/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[SpyreX]

Here's how I look at the 4 options presented in overall power:

Janitor
Rolecop
Roleblocker*
Assassin

* Depends on if a role knows they are roleblocked or not.

Rolecop/Assassin is right out.
Janitor only should have a real effect in a few scenarios most of which involve being pants on head. Pairing it with a roleblocker makes a LITTLE more sense then the rolecop just because of the parity similar to to the above.
Roleblocker is 4-shots and doesn't matter as much since reliance on PR's isn't a great idea in the best of worlds and doubly so when they are handpicked.
Assassin, even individually, is a scary bag and of the four thats the one I want the least.

Vote: Janitor

the other PROBABLY should be roleblocker but I could be missing something.

Deadline: 2

Haha on explaining why that's better.

[SpyreX]

I'm not understanding the janitor issue either.

Realistically, there's two scenarios - town telling the truth that gets janend or scum janitoring scum for hijinks.

Both of these come out in the wash especially with the knowledge its there beforehand. Now if it was a surprise janitor sure but.

How is that a worse call than letting an unlimited use daycop help parse NK's until dead?

[SpyreX]

I've got a feeling I'm going to be outvoted here BUT still I'm not parsing it through.

A single player's flip being unknown versus having the ability to pick NK's (eliminating the usefulness of a hider if found, making the others priority targets when necessary) just doesn't add up.

The lylo issue is simple enough: plan for the worst. Assume the janitor is town and play accordingly.
The wagon analysis is fairly straightforward in most scenarios as well: parse as both and look accordingly.

Unless I'm missing some wacky janitor hijinks I don't get it.

[SpyreX]

Hrmm there is one downside to the jan depending on the scum picks - jan doesn't get tracked. Which means its not AS effected by a jk either.

I still don't think that makes it a worse choice than daycop though.

---

Its not a function of reliance or trust because someone claims a PR. Its a function of how even the little things can be that push.

And I'm not sure how jan versus rolecop alters fakeclaiming.

To use a nautical metaphor:

PR's wont save a sinking ship. However, they may patch up a leaking one long enough to land.

[SpyreX]

I could see A scenario or two in which found PR's would be blocked versus killed. But, overall, unlikely.

Saying all analysis is ruined a.) requires the use of it D1 and b.) isn't true. Its skewed some but definitely nowhere near the lengths you're portraying Hoop.

[SpyreX]

I'd probably put 2 trackers / vig / vig or hider. Jailers become very nice towards endgame.

I think even the

potential

for extra NK's is being way undervalued and the harm of a single (because this wouldn't be an argument otherwise) obscured flip is being way overvalued.

And I'm absolutely behind no daycop but the rationale from that to assassin still confuses me: the daycop finds the pr's but an assassin eliminates them in addition to a normal kill. The only PR the assassin doesn't deal with well is the hider.

And PR claim then lynch baffles me - with the idea of trackers being a higher than average chance of being in the game wouldn't leaving a pr claim that is dead anyways to see if a tracker can draw out a kill (this is doubly true if the assassin was given) leaving the actual lynch to at least attempt to hit scum or force the claim-lock? Why play reactive when a live PR of any type is a detriment versus wasting a lynch for them?

In this setup PR claims should be taken with a grain of salt but death on claim?

[SpyreX]

Even a missed assassin gives the some daycop-esque information (while it can be interfered with). I could easily see using one shot early and saving the other.

And not having the flip != no information from the day.
VC analysis? Plug both, compile results, compare against other flips.
Day analysis? Just read the day and look at it from both sides.

I look at it like a death miller claim or any of those others - it sucks, but it doesn't destroy the game. Especially not of the potential others have.

Does it hurt if we're at lylo? Sure. Of course I'd like to think we can avoid that, but death warrant for PR's I think is a faster and harder hurt.

[SpyreX]

@mod:

Would a roleblocked target know they were roleblocked?

Regardless of answer:

Vote: Roleblocker

I still much, much, much prefer jan/rb to assassin/rb but the more I think about it I don't like daycop with either.

[SpyreX]

As "pro" janitor versus some of the other combinations (namely daycop + assassin) I still don't see the inherent distaste in claims: if we get 4 and 4 exact PR claims it doesn't matter who was janned.

Otherwise it is exactly as per normal. Evaluate and eliminate. Just like every other aspect of a single missing flip.

I'm a bit skeptical of the value of confirmed townies early in the game, personally.

I really need this one explained too.

I could see merit in janitor + daycop with a massclaim forcing the hand early working out well.

[SpyreX]

Fair enough:

A janitor only alters the PR business if they claim a PR. If we only get 4, its the same. Further, it'd be the same issue without the janitor in regards to the number of claims versus the validity of them: 4 is 4.

That seems much, much less damaging than the daycop + assassin combination mentioned in the same post. That is the one combination I am 100% adamantly against.

[SpyreX]

Lets look at this in perspective under the basic assumptions:

1.) Someone about to get lynched is going to claim.
2.) Town isn't going to lie about their claim.

Lets say D1 is a "pr" lynch that gets janned:

a.) It was an actual PR.
--- Scum, to utilize this, has to have at least one member claim a PR. Otherwise, 3 cleared at massclaim.
b.) It was a scum faking.
--- Scum are given a conundrum - claim vanilla and ride the "one is scum" wagon at massclaim or claim and make it apparent that at least one is scum at massclaim.
----- Depending on values, this turns into clearing swaths of vanillas, forcing the kills that way.

So, this is fairly straightforward but leaning town to begin with: we know the absolute number of PR's which is a concession not often present. Net result? Analysis and lynching as per normal.

NOW, lets say we eliminate assumption 1 and not allow claims before lynch:

Scum now have a conundrum - they don't get to know if they are in scenario a above. Which is, again, good for town.

The other anti-janitor argument is the "2 day 1s" issue which perplexes me because absolute information isn't something I ever count on for a progression. Interactions can be examined as per normal. Wagon analysis can be done dual on the binary value. Its not concrete but its not like there isn't a days worth of value to be found.

Further, we know its there. Its not a surprise banking on a flip that doesn't come.

And ultimately?

It all becomes moot the second we lynch a scum that flips. The other pieces fall into place. Janitor is -really- only going to screw things up to a high level if we're already screwed by

multiple

mislynches.

The others alter the game in different ways by neutering the PR's that exist - daycop directing kills, roleblocker stopping the pr's, assassin is straightforward. The janitor at least can force a gamble that if the balloon is popped doesn't matter.

Again, if this wasn't a 1-shot we'd be having a whole different discussion but as it sits I think the risk reward here is pretty damn solid.

[SpyreX]

Knowing its what is going to happen by nature weakens the move.

Yea, its bad if we're at all the PR's left alive and no scum dead when massclaim happens but that is a bad scenario no matter how you cut it. Knowing PR's aren't inherently trusted because of their claim is fairly standard and lynching even A scum that flips breaks this wide open.

And the swaths of vanillas is more of the same we will actually be able to find and lynch a scum: even with 3 scum left the claims have to be split to PR's / not PR's (in this setup I'd assume 1 PR claim 2 not) which means trying to lynch in the PR and clear that set.

However, if there are two scum left at massclaim and its an obvious 1/1 and the vanilla scum is found that's all but game right there.

So I guess my answer is tied into the mentality behind the discussion - if we can't lynch scum then the janitor is REAL bad. If we can lynch scum then the janitor becomes weaker by comparison - and I don't think the existence of the janitor actively hampers that pursuit near the level that is presented.

[SpyreX]

This needs to end.

No to hiders, No to massclaim. Yes to starting.

[SpyreX]

I've been prodded again and I see it is still more of the same.

I'm against a massclaim at the moment. If we're going to DO a hider claim just do it. Consensus is like pulling teeth and its dragging on.

If we were given two hiders a claim helps. 1 hider can be a wash. No hiders means this, realistically, is more of a waste but at least we know we have no hiders.

Whatever it is it needs to happen. Soon.

[SpyreX]

I am not a hider

[SpyreX]

Woodoggy for lol, reactions but I digress.

I can change to almost anything but:

I still don't like the janitor. Suppose DGB is telling the truth, but later one of the scum claims tracker and contradicts her. We lynch one of them, and the result is covered. Then we are uncertain about the other, and uncertain about DGB's results, as long as the other is alive and unconfirmed.

Assuming DGB is telling the truth, the scum now have a field of 15 townies of whom 3 could be assassin targets. A role cop would allow them one shot each day to look for PR's. The field will likely narrow, but whenever the scum hit a PR with their regular NK, the number of targets decreases. There's a good chance that either the assassin or rolecop is lynched, or we are at LYLO, before they uncover any PR's via the rolecop.
So I'm okay with the Rolecop + Assassin combination, unless there's a stronger argument against it.

vote: assassin
vote: rolecop

Never this. Even with one hider going "give them the tool to find roles AND give them the tool to eliminate them at no extra charge" is a bad dealio. Under any guise.

I'll be surprised to see a hider out of the rest. There wont be two. Assumptions can be made fairly safely with that in mind.

[SpyreX]

I hate lol, reactions a lot.

HOWEVER, DGB had an apparent method and things she was looking for which makes that whole scenario just a teensy bit different.

That doesn't make zor scum anymore than DGB though.

