NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Sevis]

As far as I understand we're supposed to /confirm through PM, but won't hurt to do so here, too.

[Sevis]

I find SSBF to be trying way too hard -- not so much because he is undertaking rather overambitious projects in hope to find scum, but because he is repeatedly stating obvious matters as if they were brilliant ideas of his (8, to a lesser extent 29, 48, very clear again in 54) and demanding that no others go to such absurd lengths (again 54). I'm getting more of a VI read than a scum one. One thing that does bug me is his implied thread in 54:

If you're high up, then you're doing great and I encourage you to do just as well or even better. If you're in the middle,

you're safe for now, but I want to see more out of you.

If you're low, you're on thin ice and if you're in the lowest ranking, expect a vote from me.

Don't fret now, thought. Everyone has a neutral read from me now, since this is after all, pre-game. Plus, this is in alphabetical order for now.

There is nothing to worry about until the rankings actually start to change.

The two bold bits struck out as especially unusual: it seems to me like SSBF is expecting people to care quite a bit about what he thinks of them. I can see how this would fit VI mentality, though, so it stays my main guess.

[Sevis]

1. 4 on this site, another three elsewhere with highly different rules.
2. No, not at all.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No, really, no!

[Sevis]

The lack of organisation here is overwhelming. Lots of people disagreeing with each other, it's not quite what I'm used to. But, all the more fun.

SSBF still looks like a VI.
Parama looks like someone who wants to drive the game past the RVS at any cost.
vezopiraka looks mildly suspicious, but nowhere near enough for a vote.
Vi had intended to reserve comment, and then made several posts.
Seraphim was giving town vibes, but his last post seems out of place.
daniel seems to be a bossy VI. On the other hand, he's defending vezopiraka far too zealously.
LynchMePls is interesting, but I can't make any conclusions yet. Not implying he is suspicious.

Vote: daniel94581

for getting overly defensive about someone, please explain yourself.

[Sevis]

Unvote

I like foilist13's posts on the matter of vezopiraka and daniel. 300 brings up an interesting point, but I don't think it applies in this case -- to be blunt, I do not feel daniel thought things through anywhere near as far as that. It also does not seem likely that people in a scumteam would be accusing each other (except to bus... but it would be Seraphim doing that, not vezopiraka). For now, I believe Seraphim's claim.

Leafsnail's ISO looks fine to me.

I was expecting vezopiraka's attack on LMP to be an attempt to push a lynch for his main suspect. This version doesn't work if LMP has some sort of information on vezopiraka, though.

SGRaaize's second post looks very unusual to me. He's on the fence with SSBF, `curious' about the matter but not doing any questioning. He's also not been too clear about accusing Parama and Lowell.

Vote: SGRaaize

[Sevis]

I'm sorry if I'm posting too little -- currently trying to keep up a rate of two or three posts a day. I'm not in the US timezones, so I'm asleep during the most active period of discussion.

So far, I like foilist's ideas, but don't have a read on him. His efforts at catching the scum make him look pro-town, but this isn't all that hard in a two-group game.
I do agree that if one of the masons flips werewolf, we should (probably, depends on circumstances) lynch another to make sure they're not a scumteam.
askbob hasn't been voicing suspicions all that much. Probably styles-of-play, but still find it noteworthy.
Dry-fit needs to post more...
Dr. Robotnik voting for a mason for rather weak reasoning concerns me.
LMP still looks pretty town, although the strictness of his formulation is mildly suspicious.
pman needs to post more, but it seems that he, like me, finds this to be a little bit too much of a crowd.
nhammen looks mildly scummy for jumping on the vezopiraka wagon, then shifting away from it rather suddenly. I can see why he could find a LMP lynch to give information, but it still seems like he is targeting vezopiraka too much.
Unsight is spotting a lot of interesting little bits of information, but doesn't seem to be voicing any opinions on scumminess. Doesn't look good at all.

Not going to change vote at the moment.

[Sevis]

Vi, I feel like Seraphim was put in the position where he could either claim, or at least one of his buddies would be lynched. I voted for daniel because I noticed him being overly defensive: vezopiraka, on the other hand, is a case I am having a lot more trouble figuring out.

[Sevis]

Well, I'm honoured to be considered an experienced player, but this really is confusing me rather horribly. I meant that I was trying to keep up a minimal number of posts because for one, I'm quite happy to read threads while they're moving and only post when I have nothing more to read, and, more importantly, I'm currently swamped with schoolwork, so I'm not checking this 24/7 as I normally would.

I don't like Dry-fit's comment on LMP -- it's as if the general opinion on LMP is that he's town, while this clearly isn't the case. In general, the aggressiveness against LMP doesn't look too good.
I'm curious about LMP's explanation of vezo's actions. He seems to be aware that vezo can know his alignment and he can know vezo's, does not feel like vezo is scum, and none the less, vezo is attacking him. I'm currently leaning towards a pair of lovers, as a mason in two groups seems unlikely. Vezo also claimed either Seraphim or daniel are scum: I'm getting the impression he feels that he needs to get rid of allies. Hm. Is he afraid that the extra opportunities to chat will give extra possibilities for him to make a scumslip?
SGRaaize's post looks strange, too. He's not taking into account that daniel's slips could be related to his (highly likely) role of mason. On the other hand, he is fully acknowledging their mason status, and brings it up at every opportunity, as if it had anything to do with his reasons for wanting to lynch them.
Reading ISOs, I'm getting the feeling the mason group is receiving far too much attention. Dr. Robotnik is, indeed, rather inactive, but I don't think I want to see him lynched. Chronopie and Midnight have hardly given all that much info, either. I can see the point in pressuring him to participate, though.
I'd like to hear more from pman.

