Open 244: Carbon-14 (Game Over, Werewolves win!)

[[sic]]

/confirm

[[sic]]

Vote: [sic]

Nobody likes brackets.

Lies, I like brackets.

Vote: Scott Brosius

[[sic]]

And you're helping scums with your vote.

FoS: RayFrost

[[sic]]

Unvote, Vote: RayFrost

Stealth lynch-1 is not cool.

[[sic]]

You guys fail at counter-wagons.

[[sic]]

The wagon on the guy who did something scummy on the first wagon.

[[sic]]

The fail is giving a guy a pass after he puts someone at 3 votes on page 1. Actually, it was only you that did that.

FoS: Robocopter87

[[sic]]

Yeah, not like we'd want to put pressure on someone and try to get past random votes. Good thinking, town.

[[sic]]

Pretty sure the responsibilty for checking the vote count lies with the voter. That last part isn't even a sentence.

[[sic]]

Um, I don't need one? L-2 isn't within range for a hammer. I just skimmed to make sure nobody had 2 votes already, which is what Scott should have done.

[[sic]]

EBWOP: what *RayFrost* should have done.

[[sic]]

Meh. My problem is with people letting RayFrost off the hook, not with his vote. Any reason you didn't notice the L-1 *after* the votecount?

Unvote

[[sic]]

I know you did, that's why I asked. Would've thought it was smart to make sure everyone knew it was L-1, to stop "accidental" hammers.

[[sic]]

vote: [sic]

You backed down over that vote way too easily, as soon as the pressure started up from Robo you just dropped it.

A pressure vote's kinda useless when you've all sworn off the wagon. Not like I've stopped talking about it.

What Copper said re: "accidental" hammers. Just takes one more person doing what Ray did (or scum faking it).

Ray's dropped all his games, don't think it means anything.

[[sic]]

Talk of claiming is premature, Scott's vote is still random. Glad you called out L-1 this time, though.

You think Liam's vote had good reasoning behind it? What about Copper's "strong town" read on me?

[[sic]]

Colour me shocked, Mister Opportunistic.

I ask about Copper because he's the only one who seems to have actually read and understood my posts.

[[sic]]

Is that a scumtell?

[[sic]]

That's the worst post yet.

Vote: CallMeLiam

I'd still ike Scott to answer the question.

[[sic]]

Will make a bigger post later to try and get past some of the misrepping here. Hold your breath.

[[sic]]

Not just talking about you, sport.

[[sic]]

Above was @ Me=Weird.

@Scott: Pretty sure what I was doing was asking someone to justify their vote. Try thinking more than one step ahead.

[[sic]]

Gonna quote M=W and respond, since he covers most of the stuff I wanted to talk about.

Hi.
Here's a case on [sic].
OMGUS. Of a random vote. A bit nervous there, eh, scum?
More OMGUS, of something obviously not serious. And that could also be classified as AtE, "and you're helping scum with your vote". Especially since the vote in question wasn't even on him.

Both massive reaches. First post is random vote, for jokey reason. Second post is pointing out that Scott called me scum but is voting for the same guy as me. I really don't get the AtE thing.

This is the smallest non-marathon-dethy I've been in. I wouldn't have noticed it was L-1 either. Which is why there are mods, I suppose.
"Counter-wagon" is you. You fail. Okay. Oh. You mean fail at

making

counter wagons. So some-one slipped up and forgot there's 7 people. blah blah.
Yeah, lets put pressure on someone who isn't usually in small games instead of the person who does OMGUS, AtE, and tunneling on a null-tell. Wait, it isn't opposite day, is it?

Pressure gets the game going. Based on your logic, I should have voted myself? Crappy last part covered above.

Tries to subtly discredit robo by pointing out the irrelevant grammar fail.

I truly didn't understand what he was saying. Still don't, since he never addressed it.

Sure it is. Only 1 vote difference.

Small game, one vote is a big difference.

Okay, so… you're okay with ray's vote, but think he should be punished for it? In what alternate reality does this make sense?

Didn't want to lynch him, but it was worth a vote. Don't recall wanting to "punish" him, wagons aren't always about the wagonee.

So you think only you and robo read the votecount? Do you really think everyone else doesn't care?

