A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Thor665]

Greetings,

I'm replacing in for Paranoia. I'll be catching up over the next couple of days and should start providing brilliant (?) insights thereafter. I can't guarantee the brilliance, but I will guarantee no more lurking in this slot and no need to replace it. I should have enough time tomorrow to manage a read of at least a good chunk of the current game and will be back with comments/thoughts sometime Monday evening.

::insert obligatory hi to all the players I've played with before::

[Thor665]

Greetings,

As promised this is my late Monday update (I suppose officially early Tuesday, but let's not go into that semantic discussion)

I'm currently on page 10 of my read through (verily doth there be some mighty walls back here and ne'er doth it appear to change moving forward). I've also been more or less following the current discussion since my first post. As far as I can tell Richard has had pressure slip away due to a claim of some sort, it'll be interesting to see what that is as back on Page 10 he was campaigning loudly for more votes to be placed upon him. I also really got some nasty vibes off Dr. Modem, but his replacement hasdgfas came in strongly town and has left that read muddled.

The current excitement appears to be all about Riv (deer back where I'm reading) CMAR and Budja (who I've only known as Kleedac and appears to just be lurking at least up through what I've read, though from what I can infer is absorbing some votes because of a emotional flare up and/or AtE he did during the game).

The CMAR wagon appears to be based mostly on lurking (which is not an unreasonable plot in a larger game like this, but is hardly a case written on magical paper from the land of win), and him trying to be very proactive in his early posts. I actually got a reasonable townie read off CMAR thus far in my read - he appears like excited newbie more then scum to me, I certainly think the heat he got for "ending the RVS" and suggesting the contract was meaningless. The Budja case appears to be focused on an emotional outburst by the player, which I will admit I react negatively to them as well, but I have yet to find any sort of legitimate connection between emotions and scumminess. In short my current read says that CMAR is an excited newb who is more likely a planned mislynch then a plotting scum. I also think Budja is probably getting undue attention for the flare up, making the votes perhaps more policy then scum related.

I am liking both Mina and Percy's recent posts as they appear thought out, both of them feel scum on Raivann, and I certainly have a decent gut scum read on deer from what I've seen thus far on pages 1-10. I'd rather lynch deer/Raiv then CMAR who appears the other top suspect, so let's try to get this wagon in gear as well.

Vote: Raivann

If anyone thinks my vote is fail because of something between page 10 and here then please drop me a link or inform me about what I'm missing and I'll take it into consideration. Otherwise please consider joining us, we have cookies.

[Thor665]

Thor's post seems scummy to me as well, he is making sure not to offend.

Appeasement can be scummy.
Basic politeness is not.
Rudeness is not townish, while we're at it.
I'm (almost) always polite and certainly when playing attempt to offend no one, I'm not always scum.

Specifically what from my post do you see as my attempt to avoiding giving offense in a scummy manner? I personally think I made some pretty strong opinions known as regards the top wagons and those are solid opinions to have on the table whether or not I am attempting to offend anyone when making them.

I'm not a fan of either mine or CMAR wagons, but..

What are your thoughts on Budjra as a wagon? Why do you dislike the CMAR wagon?

I'll also second hasdgfas' question to vezokpiraka - I'm not a fan of no lynch, I'm less of a fan of voting for someone you don't think is scummy just to make a lynch happen.

I should be able to do more read through sometime today and will aim to have more thoughts up this evening (that said I'm working till 1 AM my time so any post will be late)

[Thor665]

I'm not a fan of no lynch, I'm less of a fan of voting for someone you don't think is scummy just to make a lynch happen.

Rly?

Rly!

I had a very bad experience in an earlier game where I ended up voting on the policy of avoiding no lynch - I hammered cop that I didn't really suspect, became the bestest friend of the scummorz team, and gloriously charged into defeat that game. I'm really not a fan of voting simply for the policy. Policy plus suspicion is okay as long as you think who you're voting is scum, but voting and saying "to avoid no lynch" while not making clear that you think who you're voting is (possible) scum? I'm not a fan of that.

[Thor665]

You people need to stop exploding the thread like this, I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever catch up (currently I'm on Page 17 - I'm slow, I suck, I know).

I'm really not liking vezopiraka's play either now or then, it almost seems too sadly obvious to be scummy (take what cheese with this wine you will) but his constant flipping around, lack of explanations on his suspicions, and desire to manage some vote, any vote, without any seeming preference just rubs me in very unpleasant ways.

I now see why someone joked about my CMAR read as now I've gotten to that unvote/soft claim thing. I agree with everyone who has commented about his most recent post as well, it was a non functional post. I still don't particularly want him lynched right now.
Mikijun and Hayker are both active lurking to an offensive level, they are both scummy.
I don't think I support the Richard wagon at this point, I'd rather lynch Raiv if I had to choose between the two and I don't like the sudden scramble to Richard in light of the Raiv claim - what exactly about that claim suddenly puts Richard back in play when previously he was not an option?

Im thinking we lynch richard for a win-win. If he is scum, yay. If he is telling truth, vig blows someone like CMAR up

Do you find Richard scummier then CMAR? Why not just lynch CMAR if CMAR is that scummy?

[Thor665]

Thor, I've seen you active in the Theme Park forum over the past couple of days. Yet you haven't had much to say. Thoughts on anything?

I have been active since I've been here reading off and on when I have free time. Since my post yesterday I have the following thoughts on what's happened since (that was my roundabout way of disagreeing about whether I've had much to say <-- this part is the non-roundabout way);

I think CMAR is probably town, as I've said before. I think he wins the hat o' fail for not claiming yesterday when there might have been time to do something about it. I share the attitude presented by Axlerod, as I think town is being forced to blunder into this lynch now because of CMAR's lurking. As long as we're accusing CMAR of bad play, I'll add his lack of a current vote. By lack of voting he's basically helping his own wagon - fail.

I'm not sure what to think of your Richard/Riavann consideration since my suspicions are flip-flopped from your own (I suspect Richard town and Riav scum) I agree that there is something amiss in that relationship.

@Mina

- what are your thoughts about the movement from Riav to Richard post Riav's claim?

Vote: Budja

i will not be around at deadline as I'm off to work again until late tonight. I am willing to try to help this wagon since I think the CMAR wagon is town and I don't mind competing for the record on getting 14 votes for a lynch. I encourage everyone who's saying "hey...I think CMAR's probably town...shame it's too late" to get off your wide duffs and actually cast a vote somewhere else or accept and admit that you desire to see CMAR lynched - any other action is poor play in my eyes.

Everyone who is on a wagon that isn't CMAR really owes it to everyone else in the game to get some motion going in some direction. Declare support of the CMAR wagon or start selling yours.

Kleedrac was an opportunistic lurker - as far as I can tell Budja has some negativity of his own and is at the very least also a lurker. Let's lynch him over a slot everyone is now admitting looks townish, yes?

[Thor665]

I would also vote Vezok for the aforementioned reasons.

WHOOPS, FORGOT THAT BUDJA REPLACED HIM, AND IS NOW DEAD! DISREGARD!!!

So...Vezo...not so much a worthwhile second vote or what?

I'm liking where Percy is going thus far, and also liked the vezo wagon though with CSL's oddness am off-put by it. I had issues with Hayker during my read and though I am not sure about CSL enough to put a vote on him at this juncture my quotes above leave me uneasy on vezo and him, something in Denmark is past its expiration date. I do find dana the most tasty and scummy looking of the options as currently presented. Go, go, wagon of win.

Vote: danakillsu

Also, Budja self killed? Booo, that is totally not win condition.

[Thor665]

Oh, and a bit of bookkeeping.

I am

V/LA

July 1-7. I may have internet connectivity if the room has free internet, but am otherwise going to have none as I am too cheap to pay for it. After the 7th expect my posting to return to normal (which actually I really haven't been yet in this thread - I'm usually more of a chatty Cathy then my play currently suggests).

[Thor665]

I'd earlier expressed issues about Mikujin (lurking) and he had countered that his play picked up later. I agree with his assessment and withdraw from my stance on that slot and shall reset it into a neutral zone.

I like the dana, SSBF, and CSL wagons - all of these players have done enough that I think they are pretty good options as vote targets. dana still looks the most likely scum of the three to me. My issues with CSL are almost pure gut and a lurking feeling so of the three he's probably my weakest scum read, but I am not against the wagon like I was against some of the wagons yesterday.

I really agree with the comments about the vezo wagon that SSBF is pursuing. As I'd said earlier, his scumminess almost seems so overt as to be inconceivable. I think those who are calling him the classic VI are fairly spot on. Him eating a bullet (hacking?) would not be a bad thing, I think we can find some better uses for rope.

[Thor665]

^^^

I'm guessing that post is by dana and not Raiv as the quote tag suggests. Who was the "he" in the conversation? Thor doth demand context.

[Thor665]

Has

anyone

read my case on CSL? Anyone at all? It's not just a lurker lynch. It's a lot like the case on danakillsu, except my wagon has butterflies and rainbows!

I read it. I don't disagree with the conclusions. I would be content with a CSL lynch. At the moment I'm feeling dana more then CSL. Really we need to get more people in here and voting so we can get a feel for which way the wind is blowing.

[Thor665]

tl:dr

Drip needs date checking in iso work
dana is scummy and needs a lynch rope
my scum list is - dana, CSL, SSBF
Not a fan of Vezo wagon.
A question for Mina, xvart, and Rifka

=======================================================

Thor is VLA July 1-7. I do like this posts, the early ones. Then after his iso post #8, he gets lazy, and starts coasting. Mmmmm.

