More Leeway for Normal Flavor

[Mr. Flay]

When I start modding on my own, I'm really hoping that I will be able to write flavors like news reports. Would that be considered normal flavor?

As long as it's about Mafia/Werewolves, yes. (IANAM)

Where can I find the current rules on flavor in normals?

Normal Game, though it's slightly dated.

[Mr. Flay]

Newbie Games are off-limits for anything but Mafia flavor. A user's first experience with this site should not be Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army.

Agreed, but do you mean Mafia/Werewolf, or only the mob? Lots of people are introduced to the game through Are You A Werewolf?

There have to be boundaries, and they need to be reasonably well defined - original material based in a common and well-known genre might be ok; Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army, not so much.

I'm hesitant on this one. For instance, is Alien Imposters (The Thing, V, Body Snatchers, etc) a common-and-well-known genre? I'd say yes, but it veers awfully close to encouraging weirdnesses in roles. Maybe we start with one or two additional variants on Infiltrators that could be explicitly used, and expand as needed/approved. The other one that's "out there in the wild" as a card game is Do You Worship Cthulhu?, though it's pretty rarely used I think.

All flavor should be public (no role PM flavor that could be claimed, for example). That would have to include role names, and I'm not sure whether it would make more sense to say "no flavor in roles, period" or have the option of role name flavor if it's open (i.e. the OP/rules post lists "Alien = Mafia, Space Explorer = Townie, etc." for all possible roles).

At the least, open role PMs should be "translated" into normal flavor - players shouldn't need to parse your treasure hunt flavor to figure out what their role actually does. Having two sets of role PMs isn't particularly elegant or aesthetically pleasing, though.

Mod translation of role/PM on request or in the first posts seems sufficient to me. "No flavor in roles" is really about no game-breaking/twisting flavor in roles, which is a separate problem. I love getting a Mafia PM with a 'backstory' for my Family/Werewolf Clan; drops me right into the mood.

An additional problem with 'translating' roles would be fakeclaims; the mod would have to be careful to say "if the claim is genuine, then that role would be equivalent to a Roleblocker", which I'm not thrilled about.

[Mr. Flay]

Lots of people are introduced to the game through Are You A Werewolf?

Sure; but this is mafiascum, not werewolfscum, and I think it's reasonable to limit our introductory games to our most common flavor.

Fair point.

That's the thing - *all* flavor in roles is potentially game-twisting, unless it's public (or unless inelegant rules are added, like "you can't claim flavor" - and those cause as many problems as they fix).

True, but that's why I like the new trend toward more modular role PMs:

Working the streets isn't easy, but times are tough and the money's good, if at times risky. Never as risky as it now, though, with the mob moving into town and making even a borderline occupation like yours a potential death sentence.

Role Name:

Roleblocker

Night Actions:

Each game Night you may PM me a player's name that you wish to stop from performing any/all night actions. You are not required to take action on any given Night. You will not be told whether or not your action succeeds.

Yes, that confirms it's a Mafia game and not a Werewolf game, but it doesn't preclude an SK or second Mafia Faction, or even a Vigilante.

[Mr. Flay]

The two main ways I've seen it done are "you can't claim flavor" - which is annoying, and usually prompts players to try to edge up to the line without crossing it - and "if you want to fake claim, I'll write you fake flavor", which has worked well for some mods but I could see potential problems there as well (I don't know that players have ever really tested that method).

Yeah, I vastly prefer the latter, even though I've never been asked (usually in Theme Games, I provide a fake roleclaim + the Townie role).

As for the originating concern, I think if we wrote up some guidelines for non-breaking flavor (if somebody hasn't already, in one of their modding guides), AND required either the Game Reviewer or Normal Reviewer to look over the flavor, I think we'd avoid anything we can reasonably avoid. Obviously any mod can at any time screw it up in an unforseen way, but that risk is present now.

[Mr. Flay]

Here's a stab at those guidelines, from my internal checklist for avoiding breaking strategies:

1. Don't put anything in a Town role PM's flavor text that you wouldn't write as in-thread flavor text for that role's death.
   
2. Share the (or at least
   a
   ) Townie PM in-thread if you're going to use
   any
   role PM flavor.
   
3. Don't mention anyone else's role or mechanics in role PM flavor text unless it's already been mentioned in-thread (this is a corollary of #1), or is integral to the role.
   
4. Would a non-player reading your flavor text gain any understanding of the game's setup, roles, or mechanics? If so, you've probably said too much.
   
5. Does your flavor text augment or modify the role's mechanics? If so, you've put it in the wrong section. All role mechanics should be unambiguously labeled as such, including if possible the standard "role name".
   
