A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Mikujin]

Vote: LynchMePls

- your wish is my command

Raise: Mikujin

- 'cause I'm a rebel robot for now.

[Mikujin]

Checking in. Glad to be here to help save the realm.

Random.org commands, and I follow, so I will boldly:

Vote: Mikujin
Raise: danakillsu

@MOD: I thought this was a 27 player game, the list says 26. Am I mistaken? Thanks!

RandOMGUS is more like it. amrite?

[Mikujin]

Hopping on the Richard bandwagon for now, 'til I have more time to read through the last few pages I've missed.

Unvote
Vote: Richard

And while I'm at it...

Unraise

'til I get to scan said pages and get a solid read on someone.

[Mikujin]

Kleedrac is hilarious and he cheers up my cold, dark, brooding heart. I think on some level I enjoy being referred to as a douche, when done for the purposes of comedy. It's too bad he's scum and we have to lynch him.

Douchebags get a bad rap. We provide a useful service to the community.

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin: Just wow. I was honestly hoping that you were going to actually produce some contents. Instead, you basically said this:

"Doucebags like us should get more respect."

That's border-lining RVS comment and we've already gotten them. Your comeback was downright pathetic.

FoS: Mikujin

Well, it probably seemed random because it wasn't intended to be serious. What kind of asinine argument could I possibly be setting up by saying "Douchebags like us should get more respect?" Don't over analyze so much and lighten up a little. Sheesh.

[Mikujin]

In case I've still got votes and raises out on people:

unvote
unraise

I apologize for my lack of activity (and poor content when I was "active"). My first look at the thread after an RVS post had it growing by nearly 8 pages, which was both intimidating and somewhat demotivational. However, I've

finally

caught up on the 15 or so pages of content I had failed to read.

Of the several candidates for Hand that are actually accumulating some raises, I think I'm most comfortable tagging my raise on Percy. Amongst himself, xvart, and Drippereth, he comes of as the least abrasive of the candidates, and I dig that. He's raised some flags I might not have, which I suppose I can attribute to his experience more than anything, and his posts have all given credence to taking quality of quantity; every post I look over has good content to evaluate, even if he's got a lost postcount than the other popular candidates.

I find Drippereth to be a little... overzealous in its scumhunting, but up to this point I can't find any significant faults in its logic that raises any flags. Until such a time arises, Drippereth gets a pass on being town as well. Its playstyle is perhaps more aggressive than I'd prefer, but in a game this big I guess someone has to smack a few people around with a firm hand.

xvart is certainly another option for the raise I would consider, as he too has been active on the scumhunt and provided some interesting food for thought. I'm not sure if I agree entirely with some of his pursuits, but thus far he seems genuine and I can't say I'd be against his having the Hand either.

For now:

Raise Percy

After actually reading through everything, I'm not quite sure how I feel on popular lynch candidates, either. There was the wagon on Richard, and now a case on Kleedrac seems to be taking off as well. There's the case for lynching Hayker for lurking, and understandbly, myself for the same reasons. Despite all of those, there's at least one person bumbling about that I'm more suspicious of at this time: vezopiraka.

He's "contributed" nothing but a series of one or two line posts and up to this point has offered no more content than myself (prior to now).

@everyone: I think that for the first day or in some cases if we don't want to raise a hand we can raise the one who will be lynched so nobody could die because of it

First he suggests we raise to Hand whomever we lynch. This would eliminate the double-vote power we as a collective are being tasked with giving to someone. Seems like a counter-intuitive play, but there was a little talk of the merit it could have. I can let it slide without thinking too much into it for now...

That thing is not useful. So we have to pick a double voter? on day 1.
If we target scum we have a double voter scum.
If we raise town we have a double voter dead.
If we raise town scum may create WIFOM and make us lynch him.

All cases equal bad for town. I still suggest raising the one we are lynching

Then he again pushed for a raise/lynch, claiming it will be bad for town, regardless of the scenario, without even considering protective roles like doctor/roleblocker, or things like watchers that could help find scum in the event the double-voter is targeted. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that we've got at least one doctor out there with 26 people, so it's easy enough to assume a double-voter would be protected (at least for awhile). There's no reason to be wasting raises - especially since we're still on D1.

@drippereth: If you once again say that deer is scum I for one will vote for you and either if you or deer flips scum I will held a crusade to lynch the other

The first and last time we hear of any of vezo's suspicion of Drippereth. Will we ever see a follow-up now that Deer has been replaced?

I want to be raised as the new hand.
I am playing by role can't remember who is that called.
I am the next in line for the throne raise me.

I have no idea about the books.
I have no idea if I'm next in line but it seemed like I am a royal figure more or less.

Calls out for us to give him the Hand position after repeatedly calling out for us to raise and lynch someone. Follows it up by saying he's pretty sure being the Hand fits him because of flavor. Absolutely terrible attempt at trying to secure the double vote for you and your scumbuddies.

I play like this.
I do scumhunting when I get a good read on someone. Right now richard seems the scummiest but I don't have a case on him yet

Yes, you post one line responses and give us little content to question you on or get a suitable read from. Oh, and call people out/vote without providing any reason beyond "seems scummy." Oh, and prior to that we received:

I think Cmar is scum. Will post a case sometime soon

We never got that case, and (as I mention below), your suspicions of CMAR don't resurface until Kleedrac pops in with his own case on CMAR. Will we ever see an actual case on

anyone

from you? Only time will tell, I suppose.

unvote
Vote Richard

Your last post is ultra scummy.

Another fine example of your skills in scum detection.

I suspect players but nobody seems to listen to me so I vote the one with the biggest wagon and who I find scummy.
English is not my first language.

You suspect no one up 'til this point, save Richard, which is blatant bandwagoning. Richard then claims, and you unvote only to latch onto the CMAR wagon Kleedrac tries to start up.

unvote
Vote mikujin
The amount of scuminess in your posts is overwhemling

I make a couple posts that entirely lack content (my apologies to everyone for that) and you immediately flip to me. I'm not sure whether you genuinely found my sarcastic overtone scummy, or if you were just out to lynch a lurker. Either way, you

again

throw a vote around with not real clarification as to why you're doing it.

I will /barn that. This is what I told you/ was going to tell you and forgot.

Unvote
Vote Richard

I'm not exaclty sure what "barning" is - I saw it mentioned/used a few times but found nothing in the wiki, care to enlighten me anyone? - but you again hop onto the Richard wagon with little to no justification. Your lack of reasoning provides us with little to nothing to go on, and leaves you looking non-commital. I find this methodology to be highly suspect, and at this time, I'm satisfied that you are certainly scum.

vote: vezopiraka

(I apologize for the wall of text, but after missing 15 or so pages I guess it was bound to happen. I'll do my best to avoid being flagged as a lurker from here on out!)

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin (419)

- In those 15 or so pages you found nothing but scummy behavior on Vezo?

I thought it best to make my case against the person I was most suspicious of rather than try to address every individual instance of suspicion I'd have come across in my 17 page read. I figured my most relevant thoughts would be the important ones to share.

[Mikujin]

I'd also like to hear more from Miku that isn't a complete tunnel.

Like I said before, it was a long-winded catch up post and I didn't want to make it longer than it already was. That said, I wasn't trying to tunnel in on Vezo, just state my case out against him and provide the reasons for my vote against him, since he was at the height of my suspicious-persons list.

Another person who I've at least been raising an eyebrow at as I've perused through the last few handfuls of pages is danakillsu. He hasn't really contributed much, more or less just given his commentary and tossed a few votes and vague suspicions around. He's also flip flopped on a few things to go with the flow.

Also, obviously we want to give the vote to a mediocre townie rather than a smart person we're not sure about. I just don't know that we have a for-sure townie option.