But FINALLY I can do this:

Unvote, Vote: Hero

The switch from lets massclaim to massclaiming is bad as a function of the snipes with mith is bad. The push for assassin/rolecop under very, very weak logic is extra bad. Add in a dash of secret gut reasons (TM) and we've got us a stew.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and oobster I'll be nice enough to not unleash flaming fire YET but go ahead and give more details for your list of 10 scum there.

Double points for showing how each of them fit.

[SpyreX]

@Spyrex: Did you vote me because you always think I'm suspicious when we're both townies, or because you know I know you do? Because I know you know I know that, so it won't buy you any town points.
I don't recall the switch you refer to. Are you thinking 'massclaim is "obviously flawed" ' = "lets massclaim"?
The push for assassin/rolecop was based on the assumption that there was a hider. Without one, I would have supported roleblocker/(not janitor). With one, it had to be (not roleblocker)/(not janitor).

Why yes its a function of meta because I sure love me some meta. And town points. Those too.

Calling it "obviously flawed" doesn't change the fact it was presented. Looking to salvage it means, in fact, that you would want it to happen if that was possible. This changed to a more negative connotation after discussion with mith and STILL was brought up again after.

And its not a function of wanting a massclaim. I thought about that and "flawed" or not it could still work out decently. Its about the change in tone with the pushing on it.

But, lets look at this because while the other stuff bothers me this is the one that I'm calling shenanigans on:

I still don't like the janitor. Suppose DGB is telling the truth, but later one of the scum claims tracker and contradicts her. We lynch one of them, and the result is covered. Then we are uncertain about the other, and uncertain about DGB's results, as long as the other is alive and unconfirmed.

Assuming DGB is telling the truth, the scum now have a field of 15 townies of whom 3 could be assassin targets. A role cop would allow them one shot each day to look for PR's. The field will likely narrow, but whenever the scum hit a PR with their regular NK, the number of targets decreases. There's a good chance that either the assassin or rolecop is lynched, or we are at LYLO, before they uncover any PR's via the rolecop.
So I'm okay with the Rolecop + Assassin combination, unless there's a stronger argument against it.

The scenario for Janitor being this horrible and destructive thing is a 1-1. Which is something I'd always take to the bank but I digress because this is only really important as a function of the second paragraph.

15 / 3 is correct. However, this is 1.) disregarding that it is effectively 14 to start because of the rolecop (assuming a negative result) and 2.) even 14 is wrong because in this group its a safe assumption that scum are going to hold against someone who isn't going to be lynched. So, at the first juncture it would be used it is 13.

And, it would be used. At least the first shot because worst case scenario it acts as a double rolecop in conjunction with the other sans blocking. Which, assuming a kill goes through on not a PR puts the next day start at 12 alive with 3 investigated and before its even used again at least another one.

Them's good odds. Not even because they're narrowing PR's but because

an effective use is an extra kill

.

Add into that the argument against the Janitor is a "worst case" scenario that is still better than the other and the rationalization for the Assassin/Rolecop is "well, we'll be lynching scum" and I'm calling teaparty - it doesn't matter at ALL what roles the scum have if they're being lynched.

Which is oddly enough what I said about Janitor.

[SpyreX]

@Spy:
Just because you don't use meta as a basis for deciding your town/scum reads doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy with others saying "Spyrex is doing what he would do as town here."

I can't help you regarding your perception of a change in tone. I'm aware of neither the details of the basis for this, nor any reason at all why you would expect scum would change their tone and town wouldn't. Normally I'd point you back to the MD thread in which we commented on this, but I don't see any point to that here.

Acccctuuallly I'm more than happy to disregard that kind of garbagio too. I don't need town points. I need blood, and the right kind. That's it.

What MD thread? What does that have to do with anything?

Opinions can change. However, everything about how your opinion changed (or didn't if you're going to go with the "I brought it up as a bad idea" angle) is bad news bears.

That still doesn't hold a candle to the fuzzy math though.

A more global question:

I love killin me people but this KMD wagon seems to be growing on its own fat. Que?

[SpyreX]

A more global question:

I love killin me people but this KMD wagon seems to be growing on its own fat. Que?

[SpyreX]

The Hoopla wagon, while I'm still not sold,

at least makes sense

for why it is happening.

The KMD one seemingly just grew on itself. I was curious if that's all there was to it.

Watching Hero get the oil out to grease up his coming votejump is always fun though.

[SpyreX]

I think zor is high on moonbeams BUT I think he believes it. That's the important part.

The DGB debacle is classic white noise (hint: it wasn't a debacle and I want real clear besides "DGB lied, people died" how that maneuver makes any sense

in total

as a scum move).

MME also is probably town. Everything in this setup and what he's said points at laaazy versus scummy.

HOWEVER, onto important stuff:

Thx Flay. At least one of these guys is scum.

DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster.

Remember to isolate Tajo when you are in endgame and POE gives you a name out of this list.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or serious, but you realize that mathematically, if you pick any random 6 people in a 20 player game in which there are 4 scum, there is an 80% chance that at least 1 of those 6 players are scum. Unless you feel being prodded is a scum tell, you might as well have picked 6 names at random.

By the way, Mods, if we're going to continue with 48 hour prods, I'm going to have to announce a Pre-emptive V/LA on weekends, as I can't always guarantee I can post. Usually, posting friday and then not again til monday is enough to avoid prodding. I typically make up for less activity on the weekends with more activity during the week. I just don't think I need to be prodded every weekend.

Uhhh

Yea. It's pretty clear that it wasn't a "random" sampling and even you yourself make mention of it. Which is super awesome considering you were in that list.

Me Grimlock no like post. Not at all.

Onto other things that I don't like:

You're probably town, then. No offence intended, but I'd rather that you had been scum.

What?

No, seriously, what?

It's like bizarro world here where I'm trying to figure out this AWESOME KMD WAGON and somehow I'm patted on the head and given a town star?

Speaking of:

It's the obv Hoopla counterwagon, SpyreX. Come on man.

There are good reasons for the KMD wagon, but wagons are often more informative without explanations.

I disagree. Its not really growing at all, actually. KMD doesn't seem too concerned with the votes, but he doesn't seem to be doing any scum hunting either. So far, KMD seems less active and analytical than he is in another game with me (ongoing), and while its not a tell because he didn't flip yet, its enough of a reason for me to keep a closer eye on him.

F---

Further, lets take a snapshot:

Hoopla (6) --

Papa Zito

, Amished, mith, ekiM, VasudeVa, Elmo
Kmd4390 (4) --

Rhinox

, Ellibereth,

Herodotus

, Hoopla
zoraster (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Kmd4390
DrippingGoofball (2) -- zoraster, Zorblag
ooba (1) -- Plumegranate
Rhinox (1) -- ooba
Herodotus (1) -- SpyreX
VasudeVa (1) -- populartajo

Hoopla (7) --

Papa Zito

, Amished, mith, ekiM, VasudeVa, Elmo, Plumegranate
VasudeVa (3) -- populartajo, ooba,

Herodotus

zoraster (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Kmd4390
Papa Zito (2) -- Zorblag,

Rhinox

Herodotus (2) -- SpyreX, Hoopla
Kmd4390 (1) -- Ellibereth
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster

PZ wins the town trophy. The other two win bullets.

For those who actually have been following my back-and-forth with Hoopla, am I correct in feeling that Hoopla is dodging my "why?" question (which I've asked three times now)?

Yes, she's dodging it.

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

I'd still MUCH rather lynch Hero or even Rhinox but.

[SpyreX]

What?

No, seriously, what? You make no sense.

Rhinox, one of the illustrious group called out, proceeds to snipe about any "random" list (hint: it wasn't random) and the statistics behind it (hint: those don't matter in this case) and then even go so far as to say being prodded != lurking != being scum.

Yea, I don't make sense. My bad.

Just like here:

You could look at the context for the reason I thought you were town. It was based on your reaction to the Hoopla wagon. Acknowledging that there was a reason for it, but deciding not to join it.
There is no apparent point to the votecount you posted. Non-sequitur much?
... and then you pounce onto the hoopla wagon. Apparently your top three choices for lynch day 1 are all either likely or certain townies. (I'm not sure I have mentioned this yet, but I think Hoopla is likely town, and I won't be voting her after all.)

There is a reason for it but THAT reason isn't why I've become convinced. Its a.) partly because its clear I'm not getting YOU lynched today and b.) the simple fact Hoopster has become more and more of a non-entitiy since it started. She is dodging mith and there's not a good reason for it.

And I guess I'll spell it out when I didn't think I had to since NO ONE COMMENTED ON IT:

I got three responses to the KMD wagon - 2 from people on it, 1 from someone not. The one off of it says its a clear counterwagon and lets it go. The other two go, "Ohh SpyreX there are reaaasons" and give me a little head pat.

Which two votes have moved since then?

Yea, like I said: Zito is town. You two are way up there on the death list (I'd be a LITTLE surprised if you both were scum but I digress).

I mean, scum or masons but no masons sooo there you go.

[SpyreX]

...

You can't be real.

Unvote, Vote: VV

Its like a damn scum manifesto

[SpyreX]

Also also, that 'he attacks people who wagon on him' point is bullshit. I think the proper term would be 'abrasive defense'. Not nearly the same as 'attack', doncha think? The only person I have ever attacked is Hero, and that's because I see Hoopla, who I perceive to be scum, voting him. Well, that's before you came into the picture.

