Open 229 - Vengeful Mafia (Game Over)

[EGL]

/confirm that I am replacementing Mindgamer. I'll do a reread. It's apparently a super long game [/sarcasm] but I'll try to be as timely as possibible.

EGL is in fact the replacement for Mindgamer. Octupis has been prodded as well.

[EGL]

I don't understand the point in speculating about the vengeful kill, but my guess would be because Smash wasn't on the wagon? I've heard before that a lot of times scum have one on the lynch wagon and one off the wagon. So he may have found it safer to go for the one off the wagon rather than misfire at someone on the wagon.

Alternatively, Smash had two posts before his death, one to accuse Robo (he was the first to jump on him) and the other to say he was waiting to hear from Octupis before putting Robo at L-1. So maybe Robo figured Smash knew he'd end up as town?

What's the purpose in speculating about the vengekill? We won't really know what Robo was thinking anyway until endgame when Robo comes back to tell us.

[EGL]

Octupis, why did you ask Robo to claim when you voted him? Do you think Mindgamer is the remaining scum?

This seems to assume that Octupis is town. And it seems like you're trying to paint me as the remaining scum.

1) Why do you assume Octupis to be town?

2) Why are you trying to paint me as scum?

[EGL]

Right. There's really no telling without Robo here, so that's why I don't understand speculation of it. But I think if I were in Robo's shoes, I would have found two things suspicious:

A) Smash took an opportunistic jump at accusing me;

B) Smash wasn't on the wagon, like he knew I was town and wanted to avoid suspicion for the vengekill.

But that's me. I'm usually more suspicious of the people who go out of their way to avoid the wagons on townies or defend townies, especially townies who act scummy, as Robo was doing.

[EGL]

The strategy doesn't necessarily apply to vengefuls specifically. More

small games in general.

I think it came up recently in a newbie game I was in, but it just seems like it would work here.

I think the hammer vote sort of worked out, because Robo hit scum with his Vengekill. It would have been nice to have a longer D1 to go on and to have some discussion on other players. I understand wanting to lynch someone you really think is scum and not let them get away, but I think the speedhammer was a dumb move because we get less information on D2 with such a short D1.

When I replaced in I was pretty suspicious of Octupis for putting Robo at L-1. It seemed like he was either setting up an overzealous townie to drop the hammer or maybe setting it up for smash to drop.

[EGL]

With the Robo flip and reading back over him, it looks like he was deliberately trying to draw the lynch so he could use his vengekill.

[EGL]

No. Mindgamer said he skimmed a few of Robo's OTHER games. Not this one. Please don't misrepresent information.

[EGL]

I said before I don't see the point in speculating about what Robo thought with his Vengekill. I think it's all WIFOM really. But I gave you my opinion because that's how I would have seen it. I'm always suspicious of people who try to avoid wagons, especially after a townie flip, and Smash always was the first to jump out to accuse Robo after his joke about fourth being most townie like. That looks like opportunistic scum making a mountain from a molehill but then he doesn't want to vote against him. I really don't know why nobody bothered to question smash in D1. But this is all after the fact and we know smash flipped scum. so...

I think the bit about the secret scum communication with Octupi is a stretch, especially with you highlighting the word "Yes" and smash still not hammering. I could see a case about Octupi putting Robo at L-1 to try to bait a townie speed hammer and your point about OMGUS after Robo votes Octupis. Although I'm not really enthralled with your introduction of a wave of WIFOM and it feels like you're trying to play divide and conquer with Octupis and myself. I'm not ready to vote yet but I think it's possible that there's Fenchurch scum and I don't think you've really had to do much answering in this game. I'm going to review your posts. I'd really appreciate it if nobody voted for anybody yet.

[EGL]

The rules say that the game is nightless and the mafia can't kill except through lynching. I don't think there's a reason then to fear the deadline, is there?

Oops, didn't even think of that myself
Deadline has been retracted in light of this, as it is pointless.

[EGL]

Fen, you brought up the quicktopic. Was discussion allowed during D1 in the quicktopic?

[EGL]

Oh. I thought maybe you knew something we didn't.

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

That being said, I feel Fen was aggressive toward the robo lynch and introduced this wave of WIFOM. I think she's misused her "for me it's between you two" statements to try to appear as town when in fact the same situation applies if she's scum and she seems to be trying to hurry this phase along. So far I'd feel safest with a lynch on Fen today.

[EGL]

Fen, who would you lynch and why?

Octupis, who would you lynch and why?

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

I reread the game. Two days later you asked me if I was still rereading. And I said no. How is it going back on my word if I reread it already?

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom.

Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you.

This is a baseless argument.

