Mini 969 - Smalltown: Stardust Mafia (Game Over)

[Faraday]

been busy with a game going to deadline and a new one that just started so let this slip.

I don't really find Jack that scummy for refusing to answer the questions, it serves him no purpose as either alignment and seems a personality quirk than anything to do with his alignment.

[ooba]

..] Vote Count [..

Faraday (0)

Kdub (0)

MagnaOfIllusion (2)

- Jack, Kdub

havingfitz (0)

ReaperCharlie (5)

- totallynotmafia, MagnaOfIllusion, havingfitz, Starbuck, CallMeLiam

Starbuck (0)

totallynotmafia (0)

Zang (2)

- Faraday, peanutman

Jack (2)

- charter, ReaperCharlie

charter (0)

CallMeLiam (0)

peanutman (0)

Not voting (1)

- Zang

With 12 alive, 7 to lynch!

This would be a good time to talk about the deadline. The first day as an exception, will have 2 weeks + 3 days instead of the normal 2 weeks.

Deadline: 30th May 2010. 4:30 P.M GMT.

I'll put up a clock link soon.

[ReaperCharlie]

Faraday: Why is it not scummy to refuse to answer questions about scummy behavior? I think I explained it pretty well in my

post 248

.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't believe I've ever seen Starbuck as scum, let me go check on that.

Did you actually check on this? If so what results did you find?

I don't really find Jack that scummy for refusing to answer the questions, it serves him no purpose as either alignment and seems a personality quirk than anything to do with his alignment.

What Pro-town purpose is there for any town player to ignore repeated direct questions made of him / her? If you are going to defend Jack’s play as personality quirk you need to be able to provide a motive for his behavior that isn’t scummy or anti-town.

@Liam – Your return from low activity at 237 is to pop in and vote for the leading candidate with a list of generic comments that aren’t really scum-tells?

What do YOU think of my case against Jack?

224 – Although I think the linguistic gymnastics aren’t necessarily strong evidence the fact that Jack appears to be buddying up to Faraday just based on his experience / reputation is a good point IMO. It’s troubling for the same reason I found your peanut comments troubling.

225 – His lack of follow-through regarding my scumminess is at best anti-Town. I don’t necessarily believe that his statement at 187 is unclear.

You didn't answer my question.

You’ve lost any ability to call out anyone on answering questions when you repeatedly ignore those asked to you.

There are obvious benefits to leaving his case unanswered and I intend to take advantage of that.

None of those ‘obvious benefits’ has a Pro-town motive. The most obvious one I can see is that you can't defend your play so you choose to ignore.

Deadline is under 3 days away. Players who aren’t voting (Zang) or are not voting for Reaper need to decide if they will support the Reaper lynch or will support a viable alternate candidate (Jack appears, IMO, to be the next choice).

[charter]

Yeah, not answering questions is really scummy. Especially when those questions can potentially incriminate you. I don't see where you get this null business from.

Regardless of not answering questions, people have given other reasons for Jack being scum, which you didn't comment on.

[charter]

^ That's in response to 250, Magna slipped a post in there.

Not lynching day one is not an option. I'll switch my vote to RC to prevent a no lynch, but honestly, a lurker lynch is a better option than RC. I think of Fitz, Liam, Starbuck, and Peanutman as lurkers. I'd rather not lynch Starbuck, because I'm pretty sure she will be able to post more and the lurking is just her being busy. Peanut voted Zang, so enough town points there to save him from a lurker lynch.

So I'd rather lynch Fitz or Liam over RC, but we should be lynching Jack.

[charter]

What about those voting RC, would you vote for Jack?

[ReaperCharlie]

@ Faraday: Your weak defense of Jack's scummy behavior is noted. Please explain to me how you find it scummy to ANSWER questions (like I have been doing), but you DON'T find it scummy to NOT answer questions (like Jack)? That's pretty backwards.

@ everyone (here's my claim, along with an unabashed Appeal to Emotion):
Please think about it: Why isn't Jack answering my questions? I'm not the only one asking him! Why is Faraday defending Jack's behavior? And why (since they are obviously resisting answering questions) are both Jack

and

Faraday are voting for other people instead of me? Trying to wash their hands of my death when I flip town (which I am)?

[Kdub]

Jack, I don't understand what possible pro-town motivation you would have for not responding to Charlie's case on you.

charter raises a good point regarding roles. If Jack is scum, he can get an extra kill at night, which is potentially dangerous. Also, if Charlie is scum, we won't find out his alignment by lynching him because he is a reviver. That would be bad on D1 when we have nothing else to go on.

Magna seems like he is fence-sitting with regard to Jack, but I actually am feeling pretty good about his recent posts. If Magna is an SK, I would have expected him to quickly get on board the Jack wagon given Jack's uncooperative attitude.