His very next post follows up as:

I would be in favor

(of raising Drippereth)

. Drippereth is a good alternative to CMAR or axelrod. If a few people decided to raise Drippereth, I would definitely do it, although I would prefer to raise axelrod. My reasoning is that I have no reason to believe Drippereth is scum, and they are definitely experienced enough to handle a double-vote properly.

Italics added for context. It seems to me he'd rather just go with the flow of the masses than really try to put forth anything himself. Again, I say this as from what I've gathered the Drippereth hydra thing seems to be an intelligent player(s) as several players show him/her/it some reverence. I'm new here (and to the game; I'm one of the newbies Eddard mentioned previously) so I'm still trying to figure out who everyone is for the most part.

So the player you found most suspicious happens to coincide with the player who (IMO) is by far the weakest link in the game, pure lurkers aside? At this point assuming we have a Vig of some sort I’d suggest vezo falls into pure

VI

territory and would be a logical vig target. He’s the type of player, as others have noted, that we are going to learn nothing useful from his lynch.

What makes you think that Vezo is simply a village idiot (I assume that's the VI thing)? At this point he hasn't really contributed a lot, but as I'm not familiar with him myself I can't assume he'll never give us anything we can glean knowledge from. I didn't like what he "contributed" and thought it scummy.

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin: Do you have any other suspects on the Richard wagon than vez?

I wasn't specifically analyzing the Richard wagon to find suspects. Vez caught my entirely entirely separate from the wagon. However, I'll go back to when the Richard wagon started up an see if anything strikes me as particularly suspect.

And in reference to your previous statement (in the same post) regarding me: yes, I've realized my own bandwagon vote on Richard was tactless; I've apologized since for doing such rather than doing the seemingly daunting task of reading everything I'd missed.

Preview Edit:
Ok, after taking a quick look over a few of the bandwagoners:
- danakillsu: I've previously stated my suspicions of dana (all explained in a previous post)
- Deer: He's gone now, so the only thing we have to go off are his first few posts. He certainly seemed quick to jump on the defensive when prodded a bit by Drippereth, and his "reasoning" for voting Richard seemed little more than an excuse to hop aboard a good wagon.
- Migwelloni: his "I'm late to the party!" self-joke-vote seemed a little... odd, but the only thing I really dislike is his lurking. We're now 20 pages in and he's still only managed two posts - one to jokevote, one to hop on a bandwagon.

I didn't really find anyone else that drew my attention all that much. I'm still trying to get a feel for reading people out. Conversely,I'm quite confident in my top picks for town at this point, which are: Percy, Drippereth, and MacavityLock - in that order. They're all taking a unique approach to how they address people, but for the most part all seem pretty objective in what they've been saying.

[Mikujin]

Why do you feel that throwing out town reads is a good idea? In addition, I don't understand why a unique approach to addressing people and being "objective" in what they're saying(what does that even mean?) means for being town or not. Why could they not do this as scum? Do you have any posts in particular that make you think that?

Do you think calling out town reads are a bad thing? Being objective means they look at things in a non-biased manner; though you're entirely correct scum could do it as well. I'm unconvinced that they're scum at this point, though. As for examples, I'll just let you look up Percy's last content post.

Here are some questions for you.
What do you think of CMAR?
What do you think of Kleedrac and the fact that his bandwagon has grown so quickly?
What do you think of Richard and his claim?

1. I'm not particularly fond of CMAR, to be frank. At this time I'm sitting on the fence as to whether I'd slot him into scum or town. Some of his posting has been a little overzealous, so I'm not sure if he's just eager, or overplaying things.

2. I think Kleedrac got a bad rap quick for being a little overzealous in his own crusade against CMAR. He quickly overreacted to a few proddings, and I'm not sure if he's scum or newbie under pressure. That the bandwagon grew so quickly makes me think people think the former, but it picked up speed just as fast or faster than the bandwagon on Richard, and I think it's a little sketchy. I certainly feel that the personal attacks on this guy are quite unwarranted. I weep for our future when I see shit like this:

I wanted to know Kleedrac's age. He sounds young. If the information on his profile is correct, he's 30?

Unfortunately yes. Yet he sounds like a teen complaining that he doesn't get his way. Funny part is that I'm almost twice as young as he is (Just finished 10th grade) and I try to act like an adult.

Personal attacks in any game are pathetic. I'm glad the mod called people out on this crap.

3. I'm still not sure about Richard. His claim certainly seems legit, but claims can't always be trusted. It might just be a really good fakeclaim for all we know. I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it. With his claim on the board, I'm just fine trying to find someone else to lynch on D1, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out.

[Mikujin]

I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it.

Statements like this set off my scumdar. If Richard gets lynched or NK'd, and flips town, you get to say "see, I wasn't sure about him". If he flips scum you get to say "see, I knew I shouldn't trust him". It seems like fence sitting hidden in "I can't get a read" language.

I thought it less prudent to leave a question asked of me unanswered, so I gave the most honest one I could.

[Mikujin]

When exactly did you become most suspicious of Vezo? If it became midway through your reading wouldn't you already have other thoughts compiled? It appears to me that you went through the ISO of someone and just commented on that person. If you really did a read through I would expect some other analysis besides pretty tame topics of the Raise candidates.

After several bandwagon jumps and zero follow-through on some cases he claimed to have, Vezo certainly didn't earn any townie points from me. And of course I'd developed some other thoughts by that point, but nothing really jumped off the page with suspicion to me in the way Vezo's lack of, well, anything, did. I certainly used his ISO (I assume this is isolated posting, yes?) when helping to organize my case against him, but I certainly didn't set out with a mindset of "RNG a guy and build a case."

@Mikujin: Do you have anything to say on Raivann's jump on RichardGHP's bandwagon? He replaced Deer if you haven't noticed.

He tried to find some justification to do so, in saying that Richard's claim was weak, and that we shouldn't worry if Richard dies because - hey! - someone gets a day vig out of if it he was telling the truth. And then...

Call me a sucker, but I believe Kleedrac here. He seems to be genuinely pissed.

Ok, a non-committal toss in to give Kleedrac a little support. But then why...

I see nobody argees with my view of Richards claim, and I don't think Renly is that prominent of a character as xvart was saying.

unvote, Vote: Kleedrac

choo choo!. Someone made a good point about yeah he was pissed but that could just as easily come from scum

... Do a complete 180? Bad bad bad. And this time there's not even an attempt to justify the bandwagon jump. More than anything this strikes me as extremely opportunistic - you come off more scummy now than ever before, taking whatever measures necessary to go unnoticed. If I had any inkling of suspicion against your predecessor Deer, you've certainly amplified it tenfold with this little ploy.

unvote
vote Raivann

[Mikujin]

Yes, the surge of votes away from Kleedrac leaves me wondering as well. What makes Raivann a better lynch than Kleedrac?

As far as I can tell, we haven't had any votes move from Kleedrac to Raivann - three votes have moved from others to Raivann. Unless you're wondering why people are moving votes from others to Raivann, in which case I posit the following:

Kleedrac

- case against CMaR was faulty at best (tons of quotes simply tagged as "scummy")
- "... everyone is scum at the moment" viewpoint
- overreacted to prodding
- reacted about as expected from personal slander
- resigned to being lynched very quickly (somewhere around the 6/14 votes mark)

Raivann

- predecessor was Deer, who as stated, overreacted to some simple (and even joking) prods from Drippereth
- kicked the game off by saying "I fakeclaimed, Richard can too" in order to hop on the bandwagon
- thinks it's a good idea to lynch a townie just to enable a one-shot vig

- defends Kleedrac

- opportunistically votes Kleedrac (admits to bandwagoning), then says it's not scummy

Yea, they both do look scummy. For now, call me crazy, but I like Raivann as a better lynch for today, with Kleedrac perhaps a good follow-up lynch. Raivann's recent posting, however, is simply teeming with too much scum to ignore.

