an innocent on me, then you're saying I'm a pretty overpowered godfather.

I just had a thought. The GF wouldn't need NK immunity if he was the only one who could use the faction kill while he was still alive. I think I've heard of games where the GF is the one that has to use the kill. I'll try to remember where.

I modded a game with a usurper. The godfather didn't necessarily have to carry out the kills himself, but he had final say on who made the kills and who the kills were targeted. The usurper had it pointed out in his role PM that they wouldn't be able to use the mafia's kill on the godfather. Of course, this is quite probably moot now that we're about to get a reckoner flip.

[q21]

EBWOP:

Also, Jahudo... do you really think there'd be an investigation immune AND nightkill immune godfather? Because if you're saying I'm the GF, and we've already established the Godfather HAS to have NK immunity, AND you got an innocent on me, then you're saying I'm a pretty overpowered godfather.

I just had a thought. The GF wouldn't need NK immunity if he was the only one who could use the faction kill while he was still alive. I think I've heard of games where the GF is the one that has to use the kill. I'll try to remember where.

I modded a game with a usurper. The godfather didn't necessarily have to carry out the kills himself, but he had final say on who made the kills and who the kills were targeted. The usurper had it pointed out in his role PM that they wouldn't be able to use the mafia's kill on the godfather. Of course, this is quite probably moot now that we're about to get a reckoner flip.

[q21]

I generally enjoyed this game, possibly because it falls amongst the few games I've actually won... but in general I think I played well and I think everyone else played well enough for the game to be interesting. The Usurper might have been a little too much of a handicap for the scum, but then again leading a godfather lynch usually nets you a boatload of town cred which means Usurpers who succeed usually come out looking pretty good to get the win for themselves and there faction.