Mini 1015 (GAME OVER - inquire within for results)

[eldarad]

furcolow, I don't understand what you are saying in #873?

Friend, what are your thoughts on the Snarky wagon? With hindsight, do you think it is a wagon driven by scum? Or did the scum stay off the Snarkywagon Yesterday?

[Furcolow]

just off a thor iso, casual conversation. read it that way, and imagine me discussing who we should lynch as a town.

[eldarad]

just off a thor iso, casual conversation. read it that way, and imagine me discussing who we should lynch as a town.

OK. So Thor reckoned I am town. Do you agree?
I don't see anything in Thor's posting that suggests that he thinks jmurph is scum, except perhaps that she is lurking a lot. Do you think Thor was suggesting jmurph was scum?

Don't you think it will be beneficial to explore the vig claims Today? And, you know, look at what happened Yesterday rather than starting a wagon straight off the bat?

Friend, who did you target last Night?
Orochi, who did you target last Night?

[Friend]

Already answered that eldarad.

About the snarky wagon, I bet one or both was on it. Of those on the wagon, I can definitely see foilist, Furcolow, and MS (to a lesser extent) as scum in that order.

Then again my vote is on jmurph, so I'll stick with "one scum was on the wagon."

[drmyshottyizsik]

Vote Foilist

[eldarad]

Vote Foilist

We aren't in random vote stage now. Why are you voting for Foilist? I don't need quotes and text walls, but I sure as hell want your reasons, in your own words.

Who do you think is Foilist's scumbuddy?
Do you think Furcolow and Midnight Sorrow are townies? Why?

[foilist13]

Presumably he is voting me because I voted snarky after he voted me and was wrong.

However, that means my read of snarky was wrong, so my read on Friend may be wrong as well.

He did not shoot at any of the people he suggested he would though

[Friend]

Are you talking about me?

[Furcolow]

just off a thor iso, casual conversation. read it that way, and imagine me discussing who we should lynch as a town.

OK. So Thor reckoned I am town. Do you agree?
I don't see anything in Thor's posting that suggests that he thinks jmurph is scum, except perhaps that she is lurking a lot. Do you think Thor was suggesting jmurph was scum?

Don't you think it will be beneficial to explore the vig claims Today? And, you know, look at what happened Yesterday rather than starting a wagon straight off the bat?

Friend, who did you target last Night?
Orochi, who did you target last Night?

i feel thor was suspicious of jmurph. considering thor's last statement was support of a foilist lynch, no, i actually disagree with you. he needs to die.

Already answered that eldarad.

About the snarky wagon, I bet one or both was on it. Of those on the wagon, I can definitely see foilist, Furcolow, and MS (to a lesser extent) as scum in that order.

Then again my vote is on jmurph, so I'll stick with "one scum was on the wagon."

are you crazy? i am not scum. rofl
honestly?


I have scum meta now
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14990

[foilist13]

@Friend: Yes I'm talking about you. I have a scum read on you, remember?

[Friend]

I already told you I got roleblocked, remember?

[foilist13]

How is that supposed to affect my scum read on you? I had the same read yesterday.

Furthermore, I ALSO claimed to have been roleblocked and I lied, so it's not that hard for me to not take what you're saying at face value.

[Friend]

He did not shoot at any of the people he suggested he would though

I was referring to this.

That last statement of yours is scummy - you're saying that my claim to have been roleblocked is scummy, but you did the very same thing yourself.

[foilist13]

That's an interesting straw man, but ultimately irrelevant. My claim has been discussed. I lied in a generic way, which would make sense for you to do as well. I am less inclined to believe you though because you were told you were roleblocked. Normally one's actions simply do not go through, but every so often the mod will notify the person. Whether or not I think this mod would do that is ultimately WIFOM, though even that is not comforting.

[eldarad]

considering thor's last statement was support of a foilist lynch, no, i actually disagree with you. he needs to die.

Well I want to discuss Yesterday in more detail. I think the Snarky wagon is the first one that will give us useful information, since the Day 1 lynch wagon was messy and way short of a majority. I would like to be able to do that without the possibility of the Day ending early.