[Mikujin]

3) Lynch Raivann. But if we don't do this today, even if he's scum, it probably won't hurt us.

oops!

unvote, Vote: Danakillsu

This vote seems OMGUS-ish. I mean, dana just finishes outlining his opinion on who our valid lynch candidates are and - surprise surprise - you show up on the list. Then instantly vote him. I'll admit your quoted text does make it seem like dana is trying to deflect some heat off of your threat-level, but I'm sure that's more an impact-not-intent matter (that is to say, he did not mean for that outcome).

If you guys don't lynch dana for pretty much claiming scum or Richard who is obvious scum, please lynch me.

Mina is probscum too, thats why she is voting me. To negate my awesome scumhunting. Not gonna fool me this time Mina!

That's just plain pathetic. I'll gladly lynch you, and everyone else should hop on board that. Even if you're

not

scum,

telling everyone to lynch you is anti-town play

. Even I can see that. It's apparent at this point that you are either:
- Scum, and desperate to avoid the lynch, or;
- a village idiot who has no real concern for the outcome of the game.

PREVIEW EDIT:

Ugh, really Raivann?

Sorry I read Dana's post wrong, I'm buzzing pretty good right now.
I thought he meant even if he's town it wont hurt us and typed scum because of a scumslip.... ugh.
I would rather we lynch Richard, but it doesn't seem to be going that way, so I hopped on popular wagon. Do I believe we have better chance of hiting scum with Richard lynch? Yes. But I'll go with the flow D1.

You draw tons of suspicion to yourself, now you're just trying to double back and save face. And failing pretty mightily. "Woops, I messed up, I'll just do what you guys want." Scum. A million times over.

Super smash goes out of his way to appear townie which makes him scummy.

FoS:SupersmashBrosfan

The accusation might actually hold some ground if you tried to justify it with a case. You just seem more and more desperate to avoid any suspicion, so you're just tossing spaghetti around at this point and hoping it sticks somewhere. In the last what - 40 minutes? - you've named no fewer than

four

"scummy" players and provided cases and/or evidence for

zero

. You best put on your thinking cap and make the best damn case you can - not to lynch someone else, but to let us know why the hell we shouldn't lynch you, because at this point I'm hoping it's apparent to everyone else what you are.

[Mikujin]

Dana: what's your reasoning for Kleedrac hurting us more if he's scum than Raivann? Your post only seems to have the reason that Kleedrac isn't posting any more. Is that it?

I'm not saying he will hurt us more as scum, just that he WON'T hurt us LESS. However, if he is TOWN, Kleedrac will do much less for us than Raivann will if Raivan is TOWN. In other words, Kleedrac-scum is approximately equal to Raivann-scum. Kleedrac-town << Raivann-town. Therefore, if Kleedrac is equally scummy to Raivann, we should lynch Kleedrac. Do I make myself clear? Also, I would like to hear others' thoughts on my post that Raivann messed up on rather than their bashing of Raivann for messing up. I think the messing up part is a null tell, personally.

What sets them apart as townies? I mean, how/why is Raivann going to do any more for the town than Kleedrac would? It just strikes me as something odd, especially since Kleedrac is/was at least attempting to build cases against people, while Raivann's voting decisions certainly a lot more... unjustified. If anything, I'd hazard that the exact opposite of what you're suggesting is true: I think that if Kleedrac and Raivann both ended up being town that Kleed's contributions would be more substantial.

[Mikujin]

Um....
How about...
Raivann is actually posting? And Kleedrac has simply given up?

Kleedrac's giving up is somewhat understandable, though not entirely excusable. There were a lot of personal attacks that followed the questions of both his case and character, and while we're past that point now (and hopefully don't go back there), if I were in his shoes I might have been just as discouraged by it. If he rejoins us, awesome, if not... well, that's the way things go sometimes.

That said, while Kleedrac's excuse for lack of posting is poor, Raivann has no excuse for posting poorly. He's flip-flopped, laid accusations without making cases, and tossed votes around in a manner contradictory to previous statements. He is certainly more scummy than Kleedrac at this point.

Remember: Quantity != Quality. Raivann may have more activity, but his posting certainly isn't thought out.

And Mikujin was bashing Raivann.

I fail to see how making a case out on Raivann should be interpreted as "bashing" him. Care to explain?

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

[Mikujin]

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

Yes, "whether Richard was town or not". Raiv didn't say that we should "lynch a townie" to enable the vig. There is a difference.

If he's willing to lynch Richard - regardless of whether he's town or scum - then that's certainly the implication I'd take away from it.

[Mikujin]

I fail to see how making a case out on Raivann should be interpreted as "bashing" him. Care to explain?

Did you read the context in which I said that? I was saying that you were bashing him for messing up on what I said. I will stick with that statement, though it may not mean the same thing to you that it means to me. I meant that you were calling him scummy for something that wasn't scummy in my book, and doing it with gusto.

Alright, that makes more sense now. For some reason, I always jump right to the conclusion that "bashing" implies a personal attack of character. No harm, no foul.

[Mikujin]

I'm not lurking (intentionally) or avoiding the game. I've been keeping up with the goings on in this game, and have watched as the CMAR case built up some momentum. Just haven't made a post since there wasn't anything worthwhile I could contribute.

CMAR's oddly timed lurking may be a good tipoff that he's scum, but he at least put some effort into early game-day play, while Raivann (and his predecessor) have done little worth mentioning. I'd also like to reiterate that Raivann's attitude and play have been rather flippant and dismissive. He's quick to vote for the flavor of the day just to go with the flow, and when a case is presented against him, his sarcastic response does nothing to answer the suspicions raised against him. He's going unnoticed because of other prospective lynch targets (namely CMAR and Kleedrac/Budja), and with good reason. The cases presented against CMAR are well laid out and display clearly why CMAR is scum. While I'm more than willing to move my vote to ensure a D1 lynch doesn't go to waste, I still feel Raivann is the better candidate for the lynch. For those of you who are voting CMAR (some of whom were formerly voting Raivann), can you briefly tell me what sets CMAR's scummitude a step above Raivann's? I'm just no quite certain how he rose to the top of everyone's list so quick.

[Mikujin]

Well not much has changed.
Richard is still scum, Mina sure seems scared to leave me alive. Percy seems to always wanna lynch me.
Thor's post seems scummy to me as well, he is making sure not to offend.

You should open up a restaurant with all that spaghetti you're throwing around. At least

try

to make a worthwhile case as to why we should lynch someone else over you. This is just another fantastic post where you try to implicate several other people without providing any supporting evidence for your scum "reads."

I get townvibes off lynchmepls,xvart,drippereth.
I'm not a fan of either mine or CMAR wagons, but..

unvote, Vote:CMAR

To save my own ass and he has totally disappeared, he's not even voting anyone.

Be careful trusting Mina, she's really good at this game.

p.s. Name of the Wind is a must read!

I'm not certain what to make of your town "reads," because like so many others they lack any substance as to why you feel that way. Your vote on CMAR also sounds terrible - at least if you just said "Choo choo" like last time we could accept the simple fact you're bandwagoning; the "save my own ass" remark just makes you come off scummy and desperate.

@Mina: I hope you like Italian, Raivann got carried away cooking.

[Mikujin]

I'm none too familiar with the source material, so I can speak for the sensibility of Raivann's claim, but it certainly seems to make sense. That said, several people have made worthy mention that it could be a fakeclaim; I assume the source material both has volume and variance enough that this could also be the case. I'm somewhat attracted to the idea Mina and Rifka are supporting - that is, giving him a list of targets - but is this a sound move? In some of the hypotheticals concerning Raivann:
1. His claim is good. He may be roleblocked or his target protected, preventing a kill. His claim goes unconfirmed.
2. It's a fakeclaim and he's a SK. Regardless of the outcome, it's going to be difficult to distinguish between Vig and SK if he does successfully kill someone on the list.
3. It's a fakeclaim and he's scum. His scumteam can target one of the people on the list, and Raivann can claim to have killed the target. Leads us back to questioning a Vig/SK scenario.