Unvote

Jack needs to explain himself. I'm also interested to hear what Liam comes up with regarding Charlie.

Will have more time to post starting Friday.

[charter]

I doubt Jack is going to explain anything if no one votes him. Unvoting this close to deadline and not putting down another vote is criminal, especially if you aren't going to be here until the day of deadline...

[Jack]

Deadline is good enough. I'll post in a minute.

The fact that there's a wagon on Charlie explains his ridiculous arguments, he's desperate. Kdub, lynch on him plus vig from me takes care of him.

charter is probably scum since he knows me better than he's letting on.

[charter]

I've played like one game with you and your play there was about ten times more protown. How do I "know you better than I'm letting on"? How is that scummy of me?

This is getting ridiculous at how obvscum Jack is.

[Jack]

It isn't flawed if faraday is a townie, which he probably is. That makes it very powerful and better than most other choices for motivator.

He says

Faraday is probably a townie

. Which is always odd at this early point in the game, admittedly I've done it myself. But it's especially odd because, at this point, Faraday's entire posting record ONLY INCLUDED the following:

Faraday is probably a townie because there are 8 townies and 4 scum. The context was in talking about the general strategy of who to motivate, not about the posts of a player.

Now, normally, I wouldn't say anything about this, because I did it myself (called peanutman town after only a very few posts). But I think the way I said it was key: I said "RC's Town List" which meant it was my opinion.

He called peanutman town after one post, that was bad. The way he said it which was "key" is the bad way to say it. Since he was talking about the in thread behavior.

But what Jack said was "if Faraday is a townie, which he probably is" which has 3 conceivable (and likely measurable) effects:

1. due to the backwards way in which the sentence was constructed, players could easily not comprehend what they're reading. this in turn could subliminally direct their supposition about Faraday's alignment. I don't think that he thought of that, but it definitely works out this way in hindsight. (Not to mention, I've realized that this is why I missed it the first time).

Did anyone actually read this garbage? The sentance was backwards in some complicated ploy to subliminally brainwash the town, but I

didn't

think it would do that when I wrote it? So even if the psuedo-psychology stuff was true, I'm not scummy for it? Unless it was my scummy subconscious manifesting itself in the subliminal brainwashing ploy of course.

2. the way he says it, he's not just trying to inform people that it's his own opinion, like I did with peanutman. He's just putting it right out there that Faraday is probably a townie. Not quite fact, but not quite his opinion. This looks scummy too.

8 townies 4 mafia.

3. One of Jack's 5 previous posts was a vote on him. I've seen numerous times that a townie (player X) has suspected scum (player Y), and then the scum somehow flip it around and say "player X is town because of such and such" and then all of a sudden like magic, X doesn't suspect Y nearly as much any longer. It's a clever trick for the following reason: if X is trying to scumhunt more because he feels the need to prove himself as a townie, he is looking for approval. He has a subconscious need to respect the opinion of everyone who calls him town, and then when a scum player calls him town, his opinion of that scummer automatically raises because he trusts that person's opinion about himself. Not the oldest trick in the book, but it's always been a good one, and works even on non-newbies.

You mean one of Faradays posts. And it was a RVS vote. So there was no townie player suspecting a scum player. Which is the basis for this long rambling paragraph.

This irks me for two reasons, the obvious one about Zang (doesn't think he's scummy, even though a lot of others seem to)

Why on earth would it irk you that I don't think Zang is scummy even though a lot of others seem to? That's an "obvious reason"? Did you really want a Zang mislynch, and my lack of support "irks you"?

But then only a few posts later he backtracks and says magna is probably town:

It's possible that magna is town and simply jumps on the rhetoric-train for no good reason.

Possible is not probably. Reaper is just making these arguments up. Some townies habitually use scummy rhetoric in self defense like Magna was doing. That is a

possible

explanation of what I found scummy about Magna.

This statement is clearly worded in a way that could be grossly misread as sarcasm; I think the post was intended to be suggestive of sarcasm, possibly so that he could backtrack either way about Zang later on, if he needed to in order to look innocent.

No, I have been rather vocal and committed in my defense of zang. None of his posts are suspicious. My past experience playing with him is why I feel that way, as town he hammered scummily with an ISO that was a basic summary with no analysis, it got him lynched the next day, he sounded just like this.

*****************

Scum team is Reaper--charter--kdub. More in a minute.

[Jack]

I've played like one game with you and your play there was about ten times more protown. How do I "know you better than I'm letting on"? How is that scummy of me?

This is getting ridiculous at how obvscum Jack is.

You've played two games with me and in both of them I

blatantly and repeatedly

refused to answer questions questions.

