Open 233: Ninja Mafia Boogaloo - Over!

[Enigma]

VOTE: Agar

I'll make some very silly reason up now ...
You had the shortest name hence easiest to type up.

[Enigma]

Uggg I hate RQS.

1. Pepsi or Coke? Coke
2. Favorite Setup? Something nice and straight forward where you can depend on your gut and instincts.
3. How would you describe your meta? I check the site quite often and read all posts carefully even though I don't always post. I try to only post when I have something constructive to contribute.
4. Win/loss record? N/A
5. Maximum number of games you'll play in at one time? Most likely about 2-3

[Enigma]

Those who are are (mostly) reading town to me.

Those who aren't are obviously skimming scum.

All my games are in my wiki.

It's far too early to tell who's who. Give me a while.

I would prefer a logic quite opposite to what you put out.

Scum play is often more careful and thought out and would spend considerably more effort analyzing their post and other people's posts.They just have more to lose.

[Enigma]

Wait I can't read nvm.

[Enigma]

Regarding SV: There is nothing wrong with being an arrogant bastard. Whatever get's the job done right?

@Stranger
With so many VT's in this game and a very unpredictable set up it is kind of obsolete claiming. He could fake claim VT and everyone would be pretty much just as clueless as before at this stage. Given you gave some thought into this setup (I sure hope you did) I'm sure you would have considered this possibility. Isn't it kind of ironic when you are telling him to claim when you pretty much know exactly what he is going to claim?

@SV
I said it before: I doubt scum skim, they are more careful than everyone else imo. Pretty pathetic reasoning there.

Why exactly do you think scum skim?

[Enigma]

That's actually a valid tell AGar, suprised I haven't heard of it yet.

@Paltry
I'm pretty sure I withhold my vote in many games regardless of my alignment. Unless I'm initiating a new lead I see no point in adding to a bandwagon where unless myself/town are prepared to hammer. Especially in a game with 18 people where 10 are needed to vote, I'm not putting down a vote unless I'm convinced it is beneficial. A few votes on selected people can easily be shrugged off in a game this big, I would much prefer to see how people respond to thoughts and discussion with such a long time before the deadline.

[Enigma]

Ok I'm posting this as I read from the beginning so it may repeat a few things already said.

@SV

I have failed.

In looking back at a couple of games, I had SB confused with a different player (who shall remain nameless).

I have now successfully painted myself into a very bad corner, and I have no idea what to do about it.

More later.

When rereading this thread, I realized I had heard this saying before and having a look back, I realized you used it when you self hammered in Open 226 (Active game). I'm interested in what context you are using this term in for this game.

and shattered, please explain to me why exactly you think skimming is scummy?

I'll do my best. What grade level reading comprehension would you like? (I only ask because I've already explained this here and here. But if you really, really, honestly need me to make it a little more understable for you, I'll try. Do you have a language preference? Can I get you some more coffee while I'm up? Are you comfortable? Can I get you anything else?)

("I have seen it before" doesnt cut it)...

Why not? I've seen the sun rise in the morning; do I need to get a degree in astrophysics to prove to you that it does, and will likely continue to do so?

you have never seen a bored vanilla townie skim or any town for that matter?

I have. I lynch them, too. If you aren't going to actively participate in a game, don't sign up for that game. Simple, really.

What about someone who lacks the time?

What about them? Their personal circumstances are not my problem. Next, should I try to solve homelessness or end world hunger? Just tell me, apparently I'm only here to solve your problems.

Have you ever been scum?

Yes. I'd refer you to my wiki page, but apparently you cannot be bothered to do any original research; rather, you seem content to allow other players to do all your homework for you. That being said, I've been scum in this game, this one, and this one. (The careful reader will be able to find my main account's identity in one of those games. I've been scum many more times there than here.)

Can you please provide examples of scum skimming. (completed games please)

See the above quote about doing your homework. I leave the solution as an exercise for the reader.

I'm quite a fan of sarcasm. Really! But now all you seem to me is just over emphasizing you agreeing to me calling you an arrogant bastard. I'm curious as to whether you are just following this persona as an excuse to avoid answering uncomfortable questions.

