Mini 1033 - Paradise Mafia: Over

[Dekes]

I think I'ma dive right in.

Vote: cloudocean

because of the terrific wordplay and because I haven't been to the ocean in ages :-/

[Dekes]

More than one page of content and Shotty hasn't posted yet? Iz shotty sik? (Oh no, he didn't!)

On more serious note. I fail to see where the suspicion on MS and redtail is coming from. If I had to vote for someone right now it'd be redtail for possibly playing the naïve card early on. But eh, not really vote-worthy.

I'm much rather interested in why Friend suggested a quicklynch based on a page 1 (RVS-)reaction. What's up with that?

/offtopic
coitantly should totally go to urbandictionary.com
PEDIT: Oh, so it had nothing to do with coitus after all...

[Dekes]

Care to enlighten me and/or answer my question?

[Dekes]

Saying "REDTAIL IS SCUMMIEST BUT I DON'T WANNA VOTE"

Damn, right, I forgot I said that or even hinted at that. After reading my vote again it felt more like I said "We have only one page of content and there was one thing that stood out but it was so minor it didn't merit a vote at all." But now I can see where you're coming from, thanks for the clarification.

[Dekes]

EBWOP: vote = post

[Dekes]

On more serious note. I fail to see where the suspicion on MS and redtail is coming from. If I had to vote for someone right now it'd be redtail for possibly playing the naïve card early on. But eh, not really vote-worthy.

You simultaneously don't understand why people are suspicious of me, yet find me the most suspicious.

What?

And no, your explanation in the previous post doesn't make any sense.

Important word in my post: possibly. I didn't see anything at all so far that would merit a vote (and so I stated). And "most suspicious" (where do you people come up with those phrases after reading my post) in this case would be if I voted you right now it would be based on a weak-ass reason I myself don't believe in (and so I didn't vote).
Trust me. I wagon and I wagon hard when I see reason for it.

@Shotty
Oh man, I was actually right? Sorry to hear that. Get well soon.

@pacman
Stuff happened. You wanna add anything else?

[Dekes]

@Friend
Just because I don't believe in a redtail wagon because the initial reason is crap makes me and redtail buddies? Now you're just grasping at straws.
So, are you aware you put redtail to L-1 and are you still keen on a quicklynch?

@redtail
/Repeat mode on
I stated (several times now) that I think the only thing that stood out from your posts was you playing naïve and clueless on page 1. While others may see it as vote-worthy (to create a bandwagon, for reaction fishing or simply out of honest suspicion) I did not and so I didn't join.

However, your play style hasn't been stellar since. Granted, you've been on the receiving for most of the game so far. But instead of attacking and questioning the (clearly not RVS-) wagon on you, you simply jump on me after Friend attacked me.

Only now that you've been put to L-1 you're questioning your wagon. And even if you didn't want to deflect onto Nexus because there are several people who haven't generated any game related content why did you say Nexus specifically and not something vague like "Other people", "Player X among others"? Feels like a deliberate deflection to me.

I agree with you in one point though. Maybe I'm used to newbie games, but I like my votes as well as others' reasoned comprehensibly.
Elli's vote feels like a gambit to me. And a rather obvious one if that's the case. It figures that Shotty fell for it. But I've read a couple of Shotty's games and his willingness to hammer and his lack of reason is a nulltell for me yet. Which leaves us with LynchMePls who took advantage of the dynamic of the wagon and hopped on without any reason whatsoever.

PEdit: Lol, okay, ninja'd. I was about to vote LynchMePls, but he sort of gave a reason for voting (why not give the reason with your vote already?)

[Dekes]

Finally more people with common sense who read the thread from a neutral perspective instead of tunnelvisioning into every little detail no matter how illogical and far-fetched it might be.
First off, a couple of quotes:

Would make sense, sense this game has so many people I have nthing against a quicklynch. Lots of info

If he dosnt claim and give a good defence in the next 3 posts I'll hammer

anyway

unvote

happening too fast

I still do have that one obvscumread and that one obvtownread but ... bleh, I'll deal with this later.

Why, thank you for keeping your obvscumread to yourself. That surely is beneficial for town's scumhunting.

Translation: I haven't shown any interest in scumhunting/desire to pressure, but I'm not scum because some people have even less of a desire to do so than myself!

I'd like to see quotes where you have produced 'content.'

vote:redtail

I don't see how redtail could not think here it was not about producing content.

