Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[Stef]

Hello! Nice to be playing with some people I've played with before.

Vote David Parker

for being the first to post.

[Stef]

2. if scum would get the Vig ability, they would pass it around the team, thereby creating a second mafia kill. The mechanic would be useless, and almost never 2 mafia kills are balanced in a mini, so the current Vig is a townie.

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie

.
3.

[*]

A clarification of Action Resolution:

The passing of the Vigilante ability onto another player occurs last in the series. Therefore, a kill targeted at the owner of the ability on night start will successfully eliminate the ability.

2. Hmmm...

Following the use of the Vigilante ability (or lack thereof), the current holder must select

a player

to pass the ability on to.

The ability will then move on to the selected player for their use.

The Vigilante Ability stacks with any ability you may have in your original Role PM.

What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

[Stef]

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1. Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.
2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

[Stef]

Hmm... I was wrong. Scum having the vig ability would mean they could just pass it on among themselves and thus completely breaking the game. Mykonian is therefore probably right and not scummy for that post.

Unvote, Vote Scorp

[Stef]

right isn't not scummy either, myk did you really find stef suspicious?

I know but it was the only thing that struck me as scummy about him. Sometimes wrong = scummy, sometimes it doesn't. This looked like an instance when it would. Anyway.

[Stef]

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

Your interpretation of what I wrote =/= my intention. If I am not specific ask for clarification. Otherwise it's just a misrep. I never implied that I didn't think you were scummy for using wrong logic. Being wrong can be intentional if your stake is that others won't pick up on it or will be as wrong as you are. I voted for you because to me it looked like you were preparing as scum gambit to confirm one of your partners/yourself D1.

Once I understood that you were right the whole scumminess of what you did disappeared and pending other scummy things I have no reason to keep voting for you.

[Stef]

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

this is stef's first mention of scorp. This is page 2. Scorp hasn't done anything scummy, however is the first BW. this FoS... is terrible!

anyway, the same FoS is converted into a vote when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong). it is still terrible!


Run, scum, run!

Nah, voting for players who you suspect crack under pressure is not terrible. Also, terrible =/= scummy but hey, everyone's a critic. - makes the vote worthless.

Before I unvote though, Scorp, something jack noticed does strike me as a lil bit odd. I know that I initially voted you to add some pressure, however, you seem to be fine parking your vote on me without me giving any reasons and adding pressure is obviously not it. Why not ask if I don't give any reasons? Would it be because it gives you an excuse to park your vote?

[Stef]

Jack: Why would you think the town needs more leeway as to nerf down the mafia to two scum?

[Stef]

How could that be considered fishing? What jack said could not be based on the knowledge possessed by a town PR but either a theory or scum knowledge because town would not know how strong/weak the town is.

[Stef]

Or town could know how strong the town is but that would imply a stronger mafia, not a weaker one so... It's really not related to any PR Jack may or may not have.

[Stef]

@ dana. It isn't the scummiest vote so far. That has been stef's vote on Xscorpion, which seems to be supported by evidence, but actually isn't!

But actually isn't! Oh wait ... what?

Jack is probably town. Don't see what he's doing with the selfvoting exactly though. Jack, no place more useful for your vote than yourself?

Sorry bout that, I still have to wash the bad taste of Open 231 out of my mouth. I sometimes forget that people might actually answer me when I ask them why they're voting...

So... you apologize for not asking what my reasons were for voting for you. Nice. Liking my vote. Also, OMGUS rocks!

[Stef]

Mykonian:
"Stef voted scorp without any reason" - false, I stated my reason
"Scorp votes Stef for having no reasons for his vote" - Scorp did not know if stef had any reason. He didn't even bother to ask. He voted for me for voting for him. It is blatant OMGUS.

You don't even bother telling people why you did vote scorpion. (actually, you have no reasons.

Here you are lying again.

By misreping me, lying about me not giving any reasons for my vote and by validating XScorp's vote when it was clearly OMGUS you're not doing the town any favors.

Unvote, Vote Mykonian

no way this is lack of attention.

[Stef]

I posted my reason for voting Scorp after I voted for him. At this moment you're just spamming.