@Zanjet

The irony is also killing me... SV's wagon falling apart because it is "too fast," and three votes pile on me in a couple hours. This is a bullshit wagon, by the way. I voted once outside of random, for someone that I, and others, feel is likely scum, and all the sudden "TOMGZ BANDWAGONING SCUMMZ!!!!1!!!!one!!1!1!12!1eleven!111

You don't attack the reasoning of the vote behind you, and your defense is "This is a bullshit wagon". What's wrong with having a wagon on you? It seems to frustrate you quite a bit. This speaks out to me as quite scummy: Scum tend to get worried when they feel they are negative attention is being directed towards them and over exaggerate even a few votes on them.

@SC

No, because it is not quite true that I know at all. That would require everybody aligned with the town to be VTs. I think you're also making the false assumption that F11, and therefore this game, has no fakeclaiming potential for scum.

A serious fake claim from scum as a town power role this early in the game is as likely as my pet gold fish drowning in his fish tank. In F11 with 9 players, as the game progresses a few days due to the limited player base, someone fake claiming as VT is less likely to get away as compared to this game where it will be nigh impossible to deduce if a VT claim is fake for at least several months.

This is fallacious. That everybody disagrees with you does not mean that you are wrong. If it means anything more than that, it means you have to build your case to get people to rally for your cause.

FoS: Beefster

While I understand what you mean regarding beef and his logic is indeed quite poor, why exactly is this deserving of a finger in his direction?
So let me get this right: You, who hasnt built a case about why beef is suspicious, is suspicious of beef for not building a case about why he thinks SV is scummy because SV didnt build a case for his logic as to scum tells.

"Gut read" and "weird unvote thingy", eh? Look like excuses to me.

Unvote: silverbullet999
Vote: Zajnet

Ouch! Irony.

@KageLord

1. The person I have the most mixed feelings about is SV. At first, I thought the whole thing about him unvoting when he didn't vote in the first place was stupid. But, I was a bit rattled when he claimed he did it on purpose as a trap. I guess I could see someone trying it, but it seems like a pretty stupid trap to me.

It could easily be taken the wrong way and used by scum (as it very well may have been in this game)

. I also don't agree with his scum skimming "tell" thing in general. I think that scum read the thread just as carefully as experienced town players do. It would be so easy for them to slip up and misrep or something like that if they didn't pay attention.

However, there still seems to be scumhunting effort from him, even if I don't agree with all of his methods.

I would say I'm leaning town on him.

So firstly you are saying scum can do things townies can do to give off a townie impression. Then you say that scumhunting is a good indication of someone being town. This just seems to me as a poor effort to try and get some content in but nothing outrageous as to drag unwanted attention to yourself. I look forward to reading some more of your scum hunting posts to see if I can get a better read on you but then you (and tumernasnce) are probably going to get modkilled anyway for inactivity.

@ConfidAnon

Damn it Sotty . . . after reading the thread, I wanted to make a post such as yours.

But you already made it.

I agree with Sotty7.

That is pretty pathetic. I don't even know what you are agreeing with. Me being suss or scum skimming? You've done nothing in this game but bandwagon.

@Silver

Isoing now...

Wow... not much of a contributor atm. To push him to actually scumhunt and what not...

VOTE: Enigma

Scum hunting is something that will eventually happen when I have enough time (maybe like now?). Pretty convenient how you come back and jump on the easiest bandwagon with one of the most pathetic excuses. Suppose you will draw much less attention jumping on my wagon now than later yer?

@Troll

I'd be willing to lynch any of the following if it came down to it right now without feeling the least bit bad: Chronopie, Enigma, silverbullet999, tumescence, Zajnet. That list could be longer without much trouble at all but it's already more players than there are scum.

Hang on... Is this a lynch list or is it just the afk list? Your not even calling it a policy lynch. (PS: You are missing a few names which need to be on that list if that is the case. Why?)
So all those who contribute are townies and those who are legitimately busy are scum? Awesome logic there mate.