With that being said, I'm going back to my original intetion:

Vote: LynchMePls

for
- Hopping onto the wagon at a seemingly inconspicuous moment without any reason
- bringing up that "no contribution" did not play a part in redtail's wagoning when it clearly has and attacking redtail for seemingly deflecting from the real reasoning when in fact redtail is entitled to believe he's being voted for not contributing
- instead of a) staying out of the argument and Friend (which is imo pointless) or b) taking a stance in it simply trying to discredit MS using her meta
-> scum joining in a prominent wagon aiming for a quick easy mislynch based on nothing to leave town with little information on Day 2

Also, I'd like to hear more from Nexus and Buttonmen.
Nexus just popped in when being attacked for no contribution by redtail. But instead of taking matters into her hand she sits back and waits for other people to answer questions that has been asked by others. Wow...talk about not willing to scumhunt.
Buttonmen practically voted for MS and has disappeared since then.

[Dekes]

- bringing up that "no contribution" did not play a part in redtail's wagoning when it clearly has and attacking redtail for seemingly deflecting from the real reasoning when in fact redtail is entitled to believe he's being voted for not contributing

What!? People are allowed to setup strawmen and then knock them down and no one is supposed to call them on it? That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard in my life.

Redtail is the one who brought up the whole "not producing content". He even admits it here:

I genuinely thought that I was being persecuted for lack of content. I found this unfair, and so pointed out other people that I felt had produced even less content.

Also note how he admits that he was pointing out "other people I felt had produced even less content". So, even assuming that the argument was about him not producing content (which it wasn't) his reaction to that perceived case is still scummy. He attempts to deflect the conversation onto others, rather than make the rational argument that we weren't even 48 hours into the game, so saying someone hasn't produced content is pointless.

Your continued defense of redtail is noted. Friend may have been on to something here.

[Dekes]

EBWOP: What the fuck? I swear the post looked fine before I hit Submit...had to log in again first though. Gimme a minute here to re-write.

[Dekes]

EBWOP2: Thank god for cache.

What!? People are allowed to setup strawmen and then knock them down and no one is supposed to call them on it? That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard in my life.

Just sayin' your continued assumption "not producing content" did not play part in the wagoning is wrong. First time somebody said that was not redtail, but cloudocean. And this was the only vote with a clearly defined reason besides Friend's (which was aiming in a similar direction).
Feels more like you're strawmanning here in keeping on using this for your case against redtail.

Redtail is the one who brought up the whole "not producing content". He even admits it here:

Also note how he admits that he was pointing out "other people I felt had produced even less content"..

Already stated by me and I said I didn't like it one bit.

Your continued defense of redtail is noted. Friend may have been on to something here.

Seems like somebody is hurt for being called out on his crappy case. Is there someone else you noted as scummy besides people not voting for redtail.

[Dekes]

DOES NOT COMPUTE. You claim cloudocean says it first, but if you read that post you just linked to, he is quoting redtail saying something about not producing content. Which means redtail brought it up first. Reread the game, it isn't long. I've done it twice now, I know I'm right.

And redtail was referring to Friend's post who was basically saying the same thing ("Refusal of scumhunting" = "refusal of adding content").
Plus, cloudocean used specifically that reason to vote for redtail and yet you still refuse to acknowledge it had absolutely nothing to do with why redtail was being attacked. Reread the thread, it isn't long. Maybe you catch everything the third time.

[Dekes]

First off, guys, I've already mistaken two of you for girls because of your avatars. Would you please man up an get some masculine avat...wait, is that a girl watching the sunset in my avatar?...eh, never mind then.

A lot of bickering going on on the last pages.
I do agree with Elli (and whoever's on board) in that the lurkers' have to be looked into. Though I'd like to differentiate between shotty and cloud here. I've yet to see Shotty intentionally lurking. He could still very well be scum but he's ignored one other of my games and I don't think he'd use lurking as a strategy. Plus, he's unvoted before he left so what's there to gain for lurking scum here, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt unlike cloudocean.
He voted for redtail based solely on the fact, that redtail didn't produce any content (which has been agreed to be a whacky reason 24 hours into the game), then pretty much disappeared. Only popped in twice afterwards for two one-liners.
My guess: Scum observing if the redtail-wagon is going off, then keeping a low profile. Supported by the fact that he kept his vote on redtail and has been active on this forums since his last post in this thread.
I would vote him (again), if he weren't due for a prod. He first needs

mod's

attention and then our attention.

Redtail, now that you're at L-3 (since Shotty unvoted,

mod

apparently has missed this), you can stop defending yourself and might wanna share your suspiciouns with us.

[Dekes]

Sorry for the inactivity, guys. I come off as a total hypocrite with what I will state later in this post but all I can say is I didn't know what to add that hasn't already been said in this MS vs. people pressuring debate with Nexus/Pacman being attacked in the middle.