[Stef]

I'm starting to see the point of RVS. Take it out of the equation and scumtells transform from actual arguments to extremely weak cases. More discussion would have been preferable before the serious voting started.

@Magna: I've got 4 votes on me. You can vote for me and put me at L-2.

I'm going to

Unvote

. Tunneling isn't helping and there's half the game I haven't been paying attention to. If I still find mykonian to be the scummiest player after the reread the vote will go back.

[Stef]

@The Scorp Fos/Vote: I've seen him react to pressure and I thought it would be a good place to put some to get reactions. Once I voted he voted right back instead of asking for reasons. That => he voted for me voting for him. If he would have had a problem with my reasons he would have asked, something I pointed out previously. It's just fishy.

@Mykonian: You constantly refusing to acknowledge that I gave a reason for my attack on scorp really rubbed me the wrong way. Antihero was able to find my posts related to the subject easily. You, instead, quoted ALL my posts which did NOT explain my reasons and said that I did not post any reasons. Why would town do that exactly?

The fos was just part of me putting pressure on him. Then his OMGUS vote on me happened. You call what I did voting and then hoping to get a case. The way I see it when you vote for pressure and you get scummy reactions you stick to your vote. THIS is the case here. Everything else is speculation together with a lie that I did not explain my actions.

@DavidParker: I guess you could be more useless. I'm guessing you shouldn't. How about you actually give some reasons for your lists and not just make everyone else figure what you mean?

@Antihero: It is scummy because of the OMGUS. Him invoking another game for not asking me why I voted for him is just fluff. Not defending yourself whatsoever is anti-town. I would never let an unexplained vote on me without even trying to find out what's behind it. My vote was not crap vote, fine, not a great one but still not crap and how could have scorp know if it's crap or not without asking? Also, my vote on mykonian was not OMGUS. Voting for the person voting for you =/= OMGUS.

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

Just saw this. Refraining from calling you names and moving on. You assume A LOT in my name as to say that I would consider the mod a complete moron. Don't insult people in my name and don't use crap like this to shove in my face. Also, outguessing the mod to push arguments is something I've just recently seen done by scum. You do not know what PR's are in this game on both sides of the fence => you cannot know what would be balanced and what would not based on just one known game mechanic.

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

GAH! This is just you twisting events into looking suspicious. What happened is: You said something, I disagreed and brought arguments, you brought some more arguments, I saw your point and realized that I was wrong and backed off.

You are saying that I had an argument against you, some people told me I am wrong so I just dropped it to avoid pressure which is not what happened.

@Scorp: "Oh really? If RVS votes aren't meant for discussion through pressuring, what are they meant for?" I said that your vote was obviously not to add pressure. What did you understand? Also, do you think I am scum? If yes, why?

@Antihero: I asked you something here. Would you mind elaborating? Or is it just easy to jump on the biggest wagon while bringing no contribution?

Jelly Jiggler is just giving me an eye bleed. Don't see any scummy intent though.

@RC:

That is, he's a more difficult lynch than, say, Antihero or dana, which seem like they may roll over more

easily

Why exactly would you try and figure out who is

EASIER

to lynch? And then you vote for ... dana? God...

lol@the scorp unvote on me. didn't even see it ... gah, I need to pay more attention.

doesn't make Stef look better, does it?

This looks to me like you're happy your theory got support. Too bad it's from one of the least helpful players in the game.

Also your point number 1 is pure unadulterated bullshit and your attempt to use it to support your vote was scumtastic.

No. It has been discussed over and over again that the typical 12P game is biased towards scum with an average of 66% chance of scum to win. A general accepted suggestion is to add an additional player to the mini setups to help balance the game. While reviewers do balance the game further, the norm is still the typical 12p game which is inheritedly biased. Also, I said most. Anyway, this has something to do with the MAFIA game construct, not "Everyone's a critic" mafia and mafia balancing theory is not going to help.

Also I'm a damn HE not a SHE.

------------------
Preview edit: grr...

HC: It's the first time I'm in a game which emerges so quickly out of RVS. Just seems.. blunt and not particularly more effective than the old fashioned way.

RC: So yes, you voted for dana because it was convenient. Basically you were full of it and acted like you knew something you don't just for the sake of posting.