Hmmm, a to do list for the hydra;

1. Check time/date stamps of posts (specifically the last three, one of which you say is good and two of which you call "coasting"
2. Extract head(s) from backside.
3. ?
4. Profit.

vote:SSBF

for reasons mentioned and because his reasons for voting for me are horrible. The "guess who flipped town and who flipped scum" is ridiculous, because my saying Kleedrac-town was worse than Raivann-town had nothing to do with which way they actually flipped.
@Axelrod
I did in fact change my mind after asking why people were voting for Raivann because of the answers they gave.
Still, nobody has explained why I have to be scum from my actions, instead choosing to continually say it makes me look bad, which I already know, considering how many people are voting for me. Vezo's vote on me is bull, btw.

This post is full of fail on a lot of levels. Dana continues to occlude the Riavann issue by now saying he did change his mind, which brings into question people calling him on the earlier defense of Riavann and him saying he'd thought the slot scummy for some time. Also, his final sentence is pure win wrapped in pecan pie - he admits his actions "make [him] look bad" but wonders why "nobody has explained why [he] has to be scum"

Why do you think it makes you look bad if you don't think it makes you look scummy, exactly?

Reading up over the past few pages since my trip I feel as though I am looking at a field of people trying desperately to compete for who should be lynched first. I am still liking dana the most out of them for above noted reasons and just a strong gut distaste for how he's currently posting. He's gone on full defensive with no other thoughts and it's not like he did much earlier that resounded with town energy. CSL has shot *way* up my list for the really odd claim, and judging by the wound there was a lot of agreement in that logic. If he hadn't been wounded I might be tempted to work that wagon a bit more but feel he can certainly wait a bit now with that effect on him.

My current lynch desire, in order, is dana, CSL, SSBF. There is a general cloud of scumminess after that and I'm currently feeling MacavityLock and Benmage near the top there. I still feel a lot of difficulty reading some players but suspect that's still me getting used to the size of these games.

I don't like the Vezo wagon nor those currently mumbling about it in support while not voting it. The dripping hydra feels like the performance is being phoned in by at least one of the heads, I like the new energy and would like to see more of that and less of what had come previous.

@Mina - what are your thoughts on the CSL lynch post the wound?

@xvart - why do you like dana over SSBF?

@Rifka Viveka - reverse question - why do you like SSBF over dana?

[Thor665]

Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I don't really see a purpose or accountability to be had from this information, since I see no downside, I'll answer, but I wouldn't mind you mentioning at some point how you think this info will help.

I voted to stab CSL. Reasoning being he was scummy, so it is better he is stabbed then a non scummy person. Also, if he was town then he wasn't lying when he claimed, so the wounding wouldn't hurt town and if he's scum his wounding would help town. Frankly I'm personally still trying to decide if my latter conclusion is true because lack of a vote has certain advantages in accountability issues, but I'm not sure I see that really affecting CSL one way or another so I'm not worrying about it again till endgame when the losing side grumps about everything being unbalanced and the winning side disagrees.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I can see it makes me LOOK bad, because a lot of people are voting for me. That doesn't mean I'm scum....

You look bad because you have done something scummy.
Doing something scummy makes you more likely to be scum.
I really don't get what you're driving at here.

@Thor and Percy
You two have been pressuring me so much that I say things that SEEM inconsistent. It's ridiculous. You say, "This is scummy". Then I say "Anyone could do that. This is my perspective". Then you say "That's retconning. Lynch him". What am I supposed to do other than tell you what I thought at the time? However, the things I have said are NOT inconsistent. I thought Raivann was scummy, but didn't make that very obvious. I asked everyone why they were voting for him INSTEAD of Kleedrac, with the implication that Kleedrac was a better lynch. The responses I got convinced me that Raivann was scummier than I originally thought. But I still wanted to lynch Kleedrac/Budja more.

I do not feel that your current explanation meshes with what you have said before and what your actions implied you believed. You disagree - this doesn't surprise me nor convince me I am wrong.

If we shouldn't lynch you (since you're obv. town), who should we lynch and why?

[Thor665]

and I'm clear.

As a point of note, I'd still like to see more activity from cleared townies. I have a theory that it helps town and I'd like to test it.

[Thor665]

@ Thor
Of course you don't get what I'm driving at, you want me lynched. Fair enough. I know you're smart enough to see what I'm saying.

You overestimate me - I am an idiot and have an odd fungal growth on my feet.

There are roughly eight people who also don't seem to be "getting" what you're driving at. Is it not worth explaining it so as to show why you're not the lynch today? As far as I can tell your defense is that we don't know 100% that you're scum - this is not a good defense. If it's something else feel free to clue me in anytime.

Also, I did ask you who were your top suspects and reasons why. You either missed that question or chose to ignore it. I'll ask it again - if we shouldn't lynch you who should we lynch and why? I'd love to see your top three suspects and reasoning right now.

[Thor665]

It's really easy to see the people actually putting a case forward versus the blatant wagon-ers especially toward the end.

I will support a danakillsu lynch

Pot, meet kettle.

Vezo is uber anti-town. He's just awful. I'd mention the p word but there are very scummy people who need lynching first.

A yes or no question - do you find vezo scummy?

[Thor665]

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then? You go out of your way to bring him up, describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently not finding him scummy, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. If there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

[Thor665]

If I had a read on vezo one way or the other, I'd have given it.

Out of curiosity, why the soft sell on him, then?

You

go out of your way to bring him up,

describe him as being "very anti-town" while apparently

not

finding him scummy

, and then mention that there are lots of people who need to be lynched first without mentioning any of them. If there are people who need rope prior to vezo why mention him by name and not them?

Anti-town and scummy are not synonymous.

I am well aware of this, please refer to my post where I bolded and underlined the relevant statements. I agree that anti-town and scummy are two different things and made it clear in my commentary that I understood this and accurately represented what it was you said.

Also, perhaps if you read my ISO you would be able to answer your own questions. So far I've indicated SSBF with MacCavityLock based on the flip as well as dana, drip, and LMP based on reactions to the Raivann wagon yesterday.

I see no problem with me asking you to restate your suspicions from time to time for my personal clarity's sake. Why do you find it unreasonable?

Your entire post very much looks like either you haven't ISO'd me to actually know my thoughts so far, you're deliberately attempting to misrep me, or both.

I believe I addressed both accusations and will now dismiss them fully with a hearty belly laugh - HAH HAH!

I'll also note in your counter attack on me you didn't actually answer the question I posed to you - why the soft sell attack on Vezo if you don't want him lynched and have a list of roughly three people to lynch prior to him? I don't care for soft selling because it appears you're trying to strengthen a case without actually weighing in on it. The fact dana has now taken up the vezo case continues to give me jitters in that regard.

[Thor665]

and Brynden is a believable claim.

For future record, based off of Raiv's claim, I think it's so blatantly obvious that scum have false claims I would absolutely love it if people stopped bothering with this nonsense in their cases.

[Thor665]

@Thor
Any thoughts on my scumreads?

Well, I already commented on the vezo one (in a post not directed at you) and to a certain extent I'll be more interested in your scum reads after you flip (and below do discuss them in more of a concept of seeing you as scum) but if you really want to hear my thoughts they are as follows;

Number 1 scum: vezokpiraka

I think you're hopping on a VI here and have been unenthralled by the vezo case(s) thus far. Vezo is pretty obviously anti-town and really will need to be vigged at some point, but wanting to lynch him now doesn't strike me as particularly helpful. I also don't feel like you were pushing vezo up until I made you say who was your top suspect and think you chose him as an easily tacked in suspicion.

Number 2 scum: Cow
Calls Raivann scum multiple times but never votes for him. Active lurker.

It would take something very odd for me to want to lynch hasdskjhgdsl today. I also agree with his defense towards you about the active lurking and 'calling Riav scum multiple times' accusations and you never really came back at him with anything. This feels like either taking a wild swing at a scumbuddy or trying to implicate a townie/other scum team so you can suggest you're having unique thoughts.

Number 3 scum: I doubt it
Votes for Raivann, unvotes him because of his claim, even though he doesn't really think the claim makes sense later.

I actually agree with certain points made here, though again I don't consider I doubt it a solid lynch option today. Much like above this feels like either scumbuddy or townie on the list and my personal feelings make me suspect it as more likely a buddy.

I'm also fascinated that SSBF the claim at L-10 vanilla lurker ended up as a tacked on number 4 to your list, when almost everyone else considers him far more scummy then that.

I am quite happy we have this list out of you, so that whichever way you flip we have a bit more grist to grind over.

I still think you're scum.

[Thor665]

I wasn't pushing anyone until you asked me, because I was defending myself. [*snip*] I wasn't VOTING for vezo was because I was mistakenly voting for SSBF partially because of his "vote" on me.

I will note both of those statements are admissions to actions that I consider scummy. I also wasn't the first person to point out that all you were doing was defending yourself.

Also, you're opinion of my Cow scumread is ridiculous. You're not choosing to deal with the read at face value, but rather telling me that he's not the lynch for today and that my read on him is unique.

I also said that I agreed with his defense of your accusations, and that your follow up was weak. That seems to be a fairly explicit statement of where I am in opinion to your case on him. Also, I didn't call your case unique - I called it as a wild swing so that you could claim you had unique thoughts - there's a big difference there.

[Thor665]

oh. oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhhh. I see. No. Vezo said that he didn't want the day to end in a no lynch and that everyone should vote for raivann. I was telling him to be patient because we had two days until deadline and had plenty of time to figure out who to lynch.

I missed that bit about vezo. If true, no way vezo is scum, then.

Post 754

Number 1 scum: vezokpiraka
Votes for Raivann, unvotes him because of his claim, even though he thinks it's fake, then votes for someone else, while saying Raivann's still probscum but he might be wrong. Wow.

Vote: Vezokpiraka

Oh, yeah, but THIS. This is why I had a scum read on vezo. I can't convince Elli... but I think that's scum knowing the claim is fake.

Vote: Vezokpiraka

Can't be scum if something easily verifiable is true.
Is scum, must vote for him.
My head asplodes.