@All
I even ISOd myself.
Inactivity: Guilty
Not scum hunting? Inactivity = Busy = No time to read thread and post huge walls of text = not voting.
Theory talk? No time = Much easier to post a few lines of quick

useful

opinions and encourage discussion on a few selected posts.
I'm having quite a chuckle at all those who have just jumped on this new wagon (me!) and are so confident I am one of the scummiest players given I haven't posted much this game due to RL constraints. Enjoy! Knock yourselves out!

-----
Note to self: If I am mafia, act stupid and clueless and just pipe in with occasional I agree posts to pro townies. eg:confidanon, silverbullet and gammagooey. It will be sure to throw all those experienced scum hunters off their tracks because they don't even notice you are existent. Or maybe all these scum hunters are just purposely overlooking this critical issue, how convenient.

Unvote

VOTE: Zorblag

[Enigma]

Massive fail. I thought I finished the thread when I reached page 8. Stupid tabs all look the same.
Pardon inconsistencies in previous post because I thought I had reached the end of the thread.
@CC

strike one: Lot's of talking about theory, absolutely no talking about anyone at least potentially scummy, I didn't notice that before, awfully scummy.

strike two: hesitance to vote. One of my favorite personal tells, usually works like gold for some reason.

1. I'm sure if you ISO'd me then you would agree with me calling "lot's" a major exaggeration.
2. Then I suppose I'm scum in all my games if your tell is so golden. Go weigh the possibility of that. Actually never mind, I did it for you. How's ~0.26% sound. (Bit of guessing now and there).

Also:
Can you tell me where exactly you have voted prior to voting me? NVM I'll answer for you again.
YOU CAN'T. You only have one RVS vote prior to your vote on me. Best irony I have seem all game. Can you take your vote off me now and vote yourself? Thanks.

FOS: CC

@Troll

@Paltry Excuse, the sum of tumescence's actions in the game thus far has been to promise content and not deliver. That's scummy

or maybe because they are lazy or just busy.

There's nothing redeeming to counter it with. That would make for a good vote in any ruleset.

Fixed.
This game will run for several days with several lynchs to come. Let's lynch all the afks right now when they have 1-2 posts most likely with very little content or Let's scum hunt those who are actually posting and look for flaws in their argument. Hrrrmm which would be the most likely option to encourage a mislynch?

@Confidion

What is there that I can do without getting voted? (Honest question.)

What's wrong with being voted? Voted != Lynched.

@Scotty
Nothing really to say here but I agree with alot of what you are saying.

[Enigma]

Keep in mind that I hadn't read the last page when I did my wall.

@Silver.
I'll let Scotty answer that.

I'm all for putting pressure on people, but announcing that the vote is nothing more than a pressure vote, not only takes away the pressure by cluing in the player on your intentions. But is also is a way of absolving you of any real responsibility for this wagon. You seemed to have abandoned your top suspect to pressure a lurker who hasn't posted since the wagon formed. I fail to see how this is helpful in rooting out scum.

PS: That's not angry.

You started a

case

and wagon against SV? Wait you mean this one?

@Confidion
You avoided my question and said something so unwitty. Niceeeee. Answer the question.
Zorblag=Troll

[Enigma]

@SC

No, because it is not quite true that I know at all. That would require everybody aligned with the town to be VTs. I think you're also making the false assumption that F11, and therefore this game, has no fakeclaiming potential for scum.

A serious fake claim from scum as a town power role this early in the game is as likely as my pet gold fish drowning in his fish tank. In F11 with 9 players, as the game progresses a few days due to the limited player base, someone fake claiming as VT is less likely to get away as compared to this game where it will be nigh impossible to deduce if a VT claim is fake for at least several months.

You're

STILL

failing to take into account a truthful PR claim. Thanks for announcing to everybody that there is both a ninja and a roleblocker and you're failing to pick up power reads on anybody.

Major HoS

.

Pardon my ignorance but I've only played a few games of the F11 setup.