If you think I could do more, please do suggest, but I think you are overestimating me by far.

[Sevis]

Interesting finds, both nhammen and Parama. Now that I re-read foilist's posts, he does seem to be rolefishing quite a bit: previously, I took this for him just trying to make sense of the game. I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet. Vezo really is contributing far less to the game than he could be, hinting at the role without any clarification only helps scum, as far as I can see.

The speed with which Chronopie jumped on the nhammen wagon does surprise me -- he seems to be hoping to put the focus away from him and thus be forgotten. This doesn't look like very pro-town play to me. I also have to agree that his attempts at rolefishing would cause more harm if they were successful (I see LMP's role and knowledge to currently be of more importance than vezo's).

FOS: Chronopie

Unvote; Vote: nhammen

[Sevis]

Vi, could you please point out why exactly my vote for nhammen was scummy?

[Sevis]

Yes, I was and still am not sure my reasoning is all too good. I agree with parts of the case nhammen built, but ``I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet.''. nhammen has made me look at the situation from a new direction, but I didn't find that new perspective impressive enough to give me a town read on him. Thus, I saw the countercase presented by Parama and found it much more convincing. It was certainly better than the read I had on SGRaaize. I find that a wagon right now will probably not lead to a lynch, but will add a lot to the structure of the game, which will make it easier to take a look at everyone and understand the situation better. Thus: I did not and do not see my vote as making me `obvscum', but do see it having rather poor reasoning -- not the worst on the wagon, but of a lower standard than I would normally put out.

[Sevis]

[quote="Sevis, ISO 7]Reading ISOs, I'm getting the feeling the mason group is receiving far too much attention.[/quote]

This is my main reason for voting you, nhammen. Vi seems to not understand what I mean with it, but I still insist this game is -- at the moment -- far too messy for my liking. I do not feel your wagon will lead to a lynch, but having a wagon of this size will let me note down people's opinions on it, letting me get further with scumhunting. I'm still busy with ISOing people about it, but I'll hopefully get that done today.

The case on you was built on the fact that you were treating foilist and Chrono very differently, which I agree with. You overreacted to foilist and underreacted to Chrono. None the less, you reacted to both, and those reactions were interesting to see, and were one's that I didn't entirely disagree with.

Unvote

[Sevis]

Jesus, I'm gone one day and I get to read 5+ pages to catch up. Ok, 1st,

unvote

. If vezo is town the the mafia have to deal with him, and he's no longer our problem. That unfortunately does not negate the fact that he is completely useless.

This lights up as scummy to me. If we know vezo is town, why would anyone have to ``deal with him''? And why specifically the mafia?

[Sevis]

Jesus, I'm gone one day and I get to read 5+ pages to catch up. Ok, 1st,

unvote

. If vezo is town the the mafia have to deal with him, and he's no longer our problem. That unfortunately does not negate the fact that he is completely useless.

This lights up as scummy to me. If we know vezo is town, why would anyone have to ``deal with him''? I see the third sentence as a werewolf slip.

[Sevis]

Vezopiraka is still showing no sign of logic. I'm half-way done with ISOs, and so far, Midnight stood out when I was reading, but I can't figure out why. Dr. Robotnik's hopping has been noted before. He seems to be mostly targeting VIs. His list of suspects, other than SSBF and daniel, includes LMP -- who, although he certainly isn't a VI, is new. Doesn't look all too good.

Vote: Dr. Robotnik

, at least until I can finish re-reading.

[Sevis]

Finally someone who bothers to comment on my points, instead of simply calling me obvscum.

An example of rather poor logic:

The mod didn't want to start the game early because lowell hasn't confirmed via PM. He then says that after lowell confirmed wants to give more time to the people with night talk abilities.

He is not a mason or a monk therefore he must be scum.

The entire piece looks horribly far-fetched, with the last part especially standing out. Should we be lynching everyone who isn't a mason/monk? And why in the world would Vezo want to give hints about who isn't in the monk group, thereby making it easier for the scum to pick out the right one?

My comment on Midnight means that I clearly had the feeling there was something important (important, not necessarily scummy) about him, but that I couldn't figure out what it was again.

I find that only targeting newer/VI players is a scumtell, yes. He voted SSBF without stating any reason at all. His next vote, on daniel, had somewhat better reasoning, but he's kept it up for a rather long time without adding anything. I don't think him missing the nhammen wagon was accidental: nhammen is a far more experienced player, not someone Dr. Robotnik would want to go up against.

LMP, could you please name someone more suspicious, alphabetically up to nhammen? Chronopie is close due to rolefishing, lack of content in the early game, and his jump on the nhammen wagon.

[Sevis]

Ah. Somewhat, yes. I still find it poor play to be lowering the number of possible monks, and I don't see any point at all in double-guessing the mod. But, yes, I'd say it's just poor play (which I know is hypocrisy, but none the less), I cannot find any logic errors in it.

[Sevis]

I just explained why I thought you had poor logic, and then why I was wrong to think so. Where's the fluff?

[Sevis]

Yes, my attacks are entirely hypocritical, and the only reason I'm not targeting myself is because I know my own alignment. Would you suggest I target nobody at all?

LMP complained I'm targeting someone who isn't all that scummy: I asked him who he finds scummier than Dr. Robotnik in the list of players I've had time to read on.

[Sevis]

Vi, I have no idea what I could possibly say to convince you I'm not scum. You seem to be implying I should tunnel one of the more experienced players. I'll try to get a case together on either you or leafsnail, I think.