In light of this, I'm somewhat hesitant to trust Raivann's claim, but it seems with a vig claim, more people are going to be hesitant to lynch him (at least for today). If Raivann is not our lynch today, he and his claim should certainly be revisited.

unvote

For now, CMAR certainly looks like a good candidate for the D1 lynch. The loads of cases built on him, coupled with his extensive lack of posting (and recent "OH SHIT!" post) certainly do little to convince anyone he's anything but scum. Until CMAR answers some of the questions put forth to him, I have no problems with making him our lynch.

vote CMAR

Also:

Obv fakeclaim.

You were voting to raise CMAR.

I don't want to lynch a vig now.

If CMAR flips scum raviann should be obv scum.

Someone asked who I believe scum.
I believe both of them are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMAR

Vezo one again piques my attention with this post.
@ Vezo: What makes Raivann's claim an "obvious fakeclaim?" Furthermore, if his claim is fake, why do you say you "don't want to lynch a vig now?" If it's a fakeclaim, he's not a vig. Finally, is there anything to corroborate your belief that CMAR and Raivann seem to be working together? You state that if CMAR flips scum, Raivann is obviously scum as well, but I fail to see a connection between them. Please respond to these, Vezo, as once again it seems like you're just spouting nonsense to move between bandwagons.

[Mikujin]

Raviann and CMAR have been working togheter.
Look at the last votecount before hand was raised.
Raviann is voting to raise CMAR.

Raivann raised CMAR during his first post when he replaced in. I hardly consider that this means they're working together. That being said, you did answer one of my three questions; now, if you wouldn't mind answering the other two. For your convenience, I'll quote and mark them here:

@ Vezo:

(1) What makes Raivann's claim an "obvious fakeclaim?"

Furthermore, if his claim is fake,

(2)why do you say you "don't want to lynch a vig now?" If it's a fakeclaim, he's not a vig.

Finally, is there anything to corroborate your belief that CMAR and Raivann seem to be working together? You state that if CMAR flips scum, Raivann is obviously scum as well, but I fail to see a connection between them. Please respond to these, Vezo, as once again it seems like you're just spouting nonsense to move between bandwagons.

[Mikujin]

I said fake claim cause I thought he was scum with CMAR. After what axel said I come to think I might be wrong.

Anyway. This is the only way to prove it.

unvote
Vote Richard

How the

hell

does voting Richard help prove Raivann is or is not scum with CMAR?

[Mikujin]

You people need to stop exploding the thread like this, I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever catch up (currently I'm on Page 17 - I'm slow, I suck, I know).

I'm really not liking vezopiraka's play either now or then, it almost seems too sadly obvious to be scummy (take what cheese with this wine you will) but his constant flipping around, lack of explanations on his suspicions, and desire to manage some vote, any vote, without any seeming preference just rubs me in very unpleasant ways.

I now see why someone joked about my CMAR read as now I've gotten to that unvote/soft claim thing. I agree with everyone who has commented about his most recent post as well, it was a non functional post. I still don't particularly want him lynched right now.

Mikijun and Hayker are both active lurking to an offensive level, they are both scummy.

I don't think I support the Richard wagon at this point, I'd rather lynch Raiv if I had to choose between the two and I don't like the sudden scramble to Richard in light of the Raiv claim - what exactly about that claim suddenly puts Richard back in play when previously he was not an option?

Im thinking we lynch richard for a win-win. If he is scum, yay. If he is telling truth, vig blows someone like CMAR up

Do you find Richard scummier then CMAR? Why not just lynch CMAR if CMAR is that scummy?

IIRC, I stop lurking around page 20, or something, after I finally did a full read-through and caught up.

@thor;Sad as it is, i suspect cmar will actually flip town. But in this situation with richard being very scummy(actually he got scummier after his claim than before) and richards claim being what it is, i think it makes more sense to go with him. As i said, either way on a richard lynch we have a high chance of hitting scum this way. i dont think its likely out of two scummy players, both will flip town. budja and vezo are good canidates for vigging too though

More succinctly, lynching CMAR will only lynch CMAR, but a richard lynch will both lynch richard and kill CMAR, or just hit scum

A Richard lynch does

not

secure both Richard and CMAR:
1) We can't confirm Richard is town.
2) If Richard is town, we can't say for certain Ser Loras will use his vig kill, and if he does, use it on CMAR. If Renly is its own faction, they may save it for later use.

Unless, of course, you're softclaiming Ser Loras and telling us you'll vig CMAR?

[Mikujin]

2) If Richard is town, we can't say for certain Ser Loras will use his vig kill, and if he does, use it on CMAR. If Renly is its own faction, they may save it for later use

Your suggesting richard be town\truthfull and the kill goes to an avenging scum?! Okaaay

...

Presumably whoever gets this vig, if true+town, will deliver it on an appropriate target like CMAR, as i stated previously. All you seem to do is raise pointless objections in your last posts. Whats your plan exactly?

I'm not making any assumptions. You said if Richard dies, CMAR also dies, which implies that

you

think he's town, and that

you

think his vig will avenge him by hitting CMAR (supposedly scum). There's a reason I said those were hypotheticals.

[Mikujin]

Also, I forget, did Mikujin ever explain why he'd jumped right away onto the Richard wagon? I thought his attack of Raivann at the end of the day felt a bit forced (although I'm not sold on Mikujin!scum).

Yeah, Mina, I explain here that my bandwagon vote on Richard was unwarranted by any of my own suspicions at that time, and I was just intimidated by the amount of posting I had to catch up on. I've made an effort to be more active in keeping up with and contributing to the thread since then.

As far as your dilemma goes for the scummier of Richard and Raivann, I've already expressed my suspicions of Raivann, and maintained them despite his claim. I'd much sooner seen Raivann die than Richard at this time.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't LynchMePls' vote hammer CMAR? Aren't we supposed to stop with the banter?

[Mikujin]

While I'm still behind a policy lynch on Vezo, who has continuously been "contributing" little, I'm not sure I like SSBF parroting my previous case on Vezo. Beyond that case, I pushed for Vezo's lynch a lot before met with a lot of "He's the VI" rebuffs. I can certainly see where those feelings came from, and lessened the pressure on Vezo in favor of the much more favourable Raivann lynch. That SSBF opens up D2 by posting a wall of text case on a player most people haven't given serious second thoughts to seems like he's just trying to redirect some heat to an easy target. Unsusccessfully.

That said, I believe Percy's case on dana is much more weighty than those on SSBF - for now. Raivann flipping scum (godfather) certainly gives much credence to Percy pointing out dana's wishy-washy attitude towards the Raivann. He'd repeat that Kleedrac(Budja) and Raivann were both equally scummy, but he preferred Kleedrac - who we now know was innocent. This circumstance certainly lends itself to proving dana's scummitude.

vote: danakillsu

[Mikujin]

@Drippereth: You declared a town read on Raivann here and never really changed your stance on that, so much as you did your stance on other players. This, coupled by your complete lack of evidentiary support for pretty much every callout you've made this game have me wondering what worth you are to the town in this game? Seriously, after reading over your ISO, you're just a bunch of stupid lists, finger-points, and dismissive "I'm right 'cause I'm right" statements. If you're right, let us know

why

you're right, instead of trying to look down on us from on high, assuming we'll follow you like sheep. I don't like you as town, but I like you less as scum. I understand there's likely some thought that goes on between those two heads of yours, but you're doing no favors to either the town or your position in it by withholding arguments in favor of those whose alignments you call out.