Just a few thoughts:

- I don't like how MS is trying to prevent anyone from applying pressure. Pressuring is one of the most effective methods for town especially Day 1 to draw out scum slips. Sometimes people have to pick on minimal things to see how people react to it. I know I said I didn't like people pressuring redtail for some triviality, but at that time I was simply worried redtail would really be getting lynched based on virtually nothing.

- I don't like this obvtown death squad (no, it's not, because I'm not in it, I'd rather like not being called obvtown by most people for several reasons). If somehow one or two scum managed to get into this squad then scum would have a major say in who's going to be lynched. Problem with that theory is that apart from LPS (who somewhat redeemed himself since I squabbled with him) I get mostly active, scumhunting town vibes from the people in the squad

- I especially don't like redtail's, cloudocean's and shotty's (semi-)absence. I said it could get hyprocritical now since I didn't post here in the last 48 hours, yet I was active in the forum. But unlike cloudocean and redtail (I'll get to shotty later) I have nothing to gain from lurking.
Cloudocean: His last post is just an anti-prod post. And i didn't like his iso prior to his absence. Comes off like he was trying to lurk his way to redtail's lynch.
Actually I'm referring to Shotty now: Also answering Elli's question here: I've never played with him before. Only read games of him as both town and scum. And what I did get from that is that he has always something to say. I don't see any reason not to believe he's V/LA due to surgery and recovery (he said so in all of his games). And like I said before, if he was scum, why would he unvote before going into lurk modus?
redtail: I especially don't like his absence. He practically disappeared after his wagon died down. He was active on the forums and even posted in another thread in Little Italy. I do not believe he's forgotten about this game. My guess: Now that the pressure has been diverted onto multiple people he's laying low hoping for someone else to slip.

Vote:redtail86

(before you look into my Iso. I never stated I believe redtail is town. Instead I even addressed that I didn't like how he handled the pressure by avoiding questions and diverting the accusations. With this and his deliberate inactivity since his wagon died down, he's getting my vote. I still want to hear from cloudocean more.)

[Dekes]

Hey Dekes, the thing about the whole "scum can slip into the MURDERIN DEATH PACT" statement is that that situation can be dealt with in LyLo -- making a pact of strong town reads is

great

for early-game play. Unless all 3 scum are in it (which is nigh-impossible IMO) that bloc of surviving players can sort out the possible scum in the alliance in the endgame.

But for now, it's a good idea. So just roll with it.

What now?
No, I will not blindly follow the death squad. Just because I get town vibes from you does not mean I will from now on skim all of your posts and obey your every command. I will look into your posts as thouroughly as anyone else's.

And if the death squad does indeed consist of obvious, hard-to-lynch townies, what makes you believe that there will be much left of this group when going into LyLo?

@MS
Well, are two votes on Nexus and pacman high heavens already?

@redtail
Claim, defense, anything at all would be nice. You were on the forums on each of the last three days, so don't pretend you're not reading this.

[Dekes]

Back from V/LA. Dead tired. Catch-up post will be up by no later than 2 p.m. GMT +1 (which is 14 hours from now).

[Dekes]

Alright,

I've got too many suspects right now. I need to narrow it down:

- MS: His vote for redtail was horrible. After defendig redtail for so long he's voting him based on inactivity solely. And puts him at L-1 no less.
Plus, he hasn't answered my question how two votes are putting someone in danger of lynching. I'm still wondering why he was so against applying pressure on Nexus on pacman.

- Pacman: The only thing I don't like is how he's been taking strong stances so far but is lacking in putting down votes.

- Nexus: I think he made the worst post so far on D1. He comes in 40 mins after cloud's also horrible post and questions him on it (which is good and legitimate and whatnot) but has nothing else to offer.

- Cloud: His whole iso is horrible and I like to hear more from him.

- Shotty: See above.

SpyreX, Friend and LMP continue to give me town vibes. I don't agree with every case, but they're not afraid of taking stances and pressuring and questioning their suspects and they're moving the game forward the most.

I'd rather vote Nexus (if you can't decide if cloud is dumb scum or confident town why don't you vote him to get more info out of him? Afraid to wagon on your buddy?) but I support a Cloud wagon right now.

Vote: cloudocean

No active scumhunting...at...all!

[Dekes]

@MS
Well, are two votes on Nexus and pacman high heavens already?

From there, read back.

[Dekes]

Exactly.

So why did you need feel to defend the pressure votes on Nexus (I don't remember if you did the same for pacman) when they were in no danger of being lynched?