----------------------------------

I'd be happy with either vezo or Drip being shot at this point.
We need more Mina and Percy in the thread.
Earlier I'd expressed issue with Mikijun over lurking, I'll retract those issues now and agree with the defense he made of his actions at that time.
I am hating Richard for his total lack of participation - this action plan is full of fail.

@Benmage

- we understand that Vezo is anti-town and/or VI, I'm actually pretty sure every player here has said as much. Are you going anywhere with this? It feels more like white noise then scumhunting.

[Thor665]

As scum you'd only be clear on your scumbuddies and would still have the other scum team out there as a mystery. So I'll agree insomuch as, yes, at least a few players would be off the chopping block.

I don't see why you have to go into such a mental tailspin for it, though.

[Thor665]

@Benmage

- we understand that Vezo is anti-town and/or VI, I'm actually pretty sure every player here has said as much. Are you going anywhere with this? It feels more like white noise then scumhunting.

White noise.

Perhaps it is - my white noise also included a specific question, do you have a reply to that question or are you planning to ignore it?

[Thor665]

@Benmage

- we understand that Vezo is anti-town and/or VI, I'm actually pretty sure every player here has said as much.

Are you going anywhere with this?

It feels more like white noise then scumhunting.

What question did I miss?

To be more explicit - you noted twice that you thought vezo was dumb about his role PM and all those posts contained was that information. Unless you think nobody in town thinks of Vezo as the VI I really didn't see the purpose nor the scumhunting in your postings. Please explain that purpose.

[Thor665]

Ah, I had thought you were calling my question white noise, not answering the question. I grok now.

And to answer your question - I asked you because you did it twice in separate posts - making your need for that point to be made seem more insistent. I wanted to know why.

[Thor665]

@Thor665

: Once everyone's said whether they stabbed CSL, I'll say why I'm curious to know.

Also, you say you want to hear more from "cleared townies". Who are you thinking of besides Richard?

Though what I said was spoken of in generalities it was in direct response to Richard - he's the only player I was referring to either time (the generalities were because I was making general statements - e.g. 'it is helpful to town when cleared townies are active' et al).

[Thor665]

@LynchMePls - there are a couple possibilities for the lack of the wagon reaching takeoff, and they do not all end in dana being scum.

I'll elevate Drip into my scum listings from my anti-town listings. I'd had issues earlier but with the attack on me was debating if I was just feeling some OMGUS energy and turning it into scum energy in my own head. If others are feeling it then I agree, I'd still put the holy trinity of dana, CSL, and SSBF ahead of Drip and in that order. Drip is ahead of Macavity Lock and I am unclear of the relation with Benmage on my list, so I'll blob them together and call them equally scummy to me.

[Thor665]

I don't support a CSL lynch today due to the stabbing McStabbiness that happened to him.

I'm actually somewhat swayed by Mina's roleclaim arguement about dana and the idea of leaving him for a NK. But I'm certainly not going to hop on a CSL wagon with that thought. I'd support a dana, SSBF, and Benmage lynch and in that order. I really wouldn't mind it if some friendly fellow were to shoot vezo or Drip overnight. I think Percy is wrong about Mina and that his fear of Minascum is making him hop at shadows.

That's my daily update of exciting. I feel like we're starting to slow down, I'd like to see some of those solo vote wagons either start getting sold like mad or people get off them. I'd be super excited to see that vezo wagon die as I'd love to see where everyone on it goes.

[Thor665]

@Benmage - "relation" insomuch as I wasn't sure who was scummier. The entire sentence that was part of was about placing my scumreads in relation to each other. I blobbed you together as equally scummy because I couldn't decide who was more or less scummy between the two.

[Thor665]

I'd support a dana, SSBF, and Benmage lynch and in that order.

How did I jump to 3rd on your scum list?

Mostly some of the interaction with Percy and myself from today. You seem to be going out of your way to be obtuse in all your replies. Being dodgy around questions always wiggles the needle on my scumdar. Also, just to clarify, you're only really making a shift of one spot on my scum list, and I'd still put CSL higher on the list then you but the list you quoted is a lynch list and I've explained why CSL isn't currently on it (stabbing).

[Thor665]

You "changed lanes" with Drip (before you were in a scum cloud tied with Drip)

I didn't say you dodged anything, I said you were obtuse. Specifically off the top of my head I can recall the playstyle question Percy asked you, to which your reply was 'which playstyle?' You actually did this to a couple of Percy's points, basically asking for re-phrasing or clarification of questions prior to answering them. I recall similar energy from you in an exchange we had earlier in the day (I don't honestly remember the exchange topic - if it's really important to you I can go dig it up) The issue I had with it though, was again, this feeling of obtuseness with a required need for needing questions restated and clarified before you would answer them.

I'd expect town to be more comfortable answering things because they wouldn't be worried about being "caught" as it were. Your over-cautious nature and slowing down of the question process rings my scumdar.

[Thor665]

And in re-reading my commentary I see where you took dodgy to mean dodging. To clarify, dodgy is not synonymous with 'dodge'.

[Thor665]

Sorry, I thought being stabbed and voteless means that I couldn't help town get a Smurfing lynch.

Do you have any commentary on ongoing discussions? Theoretically your opinion can still be a functional tool if you choose to use it.

[Thor665]

And in re-reading my commentary I see where you took dodgy to mean dodging. To clarify, dodgy is not synonymous with 'dodge'.

Did you not use it in the context of elusive? That I was in some sense avoiding questions? If I am incorrect here, choose a better word to replace "dodgy" that I can better grasp your intent/meaning.

My intended definition is more akin to this one (from the link) "2. dodgy - marked by skill in deception" I also explained the scumtell I was feeling from it above, to help you understand where I was coming from.

I don't see anything wrong with clarification. Yeah If you got the time, rehighlight our exchange that was unsettling for you.

As noted, I explained specifically what part of your clarification attitude towards questions pinged me as scummy.

The rehighlight is here. Our white noise conversation. To be honest I'd forgotten some of our interchange afterwards which weakens the case, but my initial feel of it was that you were being really obtuse in a weird way. Probably an expansion of my negative feelings towards the vezo wagon and those who I thought were soft selling it, which I do think you were doing there to an odd amount.

[Thor665]

Right the interplay with Percy and asking him about my playstyle...Does his question even make sense.."adopt playstyle"...Who willfully thinks of adopting playstyles per game...I just play the game and various thinks affect it. RL and others actions specifically. What playstyle you using thor? What playstyle is anyone using...dumb question if you ask me. Dumb questions get dumb answers...the clarification was giving Percy the benefit of the doubt to clarify, which doesn't seem apparent.

I've known a couple of players (Fate and RayFrost come immediately to mind as probably the most well known) who have and do adopt different playstyles for different games. I do not drastically switch playstyles but I am aware that my current playstyle is quite different from my playstyle a few months ago and can discuss that shift intelligently (I'm waaaaay more gut now and faaaar less 'logic case is only case' then when I first started playing)

So, from my perspective - yes, it is odd that you seemed to find the question so bizarre. I'll consider your current tack on answering it though.

Do I still maintian my 4thclass 3rd lynch class rank?

You're certainly still 3rd lynch, since CSL isn't a lynch in my mind today and I think Drip is a better Vig target than lynch and have said as much. I still find you scummier then Macavity since I can at least verbalize some issues with you and haven't been able to do so with him yet (he just feels scummy, so the case there is pure gut at the moment). I'll admit to liking this current trend of activity (even if it is a bit hyper spam in the current situation) and will admit some of the obtuseness has been explained away (though I was reminded of the vezo angle). Probably on a pure scum list you're back to being tied with Drip at the moment in my mind. You're more scummy then Macavity and less so then dana, CSL, and SSBF.

[Thor665]

Alas I want to conclude (and maybe in a redundant way, forgive me) that my game in its entirety from a perspective of you is scummier than all these current players:

::List of everyone not on my top scum list or that is ranked lower then Benmage::

You have accurately assessed the concept of a top scum list. Yes, in general I feel you are scummier then all of those other players. Why, do you think I'm drastically overlooking something here?

I will clarify, that personally I think Richard is full of fail as is his game - but he's been cleared by other situations. (I just want to keep bringing this up in the vague hope that he'll decide to actually start participating again - or at the very least learn a few hints as to how *not* to behave as cleared town)

[Thor665]

@Thor

does seeing this mean anything to you?

Should it? This would make more sense to me as a question if I was making a big case on someone as scum for lurking (or, I guess, scum for over posting), which I don't recall doing. I've felt that Locke and Kinetic/didin were our local lurkers and that seems to bear out. I'm surprised that Drip is one of the highest posters here (the bulk of that posting is most assuredly not concurrent with my time here). Macavity is certainly not posting as often as I'd sort of thought, which might be some of the basis for the scummy feeling I have on him (though I don't particularly have as strong of one on the other two even bigger lurkers so there's got to be more to it then just this). Other then that I don't see what info you're either hoping for or driving at.

[Thor665]

(or, I guess, scum for over posting)

Where have you seen scum over post?

I haven't (well, to be exacting, I have, but didn't use it as a scumtell or as part of a scum case), t'was a joke while I was speculating why you wanted my commentary to that information. You still didn't say why it was important for me specifically to comment on your post counts.

I hope that doesn't mean you were haphazard in your read through when you replaced in.

I feel comfortable with my read through. Whether or not you feel comfortable with my read through is for you to decide.

Macavity is certainly not posting as often as I'd sort of thought, which might be some of the basis for the scummy feeling I have on him

So you find lurky-ness a scumtell?

To a degree. Depends how active/strategic I feel it is.

(though I don't particularly have as strong of one on the other two even bigger lurkers so there's got to be more to it then just this).

Which 2, Locke n diddin?

Yes.

[Thor665]

So it would be fair to say it ranges? Varying from instance to instance and being slight scummy?-To very scummy?

Lurking is a tell, like everything else in this game. They all have degrees that are adjusted for time, place, player, and feel of the game (and probably other variables I'm still learning). In short - yes.

Would you yield some scum points for Locke and diddin's lurkerness?

By 'yield' I presume you mean 'bestow'. I wouldn't particularly to diddin at the moment, since his low post count comes from predecessors who flaked, that seems null to me as I don't believe they flaked for scum reasons. For lurking to apply to him will take more game time to ascertain his posting habits. Locke seems okay on content when he does post, so I also wouldn't particularly try to peg him with a scummy lurking charge, though I do feel he's being a touch anti-town with how little he's commenting.

Well what occurred with this over posting scum? Were they flooding the game with small fluffy posts, were they of the top post counts, were they simply the most or more active people in game etc etc, some more details if you could.

One was Ythan, nuff said. The other was me - I was choosing to exploit my belief that people tend to overlook 'active' posters for at least the first few days of the game. I've also seen Fate do a high post content scum, but you seem upset when I cite him.

This is going somewhere eventually, yes? This seems like pointless chatter that is not helping us scumhunt, does not clarify either your or my own alignments, and is clogging the thread needlessly.

I didn't want to narrow your scope. Had I given direction you may have missed your suspicions on ML, or failed to confirm your locke/diddin sentiment. You also have new(or recollected) insight on dripp.

I'd already stated my suspicions of ML, all this post did was *maybe* give me some clarification of why I had those suspicions...it would have done this by me simply reading it. As for the rest...you're basically apparently listing how the post helped me sorta scumhunt. That doesn't actually reflect back on it being a functional post for you, nor does it explain why I was the player asked to comment upon the post (unless your inference is I'm muddled and lost and need help with organizing my scumreads)

[Thor665]

Now that there's a day left and people are already going, "Gee, I'm not that sure that dana is scum, but you know, there's no time left, so guess there's no choice!", I'm trying my second suspect. Because I'm Smurfing tired of watching players whose cases I'm lukewarm on get lynched at deadline.

Just to clarify - who do you think is waffling on the dana lynch thus far? I might have missed it but I'm pretty sure most of the "I belive the claim" people are on other wagons at the moment.

[Thor665]

Step forward

I'm liking the SSBF wagon, won't be getting on it just yet since I'm more focused on our free cop investigation. CSL certainly ranks up there with me, Macavistar as well. I also wouldn't mind seeing Unsight or Rifka investigated.

That all said, I'm still slightly horrified that we have vezok still amongst us. I am sick of dealing with this wagon and sick of the free ride it offers and also the fact he might be scum in addition to being VI (besides, it kind of looks like our other vig is slightly more accurate then I'd be, so I can spare him dealing with vezo at the very least).

Role Claim: Dayvig

My intent is to kill vezok unless town can explain to me a better kill option. My kill does not end the day, so basically town will get a free flip and a free investigation today. When I decide who to kill I will make the usual claim and final suspicions requests prior to vigging them.

[Thor665]

That is about what I just said, yes.

@Richard - Flavor: I'm Robb Stark the king in the North. My vig is from my pet wolf apparently.

It's why I believed your claim earlier versus Riav, my suspicion being the kings ended up with viggish themed powers.

[Thor665]

EBWOP - first line was @CSL.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor - was the day vig claim brought on by simple hatred of the Vezo wagon, or did you just think that this would be a good time to drop the claim (given the investigation event and all)? Really seems odd to just drop it out of nowhere, at least from my perpspective.

It was done for a couple of reasons.

1. With the cop investigation I was able to turn this into a high information day for town.
2. I do hate the Vezo wagon...I have continuously commented on how distracting it is for town and how his 'too scummy to be scum' situation is distressing to me.
3. With 3 or so kills a night I would rather get my power out and used now while it can help speed up investigations rather then hoping I live till late enough to have a functional target to pick.

When do you think I should have "dropped it"?

[Thor665]

Vote: SSBF

as most worthy.

Per mod instructions we don't get to vote for who is most worthy till the end of the stepping forward week.

As currently parsed this is a regular lynch vote on SSBF.

I'm going to sleep on this one.

[Thor665]

Ah, sorry.

Well, at the moment I'm buying the apology because the logic behind the SSBF investigation is functional and I had to re-read Eddard's post when it was first made before I felt I had the situation grasped.

Let's AtE.

It's so funny it hurts and makes me cry. Locke's thing on Percy better be made of win with chocolate sprinkles - that's all I'm saying.

@Thor665 (#1420): Your Day Vigilante claim is good, but I'd like to know this:

1. How many times are you able to shoot? I ask this because you claimed the role, but have not used it during Day 1 or Day 2.

Seriously? Yeah, definite lynch or cop scan today.

Percy: I have information that indicates you're anti-town. I'd like a claim now to see if there's any other possible explanation for what I know.

Thor: I would advise you hold off from vigging anyone until this plays out.

I'm in no dramatic rush, though vezo is working hard on me. I'm excited to see where this goes.

Ok, I'm going to just read today's stuff until someone actually comes forward and replies to what I said.

Here's my reply - either read up, or just start responding to the new stuff. Tell us which you're doing and accept whatever flak you get from the choice as your due. I see no reason at all to weigh in on how you should handle a catch up read, why do you not have an idea in your own head for what is the best way for town to catch up?

[Thor665]

People use the word maybe without its exact correct definition. Just like chainsaw. Both yes are reliant on flips. But you can still say buddying. You are backing him up. Thats buddy in my book. What word would you use to describe it?

More importantly, and not cleanly addressed by you, what meaning did you intend for the word to have when you used it?

[Thor665]

My intent is to kill vezok unless town can explain to me a better kill option.

Strong agree. Go Grey Wind, get 'im, boy!

I'll want to hear back from Locke first (dangerous to expediency, I know), though barring him having absolute proof on you I don't see anyone except Vezo getting a face full of wolf today. I don't think we'll lose much from having a delayed vezo lynch. If he's scum we'll have some functional discussion and if he's town we'll mostly sit around and grump about his play for a few posts.

[Thor665]

^^^

Missed an entire page, dorf!

[Thor665]

Percy is not Melisandre. Percy is Asha Greyjoy.

Thor, you up for a vig?

I like being a scum killing vig, so yeah, I'm up for this.

Daykill: Percy

Great job.
Locke is my new bff.

This is so true, you have a lucky horseshoe up in your colon for sure.

[Thor665]

^^^

Represents a belief in enough proof.

[Thor665]

The Percy death post alone is making me more interested in actually reading the books - sounds like some interesting flavor to the stories.

I am liking the flow of attention towards Rifka, and she certainly remains within my list of people to be investigated. I'll also now add vezo to that list for obvious reasons (and will mention specifically that if it clears him he should try to not emulate Richard)

I will also add that SSBF is at L-3. At the very least we do not wish the day to end prior to us getting the investigation. FYI for everyone.

[Thor665]

unvote
Vote SSBF
I got saved by a miracle. Yay for me.

I just discovered something amazing;

It's possible to be a town vig, kill scum on your first shot, and still be left feeling terrible.

[Thor665]

You'd think with 4 dead scum that at some point we'd start running out of people competing to be scummy.

SSBF is very high on my list for lynching. I understand Mina's arguments for perhaps wanting to investigate a top suspect, but I'm happier with targeting someone who is harder for me to read. I actually agree with the logic for the hasdlkhsglkahsad investigation. I'm still including Unsight, Macavistar, CSL, and Rifka as all good choices as well. I know I mentioned Vezo earlier but I now have to admit I'm starting to edge around to just wanting him dead one way or another at this point. If he's town I officially hate him more then tapioca at this stage.

I'd like to lynch SSBF and don't support any conversation that doesn't involve him being dead or Worship scanned at the end of day.

I'm suspicious the voting stage is going to be one of those silent votes (like the stabbing yesterday) so I personally advocate we come to a bit of consensus prior to the thread lock. I'd probably advocate Macavistar and hasdsdfkajg as my top two picks from my own list presuming we lynch SSBF. If either of them are scum I'd like to know so we can kill them, and conversely I like the way they post and investigate (I'll clarify the new half of Macavity does this for me more then the predecessor) - so if they're town I'd like to know I can trust their reads more.

I'm meh on the Mina scan since my personal read on her thus far is townish. I think that covers all the serious contenders that have been mentioned.

[Thor665]

diddin's avatar switchout made me think I lost another entire page there for a second. I now officially hate him as well

[Thor665]

I agree that we should be investigating someone who has scum vibes, but is harder to read. hascow is a decent way to go or making us confirmed town is good. I kind of disagree with your perspective on vezo in the sense that having a confirmed town VI is actually a very bad thing for scum. They can't leave the person alive until LYLO and forcing their hand to kill a VI potentially saves a more useful person for later in the game. tl;dr cutting down on mislynches is a good thing.

I see your logic, but I only can emotionally deal with one Richard a game. Two confirmed players sitting around going 'herp-da-derp' would probably be akin to putting a screw into my head every day of gameplay. In other words; I already feel we have one cleared VI at the moment, why not get a cleared non VI next? You and cow have a lot of scum vibe on you to a couple of players, confirming or removing that vibe would be quite functional to town and if we have to do a mislynch I don't see why mislynching one of you is somehow intrinsically superior to mislynching vezo. Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

I guess VIs don't bother me as much as they do you. Sure they're semi-useless, but I think there are enough competent players (some basically confirmed, you and benmage for example) that we can figure out who the scums are and we only really need the VIs to vote in the appropriate spots.

Let me put it this way to explain why vezo is probably under my skin more then the usual VI.

He has said (paraphrase) 'I am useless to town, town needs to kill me.'

If he's town, then he's telling the truth (and needs to replace out)
If he's scum then this is all lies and he needs to die.

I want him to replace out or I want him dead. I see no value in clearing him if he's staying in his slot.