Assume

I was the cop in this game.
Why would I claim cop?
There is a 50% chance I may due unprotected due to a medic in this game.
There is a 50% chance I will be redundant this game due to a role blocker.
There is a 50% chance a Watcher will catch one scum on me.

Best bit, the effectiveness of this role is cumulative on a number of probabilities. Then you need to weigh in the chance that town believes you as a majority and also each particular power role player actually trusts you.

Can someone explain the benefits of a PR claiming on day one? Why would you want to pressure a town power role to claim unless

absolutely

scummy and guaranteed L-0.
Because if I had a power role I would rather take my chances with the angry mob.

Also good luck with your role reads. I'm sure it does fantastic with over a dozen eager VT's.

[Enigma]

PS: Lovely exaggeration with the "major" HOS.
Why don't you vote me out if I'm that scummy and save me the effort? Thanks.

[Enigma]

This is an improvised version of F11 Kage.

Upon rereading, the intention of my post may not have come across clearly.
I tend to note points of interests and assume that people understand what logic I'm trying to put forth without actually saying it myself.

Stranger is suggesting that having a town PR claim is acceptable -> pressuring a PR claim is reasonable.
I believe that it is foolish for townies to force PR's to claim unless everyone is convinced they are scum and anyone forcing so is scummy. That's just based on my very limited experience on the F11 setup. It is very likely that the PR becomes redundant once he claims ... and that is if the town believes him anyways, remembering the town had deemed said person scummy enough to pressure a role claim, how convinced do you think the town would be.

Also to clarify the investigative PR checking claims and actions, it puts them at a disadvantage also because they need to expose themselves and they don't even know if there is a doc, spy, blocker etc.

He then calls me out as scum (not maybe) but doesn't vote for me. If I'm scum as such why not just lynch me? I already have the majority of votes atm.
Looks great to me.

AGar, exactly how is that post tickling your fancy?

One last point which so many people seem to want to neglect.
Appearing suss != Mafia
Scumhunting != Townie
Sometimes, but never always.

[Enigma]

@Gamma

I Still don't see any actual scumhunting from Enigma or even why he voted for Troll over all the other people in his megapost, which is pretty much pointing out every suspicious looking thing he can find without any coherent case or push on a scummy individual- It be bad stuffs mon.

I'm not going to spell out every thought in my head for you. I intentionally post out points of interest or minor points I believe people have overlooked and it is your job to make your own conclusions and discuss them. Don't be so lazy and ignorant.

Also for you gammagooey, one thing I tend to do and it works wonders.
When I myself haven't contributed alot in terms of content and scum hunting I don't go around accusing other people of not scumhunting/contributing. Maybe you should try it. Seriously.
PS: Please teach me how to scumhunt. Kthx.

@Scotty
Trying not to go into setup guessing as it will be fruitless and impossible to confirm. I'm just using possibilities to try and get my argument across about why I think it is a bad idea that pressuring someone into claiming is a bad idea unless absolutely necessary.

@Agar
I do a engineering/science (physics) double major. *cry*

To clarify my vote on Zorblag:
The weaker players in this game are the only ones receiving negative attention in this game. It is very very likely that stronger players make up a partition of the scum team.
They have free reign on this game. They can choose exactly what they say, when they want to say it without accusation/pressure from everyone else. Meanwhile they get time to formulate devious plans to wreck havoc in the town.
1. Zorblag is encouraging people to shift all their attention to the weaker players, also see his first post this game about how newbies should play. I don't like it.

This game is guaranteed to last several phases and have many lynches to come due to the number of players and one mafia faction.
2. Lynching an inactive results in the town learning less because less connections have been made between said player. Also a mislynch is much more likely because some people genuinely play like that for whatever reasons.

ISO him. Has done nothing to vote constructively in this game (one vote aint going to encourage people to post). Trying again to encourage a policy lynch on afks after his first one on Kage doesn't get support. Pretty persistent ... it's only day one comeon. I'm the ONLY person who he calls suss (dead line is approaching) yet still goes off on the afk fantasy.
3. Failure to commit productively with votes. Easy way to avoid negative attention when a mislynch occurs. (It probably will anyways)

Note to self: If I am mafia, act stupid and clueless and just pipe in with occasional I agree posts to pro townies. eg:confidanon, silverbullet and gammagooey. It will be sure to throw all those experienced scum hunters off their tracks because they don't even notice you are existent. Or maybe all these scum hunters are just purposely overlooking this critical issue, how convenient.