Based on their posting, apparently not.

If you still think it's scummy, and are talking about it, why aren't you voting? Oh yeah, post 57. Where you… just look up a couple lines in this case.

Clarify? Don't know what "it" is in this sentence.

No need to claim. It's not like you're at L-1 or anything. It's not like I'd be willing to hammer.[/sarcasm]
Oh yes, he's the only one who "Seems to have read and understood my posts" because he's the only one who seems to think you're town.
Yes, it's a scum-tell. You're like, "Oh, somebody thinks I'm town! Everyone, that means I'm town. There, we have to confirmed town, me and him." Just because someone thinks you're town doesn't mean we all should. We have a right to our own opinions.

Yeah, no misreps there. You're right, I shouldn't challenge anyone's opinions in a game of mafia. My bad.[/sarcasm]

Why is it any worse than yours? Why is it bad at all? This is almost OMGUS.

1. He white-knighted for Scott.
2. His answer was evasive.
3. He's ok with Scott voting me for something he (Liam) won't commit to being a scumtell.

So basically, he OMGUS's, (to a lesser extent,) AtE's, tunnels on accidental L-1 with 7 people, which he doesn't have a problem with but feels should be punished.

See above. On "tunneling": I count 3 posts I made about Ray (29, 40, 48), the rest were answers to direct questions. Almost all of those questions came from Robo. And then he accuses me of tunneling. Hmmm.

[sic], please claim. I'm willing to hammer.

Too early to claim, not enough info out. You're the only one who's actually made a case, and you're not even on the wagon.

Copper, where do you get your town read on him from? How does this post influence it?

Hypocrisy FTW. He's entitled to his opinion, remember?

Robo, what do you think of [sic]'s recent posts, especially the one above this?
Scott, a2rudeboy, please contribute more.

QFT on the last part. Then again, why would you want to hammer when you can see that some people are getting a pass?

[[sic]]

Guess I cleared the room.

In case it wasn't clear, I want responses to the above from everyone who's voting me (plus M=W).

[[sic]]

Sorry, been rocking out in the marathon thread.

Robo, what do you think of [sic]'s recent posts, especially the one above this?

Supposing your meaning this one,

That's the worst post yet.

Vote: CallMeLiam

I'd still ike Scott to answer the question.

Its stupid. But a noobtell. Its a null for me.

These bs non-answers are killing the town. Why do you think that? Did you read my 3 points in in post 87?

Robo isn't the worst, either. Liam and Scott are both skating by with almost zero content. a2 hasn't posted in 2 days.

I think M=W is smart enough not to hammer after 4 pages of short posts and without a claim, but just in case: Hammering me at this point would be a VERY BAD MOVE.

[[sic]]

Hi.
Here's a case on [sic].
OMGUS. Of a random vote. A bit nervous there, eh, scum?
More OMGUS, of something obviously not serious. And that could also be classified as AtE, "and you're helping scum with your vote". Especially since the vote in question wasn't even on him.

Both massive reaches. First post is random vote, for jokey reason. Second post is pointing out that Scott called me scum but is voting for the same guy as me. I really don't get the AtE thing.

First post is voting him for voting you because of brackets. OMGUS. The AtE is where you're almost saying "I'm town so you're helping scum with the vote. You should unvote because I'm town and you're helping scum".

Is a random vote OMGUS a scumtell? Why?

Got the names mixed up in the second part, I was talking to Ray (i.e. the guy I FoSed in that post). Ray voted Scott, then says a couple posts later that a2rudeboy and me are the scum. I'm voting for Scott as well at that point. So he is voting for the same person as someone he just called scum (i.e. me). Hence, helping scum with his vote. No idea where AtE comes into that, I was pointing out a contradiction.

I'll get to the rest of your post later.

[[sic]]

QFT on the last part. Then again, why would you want to hammer when you can see that some people are getting a pass?

I think M=W is smart enough not to hammer after 4 pages of short posts and without a claim, but just in case: Hammering me at this point would be a VERY BAD MOVE.

You are really squirming at L-1

Do you think that a lynch now would be good for the town?