I hope that didn't sound too explosive, but I've felt it's been a long time coming. I'm still waiting for you to provide us with something more that ERRONEOUS ACCUSATIONS IN CAPS. Oh, and I suppose it'd also be of poignant interest to make mention that the two people you pushed most yesterday both ended up town. Everyone makes mistakes, though, right?

[Mikujin]

@Mod:

V/LA until further notice; grandma passed away. Probably be back late this week/early next week.

[Mikujin]

I gotta admit, all these relatives dying, houses burning, jobs lost, earthquakes, floods excuses drive me nuts :headwall:

I'll see what I can do in the future to make sure my family dies in accordance with your schedule. It's taking all the self-restraint I have to not fly off the handle for this rather flippant remark; I'll just call you a pretentious fuck and move along.

@Mod

: V/LA can be changed to specifically out Friday/Saturday/Sunday (out of town for the funeral). I'll likely be back Sunday afternoon/evening.

I'm at work right now, and as things aren't terribly busy I should be able to play catchup.

[Mikujin]

Doesn't excuse you from being an ass. You might be a robot but I'm not; nor do I feel any sort of devotion or commitment toward this game or any other that would supersede familial obligations.

Richard is confirmed town, I was the first person on Raivann's wagon, and Percy was the third (I suppose Percy's jump onto CMAR and back to Raivann could be a case of distancing from a buddy, briefly supporting an alternate lynch when it seemed viable, before deciding once and for all to cut ties--I'll reread the evolution of his opinions in context--but that would be kind of convoluted). You're better off making a case that we're on the other scumteam.

Went back to re-read that series of votes. Looks like Percy voted Raivann, voted CMAR, then cast another vote on Raivann assuming he had access to his Hand vote. Mod posted shortly thereafter notifying Percy was Hand, but that his double-vote kicked in on D2. Seems a lot less flippy-floppy to me having noted that.

Also, did a bit more skimming in ISOs...

I think RAIVAN is TOWN, but I don't think I agree with him on much at all.

I very much dislike this. You step in to defend Raivann, yet try to maintain some distance from him.

Richard's conf town, you're(Mina) awesomely town, so we're leaning Percy.

And now you're buddying up to Mina, who you kept on your list of neutrals for the better part of D1. In fact, you didn't start calling Mina town up 'til she tried to start back up the Kleedrac/Budja wagon, which you were still on. Am I to understand, then, that anyone who thinks like the hydra is auto-town, while anyone who does not needs to be evaluated? While I agree that Mina is in all likelihood town, something about the way you play really just keeps me on edge.

Due to upcoming deadline, it's time to look at viable wagons, and I can get behind a CMAR lynch. Unvote. Vote: CMAR. Magna, SSBF, Vezo, and Miku are other people I wouldn't mind lynching.

@MacavityLock:

Why do you think I was wishy-washy towards Raivann? I had been pushing his wagon hardest of all, and only lessened any pressure on him due to his claim, yet maintained a position that just because someone claims a power role, they should not get a free pass. What makes my vote change anymore "damning" than your own? At least I provided some reasoning behind my vote move beyond "I'm hopping on this wagon unless folks wanna lynch someone else I don't like."

@Mikujin: Was your case against vezo always for a "policy" lynch? That's not how I read your original case......

No; my initial case on Vezo was based on legitimate concern. His play, however, has been consistently lackluster, and I have thusly moved Vezo to the "policy lynch zone" while we've bigger concerns to address (namely the cases concerning dana, CSL, SSBF, and my growing concerns with Drip).

While I think the cases on CSL and SSBF hold merit, I'd certainly encourage (as Unsight has) that people give Percy's case on Drippereth a once-over, and take a read through its recent posting. In my mind, for right now, Drip is my #2 candidate for today, with CSL/SSBF bringing up the rear of those I'm most concerned with. dana will remain #1 until such a time as we get a response to him regarding the recent cases made against him.

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin

: Your notes on the Drippereth hydra are interesting, but I'm a little confused - you first quote the hydra as saying they like Raivann for town but don't agree with him, then accuse them of having townreads only on those they agree with...?

Actually, now that I think about it, this might have some meat to it. Raivann appears to be the only player that the hydra has a townread of whom they disagree with, which is an extension of what I was pointing out to Mikujin. Their earlier all-out-attack on Deer, continued through after Raivann replaced in, makes the sudden turn-around more surprising.

I've also found some interesting vezokpiraka interaction from the hydra - start

here

with DGB talking about how she's found a genuine tell from vezokpiraka, followed up by a reaffirmation of the read

here

and

again

and

again

. And then, we have the first serious

scum/town list

, but look who's on the town list - vezokpiraka. Not the Scum, Lurkerscum or even the Neutral list.

That's what I was getting at, Percy. Drip did not agree with Raivann, but claimed a townread on him; nowhere else have we seen this from him. All his other townreads have been likeminded individuals; even more so when they're actively pursuing a case Drip likes.

Nice catch on vezo in his lists, however; I'd not noted that gem.

[Mikujin]

We're working on Percy case but it probs won't be up for a few days.

While you take your sweet time doing that, why not also comment on some of the current cases? You have an annoying habit of disregarding everything people that are not you say. Which is annoying.

[Mikujin]

Because SSBF is town.

I LOL'd.

Me too, but I shot coffee out my nose.

[Mikujin]

Now all that said, Miku's early stuff would definitely be a harder bus than I'd expect to see from someone early in their Mafia career. Miku, do you have any completed games here? Any on other forums?

I'm currently participating in two games here, one newbie game and this game. From what I gather, it's bad form to link an active game, so I can't do that for you.

Don't have any other games played elsewhere; a friend told me about the game, pointed me here, and that's my mafia career in a nutshell.

[Mikujin]

I've just recently returned from my V/LA (as of yesterday late night). Had to pull an all-nighter for work, so I'm dead tired (and still at the office). I'll likely be dead to the world this evening; I'll try and catch up to post something worthwhile tomorrow evening.

[Mikujin]

I like dana's answer, but now I think about it, he could be a scum jailor.

The only way to find out if he's telling the truth is to lynch him, tbh.

UNVOTE; VOTE: danakillsu

If my math is correct, he be at L-2?

This certainly doesn't bolster my confidence in you, CSL. As Dana himself pointed out, this is a very poorly veiled bandwagon vote. Not only that, but you made sure to set up a fallback on dana early on - when you voted SSBF citing less justification than you have recently. In fact:

Why I voted SSBF and HOS'd dana? dana has done nothing but talk useless crap, but is at least trying to go the other direction.

SSBF is MUCH MUCH worse.

My emphasis. Why is SSBF "MUCH MUCH worse?" You've put forth no reasoning behind your stance, and have recently switched to dana - despite this comment - with the logic that we can only prove he's a Jailer if he's dead. While the Jailer claim, as has been mentioned, is a good Scum RB claim, there's certainly no reason to turbo him to prove his claim. In my eyes, you're doing all you can to push someone else in the line of fire, and it certainly does little to aid your credibility.

I'd FoS you, CSL, but it's been done a handful of times already, and I'm sure everyone notices your behavior as well as I at this point.

This is a bit ridiculous, you have to admit. From my side of things, I give you all that I can from my PM without just quoting it, the flavor and role fit, the character is real, I know nothing about these books, and the votes continue to pile up.

I don't really know what I did that was scummy, since no one will explain to me why my behavior is seen that way,

and there's really nothing I can do other than say "go town, you're lynching one of your PR's".