Five dollars for the brain-pain question needing to be asked from this.

I will wait because its soo juicy on every level.

[SpyreX]

God in heaven I agree with Hero. Cats and dogs.

"see I called this before the game started" means less than absolutely nothing - it is the worst kind of the worst meta. The shield.

This is even more awesome with a janitor in play - knowing chances are real high you can't get nailed to the wall for it.

[SpyreX]

VV>>>Hoopla>>>>Zoraster

No, seriously, not one but two "ohh meta means its a-ok" when after being called out for shamelessly wagoning and focusing on players who are looking at him as scum?

Really?

Purged with fire.

And, yea, super hi-c tip is IF he flips scum which the magic 8 ball sure is pointing at EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if he's scum I want you both dead for it.

That's the only reason I'd support a hoop lynch today - because chances are high a jan is being used and I want that VV flip.

[SpyreX]

? Amished and SK and anyone else who wants to pull that shield up for VV

[SpyreX]

Hoopster whats the dealio?

Fight the urge. Fight for your right.

In other news Zito is still town. KMD reaaaallly needs to contribute something or los ropos in the near future.

---

I never said the names were random. I argued that the group of {players who were prodded} was not the same as the group of {players who are lurking}. I thought I covered that in this post?

No, you didn't

say

the names were random. You said the list had the same amount of validity as a random list would. Which is junk.

And, if I'm misrepping you OMG what part am I misrepping? Because, whoo doggy, please say its the "then even go so far as to say being prodded != lurking != being scum." part.

That would be pretty sweet and I would approve I PROMISE there wouldn't be repercussions.

Totally promise.

[SpyreX]

Sure since I got my joke-o-matic 9000 I'll humor you:

What did the chicken say when it crossed the road?

"HEY YOU RHINOX YOU DIDNT SAY WHERE SPYREX MISREPPED YOU WOOOOSH"

That one is always a knee-slapper.

---

Now, why is that list better than a random list? Seriously?

The simple fact that calling out six people for being behind activity levels at that point is telling. When I get some more time I'll go ahead and parse activity D0, D1 before that and after and see what shakes out because I guarantee you you'll see some patterns.

Like, for example, you responding to say you'd do something in the scant minutes between the prods going out and tajo making that post AND then in your next post (sometime later) kiboshing it not once but twice ("Is this a joke or serious", "You might as well have picked 6 names at random).

But, lets humor me now because thats even more fun:

You threw down that vote for KMD out of the gates. You threw down that vote for PZ for reasons that I still don't understand. You've played lookwarm on VV and Hoopla yet, ultimately, haven't commented for real on any of them.

And for the amount of tepid fighting you've done with tajo for calling you out and me now

you've still managed not to say anything important about either of our alignments.

So, who's scum?

Is your vote well served sitting on Zito? I can get behind fighting for your candidate but, alas, you aren't doing that.

You aren't doing anything, really.

[SpyreX]

Lordy be, that's what happens when I'm tired:

And, yea, super hi-c tip is IF he flips scum which the magic 8 ball sure is pointing at EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if he's scum I want you both dead for it.

That's the only reason I'd support a hoop lynch today - because chances are high a jan is being used and I want that VV flip.

I'm not even sure how I screwed that up but it was SUPPOSED to read:

EVEN THOUGH I would be absolutely surprised if (both of you are scum) I'd want you both dead for it.

I.e. I am super doubtful both Amished and SK are scum playing shield (RB/Jan aren't worth that kind of protection) BUT I'd still want them both dead with a scum-VV flip for that stunt.

So, yea, you read it right - I just sure as hell didn't SAY it right.

[SpyreX]

Why are Spy and Hero having a long, drawn-out conversation about meta which has nothing to do with anything?

Because he went right off the crazy train and I was trying to figure out where he was coming from BUT ALAS VV decided to just see if he could twirl a handlebar mustache and if people would go "well, the guy with the bloody knife can't be scum too obvious".

In due time I'll get back to that, believe you me.

[SpyreX]

If you thought it was a slip why the hell aren't you voting for me FFS?

Why aren't you dead yet my lord. What do we need a blinking sign?

[SpyreX]

Spy...

The misrep is that you are arguing that I'm trying to discredit tajo's list by comparing it to a list of 6 random names.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or serious, but you realize that mathematically, if you pick any random 6 people in a 20 player game in which there are 4 scum, there is an 80% chance that at least 1 of those 6 players are scum.

Unless you feel being prodded is a scum tell, you might as well have picked 6 names at random

.

I applaud you for the very professional non-answer. Lets see if I can lead you into the direction of an answer I was looking for. The 6 people tajo called out {DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster} do you think all 6 are lurkers and why? Do you think that scum are/were trying to lurk at that point in the game? Do you think there were any other players that deserved to be in that list of 6 players?

All 6? No. DGB is off the charts but that happened after the fact. At that point in time? Yes. The amount of actual d1 content from that group has been minimal.

Means I think Vasu is town. Thought that was pretty clear.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with the Vasu = VI theory.

I liked VasudeVa during D0, but lately seems to be voting anywhere a wagon might start. Especially the KMD and Hoopla votes. I'm not against voting jumping, but there needs to be actual reasons for the votes, and you can't just forget about your previous votes after you change. All seems not very genuine.

Welll that sure looks like a pair of "well maaaybe" stances. On both sides of the fence even!

I haven't concluded anything on Tajo yet. I was waiting for some more discussion surrounding his list (such as answers to the questions I asked you previously in this post). It is suspicious that tajo was calling out lurkers players who got prodded once, and then had to post with the sole purpose of avoiding a prod.

As for you spy, well I'm curious as to why your 2 votes today were both on the easy targets, both leading wagons. Everytime I've played with you as town, you're usually the one leading the wagons and coming up with reasons. You seem to think hero and I are scum though, but it seems superficial, because in the same post you decide we're both scum, you end the post with a vote on hoopla. Not getting why I'm somehow linked with hero, either.

Again unwilling to call anyone scum. Nicely played.

And yes I have only voted for easy wagons. No sir did I not start any wagons or provide any cases on anyone whom I still think are scum BUT ALAS can't get any traction on and haven't made that clear.

True story.

[SpyreX]

We can multitask. Do you have questions?

Also, how do you feel about Zoraster 508 and 516?

Hrmmm. Somehow I missed that entirely.

GOD TWO OF THIS DOES NOT MAKE A CAKE.

Good lord he even replied to tajo replying to Rhinox. My eeeeyees.

I can't believe both would be scum though.

On the plus side this does make me feel a bit better about you Hero. A bit.

[SpyreX]

The vanishing act doesn't do me hot.

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla

I WANT VV DEAD SOON HOWEVER FOR A MURDERIN PARTY

[SpyreX]

Hoopla GOOD LORD WHY DIDNT YOU DO THAT EARLIER.

God in heaven. We could have got ALL of that out of this without this lynch going through.

If this is janned this is a town lynch. Period.

[SpyreX]

I'd still much rather lynch a scum you know especially since until you vanished and stopped playing I didn't like it DOUBLY so considering [ongoing games redacted].

It's a smooth move but still an unnecessary sacrifice to protect the analysis.

[SpyreX]

Ohh I applaud it. I think we could have got 95% of the results and an all but confirmed town AND a different lynch if you had dropped that bomb without the hammer fo' sho and that's what I'm gritting my teeth at.

Reaaaaly? Good gravy girl

[SpyreX]

If she had explained what she was doing without actually placing the self-hammer, then (a) the scum could have retracted their use of the ability, and/or (b) there would have been some doubts that the gambit might have been staged (would you believe someone who, in response to a wagon forming on them, claimed that they were only pretending to act scummy?)

There was absolutely no question in my mind as soon as I saw that post Hoopla was town. While it was awesome it would have only been awesomer if the net result was a confirmed town and a whole bucket of analysis AND a shot for a scum flip.

That said while the first thing that comes to mind when you say "I totally saw the breadcrumb" is an eye raise you are right about as scum counterbalancing that plan by knowing about it. Which means as scum you've opted to blow smoke (???) or you're scum with hoopla (?????) or...
you're town.

I'm thinking its the latter by a margin.

That said VV is still scum.

Unvote, Vote: VV

[SpyreX]

Now that I reread this with the brain fully functioning.

Unvote, Vote: Elmo

Mith, why are you playing up every option besides "KMD tracked Elmo directly to the kill".

This isn't rocket science. Killing a scum now frees up the the actual vig to go hunting for the other scum (hint: VV). Further, Elmo being ON the hoopla wagon sheds some light on what is going on there.

If town, Elmo can't be a JK, Hider or Doc. Its either Tracker or Vig. I'm not buying some kinda "ohh, the tracker tracked the 'other' tracker to the dead guy" so its pretty much vig or scum.

And when ISO reveals nothing about Amished but there sure could have been reasons for a VV or KMD shot

at minimum

an explanation is in order. Which we're not getting.

So, I'm aiming for

d.) Lynch Elmo, scum flip, real vig gets to shoot at other tech players in this dance (VV springs to mind again or a mithbuster). High fives all around.