[[sic]]

This is the smallest non-marathon-dethy I've been in. I wouldn't have noticed it was L-1 either. Which is why there are mods, I suppose.
"Counter-wagon" is you. You fail. Okay. Oh. You mean fail at making counter wagons. So some-one slipped up and forgot there's 7 people. blah blah.
Yeah, lets put pressure on someone who isn't usually in small games instead of the person who does OMGUS, AtE, and tunneling on a null-tell. Wait, it isn't opposite day, is it?

Pressure gets the game going. Based on your logic, I should have voted myself? Crappy last part covered above.

No. You should find someone to pressure other than someone who just miscounted, or at least not because of miscounting.

The vote was partially to test whether it was a miscount or a gambit. Like I said before, the wagon isn't just about the wagonee.

Tries to subtly discredit robo by pointing out the irrelevant grammar fail.

I truly didn't understand what he was saying. Still don't, since he never addressed it.

So why didn't you ask him in that long string of posts that you and him made directly after? Is it because you're making this up as you go?

I figured it would become obvious as we kept talking, but it hasn't. I was trying to get him to give a case by questioning him in 69, but he's ignored that pretty neatly. What do you think that sentence meant, btw?

Sure it is. Only 1 vote difference.

Small game, one vote is a big difference.

And what if people believed you, and two of them piled on?

Then those people would be idiots? If there's a big burden on the second voter, then what about the first voter? Only one vote difference. Go look at one of the old 7 player newbie games and see how much people care about second votes in those.

<snip>, moved to the end*

So you think only you and robo read the votecount? Do you really think everyone else doesn't care?

Based on their posting, apparently not.

What?

Maybe I didn't understand your question. Robo and I seem to be the only ones that notice when someone's at L-1, but apparently that's not what you were asking?

If you still think it's scummy, and are talking about it, why aren't you voting? Oh yeah, post 57. Where you… just look up a couple lines in this case.

Clarify? Don't know what "it" is in this sentence.

"it" is the whole rayfrost going to L-1 thing.

Still doesn't make sense. Post 57 was an unvote, not a vote.

No need to claim. It's not like you're at L-1 or anything. It's not like I'd be willing to hammer.[/sarcasm]
Oh yes, he's the only one who "Seems to have read and understood my posts" because he's the only one who seems to think you're town.
Yes, it's a scum-tell. You're like, "Oh, somebody thinks I'm town! Everyone, that means I'm town. There, we have to confirmed town, me and him." Just because someone thinks you're town doesn't mean we all should. We have a right to our own opinions.

Yeah, no misreps there. You're right, I shouldn't challenge anyone's opinions in a game of mafia. My bad.[/sarcasm]

If I really did misrep you, why aren't you saying where?

Because it's the whole thing. I ask someone who's made no case to justify their vote versus someone else's town read, and by your logic I'm trying to self-confirm myself and Copper? Major confirmation bias at work here.

Why is it any worse than yours? Why is it bad at all? This is almost OMGUS.

1. He white-knighted for Scott.
2. His answer was evasive.
3. He's ok with Scott voting me for something he (Liam) won't commit to being a scumtell.

1. You did not imply at all that the question was only for scott.

I

thought it was a question for everyone.
2. True, but I'm not him, I can't explain it.
3. He only said it wasn't a town-tell, and the tone of his post makes me think he thought it to be a scum-tell.

It was right after Scott's post, and it was a question about part of his case. Didn't think I needed to signpost it. I know page breaks are confusing, but c'mon. And if he thought it was a scumtell then why didn't he just say "yes" instead of giving a weasely non-answer?

So basically, he OMGUS's, (to a lesser extent,) AtE's, tunnels on accidental L-1 with 7 people, which he doesn't have a problem with but feels should be punished.

See above. On "tunneling": I count 3 posts I made about Ray (29, 40, 48), the rest were answers to direct questions. Almost all of those questions came from Robo. And then he accuses me of tunneling. Hmmm.

I'll drop the tunneling. Looking back, it't the tone of your posts that seem tunnel-y.

Progress!

[sic], please claim. I'm willing to hammer.

Too early to claim, not enough info out. You're the only one who's actually made a case, and you're not even on the wagon.