[Thor665]

Light a candle for: Macavitar

Basically a player who has been lurking in the periphery of my scum cloud since the game began and I still can't fully manage to put words to the feeling. With the new hydra in place I have found his posts much more interesting and insightful. I could also probably support haskdslajhagl (looking for Lannistar King'sguard) or Rifka (difficult neutral read) if people got excited in that direction.

[Thor665]

Let's investigate cow.

You've noted that you're useless to town and probably need to be killed.

Why do you not simply replace out?

[Thor665]

Here's a clip from that game from Blue (town) commenting on Powerrox (scum) [for those who care - vezo did call Powerrox as well]

tl;dr Powerrox it boils down to this. You've added nothing to this game, voted for terrible reasons, and just repeated back to us everything the people who posted before you said.

Now...who could I possibly apply this to in this game?

I don't feel you're playing in the same manner this game as that game. Do you?

[Thor665]

I usually don't read walls if the topic bores me or I don't think it's relevant information at the time. I fail to see why that should make your posts feel like regurgitated nothingness.

Why'd you skim your role PM? Was it too much of a wall?
Why do you think town should kill you? If you're scum this is AtE, if you're town...I don't even know why town would say this.

[Thor665]

I could also probably support haskdslajhagl (looking for Lannistar King'sguard)

[Thor665]

You recall correctly. Do you not think there are Lannisters in the Kingsguard, or are you debating betwixt and between which member to investigate?

[Thor665]

We'll worry about it during massclaim (in which case a doc gives us a confirmed not-Greyjoy or jailkeeper/RB gives us a potential Greyjoy).

Why would a Jailkeeper / RB give us a potential Greyjoy? If the working theory (which I support, BTW) is that the Greyjoy N1 kill was blocked it makes ZERO sense for that person creating the block to be a Greyjoy. I’d say in either case (Doc or Blocker) we have a confirmed not-Greyjoy.

Think more along them declaring their targets and I think you'll be more in tune with what Mina was driving at.

Douse candle: Macavitar
Light a candle for : hasdgfas

I'm down with this.

[Thor665]

Vote: Super Smash Bros. Fan

Me no likey play by tiny blue man.

[Thor665]

Rifka, why did you light a candle for yourself?

This question is full of win with sprinkles. I think only myself and maybe one other player (Benmage?) even had Rifka on our 5-6 names we would be okay with investigating lists. Also, she's certainly felt like she was drifting in the middle of the pack overall as far as people's town/scum take on her. I'm not sure what prompted her trying to lead a charge for her own investigation.

[Thor665]

@Benmage - I'll somewhat disagree here insomuch as you should also recall that we had a vengeance Vig as well. I'm thinking this game has a bit of heavy viggish flavor to it.

Unvote: Super Smash Bros. Fan

If he's scum he's already dead one way or the other. If he's SK then he's at least a pet SK for a while and we just make sure to lynch him a bit later in. If he's telling the truth I don't want to lynch him.

Meh, now I have to go re-read to see who I want to vote next. Leaning Macavitar, Unsight, or Rifka at the moment, will go back and see which tickles my fancy.

SSBF can always kill vezo for us tonight, I wouldn't cry about that.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I forgot the hired assassin as well. Vig heavy, a'yup.

I think Locke can scan whoever he thinks it is best to scan.

[Thor665]

Meh. I was pushed along to a lynch once for claiming single shot vig when my role was one shot vig. I'm pretty neutral on the town vs. innocent thing as a scumtell.

No one likes pet SK?
No one believes possibility of Vig?

SSBF is at L-2, just fyi to the vote train.

[Thor665]

Forsooth and verily sayeth I. (for the third time now.)

[Thor665]

At least from a fluff perspective I now better understand your and cow's issues.

We have already established fakeclaims are almost assuredly part of scum's repertoire. I see no reason the same wouldn't apply for an SK.

You're basically trying to outguess the mod at this point. If he made it the fakeclaim the mod probably thought of it as at least a functional fake claim. Yes? I'm not sure I'd want to lynch on flavor suspicion alone.

[Thor665]

For two reasons.

1. He was telling the truth and is the Vig - in this case he wants to help town win.

2. He's the SK and wants us to believe he's the Vig - in this case he's hoping he'll get us to trust him.

In neither situation does it help him if he doesn't kill who we ask because he knows we'll kill him. Do you have any pressing evidence that shows we should kill him today or that you shouldn't die tonight? Because I'm missing it, so you probably should try to point it out.

[Thor665]

Aren't you still voting SSBF?
Who do you think is scum?

Also, your previous post *did* look like you were saying he was "bad" and wouldn't listen to town. Now he's apparently a foolish scum or a poor noble Vig who will die in the night phase? Can you think of a better person for him to kill before his inevitable death then you? Earlier you indicated it was a good plan for town to kill you, why shouldn't we kill you now?

[Thor665]

Question to everyone: how many scum do you think the Greyjoys/Lannisters have? We have 2 dead on each side right now, from 26 total

Isn't the usual concept about 25% being anti town in some manner? I'd probably expect three per team with an independent thrown in, but this is my first large game so I certainly claim no expertise in this.

[Thor665]

About the kill choices, I can kill whoever I want to kill, it is my own choice.

I don't think you understand the concept of pet SK.

Presuming we buy that you're really the Vig, why not kill whom town directs?

That said, I am willing to kill either vezokpiraka or CSL, leaning toward CSL.

How come CSL?

I'm pretty down for either Unsight of Rifka as lynch, both make my toes curl. Will read them sometime this weekend to figure out actual preference between the two.

[Thor665]

That makes sense, and certainly clarifies a need to either verify his Vig claim or kill him to death sooner rather then later.

My counter is I don't want to lynch him today if who he's going to kill is vezo or CSL tonight. Does that make sense as well? Neither slot is very helpful to town right now, and removing them will be a boon in my opinion - third kill or no.

[Thor665]

Vote: Rifka Viveka

I promised to go back and read this weekend, but I'll actually cower in my semi-confirmedness and note that I didn't because partly I was working and partly I was just partying late with friends - and what sleep I could wrangle was more important to me then reading isos, which I loathe.

This is mostly gut and partly based off of who is voting what.

I'll probably still try to get a reread in on some isos later, but I want the vote out there and I want more conversation as regards the Unsight/Rifka question which appears to be before us. Town feels slightly pedantic today, I'm not sure if that's because we're being brilliant together or if we've got blinders on, I figure more debate won't hurt either way.

@vezo - bwuh? Mina? Any particular reason for the vote shift?

[Thor665]

Actually, Richard, you're roughly fourthing it.

As long as you're feeling a bit like a pot, any particular focus for the Unsight vote?

[Thor665]

Meh, personally I'm fine with the vezo or CSL list as currently stands.

I'm not really buying into the Unsight wagon at the moment. I find her scummy but the wagon feels a little too...I dunno. It feels like everyone just has blinders on and is voting Unsight because other people are voting Unsight - and a lot of the people voting Unsight are not exactly on my 'sooper-dooper townies' list.

@Axel - what about 1-2 sentences? If you can't really put into words your suspicions that's kinda weird.

I guess I have to re-read diddin. I remember thinking of him as more townie earlier though I agree with Locke that his current play has felt more skittish. I'd still not mind lynching Rifka, anyone remember her?

[Thor665]

Super Smash Bros. Fan (3) -

Unsight, Hasdgfas, Mikujin

Please re-justify these votes.

[Thor665]

Of course you're advancing the logic that he is lying, that goes without saying.

But what Locke was driving at was that you commented how SSBF was still scum - how do you justify this considering he's killed scum, one of each scum faction we're aware of? Either you're advancing a belief in a third scum team or you believe SSBF killed a scumbuddy - which is it and why?

[Thor665]

3rd option: He's lying about his kills.

ScumSSBF: Swiggity sweet, I'mma lie about my kills by claiming that i'mma Vig and then town won't kil me!
Town: You're the Vig who has killed scum twice? We LUVS you, no lynch today!
ScumSSBF: Yaaays! Imma da smartest and the bestest scum evah!

Later that night

Real Vig: Kill: SSBF, I'm the bestester Vig evah!

Next Day

Town: Yaaaay, we LUVS the Vig!

@Unsight: Seriously?

[Thor665]

1. He's scum and is part of the team that hacks stuff - we now control an entire team's kill targets and as soon as we lynch part of this hidden third team then we know SSBF is scum - win for town.
2. He's scum and isn't part of the team that hacks stuff - that team now controls when/if SSBF is lynched and they don't like him very much and have no reason to protect him - win for town.
3. he's unkillable at night and is a SK - we already suspect this as a possibility, and it has little to do with you calling him scum

Maybe I'm being dense, but I just don't follow the logic. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

This is mostly gut and partly based off of who is voting what.

Thor - could you explain what you mean by "based off of who is voting what"? I don't understand the context.

I don't feel like going back and looking, but as I recall basically both CSL and vezo were voting for Unsight at that time and formed half the wagon, and people were talking like it was the runaway win wagon of the day. I didn't like having the wagon of the day 50% dictated by ruddy vezo's and CSL's lynch preference. Meanwhile Locke was on the Rifka wagon alone. I had said I had uneasy reads on both Rifka and Unsight - I chose Rifka partly because of who was voting for what lynch between those two wagons.

[Thor665]

I didn't like having the wagon of the day 50% dictated by ruddy vezo's and CSL's lynch preference.

How was (or is) the wagon dictated 50% by those knuckleheads?

As I said in the post you quoted from, there was a point they were 50% of the votes on the wagon. I believe wagons start to gain momentum and credibility as votes accrue. Hence, by the addition of their votes at that time it gave a credit boost to the Unsight wagon at a critical juncture.

[Thor665]

L-3. I unvoted to ensure Mina posts her big post she promised us. :/

I apologize for the spamminess, Thor am dumb, but;

YO MINA!!! This is relevant.