[SpyreX]

Going out for a movie but I'm not done with this.

In the meantime,

@Elmo:

Why did you take that shot over others?

[SpyreX]

Hrmm.

Since you quoted me at the start I'll respond to the only thing I shook my head at:

I actually think you would actually find literally any choice of shot suspicious unless they flipped scum, because either they'd contradict what I've already said or they'd be people you think are bad choices.

No. If you had shot KMD, DGB,or VV and claimed that shot there wouldn't have been any doubt (on the flipside I would have lynched the hell out of you with a Zor shot). I -kind- of see what you are saying about Amished but ultimately, after washing the bad taste of a terrible few days out of my mouth Mith et al is right - it is a wash(ish). You're either blocked as town or dead as scum.

So,

Going out for a movie but I'm not done with this.

OMG LAL

Unvote, Vote: VV

[SpyreX]

Damnit, beaten.

Yea.

[SpyreX]

Kind of my point - shooting KMD or VV directly contradicts what I've previously said. I don't know why you'd lynch me if I shot Zoraster - I thought he was scummy, you didn't, so I must be mafia? Whatever.

Huh?

Why are you voting in that manner based on the events of Day 0 while you were basically completely uninterested in getting views and so on during it?

Hoopla, could you explain why the "lynch all claimed power roles" part of your plan was a good idea, or link to why? I don't think I ever saw an explanation, and I don't get it.

vote kmd4390

About the only thing I dislike is the lurking; I don't think it makes him scummy, but it does make me more willing to lynch him, if that makes sense.

This VasudeVa business doesn't look to be built on much, as far as I can see, although Amished's stance appears to suck. KMD is doing not a great deal, I could probably go with him dying still - mith, why did you think his behaviour was somewhat townish?

Hoopla>VasudeVa>>>zoraster I guess? I forgot we were this close to deadline when

wagoning zor, I don't particularly want to kill him

:V

That's what I based this all on: looks like I was the most wrong about DGB but that sure looks like rationales for shots on VV or KMD and most definitely a rationale to NOT shoot Zor.

Soooo, what? How would those shots have contradicted what you've previously said.

[SpyreX]

Fffff we've ground to a halt.

My moonbeams have died under the blinding light of headdesk with elmo AND team VV defense squadron.

[SpyreX]

I don't get it.

Seraph is reading faiirrly town AND SUPER TOWN if VV is scum because no way in hell this is a bus.

The VV ardent task force is rising once again to the matter at hand and its awesome.

On the flipside:

Zito can you explain for me like Elli in babysteps because I'm missing it.

[SpyreX]

This ain't a bus, Sweet Moonbeams, this is scum losing all sense of perspective going after a townie.

The hell?

I want VV explained in simple, clean "this is why he is town and Sera is scum for going after him"

Bonus points on why Sera is scum and I'm not because I'm been pretty clear about wanting VV dead as well.

[SpyreX]

But actually what I really want is more spyrex in this game. I mean, yesterday he was making an argument where I was doing pretty much nothing. I would argue that today, especially over the last week, spyrex is now guilty of that accusation.

I AM guilty of it, to a degree. I probably need to sit down and recalibrate on the game as a whole.

However, I'm not sure what secret decoder ring I need to get things answered because I've sure had a lot of that. Like this one I STILL really want addressed from that wave of Sera votes (or Sera prep votes) OR the Vas is sooo town:

The hell?

I want VV explained in simple, clean "this is why he is town and Sera is scum for going after him"

Bonus points on why Sera is scum and I'm not because I'm been pretty clear about wanting VV dead as well.

Additionally, NOW that I see what Zito is saying I'm interested - however, I'm not seeing bus. Ooba ISO 25 isn't the bussing angle kind of business. A VV scumflip goes a long way to clearing ooba in my head (and makes Sera clear, period).

But, this:

If we're going to lynch based on the "VV is town" assumption, spyrex is a much better lynch. He hasn't really been too assertive in pushing the lynch which tells me he wants it to happen but he doesn't want to lead the charge.

If you're saying I haven't clearly been saying that VV is scum for a good long time and MOST OF SAID TIME been dealing with "ohh meta says #E$&*(#&($&#($H" well I don't know.

[SpyreX]

We still have 6 days or so but we really need to start laying down the law here. People, in their next post, should post the order of preference for three of the current "wagons" going right now or even better, change your vote for who you want to lynch. Game is stagnating a little and this needs to be rectified.

VasudeVa>>>>zoraster(so THAT'S why people are voting him)>>DGB

Why do you say three wagons and have DGB up there and not Ooba?

I want a real caught up post from zoraster before I delve into the pot o' three that isn't VV.

[SpyreX]

God prods.

Simple explanation: I'm an idiot. In my defense, to my knowledge KMD has never actually outright claimed tracker, he just made statements of certainty. Regardless, it's something I should have caught, I suppose.

If you've read close enough to see statements of certainty, there's NO way (as illustrated by ekim above) that you could have missed the fact he actually was a tracker. Maaaybe while it was going on, but no way in a reread.

The QT angle makes little sense - why, WHY, would they say in this group under pressure to play dumb versus speeding things up?

Unvote, Vote: Zor

[SpyreX]

@Rhinox and SpyreX: As of right now, who do you wanna lynch toDay and why?

This is what you're still waiting on?

VV or Zor.

VV is pretty clear.

Zor, again, could not have reread and missed that. Its flat impossible.

[SpyreX]

No.

The discussion about KMD's claim was a focal point of the day.

31, 32, 33, 34 with a smattering on other pages.

I did a readthrough a few days ago when I was catching up with the game, and then did the person-by-person analysis mostly by iso (sometimes checking the context for things).

These two things do not go together. They are the matter and the anti matter.

[SpyreX]

Shock and awe VV thinks someone who think's he's scum is scum. WHAT A SURPRISE.

[SpyreX]

Your conclusion is ____

Readily apparent?

[SpyreX]

? Consistency within a game is a town-tell.

However, consistently scummy behavior that is held up under the "LOL META" and is repeatedly not only getting away with it but actively defended?

Yea, that's scum.

[SpyreX]

or you got roleblocked. Either way, no result today.

?

[SpyreX]

But he said he tracked him to nowhere? Not that he didn't perform an action?

[SpyreX]

Ahhhhh.

Except he's saying he got X went nowhere not no result.

Regardless:

Unvote, Vote: VV

What changed your mind on this vote there holmes?

[SpyreX]

I've missed you IAUN and your ability to be awesome AND in that perfect awesome way.

I'm a little surprised to see ekiM that low, actually. And maybe its shared hate dissonance but I'd have Sera in that nasty grolive color. And MME's jump this page I don't like at all under the 2scum4scum (see: VV gambit) guise.

I still prefer VV independently by a margin and could use that to clean up a few things on the flipside but I sure wont oppose Rhinox or DGB. Definitely over mith.

[SpyreX]

Ok, this page really exemplifies my issues with whats going on:

You've got mith 'arguing' with KMD who is town.

You've got Rhinox all riled up with IAUN without calling scum (and who is town).

You've got VV giving his same old song and dance wedged between these walls that are reaaallly hard to read.

And then you've got a lot of nothing else.

I want some normal, fits on the screen, actual IDEAS from the majority of the game laid out without these giant walls. IAUN's at least makes sense as a catchup but good lord.

[SpyreX]

I'm not voting you for 'your playstyle' BUT FEEL MY SHOCK AND AWE THAT YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

I mean, seriously. You've been the most reflective player here and the fact that you've been actually ALLOWED to go "ohh its my playstyle" or "lol I'm scummy" and that's fine makes my teeth itch and, AGAIN, I'll sit here and try to do this and fail. Its a fun game.

That said, while I'm not sold on DGB scum (although VV calling her 'real town' and her saying Rhinox is town are :bonk:) and I <3 some votecounts there's obviously a wire crossed when you're your 3rd highest.

Who are we missing? It feels like prod time again.

[SpyreX]

VV is pretty straightforward. If I have to go gather the myriad of iso quotes to establish this I will but seriously:

VV has done nothing. His 'scumlist' has been almost universally people who have found him scummy (for not actually doing anything). Further, when called out, its been the repeated litany of "I'm scummy but everyone who thinks I'm scummy is actually the scum". This is normally followed by long periods of silence (and he's active on site) to jump in and continue on which ever crusade against who thinks he's scum is the most vocal about it at that point in time.

[SpyreX]

This page is the best exchange.

And, again, I don't think I really need to go hunt them all down when he's nice enough to do it again here. "I'm scummy, so people think I'm scum, thus I don't play and everyone attacking me is scum"

[SpyreX]

I have no more words now. Perhaps more after football.

[SpyreX]

I'll give you the dancin time (maybe it'll help with the heap of midrangers):

Town:
8). Kmd4390 - Yea.
12). iamausername (replacing Papa Zito) - PZ was town. IAUN is town.
16). Seraphim (replacing Slicey) - Maybe its the same wavelengthitude or what have you but, more and more, I like Sera as town independent of VV's flip. If VV is scum this is a no brainer.
3). ekiM - While more is better I really like the ekiM of yore.
4). Ellibereth - gut. Raw, awesome gut.

The Morass (**):
13). Plumegranate - Individually, more words. In the ** there's a weird touchy feely with VV that I don't like.
9). mith - The raw amount of energy spent in this fight with KMD is disconcerting. Elmo flipping vig and not scum helps SOME but.
20). AdumbroDeus (replacing Zorblag) - 9 posts. I think I'm brought up in half of them. More. More. More. However, in comparison to others not as f--.
2). DrippingGoofball - Town boner on Rhinox is f--.

There IS A scum here:
10). My Milked Eek - 9 posts. All game and MOST of them are about the D0 stuff. Then SK jumped in to be BOTH an ardent VV defender AND attack Sera. My lord. Of course MME came back with the most hand-wringiest mith vote ever.
11). ooba - I'm pretty sure we're up to 5:1 odds on some form of "I'm rereading the game" being the words that come out in the next post.

Scum:
15). Rhinox - Going up to bat with IAUN? Awesome. Defending VV? Awesomer. Vanishing act ex machina? Awesomest. Of course. Just a small sunflower compared to the sun that is
18). VasudeVa -

No, I meant scum are likely to attack me(since I'm easy to attack and all.).

That quote. In a million versions. That is VV this entire game.

Soooo the interesting bit(s):

VV scum:
Sera town for sure.
MME scum (thus,

probably

ooba town).
Plum scum++

VV town:
heat death of the universe.

Rhinox scum:
IAUN town for sure.
DGB scum++

Rhinox town:
ehh. I'm not sure what really changes in my reads here which bothers me.

DGB scum:
Mith town.

DGB town:
Mith scum.

Aside from that the only piece is I'm confident enough in team town up there that if I could nuke the rest of the game I'm confident that would be a town win. So, yea, there you go.

[SpyreX]

THAT makes more sense than DGB scum mith scum but I still aint buyin it, sweetheart.

[SpyreX]

Not really. That kind of setup talk doesn't do it for me.

ALTHOUGH, I'm glad you pointed that one out specifically because that sure puts an interesting twist on things (hint: scums) if DGB is scum.

[SpyreX]

Damnit Fate while I appreciate the awesome we got a few points to cover:

1.) Hoopla scum? I'm gonna need more because while not thrilled that maneuver oozes town.
2.) Sera scum? He's been one with the hatemachine.
3.) VV TOWN FATE NO DONT YOU BE THAT GUY. NO.

Pretty much everything else <3

[SpyreX]

1) We know the setup to be 2 VIGS and a tracker. Search your soul and if you don't find it there I'll explain next week with two hands. For shenanigans purposes I'll play along as if there were 4 though
2) Remember how much justified hate you had for soras+KoC? REMEMBER??
3) I didn't want to be. I really didn't. I want to come in here and cruise on a VV lynch regardless of alignment for his D1 play, but D2+3 has me convinced.

1.) Fatteeee read the setup better yo. There's 4 town PR's assigned by scum. Scum have RB and 1-shot Jan. Hoopla sacc'd themselves to waste the jan (woosh but a town woosh). My magic 8 ball is still showing Vig + Tracker with the other two unknown. Where are you getting 2 vigs from?

2.) TRUE but if I'm lynching for that knot I'd still prefer a VV yo.

3.) HELP ME UNDERSTAND what you see. I'm missing it entirely.

[SpyreX]

COMPROMISE TIME SPYREX.

He had 36 posts to go to be fully caught up, but he just peaced out. Not to mention how lacking in freshness his catchup post was thus far.

Unvote:
Vote: ooba

Also I get 2 vigs from it being really unlikely that they didn't RB Elmo OR KMD last night, as there was no way they'd let a known vig get a freebie shot off on mislynch fodder. Plus 2 vigs 2 trackers seems about right when lining up shitty PRs that dont jive well for the town to have (as you can see with half our PRs being outted by D2)

I ACCEPT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OUTLINED.

Unvote, Vote: ooba

If 2 vigs whats up with the kills then?

[SpyreX]

@Rhinox: You're letting oobas ISO #2 hold you back? Good god man theres nothing remotely town in that post don't overthink your damn self

THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

IT WILL BE APPARENT IF CLEARING THE CHAFF LEADS TO SWEET DIAMONDS.

Mmm, diamonds.

(Yes I'm aware thats to Rhinox)

(Its still true)

[SpyreX]

I've generally had a good track record of spotting when your town - but you've just replaced in. I can't force a read.

FFFF

Fate you ought to be ashamed to fuel a wagon where SPYREXscum has been sitting alone for the longest time waiting your some player to have FruitSisters cold feet.

FFFFFF

Go team awesome!

I'm not opposed to Plum but thats more of a MORE WORDS versus ooba/mme which I'm pretty sure there's done be a scums up ins.

Of course I'd still love to lynch VV but no chance of that happening with the replacementitis woooo.

[SpyreX]

Similar?
Vut?
Me no see it at all.
And don't get blend vibe either.

Blend requires words.

There's way more of a bizarro connection in the MME / ooba play that lends REAL hard to a scum hidin there but plum is a different bag of f-- these days.

[SpyreX]

</3

What do you mean you're not opposed to me????

You've been off the grid WAY too much here and I don't like it.

However, I like the majority of that post and maybe a few more will direct this hard and solid back at ooba (or VV sigh) where it should be.

[SpyreX]

Hacker SURE hasn't done anything that's made me shake that hate.

And have both you girls done lost your marbles?

[SpyreX]

I missed the memo where Plum making a good post meant leaping to DGB and not ooba.

But, I'm down for stuff.

Unvote, Vote: DGB

STILL WOULD <3 OOBA MORE BUT

[SpyreX]

....

Ok, two major things first that need to happen:

1.) What in blue blazes possessed you to do the hider stunt?
2.) Why KMD N1?

[SpyreX]

Ugh my reads this game. >.>
Kay, first things first.
I think if there is another town vig who has been shooting and getting blocked, they can claim since
1) scum already know who they are. and 2) They're worried that the guy will shoot someone that's scumz > town.
On that note, one of KMD's town reads is probably scum and doing the kill.

What makes you think there's a second vig when every set of nights points to one?

Why the HELL is Seraphim in your obvtown category. No, fuckin seriously.

Vote: Seraphim

Adumbro could use some rope as well soon.

Can we do this the other way?

Vote: HackerHuck

HH is still VV is still F-- is STILL not bussing by Sera.

[SpyreX]

Hay hay hay

I'm missing it. I'm not seeing that hand wringing as blowing in the wind versus actually confused.

Please let me lynch VV already please god

[SpyreX]

GOD

Fate if he's scum I swear I want an essay on my desk about listening to SpyreX.

Unvote, Vote: Adumbro

[SpyreX]

Fate: At the moment, I would rather lynch you than ooba.

Que?

I'd still prefer a HH especially since I can't wrap my head around the real mustache twirling motive for Adumbro's madness buttt

[SpyreX]

I, grimlock, would like to see this hammer.

This new savant approach to this is the twirling. Fair enough.

[SpyreX]

Either I am a (Vanilla) Townsperson, or I am the Vig and think there is enough of a chance that I can get two shots off to warrant my staying hidden.

IT IS TIME TO DO THIS RIGHT DAMNIT FATE

[SpyreX]

And by that I mean:

Vote: HH

[SpyreX]

Mith - I can't really respond to what you've posted since most of it relates to VV's behaviour. I would like you to look at my wagon yesterday and see if it makes sense that a scum-hacker would have gone to L-1 and then had the wagon dissipate the way it did. I'm going to do the same thing, but I'm curious to see what your take on it will be.

Did you just really imply that a scum wagon wouldn't dissipate?

I'm glad this is finally happening. It only took three shades past forever.

[SpyreX]

IAM is town regardless. One of those special snowflakes.

Sooooo if a scum Sera flip confirms HH like you've been saying and a scum VV flip confirms Sera...

ARENT WE DOING THE SAME THING

I'd be down for Ooba BUT I WANT THIS GIVE ME IT PLEASE

[SpyreX]

That analysis said, amongst other awesome things:

If I'm scum, SpyreX is scum.
If I'm town, SpyreX is scum.

Which is really cool with that PF vote.

[SpyreX]

No I'm saying going "IN ALL SCENARIOS SPYREX IS SCUM" and having that parked vote is awesome.

L-1 or L-50 ooba DOES need to post a real thing and replacement three: return of the replacementism can make words so fate finally sees the light.

[SpyreX]

Post. Words. Good Words. Or Die.

Replacement refers to the replacement that just replaced for the replacement.

[SpyreX]

Sall good where it is. If someone wants to jump the hammer more power to them (hint: jumping the hammer involves becoming hammered)

[SpyreX]

Because that's just as ridiculous as me and my ego warrants me dealing with that on the me side sucka.

[SpyreX]

Wooosh

Unvote, Vote: Ooba

Being unable to produce anything ever is tech.

[SpyreX]

No, seriously, what the hell kind of business is OHH YEA WHO ARE MY SCUMBUDDIES HUH TOUGH GUY?

[SpyreX]

Good lord is it both of them?

Can it be?

[SpyreX]

VT huh?

Nope, not buying it.

[SpyreX]

They're sure acting like BFF's in that not awesome way.

I WANT THIS DAY TO ENDDDDDDDD

[SpyreX]

Ok, can we get this done so we can get to lynching HH because my GOD:

Hey Spyrex, Pokerface is bussing you and he's using the same logic I did. Where are you now?

ACTUALLY, there's a fundamental difference (while PF is on the drugs and you're scum and all):

Pokerface is saying "SpyreX is scum IF only one of ooba/HH is scum"

You're saying "In all scenarios SpyreX is scum."

AND FATE I SWEAR TO EVERYTHING IF OOBA IS TOWN AND HH IS SCUM YOU BETTER BE SCUM OR YOUR TURNING IN YOUR BADGE.

[SpyreX]

NOTTT to mention HH that IF you believed your own madness that PF is trying to bus me THEN his statement of "one of X and Y" is scum would HAVE to be true and if, like you're so apt to say, you were town that would MAKE OOBA SCUM.

Yet, nope. Just throwin out those softballs.

And I'll not derail the textdummie since we're obviously waiting until he's done.

[SpyreX]

YOU KNOW WHY

[SpyreX]

I will finish my analysis tomorrow just to spite Fate. Good night.

WHY

WHY GOD

[SpyreX]

Lol .. I actually thought I was hammered .. I shall also skim read D1-D2 and give you my findings (hopefully before I'm lynched) ..

TICK TOCK GOES THE CLOCK

[SpyreX]

No, thats me calling him out on more "I'll reread guys" when he has no intention of doing so.

[SpyreX]

AND AND despite how much I want him dead the oobster is a pile of scumseasame seeds that if he's the roleblocker WOO NELLY its gonna be some fun times.

[SpyreX]

Pretttty sure I'm not scum.

Pretttty sure ooba and vv are scum.

[SpyreX]

Options are getting limited.

Its not you.
Its not mith.
Its not me.
Its not iaun.

After watching TEAM POKERFACE I'm doubting that.
CTD's f-- nonwithstanding I don't think its him.

That leaves VV, Ooba, Plum

[SpyreX]

Pfffft on meta. The fruittettes I like when they're here. They're just not HERE enough.

If through some miracle of hate ooba isn't scum then I'll do a huge plum review tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

If they're both scum together ooba's wwaaaay more likely to be the rb.

But, giggles are what they are you know the answer to that

[SpyreX]

FOR KING AND COUNTRY

Unvote, Vote: HH

[SpyreX]

Hot damn balls of steel.

That whole sequence from 1938 to 1944 is icky. SpyreX looks worst, but I don't like that Fate goaded him into switching. On the other hand, what does scumFate gain from going so hard after scumooba? Maybe he thought HH would go down anyway (which is what happened, but it didn't seem likely until the very end; if HH had voted ooba instead of throwing himself on his sword in an endgame maybe we lynch ooba and go some way toward clearin

I'm going to need more than icky - and considering everything Fate sure as hell didn't 'goad' me into it.

That SAID I'm missing something. I've had IAUN as town from the before times although he pulled a great vanishing act. Fate and mith still are town. PF and Plum doesn't seem right.

FFF

[SpyreX]

MAYBE I DONT WANT TO GIVE UP MY CARD.

There's one thing nagging that I need to review but yea

[SpyreX]

Ohh dont you start that again.

[SpyreX]

DAMNIT FATE

NO.

I'll have more words later

[SpyreX]

Damnit you.

I need to finish this STILL but I really don't think its iaun.

I'm leaning hard on PF/mith.

Yea, thats right.

Especially the interactions with ooba. AND, ohh SNAP, the CTD kill.

Because, and I know we're gonna dance with this BUT DAMNIT YOU, I most definitely wouldn't have killed CTD. Not after his whole SpyreX is bussing HH and an HH town flip.

[SpyreX]

I KNEW that was what you were gonna say.

Apples and oranges and you know it. If you think I would entertain that stunt working a.) in this group and b.) TWICE WITH YOU META NONWITHSTANDING then I'm not coming to your birthday party

[SpyreX]

Can we get a prod on IAUN?

I just got home and I'm on some painkillers sooo I'll try and make sure this makes sense.

Fate: You're doing it wrong again. But FWIW, if your point is "ooba knows HH is going to flip scum, they're scum together", I think it's a good one. "Overall, pretty weak reasons for setting up my lynch tomorrow" doesn't look very good either (though to be fair he does make that one conditional with a "what if HH is town?" add-on).

(Still prefer HackerHuck lynch. But I'd vote ooba over anyone else, now.)

ooba: If you haven't come through on this re-read post in the next 24 hours, my vote will be moving to you. (It may move there anyway. Fate's argument is pretty persuasive.)

Hoping to have some free time this afternoon to look at possible scumgroups. Having two active wagons is helpful on that front.

Right now, a scumteam of HackerHuck/ooba/[as yet uncaught third member] seems very likely. If HackerHuck is scum and ooba is town, I would have a hard time going outside the group of (SpyreX, PokerFace, Fate), in that order.

If HackerHuck is town and ooba is scum, SpyreX and Fate look better

and I'd have to reconsider Seraphim and iamausername. If they're both town, I've lost my mind.

That whole sequence from 1938 to 1944 is icky.

SpyreX looks worst, but I don't like that Fate goaded him into switching.

On the other hand, what does scumFate gain from going so hard after scumooba? Maybe he thought HH would go down anyway (which is what happened, but it didn't seem likely until the very end; if HH had voted ooba instead of throwing himself on his sword in an endgame maybe we lynch ooba and go some way toward clearing HH).

I need to review iamausername. And the end of day 3 again; we had two scum in the mix and came close to lynching Plumegranate instead.

Gut ranking of possible scumgroups:

PokerFace-SpyreX
PokerFace-iamausername
SpyreX-Fate
PokerFace-Fate
SpyreX-iamausername
iamausername-Fate

THIS is part of the ooba-mith issue that I need to REALLY go back and dig at. I really don't like the lowball please post. I extra don't like the 'goad' business trying to tie us together.

The one that really blows my mind? The Fate and SpyreX look better if ooba scum equating to me being scum with PF being the most likely BUT the focus of words has been PF and Fate which ranks lower than the hilarious SpyreX-Fate comboooo breaker.

[SpyreX]

WHAT DOESNT COMPUTE

FATTEEE

He seriously went from "They're cool if ooba is scum" to "They're both icky".

AND DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE OTHER TALK WE ARE GONNA HAVE

[SpyreX]

Slicey is dead?

He was the CTD/Sera

OHH I EE

[SpyreX]

I'M GOING TO SLEEP AND UNTIL YOU GIVE ME WHY I AM SCUM SO WE CAN FIX YOUR MADNESS WHAT THE HELL ELSE DO YOU WANT

BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE A TALK ABOUT THAT

AND THE WORDS WIFOM, META AND FOR LULZ WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN YOUR ANSWERS

[SpyreX]

I TOLD YOU WHO SCUM IS AND UNTIL YOU QUIT YOUR TEAPARTY WHAT DO YOU WANT

To follow your analogy with YOU, I've got to wait for the pitch because you're the same damn team. AND you're not pitching just kinda spitting and staring at 2nd base.

I like how SpyreX-on-moonbeamspainkillers thinks that he can bold parts of two different posts and suggest that the first is "equating to" the second, as though nothing happened in between the two posts. Obviously something happened between "SpyreX and Fate look better" and "SpyreX looks worst [among participants in aforementioned icky sequence]" - about 100 posts were made, including 1942. I guess it's possible a pro-town player to think ooba is obvscum and the more likely of the two to be the Roleblocker (whose death potentially earns the town an extra kill)... and then switch back to the HH-wagon for "giggles" (I can't rule anything out, after some of the town play in this game). But possible != likely in this case.

You're saying 1942 (which sure wasn't there in the 'icky' post) is the switch from probably town to probably scum?

And that this is based on my thinking they're both scum together and opting to hammer a lynch on the one I didn't think would be the RB if they're both scum together?

I have this right?

Because, if that's the argument for that 180 and you're disregarding the simple inherent fact that at that point I was very clearly saying either of them flipping scum means the other is getting lynched and flipping scum it doesn't matter because then the game is over?

Yeaaa

[SpyreX]

I CONTROL THE PAST AND FUTURE

I KNOW ALL

(I think the site is having some kinda madness)

[SpyreX]

ALRIGHT FATE NO MORE WAITING

You've got mith coming in saying he's settled.
You've got Plum doing her best Fate impersonation.
You've got iaun (who is TOWN AND BETTER UNSCREW THAT LIGHTBULB) settled on me
and, as per yesterday, PF is gonna throw down.

SO YOUR CASE COMES NOW AND I HOPE TO GOD ITS "HAHA GAMBIT SPYREX IS TOWN" BECAUSE THE ABOVE SHOULD SHOW YOU SOMETHING IS AMISS

BECAUSE YOU KNOW LIKE I DO BUSSING MAKES NO SENSE WITH A VIG IN PLAY AT THIS POINT

[SpyreX]

Look SEE NO DRUGS. I'm here, cognizant AND MORE THAN A LITTLE SURPRISED at you teapartying with iaun instead of getting to business.

[SpyreX]

We don't have the luxury of multi-step plans.

And yes, AMONG THE OTHER THINGS WERE GOING TO DISCUSS, the simple fact that everyone has come out of the woodwork to, despite anything else said at other points, go "ohh yea its SpyreX" SHOULD MAKE YOU GO HUH.

I've got at least an hour in me.

[SpyreX]

ALRIGHT ITS ABOUT TIME

Let's summarize his play in my usual caps mocking fashion:
D1-
"ZOMG VV IS SO SCUMMEH. WDF GUIZ HE DOES NOTHING"
"You're doing nothing except calling VVscum"
"??????????!!!!!!!!!? I VOTE TOWNIES AT LEAST!"

Thats not even a good mock yo and you know it.

If you're going to say that ALL I TRIED TO DO D1 was go after VV lets get that clear. Because good lord man.

DGB had no scum motive, let's clear him. This makes no sense given DGB's quite well known meta of doing batshit crazy things meaning it was a null-tell Spy tried to pass of as a TOWN tell to clear his buddy.

I THOUGHT WE ESTABLISHED META WASNT PART OF THIS MR

That aside, it was white noise - because she came clean D0. Thats why it didn't make sense as a scum move. Not "OMG TOWNNN" but not "ohh shit we better get lynching"

#1 Light reason to switch from ZOMG VV SCUM, to the main townie wagon. Today's flavor: Lurking through a wagon.

Did SpyreX just run out of his bag of tricks and resort to META to explain his "fabricated" reads? FOR SHAME.

These get grouped together because they are the same thing. The fact I WAS IN A GAME THAT HOOPS WAS ACTIVE IN sure made it look like she was just skeetching through this wagon. And I've never, ever, EVER said checking activity across site is part of the 'meta' that pisses me off. It's normally a pretty good flag and that's why I was pissed.

Turns his slip on his head by trying to further indite VV with it, but not defending the slip or explaining it reasonably in anyway. SCUM REACTION+

Except, I did 'defend' it? Before he posted waited then went 'ohh I think thats a slip but poor me everyone thinks I'm scum'.

Today's reasoning: "Well we got confirmed info that he's tracked to the kill and since he didn't breacrumb let's just lynch and find out." Lolwut? Not crumbing/posting suspicion in thread means he cant' take the shot?

Damnit man IN THAT POST I GAVE THE LOGIC.

It wasn't lol, breadcrumbs. It was "Amished was not mentioned and that target over at least shooting someone you said was scummy would make a hell of a lot of sense"

AND GOOD LORD CONSIDERING WHAT HAPPENED YOU THINK SPYREX SCUM SAID YO LETS LYNCH A VIG THE OTHER SURE WONT SHOOT ME FOR IT JESUS.

#2 On "REASON D'JOUR FOR NOT GETTING VV LYNCHED:" zomg Zor missed something that no TOWNIE would ever miss, [but of course scum would miss a thing like that] brackets part is MISSING.

WHAT

NO. NO ONE CATCHES ALL THE CERTAINTY AND US TALKING ABOUT HIM BEING A TRACKER AND THEN MISSES IT.

Now THIS one's funny when you realize how content-free SpyreX's ISO is when it comes to MAKING CASES AND SLAMMIN DUNKS.

Hells no. NOW, you could say I've been way off but I WAS TRYING WITH HERO AND RHINOX. GOD.

NOW THIS IAMUSERNAME IS >ACTUAL< "Clear one buddy of the other's flip" SCUM PLAY.

Or not thinking that that amazing shitstorm was alignment-same. GOOD GOD

#3 on our special segment. This time its sheeping, me, Fate, which is USUALLY excellent play but my extremeTownread on his extreScumreadVV should have given him pause to automatically assuming I'm town.

FATE

NOW YOU ARE BEING ACTIVELY OBTUSE AND I DONT LIKE IT

I ARGUED WITH YOU OVER AND OVER ABOUT HIM. FROM RIGHT WHEN YOU REPLACED IN GOOD GOD.

HOWEVER, CONSIDERING HOW OFF I'D BEEN AND HOW TOWN YOU ARE (HINT: EVEN THIS DOESNT CHANGE THAT AND IF I HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY I WILL THROTTLE YOU) MAYBE YOU SAW SOMETHING ID BEEN MISSING.

YOU KNOW LIKE WITH DGB

-----

That said, considering I'm on board with you about Mith we're going to have a frank talk about the series of events you bring up that flat don't make sense with me scum and you know it just rethink it good lord almighty:

1.) Why, WHY, would I have killed CTD? You say he suspected me but he only suspected me

if I was right about VV

. In fact, as scum I have even more reason to keep him alive BECAUSE of that.
2.) If the scum plan is two vigs for hilarity why in the name of everything would I want Elmo lynched considering a town flip is a giant red X on my skull?
3.) Considering D0, WHY would I ever let a D1 Jan go through? It was absolutely overvalued and WE BOTH KNOW that I would have milked that train forever.

THOSE ASIDE:

1.)

MassClaim Given that the set-up was indeed designed to fuck town over and a mass-claim would have given us very likely TWO confirmed towns (the vigs) that could shoot at night and LOTS of extra info means this is a very town motivated plan.

A massclaim would have nuked the vigs. Nuked them. Yea there would have been a double-track to deal with but a massclaim makes N1 Block/Kill vig and even if a scum is busted as long as its not an RB probably a repeat performance the next night (with a tracker coming out for a 3-1).

Which leads to:

2.) Good lord man reread this FOR REAL and pull it together. Mith is scum, and I'll have a chat with you later about PF. A real one. Here's a taste:

Mith and Plumegranate are the remaining wagons I got left to discuss. I don't think Mith wopuld put a vig in this game and I have a vague memory of him not being a vig fan from somewhere in MD. Likely in a PIE vig advice thread. The Fruits had some interesting swaying thoughts on Vasdeva, Zoraster, Troll, and KMD. They shifted, usually in the same post between calling people town or scum or leaning different ways on them. Most of this went on day 1 and 2 in what reads i did of those days. Like they were afraid to give a straight opinion. Given that and the effect that its the largest I think I'll get behind it.

----

AND NOW I SEE YOU COME OUT DAMNIT.

FATE.

FOLLOW ME HERE.

I WAS THE ONE WHO CALLED YOU OUT.

I AM NOT RETARDED. I WAS PRETTY SURE AT THAT MOMENT YOU WERE EITHER SCUM OR THE VIG AND YOU SURE WERENT PLAYING SCUM. YOU KNOW, KNOW I WOULD HAVE SHOT YOU.

Although I'm more than a little surprised EkiM shot Tajo meaning a scum NK. I thought for sure you were blocked and that was part of the 'backtracking' you did.

[SpyreX]

I guess I don't have to explain the town part now I hope.

GOD.

[SpyreX]

I do wish you had waited until Mith claimed vig though.

[SpyreX]

Where I said I still know you're town even though I want to throttle you. Because I was PRETTY CONFIDENT you were the vig.

[SpyreX]

Lurker slots always give me trouble

endgame

.

Yes.

Good gravy can I sleep now?

I was really hoping it was BOOM SPYREX WAS A RUSE GAMBIT

[SpyreX]

I was going to gambit it up but I had written so much Spyscum text I rolled with it even though rereading the game gave me a town read on you again...

Is it possible to both brolove and brohate at the same time?

Because, I think I'm there.

And sleeping.

[SpyreX]

Ohhhh beautiful.

just so you know. I won't discuss how I feel about the claim until everyone else checks in and I'm all caught up on things

I'm not going to counter-claim, whatever my role is, because I think Fate is trying to out the real Vig, and I'd rather have two chances to figure out whether his buddy is PokerFace or SpyreX than just one.

AHhhh, nothing like watching the setup.

For one, there is no way a vanilla townie would propose lynching an uncountered vig claim when it is 100% confirmed that we have a vig, and lynching that vig today would result in an immediate town loss, so mith may as well just go ahead and counterclaim.

And then the failure.

PokerFace is the more likely Roleblocker, with the SpyreX-Janitor link Fate pointed out earlier, so I'm voting that way in hopes of getting an extra shot despite Fate's ill-timed claim.

(Given that Fate thinks it's SpyreX/mith, that's probably just going to confirm his suspicions, but there's not much I can do about that with my vote. I'll respond to his post later, have to run an errand now.)

VOTE: PokerFace

and then the bus.

----
And, because I have to:

SpyreX: "You're saying 1942 (which sure wasn't there in the 'icky' post)" - "That whole sequence from 1938 to 1944 is icky." Er... last I checked 1942 was in the sequence from 1938 to 1944.

As for the rest, the thinking is that if you were town and thought they were both scum, you wouldn't move away from the one you thought was the Roleblocker, because a dead Roleblocker = increased likelihood of an extra shot gained through the Vig shooting twice. Even with HH/ooba both being scum, there would be one scum left, and lynching HH first means that if ooba really is the Roleblocker he has a chance to block the Vig that night (and after we lynch ooba, we only have two chances to hit the last scum, rather than the three we have if ooba is lynched, HH is Vig'd, and the scum don't kill the Vig).

No. You went "

1938 to 1944

is icky" Not, "1942 isn't something a town would do".

Of course, with coming out trying to appease Fate and CTD dead when asked its gotta be that (what happened to the goad?) when pressed it has to be quantified.

(We're not going to get into the fact you didn't comment on it and went after Fate when it sure looked like Fate was prepping up a storm on me)

So, would I swing at the one I didn't think was RB? Hell yes. Not, for any small measure, because I sure as hell could be wrong about which is the RB. And, IF I was right hopefully that'd spur getting shot in the face leaving Fate to clean up the mess. If they're both scum its game over.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX: When I say "1938 to 1944", in a context of "SpyreX looks worst", I'm obviously talking there about posts made by SpyreX in 1938-1944 (1942 and the hammer that follows in 1944).

Sure, if thats all you said:

That whole sequence

from 1938 to 1944 is icky. SpyreX looks worst,

but I don't like that Fate goaded him into switching

. On the other hand, what does scumFate gain from going so hard after scumooba? Maybe he thought HH would go down anyway (which is what happened, but it didn't seem likely until the very end; if HH had voted ooba instead of throwing himself on his sword in an endgame maybe we lynch ooba and go some way toward clearing HH).

Pretty sure I didn't post over myself and that initial "this is icky" relates to both of us.

Huh? I was "trying to appease Fate"... but "went after Fate when it sure looked like Fate was prepping up a storm on me"? That doesn't compute.

You're right. It sure doesn't:

Fate: 1955, "I begged and BEGGGGGGGED for a goddman Ooba hammer yesterday, it never came. He was at L-2, HH was at L-1. SO WHAT THE FUCK WHY NOT?" - This is nonsense. The ooba hammer "never" came because we were waiting on a CTD catchup; a mere 38 minutes passed between the completion of that catchup and your "JUST FOR KICKS?" post. At the time, ooba was at L-2, but I had made clear that I was waiting on CTD and would put my vote back on that night - effectively, they were tied, with HH as the deciding vote. Further, while HH was at L-1, you apparently weren't aware of that when you made the post ("Holy shit HH IS at L-2.").

You aren't currently my top suspect; but the sudden switch from "oobascum oobascum oobascum HAMMAR OMG" to "hey, let's just lynch HH, teehee" smells. No amount of yelling is going to prevent me from looking carefully at your posts.

Well, that's makes some sense, at least. (Other than the "I knew VV/HH was town the whole damn time" part - that doesn't fit with your posts later in the day.)

I want to believe you're town (if you are), because it would make things so much easier. If we can hit the Roleblocker, or if they're out of blocks, or if they miss their block, we'd have three shots for three suspects. I'm just not there yet.

"So, would I swing at the one I didn't think was RB? Hell yes. Not, for any small measure, because I sure as hell could be wrong about which is the RB." <- "If I were town, I would think PokerFace is the better lynch, but with Fate going after mith, hell yeah I'll take a mislynch for the win! Now how can I justify that..."

Except for that whole I'll lynch PF part if it comes to it without hesitation sure.

[SpyreX]

Well butter my bread.

Unvote, Vote: Mith

[SpyreX]

Its been a while since I've seen a Hail Mary of this magnitude.

[SpyreX]

This is the only game I've played with him so, sure.

I meant this:

SpyreX wouldn't willingly go along with a mith lynch if we were scum together - it's a certain loss, with Fate's catch about the Roleblocker. PokerFace must be scum, even if you aren't sure whether it's me or SpyreX with him. Lynch PokerFace, shoot me if you need to, lynch SpyreX. Go.

[SpyreX]

Actually how does that work? PF scum means you shoot me and then somehow mith avoids lynch tomorrow?

AND YES ITS A WIN IN SPYREX-MITH SCUM LAND BUT NO.

[SpyreX]

Even when I want to strangle you we cool.

However, I'm gettin all tinfoil. But that means Mith/Iaun as the longshot.

[SpyreX]

Mmm doubleclick.

That still doesn't make sense though in the long run.

[SpyreX]

Yes I totally wont vote PF promise one million times.

I cant get over iaun tinfoil HELP ME FATE

[SpyreX]

THANK YOU

Here's where I'm coming from:

1.) I don't think they expected you to take a potentially game losing shot.
2.) I don't think they realized the RB rule.
3.) I don't buy the kill me / OHH WAIT as a mistake. It was planned.

So, today is a cluster.

3 is a lynch me over my partner move - with the hope that you shoot me JUST IN CASE.

But, the bus attempt makes it a Plum/Iam/PF endgame and HOW IN THE HELL does PF win that one?

I think I'm thinking too far out of the box

[SpyreX]

No he cant hold back. The only chance either side has is in threeway if you shoot wrong and they know it.

[SpyreX]

DONT YOU START DRINKING THE MAD JUICE LIKE I DID EARLIER.

Its the Hail Mary. The -only- shot with mith dead is you shooting ME tonight. So, he absolutely can't get your dander up BUT has the unfortunate issue of not making sense.

[SpyreX]

After today?

No way.

PF/Iaun/Plum has a better shot than Mith/Iaun/Plum

[SpyreX]

I'm looking at it from a Iaun and Plum -probably- wouldn''t get into a slapfight and go "ohh snap, why is MITH still around" versus PF being able to throw out on one (Iaun, probably) and hope for a badhammer.

I'm bed now though.

[SpyreX]

reading through last few posts clinches it for me. SpyreX just said things that make it looklike he wants me dead before mith. He thinks me dieing today would get mith lynched in endgame now. Him and mith trying to milk me for the mislynch win. this game in the bag

Also this thing you guys call sleep i am off work tomorrow sleep is nothing to me

What?

No, how does that work with my vote on mith good lord man. I'm saying, as part of the hail mary, YOU have a better chance at endgame than mith does. Not that it changes anything.

AND WHY DO I KEEP GETTING VAGUE TOWN FEELINGS FROM PF'S POSTS?

MITH/IAUN LONGSHOT?

I'm not sure where you're getting that from yo.

If anything this vote looks like a gamble most high, BUT:

You realize he has just ruled Iam/Plum, SpyreX/Iam, SpyreX/Plum as impossible scumteams, and considerably narrowed his options.

You're right about this I don't understand.

SpyreX has promised me he wouldn't vote you today and he better not just be holding on until a "haha jk QHammer time."

I DID?

Well, sure I wont move it to stop shenanigans BUT the only reference I made was absolute sarcasm to mith's "Ohhh hoo hoo SpyreX is only saying he'd vote PF" by saying yea, yea I would.

[SpyreX]

GOD I HATE QUOTES

PF has lost his marbles and it sure wasn't this insane all game.

The deal is, PF/Mith now confuses me because what's the goal? Have this one dissipate into a... ME lynch? Otherwise it makes no sense.

2MINS ON THE CLOCK ELABORATE. GO.

By going mith and SpyreX over and over and throwing his vote down with me in a bus that doesn't make sense going after ANY of those is a failure.

BUT, it does make sense in trying to get you to shoot me.

So, I dont understand closing his options AND voting.

[SpyreX]

GET BACK HERE AND HELP ME FIGURE THIS OUT

[SpyreX]

The hell flopping about? You mean the whole 'icky' set of posts not ACTUALLY being all the posts but just mine with a little fate nudge in there because he's goading master 9000?

Streetch armstrong you're a hero to kids everywhere.

[SpyreX]

I THOUGHT YOU WERE CRAZY WHEN YOU SAID TO TRY IT

BUT GG

[SpyreX]

I had SpyreX until he manipulated me like always.

Yeaa.... I didn't know you were vig.

Yea, I was a little mystified in that good way how plum was town and it was me/pf.

It was, pretty much, win win BUT I dont want to die.

[SpyreX]

And Hoopster while I commend your move there wasn't really any scum motivation coloring the fact I think you could have caused WAY more issues dropping that, saying you're prepped for jan, and then swinging that lynch a different way (maybe me, actually).

And Jan was still way overvalued as far as being a worry.

[SpyreX]

To be fair, ohh no meta, its not necessarily a function of me being scum. There's just some games I don't 'click' with and this was one of them.

I'm still amazed I lived through that mess.

[SpyreX]

Fate <3

You're still my bro, right?

[SpyreX]

I was more than a little scared you were gonna pull the SpyreX/Plum madness out AND then be vig and... ohh god

And mith you played an amazing game. Whatever was going on irl I've gotta give secret scum props to because I knew I had to take an uphill angle on you.

[SpyreX]

Ohh lets not forget your godfathery revenge, mr.

I had ONE night to, really, take a shot and I thought CTD was the vig for reasons I dont know.

[SpyreX]

Even then I thoguht you were town soo getting the setup to help you didn't change that.

AND YOU LYNCHED ME FOR THE WIN.

I AM NOT THAT RUDE MR

[SpyreX]

YET YOU HAVE KILLED ME AND I HAVE NEVER KILLED YOU

WHO IS THE VICTIM HERE

[SpyreX]

<3 LOOK WE HAVE BOTH MADE MISTAKES

You really were unlynchable, too. Just enough in just the right spots and we were on PR lockdown (it was fairly apparent you werent a PR) so it was tough to try and squeeze one out.

[SpyreX]

Also scum being obvscum and calling me scum without even reading my posts, but that's just me. *raises fist* SppyyyyreX. I swear, your meta protects you more than you know, despite your own dislike for meta.

To a degree I can give you that.

HOWEVER, I guarantee you that my initial push wasn't because I was scum. That behavior set is the kind of thing I always lynch for.

SO, if I'm protected from the fallout yea - however, a much better method is to NOT give me something like that to chew at.