So you want me to hammer you so I'm on the bandwagon, and then you'll claim? It'll be a bit late then. I think hammer, anyway. I would know if the mod had granted my request for a votecount.

Take off the scum-coloured glasses and actually read what I said. I want more info from the 3 people who

are

on the wagon. This is bordering on intentionally dense.

Copper, where do you get your town read on him from? How does this post influence it?

Hypocrisy FTW. He's entitled to his opinion, remember?

And that means I can't ask him about it?

By your standards, apparently not. Says up there that it's scummy when I try to change other people's minds.

*Saved for the end because it's probably the most important point.

Okay, so… you're okay with ray's vote, but think he should be punished for it? In what alternate reality does this make sense?

Didn't want to lynch him, but it was worth a vote. Don't recall wanting to "punish" him, wagons aren't always about the wagonee.

You wanted people to not let him off the hook. You said "Meh. My problem is with people letting RayFrost off the hook, not with his vote." That implies you don't care about the vote, yet are voting for him anyway.

Once and for all, reasons for the RayFrost vote:

1. Putting someone at L-1 so early without calling it can lead to quicklynches and is anti-town. A vote sends the message that the town won't tolerate it. People will check votecounts in future because they don't want to make the same mistake. I say this in post 29, with the vote.
2. There is a possibility that the L-1 vote wasn't an accident. Putting pressure on RayFrost will help to find out one way or the other. I'm still trying to swing it this way in post 42 by calling Ray scummy, then give up in 48 when it's clear nobody else is interested.
3. Wagons also put pressure on other players to respond. Wagons are the best way to get day 1 info on everyone. I'm trying this in 44, giving up again in 48. The first couple of "meh" reactions let everyone off the hook, not just Ray.

So yes I cared about the vote, and no I wasn't trying to "punish" him (beyond making sure he didn't do it again). I stopped caring about the vote after 48, because it wasn't going anywhere. All of this is in the thread if you read it without the preconceived notion that I'm scum.

Speaking of which, there's a lot of "you did this because you're scum" in your case (and others). I'd prefer to see more "you're scum because you did this".

[[sic]]

Another threateningly worded non-answer. I'm shocked.

As for lynching me right nao(!), let's review:

- You've made 7 game-relevant posts after the RVS, all 2 lines or less.
- Liam's made 4 game-relevant posts, also all 2 lines or less.
- a2 has made 2 game-relevant posts.
- Copper has made 2 game-relevant posts.

I wouldn't want to be alive for day 2 of that game, regardless of who got lynched.

Might claim soon. Losing hope that some people are able to actually help themselves/the town out.

[[sic]]

I find people end up not reading longer posts anyway.

Well clearly

you

don't.

I'd try explaining why long days are good for the town, but it'll be more than 2 lines so you won't read it.

[[sic]]

Busy weekend, will post in a few hours. That deadline seems kinda short notice, guess that's how these rules work.

[[sic]]

Lappy is back up, I got good access now. Nothing new to say.

Quick thought as I'm reading: 3 days from deadline, you're not currently voting. All you've talked about so far is me voting Ray. And you have

nothing

new to say?

[[sic]]

Trying to work out who I want lynched:

Liam hasn't added anything since I voted. Inactivity is site-wide, so he's not avoiding us in particular. Still very suspicious of his shifty answer to my scumtell question, and I don't like his wagonny vote either. Not much else to go on, but all signs are negative.

I thought Me=Weird was stretching on his case against me, but I was getting overall "townie trying to move the game" vibes at first. Not a fan of the continued OTT rhetoric (e.g. "[sic] went crazy over ray's L-1"). Also don't like that a2 who votes him and is suddenly my scumbuddy. Lots of WIFOM when looking at him, worried I might be falling into reverse OMGUS.

I could buy a2's vote as pro-town, I would have had to claim if he'd said he was suspicious of me at that point. Don't think I'm the guy scum will buddy up to in this game.

Copper's high on quality and low on quantity. Need more of the latter.

Robo's unvote when I was fixing to claim gives him townie points. As someone said, scum want claims. Hopefully there's more thinking going on than I've seen in the thread.

Ninja'd. I'll come back to this.