[Thor665]

I've now seen Mina's writeup. I'm not much of a fan for "overdefensiveness" as a scum tell. Pretty neutral on hassdsk;lahg;'s response to such, especially in light of his holy cow status.

@hasdsspoisafh - are you still content with your vote as currently stands?

I'd like to see some motion from the non-voters, I'm pretty sure we're looking at the bulk of the information we're going to get today so I'd love to see you take a stand on someone. Same goes for those who are currently alone on a wagon, start selling it or get off it.

[Thor665]

I'm with Locke on this one - I really don't see why or how Unsight became the wagon of win. I see as much of a case on Rifka as her, and no one is even talking Rifka. I've been suspecting both slots for a while and for each of them I'm basically a muddle of odd gut reads and a feeling of their connection to other players, I really don't understand the swell in one direction I'm seeing here.

@Richard - if being a confirmed townie is boring, you could always replace out and let someone who likes playing as a confirmed townie come in and scumhunt; just a thought.

[Thor665]

Can someone point me to the Rifka case? I do not remember seeing it.

Personally I don't think there is a Rifka case (not that I've really seen an Unsight case either)

Looking back I'd say for me it sums up thusly;
gut
lighting a candle for herself for odd reasons
issues around Percy and SSBF
Who helped push the Unsight wagon vs. Rifka wagon (though Macivitar had to go and spoil my milk here slightly)
and a bit more gut as a coward's way to make this list appear larger.

With Unsight I think it boils down to roughly the same (though her SSBF is third scum team spiel was especially headdesk worthy). I'm mostly bewildered why the one wagon has so much attention and the other so little. I consider the scumminess of the two slots functionally equivalent and so I don't really find Unsight any less scummy then Rifka and I don't grok why Unsight is *more* scummy which presumably most of the people voting Unsight do believe.

[Thor665]

This is because you think the visible connections from Unsight are more exploitable for info then the connections from Rifka?

[Thor665]

Eh, I trust Locke to be on top of getting a lynch and frankly I agree that I'd still like to see Mikujin make a call between the wagons, his sitting silently on SSBF has been pretty functionally useless ever since enough of us decided SSBF wasn't being lynched today (Unsight I also find useless, but I don't foresee much insight coming from her choice between the two wagons )

SSBF promising a hammer but not actively tossing in behind either wagon is pretty meh as well, would prefer him to get on a wagon.

[Thor665]

I was totally bamboozled by xvart - boo me!

Scum is scared by possible protective roles - yay us!

Vezo is vanilla...herp da derp. Still happy he's gone.

@SSBF - why not CSL, previously he'd been your glowing intended target of win.

[Thor665]

All of that information was available to you yesterday when you were intending to kill CSL - what changed?

[Thor665]

Also - just occured to me; vezo's princess thing was him telling the truth

[Thor665]

@Mikijun - if you have so little confidence in your info why did you bring it up? I'm not sure I see the town advantage here.

@SSBF - When you get back I'd still like to hear what prompted you to vezo over CSL.

@Magna = because he had previously indicated a different target priority and his 'reasons' for switching were nothing new. Als - if you support FOSing today...why the vote?

@Richard - you don't understand the SSBF case??? ...I hate you.

In short - he's suspicious enough to have been taken to L-1, he's claimed Vig 'who hacks' . Do you believe he's a Vig or a SK (or go with Unsight's 'third scum team' theory)?

[Thor665]

@SSBF - why shouldn't you be lynched today? A two lynch day seems an optimal one to verify you, and if you're Vig you've killed 2 scum and 1 VI so you've pretty much been an awesome Vig already. Seems pretty smart to kill you now to clear the SK fears - thoughts?

[Thor665]

@Unsight - you have absolutely no town reads that aren't predicated on a power claim or alignment scan?

[Thor665]

I'm thinking we're all slowing down on posting because we don't have enough excitement in our universe.

Vote: CSL

I'll admit everyone with votes on them looks like a pretty tasty lynch option today. Probably the only one I'm uncertain about is SSBF, but I'm really conflicted on my read there and don't have a strong opinion yet. I think I would like to see CSL be one of our flips today - he's playing like Richard without even being semi-cleared like Richard, and I almost want to lynch Richard for how he's playing, so I'm thinking let's make sure CSL is in the lynch discussion today.

[Thor665]

I'd love to see someone grow a set and break our CSL and Axel ties. I think everyone agrees on the primary lynch, but we should probably be puzzling out the secondary one.

Personally I think I'd rather rope up Unsight then Axel, but CSL takes preference to both for me.

[Thor665]

What do you think of CSL and Axel - your color coding hasn't clued me in as to which of them you may or may not consider scummier.

[Thor665]

Egads, as games get closer to Lylo they always become so much work.

Initial feelings;

@Mina - to answer your question, I probably would have suspected either a Cop, Watcher, or Tracker of some stripe as those are really the only roles that say "hay, found scummorz!". If it's a straight Cop Macsumitar would have already been screwed, and with either of the other two he's relatively obligated to claim targets honestly (certainly the final one)

Biggest scum point against Mac - laying low and not name claiming and requesting earlier and target of night kill.
Biggest town point in favor - large balls to nameclaim your target as a character who had not nameclaimed and thus may or may not be in the game

@FLUFF AWARE PLAYERS - I'd like to see a bit more discussion about the fluff relevance of this Brienne claim thing. Is it "safe" to assume Brienne was in the game? (e.g. is it like claiming a Princess Leia in a Star Ways theme?)

Mina's reaction to MoI's defense of Mac is interesting - there's something odd going on amongst them. MoI's defense feels honest enough to me and I think he made a good point or two - Mina's aggressive attack against him is odd because it's not like there are scum pairs left out there, we're really looking at two solo scum, so why get so itchy about someone defending someone else?

[Thor665]

I'm fine asking the dense questions;

@Cow, read on Mina?

I've been town on her all game until her vitriolic attack on MoI, so I'd love a bit of reassurance.

@Mina - it sounds like you're advancing Macavitar - Lannister and MoI - Greyjoy, am I getting that correct?

@Richard - I'm liking the little spurt of activity we're actually getting out of you. What are your thoughts on the final two scum? What's your read on the MoI/Mina interaction. We are now officially at the time where more silence from you will make me call you repeated hurtful names in endgame.

@Macavitar - thanks for the link to another game. But *specifically* what did you see as the negative to requesting a Brienne claim? What would scum have done to screw town over?
Also, what are your thoughts about that roleblock/jailing/whatever that happened to you the night you investigated Has? Who do you think did it, to whom, and why? I'm tending to agree that it's a stretch to believe so would love to hear a story told I can sink some teeth into.

[Thor665]

My thought was watcher or tracker. It was a fairly explicit claim.

[Thor665]

@Magna - to make sure I understand where you're coming from. Your contention is that Macavitar is not scummy and that Mina is scummy?

[Thor665]

I'm not sure how else to say this; your use of the word vitriolic so much after I used it is twinging *my* gut. (adjectives as scumtells - brilliant!)

I tend to accept Cow's read as I have had a town read on Mina for a long while, and to have another player (confirmed town, at that) with such a strong read of town on her makes me believe my own read is correct as well.

I actually do agree that I have something of a townish belief in Mac's claim because it is kind of gutsy (and frankly a scum fakeclaim that confirms a pro town name seems unlikely to me). I'm just having a hard time believing he was jailkept or roleblocked the night he targeted hasoasiulklkgs - what are your thoughts on that?

[Thor665]

I'll admit I'm kinda leaning towards an Unsight lynch myself - I find that I agree with most of what Magna is mumbling about as concerns Mac. I also think a scum fake claim that contains a nameclaim of town is kinda unlikely

@hassaoiuewkn - any deeper thoughts yet?

[Thor665]

I am really uneasy with the whole Macavitar lynch at the moment. I'm probably just spinning in WIFOM territory - but the Brienne claim still seems like a solid stretch for scum to have.

I cannot believe the mod would give scum a fakeclaim with a townie nameclaim in it - does anyone disagree with this?

I also am lost (fluffwise) as to the extent of the gambit here. If he's scum he had to do this claim himself. Maybe he felt a bit busted by hassadoiaurt's investigation and opted to go big or get lynched, but clearly after the Brienne claim he had to know that unless someone else claimed Brienne he was hosed. I've only heard Mina comment on the Brienne as likely role name concept. I'd like to hear anyone else with fluff thoughts chime in.

[Thor665]

I'm not becoming any smarter sitting around staring at this screen. Weren't we waiting for somebody to do something? I seem to recall that in a conversation somewhere. Somebody was supposed to be coming back with reads that would be brilliant and wonderful. Have we had those yet?

If so I'm game to hammer Mac - the target of a nightkill at least puts him as a likely 50/50 of being scum, and though I see possible town behind his claim it's difficult to buy he was the block on the night he targeted Has.

[Thor665]

You're demanding a paraphrase of the mod cleared player's PM?

I'm hoping this makes more sense to me later then it does right now.

[Thor665]

I understand what you're requesting and am not looking for clarification, yet.

I might demand it after Cow does the paraphrase.

[Thor665]

@CSL - role fishing a slot that has already role claimed?

[Thor665]

I think that's a pretty inconceivable conclusion at this point, has.

[Thor665]

I'm excited, I finally got a town vibe off Richard. Only took 92 pages.

[Thor665]

Despite the snarkiness I can understand where this is coming from. Besides Richard the two closest things to confirmed Town we have are Cow (100% confirmed) and Thor (mostly confirmed by proven Dayvig ability). I really am surprised that these two aren’t leading the discussion today.

That's actually probably a good point. I've just been being lazy - though I will note every time I ask a fluff question I never really get an answer - so at all of you.