As has been stated prior, your insistence in pushing your "Don't lynch Raivann, lynch Kleedrac" agenda, accompanied with your constant attempts to keep the option of switching your vote at the drop of a hat, really looks scummy, especially in light of their respective flips. You pushed awful hard for us to lynch a townie in place of scum, citing that if we thought both were scum, there wasn't any reason not to. You ended up voting Raivann while his wagon picked up steam - well before it was a certainty he was being lynched - which just further makes you look like you were bussing a buddy. You've done little to allay any suspicions, and really seem to be flailing around - especially so since your claim hasn't given you insta-town appeal to the point everyone is unvoting you.

My outstanding vote on you shall remain where it is; your AtE ("go town, you're lynching one of your PR's") does little to draw my concern to you. You're grasping at straws in order to stay alive as long as possible.

[Mikujin]

Also, I was one of the ones who stabbed CSL. Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I think it'd be faster to count who

didn't

stab CSL. I mean, with Dana looking terribly scummy and likely on the block today, CSL seemed a good fallback because (as previously stated), we might have nullified a scum PR which would have otherwise been used against us tonight. Sad it didn't turn into a good ol' fashioned shanking though.

Also: hey new guy.

[Mikujin]

MOD specifically stated THE EXACT effects in his post. Why even post that you were bummed and that it would be a cool instant-kill mechanic? It obviously wasn’t.

Your statement adds nothing to the game and is just active-lurking filler.

Id be interested in hearing your argument why a person could get stabbed 10-20 times and only lose his ability\vote for the day

. It looked like a free lynch until i kept reading.

2. Why ask the second question, as it’s anything but rhetorical. Of course people would want a Scum PR dead. Why does suspicion of CSL as a potential Mafia PR eliminate the possibility that dana is a potential Mafia PR? Isn’t it a wise move by Town to potentially neuter a second scum PR while lynching another?

This itself, is filler posting in the same vein you accuse me of. The third sentence leaves me at a loss for words, im not even sure where this comes from.

When the flavor dropped there was one stab wound, not multiple, which means we just got to influence some dude with a shank. You're playing up the riot event to be more than it was.

dana is clearly scum.
the only way CSL got wounded is because people from dana's scum team stabbed him. This just proves that dana is scum.

This is bad. You realize there are 20+ people remaining, and it was a majority vote to shank CSL, right? There's no way dana's scumfriends are number enough players to swing the voting

that

heavily.

[Mikujin]

@DripHydra

– what happened to that grand Percy case? Was that coming from the Elli head?

Yeah. There were several things that bugged me. But then he's posting an avalanche of content... that seems town... and I'm thinking... would scum be SOOOOOOOO invested in figuring things out? Only if there are two scum teams, and he's looking for competition... otherwise he'd be town... I'm uneasy.

Anyhoo, if he's town, he'll be dead soon enough.

I know this phrase implies that scum will want to kill him for being town, but coming from someone who has raising eyebrows lately it could easily be mistaken for a threat. Unless of course no one is so naive, in which case my pointing this out is pointless.

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin

: Was

this

a roundabout way of claiming that you stabbed CSL?
(The open-ended nature of this post makes me )

Indeed that was the implication. I have, however, realized the error in saying "Just count non-CSL stab votes!" as the stab could be decided by plurality and not majority. It might be just as well; I don't want to let myself get caught trusting people who just claim to have acted one way or another with no proof to support their actions.

I'm at least a little intrigued with the way votes are falling on Vezo right now. While I am uncertain of Vezo's alignment, it is certainly worthy to note that several of the players who have been rather suspicious today (SSBF, dana, CSL) have been rather quiet since the "cases" on Vezo have been developed. SSBF's only real post is a very poorly drawn out "Gotcha!" directed at Drip. Of those in today's limelight, only Drip has remained active during this time (if you can call a series of one-liners and play-by-play commentary activity).

On that note, I think it's of merit to direct attention to

who

is voting for Vezo: Dana and Drip. Again, seems like they're just trying to take advantage of Vezo's recent "popularity" rather than develop some worthwhile ideas. They're both latching onto him based around his vote-hopping near lynch-time on D1, despite that a quick glance over Vezo's posting history shows him changing his vote quite frequently with little to no reasoning. While I'm not saying he can't be scum, I'm much more inclined to believe he's a VI.

Everyone should look at #1207 and #1208. He said he wants to lynch danakillsu, but then votes for vezokpiraka. This is a fine example of inconsistency.

He says we should lynch Diddin, because he jumped into the game pointing fingers at Dana and yourself, with no real independent conclusions. The fact Drip votes for Vezo next after proclaiming "Scum!" is hardly inconsistent with its play thus far. You're overeager to get attention off of yourself, and deflect it towards Drip.

[Mikujin]

Kill vezok or SSBF, and lynch the other, am I right?

Looks like our best candidate for scum was scum; as such I'm much more comfortable endorsing the one good plan CSL has put forth thus far.

On the likely chance one of them flips scum, though, wouldn't it be better served to pursue some of the links connected to either/or, rather than just jump to lynching the other? Certainly I'd say that this seems like a better plan the "kill this dude, lynch this dude regardless of the flip. Killing either of the runner-up scum candidates from yesterday certainly seems like it'd be in our best interests, however.

Another consideration may be to wait on the event investigation before offing either of them. No reason we can't use the investigation on one of the day vig candidates before we kill them; haste makes waste.

Deciding on the candidates for the investigation, I'd say, is pretty easy if we want to take our best crack at nailing scum. Excepting the fact that this [investigation]

is

a very handy tool we're being given - and my indeed serve us better elsewhere - I'd think it's in our best interests to investigate a candidate such as Vezo or SSBF (prior to a potential day vig). Valid concern should be given to both options.

Also, Thor - was the day vig claim brought on by simple hatred of the Vezo wagon, or did you just think that this would be a good time to drop the claim (given the investigation event and all)? Really seems odd to just drop it out of nowhere, at least from my perpspective.

(The last couple days of work have been ridiculously long, so I'm dead tired; if any of that sounds wonky I'll try to clarify it, bedtime for now.)

[Mikujin]

1. With the cop investigation I was able to turn this into a high information day for town.
2. I do hate the Vezo wagon...I have continuously commented on how distracting it is for town and how his 'too scummy to be scum' situation is distressing to me.
3. With 3 or so kills a night I would rather get my power out and used now while it can help speed up investigations rather then hoping I live till late enough to have a functional target to pick.

When do you think I should have "dropped it"?

What does everyone else think of Percy being put forward? He does have two votes, after all.

Mikujin: we can't wait, the alignment reveal gets posted with the lynch scene.

That was my fault; again, dead tired, misread the way the investigation event went down. I thought we were getting the results prior to lynch, at the end of the week of stepping forward, and that we'd be able to use said information to make an informed decision on who to snipe with the vig kill. (Thanks for point it out Lock)

In light of this, I'd say that SSBF is the better of the two choices (being Vezo and SSBF) for the vig targets. I think we're much more likely to glean useful information from SSBF's flip than Vezo's, since the latter of the two hasn't really been posting anything worth noting (except the recent claim crap).

Vig SSBD -> Investigate ??? -> Lynch ???/Vezo pending investigation, is what I'm thinking right now. The alternative in vigging Vezo isn't all that bad, either; get's rid of either scum or VI sooner than later.

This is all pending what we hear from Percy/Lock, of course. On that note:

@Lock:

All you're doing is saying you have "results" that indicate Percy is "anti-town." Forgive my skepticism, but are you softclaiming cop? And if you are/are not, to what extent is Percy anti-town (scum/third-party)? I only make the inquiry because you seem to be holding your tongue, which hasn't exactly been your style in the past. (For instance: in the past you've usually made your case and voted right away, but not this time.)

[Mikujin]

In light of this, I'd say that SSBF is the better of the two choices (being Vezo and SSBF) for the vig targets. I think we're much more likely to glean useful information from SSBF's flip than Vezo's, since the latter of the two hasn't really been posting anything worth noting (except the recent claim crap).

