Open 224 -- vengeful/Girls Alive! (Game Over)

[Fenchurch]

Morning all!

Vote: charter

McGriddle, if you want to pull out a D1 list like in your last vengeful, I'd be much obliged.

[Fenchurch]

No sign of the other two still? Icerint, maybe you could send out a message telling them the thread is open, I know some people don't check that often.

Outbox'd PMs and msutils may indicate inactivity on the part of the others. I will prod tomorrow as necessary.

Although right now I'm thinking charter and McGriddle are the scum. If the other two were mafs, then I think they'd have been talking in a quick topic and been told, or notice that, the thread is open now.

And because charter posted second I reckon he's the godfather. I'm happy with my vote.

[Fenchurch]

TheButtonmen: What exactly just made you unvote charter?

McGriddle: How do you feel about a charter lynch?

[Fenchurch]

Wait, Fenchurch, you were serious about me being scum because I posted?

Yep.

[Fenchurch]

Charter lynch = dumb, no page page 1 lynches in these games! XD

I'm not saying on page 1. Just in general. My gut is that charter is scum. What does is your gut feeling about that?

[Fenchurch]

Lol. Not even sure where to start ripping apart your nonexistent logic.
<snip>

I disagree. It is perfectly possible for player or moderator post times to betray their alignment.

However, I've done some legwork this morning, going through times in all our post histories on msutils. My doc is here if you wanna see:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dct9tvp2_1gcn22vff

Suffice to say, I don't think it is the case after all. If SV and TBM had both posted elsewhere and not here, then I think there is an argument for them not having noticed the topic, and therefore that you and McG were prompted to notice by the mafia qt closing. But it seems more likely that, as they say, the site was down for them that day.

For now...

unvote

.

[Fenchurch]

The other thing I've been looking at is previous vengeful games. It seems like most of the recent games have gone to the scum, but a little further back there are a few town wins. These are the games I found, if anyone else wants to look at them, for inspiration/advice/whatever:

Open 123
Open 92
Open 64

[Fenchurch]

Why am I scum for posting when the game started and you aren't? How does posting when the thread opens benefit me more as scum than as town? How do you know scum weren't lurking at the start to try and coordinate a quickhammer? What would the town thing to do have been, lurk my pants off?

It's a little hard to answer these questions, some of them don't really apply. I was speculating that, because Icerint didn't send us a message to say the thread had opened, and because mods sometimes do post in the mafia quicktopic when the game begins, that early posters might be scum and late ones town. I'm aware that it's possible that to post early for other reasons, unrelated to role - I did it because I was waiting for this game to start, and I check the board often. And I know I'm the only one who could rule myself out like that; but I don't see that as a reason to ignore it as a case. I have dropped it though, because SV and Buttonmen gave reasons for their lateness, which are backed up by the post histories.

I wasn't saying you would have done it to benefit you, I was suggesting that you were told that the thread had opened and other two didn't.

It is possible that the scum could be the two late players instead - the quickhammer point seems stretching it, surely they can quickhammer whether they're lurkers or not; but there are other reasons scum might post late.

Right now I think that, in this game, the post times don't give good evidence either way.

I don't think it's townie to lurk, I believe lurking always benefits scum more than town.

Also, why did you just unvote me? Who are you suspicious of now?

Because I went through the post times and couldn't find anything to support. Although my gut says you might still be scum, I can't identify anything logically to support that.

Currently I'm most suspicious of SV, for telling people to calm down just now. I think I've seen scum act that way before.

Fenchurch, what's your opinion of McGriddle?

I'm not really convinced by the case on him. I don't know that I believe it is a newbscum move to threaten to vig. Do you have any examples to back that up?

@Fenchurch: I'm sure that's completely within the rules, and maybe even the spirit, of the game. But, for some reason, I can't articulate precisely why I feel so violated.
<snip>
(And for those just looking for a reason to ....whatever, I feel justified in threatening to google TBM due to Fenchurch's opening up that whole can of worms.)

I'm confused, what's within the rules? What can of worms did I open up?

[Fenchurch]

Oh, you're talking about the list of post times thing. Well... sorry, I guess?

[Fenchurch]

Okay I've been reading other games and then re-read ours through this morning.

Thing 1: I can't believe I didn't notice that mafia have daytalk. Is that standard for vengeful games? Anyway, I reckon that could be a huge boon to them and may change how they play... pointing it out in case anyone else wasn't aware of it.

Thing 2: McGriddle's post 32 is kinda sus actually. Besides the name-dodging 'player X' thing, there's the "even if you're town, I'm gonna vig you" threat, which I think is the kind of thing a scum player would say since they know the attacker is town.

Hmm.

[Fenchurch]

Wow... serious? It is real tempting to hammer and find out already. That'd be a super-quick game though, even for a vengeful. But if a wagon formed on the godfather straight away, isn't this what it'd look like? How is it possible to find out for certain?

If it is a McG/Shattered combo then that's a straight win. If McG is the goon though, then I wouldn't rule out charter or Buttonmen bussing.

But also, I don't know if I like charter pushing for a quick game. Maybe I'm just being manipulated by scum trying to get townies to do their dirty work for them.