@hasdafohasdldf

The only other player I'd want to lynch is Unsight - but I've had gut scum on both of them (Unsight and Mac) for a while and the targeting of a NK target is pretty damning to my mind for Mac. I actually don't feel the genuine energy you and Mina seem to get from him, to my mind the only thing clearing him is if you think he got roleblocked the night he targeted you. There's a certain scum risk to making that claim the way he did since there was a limited number of name claims left to reveal at that point. The problem is that I tend to play better games early on when there's less info available as I've noticed I have a bad habit of going into WIFOM tailspins since I love the idea of double and triple plays.

The real question for Macavitar as I see it is this;

If he's scum then he decided to go with a fake claim that he personally made up instead of a safe claim that was mod provided.
If he's town then it's a little hard to figure out who roleblocked him and why (I'm terrible at looking for breadcrumbs, but I did look and didn't really see any suggestion that he was tagged by Ben or xvart)

Does everyone else agree with the fluff logic Locke used to clear diddin? We're certain diddin has claimed his actual role name but I'd love to hear more fluff consideration as to the relevancy of the clearing since if we can agree it's not a scum name then we can mark him off our suspect pool and if we disagree then he should be added to it.

[Thor665]

The real question for *determining if we should lynch* Macavitar as I see it is this;

So the answer is yes, but it's not a question directed at you.

[Thor665]

You know what, I don't think I want to see Macavitar lynched today. If he's scum he deserves to go further for that brilliant claim, and really I just don't see that claim coming from scum. It's not a safe claim and frankly I could buy that maybe he was roleblocked.

I'm not sure about MoI - I've had a slight town there most of the game and I'm not sure I understand the case there (make that - I'm sure I don't grok that case).

CSL is still...what he is. Unsight I've been skeevy on for a while.

Vote: Unsight

I don't claim to be that brilliant with this vote here - I feel a little lost with the whole two scum team mechanic since this is my first game with them, and I could really probably go for any of the other three. But I don't think Mac is the right lynch anymore.

[Thor665]

CSL - at what point did Mac's claim become believable to you? I looked at your iso and didn't really see the shift at any point. In fact you sort of seemed to be coasting and requesting that the day should end rather then deliberating on Mac's claim - thoughts?

[Thor665]

How did everyone go from "Let's lynch Macavitar NOW, so hurry up and let me hammer, dammit!" to "Yeah, Macavitar is obviously town."

Because I changed my mind and because Richard and CSL are sheep or scum in some combination.

What I love is that I was rabidly anti-Macavitar when Cow first revealed and a few people had doubts. And then when Macavitar's lynch looked inevitable, I started freaking out that he might be innocent. And now that all of a sudden, he's no longer the vote leader, I'm paranoid that I've been played. I'm spinning in circles of WIFOM.

Yes, probably all the town players are - we get it. Move on please.

Thor, why did you have a scumread on Macavitar before?

Gut. Sorry, but that's the extent of the case. I'll note that, as I even said when I made the vote, it's not like I have that much more of a brilliant 'case' on Unsight. I used to go through the effort of making big cases, now I just go on gut and tells that I can point out at the time - I've (sadly) discovered that repetition and confidence actually makes cases better then evidence and examples. I'm, unfortunately, not high on confidence right now, so I'm mostly trying to get people talking till I can spot something to glom onto.

Also, I hate hate hate hate HATE comments like "Well, if he's scum, then he deserves the win, because he did something that only a smart scum player would do." Smart players get scum role PMs too, damn it!

Actually, I think my message was that the claim was so clever that he deserves the win - the inference being it was clever because it convinced me I didn't want to vote for him.

Also, Mina, I understand your frustration but just listen to your overall commentary, it reads like this; "Oh, I can't believe we're not going to lynch Mac because he may be scum, but he may not - I'm confused. I have a town read on Unsight but Unsight has been playing a terrible town game. CSL is hard to read, he's having cognitive dissonance - is that a scumtell for him? I'm not sure!"

You also appear to really want an MoI lynch but aren't even voting him yourself yet, allow me to quote you briefly - WTF?

[Thor665]

Oh, by the way, I'm now as confident as hasdsapfo that Mina is town.

CSL
Unsight
Mac
MoI

^^^
In no particular order - today's lynch is one of these players, that's a 50/50 to get it right from my perspective. I'm of a lower opinion o CSL now with his vote shift - the thing is with no scumbuddies left I'm not sure it's the same sort of scumtell since CSLscum would be in the same 'shot in the dark' concept as the rest of town. I'm neutral on the MoI lynch because I have had a town read there all game - my gut reads have been pretty good this game, but invariably some of them are wrong - so I guess I'll wait for the Mina case to see if it happens to mention anything that excites me to the idea. I'm still leaning towards a belief that Mac is town at this stage, I disagree with Mina about how "safe" the mason-esque role is and will note that he had to clear a coupe of logic hurdles to even make the claim as functional as it is at the moment. Other then that I've got nothing.

We need more Richard and has in this thread. And by that I mean actual opinions, not Richard's usual modus operandi thus far.

[Thor665]

I'm okay with the plan, though I think we know how it will end no matter which alignment Mac is.

Any particular reason you prefer MoI?

[Thor665]

What about diddin as possible Lannister?

Is there a case for him besides the name claim? I think the name claim alone suggests he's town.

[Thor665]

I still think the diddin case is largely the name claim - if we're going to lynch on claims and investigation results I'd choose to lynch you over diddin. He's not on the option block today to my mind regardless of what percentages you think are or are not correct from the choices that are up there..

[Thor665]

...okay...? So other then a quibble with my conclusion and/or math skills is this going somewhere?

[Thor665]

If all of you could have only helped me by acting really townish if you were town I'd be having a much easier time of it

[Thor665]

I'm willing to advance the concept that I believe you are lying about being VT - it's a crazy concept but I think Mafia do it occasionally.

Where do you think votes should be instead and why?

[Thor665]

Except your logic holds equally true if I were to change out all occurrences of Macavitar in that second paragraph and replace them with Unsight. The logic is predicated on Mac being scum, and I'm not sure I agree with that anymore.

Aren't you going to explain to me how I obviously need to believe your VT claim also? That sort of seemed to be part of your defense earlier and I'm still confused as to why, are you advancing a defense based on PR ratio in the game or do you believe scum never claim VT or something?

[Thor665]

Could someone remove his vote from Unsight? I'd rather not leave Mac in a position where he can hammer an end the day at any time.

I see people make these requests so often - I have yet to see scum come leaping in to pounce on the ready wagon like a dog on a pork chop.

I'll humor the request, however, I just had to be difficult about it.

Unvote: Unsight

[Thor665]

RE: diddin case; You offered up some self arguments against your case even as you made it - and it seemed to predicate on him changing a scum meta or somesuch. I'm pretty 'meh' on that case. I'd rather lynch CSL or Unsight over diddin.

I still think Magna looks pretty town.

I still think hasdsoptelkm and Richard should kindly show up and actually say something. I am going to have to rethink that "has/Thor/Richard best budz 4evah!" tattoo on my left inner thigh now.

[Thor665]

My opinion is that there are too many "pro town" players left to accept much likelihood of scum cross killing, our best hope is to have scum both target the same pro town player. I think that not taking that into account is skewing your results to suggest no lynch as more beneficial then it really is.

With that in mind odds are that;
no lynch = 5/1/1 or maybe 6/1/1
lynch town = 4/1/1 or maybe 5/1/1
lynch scum = 6/1

So lynching today gives us both a worst and best case of available scenarios.
I don't see how risk of a possible 4/1/1 is worth it for the relatively assured gain of a 5/1/1.

To my mind scum are just going to kill players we won't be lynching in any case, so why not lynch and hope we get it right? Unless we actually think scum will do us a favor and kill from the suspect pool...which I don't.

[Thor665]

Mina, Richard, you and myself are definitely off the board in my mind.
diddin and Mac are both in 'interesting claim' territory.

If diddin is scum he was willing to admit his actual role name - which seems ballsy for scum to do
If Mac is scum he was willing and able to quickly contrive an odd claim instead of using the pre-built mod fakeclaim - which seems ballsy.

MoI is in a gut town read pool.

Unsight and CSL are in my likely suspects pool.

It feels too 'easy' if both CSL and Unsight are the scum. I'll admit on re-read that Unsight didn't quite scream scum to me but I'm really not sure how I feel about that as decent players do become scum. Conversely CSL is pretty bad, but bad players are town. MoI is all gut from me, so I could just be really wrong there but I've never felt any of the mega cases on him.

I'd rather lynch CSL or Unsight over diddin or Mac.

I'd rather lynch diddin over Mac.

I'd probably be willing to lynch MoI but I'd need to hear some sort of evidence to win me over.

What are your thoughts?

@Mina
@Richard

Feel free to chime in here - I'd rather have the four of us decide then count on the rest of them.

[Thor665]

@diddin - do you or don't you trust/believe Mac? I ask because you're currently voting the same way he is right now and you seemed pretty sketchy towards him - what are you thinking?

@Mina - I officially am not inviting you to my birthday party anymore - please get in here with thoughts on the current situation you haven't posted anything substantive since Sunday. Shame on you!

@has - I'm down with a CSL lynch.

Vote: CSL

[Thor665]

Again, I think CSL is better off as a lynch for tomorrow than for today, because I don't think he can be a Lannister.

::shrug:: then get in here and vote Unsight and I'll happily follow that wagon, I just did the shift for hasdaoifhml's sake on the presumption he has a better feel for Unsight then CSL and I'm pretty indifferent between them.

I'll accept your point about how I'm dealing with the dual scumteam question, but this was my first large game and my first time dealing with dual scum teams so I'll happily admit my issues there (and have already admitted them).

Look forward to your post with conclusions in it.

[Thor665]

This is the most indecisive, rudderless town ever. It's hilarious. We're all waiting for someone to turn the game around with a brilliant piece of analysis so we can blindly sheep him or her. Or for all the unconfirmed townies to act townish. Seriously, is it

that

hard to look town when you're town?

