A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Unsight]

vote: Drippereth

He's not scum hunting, he's just painting people as scummy.

[Unsight]

Oooooooh, I HAVE A NICE FIND.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#2189675

Irrelavent to the game. I know DrippingGoofball plays a lot more randomly then this, but if you're going to contribute to the game, PLEASE use evidence from this game. This isn't contributing.

unvote. vote: SSBF

Richard needs to explain why he would even mention a policy lynch despite his avid disliking of them as of 3 months ago. SSBF probably needs to die.

[Unsight]

Unsight, why is SSBF worse than Richard here?

Mentioning the words "policy lynch" isn't scummy, taboo, or even FoS-worthy on its own. Richard's change of stance on them can be explained by him being scum but time is a factor. If he had made that post yesterday, then it would be a very drastic shift in perception. The fact that it's 3 months old now means he should explain it, but it's not necessarily reliable as a scum tell and certainly not on its own.

SSBF's extreme reaction to Eliball's post is another matter. Showing that someone is playing differently than their norm can be very relevant and calling that post irrelevant before Richard even answers to it can have many meanings... many scummy ones. Also, if you look at SSBF's ISO, you'll see that post is one of the most aggressive posts in there. That link really rubbed him the wrong way. He was either distancing Eliball or protecting Richard.

[Unsight]

Defindently

unraise

. I have a few pro-town reads now.

We have a question.

Who would be in favor of raising the Drippereth hydra? Who would be against? Please explain your decision.

I'll be in favor of raising you. Like others said, you have been playing very well. Although

I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead

, you're not a bad choice either.

The same MacavityLock who suddenly perked up when I vote you but still manages to put you in his dislikes? You scum buddies are funny.

[Unsight]

As far as I'm concerned you're all scum atm.

? Everyone is scum? That's news to me.

You seem to have adopted not only hydra heads but also a spaghetti case syndrome where you're throwing accusations at everything in site save the damned mod!

I really don't see this at all. Kleedrac is exaggerating a lot of stuff, and it's beginning to look like flailing to me.
That's about all I could find.

I get a gut read of scum on Kleedrac, but since I haven't played with him before, I have no idea if it's enough to merit a vote.

Wouldn't it be better for everyone if you stopped pretending to be a newbie?

[Unsight]

4)

Wouldn't it be better for everyone if you stopped pretending to be a newbie?

Um...you realize that dana is saying in that quote he doesn't have experience

with Kleedrac

and not with the game overall? After days of not posting, that throwaway line in a post of a player you're not even voting is the only thing you thought was worth commenting on?

You know what, I'm going to try something different.

Vote: Unsight

. You seem like you're trying to look active, but you're just picking at minor points.

danakillsu has played in about 25+ games on mafiascum.net, has a gut read of scum on someone, but says he's not voting that person because he has no experience with said player instead of something definitive like "this wagon is better" or "I don't see the case on him." I have no experience with danakillsu but I can easily go find a couple of his 20-something games and get experience with him because I'm not lazy in my scum hunting. Also, it was a lame way to acknowledge the wagon without boarding it or resisting it. Laundering is my new favorite word these days.

And yes, I attack people I'm not voting. I have one vote and there are many scum. Just because I find one and vote him doesn't mean I stop all scumhunting to tunnel on him. And FWIW, I've already found two scum buddies. What have you done?

[Unsight]

I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with, but does not appear to be following up on players at all. Mina picked up on a similar thing here - it seems a bit like he/she? is spotting one scummy thing, declaring that player to be scum and then moving on. The lack of content doesn't help this, obviously, but I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy.

Vote: Unsight

I'd back a lynch on any of the above, but Unsight seems to me to be the most likely scum trying to coast, firing off some good points but not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking.

"does not appear to be following up on players at all"
"I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy"
"not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking"

My original vote for SSBF was based on the idea that SSBF was defending him by attacking Eliball (uncharacteristic of his ISO) and later reinforced by MacavityLock's odd treatment of him. These aren't things that SSBF can explain away to my satisfaction. It was and still is true that if RichardGHP flips scum, it's pretty likely they all will. However, RichardGHP's claim is very believable and his play so far has been consistent with his play in Mafia 110 even to the point of almost being lynched and claiming Day 1. That rules out scum buddying scum but not scum buddying town. It also leaves MacavityLock's odd treatment of SSBF. To this point MacavityLock is still slinging mud at SSBF asking people to convince him but without following it up with a vote. Again, this isn't something SSBF can explain away and MacavityLock isn't going to come out and say "Gee folks, I sure am distancing pretty hard."

I wasn't being quiet because I was coasting or lacked "genuine interest," I was very interested. I just wasn't shouting out questions as the information was already being provided by MacavityLock. There's also the fact that RichardGHP was a terrific wagon I didn't have a strong read on prior to the claim with a potentially informative scumflip--made it better to let the wagon run its course while I looked at the people on the wagon.

I'm doing more reading than writing but I'm definitely not disinterested nor coasting. If you have questions, ask away.


"I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with"

Thanks for this at least.

[Unsight]

It's all very well to say you haven't been doing these things but, unsurprisingly, I can't read your mind. All I get to see is you saying 'that's scummy!' and then going quiet for a while until you spot someone else doing something scummy.

In any case, as you asked so nicely, I'd like to know what you think of the two main trends right now, namely:
1. The Kleedrac lynch
2. Percy for Hand of the King

"1. The Kleedrac lynch"

I have mixed thoughts on it.

ISO 3 is bad and ISO 10 is scummy. Sudden tunneling on his attacker is a bad sign as well however Drippereth did misrep Kleedrac's stance on Richard here so it's not wholly OMGUS. Even then, I don't see him scumhunting. Say he's right and Drippereth is scum, that still leaves plenty others and he's not actually looking for any of

them

.

There are really only two reasons I haven't been on his wagon. The first was that he's a newbie. It's fairly common for scum in Newbie games to go after easy lynches because they won't put up a fight and often shoot themselves in the foot under little pressure. It's no different here where we have mixed skill levels. Ironically, Kleedrac killed this sentiment himself in this post recently. The second reason is that SSBF is a better lynch. I believe SSBF's flip will reflect very heavily on MacavityLock. Kleedrac's flip really only says something about the people on the Kleedrac wagon.


"2. Percy for Hand of the King "

I don't really think Hand of the King is that important in itself. It's just a good way to get a sense of peoples' town reads and my read on Percy is a weak one at best.

I agree with his opinions on Raivann and CMAR, but lots of little things bother me about his posts. He keeps making good points about CMAR only to wander away. He side-swipes Axelrod with a buddying accusation to CMAR and then never comes back to it. Neither CMAR nor Axel make his top 3 vote list (Hayker, Mig, and Vezo) and Axel is almost off the radar in ISO 7.

The other things that bug me are the people he's addressing or rather not addressing. He hasn't really thrown any hard questions at Cow, Drippereth, Benmage, or me. He also hasn't even mentioned CCA. Making large walls of text to address just about everyone in the game but leaving certain ones more or less out seems intentionally selective.

[Unsight]

CATCHING UP!

Call me a sucker, but I believe Kleedrac here. He seems to be genuinely pissed.

Scum can be genuinely pissed too. Anyway, I recall thinking you were scum somewhere earlier but I forgot why. I'll figure it out later.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

SSBF: Disagree
Magna: Agree

Miku is prob town.
dana is town.
lynchme is to.

ah bleh, barely anything's changed.
Kleedrac still needs to die.

No comment on my blurb about Percy ignoring you in 499?

Percy ignores Drippereth.

Drippereth ignores Percy.


Blatant buddying is scummy as hell and makes my skin crawl.

[Unsight]

@Unsight: Despite having a vote on me, you've never really made a counter-response to a post early in the game (Will link if necessary). Your most direct reactions were your vote on me and basically saying that me and MacavityLock were scum buddies. Why do you not choose to counter-respond to that post if you think I'm your top suspect?

Your "response" was to say you don't see what I was saying. Scum aren't going to see why they're scummy. You're obviously not going to admit to being scum and vote yourself so I'm not really interested in a back and forth with you that will end in the exact same place it started.

Are Percy and Drippereth town?

[Unsight]

@Unsight

: What do you make of SSBF's defence of Benmage?

I read it as scum buddying town.

Post 356 where Drippereth gives SSBF a hearty slap on the back for it is much, much more interesting to me.

[Unsight]

Not enough time to reread everything and comment tonight. Will be back tomorrow.