Also, Dana's argument that not posting when everybody else does is a good point, how do you see it as too defensive?

Also, how can antihero QUOTE my reason and people still not see it?

Before I unvote though, Scorp, something jack noticed does strike me as a lil bit odd. I know that

I (...) voted you to add some pressure

, however, you seem to be fine parking your vote on me without me giving any reasons and adding pressure is obviously not it. Why not ask if I don't give any reasons? Would it be because it gives you an excuse to park your vote?

----------------------------

Overall mykonian comes off as scummy due to the fact that he appears to have been lying. However, most people apparently missed my post so I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt. I still can't see any town reasons to make up evidence like the

What happened is: You said something, I disagreed and brought arguments, you brought some more arguments, I saw your point and realized that I was wrong and backed off.

You are saying that I had an argument against you, some people told me I am wrong so I just dropped it to avoid pressure which is not what happened.

but I guess I'm gonna give it a little bit more time.

Jack: I get it that you're experimenting but you not putting a vote down on someone else is anti-town for two reasons and you know it. Use your vote.

Vote RC

[Stef]

Are you calling tunneling to be tying yourself to a mental framework or voting for people you suspect? I didn't understand anything passed that. Could you please rephrase in more common English?

[Stef]

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

So more pressure would not get any different reactions? Don't see where you're getting at.

You didn't give your reasons or any indication that you had reasons until several posts after your vote, and after you started to take flak for voting on a prior bandwagon without giving reasoning.

Doesn't matter. The reason was THERE and he posted afterwards and completely ignored it.

An FoS is a shitty way to apply pressure. If you want pressure, you vote.

And if you want to vote someone for being scummy and pressure another you vote for the scummy one and fos the one you want to pressure. How is it shitty?

The last sentence of your paragraph is comical in light of the first sentence of your paragraph. What was he supposed to defend himself against? You didn't give him anything to defend. Maybe you had a reason to vote him, but you sure didn't act like it, and XScorpion reacted accordingly. That's not OMGUS and you know it.

... If I were in his shoes I would have asked. He didn't. He just voted back. This is just a case of you say, I say, it's not going anywhere.

[Stef]

That's very much out of context. mykonian claimed that XScorp was an easy lynch. I disputed that and contrasted it with Antihero or dana, both of whom I thought would be more fitting of mykonian's description.

you were speaking out your behind when you said the above then considering you said afterwards that

No, actually I don't have meta on either dana or Antihero, so I'm only making gross generalizations about them.

So which is it? You disputed and contrasted mykonian by thinking that antihero and dana would be more fitting? Or you were just making a gross generalization regarding these two with no meta behind it?

Additionally, I don't know how you can make the claim that I was posting for the sake of posting.

Then what is the above? Making a gross generalization about two players based on nothing to make a point against another player to defend said player while this being half your post. You're right, it may not be just posting for the sake of posting. Too early for partner speculation though.

[quote="RC"This had nothing to do with my vote whatsoever. Are you proposing I should ignore dana because I think he's an easier person to lynch than the rest of the player list? If not, I don't see where you're coming from. [/quote]
Hmm.. dana posted some now. Do you still think dana is scum? Why?

[Stef]

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

So more pressure would not get any different reactions? Don't see where you're getting at.

Jack had unvoted, putting XScorpion at two votes. Your "pressure" vote put XScorpion back up to three, so you didn't really add more pressure at all, did you? What reactions were you hoping to get? What made THIS "XScorpion has three votes" more pressure-filled than the last "XScorpion has three votes"?

Ehm. Didn't realize he was at 3 votes, down at two and then I put him back at 3. No, I guess I didn't add

more pressure

.

[Stef]

Your problem regarding my FOS is a personal view. It cannot be argued anymore than my personal view can. In my view I didn't do anything wrong.

You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right.

Nope. He could have asked. I even called him on it. Anyway, don't care enough about this argument to keep pushing it.

That is seriously stretching to maintain a vote on someone.

I agreed that it is unlikely. It still DOES NOT clear anybody. The game does not become pointless with scum being given this ability D1. It becomes a little dodgier to balance. ANY mod outguessing = A STRETCH. You cannot counter me accepting all possibilities with MOD OUTGUESSING.