6. Does removing the flavor text cripple the role in any way (other than aesthetically)? If so, you've
   definitely
   said too much.

Most of these apply to Theme Games too, with the possible except of the last line of #5.

This is totally off-the-cuff, so feel free to pick it apart, disagree, add to it, whatever. If this needs to be a separate thread, that's fine too.

[Mr. Flay]

It is? Not last I heard, but it's been a while since I ran a Normal that had multiple killing Factions...

[Mr. Flay]

Random hobos??

*looks for Macros*

[Mr. Flay]

I know that at least one Newbie game I've modded has probably crossed the flavor line on paper. Then again, it was very clear that the flavor was Town vs. Mafia and knowledge of what I was talking about didn't change anything. That and it was my best flavor writing onsite so far; I really need to step it up because that game is old now

Tons of my old Newbie Games are flavored; everything from WWII to High School to I don't know what else. I'm probably part of the reason we can't have nice things.

As for the originating concern, I think if we wrote up some guidelines for non-breaking flavor (if somebody hasn't already, in one of their modding guides),

I'm sorry, did you say something?~
As soon as we come to a consensus inthread I can add it to what's in my sig.

Absolutely not. If we come up with good guidelines, they need to be separate from your guide and have official status. Otherwise, there's no point in trying to change things and we should stick with the current explicit ban. No offense intended to your guide, but it's both lengthy and unofficial, and people WILL miss the details.

[Mr. Flay]

zoroaster is right; most of the wiki is informally edited and collaborative, but a few select pages are locked and guarded with the official stamp.

[Mr. Flay]

Huh? You have to know where you're starting before you can change things... several people in this thread have been confused about the current guidelines, which is frankly kind of embarrassing.

[Mr. Flay]

If a mod mentions a different kill style in every night scene, I'm actually going to assume that's mechanics (versus one or two of the usual types, where it may or may not). I can see why Adel was distracted...

[Mr. Flay]

Can't we decide on a

comprehension

compromise?

For Normal's, first-time mods can only do Mafia/Werewolves flavor. Mods who have successfully modded a game can use every generic flavor as long as it doesn't influence the game in a game-breaking way.

That's got some appeal actually, SSBF.

[Mr. Flay]

Requiring one Normal and one Theme game is sort of silly, though - with that experience you can run any style of game on the site, with any flavor you want.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, but... all we're saying is it CAN be done now, without a change, under the conditions you're outlining.

The original proposal was better, because it allows people more freedom to run 'Normal' (non-wacky/Mutation/source material) games with the Normal experience requirement, not the Theme experience requirement.

Be glad - when I brought this up years ago, mith just told me to stuff it. Now he's at least listening...

[Mr. Flay]

I know that at least one Newbie game I've modded has probably crossed the flavor line on paper. Then again, it was very clear that the flavor was Town vs. Mafia and knowledge of what I was talking about didn't change anything. That and it was my best flavor writing onsite so far; I really need to step it up because that game is old now

Tons of my old Newbie Games are flavored; everything from WWII to High School to I don't know what else. I'm probably part of the reason we can't have nice things.

Wow, just looked at my moderating record on the wiki:

• Newbie Game #142, World War II-themed roles in the C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #155, C9 setup; Scum won on Day 3 after a great recovery from having one of them lynched Day 1.
  
• Newbie Game #164, High School-themed roles in the C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #190, 'Kids These Days'-flavored C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #166, 'Gang War'-themed roles in the C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #196, Corporate-themed roles in the C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #203, C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #198, C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #217, C9 setup with some Roman flavor
  
• Newbie Game #222, C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #223, C9 setup with Dylan Thomas flavor
  
• Newbie Game #228, C9 setup with Doctor Doom flavor
  
• Newbie Game #242, C9 setup with Eddie Izzard flavor
  
• Newbie Game #243, C9 setup with Rock-n-Roll flavor
  
• Newbie Game #248, C9 setup with Sheep & Wolves flavor
  
• Newbie Game #255, C9 setup with lovers' quarrel flavor
  
• Newbie Game #284, C9 setup
  
• Newbie Game #300, C9 setup with Spartan flavor

[Mr. Flay]

No.

Anyway, if you guys want to take a stab at putting together a policy in this direction, I will certainly consider it.

[Mr. Flay]

The "bastard mod" criterion serves no purpose in your arrangement except vanity.

QFT. I trust our "experienced mods" to run appropriately labeled and managed Bastard Mod games without a classification.

[Mr. Flay]

Ythill's are here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2413048
mine are here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2411923

I'm not quoting them because they should be read in context of the comments that follow them.