The bolded part is what I had just said. Reread Fenchurch. She made mention of it and I was questioning her as to why.

I really don't think you can blame me for the Robo lynch. It took three votes, and if you didn't think it was a reasonable case at the time then you shouldn't have voted. The thing is, it did seem like a reasonable case at the time. I pushed hard because sometimes a scum player will drop tells when they're under pressure; if instead you say "I'm voting you but I don't think we should lynch you" then that relieves the pressure. I wasn't expecting a townie to react to pressure like Robo did, and it backfired because of that; but I think you agree that Robo's responses did seem scummy, and I was surprised at the flip. I accept that I was aggressive, and I've said why, but you can't hold me responsible for the actions of other players: for the other two votes, or for Robo's posts.

I am not blaming you for the Robo lynch. I did think it was a reasonable case at the time because I joined the lynch later than you did, by that time, he was suggesting a random generator. I had grounds to vote for him, but I think at the start, you rather made an awful lot of his vote. I am not blaiming you for any of the things you mentioned at the end of your post, I just think you were fairly aggressive to be honest. Are you anxious about this, because you have answered it twice just to me already?

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

No. Fenchurch caused WIFOM.

Sorry if I haven't contributed that much. I'm replacing in with very little to go on and it took me a while to get my bearings about this game. I find it odd you complain that I wasn't doing a lot of scumhunting, yet when I do you complain about it. Anyway, you need to reread Fenchurch.

[EGL]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

[EGL]

I'm not really re-reading at this point. I just want some more discussion. It's a bit difficult because I think we've discussed everything that happened from D1.

Why not? You said you would review our posts in post 66. Why have you gone back on your word? It seems to me like an attempt to waste time and defelect attention from you at the time when you could have been put under some pressure by Fenchurch.

You've said a couple times that it's between me and Octupis but I think that would also be true if you were scum. Wouldn't it? Scum wants to mislynch a townie to win so for scum the mislynch is between the two townies. The two of us who are town don't know who is the other town but we both want to lynch scum so we can win.

This is just wifom. Whatever Fenchurch's alignment, she is only ever going to vote for me or you. This is a baseless argument.

As for who I would want to lynch, I am also leaning towards EGL. I beleive that Fenchurch has been doing well to promote discussion, and rather carry the game along. Since you joined EGL, you have slowed us down by false promises, caused wifom, and not really contributed a huge amount. Mindgamer didn't strike me as much of a town player either.

There's your quote where you were complaining. I didn't think I'd need to quote the post right before where I said you had complained.

What I'd like to know is how has Fenchurch promoted better discussion with WIFOM about: 1) Robo's vengekill, 2) scum quicktopics, 3) stating that it's between me and you for her. I wanted to know why she said it to begin with. You parroted what I said, called it WIFOM, and then tried to say that I've caused WIFOM while ignoring Fen's WIFOM. What WIFOM have I directly caused?

I'd also like to note that your point about me trying to slow us down from a quick lynch being a scum tell is a poor point. Longer day phases favor the town. There wasn't much information to go on and so I pointed out that deadlines were pointless when you two were worrying about the deadline and the mod removed the deadline. I didn't want a D2 quick lynch due to the lack of information. Why are you complaining about that?

[EGL]

If I had anything new to post, yes, which I eventually did.

So the only thing that you got from reviewing the whole of the thread was that Fenchurch may have knew information others didn't because of the the quicktopic. I wasn't particularly enthralled by this attack because this is an open game, the role PMs are always posted on the first page. This again seems like pointless WIFOM when I come to think of it. This is not worthy of slowing the game down so you could re read. The more I look at your posts, the more I am thinking you are scum.

Also EGL, you seem to have ignored my request for a quote, when I complained about you scumhunting (apparently).

More complaints. And how is it WIFOM?

Also I didn't say I wanted the game slowed down for a reread. I said I wanted more discussion. I also said it wasn't necessarily discussion about D1.

[EGL]

And in both of those posts I've quoted you complained about me "slowing down the game." Why are you in such a rush to a lynch?

[EGL]

Sorry I've been dealing with IRL drama from someone else in the same line of work and a really busy time with an election in less than two weeks. I'll look at what I've missed and get a post in tonight.

[EGL]

Sorry I think I should be able to continue now.

I've read where Octupis voted for me and you didn't hammer. Since I know my role and I can't imagine you NOT hammering as scum, then

VOTE: Octupis[/unvote]

I'm sure he's scum from this. I know you're probably not sure between the two of us, so I'd like a day to make a case on Octupis. Then you can decide.

[EGL]

Sorry I'm tired and screwed up the end tag.

VOTE: Octupis

[EGL]

Sorry I need a V/LA until August 4. GOTV is a super busy time for me.