4. WIFOM when one of the lurkers turn out to be scum.

I'd be willing to lynch any of the following if it came down to it right now without feeling the least bit bad: Chronopie, Enigma, silverbullet999, tumescence, Zajnet. That list could be longer without much trouble at all but it's already more players than there are scum.

5. Hasn't even discussed Chronopie in his ISO. He has purpously left out more notorious afks also eg Confidion, Gammagooey. Trying to throw of pairing in the future?

Maybe everyone else should make an effort themselves to look through his posts and my posts directed at him to see where I was heading with my vote and have saved me to trouble to spell it all out to you all.
Nvm now it saves everyone from having to do what I just did probably which might just have made them look suss.

[Enigma]

EWOBP: Come off as a bit aggressive towards Gamma. Sorry.
The point however stands.

[Enigma]

Only if you provide reasonable doubt as to why you are.

[Enigma]

am I not allowed to hop a wagon in a large game to add pressure to said suspect?

Only if you provide reasonable doubt as to why you are.

I fail to make sense out of the second post. Explain.

You need to provide a solid reason/opinion as to why you think said player is scummy before voting them.

Anyways I would like to see to a lynch before the deadline, preferably not me.

[Enigma]

I'm not convinced enough on Zajent to put a vote on him. I would like to see other people's thought on him before committing to a lynch. However I would like to see a lynch happen today regardless so ....

Also I just would like to say:
Smashbro_of_the_SSS is now playing/signed up for FIVE games in open games (that I can see) and in every game he is being prodded and barely posting anything of use.
While I'm not the best candidate to be critizing someone for null participation it is annoying me because I'm in half his games.

[Enigma]

Zanjet ISO isn't terribly scummy to me. It's rather bland (fluff as so many of you would like to call it) but no where does it shout pro-town or scumscumscum. I just can't get a good read on him yet.

Based on the two ISO's available I'm more inclined to:
VOTE: ConfidAnon
-Bandwagon votes are much worse
-Question about how not to get voted
-Poor activity until being pressured (ironic no?)

[Enigma]

Zajnet has posted VL/A for 48 hours in his other games. That's going to push us to the deadline and will unfortunately leave him no time to defend himself.
He also posted in all his other games apart from this one. Doubt he is going to come back and post anything convincing enough to change our minds.

I would prefer a 48 hour deadline for the scum quicktopic discussion falling on weekdays over weekends also.

Unvote

VOTE: Zajnet

[Enigma]

What reason is there not to hammer? Are you all so dearly waiting for a response from him as to justify your actions?
He claimed VL/A for 2 days, let's just twiddle our thumbs and argue between ourselves when the one person everyone is waiting for won't be returning until a few hours before the deadline! Nothing of interest (apart from Zorblag) has even been posted in the past few days.
Oh please! We should all bow to the logic of the awesomeness of the scum hunting of that of AGar and Gammagoey, they sure know how to tell a scum. Damn! You got me. GG.

Weekends are more active. Having a QT fall on a weekend gives more opportunity for the scum to use it more effectively while town is unable to discuss anything during a period while more people are active.

/close thread plx

PS:

Welllll so much for that paranoia, Beefster's answer makes sense.

I doubt it'll change anything but

Unvote
Vote:ConfidAnon

Happy to see you didn't hammer and voted for a person who was obviously not going to be voted out at this stage of the game. You must be a townie now for sure!

[Enigma]

Well we are just waiting on the flip now since shotty's been hammered.

So ... did town win???
and DAYUM for dying on night one! SIF

[Enigma]

Why night kill me night one!

[Enigma]

PS: Shotty loses the game for scum when I'm scum with him ... loses the game for town when I'm town with him.
GeeGeeeee

[Enigma]

Sad face that noone believed my troll read >: