Open 238: Trendy and Subversive Game Over

[Sawyer]

Vote: Millar

because I hear bad things

[Sawyer]

TeeJay, you were quick to judge. Why not vote at all?

[Sawyer]

Podiums defense seems awfully weak and seemed to try and force a contradiction that wasn't there.

Podium, TJ did say it was serious, but as he said in post 50, he was talking about a different extent of seriousness (which was even in the part you quoted, so you certainly didn't miss it)

Unvote Vote: Podium

[Sawyer]

Sorry for my absence. I should have a post coming by tomorrow.

[Sawyer]

I said I get a post in by today, so I got as far as i could (post 100), but I have to leave for work. I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow.

Teejay now says that he considers a non-RVS vote to be 'serious'. Yet in this post, he implies that nothing serious had occurred...

after

millar's non-RVS vote.

Do you not see a contradiction there?

The point I made was that he was using a different extent of seriousness. It's not hard to see how voting because you want that person lynched is much more serious than voting because things are no longer in the RVS. And I agree with TJ that millars vote wasn't to be taken serious (even though millar claims he was serious).

Nothing would've came of millars vote. I can't imagine anyone following it up for the same reasons, which is why I feel your defense is weak and unneeded. TJ gave his opinion on the matter in post 47, but you kept defending the point and kept pushing it. Millars vote clearly wasn't a good one and if you halted the discussion on it (like TJ suggested in post 47), nothing would've came of it and no one would've questioned your vote because the reasons were not unjust.

For the record, I feel these points are very wrong and not why I think your defense is uncalled for.

1.) You have immediately gotten defensive after one vote was cast your way. At the very least that your antsy.

2.) On top of that, you had a text book example of an OMGUS vote toward millar.

3.) You attempt to draw attention away from yourself by asking my opinion of millar's actions.

I don't think you got defensive when millar voted you like TJ does, just after when TJ questioned your vote. Your vote clearly wasn't OMGUS and when you asked TJ for his opinion, it's not hard to see that you were curious about what he thought of the matter. It's in this respect that I also think TJ is tunneling quite hard toward you.

When teejay maintained his incorrect observation after i tried to explain it to him, should i have continued trying to get him to understand it... or should i have dropped it?

You should've dropped it, IMO. In post 47, TJ gives his thoughts on the matter after you explained it and it should've ended there.

I didn't think much about the emotional aspect of your posts like ODDin did, but when compared to that other game, it has become a concern. Though I will give you that it is a whole game being compared to one timeframe, so I wait and see if it holds any weight.

Now onto others...

Why don't we just get a podium claim? I would almost be willing to hammer, depending on what he claims.

What is this? Page 4,millar and I made 1 or 2 relevant posts each and it's become a back and forth between TJ, ODDin and Podium and you're willing to hammer depending on the claim? +scumpoints for you.

And I'm glad Podium was smart enough not to claim after ODDin asked him due to certain circumstances in the game like the lack of activity from certain players and it being page 4 (again, are you guys serious?).

So for the moment...

Unvote

[Sawyer]

I didn't think much of Podiums rehash of the thread, as I didn't see where he was going with it. Maybe I just missed the point entirely.

...

Your response to millar DID seem excessive to me (which is why I considered TeeJay's point a valid one) , because you became very defensive and tried to shift the blame to me. I'm not denying that I was at fault, but it seems like someone who is trying to look for scum would have said something like "What is your opinion of the part that gonnano played in the situation that you voted me for?", whereas your post came off as "Nononono get your vote off me and put it on gonnano, he did it!"

I didn't get that out of his reaction. Looks like you're overreacted now. Sure he he made a point to say you almost killed the game, which looked to be the case to me, but by the end of the post he said millars vote was weak, incorrect and not very well thought out, which is all true. Millars reasoning was horrible and if I were Podium, I would've voted millar as well.

Tunneling... Now that you mentioned it, I'll be honest, I have. The quite hard part is indirectly stating that I was intentionally doing so (you may or may not mean that). This I disagree with, the only reason why I have only gone against him is because, simply put, no one else has done something that in my mind is worth noting.

Well, you (and others) did ask him to claim, so there's a fair chance that it was intentional. I see what you mean when you say he's the only one that's done anything worth noting, but from the look of it, you haven't questioned anyone else (and there has been questionable actions from others).

In my opinion, Day one lynches where it isn't mylo should be used as follows:

-Lynch an unhelpful player-Why have a player that isn't contributing squat stay in the game? If they aren't contributing now, what makes you think they will contribute when it really counts on lylo? If you keep them till lylo, then you will be questioning them with little response, making them look scummy (whether they are or aren't scum).

Therefore

unvote, vote millar

So you're voting to lynch millar because you believe Day One lynches should always be used to eliminate players that aren't being helpful, correct?

[Sawyer]

@ODDin, I'm not gonna just believe that you never intended on lynching him. You asked him to claim and expressed your intent to go through with the lynch in a single post, then later asked for him to claim again. TJ said he was ready to hammer and he could have without you criticizing him for it (he started the Podium questioning), because you stated you were ok with it. I'm not letting anyone else off the hook for asking for a claim, but it seems you were pushing for it more than anyone. I'm not saying it's certain you're scum, due to reason I don't want to risk explaining since it's related to an ongoing game, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were.

I was willing to hammer. I had gotten done reading a heavily heated debate between Oddin and you and was caught up in the excitement of it all. After a few hours of removing myself, I found that it wasn't an intelligent idea because of the fact that you were the only one that had been really evaluated, and because it was only page 4. It was a pathetic action, of which I have no argument other than getting caught up in the action.

And that is hardly a good, if believable, reason to hammer. I'm not buying that you just got "caught up in the excitement".

Pertaining to getting you to claim, again, this was said in the context of a heated debate, ruled by emotion rather than logic. I had no intent on getting anything for Scum, I was fully intent in lynching on Sunday when I had posted.

Again, that's a bad excuse, but you say you were ruled by emotion rather than logic? The same the Podium's been being called scummy for? That seems awfully hypocritical of you. That's another reason why you shouldn't be let off the hook.

Though I completely agree with your post 137.

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something I needed to at least think about.

Uhhh...

ODDin,

I very much would like to hammer

, but before I do, I would like to wait for Sawyer and (I forget his name) to post
...
Podium, please claim.

Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Right now, it's hard for me to say who's more suspicious, ODDin or Teejay. ODDin could be town that planned his tunnel on Podium, but it's hard to say. So with ODDin, it's all or nothing, but TJ has more against him. My suspicion of Podium was a lot at the time I voted him, but not compared to now. And I'll have to wait for Mallow to post a little more to get a clear read.

[Sawyer]

It's not. I did want to lynch him, but I needed to think about it before I did. Hence the second post saying that I would like to wait. Hence there not being a contradiction.

Maybe, but I see no indication that the reason you needed to "think about it" due to our opinions. I doubt our opinions would change your mind about Podium. If you said you would "very much like to hammer", that says to me that you are pretty sure about this lynch and your opinion is rather strong about it.

...and I like even less that

he has done nothing about his scum reads

at this point, when we should be getting into the real meat of the game.

What do you mean by the bolded?

[Sawyer]

I didn't need to think about it due to others opinions. I wanted to wait, and thought that in the mean time, it would be great to hear from the rest of the players.

I'm pretty sure that proves it was a contradiction. So you just wanted to hear other opinions, but that's not related to you needing to think about it. So if we look back at the quotes and act like that wasn't there...

ODDin,

I very much would like to hammer

...
Podium, please claim.

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something

I needed to at least think about.

In that case, it's a clear contradiction, because you never mentioned (as far as I can see) that you needed to think about it, just that you wanted to hammer. Meaning you wanted to lynch him.

[Sawyer]

By "he has done nothing about his scum reads" I meant that he made accusations but no votes, which I don't like.

I already said I'm unsure about who I find more scummy, TJ or ODDin, but at this very moment, I'm starting to lean TJ. I was actually going to vote hi mat the end of this post, but there hasn't been a vote count for a couple pages I just want to be careful.

MOD: Vote Count Please

Your not listening. I wanted to hear from others input, not to decide the vote, but to see what they had to say. And yes, you are right, I didn't post anything about wanting to think about it.

But I didn't think I would have to.

That's the problem. You said "I would very much like to hammer" and when you say that and nothing else that indicates you want to think it over, that says you want to lynch him.

[Sawyer]

Well make up your mind because just saying that isn't helping the town.

First of all, I said I was going to vote TJ, had there been a votecount

Vote: TJ

Secondly, when you made that post you were in the same position as me. You didn't (and still don't) have a vote down, and earlier you said, "I do honestly believe that [ODDin, Podium, or TJ] are mafia. I just don't know who." That's even more indecisive than what I said. So basically, you accidentally admitted that you're not helping town.

[Sawyer]

215... wow, I agree with every word of that. And I was onto ODDin earlier, but the way you just summed up the entire case against him was actually enough for me to consider voting ODDin instead.

^Look at my meta.

When people use their own meta to explain scummy behavior, it's like they act scummy on purpose so people just say "oh, well that's how he always plays". And that doesn't fly with me. I don't care much for metas, but when people have a particularly anti-town/scummy meta, I don't give two shits about it because you're not helping town either way.

[Sawyer]

Mallow, you think TJ is most likely to be scum? If so, what are your reasons?

[Sawyer]

I'd appreciate if TJ held off claiming until I get answers from mallow.

[Sawyer]

Oh wow I didn't even realize that. Yeah, we should probably get a claim then.

[Sawyer]

Alrighty. Here's my IR (in retrospect) post regarding what I've gathered up until now.

Gonnano

Gonnano on Podium

He's the first to ask Podium to claim and expresses willingness to hammer given what he claims. It's page 4 and he's willing to make a lynch when millar and myself hadn't posted much. He later says he'd prefer to wait until we did post, but only after ODDin suggested it first.

He says:

Your response to millar DID seem excessive to me (which is why I considered TeeJay's point a valid one) , because you became very defensive and tried to shift the blame to me. I'm not denying that I was at fault, but it seems like someone who is trying to look for scum would have said something like "What is your opinion of the part that gonnano played in the situation that you voted me for?", whereas your post came off as "Nononono get your vote off me and put it on gonnano, he did it!"

Podium asked millar if his vote was serious and summed it up as "weak, incorrect, and generally not well thought out" for his reasons for voting. I feel that what he said was accurate, so do you disagree that millars vote was that of how Podium described it? If so, why?

Tunneling Me

It looks like Gonnano has been tunneling me since the second half of day one, but with weak reason.

By "he has done nothing about his scum reads" I meant that he made accusations but no votes, which I don't like.

He says that about me, which is an accurate observation, but says nothing about mallow when he had been doing the same thing. He claims it's because he can't get a read on mallow, but that doesn't mean he should just ignore it like he does.

I feel I caught TJ in a contradiction regarding his willingness to hammer, but Gonnano continually tries to say it's not no matter which way I present it to him. Podium explained exactly what I was saying in post 276 and Gonnano didn't reply with how I was wrong, but still implies that I am at the start of Day 2. So, Gonnano, what are the flaws in our explanation of how TJ contradicted himself?

My "weak case" is the strongest read that I have.

That's too bad, since Podium has summed up exactly why your case is weak and you still haven't countered it. You better get some stronger reads. We have plenty to work with.

Mallow

Inconsistent Cautiousness

In this post he unvotes and FoS because he doesn't want to waste a lynch with a RVS vote. The problem with this thinking is that not only were we just coming out of the RVS at the top of the second page, but he was the only one voting ODDin. There was no reason to even think ODDin might be lynched, let alone so soon. Possibly scum trying to look like he's cautious with his vote.

For someone who seems cautious with his vote, he was sure quick to put Podium at L-1 on page 4. Both levels of cautiousness don't seem to match.

But in this post, Mallow puts aside all the discussion that has gone on and votes millar for lurking and being unhelpful (which is a little hypocritical of him).

Also, as TJ noted in 137, mallow's made an excessive amount of votes and unvotes yesterday.

Other Unusual Behavior

Here he addresses ODDins curiosity about why TJ didn't vote with his first post. Mallow suggests ODDin might be trying to divert attention (presumably from himself), but there is nothing to divert attention from. It also seems he's specifically trying to go after ODDin because just before this post, I asked TJ the same thing and mallow never said anything about it.

This entire post shows some major hypocrisy. And later on Podium correctly sums up his behavior over the course of the game as being "excessive (and illogical) AtE, hypocrisy, active lurking, putting me at L-1 without hardly commenting (what little he did comment was someone elses observation)"

When TJ was at L-1, mallow asked for TJ's claim "now", which a little seems unusual considering he wasn't even voting for TJ.

Podium

Most of the suspicion of Podium comes from his reaction to millars vote against him and his reactions to the pressure afterward. I've already said a few times that I think his initial reaction is justified. In post 47, TJ said how he felt and told Podium "Keep on going if you'd like, but you are digging your grave rather quickly." And that's exactly what Podium did. And it's from that reason why I think the way he blew up over peoples reactions seems unnecessary and why I don't think the level of his defensiveness is particularly natural.

Looking back, I'm getting more of a stubborn town read from Podium rather than a scum read. He held off claiming when asked to multiple times and I can almost guarantee scum was one the ones who asked him to claim. If he were scum, he probably would just claimed a PR right then and there rather than waiting and risking being lynched without gaining anything from it.

TeeJay

His Take on Podiums Reactions

TJ was tunneling Podium most of Day 1 and here's the post that started it:

Wow, defensive rather quickly. Considering that this is only the second page, I find it disturbing that you were so quick to become defensive.

While I agree with certain overreactions Podium had after this post, I very much disagree with this one. It's in response to Podium counter voting millar for saying he wanted to policy lynch Podium for a horrible reason. If I were Podium I would've done the same thing, but it seems as though TJ is making something out of nothing. Not to mention we were just coming out of the RVS, so with what little information we had, it was a reasonable vote against millar.

TJ sums up why Podium is scummy in his reactions:

1.) You have immediately gotten defensive after one vote was cast your way. At the very least that your antsy.
2.) On top of that, you had a text book example of an OMGUS vote toward millar.
3.) You attempt to draw attention away from yourself by asking my opinion of millar's actions.

I feel all of these are incorrect.

1) Millar made a "serious" vote for a horrible reason and Podium explain why it was.
2) It wasn't OMGUS because millars vote was one of the worst reasoned votes of the game (only second to Taz's votes) and a counter vote to that is perfectly understandable.
3) Why would he not? Millars vote was clearly poor and I'd be curious as to why you didn't seem to think so as well.

The Hammer and the Claim

Something I pointed out earlier:

I was willing to hammer. I had gotten done reading a heavily heated debate between Oddin and you and was caught up in the excitement of it all. After a few hours of removing myself, I found that it wasn't an intelligent idea because of the fact that you were the only one that had been really evaluated, and because it was only page 4. It was a pathetic action, of which I have no argument other than getting caught up in the action.

And that is hardly a good, if believable, reason to hammer. I'm not buying that you just got "caught up in the excitement".

Pertaining to getting you to claim, again, this was said in the context of a heated debate, ruled by emotion rather than logic. I had no intent on getting anything for Scum, I was fully intent in lynching on Sunday when I had posted.

Again, that's a bad excuse, but you say you were ruled by emotion rather than logic? The same the Podium's been being called scummy for? That seems awfully hypocritical of you. That's another reason why you shouldn't be let off the hook.

The Contradiction

As I argued with TJ about the issue, we gained more information on it to insure it was, in fact, a contradiction. Podium summed up all the information I gathered in that interaction and came to the same undeniable conclusion as I:

TJ said that he wanted to hammer, but wanted to let 2 people post before he did so. Later, he said he didn't hammer because he needed to think about it more.

In his initial comment, he didn't say he needed time to think before he hammered... he only said that he wanted to wait for others to post. This is why it sounded like a contradiction, and why i took issue with you saying it 'absolutely was not' a contradiction.

Now...

Later TJ clarifies that he wasn't waiting for other players opinions to influence his decision when he said 'i want them to post first (before i hammer)'. So if he wasn't going to use their input to influence his decision, his initial comment shows NO evidence of someone who is still unsure about his actions... in fact, it shows the opposite. It becomes more solid of a contradiction at this point.

TJ's only counter would be 'i wasn't sure and still needed to think about it, i just didnt say so'... but there's no way for us to know the truth... and based on the context it doesnt seem very plausible.

[Sawyer]

I felt like millar's vote was still an RVS-type vote (i.e. weak), which didn't seem especially scummy to me -- maybe counterproductive, but not necessarily scummy.

Though millar provided a weak reason, he said it was a serious vote. I'd imagine Podium asked to be sure before he reacted to it.

What should I do with it? I haven't forgotten about it, and I definitely haven't ruled out mallow's slot as a mafia role. However, it's just not enough for me to lynch a player that I have personally known (as town) to quickhammer a D1 lynch (also town) while at the same time professing the lynchee's innocence.

You could've commented on it like you did me to check his reaction. Things like that could always help when looking back through the game.

TeeJay wanted to hammer, but decided to wait. The reason for this was that he wanted to think about it some more, but

he didn't specifically say that this was the reason because he didn't think that he would have to

.

To quote Podium "So if he wasn't going to use their input to influence his decision, his initial comment shows NO evidence of someone who is still unsure about his actions..." TJ then claimed the bolded. See any problem with it? Initially TJ seemed sure of his decision and it wasn't until after the fact that he tried to cover his tracks by saying "he didn't think he would have to". That's what makes it a contradiction. He never said anything about wanting to think about it until much later and because that's the case, there's nothing to keep us from thinking he contradicted himself in the first place.

[Sawyer]

Almost everything in mafia is based on theory. My theory is supported with what you didn't say at the time.

[Sawyer]

TeeJay wanted to hammer, but decided to wait. The reason for this was that he wanted to think about it some more, but

he didn't specifically say that this was the reason because he didn't think that he would have to

.

To quote Podium "So if he wasn't going to use their input to influence his decision, his initial comment shows NO evidence of someone who is still unsure about his actions..." TJ then claimed the bolded. See any problem with it? Initially TJ seemed sure of his decision and it wasn't until after the fact that he tried to cover his tracks by saying "he didn't think he would have to". That's what makes it a contradiction. He never said anything about wanting to think about it until much later and because that's the case, there's nothing to keep us from thinking he contradicted himself in the first place.

Gonnano, you never respond to why this doesn't prove anything. But let me add the contradiction that is assumed because TJ never made mention of wanting to think about it. Please explain why the above doesn't prove that what is below is a contradiction.

"

ODDin, I very much would like to hammer

,"

(as TJ already admitted, what follows this portion of the quote is unrelated to his decision to hammer)

"

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something I needed to at least think about.

"

[Sawyer]

/Responding to prod. Sorry for not posting, I had other things I've been needing to attend to. I'll try to make a post within the next day.

[Sawyer]

1: I don't mind putting myself under scrutiny here, so since most of you were harbouring suspicions about my playerslot, what case, in your own words, would you make against me? The hope is that I can settle some doubts and get myself into the game at the same time, so I figure this is a good way for me to be productive.

2: Were you surprised by who was NKed during the night? Do you think Taz/Equinox would have been a major target for you during this day phase had they lived, given the nature of the hammer D1?

3: Looking at the person you're most suspicious of, who makes sense as a scum partner for them?

1. I've already made a case on mallow not long after Day 2 started.
2. Yeah. I figured scum would keep him around seeing how scummy he was acting. I was getting the impression he was newb town though, so even though he'd deserve to be punished for how he acted, I likely wouldn't have pursued a lynch against him. But that's just me.
3. Right now, I'm most suspicious of TJ and I'm thinking Gonnano would make sense for a scum partner for him.

Nope, you finally convinced me. Sorry for all of your time that I wasted.

Great, so why did this argument continue for another page? (hence why my post is so short)

As for the massclaim, I'd say go for it. It's LYLO, so we can't afford to make another mislynch. Sure the Nurse will no doubt be dead come night time, but we have to narrow down our chances as much as we can right now.

[Sawyer]

VT.

Ok, so we have two scummy players claiming to be nurse and any fake counter claim could be enough to kill the real one and end the game knowing their won't be any consequences for another day. So in this situation I'd say the best thing to do is vote for who you think is the scummier of the two, since none of them seemed like town in the first place.

I think Teejay beats out Orochi in that respect.

Vote: Teejay

(L-1)

[Sawyer]

Unvote

Whoa. Totally forgot scum could quick hammer if it's not TJ. I stand by that vote though, so get in your last thoughts.

[Sawyer]

I've been pretty convinced of Teejay's scumminess since his contradiction, but those are very good points actually. So I'll wait and see how things go before I decide.

[Sawyer]

I was waiting to hear from Orochi to maybe help me decide who to vote for, but not only will that not be happening, but we won't know who he supposedly protected.

[Sawyer]

Alright. I was feeling the same as Jen just about the entire time up until Gonnano made his 3 points regarding the claim and counterclaim. Since Orochi wasn't able to respond, nothing can be gained from it aside from speculation and top that off with Jens case on TJ, I'm going with my original vote.

Vote: TeeJay

[Sawyer]

Good thing we have a top notch scum hunter like Gonnano to see that I was bussing Teejay in these latest moments, rather than being suspicious of him almost the entire game while pushing for his lynch. Obviously I wasn't doing that though. Nice catch, Gonnano.

[Sawyer]

Sawyer, the point of my comment was not that you were bussing TJ, but that you might have had to bus orochi. Luckily, orochi got replaced and you throw all my points out the window and hop right back on the TJ wagon.

Oh, I misinterpreted what you said. Well, I stand by what I said about your points. There's nothing to gain from them past speculation now that Orochi can't respond to them. Those points made me uncertain of my suspicion of TJ over Orochi, hence why I decided to wait and since I can't get those responses, it helped my vote land where it is now.

I am very suspicious of how sawyer jumped off and back on teejay just now... that is out of character based on my experience with him in this game. it twirks my ears even more that he cites jenn's case on TJ as a reason he is switching back to TJ... im not sure that jens case should mean that much, since she would say anything to avoid lynch.

Read above for my reasons on my I jumped off TJ. Jens case just helped me solidify my suspicion after I found out I wouldn't be getting the responses I was hoping for.

[Sawyer]

What has he done that's townie? (by the way, if TJ shows up I would like for him to answer this question as well)

Why is this your concern? Shouldn't you be looking for scum tells, rather than town tells? But I'm fine with the question either way.

TeeJay, why did you not answer the above question when you posted?

And will TeeJay and Jen please stop the back and forth "You're lying, I'm the real Nurse", "No, you're lying, I'm the real Nurse". It doesn't help at all, since that's not gonna convince anyone.

[Sawyer]

TJ has been pushing for gonnano as scum... which doesn't even make sense... because if gonnano is scum, and TJ isnt, the game would be over. I would think if he was really town, he would realize this... especially when i have explained it previously.

It wasn't hard to understand what you were saying, so if we lynched right, I'll assume he was just trying to bus Gonnano.

[Sawyer]

Podium is cleared, so

Vote: Gonnano

[Sawyer]

I didn't realize she was at L-1 until after you hammered. We hadn't had a votecount for a while and I didn't catch when TJ voted her.

[Sawyer]

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/5aDqbHfgKyz

[Sawyer]

I agree with everyone in the Dead QT: I was great

I was sure if TJ was lynched, there'd be no connection left between us, but Gonnano took on that role entirely.

Jenni, why lie about who you protected? I don't see how saying you protected me helped you incriminate Teejay.

[Sawyer]

@Jenni, nevermind, got Night 1 and Night 2 actions mixed up.