Scott kinda looked like he got stuck on my wagon after Liam's vote. Apparently we don't have the same idea of how mafia works. On the "possible scum" list, probably not an option for today though.

Still thinking about my vote, prefer Liam for scumminess and for strategy. Won't actively oppose M=W wagon, but he's plan B or C for me atm.

Additional thought, since I don't see anyone mentioning this: a townie being modkilled for inactivity would be VERY BAD because it means we lose on the first mislynch. Unless the day ends with the modkill, I guess. If you're pro-town then you damn well need to post.

[[sic]]

Listen, [sic], you post constantly, but your not helping, instead of just responding why not post a case on someone?

Sorry, what? Have you read your own iso? And you're calling

me

unhelpful? If you've really read all of my posts then why haven't you responded to any of the content, especially the stuff that relates to you?

Also, pretty sure I posted a case on Liam. Him posting zilch since then has limited my follow-up. You didn't comment on that either, btw.

^^^Scummiest thing all game. Because someone unvoted you they get townie points? Wrong. I unvoted because my view was changing but now it I am leaning heavy scum on you.

Possible scum reasons for unvoting me at that point? Why fake a change of heart on a guy who was about to claim? Especially when it would kill the wagon. Where's the cost/benefit in that for scum?

[[sic]]

My Lappy was down, I didn't want to be on a wagon of possible claimed PR if thats what you claimed while I was unavailable. And my view was changing due to minor stuff.

This is not an answer to any of the questions I asked. Read it again.

Why do I have to comment on your case on Liam? You want me to comment? here, Your case sucks, Liam is town.

Based on what?

[[sic]]

To make that super-clear: Liam is town based on what?

[[sic]]

Decent reasons from your perspective, I guess. Don't think he's posted enough to be categorically pro-town, though. You disagreeing with my scumtell doesn't mean he's obvtown.

How about my question about the "scummiest thing all game"?

[[sic]]

Bah, time's a-wasting. Annoyed with the crappy wagon, but I need to claim.

I'm the Seer.

zomgunvote, etc.

[[sic]]

Copper really took [sic]'s side after a claim.

So your theory is that Copper's my buddy?

Won't comment on the breadcrumbing until Robo's answered Copper's question.

[[sic]]

ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE.

Argh.

[[sic]]

Bah sorry reading comprehension fail. Brb.

[[sic]]

Voting me is useless right now. Believe me or not, nobody's counterclaimed and you're not going to get me lynched unless that happens. Your 50/50 comment makes me think you haven't thought through the strategy for this game. If I'm useful then I'm probably dead tonight.

On that point, is there agreement amongst the town that any counterclaim has to be made today? Like Scott said, the tradeoff is worth it since I'd be lynched over pretty much anyone else. Would like to avoid any WIFOM from counterclaims on day 2 (if I live).

@Robo: If you think Copper's my buddy then the smart play would be to lynch him.

1. There's a chance you might be able to get enough votes on him (unlike me).
2. Him buddying up to a townie he saw breadcrumbing a PR is also a plausible scenario for Copperscum. If he's buddying like you say, there's no scenario where I'm scum and he's town. So he's the sure lynch, not me.

For the record, I didn't deliberately breadcrumb. I wasn't careful about hiding that I was a PR, though, so I could see someone who was paying attention (e.g. Copper) picking up on that. I was posting on the assumption that I wasn't going to get lynched, I'm sure there were signs.

Btw, if you want to know what the quoted statement was about, look at the sentence before it. Then look at post 103. Good to see the ol' AtE craptell popping up again, though.

[[sic]]

If Liam hasn't posted in the next 24 hours then we need to either vote for a deadline extension or lynch him.

[[sic]]

Scenario 1: I am scum and Copper is my scumbuddy, trying to defend me. Plausible.
Scenario 2: I am town and Copper is scum trying to be my buddy so I won't vote or investigate him. Plausible.
Scenario 3: I am scum and Copper is town with a bad read. This isn't buddying, and doesn't match your observation.

Note the common element between 1 and 2.

You seem totally unable to come to terms with the idea that I might not be scum. Either you're totally tunnelled on me or you're setting yourself up to counterclaim me later.