At the end you're just being silly. You tell me to defend against these points with quotes? You're just saying that my claimed intentions are false (which you and I can neither prove and disprove thus creating a moot point), that you think what I did is horrible, something you absolutely hate, wrong, something you have a problem with but it's all from a POV that has nothing to do with scumhunting. We might as well be having this conversation in GD, it would probably do more good than it is doing now.

[Stef]

Why exactly could I vote for someone who asks why I'm voting for said someone? O_o

So... your saying that my reason of pressuring Scorp was brilliant to not explain my vote? Why would I just want to cast a vote and give no explanation for it? My vote on you was not a mistake. I voted you because I thought you were scummy for trying to false-confirm a partner D2. It can still be interpreted as such as there is no way, beyond any doubt, to know this game's setup. I unvoted then just because your reasoning was plausible. My second vote on you was also valid and not an OMGUS. Lying & misreping are clear scumtells. OMGUS means to vote for someone

primarily

because that person is voting for you. This is not the case. When we're both very aware of what OMGUS means and still call my vote two different things it is a matter of personal view or intent of manipulation.

What good have I actually done this game? More than half the players in the game.

[Stef]

Jelly jiggler, you've swam through 7 pages of heavy content without commenting anything about it. All you've posted is a self-vote in the rvs, a fallacy claiming that I was rolefishing and ideas about D4. Time to give some feedback about the game, don't you think?

Who do you suspect right now? Why?

[Stef]

Your lie was that I never explained my vote for scorp. You pushed that lie a lot.

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is a misrep - I clearly suggested you were scummy for trying to mislead the town into confirming scum. Jack called on your misrep as well.

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

This is a misrep - I never assumed the mod to be anything but fair. I make the correct assumption that we do not know the setup of the game and that it is not impossible for Mafia to start with the vig-kill. You assume that if this was the case than the mod would be a complete moron, not me.

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

This is a misrep - you suggest that I backed off because people pressured me to. I did no such thing. I backed off because I saw that I might be wrong.

Basically you twist what I'm saying to fit your case, ignoring my intent.

This is why it was NOT damn OMGUS.

Not sure if this will bring us anything but..

@Mod: was the Vig role assigned D1 randomly only to the town player pool or the entire player pool?

[Stef]

If scum has the vig now miko could have been actually planning to confirm a buddy all along.

This is the sort of thing the mod would have specified if not assigned randomly to the entire pool of players. Also, see? asking things is better than assuming things. Always.

[Stef]

Also, it's extremely easy to call a misrep a misunderstanding. The difference only stands in your intention on which we can just speculate.

[Stef]

That was an actual misunderstanding I apparently shared with mykonian. We were both under the impression you voted for me after I voted for you. I didn't say you should explain what I'm thinking. I'm saying you should have asked for my reasons. Asking a question is the opposite of explaining something. How exactly did you mix the two? Again with the "no reason"? Really?

Why aren't you voting for mykonian for "lying" about the same thing?

Also, decide, it's either a policy lynch vote or you voting for me being scummy. Good job at failing.

[Stef]

Hm... why not participate as well, jack?

[Stef]

This is an obvious trap. Here's how the scum does it: You vote for someone and don't give a reason, opting instead to come up with it later if pressured. Then, if the townie you're voting for doesn't ask for those reasons, you go gung-ho saying "HAHA YOU MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ASK WHY I WAS VOTING YOU." Nice try bro.

My vote was never on you because you didn't ask why I was voting for you. How would that ever be a reason for voting for someone? I voted for you for keeping your vote on me after RVS for not giving any reasons while not even caring what those reasons were. There was nothing scummy about you ignoring my vote on you. There is something scummy on you basically voting me back for me voting for you and not asking anything.

Because mykonian didn't decide to base a vote on me by calling my vote OMGUS.

Your vote was not OMGUS when it was cast. It became OMGUS when you left it on me for OMGUS reasons.

Lynch all liars is a great policy. I use it all the time.

You didn't answer my question. Policy lynching =/= lynching scummy players.

[Stef]

You found the answer for yourself. If it isn't good enough for you I can't say I really care.

[Stef]

I agree with DP that RC's posting lately has greatly improved. I see no reason for my vote to stay where it is at the moment.

Unvote

I was pretty convinced jack is town and I still believe it but I may just be biased by my last game with him where he was town and played with a similar attitude. His meta gives me a pretty annoying blank on the scum-read which is coming as very similar to what I've seen him play as town. His play this game, however, despite my town read on him, has been rather anti-town. I haven't been pushing it because I still expect him to explain more closer towards the deadline but his self-vote which he still keeps, the constant lack of explaining, the lack of self-offered information... it's just unsettling.

So again – why bring up a theoretical point?

Mykonian was arguing balancing theory based on insufficient knowledge regarding the game setup. I was trying to explain that mod wifom is useless and it should never constitute the basis for a strategy. I honestly can't find the discussion regarding the imbalance of 12p minis considering the discussion was taking place at least a year ago as far as I remember and it's probably dug deep somewhere through the archives. However, it is now being attempted to introduce an additional player to minis and make them 13p instead of 12p to fix the said balancing issue in this topic.

Regarding the OMGUS, what is the difference between voting in RVS (no value for vote) and then keeping it for OMGUS reasons and voting for OMGUS reasons? I actually want to get to a conclusion on this because it's beginning to be frustrating.

This is it for now. If I missed questions please let me know.

Vote imaginality

You have offered close to no content. It's time you do so.

[Stef]

I am back and I'm in the process of rereading but the posting will come when I get back home.

[Stef]

This was unexpected.

Alright, first:

Unvote imaginality

- I'd like to add to this. The argument that pressure is better added by prods than votes is a weak one imho. Prods can make people post. Votes make people post content.

I really don't understand why Dana would push for my lynch when claiming constantly that RC is the scummiest one. And voting for possible scum connections D1 and nothing else is horrible.

Vote Dana

I've only had the chance to read a few people in ISO and get a general feel of the game. More detailed post when I get back to town.

[Stef]

Why are you quoting out of context? It's obvious from the entire post you quoted that I voted for him because he was voting for RC (i.e. saw that he was scummy just like I did) then unvoted seemingly because no one immediately joined the wagon (although he would never admit it) and refused to answer my question to him about RC's posting.
I have played with DP before, so it's a mix of meta and gut.

So you voted for me because I got off the wagon when it got no support but you preferred to unvote him and voted for me because the RC wagon wasn't getting enough support?

I am not seeing the case dana is presenting against RC. Still my best bet for today.


DP is conveniently laying low.

DP

, what is your opinion on Dana's RC case?

Mod: prod Antihero please

[Stef]

I agree with DP that the scumteam presented by scorp is highly unlikely. However, I find DP severely lacking in posts and answers to questions and explanations for votes.

unvote, Vote DP

[Stef]

Posting now because I've been prodded. I got no idea what jack's idea was... meh.

[Stef]

Posting today.

[Stef]

Prod a little harder? lol

MoI is right, I have done nothing today. However, my... looping out of the pressure is a null point because I moved to another country and my activity levels went down site-wide and are still not back up since I do have days in which I cannot post. Unfortunately all my games are suffering because of this but I am doing my best.

I see retarded points like "his inability to scum-hunt". If I were actually playing this game actively THEN it would have been POSSIBLE for me to be unable to scumhunt. However, this is not the case. Mykonian and Antihero are building up the shit pile based on fallacies. Out of these two there is at least one scum. And to be honest I'm betting it's antihero. He's just been coasting my wagon ever since D1. Look at Antihero's ISO, 99% posts are about me exclusively. Not that he is actually adding anything to my case, not actually tunneling, just conveniently ignoring the rest of the game while on a wagon with decent support.

His whole play wreeks of opportunism and staying out of trouble.

After reading mykonian in ISO he is either town or very clever scum.

RC: We're close to losing this game and you're suggesting the town should kill the inactives?

My money goes on Antihero so...

Vote Antihero

If there is anything specific you want me to answer please post/repost it and I will do my best to do so later on today.

[Stef]

Formally asking for replacement, uni starting and being in a new country is too much for me right now with my current internet commitments and clearly this is the only place I can cut back. Sorry for the inconvenience to both the mod and the players

~Replacement request noted.