Ack. Thinking.

SV? Your comments?

[Fenchurch]

Buttonmen: on page 1, you vote charter to L-1 then quickly unvoted because he had made another post which you hadn't seen before. Then you immediately voted McG to L-1.

Presumable the McG vote was also an effectively random vote, to gain a reaction; which later became a 'real' vote.

What made you switch from the charter vote? Why not stick with the reaction/random vote on charter?

[Fenchurch]

McGriddle: In post 25 you say to Buttonmen "I don't think you are scum". Then later you say that he shouldn't vote you because you'll vengekill him even if he's town. Then in post 38 you say that you'll vengekill him because you think he's scum.

Why the change? Seems like maybe it was just in response to charter pointing out your craplogic. If not this, then what?

[Fenchurch]

That vote on charter wasn't random / reaction. It was for serious; if he hadn't made that previous post I'd missed I would have been going after him for reals.

Then was the McGriddle vote for reals too? What had you seen in his play at that point, that made him your top suspect?

[Fenchurch]

Then I'm still not clear, why choose to start a McGriddle wagon rather than a charter one?

Vote: TheButtonmen

Lurkerscum. So is Shattered Viewpoint. Game, set, match.

What is so darn townie about this post of charter's?

[Fenchurch]

You said it in the action of unvoting him.

I just don't get why noticing that post of charter's prompted you to unvote him and switch to McGriddle.

[Fenchurch]

The McGriddle vote start off as me getting a bandwagon going because I wanted to see reactions and see what competing wagon people would chose; then Mcgriddle started being megascum and I became quite content with parking my vote where it was.

Couldn't you, potentially, have achieved something similar by sticking with the charter wagon? You had the option to create a wagon on either player, why did you choose McGriddle over charter?

And I'm still waiting to hear from McGriddle and SV.

[Fenchurch]

I.... wow.

Where did this sudden suspicion of me come from? It's the first I've heard of anyone even saying anything about me (except charter's iso 0, which I assume was just RVS).

Do you think we should lynch McGriddle?

[Fenchurch]

Okay.

I don't like the pushiness of charter and Buttonmen. I can't help imagining them in a scum qt, gloating over how they will be able to convince me if they push a bit harder.

But I don't like SV and McG's reasoning on Buttonmen, I think it's a flimsy case, and seems to be merely echoing things I said earlier. Same with SV attack on charter's "reliable scumtell", it was the same thing I said at the bottom of page 2. And out of Buttonmen and charter, I actually find charter more scummy; I can't pinpoint quite why, but I think he has been more manipulative throughout the game.

Thanks to charter for pointing out the typo; but I still don't think Buttonmen fully answered the question on why he started a wagon on McGriddle instead of charter. At that early stage in the game, surely creating pressure on either player would be equally good, why show a preference? But I'm edging to give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume that it was more or less on a whim. I don't think it's too much of a scummy move.

Actually, I'd say DID say that you would vengekill TBM even if you thought he was town.

You do realize we only have one chance to lynch scum right? And

you're obviously who I am going to kill when I die

, so if you are not scum I suggest you stop pushing for a terrible lynch based off of nothing on page 1, unless you want to lose.

I don't think you are scum though

, because scum wouldn't do something that balsey at the beginning of the game.

Overall, I think SV and McGriddle have put forth a much weaker case. And if I'm wrong, at least McGriddle will have an opportunity make right.

Icerint, I unvoted charter in post 30, but I'll do it again now just to make sure.

Unvote; Vote: McGriddle

[Fenchurch]

Wooohhoooooooo!!!!!

[Fenchurch]

Sorry McGriddle and Shattered Viewpoint, you were in a tough spot and got a bit unlucky there with the first wagon forming on the godfather.

Well done TheButtonmen and charter for being spot on with your voting; sorry for taking longer than you might have wanted to be convinced.

Thanks to Iecerint for modding, you did a solid job and I just realised I spelt your name wrong every time before this, sorry about that.

Thanks all, I really enjoyed this game and the pace was great, looking forward to playing more vengefuls in future.

Will post more in-depth comments later this evening perhaps!

[Fenchurch]

Sorry Fenchurch about post 27, I was really rude, it was unnecessary, but I did feel that your reasoning was extremely flimsy and I was worried scum would latch on to it. I just wanted to quash it before that could happen.

That's okay; I did think at the time was a bit much but that wasn't why I backed off the case. I don't know if it is ever legitimate reasoning or not, but certainly in this game, the post logs and the fact there was daytalk meant there was nowt to support it.

I'm curious to know how much the daytalk was used by mafia. Are you two gonna post your topic?

What SV was saying... is it considered bad sportsmanship to meta people? I always assumed it was standard practice, if you had the time.

[Fenchurch]

Ah... okay I can kind of understand that it's a bit different, maybe. I didn't look at it much, and only included it to show that, for better or worse, I was
a) taking my hypothesis seriously, and
b) serious about dropping it because I didn't have the evidence to back it up.

Question: would you like me to take the doc down now? Otherwise I would leave it up for future readers of the game.