********

"obvious reasons for not responding to case" I left out the explanation for this. Clearly faulty cases like Reapers are a good test for scum. Does a normally insightful player hold off comment to see if the wagon will go through?

******

I have kdub as scum for setting up his vote with the "jack is vig, reaper is revivor" bit. It's laughable to dismiss the idea of lynching the revivor because it will take to shots to kill him.

Charter in the next post sounds like he's urging a scumbuddy to vote.

I probably made myself look silly by trying to name the whole scum team but I'm pretty pleased about it.

[Jack]

I've played like one game with you and your play there was about ten times more protown.

I forgot--

I WAS PUT AT L-1 AND DAYVIGGED BY PAGE 4 IN THAT GAME.

charter is scum.

[Jack]

Avatar mafia in coney island if you want to check.

[Jack]

Put at L-1 and dayvigged, for, I might add, deliberately not answering a question to see what reactions I got. Which charter claims to think is super suspicious this game.

It's a game I like to play.

[Zang]

I will be V/LA until Friday/Saturday

I don't know which day I will be back on.

[ReaperCharlie]

Wow, even when you finally answer some questions, your answers are poor and evasive for the most part. So...

1. How does the ratio of town/scum mean that Faraday is a townie?

2. Why is it bad to say I have Peanutman pegged as town in my book?

3. Yes, my 'garbage' explains why you're scummy for trying to subtly manipulate the minds of anyone who reads your post without actually examining it. And yes, 'scummy subconscious' is OFTEN the best way to catch scum.

4. Again, "8 townies 4 mafia" isn't a valid reply. Ratio of town/scum is not an answer.

5. The way you said it made it obviously that you were trying to buddy with Faraday. Faraday has now defended you as well, so that's an incontrovertible link between the two of you.

6. Yes, I think it's scummy that you didn't think Zang's backtrack was scummy. My scumlist includes you, Zang, and Faraday.

7. So you think that Magna is possibly town and is just using habitually scummy rhetoric, and that MAY be the reason you suspect him? Apparently I have done the same thing, which is why five votes are on me.

8. The only 'vocal and committed' defense of zang you have ever posted is here:

- "Having played with zang before I haven't seen anything to make me think he's scum."
- "Yes. I very much buy that that is how Zang was using the term town vs town."
- "I would argue that you are misusing 'backtracking' in your accusation of Zang, based on his misuse of 'town vs town'."

-----

So why, if you think I'm scum, aren't you voting for me? You also think charter and Kdub, and you're not voting them either.

You're voting for MagnaofIllusion, who you say is possibly town. Why aren't you voting for who you say you think is SCUM? Explain this madness.

[ReaperCharlie]

I will be V/LA until Friday/Saturday

I don't know which day I will be back on.

How convenient. Now I know you're scum, too.

[Zang]

I will be V/LA until Friday/Saturday

I don't know which day I will be back on.

How convenient. Now I know you're scum, too.

so, just because I'm going v/la means I'm scum? There is no possibility that their might be something in real life tearing me away from the computer?

[ReaperCharlie]

You conveniently disappeared when the heat went off you onto me. Obvscum.

[Zang]

There is no possibility that their might be something in real life tearing me away from the computer?

[charter]

Ok, I am going to cry if we don't end up lynching Jack.

You've played two games with me and in both of them I blatantly and repeatedly refused to answer questions questions.

What's the other one besides Avatar? Your meta defense is worthless, as are almost all meta defenses.

Put at L-1 and dayvigged, for, I might add, deliberately not answering a question to see what reactions I got. Which charter claims to think is super suspicious this game.

There were several reasons you were killed, not just one. I've given other reasons for suspecting you this game, you've ignored them.

Jack is saying I'm scum because I "know him better than I'm letting on". This has to be the most ridiculous reason for calling someone scum I have ever seen. I've played one (maybe two, but I don't remember the other one) game with Jack. Jack even said he was killed on page four, so how am I supposed to know him well. He doesn't explain how even if his accusation were true, how it makes me scummy.

Jack's suspicions on RC, me and Kdub are entirely OMGUS. His arguments are terrible. And guess what, he's still voting Magna! Who wants to bet he jumps on the easy wagon of RC?

I'm calling it right now. RC is town. If he gets lynched today and flips town, I'm absolutely using that as evidence against Jack.

Lynching Zang would also be a great way to end the day. He's done zero scumhunting. He's been scum. He lurks like nobody's business. And now he's going to be V/LA until deadline and isn't voting. I'd love to give him more time to deal with things in real life that are keeping him away from the computer.

[Zang]

I'm going to come back two days before deadline. And if you want me to vote, I will vote.

Vote:ReaperCharlie

for not even considering that I will actually be V/LA and instead calling me "obvscum".