What information is gained if SSBF flips town? Isn't the point of a vig to, you know, kill scum? Do you think SSBF is more likely to flip scum than vezo? If so, why?

Because, as I've stated prior, I think Vezo is more likely to be a VI than scum. I made a case on him ages ago which I revised down the road stating as such, I stand by it. And while the day vig is

intended

to hit scum, what happens if it hits town? At least if SSBF flips town we can dismiss some bussing/buddying arguments that have fallen on him. If Vezo flips town we get to go "Oh, I guess the stupid claim wasn't as dumb as we thought."

All you're doing is saying you have "results" that indicate Percy is "anti-town." Forgive my skepticism, but are you softclaiming cop? And if you are/are not, to what extent is Percy anti-town (scum/third-party)? I only make the inquiry because you seem to be holding your tongue, which hasn't exactly been your style in the past.

Stop rolefishing. The only thing to do now is wait for Percy. Locke doesn't have to say a word until Percy gets here and does whatever 'splaining he needs to do.

Apologies for this; my original draft of that post also included the caveat that I didn't expect to hear any more from Locke until after Percy had replied to his accusations. I evidently failed to include it in the final draft.

[Mikujin]

Mod, your step forward list isn't correct. I think Benmage and Percy both stepped forward

That being said, whatcha got to hide Mikujin?

Thanks, you are of course correct. Fixing now.

Step Forward

Nothing, actually. I just don't spend every waking minute wondering what's going on in this game. (Though I usually do leave my browser on at home with this and several other pages open).

[Mikujin]

Light candle for Mikujin

Not nominating yourself under the premise of "oh I didn't read the day's OP" is malarky. He was trying to dodge the chance of being investigated.

@Macavitar:

A treat for you, since your "logic" is entirely unfounded. (And you seem intent on misrepresenting a statement that I

misread

something)

List of People Who Didn't Step Forward Immediately

:

• Benmage
• diddin
• SSBF
• Rifka
• RichardGHP (acceptable, IMO)
• Myself
• Locke
• Macavitar

It's worth noting that most people mentioned in there

did

Step Forward, between 2-4 posts into the day. Just throwing that out there in case you want to jump to some more stupid conclusions.

Light candle: hasdgfas

[Mikujin]

lol, keep reinforcing that scum read Mikujin. I agree completely with benmage that you "list" is devoid of context. Also, the big difference between those people and you is that they all stepped forward without being called out. You, however, were doing your best to not step forward at all. I sense a lynch in your future scumbag. Cower now.

Douse
Light a candle for: hascow

Investigation-1

The reason it lacks content is because it was

supposed

to. It was a big, pretentious list, which held as much weight as your "What do you have to hide?" argument. If I don't step forward after your call out, I'm scum. If I do step forward after your call out, I'm scum. Do you not see how flawed that is?

I hadn't posted in two days when I did the step forward, and you're attempting to use that timing to paint an ugly picture.

[Mikujin]

The reason it lacks content is because it was supposed to. It was a big, pretentious list, which held as much weight as your "What do you have to hide?" argument. If I don't step forward after your call out, I'm scum. If I do step forward after your call out, I'm scum. Do you not see how flawed that is?

I hadn't posted in two days when I did the step forward, and you're attempting to use that timing to paint an ugly picture.

Do you think you would have stepped forward had I not said anything? When you posted then, had you noticed everyone else in the game had a bolded Step Forward in their posts?

The answer ends up being WIFOM no matter how I answer it (coulda-woulda-shoulda).

[Mikujin]

The answer ends up being WIFOM no matter how I answer it (coulda-woulda-shoulda).

95% of this game is WIFOM. Stop dodging questions and freaking answer them. Hope you are noting all of this sidestepping Mina. I honestly don't see how I could be highlighting Miku's scummy behavior anymore than I already am.

You want me to answer questions that are going to give you no information, whatsoever. Regardless of how I answer any of your questions, you've made up your mind. Just to feed your gluttonous ego, though:

Do you think you would have stepped forward had I not said anything? When you posted then, had you noticed everyone else in the game had a bolded Step Forward in their posts?

Yes, I would've. No, I hadn't.

[Mikujin]

Overnight page explosion. I've only skimmed so far, but if SSBF really shot two scum then we should just keep him around and direct his kill for now. I think he's probably an SK, but useful.

SSBF, what DO you say to shooting vezo tonight?

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Unsight

@miku - I'll come to you later today when I get some time. Apparently my ginormous ego isn't finished with you yet.

Any reason in particular you're seeming to trust SSBF's hokey claim, and voting Unsight instead? Also looking forward to what I bolded. Hope it means we get to do lunch.

vote SSBF

[Mikujin]

And the fact that he flipped (your) Godfather shouldn't have any bearing on this series of events, hmm?
Also, Rifka beat me to the punch, but this is "you caught me for the wrong reasons".

...

Mikujin, what part specifiably do you find bogus about the claim? Macavitar said he was probably a SK, then you called him too trusting, so i really dont get it?

I don't like how convenient SSBF's claim seems to be - and I don't know how simple the Town/Innocent would be to make, but it's more null than anything. It could just as easily be townie mistake as it could be a scum/SK one. The fact that several others have mentioned that the flavor for his claim doesn't seem to fit certainly doesn't make me think better of him.

The reason I called Macavitar too trusting is because he calls SSBF out for "probably" being an SK, then wants to see what he can do for directing SSBF's kills. Assuming SSBF is the SK, what incentive is there for him to listen to such ideas? He

still

doesn't win, because we'll likely lynch him before LYLO, so why not just kill whomever he wants? If he's the SK, why do we let him live to kill someone else (likely a townie), rather than lynch him now to stem the problem at its roots? Just seems counterproductive. That's why I don't like Macavitar's suggestion/said he was too trusting of SSBF.

[Mikujin]

First, let me determine what questions give me information and what questions do not. You don't know my train of thought, so it might be worthwhile to not think you do. Second, pouty scum is pouty. Third, how do you think you would have figured out the need to step forward if you didn't see it in ~20 players posts and didn't read the OP for the day?

First: fair enough.
Second: bzzt, wrong.
Third: as I've had time enough to actually read things over in the past few days (ie. not working 16 hour days again til Saturday) I'd have actually had plenty of time to reread everything. Don't need to now, since you've evidently got this game all figured out now, don't you?

Assuming SSBF is the SK, what incentive is there for him to listen to such ideas? He still doesn't win, because we'll likely lynch him before LYLO, so why not just kill whomever he wants? If he's the SK, why do we let him live to kill someone else (likely a townie), rather than lynch him now to stem the problem at its roots? Just seems counterproductive. That's why I don't like Macavitar's suggestion/said he was too trusting of SSBF.

Translation: "Don't tell SSBF kill my scumbuddy tonight! Not fair guys!"

I'll break it down for you, if SSBF is an SK and we lynch him today, he has a 0% chance of winning. If he's an SK and we let him live on his "vig" claim, which he holds up by killing who the town tells him to kill, he has approximately a 0.0001% chance of winning because he's STILL ALIVE. Which of these numbers is greater Mikujin?

Translation? Please, quit being so pretentious. If I was scum, what incentive do I have to try and push a case on a scumbuddy D1 after being called out for being a lurker? I know you're a hydra now (and two heads certainly seemed more flawed than one in Drip's case), but you should at least read past days and try to remember things like that before making your ridiculous accusations.

If we lynch SSBF now, he's got a 0% chance to win, that I'll agree with. The flaw with the rest of your logic is that you assume he's a vanilla SK, while the potential for him to be scum is still entirely possible. Everyone's calling out that this game must be 4-4-1 or 3-3-1. What about 3-3-3? For all we know the Lannisters/Greyjoys are both on their last legs. I'm not familiar at all with the flavor (as I've expressed several times) so I'm not going to press speculation further than that, but your math is terrible since you can't account for any variables without knowing the setup.