[[sic]]

I said in 145 that I didn't breadcrumb. I've never claimed to have breadcrumbed. Breadcrumbs don't even prove anything, since mafia/werewolves can do them just as easily as the seer/cop.

Out of interest, how would you expect a Seer to play?

[[sic]]

Any Cop or Seer plays Town enough to not get lynched but scummy enough to not get night killed. Usually stays out of the way and lets other people be in line of view so they aren't as big of a target. Thats how you should play most basic PR's.

Isn't that pretty much how scum would want to play as well? All that proves is that I'm bad at my role, whether scum or town.

[[sic]]

That should avoid modkill a for Liam.

Unvote

since that wagon won't happen. Robo's recent posting has killed my brief pro-town view of him. Share others' concerns of buddying from Copper. Going to do some reading and come back with a vote.

[[sic]]

Had thought that Copper originally called me town before L-1, but I see it was right after. Still, not sure he realised at the time (I didn't). This was definitely before any possible PR hints, deliberate or not. His apology post-claim was a bit much, I thought, but belief of the claim is consistent with his behaviour since early on. Not 110% sold just because he defended me, but I'm not going to vote him today.

I don't really get why Robo (or anyone) was apparently surprised by Copper "taking my side" after the claim. He's been "on my side" for the entire game.

Sorry for the split posts, kind of busy so I'm throwing stuff down as I have time. 42ish hours to deadline if I'm counting right?

[[sic]]

[sic] continues to say things like,

@Robo: If you think Copper's my buddy then the smart play would be to lynch him.

Voting me is useless right now.

Are these still scummy now that they've come true?

Robo seems completely unable to concede a point on anything. Every time I feel like I've made a strong argument, he just ignores it (last para of 126, most of 145, 149, first para of 151, 154, etc). Kind of felt like he got caught without a second option when I claimed, and has been playing reactively since then.

I tink that's three votes? Claim time, methinks.

[[sic]]

I'll hammer you at or near deadline if you don't claim. Can't see the wagon going away on its own before then.

Btw, for those who can't figure out what an AtE looks like:

Can't believe I'm going to be lynched.

[[sic]]

Not sure you get what I'm saying about "breadcrumbs":

For the record, I didn't deliberately breadcrumb. I wasn't careful about hiding that I was a PR, though, so I could see someone who was paying attention (e.g. Copper) picking up on that. I was posting on the assumption that I wasn't going to get lynched, I'm sure there were signs.

In other words, I wasn't thinking "I'll write this so they can see I'm a PR", but I also wasn't thinking "If I write this will they figure out that I'm a PR?"

My definition of breadcrumb is leaving a hint that I want to point back to later. I didn't do that, but I was definitely playing like someone who wanted to claim, and expected to live afterwards. So I can see how you'd figure it out, but the "breadcrumbs" were incidental rather than deliberate. Kind of splitting hairs, I guess.

[[sic]]

Claim please, Robo.

Especially given that you said he left breadcrumbs, and then he said he didn't.

[[sic]]

If you're town then being lynched is more anti-town than claiming. Do you think that anyone's going to unvote without a claim?

[[sic]]

Vanilla Townie, then.

And I said

more

anti-town.

[[sic]]

My claim will be worthless and of no use. It will just be ignored.

This does not suggest that you're going to claim Cop, and I know you're not the Seer. So VT seems like a pretty logical conclusion.

If your next post doesn't include a roleclaim then I'll hammer.

[[sic]]

If your town you'll die tonight.

Duh? Though I probly won't die if the scum are mafia because they'll be looking for the cop. Unless you're the cop and you're being petty and vindictive (and breaking rule 14 to boot).

Vote: Robocopter87

[[sic]]

Hardcore lurking from a2 and Liam is definitely hurting us big time. Been saying that all day.

Other than that, I have no regrets.

[[sic]]

Bah. Should've just claimed Robo, I would have voted for an extension if you had. All the screwing around made me think you wanted someone to unvote so you could counterclaim me without being fasthammered.

Didn't really expect buddying with Copper to keep me alive, worth a shot I guess. That apology was way OTT, I had no suspicion of him before that.

Kind of funny that Ray turned out to be scum after all.

GG scums, definitely had it over the town in this one.