[Unsight]

WHAAAAAA I'M STILL CAUGHT BY MARATHON CAP LOCKS FEVER.
ALL I WANT TO SAY RIGHT NOW IS THAT RAI IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE TOWN THAN KLEEDRAC!

Please elaborate.

[Unsight]

Question: How many people at this point would be willing to lynch me today?

I'm not. I think your play is on par with Mafia 110 and your claim is believable. I think most of the people who still want to lynch you need to go read your ISO from 110.

[Unsight]

Hi all. Yesterday night, and into early morning, I have re-read this game. However, I did forget to write down notes, so I'm going to just try to remember what my reads were. Here goes.

TOWN READS

Percy
Drippereth
Richard (claim believable)
Mina

SCUM READS

Kleedrac (Richard's claim is believable, so this guy looks scum)
Deer (He quit, and I have a scumread on him anyway)
danakillsu (Not been doing a good job, lately. I want to see him scumhunt a bit more)

Everyone else is either a neutral read, or lurkerscumbag


So, the following is as follows

VOTE: Kleedrac

Raise: Percy

Analyzing Kleedrac's 12 posts...

1: First post was random, but he was the first one to raise himself.

3: A case on CMAR. I do have a slight suspicion of CMAR, and a scumread on Kleedrac, and votes him. Also comes up with an excuse as to why he wasn't posting.

4: He didn't find anything scummy about Richard, while everyone and their grandmother were wanting his death at the time. SCUMMY.

5: Quotes Drippereth, and plays the clueless card. SCUMMY.

6: "Everyone else is scum" VERY SCUMMY.

7: Says again that CMAR is scum. Calls Drippereth on bad logic when everything they say is logic. SCUMMY

8: Don't assume all are scum. Your wish could come true in some game.

10: I SEE AN OMGUS VOTE! EXTRA SCUM POINTS FOR YOU!!!

11: Plays the newbie card. Scummy.

12: And after all that he did not answer anything.

Conclusion:

Distancing and OMGUS votes are scum strategies that this guy didn't close up all the way. This guy is scum. CASE CLOSED. Why the hell isn't he lynched yet?

As part of scum hunting, I analyze posts and then I vote someone. The analysis part comes before the vote part because it's how I know I'm voting scum.

CSL did the exact opposite here. He votes Kleedrac and then analyzes Kleedrac's ISO.

FoS CSL

[Unsight]

@Unsight

: Could you explain to me why, when Mina

votes Raivann

and then explained it

three days later

, this was not worthy of notice, but when CSL adopts the vote-then-case approach with Kleedrac, it's worth a FoS?

I saw one but not the other.

I don't like how you loaded that question with the assumption that I saw both and ignored one. That's pretty scummy--goes back to the difference between finding scum and painting scum I attacked Drippereth with in the very beginning.

[Unsight]

SSBF was town with that massive wagon analsys post from way back when..
I think CMAR's away sitewide but I remember thinking he was town.
Kleedrac wagon evaporation makes me sad. There's prob scum on this jump onto CMAR.
Oh wait let me check old votecounts.

SSBF makes giant wall'o'text posts regardless of alignment. That wagon analysis is a null tell.

[Unsight]

@Drip - Just double-checked. I could have sworn there was a mafiascum.net game where he was scum and not just the Smash World one. Here's a page where you can see his play as scum in that game though.

[Unsight]

@Unsight

: Now that you've seen it, what do you think of it?
Also, I think it's odd to criticise the order in which a case was presented without commenting on the substantive matter of the case itself, which is another reason I asked.

I'm not getting the same scumvibes from it as from CSL's and here's why:
- Mina wasn't jumping onto a large wagon.
- Mina said in the first post that reasons were coming (implying they were there pre-vote).
- Mina's reasoning was more than an ISO number listing with a "yeah, that's scummy" next to most of them.

I comment on lots of odd things. The "how" and "why" are more important to me than the "what."

[Unsight]

Why are all the votes shifting to someone who is most probably town?

This is idiotic.

RichardGHP shouldn't be lynched just because apparently Ser Loras can vig someone on his behalf. He should live so the scum have to waste a nightkill on him.

[Unsight]

Why are all the votes shifting to someone who is most probably town?

It's a best worst case scenario. Why do you think Richard is town?
Do you think SSBF should be the lynch for the day?
Also, I think scum would be very reluctant to shoot Richard. What do the scum gain by choosing him as an NK target?

I've already said why I think he's town--his play mirrors his town play in Mafia 110 and his claim is highly believable.

I would loooooove for SSBF to be the lynch for the day but apparently my ideas don't get steam unless they're restated with 5 times as many words like Julienvonwolfe did here.

I also think scum would be very reluctant to shoot Richard. That's win/win to me. We get a vengeance kill or a confirmed townie for the game.

[Unsight]

I don't have much time to post so this is just a speed run of my thoughts having just read the last couple pages.

SSBF is still scummy and still worth lynching. VOTE: SSBF

The Vezo case has merit. Not sure if Vezo is scum, but his play is anti-town and hard for me to read.

Percy's Drippereth case deserves a full read by everyone. It's very good and I would support a Drippereth lynch based on it (mostly because it's something I'd have done if I had more time and someone else hadn't already done it).

I'll reread dana in light of the night's flips in the next day or two.

Also, I recommend everyone not only read who protected the late scum but who attacked the late townies. I will when I get time.

[Unsight]

So I got a prod and that means I need to come back and find more scum so here you go:

LynchMePls is more town than all the players I've ever declared to be townies. And that's never going to change. So he gets the green.

LynchMePls is scum. He hops on the RichardGHP wagon shortly after 2 different posts saying he believes RichardGHP's claim. He hops on the Raivann wagon at the very tail end when it was almost certain Raivann was going to be the lynch and then goes back to RichardGHP as fast as possible (with his very next post).

LynchMePls also works with Drippereth to fight the Raivann wagon directly here. In fact, rereading LMP's ISO with regards to Drippereth is very interesting overall. I recommend it to everyone.

UNVOTE: SSBF
VOTE: LynchMePls

I'm still fine with a SSBF lynch but the Raivann <-> LynchMePls <-> Drippereth connection really is

that

good.

[Unsight]

I was in the middle of a post when I hit preview to find the thread locked for the event. I saved my post in a text file somewhere so I'm going to go find it. Expect something soon-ish.

[Unsight]

And how do you feel about Dana, or vezo Unsight?

Life is good as I have free time again. Let me look at the dana wagon...

Percy - Percy's note that danakillsu was attempting to derail the Raivann wagon the most is spot-on. Drippereth is a close second with LMP coming in third.
Thor665 - Basically ditto's Percy.
Mikujin - Also ditto's Percy.
Axelrod - Similar to Percy's case but also points out flippage on RichardGHP (similar to LynchMePls actually).
RichardGHP - Reasonless vote. I have this theory that scum hunting ceases the moment someone becomes obv town...
xvart - xvart is great. He spotted what almost looks like a scumslip by danakillsu's ISO 15.
LynchMePls - This is the guy who raised danakillsu in his first post. Votes to "get some team cohesion going" but has been spending his time making SSBF and CSL cases. Can someone say "BUS BUS BUS BUS BUS!"
Vezokpiraka - No reasoning? Why is Vezo voting dana?
Benmage - Again no reasoning. Why is Benmage voting dana?
CSL - Votes to see if he's telling the truth about his claim. What?

It's really easy to see the people actually putting a case forward versus the blatant wagon-ers especially toward the end.

I will support a danakillsu lynch, but not until the last 3 people explain what they're doing and why. Also, LMP is still scum.


Vezo is uber anti-town. He's just awful. I'd mention the p word but there are very scummy people who need lynching first.

[Unsight]

"Pot, meet kettle."

Not really. The only thing I would have added to the discussion was added by xvart (the oddity in ISO 15).

"A yes or no question - do you find vezo scummy?"

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

[Unsight]

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then? You go out of your way to bring him up, describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently not finding him scummy, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. If there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

Anti-town and scummy are not synonymous. Also, perhaps if you read my ISO you would be able to answer your own questions. So far I've indicated SSBF with MacCavityLock based on the flip as well as dana, drip, and LMP based on reactions to the Raivann wagon yesterday.

Your entire post very much looks like either you haven't ISO'd me to actually know my thoughts so far, you're deliberately attempting to misrep me, or both.

[Unsight]

ATTENTION UNSIGHT –

You seem perfectly willing to ignore questions directly put to you.

I'm not ignoring anyone. I just had the unfortunate timing to be making my catchup post(s) at the exact time the thread was being locked for the event.