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin: Why do you think that a three-scum factions team is more likely? Raivann was considered to be the scummiest person of Day 1, so I took care of him Night 1. I doubt it was killed by me Night 2 due to my gut read of him.

In compairisons, the other Night 1 and Night 2 kills sounds like they came out from the Greyjoy/Lannister's scum factions. Plus I personally think that a 4/4/1 anti-town faction is more likely then a 3/3/3, since I believe the latter would have scum overpower the town. What makes you think that the Night Kills of Raivann/I doubt it would come from a scum, not from a SK/Vigilante?

I never said it was more likely, I said it could be a possibility. The second question is somewhat moot; as I've mentioned, I'm not familiar with flavor, so the poisoning/drowning/hacking to bits doesn't give me any particular hints as to whether it's more likely that there's a third scum faction or a single SK/Vig.

3-3-3 Doubtful. Who, Stannis? Doubtful with a Melisandra fakeclaim. Loras flip rules out Highgarden/Renly.

The NK's also don't hint to this. Plus than a scum team could technically be knocked out D2 with all the killing possibilities.

I think 4-4-1 (Maybe 4-4 if we believe SSBF) is right because even tho the anti-town roles may be a bit heavy it is balanced with many evident town PR's and the chance of crosskilling.

See above statement about my unfamiliarity with the flavor content. I was simply positing that from what we know for certain, it's just as likely SSBF could be doing kills for a third faction as it is he's doing them for his own ends.

[Mikujin]

V/LA starting now

for most of the weekend. Gonna be out of town with a plane. Depending on where I get put up, I

might

have internet access, no promises. (Sorry 'bout the short notice; this job just got called in a few hours ago)

[Mikujin]

unvote
Vote unsight

Bigger wagon.

Do you ever stop pinballing between prospective lynches?

[Mikujin]

I'd also like to point this quote out:

@Lock: All you're doing is saying you have "results" that indicate Percy is "anti-town." Forgive my skepticism, but are you softclaiming cop? And if you are/are not, to what extent is Percy anti-town (scum/third-party)? I only make the inquiry because you seem to be holding your tongue, which hasn't exactly been your style in the past. (For instance: in the past you've usually made your case and voted right away, but not this time.)

This looks incredibly like trying to get Locke to give his results early so that Percy can have an out of some sort. It's incredibly scummy, especially because it's clear that Locke is going to explain after Percy came in and responded. It's something I just can't get past when looking back at today. What possible town reason could there be for this? I just simply don't know.
And you know what, it's enough to get me to move my vote.

unvote, vote: Mikujin

Please explain your reasoning for this, or point it out to me if you explained it before, as I didn't see it.

I've got my reasons; however, I'm not going to let you try and bully me into claiming just to answer your question. If you reread me well enough, and follow the trail, you'll see why I asked the question.

[Mikujin]

where did I say anything about claiming?

You never explicitly stated any such thing, but do alleviate the concerns you put forth regarding my interactions with Locke, I might have to reveal something I'd rather not.

As I said, I've done my best to drop some hints as to what my function is, and to what ends that may have directed my interactions with other players. I'm by no means a pro at "breadcrumbing" and whatnot, but I've done my best to do it. That's all I can really say on the matter for now.

[Mikujin]

/facepalm
ugh, I think I get what you're saying, but this was really not the best way of going about it.

Well, as the mod pointed out quite early there are at least a few people like myself who are rather... inexperienced, I guess. Was there a more tactful way I should've went about saying that?

[Mikujin]

/facepalm
ugh, I think I get what you're saying, but this was really not the best way of going about it.

Well, as the mod pointed out quite early there are at least a few people like myself who are rather... inexperienced, I guess. Was there a more tactful way I should've went about saying that?

we can go over this post-game. Now is a terrible time.

All right I guess. Either way, can't answer your question right now.

[Mikujin]

I really want to hear from Locke

After receiving my results, I am quite confident Locke won't have anything new to report. Excepting, of course, that my interpretation of things is correct. Everything about this assumption hinges on my being correct about how actions resolve. Lots of room to be wrong on that note, I'd assume.

Right now I'm looking to hear from Locke about his results before I delve any deeper into what I know. On the off-chance I'm correct in some of my assumptions, I know something that doesn't really do much for us moving forward, but can at least explain a few things. Don't know if I'd be ousting anyone else in the process, however.

xvart flipping Lannister means we're probably down one scumteam, though, if I'm not mistaken. Very easy to be wrong about this, of course, but we've seen three Lannister flips now. And with many theories thinking we're dealing with 3-3-?, using the double-lynch effectively is going to be top priority.

Really standing behind SSBF / CSL (again) today. The idea of trusting the SK while we potential damn two other town players isn't something I want to do; CSL is still about as useful as he has been in the past, and I'd have no qualms seeing him burn.

[Mikujin]

I'd love to say I've caught Theon Greyjoy...but I got no result instead.

Interested to hear how Mikujin is so sure of that.

Now that Vezo's out of the way, I'm ok with getting rid of SSBF, especially after his complete u-turn on the target (SSBF: if you were town convinced you'd caught scum in CSL, you wouldn't be deciding to vig Vezo instead). Quite pleased not to have to waste a lynch on that.

I've been keeping my eye on a few people.

Vote: CSL

in order to keep his votecount relatively close to SSBF.

[Mikujin]

On the off-chance I'm correct in some of my assumptions, I know something that doesn't really do much for us moving forward, but can at least explain a few things. Don't know if I'd be ousting anyone else in the process, however.

Mikujin, just answer one thing: do you think there's a high chance you've caught scum?

(I think I can guess where you're heading with this.) If you're putting two players in a likely 1 v. 1, you should probably claim. Otherwise, wait on it a little, since you'd either out a role or give scum advance warning on what information you have.

I've very little confidence in the information I have.

[Mikujin]

@Mikijun - if you have so little confidence in your info why did you bring it up? I'm not sure I see the town advantage here.

Because it kinda came up at the tail end of yesterday, and if I don't try to breadcrumb now, I'll not keep my pattern up properly. It may seem trite, but it's a rather committed effort.

On a related note, I'd also be satisfied with an SSBF/Axelrod scenario for today.

[Mikujin]

Mikujin:

This is what I would like to do: You have dropped enough "hints" that anyone who is 1/2 way paying attention is going to be assuming you have an information role. Basically, there's no real reason to keep this in the closet if there is anything at all to be gained from it, but the best way (imo) is to go slowly.

First:

If you "saw" xvart (Cersei - Roleblocker) target Locke last Night, which would obviously explain why you said you didn't exect Locke to have any results, I think you should confirm/deny at this point. That's all you should say. Then, depending on the answer there might be some follow-up questions that are worth asking. For example, your hint also suggests you might have seen

other

people targeting Locke last Night besides xvart, and if this is the case, and depending on the

number

of other people (and who they were - which you shouldn't be revealing), there might be some useful info. there.

Rolefishing, eh?

I've already said

exactly

what I saw, you're just not looking hard enough.

[Mikujin]

Picking up a prod.

I've been keeping an eye on things, just haven't had anything to add.

[Mikujin]

I'll be leaving you guys in the capable hands of Faraday for a little while. I'm off to go get married and then have a nice tropical honeymoon. Should be back in fortnight. Good hunting.

Congrats.

[Mikujin]

Unvote
Vote Axelrod

To make sure there's a clear-cut first/second for the day.

[Mikujin]

Man, I rookie'd things up pretty amazingly, but this game was one of the most fun I've ever been in. Totally satisfied with the joint win end-game. I was nail-biting all through the night phase, sweating it out to see if either scum would off the other, instead. Totally would play another in the future.