I will note I've actually come out with my lynch preferences and a vote. I was rudderless earlier, not now. Frankly all of your, 'oh ye poor lost town' posts when you aren't able to come out with a serious order for who you'd prefer to see lynched is starting to just grate on me.

[Thor665]

@Mina - wasn't Benny doing that on Day 3? He would have needed to do it Day 2 for it to be relevant. (I only was able to iso the Day 3 occurrence)

[Thor665]

I will also note I'm not likely to be around a computer at deadline, so if anyone has anything brilliant to want to shift me off CSL or is excited that I'm supporting a CSL lynch then today is the day to say something about it.

[Thor665]

hasaopdjfdpsok seemed interested in CSL, his lack of support with me on that one does make me sad.

Unvote: CSL
Vote: Unsight

I am still fine with this one.

Edit - and that puts her at L-1

[Thor665]

Conversely he may have just sent it in prior to his departure.

@CSL - why all the Richard sheeping?

I'm leaning towards Mac as the lynch today.

[Thor665]

Thor, what's changed since yesterday that would make you want to lynch me? With only 2 possible Greyjoys, isn't that the right play today?

Basically you're back in play because, quite frankly, I think Mina died for a reason. She was obsessed with you and Magna, I tend to believe that you or Magna are scum and wanted her gone.

I see some point with the Greyjoy logic you're presenting and will consider it.

What are your thoughts on diddin hopping on you the instant I expressed potential suspicion?

[Thor665]

Vote: CSL

I think we're all just tired and wound up in wine puzzles at this point.

I buy into the 'let's lynch a Greyjoy' plan.
I find Magna more townish and CSL more scummy.

[Thor665]

I buy into the 'let's lynch a Greyjoy' plan.
I find Magna more townish and CSL more scummy.

Whut?

[Thor665]

Gut.

Because we lynched other people instead.

[Thor665]

Any particular reason you clear diddin?

[Thor665]

@Richard - I think we're correct insomuch as either CSL or MoI are the Greyjoy. As far as which of the pair is the smarter vote I'm basing my call on gut. I think that Mac hit a pretty good point in noting that, from CSL's perspective, MoI *has* to be scum and CSL is being really odd about not voting him. MoI is at least being consistent to the narrative we have, which makes me feel more comfortable with him as town.

The worst I can see for MoI is that it's possible the Mina kill came from him considering her attitude towards him. The rest of the case on him just makes my head hurt.

What are your thoughts for voting MoI instead of CSL? Is there something you think I'm missing?

[Thor665]

CSL - it's not the vote hopping, it's the shifting off of a player you 'know' to be scum that's weird.

[Thor665]

@diddin - how does Macscum prove you as diddintown? I may have been sleeping through that part of the class today as I've totally missed this.

[Thor665]

ITT Thor is a herp-da-derp because of *course* if we knock out the Lannister it clears diddin.

[Thor665]

I think diddin is town. Wish the rest of you were easier to get a feel for.

[Thor665]

Do you see the truncation as purposeful and for scum intent? If so, what is that intent?

[Thor665]

My palm has visited my face.

[Thor665]

Unvote: CSL

Okay...WHY VOTES OFF?

[Thor665]

Richard, I hate you.

Please post reply to question.

[Thor665]

How about we presume I don't and that I also presume you have a more solid reason to not want to lynch CSL then I have to want to lynch him and you try to explain it instead of being vague because you and I are the two obv. towns here and apparently I'm voting wrong and you might want to help me see that.

^^^
add some exclamation points to the above and presume I repost it if you decide to answer pithily again.

[Thor665]

My gut disagrees with your gut.

Can you point to any post or general theme that makes you feel he's more townish then scum?

[Thor665]

I hate looking at ISOs, they always bewilder me.

For me it's partly just how scuzzy he's felt all game and then paired with all this late game AtE nonsense. I'll admit both he and Magna are starting to look like two kids in a wuss-slap fight but I think Magna has overall looked the most town of the pair and the choice for Greyjoy really is CSL or Magna.

I think the question we really have to consider is this one;

CSL had to have it explained to him that he or Magna where an either/or option for Greyjoy.
He votes Magna.
Later unvotes.
Then revotes after being asked why isn't he voting the obv. scum.

The (difficult) question is this; do we think he's needing to have this explained because he's really that flightly of a player and forgot?
Or is it because he's scum and can thus be less solid on his reads and isn't so focused on the logic.

The CSL = scum concept in me says that once you have "obv. scum" it should consume every post as you constantly try to get people to lynch him - others be damned.
The CSL = town concept in me is wondering if CSL scum could really be that sloppy.

That's where I'm at, thoughts?

[Thor665]

I wish you guys would stop. MoI is the better debater and he's coming out of the exchanges looking better each time - but skill in debate is not a town tell. I don't think either of you are helping. If you want to help address my conversation with Richard, as I see that as the most worthwhile discussion point.

@Richard - thoughts?

Nevermind.

@diddin - you're coasting on a wagon that's not going anywhere, chime in on the CSL/MoI situation or I might just decide to run a wagon on you today for the hell of it.

[Thor665]

I like the new Richard with a set.

[Thor665]

Aw man, was I on the 'stupid town' list and thus didn't get killed? I hate you all.

Vote: No Lynch

[Thor665]

@Richard - is it a lot of swearing and a bunch of "oh my gawd, it's so obvious, why is town throwing this away!?!" I have noticed a certain trend in how accurate and sure people's scumtells become in the dead topic

@Mac - I just have to know - fakeclaim or did you invent it yourself?

Also, wouldn't the scum who killed the other scum achieve total victory?

[Thor665]

Ah, okay, I just thought in prisoner's dilemma the optimal strategy was to "defect",

[Thor665]

Actually, in Prisoner's Dilemma, defecting = losing.

No, defecting = achieving the greatest possible gain for the prisoner.

Right at the moment scum are in a choice of kill town or kill other scum. If only one of you kills the other scum then that scum will have victory, so optimal strategy is to convince the other scum to go for the draw and then to kill that scum for victory.

[Thor665]

If you really feel 'that's that' then why haven't you sent us into no lynch yet?

You're clearly waiting around to try to help sell MoI on your idea to try to ensure cooperation. If it's so cut and dry why does that need to happen?

[Thor665]

Why do you need to hear from him? You've already explained the obvious win mechanic from your perspective - your actions are set in stone now. Besides, if he got greedy you'd never be able to tell till it was too late. Might as well no lynch now and just figure he'll agree with you since you'll already definitely be voting with your plan.

I wouldn't want town to have to pick between you guys (despite your awesometacular fake-claim [though I imagine the Dead QT is bellowing obscenities at me about that now]) after all, you're both awesome for getting here and if I pick between you two then I'd be shafting the other guy. I think you should just play for the draw so neither of you is the loser.

[Thor665]

Oh, you no killed? I thought both of the scum just targeted Richard. My bad.

[Thor665]

@MoI - possible town victory is infinitely preferable to me then certain scum victory; whichever side may or may not 'deserve' wins I play for my wincon. (Though the buttering up was a wonderful salve to a wounded ego or an appreciated nod from a fellow player - depending your mission goal)

I'd say go no lynch, Mac has a solid plan there.

[Thor665]

Yes, big thanks to the mods. I enjoyed the flavor even though I was way in over my head with it. I'll probably check out these books sometime because of your game. Vote counts, prods, etc. were all as well done as can be expected in a large game.

1,000 times this - best flavor I've experienced in a Mafia game to date - made me want to read the books.

Apologies for not having sharper play near end game - t'was all a muddled mess in my head and diddin was my only clear read anymore.

[Thor665]

Well, that will give me a countdown timer for reading some books - I was having to try to skim some just to try to avoid spoilers.

[Thor665]

You lie!

[Thor665]

@Benmage - I'm surprised you JKed me, I thought you (like me) were leaving the one shot thing vague in order to draw a NK.

To those in the Dead QT who wondered why I didn't use it Day 1 or 2 - mostly it was because I was dumb apparently. I figured my likelihood of death Night 1 was very slim and felt the same way Night 2 (though that felt more of a gamble). I figured if I waited out a few days my shot would be more accurate and thus more helpful to town. I'm guessing the logic you believe in is shoot first, be confirmed town, and hopefully kill a VI or scum right off the bat for early flip info? I'll consider that. My excuse is that this was my first time as Vig, my first time with multiple scumteams, and my first Large, so I felt off my game for most of it but hopefully will be smarter next time.

Funny to see how the Lannys didn't sweat me and the Greyjoys had me down as serious consideration for a kill - the oddities of multiple scum teams.

I do promise to be more lynch happy on targets tracked to kills in the future, regardless of claims.

[Thor665]

vague=ambiguous, so...yes? I thought Benmage had picked up on it and was backing my play, which is what I was asking.

[Thor665]

I actually appreciated the in-jokes from the mini - once Mina pointed them out. Funny stuff. Will be eager to play in/follow the second just to see if Mac's claim shows up as an actual role (plus that assassin guy might show up again and last more then a single phase, yes?)

@VP - thanks for the kind words. The better I get at Mafia the more I realize how little I know. I have realized I tend to be strong initially and sort of self-destruct in WIFOM later which is something I'm trying to figure out how to fight (that's why some players were picking up on my 'shutting down' towards the end). Clearly that's not a good solution, but I won't know how my new solution works till I get to another endgame situation. I am kicking myself for giving up on my gut ML is scum feel from early/mid game. If I'd played the game straight with all my initial reads I would have done slightly better then I did (though MoI would have won probably) Work in progress, thanks for the thoughts.

[Thor665]

Though I will say that usually whenever I'm hunting scum people tend to think I'm being reasonably townish at the same time. There's certainly some marriage between the two activities.

[Thor665]

Well, great, as though that ego needed more food