And whilst I agree that we can be sure that Thor's opinions were held sincerely, it doesn't automatically follow that he is correct. So I would rather we held fire on the lynch for now.

~~~
I'm very keen to hear shotty explain his reasons for his foilist vote.

[jmurph3]

Firstly, unless I'm drastically misreadding Thor's iso, I don't see him being that suspcious of me. Yes, he called me out on lurking, but lurking =/= scum.

At the moment, I want Orochi's replacement to get here and actually answer some/a lot of the questions we have for him.

As a question that just popped in my mind:

@Mod: Will Orochi's replacement be aware of any of his night actions (i.e. if he was roleblocked, etc.)?

Any and all replacements with a power will be given knowledge of the predecessor's actions (or inactions).

I don't disagree with the Foilist wagon; however, I, like eldarad, see no reason to rush into a lynch without looking at things from every angle. Also, to those claiming that Thor was on the foilist wagon, Thor's statement:

I now support a foilist lynch again

is based on the previous statement by foilist where foilest didn't get Thor's joking reference to hating tiramisu. It had nothing to do with Thor actually being on the foilist wagon.

@Friend: why did you choose me to vig last night when you previously stated that you were going to vig Orochi?

[Friend]

I changed my mind. I figured that if Orochi was indeed telling the truth, we would find out today. No use shooting someone who could have confirmed themselves as town overnight. But, due to the lack of shot, I'm highly suspicious. The one thing that's got me worried is that claiming one-shot vig as scum is an odd move to make, IMO.

[Furcolow]

jmurph's defense of foilist is noted
could be scum buddying to town, though

unvote: foilist
vote: jmurph

if my logic is right, jmurph is scum

[eldarad]

But, due to the lack of shot, I'm highly suspicious. The one thing that's got me worried is that claiming one-shot vig as scum is an odd move to make, IMO.

Personally I'm more confused by there being two competing one-shot vig claims, at least until Foilist unclaimed. As I said way back at the time, I didn't rule out both being scum (I still don't, by the way).

Basically, my view is that if scum are more concerned about the existence of a watcher rather than a cop then having two scumbuddies claim one-shot vigs is a pretty clever way of side-stepping that issue, although it is also an extraordinary gambit.

Whether that's true or not, Enigma's counterclaim makes me much MUCH more suspicious than foilist's unclaim. Add to that Enigma's failed vote just before deadline (which, if successful would have saved Uitescum...and potentially foilistscum for that matter) and I would much rather lynch Orochi.

Enigma/Orochi's failure to kill last Night and the Night before is becoming a pattern that I don't think is consistent with a claimed one-shot vig. I also note that if Orochi had missed the Night deadline then the mod would have randomly assigned him a Night action.

If Enigma/Orochi flips scum then I am prepared to entertain the possibility of Foilistscum (as part of a Uite-Enigma-foilist scumteam) but even then I have my doubts. It just seems like a thinly veiled policy lynch.

I do note that foilist's unclaim was after it was clear from the Night message that the Night 1 kill was performed by the same party (ie the mafia) as the pre-game flavour kill:

Written above the front window were the words, "DANAKILLSU? WEKILLSDANA. HARR HARR HARR."

in the same handwriting as before

. It was clear to the town that there were still more scum to be found...

...but again I have less concerns about foilist's unclaim than I do about Enigma's counterclaim. For one thing, I can see foilist-vanilla townie fakeclaiming one-shot vig and the unclaiming. I can't see Enigma-vig counterclaiming a vig claim that he doesn't buy.

VOTE: Orochi

~~~
Furcolow, your logic fails.

~~~
shotty, explain your vote on foilist. Now.
#879 is the scummiest post I have seen all game and I very much want to hear your reasons, as well as why you think Furcolow and Midnight are town.

[jmurph3]

@furcolow: So now I'm scum because I pointed out a fallacy in your argument? I never said that I disagreed with the foilist wagon, just that a large portion of your argument (such as it is) seems to be based on the fact that Thor made a comment about the foilist wagon.

@eldarad: how is shotty's vote without explanation any different from furcolow's multiple votes without explanation?

[Friend]

I'm going to hold off on an Orochi vote until a replacement shows up. I'm very interested to hear what they have to say.

[esuriospiritus]

Hoopla replaces Orochi/Enigma. Many thanks and a Stargate-themed cake to Hoopla!

[Friend]

Hoopla...you've got some 'splainin to do!

[Hoopla]

Hi everyone, and hello to the few of you I've played with before. Before I begin, I must confess, I'd been partially skimming this game prior to my entry, so I'm well acquainted with the situation we've got on our hands here, and I was 90% sure Enigma/Orochi was town, which is a large reason why I replaced in. The other reason is because I think I can break this game with one scum down already for the cost of only mislynch.

To begin with, my previous town read on Enigma was based squarely on the timing of his claim given the game-state. There was absolutely ZERO reason to counterclaim foilist's claim if he was scum, as that unnecessarily pins him into a claim he cannot deliver upon, which is ridiculously dim. Counterclaiming as town was also a foolish decision, but is slightly more forgivable, because it's an instinctive reaction to a claim - it happened a mere 90 minutes after the original vigilante claim. Scum do not make such brazen, reckless decisions that equate to suicide - it's just not what they do, and this is even more true for someone relatively new to the game, which is how I perceived Enigma.

Having received my role PM, I have another surprise for you all. Enigma was misleading with his actual role PM, which is hilarious considering our other so-called vigilante is not one either -

I am an Odd-Night-Vigilante

, not a 1-shot-vigilante. Orochi did not shoot on N1 (I'll give my theory based on this shortly), so I have a shot again tonight. I'm posting this now as a show of good faith, and to show that I'm here, working on catching up to a level I see fit. But this trend of fakeclaiming, gambiting townies is toxic and is almost always not thought through properly, and I'm a little ticked off I've signed myself up into this position, when I thought it was a bit more straightforward.

Right, I'll let everyone mull this over for a bit while I finish my read. I'm almost positive this is the right thing to do now, though, so if anyone has questions, ask me them now and I'll try to answer.

[Friend]

Well, that does make a whole lot more sense, I suppose. Even night and one shot seemed like a strange combination. However, I find it strange that Orochi didn't realize this error either. One person overlooking it I can see, but two?

However, I do see your point about the timing of the claim and agree that a 1 for 1 there would be strange as scum. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, although you'll probably be roleblocked tonight and therefore unconfirmable.