While you are addressing whatever open questions LMP has for you also please comment and answer regarding the following –

You’ve already previously indicated you think Percy and DripHydra were buddying scum at your ISO 8 and infer that SSBF also is a scum partner to Drip at ISO 10. At ISO 21 you apparently reverse course on Percy being a DripHydra scum-partner and praise Percy’s case as something you would support Drip’s lynch based on. You haven’t mentioned LynchMe before this post at all. You’ve stated on multiple occasions that you suspect Drip to be scum. Why didn’t you vote Drip based on your longstanding suspicion based on this paring? Especially given the suspicion his slot has drawn from multiple other sources.

The short answer is that I didn't vote Drippereth because I was voting SSBF. The long answer is that I prefer lynches that provide stronger reflection. Given more than one suspect, I prefer to lynch the one that yields the most information.

Also, I did not mention LMP prior to the post in which I did for two reasons: First, I did not have time to fully analyze the previous day with flips at the time of my first post on Day 2 (something I mention in the post itself). Obviously my case on SSBF was and is unchanged from Day 1 however. Second, the evidence against LMP (Raivann flip + wagon analysis + Ser Loras flip) was not available until Day 2 and not available to me until I reread which I did between the linked post and my next one.

[Unsight]

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then?

You

go out of your way to bring him up,

describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently

not

finding him scummy

, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. If there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

Anti-town and scummy are not synonymous.

I am well aware of this, please refer to my post where I bolded and underlined the relevant statements. I agree that anti-town and scummy are two different things and made it clear in my commentary that I understood this and accurately represented what it was you said.

Also, perhaps if you read my ISO you would be able to answer your own questions. So far I've indicated SSBF with MacCavityLock based on the flip as well as dana, drip, and LMP based on reactions to the Raivann wagon yesterday.

I see no problem with me asking you to restate your suspicions from time to time for my personal clarity's sake. Why do you find it unreasonable?

Your entire post very much looks like either you haven't ISO'd me to actually know my thoughts so far, you're deliberately attempting to misrep me, or both.

I believe I addressed both accusations and will now dismiss them fully with a hearty belly laugh - HAH HAH!

I'll also note in your counter attack on me you didn't actually answer the question I posed to you - why the soft sell attack on Vezo if you don't want him lynched and have a list of roughly three people to lynch prior to him? I don't care for soft selling because it appears you're trying to strengthen a case without actually weighing in on it. The fact dana has now taken up the vezo case continues to give me jitters in that regard.

"Why do you find it unreasonable?"

I just find it more annoying than unreasonable. I would rather be spending my time rereading ISO's, looking for more scum, and finding more connections than restating my suspicions especially since I make it a point to be transparent with them so my ISO is highly readable.

"you didn't actually answer the question I posed to you"

Maybe I'm not sure what kind of answer you want. I'm in two games with vezo. In both games he's unhelpful, wagons shamelessly, gives no reasons for voting, and basically contributes nothing to the discussion... and I believe that's his town playstyle. If I didn't have a laundry list of people I'm fairly certain are scum then I would be pressing him harder and, as it stands, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I asked him in this post.

[Unsight]

Unless I missed something, you never answered my question to you..

I looked in your ISO and found this:

would you rather the "blatant wagoners" made a case that was exactly the same as someone else's?

Of course not, however their reason is important because they need to explain why the person is vote-worthy now as opposed to the wagon started. For example, if someone is going to ditto Percy's case right now, they need to explain why they weren't willing to ditto it a week ago. Obviously something had to have changed in that time period.

[Unsight]

The long answer is that I prefer lynches that provide stronger reflection. Given more than one suspect, I prefer to lynch the one that yields the most information.

And yet you don’t explain how lynching LMP will provide more information than a DripHydra lynch. Especially since you’ve linked Drip to several players but LMP only to Drip.

You answer your first sentence with your second sentence. I believe we have two scum teams but I don't believe all my suspects are on the same one. I can see Dana and LMP being on a team with Raivann and I can see SSBF and MacCavityLock being on a team. I can see Drip being with SSBF or Raivann.

Looks more like a distancing tactic. You repeatedly mention your suspicions of Drip but never move at all to act on them. Scummy.

You need to realize that my repeatedly mentioning my suspicions of Drip is my way of acting on them. I have a single vote so I pick one of my suspects that yields good information on flip and vote them, but I don't stop talking about the other people I think are scum nor do I stop looking for the rest of the scum. I don't keep mentioning Drip because I'm distancing, I keep mentioning him because I'm suspicious of him and, up until Percy made his case, I was one of the few even talking about him.

[Unsight]

@Unsight

:

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then?

You

go out of your way to bring him up,

describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently

not

finding him scummy

, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. If there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

Anti-town and scummy are not synonymous.

I am well aware of this, please refer to my post where I bolded and underlined the relevant statements. I agree that anti-town and scummy are two different things and made it clear in my commentary that I understood this and accurately represented what it was you said.

I'm quoting this because I'd really like you to answer the original question. Whilst anti-town and scum are not the same thing, they

are

correlated; at the moment, the tactical interpretation of this read is the only one that is clear to me.

Copy/Paste.

"you didn't actually answer the question I posed to you"

Maybe I'm not sure what kind of answer you want. I'm in two games with vezo. In both games he's unhelpful, wagons shamelessly, gives no reasons for voting, and basically contributes nothing to the discussion... and I believe that's his town playstyle. If I didn't have a laundry list of people I'm fairly certain are scum then I would be pressing him harder and, as it stands, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I asked him in this post.

[Unsight]

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then? You go out of your way to bring him up, describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently not finding him scummy, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. I

f there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

Anti-town and scummy are not synonymous. Also, perhaps if you read my ISO you would be able to answer your own questions. So far I've indicated SSBF with MacCavityLock based on the flip

as well as dana,

drip, and LMP based on reactions to the Raivann wagon yesterday.

If you want dana lynched, and he's the leading wagon...why the hell aren't ya voting him?

That post was made 8 days before the deadline and would have put dana at L-1 (IIRC). I have no interest in seeing the day cut short when there's plenty to talk about. For example, you responded to my above post but not the post where I asked for your reasoning in voting dana.

I'll ask again for clarity: What made you vote for dana? Specifically, your vote was over a week after the first vote on dana so what convinced you dana was scum in between Percy's first vote and yours?

[Unsight]

If you want dana lynched, and he's the leading wagon...why the hell aren't ya voting him?

That post was made 8 days before the deadline and would have put dana at L-1 (IIRC). I have no interest in seeing the day cut short when there's plenty to talk about.

It’s now 2 days til deadline. Is your suggestion that you support a dana lynch just fence-sitting since your vote is not on him?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

That is, you're using the phrase "fence-sitting" incorrectly. Fence-sitting is when you have two positions on a subject and someone chooses to take neither of them. Since you are on neither side of the fence, you are effectively sitting on the fence.

This doesn't apply to my position of Dana as I have said a couple times now that I support a Dana lynch. I have clearly taken a position. What I have not done is rush the day. I could have voted Dana a week ago and put him at L-1. Doing so brings the day one vote closer to its end and doesn't help me scum hunt. Conversely, I can vote and pressure other suspects, extend the day to continue scumhunting, and still vote dana at a later time which is win/win/win for the town.

Now, your saying that "just fence-sitting since your vote is not on him" is spectacularly stupid logic. By that logic, everyone with a suspect they're not voting for is fence-sitting. You attempted a similarly poor argument regarding my suspicion on Drip where you attempted to say my not voting him meant I was distancing him which I swiftly responded to and now you're doing it again.

Did you not learn anything from that response? Let me spell it out for you: You can pressure people with your vote, you can pressure people without a vote, and you can even be suspicious of people other than the single person you are voting for.


Now, the deadline is in 2 days and I usually go V/LA over the weekend which means I may not be here for it. I'm happy with a Dana lynch and I'll put my vote next to it.

VOTE: danakillsu

[Unsight]

Step Forward

I'm glad Baltar hydra'd into MacCavityLock's slot. Despite his habit of mangling quotes, he's far more direct in his buddying with SSBF as evidenced in his trying to convince the dayvig to shoot vezo or, rather, not shoot SSBF.

Also:

Or you can do the smart thing and either confirm or condemn some cannon fodder. Regardless of Percy's alignment, scum aren't going to want him around (WIFOM). He's not lynchable and he has two votes. Therefore, he's a threat. Why don't we let the scum take care of him? The smarter move in this situation is to investigate someone who appears scummy and is a perennial lynch candidate (SSBF for example). If he gets confirmed as town, then the scum have to kill him, thus saving better scum hunters for later in the game. If he's scum, well booya. Somehow I doubt that you don't see the optimum town strategy in this situation and are still town. You're really starting to worry me benmage.

This quote reveals two things. The first is that Baltar is actually trying to bank on scum actions which is never a good sign. The second is that Baltar doesn't want SSBF lynched. If Vezo is dayvigged then the natural lynch goes to SSBF. Baltar is already looking ahead to SSBF being investigated despite having just said this in the previous post:

Well, this is the MacavityLock portion of the hydra signing off, and passing the torch to Baltar for now. My biggest scum reads:
vezo and SSBF - Same basic reasons as yesterday.
CSL - Coming down on Mina for the non-hammer of dana. Mina's action wasn't scummy then, and pointing it out as scummy and setting up Mina makes perfect sense if CSL is dana's scumbuddy.

So Baltar, why are you listing SSBF as one of your biggest scum reads but pushing to not have him dayvigged and also planning not to lynch him?

FWIW, I called the SSBF/MacCavityLock shenanigans on day 1:

Defindently

unraise

. I have a few pro-town reads now.

We have a question.

Who would be in favor of raising the Drippereth hydra? Who would be against? Please explain your decision.

I'll be in favor of raising you. Like others said, you have been playing very well. Although

I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead

, you're not a bad choice either.

The same MacavityLock who suddenly perked up when I vote you but still manages to put you in his dislikes? You scum buddies are funny.

You scum buddies are still funny.

VOTE: SSBF

[Unsight]

Really? You'd rather investigate someone scummy than someone that's hard to read and a ton of people are unsure about? That's slightly bizarre, IMO.

If we investigate a person that is hard to read and turns up town, we would end up wasting an investigate that could be used on people that the majority suspect, which would yield more information. Not only that, the scum would have to kill that townie that the majority previously suspected. It helps town more to investigate someone scummy then someone with a null read.

LOGIC ERROR
DOES NOT COMPUTE
correct play is

never

investigate someone scummy. Would you like me to explain further? I can, but it just seems so obvious.

I'd like you to explain further.

Investigating someone scummy is good for four reasons:

1) If town then it saves the town from a mislynch that most certainly would have happened.
2) If town then it adds to the pool of hard-to-lynch/pro-town people--I'd rather move a townie from the very easy lynch pool to the very hard lynch pool than middle to hard because it makes it harder for scum.
3) Scummy people are scummy in the first place for a reason. Investigating the scummiest means you're most likely to catch scum.
4) Scummy people are least likely to be NK'd because scum want them around for mislynching during the day.

Light a candle for: hasdgfas

I would also support lighting a candle for Macavitar.

@mod:

Is this the same reveal as the role cop reveal mentioned with the Stepforward thing or a different one?

Mod ~ Correct. You step forwarded to nominate yourselves for the investigation. Lighting/Dousing is basically Vote/Unvote with flavour and separation from the lynch.

[Unsight]

Can we like, take Vezo's vote away or something?

Tomorrow. With Thor's wolfy.

Cow was the best one to make holy.

(Gonna go iso SSBF)

Why are you "gonna go iso SSBF" now? I go ISO people after a flip because it's new information with which to read their posts and there's usually a new perspective to gauge their comments. Saying you're "gonna go iso" the main wagon out of the blue makes it seem like you haven't actually been paying attention to that person.

[Unsight]

Rifka, why did you light a candle for yourself?

For the WIFOM value?

Actually, i was curious to see if magnaofillusion would actually follow up on that suspicion of me, but didnt make the slightest effort to do so. Reading his ISO, he seems to have an entirely reactionary playing, sharply making points on posts throughout the game, but never seeming to actually initiate attacks(my perception anyway) difficult player for me getting a read on... Plus, being confirmed=sit back and have a lemonade in the shade as far as defending goes

Im pretty sure i know what the follow up responses to this^ will be(im cynical like that), but ill let you state it in your own words

Are you reading the same game as I am? Magna initiated two attacks on me and followed up with a vote. If you were actually reading his ISO, you should have seen those immediately.

Also, what value is there for the town in meaningless WIFOM? Who are you helping with that? If you're pro-town then it's in your best interest to scan someone who might be scum, not generate meaningless WIFOM and play for town cred. That's scum behavior.

[Unsight]

Can we like, take Vezo's vote away or something?

Tomorrow. With Thor's wolfy.

Cow was the best one to make holy.

(Gonna go iso SSBF)

Why are you "gonna go iso SSBF" now? I go ISO people after a flip because it's new information with which to read their posts and there's usually a new perspective to gauge their comments. Saying you're "gonna go iso" the main wagon out of the blue makes it seem like you haven't actually been paying attention to that person.

I said I have to go back and read him several times. You wait until someone dies? So you have perfect reads of everyone living? Oh wait, than why would you have to go back and read them when they die...conundrum. I've been meaning to look at him for awhile, but I keep putting my attention elsewhere. With the growing wagon on him he seems to be a boosted priority.

Where do you feel you've spent the majority of your attention?

[Unsight]

@Unsight

, do you iso living players?

Of course. I usually do so right after day begins if I have time and especially so if there's relevant new information (such as a scumflip). That said, I don't need to run out and ISO someone when they get a wagon like you apparently do. So what are your pre-ISO thoughts on SSBF? Do you have any?

[Unsight]

Are you reading the same game as I am? Magna initiated two attacks on me and followed up with a vote. If you were actually reading his ISO, you should have seen those immediately.

I disagree...the ''attacks'' on you were more responsive in nature, i feel...and thats fine, its a style. When i think of attack i think of percy wall post on d2 starting, thats not a violent reaction to a scummy post, but a heavy push.

Moving the goal posts is a mighty convenient way of backpedaling.

[Unsight]

@Unsight,

You iso everyone as soon as a new day occurs?

In smaller games, definitely.

In larger games, I ISO the dead, followed by my suspects, followed by whoever else I can fit in. Time is the only limiting factor. Sometimes I can do everyone, sometimes it's only the first six people. No reason not to if I have the opportunity.

[Unsight]

I shouldn't give players like MoI and Macavitar alibis before answering my questions.

What questions are those exactly? I don't see any addressed directly to me. If you're referring to why I would switch to hascow over Mikujin, well I think that by the time I switched it was self-evident that hascow's investigation was going to happen either way. May as well speed things up. I think you said something about people not arguing for other targets, but I stated pretty clearly why I felt Mikujin was a good investigation target. If the mass of town doesn't want to follow that, so be it. The reasoning was provided. Second, I stated way earlier that hascow was an acceptable investigation to me. If the town was going there regardless of what I said, then I'm not going to waste my time typing out a huge post that isn't going to mean anything anyhow. Mikujin still looks scummy to me, but we'll just have to lynch him straight up now.

Also, I asked you the question about white knighting in other games...not diddin I'll review them as soon as I get some time.

The answer ends up being WIFOM no matter how I answer it (coulda-woulda-shoulda).

95% of this game is WIFOM. Stop dodging questions and freaking answer them. Hope you are noting all of this sidestepping Mina. I honestly don't see how I could be highlighting Miku's scummy behavior anymore than I already am.

"Hope you are noting all of this sidestepping Mina."

What is the purpose of addressing Mina specifically here?

[Unsight]

@Unsight,

You iso everyone as soon as a new day occurs?

In smaller games, definitely.

In larger games, I ISO the dead, followed by my suspects, followed by whoever else I can fit in. Time is the only limiting factor. Sometimes I can do everyone, sometimes it's only the first six people. No reason not to if I have the opportunity.

Ah yes time is always the problem.

Let us review: You complain about me going to iso SSBF, simply because you as a subjective person prefer to iso at the start of the day, giving time constraints. And would in an ideal situation iso everyone. Starting with dead to prime suspects and so on and so forth.

Now I said my attention has been elsewhere, but that I have been meaning to/wanting to iso SSBF. Sounds like a time issue on my side, no?

Now as we, who are constrained by time, finally get free moments we must choose how to best use our time to be most advantageous. Would not a rolling wagon on someone one has desired to refer to be a good use of this time?

If it we were just starting Day 2. Midway through Day 3, not so much. It's reasonable that you would have a read on SSBF that doesn't require an immediate ISO. That's what makes it problematic. Saying "gonna go iso him" now sounds like you were ignoring him up until now.

[Unsight]

What is the purpose of addressing Mina specifically here?

She was addressing him.... These side questions of yours Unsight seem without purpose.

He was talking to Miku and pointing it out to Mina.

[Unsight]

The Opening reasoning as to why I currently do not think SSBF will be todays lynch.

(Note this is part of a grand process)

The person you paid so little attention to that you had to go ISO them only because they're now the main wagon, you don't want to lynch. Shocking.

[Unsight]

The Opening reasoning as to why I currently do not think SSBF will be todays lynch.

(Note this is part of a grand process)

The person you paid so little attention to that you had to go ISO them only because they're now the main wagon, you don't want to lynch. Shocking.

Let's not play Cat n Mouse Unsight. What is shocking? Do not be subtle in your next post.

Where do you think my motives are?

What alignment do you believe me to be?

This is what bothers me:

I don't wanna lynch CSL, and I'd have to review SSBF before committing there.

Re-reading I doubt it, I find it nearly impossible for SSBF to be a Lannister.

I think he's a Greyjoy, as shown by his reluctance to vote Raivann and just his overall scumminess.

Oooooo see, I didn't reread SSBF yet and I do recall oddness with this(people talking about it). Good point.

(Gonna go iso SSBF)

I see a pattern of you pushing against lynching him and of saying you haven't read him. That's why I pressed regarding your ISO post. A week later and you still haven't read him? Really?

As for your motives and alignment, I haven't had a scum read on you but your treatment of him looks a lot like Scum/Scum or Scum/Town.

[Unsight]

In conclusion I’m not sure that I have any better a feel for Unsight as either scum-team. He made zero interactions with Raivann Day 1 and did threw some mild accusations towards Percy without following up on them at all. Day 1 Unsight also made some early accusations against dana that let nowhere. Day 2 changes opinion on Percy 180 degrees and has to be dragged kicking in screaming to the dana wagon. I could see Unsight as either alignment.

My only alignment is Town (or Innocent as my role pm puts it) so your vote on me is catching no scum.

My point to dana was the result of something I saw while reading his meta--this post is where he admits to a newbie playstyle. I figured I'd call him on it early and see what he did.

As for the dana wagon as a whole, let me quote my response to you so you might actually read it this time:

If you want dana lynched, and he's the leading wagon...why the hell aren't ya voting him?

That post was made 8 days before the deadline and would have put dana at L-1 (IIRC). I have no interest in seeing the day cut short when there's plenty to talk about.

It’s now 2 days til deadline. Is your suggestion that you support a dana lynch just fence-sitting since your vote is not on him?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

That is, you're using the phrase "fence-sitting" incorrectly. Fence-sitting is when you have two positions on a subject and someone chooses to take neither of them. Since you are on neither side of the fence, you are effectively sitting on the fence.

This doesn't apply to my position of Dana as I have said a couple times now that I support a Dana lynch. I have clearly taken a position. What I have not done is rush the day. I could have voted Dana a week ago and put him at L-1. Doing so brings the day one vote closer to its end and doesn't help me scum hunt. Conversely, I can vote and pressure other suspects, extend the day to continue scumhunting, and still vote dana at a later time which is win/win/win for the town.

Now, your saying that "just fence-sitting since your vote is not on him" is spectacularly stupid logic. By that logic, everyone with a suspect they're not voting for is fence-sitting. You attempted a similarly poor argument regarding my suspicion on Drip where you attempted to say my not voting him meant I was distancing him which I swiftly responded to and now you're doing it again.

Did you not learn anything from that response? Let me spell it out for you: You can pressure people with your vote, you can pressure people without a vote, and you can even be suspicious of people other than the single person you are voting for.


Now, the deadline is in 2 days and I usually go V/LA over the weekend which means I may not be here for it. I'm happy with a Dana lynch and I'll put my vote next to it.

VOTE: danakillsu

[Unsight]

I see a pattern of you pushing against lynching him

and of saying you haven't read him. That's why I pressed regarding your ISO post. A week later and you still haven't read him? Really?

Yes, because

I didn't have a scum read on him whereas others did.

My lack of scum read gave me little desire to review him before the many other things I've been doing/want to do. So a week is null if hes low on my priority list. But he was nonetheless always on my agenda and now being the leading wagon (and me without concrete direction(although this is changing)) he moved up in priority.

As for your motives and alignment, I haven't had a scum read on you but your treatment of him looks a lot like Scum/Scum or Scum/Town.

In the second am I the scum or am I the town?

So regardless of how many others had a scum read on him, it still took you this long to get around to rereading him?

You're the scum. Defending someone while not having read them is a knowing-too-much tell regardless of the defendee's alignment.

[Unsight]

I don't buy SSBF's claim.

In one of the two games I've been mafia, I claimed vig and two mafia kills as mine and held it until the end. I'm certainly not going to fall for my own trick.

[Unsight]

My only alignment is Town (or Innocent as my role pm puts it) so your vote on me is catching no scum.

What is the purpose of this statement? Should we just take your word for it? And why go out of the way to claim Innocent when you have exactly 1 vote on you (at the time you made this post)?

Exactly what it appears to be and yes. You've come at me twice with misplaced suspicion and exceedingly poor logic only to basically ignore my responses. I'm pretty sure by now you've stopped actually listening to anything I have to say so I'm not sure what else I can say.

[Unsight]

I suggest we start casting votes and get real pressure going (preferably on Unsight) so discussion will pick up again.

OMGUS is lame. I called you on being scum with SSBF day 1 and you're pushing my lynch harder than ever since SSBF was gathering votes proving the point so I have a better idea--lynch SSBF and his faketastic claim and lynch you when he flips scum.

[Unsight]

I read over Unsight and I don't really see anything scummy that others haven't already pointed out. That said, it looks like Unsight is probably the lynch for today so VOTE: Unsight

Shameless wagoning is shameless.

[Unsight]

Vote Unsight

When you don't have a case to make and a reason next to your vote, it's usually a sign that you're voting for the wrong person.

[Unsight]

But strong feeling is that if we are not going to lynch a good SK candidate in SSBF under the pretense of "directing" his kill, then we should NOT be giving him an entire list of people to pick from. We should give him precisely 1 name. Otherwise, he's got the flexibility and leeway to try and kill the person he thinks (or maybe knows?) is Town out of the "list" we are giving him. And at this point the SK is going to be strongly motivated to kill Town if he can.

This makes no sense. We'd be giving him a list of people we think are scum. Therefore, it doesn't matter if

he

thinks they're town, because the town as a whole thinks they're scum.

Hand scum a list of people and they're going to shoot the people not on their team. At that point you're basically handing him a get-out-of-lynch card that says "Not only do you get to live another day or two, but you can continue shooting town too!"

[Unsight]

Unsight: SSBF is totally not mafia. He's most likely SK.

I don't buy that. I think the Day 1 oddity with MacCavityLock suggests that both are mafia.

[Unsight]

So you think there's a third scumteam?

Or SSBF is just lying.

[Unsight]

Anyway, I am Ser Davos Seaworth, Innocent Aligned. I'm an ONION KNIGHT. I have no idea what that is or why it's capitalized (never read the books), but apparently he nearly died and is really cool. I think that's all I can say without directly quoting my PM and getting modkilled.

Also, I have a vote and no other abilities.

I'll be V/LA over the weekend so if I live great, if I die I wish the town good luck. FWIW, my suspects are SSBF, Macavitar, and Magnaofillusion. The first two because I'm still pretty sure they're scum buddies and the last because he's been tunneling on me for the last dozen pages for idiotic reasons (like distancing Drippereth, being suspicious of people other than the single person I'm voting, and more) and it's too reaching to be scumhunting versus scum framing.

I'll be here for another 30 minutes or so while I'll check out my other game if anyone has questions for me before I go.

[Unsight]

Of course you're advancing the logic that he is lying, that goes without saying.

But what Locke was driving at was that you commented how SSBF was still scum - how do you justify this considering he's killed scum, one of each scum faction we're aware of? Either you're advancing a belief in a third scum team or you believe SSBF killed a scumbuddy - which is it and why?

3rd option: He's lying about his kills.

[Unsight]

Anyway, I am Ser Davos Seaworth, Innocent Aligned. I'm an ONION KNIGHT. I have no idea what that is or why it's capitalized.

Hello modkill

I don't understand why that would be a modkill. I'm paraphrasing my PM.

[Unsight]

And why are you even hinting that I should be modkilled? That, in itself, is scummy as hell.

[Unsight]

@Unsight: Seriously?

Yep. Think about it. At worst, it forces the scum to use their night kill on him. At best, the scum don't kill him or he has some protection against NK's.

[Unsight]

1. He's scum and is part of the team that hacks stuff - we now control an entire team's kill targets and as soon as we lynch part of this hidden third team then we know SSBF is scum - win for town.
2. He's scum and isn't part of the team that hacks stuff - that team now controls when/if SSBF is lynched and they don't like him very much and have no reason to protect him - win for town.
3. he's unkillable at night and is a SK - we already suspect this as a possibility, and it has little to do with you calling him scum

Maybe I'm being dense, but I just don't follow the logic. What am I missing?

I don't like relying on scum to kill scum. Relying on the wolf to eat the fox and protect the chicken just gives the wolf a two-course meal. Plus if I'm right about my Macavitar/SSBF theory then that's two dead scum back to back.

Either way, I shouldn't be lynched because I'm pro-town.

[Unsight]

A question to everyone: Has anyone been in a three scum faction game? I just can't see it being a possibility in this game, especially considering that Night 1 and Night 2 kills had at least one dead scums and a Vigilante claim claimed to kill both people.

@Unsight: Given that a third scum faction is very unlikely, why would you think a Greyjoy/Lannister would kill one Greyjoy and one Lannister back-to-back and actually plan on killing another scum tonight if CSL doesn't get through the noose today (Or hasdgfas, depending if cop investigation turns up guilty)?

You mean lie about it? To possibly live longer or at least force the other scum team to use their night kill on them.

[Unsight]

Well I'm still alive, but L-2 with no other viable lynches in sight means only one thing.

FWIW, here are my reads:

1) Xvart
2) Mina
4)

MacavityLock

6)

Unsight

7)

Thor665

8) Benmage
9)

Axelrod

10)

Super Smash Bros. Fan

13)

Vezokpiraka

14) Locke Lamora
15)

Mikujin

18) diddin
19)

CSL

20) Rifka Viveka
23)

RichardGHP

24) hasdgfas
25)

MagnaOfIllusion

I probably have one too many scum in that list (assuming 4 to a team), but that's what I'm thinking. At very least I'll hopefully be able to say "told ya so" post game.

[Unsight]

Unsight: you do know that one of your scum reads is gearing up to vig the other, right? Doesn't this invalidate your concerns about scum cross-killing?

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "your concerns about scum cross-killing."

Also I'm getting more and more puzzled as to why Benmage tried to get me modkilled in post 1850.

[Unsight]

Other than listing your 5 suspects as scum why aren’t you parsing who is likely Lannister versus Greyjoy?

Because I don't care what flavor the scum is as long as it dies.

[Unsight]

I'm still pro-town and SSBF is still scum.

VOTE: SSBF

Whether I'm right in that he's mafia or other people are right in that he's SK, he needs to go... like right now.

[Unsight]

Hey Unsight, we're lynching two people today and all you've done is turn up and say we should lynch SSBF. Got any other suspects?

Two lynches?

Anyway, I made a big post with everyone's name on it and my reads. The red names are my suspects.

Off-hand I'll go with MagnaofIllusion. He's been misrepping me this whole game from the part where he was insinuating I was distancing Drippereth to the part where he said I was fence sitting with dana to now where he's spouting nonsense about me proposing a 3 scum-team game. My suspicion of MacCavitar is based on connection with SSBF. If SSBF flips SK and not mafia, then Magna who's been (pardon the French) full of shit since Day 1 is my second choice.

Now I'm going to read the last few pages and hope my internet connection lasts long enough to finish/post.

[Unsight]

Ah I see the second lynch part. Guess I should start paying more attention to the flavor stuff.

[Unsight]

2) Mina
4)

Macavitar

6)

Unsight

7)

Thor665

9)

Axelrod

10)

Super Smash Bros. Fan

14)

Locke Lamora

15)

Mikujin

18) diddin
19)

CSL

23)

RichardGHP

24)

hasdgfas

25)

MagnaOfIllusion

Macavitar goes to black if SSBF flips SK.

[Unsight]

@Unsight - you have absolutely no town reads that aren't predicated on a power claim or alignment scan?

The only reads based on those are you, locke, and has. My meta reads are/were RichardGHP (who I defended before he claimed) and Vezo (who I defended despite his idiotic VI self voting me). My only read based on play is Mikujin and that was before he breadcrumbed whatever it is that he's breadcrumbing.

[Unsight]

Anyway, I made a big post with everyone's name on it and my reads. The red names are my suspects.

#2034: I'm assuming that this is your big post, correct? Especially considering that it has your reads and the red names being your suspects. If so, why does it only include your reads in terms of colored names and "Macavitar is null if SSBF flips SK."?

"I made a big post" = past tense. As in, I had done in previously and, by previously, I mean almost two weeks previously.

Also, if you had read the whole post you quoted...

Hey Unsight, we're lynching two people today and all you've done is turn up and say we should lynch SSBF. Got any other suspects?

Two lynches?

Anyway, I made a big post with everyone's name on it and my reads. The red names are my suspects.

Off-hand I'll go with MagnaofIllusion. He's been misrepping me this whole game from the part where he was insinuating I was distancing Drippereth to the part where he said I was fence sitting with dana to now where he's spouting nonsense about me proposing a 3 scum-team game.

My suspicion of MacCavitar is based on connection with SSBF.

If SSBF flips SK and not mafia, then Magna who's been (pardon the French) full of shit since Day 1 is my second choice.

Now I'm going to read the last few pages and hope my internet connection lasts long enough to finish/post.

...you'd have noticed the bold part which answers your second question.

[Unsight]

Anyway, I made a big post with everyone's name on it and my reads. The red names are my suspects.

Off-hand I'll go with MagnaofIllusion. He's been misrepping me this whole game from the part where he was insinuating I was distancing Drippereth to the part where he said I was fence sitting with dana to now where he's spouting nonsense about me proposing a 3 scum-team game. My suspicion of MacCavitar is based on connection with SSBF. If SSBF flips SK and not mafia, then Magna who's been (pardon the French) full of shit since Day 1 is my second choice.

Listing all remaining players and saying Scum or Town or Neutral is not scum-hunting.

That wasn't meant to be scumhunting. That was meant to be information for the town after I died. I made that post with the expectation I was going to be lynched so I did everything I could to lay my suspicions out.

Let’s see – the primary reason you suggest me is that I’ve been after your scummy self since Day 2.

You're the scum here and it shows in your case which has amounted to a load of piss-poor accusations from distancing drippereth to fence-sitting with dana as well as your tendency to ignore every post where I shot them down. That's not the play of someone hunting scum, it's the play of someone angling for a mislynch while conveniently avoiding other wagons.

Regarding the ‘spouting nonsense regarding a 3 scum-team’ game I direct you to the following –

I don't buy that. I think the Day 1 oddity with MacCavityLock suggests that both are mafia.

And yet SSBF was not hacked to death last night and has Nightkilled both Lannisters and Greyjoys. Exactly which Mafia is he with MacLock? It’s inference but it’s clear that –

1. They can’t be Lannisters together as that indictes a 5 man Lannister (and by extension Greyjoy) team which is way too many for the game size.
2. They can’t be Greyjoys as scum partners don’t NK each other but bus during the daytime to achieve Town cred.
3. That leaves some hypothetical third team.

If you don’t believe in a Third team how can SSBF be buddies with MacLock? It makes ZERO sense.

And please explain how SSBF flipping Serial Killer indicates that I’m full of shit and thus Mafia?

You're already full of shit. SSBF flipping SK just means that Macavitar is off the hook which bumps you up from #3 to #2.

As for SSBF and MacCavitar being buddies, I'm pretty sure if the kill flavor is meaningful that it's pretty much impossible. Hence why I'm very much in favor of lynching you today alongside SSBF.

[Unsight]

I wish people would stop making analyses that rely on me being scum. I've already done everything short of word for word quoting my role PM and it's not a scum one. The possibility of me being scum doesn't exist, so planning around that is wasted time that could be going toward lynching SSBF and MagnaOfIllusion.

[Unsight]

What do you think of CSL and Axel - your color coding hasn't clued me in as to which of them you may or may not consider scummier.

I haven't really liked CSL since the point where he voted Kleedrac and later came back with his explanation for the vote after. Shortly after that, Percy came at me with a "Why CSL and not XYZ?" I think it's pretty likely that if he is scum that he's Greyjoy scum in light of Percy's behavior.

My Axel suspicion comes from back on Day 1 where he chose CMAR over Raivann and then defended Raivann. Plus I'm not big on the choice to lynch Rifka over me (probably goes for din too) in that it's preferable for scum to lynch an unknown and keep a VT alive than lynch the VT and keep an unknown alive. Granted I like living, but choosing to lynch the unclaimed person over the claimed person is a scummy thing to do.

[Unsight]

so planning around that is wasted time that could be going toward lynching SSBF and MagnaOfIllusion.

You indicated that right now, me and Macavitar are your top two suspects with MagnaofIllusion at #3. Why not choose to lynch me and Macavitar instead of me and MagnaofIllusion if you think me and Macavitar are scummier overall?

Correct me if I am wrong Unsight but I believe a lot of her Macavitar suspicion is based on a proposed scum connection with you, which I don't really buy.

A lot of it comes down to kill flavor integrity. If the kill flavor is consistent then it means that SSBF is indeed the serial killer which puts MacCavitar in the clear (relatively). If SSBF flips mafia then I think MacCavitar will too. There's no question that SSBF is scum, it's only a matter of finding out what flavor of scum he is.

[Unsight]

Unsight, your 2078 is rather interesting in that while you state your suspicions of both CSL and Axel, you don't state your lynch preference between them. Clearly, that's what Thor was asking in the post you quoted.

Between the two of them, I'd definitely prefer lynching CSL.

[Unsight]

@Mina : I don't know. Could have been a gambit for all we know. In one game (off mafiascum.net), I called someone out on being scum on the last day of the game as a VT and they threw in the towel. Imagine their surprise post-game! So I try not to judge things too quickly. Still, I could hear the proverbial "You've fallen for my trap card" when Cow name-claimed.

My thoughts:

Macavitar - He's totally busted. His explanation boils down to that he just happened to be visiting the victim on the night of his death. I don't buy that at all.

MagnaOfIllusion - Since Macavitar is all but guaranteed to be the last Lannister and I don't see MagnaOfIllusion being the last Greyjoy considering he put Mikujin in the pile as his only other Greyjoy suspect besides Axelrod, I'm going to pull back on my "MagnaOfIllusion is scum die die die" stuff.

Mina - In light of the possibility of MagnaOfIllusion actually being town, it seems weird to see Mina going at him so aggressively (though with 1 scum found, it's the right move to go after the last one). Also, I'm always wary of people who specifically want to claim last (as Mina has done).

Speaking of which...

2) Mina - unclaimed
4) Macavitar - Mason Recruiter
6) Unsight - Vanilla Townie
7) Thor665 - Day Vigilante
18) diddin - Vanilla Townie
19) CSL -Vanilla Townie
23) RichardGHP - Vanilla Townie
24) hasdgfas - <town investigative role>
25) MagnaOfIllusion - Vanilla Townie

Let's finish this mass claim.

[Unsight]

My thoughts (though I'm sure no one cares) are...

- Macavitar is the last Lannister. He was found targeting Mikujin (Greyjoy) so he can only be Lannister.

- Mina is the last Greyjoy. Anyone remember Mina's last minute change-up on the Raivann (Greyjoy) wagon? Jumped straight from scum to a third target. Made CMAR's wagon the better wagon of choice (more support) and left her in the clear if CMAR flipped town. How about when Mina attacked Drippereth over Drippereth's suspicion of Percy (Greyjoy) based on the Raivann wagon? Oh and isn't that the silliest reason for voting Mikujin (Greyjoy)? Seriously, why is everyone suspecting Mikujin (Greyjoy)? And right now you ask? Mina is trying her hardest to pursue MagnaOfIllusion because if Macavitar goes down then it's a 1 scum game with a lot of us townsfolk left. Good grief, it's so damn obvious that Mina is the last Greyjoy.

- Cow is getting played like a cheap harmonica.

GG scum but you lose.

VOTE: Macavitar

[Unsight]

Mina is the last Greyjoy

This is incredibly false, for reasons that may become obvious in the future. If Mina's anything, she's Lannister.

- Cow is getting played like a cheap harmonica.

Look, here's the deal.

You called Macavitar out and he needs to claim something believable fast. Since we had a namecop die and you asked for a claim, it's pretty much certain you're a "weak information role" or, at very least, not a cop. That gives him enough wiggle room to say "he probably saw me target Mikujin" and go from there. He uses his knowledge of flavor to claim something crazy and garnishes it heavily with flavor. You drop the "you fell for my trap card" post and he falls back to "oh well I must have been roleblocked." I don't believe that for a second and neither should anyone here.

Now going from there, we're almost definitely at 7 town, 1 Lannister, and 1 Greyjoy. If we lynch Macavitar, we'll be at 6 town + 1 Greyjoy tomorrow. The last Greyjoy needs to survive for 3 days in this scenario. With so many people practically confirmed town, those are horrendously bad odds--they border on auto-town win. However, if we mislynch today then it becomes 4-1-1 tomorrow. The Macavitar lynch will look just as good and we'll end up at 3-1 and LYLO on the following day. That means the Greyjoy needs only fight for their life on 1 day. I say all that to say this: the Greyjoy has gotta gotta gotta keep Macavitar alive. With that in mind, there are two people doing that right now: Mina and MagnaOfIllusion.

One of those two is our last Greyjoy. MagnaOfIllusion called out Axelrod and Mikujin as the Greyjoy yesterday. It seems like terrifically bad form to paint a bullseye on your last remaining partner while lynching the other one suspect because the following day he has to face questions like "Why aren't you going after Miku, he's your last Greyjoy suspect right?" Meanwhile, reading Mina's ISO shows her defending other Greyjoy scum time and time again. She defends every single Greyjoy at one time or another (as I show in my post with links). MagnaOfIllusion has the scumhunting ability of a jelly donut and I'd love to lynch him, but there's more evidence against Mina by far. Unless you have role-confirmed iron-clad belief that Mina is 100% triple-A confirmed town, go read those links above.

[Unsight]

Hey, Unsight. You never answered this question:

Actually I did, in post 2182.

-You do realize I only unvoted Raivann after he'd been pushed to L-1 and claimed vig? Before that, I was the first on his mob, and pushed his lynch over CMAR's. I only voted Budja because, now that Raivann was off the table, I preferred his lynch to CMAR's.

Vig isn't a good claim to unvote for so that's a pretty worthless explanation. All the reasons you voted for Raivann suddenly disappeared after the claim? "Oh gosh he claimed vig, gotta unvote!!!" Yeah, not buying that explanation.

-You're the one clearing MoI merely because he put Mikujin in his Greyjoy suspect pool. I cleared Mikujin because he was the second vote on Raivann, and fervently pushed Raivann's lynch. I think there were very good reasons to think Mikujin wasn't a Greyjoy.

I'm not clearing MoI, I'm saying you're more likely to be our last scum based on play. Also, I think your reasons for Miku not being Greyjoy were shit... because he flipped Greyjoy.

-You realize that I was the

second vote on Macavitar

? And that I attacked MoI for trying to get someone other than Mac lynched? Just because I'm attacking MoI, doesn't mean I'm willing to vote him. (TBH, though, I've been tempted. Still think it's better to have Mac's alignment settled once and for all.)

Which means entirely nothing since you unvoted right after. Like I said, the last Greyjoy would still want Macavitar lynched, just not today. That fits in perfectly with your "I suspect him, <unvote>, MoI is scummy!" play so far.

Magna had already expressed a strong willingness to lynch you. He'd have probably pushed you as a Greyjoy suspect today had Mikujin not died. But furthermore, even if you think he wouldn't have distanced as scum, here's his final read on Mikujin:

Suspicion of Greyjoy (STRONG / MEDIUM / MINIMAL) - Minimal

That is interesting. ISO 61 puts Miku in the Greyjoy pool and then ISO 62 puts him as "Minimal." Gotta wonder what changed in there.

[Unsight]

Excuse the blatant prod avoidance but I don't have much to say right now.

As a side note, I just realized I typed this in here 3 hours ago and forgot to hit submit.

[Unsight]

By the way, a question neither Unsight nor CSL answered:

@ Mina: That statement meant, to me anyways, that he was scum trying to be town, and got killed for it. If this does not make sense, I'll try to re-word it.

What? Are you saying you

knew

Mikujin was scum?

Maybe you misunderstood my question. When Mikujin pulled his whole "I don't think Locke will have anything to reveal, because ha ha ha, I just might have been keeping an

eye

on him" shtick, did you know he was a power role? Did you think he was a watcher?

I'm so glad you're pointing out that I never answered a question that wasn't directed to me.

Mina 2232: CSL did you know Miku was a power role? Did you think he was a watcher?
CSL: *doesn't answer*
Mina 2305: Look, Unsight and CSL didn't answer this question.
Unsight 2314: O.o

Anyway, a breadcrumb like that looks more like tracker to me. Watcher would have information on the target but not on the target's actions. In hindsight, it would be pretty bizarre for a town tracker to be following Locke though.

[Unsight]

I'm at L-1. We have a confirmed scum to lynch and instead you put the VT at L-1.

What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Unsight]

Where do you think votes should be instead and why?

Is there something confusing about my position that makes you ask this or have you just not bothered to read any of my posts?

Macavitar - He's totally busted. His explanation boils down to that he just happened to be visiting the victim on the night of his death. I don't buy that at all.

- Macavitar is the last Lannister. He was found targeting Mikujin (Greyjoy) so he can only be Lannister.

Mina is the last Greyjoy

This is incredibly false, for reasons that may become obvious in the future. If Mina's anything, she's Lannister.

- Cow is getting played like a cheap harmonica.

Look, here's the deal.

You called Macavitar out and he needs to claim something believable fast. Since we had a namecop die and you asked for a claim, it's pretty much certain you're a "weak information role" or, at very least, not a cop. That gives him enough wiggle room to say "he probably saw me target Mikujin" and go from there. He uses his knowledge of flavor to claim something crazy and garnishes it heavily with flavor. You drop the "you fell for my trap card" post and he falls back to "oh well I must have been roleblocked." I don't believe that for a second and neither should anyone here.

Now going from there, we're almost definitely at 7 town, 1 Lannister, and 1 Greyjoy. If we lynch Macavitar, we'll be at 6 town + 1 Greyjoy tomorrow. The last Greyjoy needs to survive for 3 days in this scenario. With so many people practically confirmed town, those are horrendously bad odds--they border on auto-town win. However, if we mislynch today then it becomes 4-1-1 tomorrow. The Macavitar lynch will look just as good and we'll end up at 3-1 and LYLO on the following day. That means the Greyjoy needs only fight for their life on 1 day. I say all that to say this: the Greyjoy has gotta gotta gotta keep Macavitar alive. With that in mind, there are two people doing that right now: Mina and MagnaOfIllusion.

One of those two is our last Greyjoy. MagnaOfIllusion called out Axelrod and Mikujin as the Greyjoy yesterday. It seems like terrifically bad form to paint a bullseye on your last remaining partner while lynching the other one suspect because the following day he has to face questions like "Why aren't you going after Miku, he's your last Greyjoy suspect right?" Meanwhile, reading Mina's ISO shows her defending other Greyjoy scum time and time again. She defends every single Greyjoy at one time or another (as I show in my post with links). MagnaOfIllusion has the scumhunting ability of a jelly donut and I'd love to lynch him, but there's more evidence against Mina by far. Unless you have role-confirmed iron-clad belief that Mina is 100% triple-A confirmed town, go read those links above.

That middle paragraph is the key worry because not lynching him basically trades a town lynch for a scum kill which puts the last Greyjoy scum in ideal position as end game (assuming I get lynched today) will probably look like Mina, MagnaOfIllusion, and CSL. That is scary to me because I think MagnaOfIllusion and Mina could each be the last Greyjoy so having them both alive at LYLO is bad for the town. Conversely, if we lynch Macavitar (getting rid of the Lannister faction), we get 3 lynches to find the last Greyjoy which is almost an auto-town-win.

That is 100% pro-town logic. We can play by the numbers and win this as long as people are not idiots.

[Unsight]

Except your logic holds equally true if I were to change out all occurrences of Macavitar in that second paragraph and replace them with Unsight. The logic is predicated on Mac being scum, and I'm not sure I agree with that anymore.

We have a PR who linked Mac to a kill. My logic relies on Mac being scum because he obviously is.

Aren't you going to explain to me how I obviously need to believe your VT claim also? That sort of seemed to be part of your defense earlier and I'm still confused as to why, are you advancing a defense based on PR ratio in the game or do you believe scum never claim VT or something?

I have an ISO filled with 100% pro-town posts. If people don't see that by now then I'm sure one more post isn't going to make the magic light bulb of realization appear. The best I can do is work toward putting the town in a position where a mislynch doesn't cost us the game. I'm not advancing a defense, I'm saying "let's lynch the scum."

[Unsight]

Honestly, I think I want to lynch CSL, not necessarily for his play, but because he's such a wild card, and I have no idea what I think of him.

CSL is absolutely the wrong lynch for today and I'll explain why.

CSL is a heavily suspected player. He is more likely to be lynched than a good portion of people. This means that the more lynches the town gets, the worse his odds of surviving are. Despite this, he jumped on the Macavitar wagon right away. Not only did he jump on the wagon fast but, unlike Mina, he also stuck with it for a long time. As scum, this is the absolute worst thing he could probably do because without the other scum faction he's basically up the creek without a paddle. Whatever town points he might gain from being on the wagon of Macavitar wouldn't keep him alive through 3 lynches to win at end game.

The only lynch that makes sense today is Macavitar.

[Unsight]

(Can anyone besides me understand what's going on here? Or is this too "out there"?)

Anyway, it looks to me like No Lynch has the least chance of hurting us, because we have the best chance of having the most time to find the remaining scum.

No lynch would be a better option... if it weren't for the fact that we have you placing Macavitar at the scene of a kill. Really, the only thing better evidence-wise than that is a Cop investigation.

In this situation, all No Lynch is doing is taking one lynch away from the town and giving it to the scum. You're basically saying "Instead of the town lynching Macavitar, we're going to No Lynch and let him shoot someone tonight."

[Unsight]

To recap this day: We had a PR out someone as scum and we're going to end with a VT lynch.

Since the town is so dumb, I'm going to tell you what's almost definitely going to happen in the next two days. I'm going to flip town on my lynch. Thor, has, or both are going to get shot tonight. Tomorrow you're going to realize how stupid you were today and lynch Macavitar. The day after that you will find yourselves in LYLO with CSL, Magna, and Mina. CSL is going to get the deciding vote between Magna and Mina... and he'll pick wrong.

[Unsight]

To recap this day: We had a PR out someone as scum and we're going to end with a VT lynch.

Since the town is so dumb, I'm going to tell you what's almost definitely going to happen in the next two days. I'm going to flip town on my lynch. Thor, has, or both are going to get shot tonight. Tomorrow you're going to realize how stupid you were today and lynch Macavitar. The day after that you will find yourselves in LYLO with CSL, Magna, and Mina. CSL is going to get the deciding vote between Magna and Mina... and he'll pick wrong.

Boy, instead of lambasting the town, how about you try to help? Macavitar can't be the only scum. What are your other thoughts?

I have spent a whole freaking day trying to help and I'm getting lynched. I'm tired of helping. If you're going to do something this stupid then I'm going to call you on it.

I've have said my damn thoughts over and over. Mac is the last lannister. Magna or Mina is the last greyjoy.

[Unsight]

You know, I think this loss bothers me more than any other person in the game right now mostly because I spent all of Day 5 telling the town who the final scum were. It just kills me (figuratively and in-game) to see an easy win go down the toilet. I really want to shout "I was right, you were wrong, because you fucked up we lost" and vent and rage and blame everyone who isn't me.

I want to do that, but it doesn't work that way. Mafia is a team game and it isn't just enough to be right about your reads, you have to be able to convince others that you're right too. I totally screwed up there. I saw Macavitar's fake claim, Cow/Mina's investigation, and laughed. I played my victory fanfare and basically chalked this game up as a win. I said to myself "Oh it's so obviously a fake claim" and just assumed that we would lynch him. At that point, I stopped trying to convince others that it was fake because I just assumed it was obvious. I stopped playing half the game and my team lost. I can only blame myself for that.

Things that upset me about this game:

- Macavitar had the shittiest fake claim in the world and survived with it.
- I've been a vanilla townsfolk for the last half dozen games and even in a theme game with so many roles was vanilla.
- I totally misread LMP's connections.
- A scum tie counts as a scum win.
- I coasted by on Days 3 and 4 without putting any effort into scum hunting.
- I let the town down on Day 5.

Things that made me happy about this game:

- I spotted a lot of connections (scum and king's guard)
- I survived until Day 5.
- I was not only right about some of my scumspects but I had logical, good reasoning for some of them (like MagnaOfIllusion's guilt).
- My meta-reads on SSBF, Vezo, and RichardGHP were all on the money.
- I got to play with a lot of players I hadn't seen before and many of whom were very impressive (both scum and town).

Sad end but I had fun overall.

Thanks to Faraday and Seacore for moderating. <3 you both.