[Dekes]

EBWOP: Of course, you defended Nexus and not the votes.

[Dekes]

Okay, here's a quick summary of cloudocean's "actions" so far:
- RVS vote
- hops on the most promising wagon for invalid reasons
- rest of D1 almost only one worded anti-prod posts
- hops on one of the most promising wagon on D2
- silence

How is any of that beneficial to town? Does anybody get town vibes from cloud?
While absence is a nulltell, active lurking isn't. I can give you a prime example: cloudocean himself in his first completed game.
While meta can be unreliable and two completed games can hardly be count as meta at all, the similarities are undeniable. He was scum in that game and had seven posts in total, three of them being votes without hardly any reason and only one post longer than one line.

However, all of the above is irrelevant at the moment since cloud hasn't been active anywhere since Sunday. He's long overdue for a prod (

@mod: cloudocean needs to be prodded

). But I'll leave it here in case he's coming back. Btw, A lot of this counts for shotty as well.

Right now I'd support an MS or a Nexus lynch. I'm not gonna put MS at L-1 now (I just realized I put cloud at L-1, mod forgot to count PM's vote), because

- Shotty needs to talk a lot more. I want suspects and reasons. And

- I'm waiting on Inhim's introduction. Suspects would be neat as well.

@MS
Well, then it was either a misunderstanding or you were trying to rectify that post. Because you were quoting me back then and I was clearly not talking about the redtail wagon but your general persistence on hindering any pressure votes on D1.

And finally,

Unvote

[Dekes]

Hey, it's my Newbie mod!

Good. I like it when replacements are just as scummy as their predecessors.
Inhim enters the thread seeking diplomatic immunity by applying for the death pact. I don't care if it was meant as a joke.
Then he actually states that he thinks Nexus was behaving scummy. Pretty clever. Also pretty scummy.
Add to that the points LMP brought up and my former suspicion of Nexus and you get

Vote: InHim

Note: I'd rather lynch Inhim today, but if this wagon doesn't lift off by Monday, I'll switch over to MS before deadline.

[Dekes]

Meh, bulletproof is an easy claim in your position. Hard to prove for us and gives you enough excuses for being alive the following days.

Nothing much has changed since my last post. Still prefer an InHim lynch (way to avoid this thread with a convenient MS wagon shortly before deadline around), will switch my vote to MS before deadline if needed.

[Dekes]

Well, I'd say either massclaim or No Lynch, not both. Unless there's an PR combo that can guarantee us more info tomorrow what's the point in massclaiming and then letting scum kill off the most important PR after the no lynch?
I would rather have someone come forward with solid, useful information instead of massclaiming right now but if pacman wants to elaborate on how massclaiming could help us, I'd like to hear it.

LMP, who are your top scum picks? Yesterday it looked like you weren't against an InHim lynch. And today you lean towards pacman and me. And we aren't even sure how many scum are left (I don't know whether 8-1-3 or 8-1-2 is more likely, but like pacman I'm treating today as MyLo before taking any risks).

InHim, did you hammer MS because you found him scummy or out of self preservation? An honest answer would be neat but I'm not greedy here. I'm asking because there wasn't a lot indicating that you would be willing to throw down the hammer or suspicion towards MS at all except your very concise, reasonless scum list.

Shotty, what are your thoughts on....anything so far? Who do you think is scummiest right now and would you prefer No lynch, massclaim or neither?

[Dekes]

Well, waiting for input from pacman, InHim and Shotty.

Shotty, your suspects and a bit of opinion, please. Apart from a case on the redtail you've been one lining and voting your war until now. It's harder to get a read on you this way. And this is rather in the interest of scum than town. How limited is you access? Because it's like, you know, probably a crucial point in the game.

My main suspect is still InHim. I could make a case on him, but the only things he did since my last (admittedly very short) case on him was hammering MS without warning or reason and the promise to give us a better lynch (in the same post where he admitted having been playing lazily so far).

So, I guess I'll wait for a bit. Oh yeah, agree with LMP. After your claim a NL would just make tomorrow like today without the second mason. I wonder if shotty did even read your post before voting no lynch.

[Dekes]

Pacman: Promised content, posted frequently in other parts of the forum since then. Avoiding this thread.
Inhim: Promised content, posted frequently in other parts of the forum since then. Avoiding this thread.
Shotty: Promised content...you can guess the rest.

Now, there can't be three scum left. But the longer it takes for those people to come up with their next post, the more and more I believe there's scum in there struggling with making up a believable, convincing townie mislynch.

I'm ready to vote for InHim unless his next post comes soon and actually makes sense as a town post.

[Dekes]

EBWOP: Same goes for Shotty and pacman, though I did get town vibes from pacman so far, so he's got a slight bonus over the other two.

[Dekes]

Are you serious? We waited so long for your analysis and after 19 pages and Day 3 you have essentially four null reads? You just dropped a lot of points in my book with this godawful wishy-washy afraid to take any stances post.

"a (very) mild scum lean"? Lol.
I think I'll check the thread to see if there are any indicators that would point towards a pacman/InHim scum team. AFAIR pacman's interactions with Nexus/InHim were minimal at best.

[Dekes]

Well, I was right. Pacman and Nexus/InHim had no direct communication with each other. The only thing I could gather was pacman telling LMP Nexus was null for him. Has there ever been greater distancing in the history of ms? But if InHim wants to sacrifice his buddy that works for me.

If we continue to massclaim you surely don't get to say who goes next, Inhim. Either you go first or LMP picks the next one seeing as he already claimed and he's 99% confirmed town.

@mod

Can you remind shotty that he's still in this game? He's been overly active in every other of his games, yet ignoring this one.

[Dekes]

I know I'm in it, just nothing I felt like comenting on has happened

What!? We could very well be in LyLo, there are opinions, suspects, claims and nothing would warrant your comment? Who are your suspects and why?

Didn't I just say you that possible scum should not have the say as to who goes first? Ugh, you might as well popcorn the next person, shotty.

[Dekes]

EBWOP: *tell you

[Dekes]

After rereading the last couple of pages I'd rather lynch InHim instead. Where exactly do your suspicions against pacman come from? You didn't mention him in your first list and you actually never mention him again unless he's suddenly your top suspect. Coincidentally right after Friend, LMP and myself all agree that pacman might very well be scum.

Could be InHim aiming for an easy mislynch here. I'm not ruling out the possibility of an InHim/pacman scum team. It's just I feel more confident about InHim as I can see also an InHim/shotty team or a little out of the box InHim/Friend or InHim/noone.

I'm ready to vote him once everybody has had their say in this.

[Dekes]

Actually, it takes four to hammer. But wow, what a bad play by shotty -> InHim/shotty team for sure.

Vote:InHim

One scum down, one to go. Yay for not starting my ms career with 0-3!

[Dekes]

Well, actually I have to thank Beanman for my 0-1 (though I didn't play that well, I gotta admit) and zwet for my second loss. Ask LMP about it. I'm sure he will happily tell you all about it

[Dekes]

Oh, HELL'S YEAH!

Great job there, Friend!..it's about time we brush up or record

[Dekes]

EBWOP: *our

[Dekes]

^ I pretty much approve of this post.

Friend, if you don't mind go ahead and link our QT.

[Dekes]

I don't think Friend has any objections: Mafia QT

LMP, would you mind posting the Mason QT? Unless of course cloudoucean never visited it at all.

Thanks, Fate for modding this game. You did a fine job and I actually enjoyed your erratic flavor (editing Elli's post was hilarious XD)

And here a couple of thoughts about the/my game:

Well, i was off to a bad start with my post where I said I would vote redtail but didn't. It was worded awfully and I got a lot of heat for it. Luckily the soon-to-become Death Pact concentrated their wrath on redtail and the persons defending him and I was able to slip under the radar posting a semi-sensible post every now and then.
With Friend and Buttonmen on the dominating side of the town I tried to stay on the neutral side/opposing force with MS, Pacman and Nexus not following the Death Pact to avoid drawing connections to my scumbuddies.
Redtail completely disappearing after his wagon had died down of course helped a lot and got him lynched eventually.

On D2 I felt Friend and I were distancing too much basically ignoring each other completely, maybe due to the fact Buttonmen had been killed. It didn't matter though as pressure on Pacman and MS continued. MS got himself lynched which was yet another lucky moment for us. I believe him that he would've gone after Friend next and it would've been nigh on impossible if Friend had died to push for three mislynches and win this thing.

And our lucky streak continued with cloud being modkilled which made us head into MyLo one day sooner than expected. InHim never really found into this game and I was able to make a covincing case against him. Shotty's vote came out of nowhere but it was so ridiculous it actually helped speed things up and wipe away any last doubts in pacman's mind. It was unfortunate for pacman that he wasn't he able to come to the conclusion InHim had to be town after he got RB'd N1 and tracked InHim N2, but that was only one of the many things that worked in our favor.

Bottom line, I think I could improve my early play and it would've been a lot tougher if the town hadn't had that many inactive slots. But the scum team was awesome and perfectly took advantage of all the noise that was going in the game.