Mini 969 - Smalltown: Stardust Mafia (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

If my slot is not up by 9:30 or so EDT I'll post my provisional picks.

And hilarious that anyone could have chosen the high numbers to draft early. Good job reading the WIFOM there Faraday

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I don't want to hold up things since I am headed to sleepy land ...

My list of choices, in decending order (ie most wanted at the top of the list)

Tristan Thorne
Ditchwater Sal
Victoria
Captain Shakespere
Yvaine

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ditchwater Sal for me, as per my list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: Peanutman

because he's a food-stuff with multiple lives.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The problem with tracking is that I believe the Lord Sept. is immune to being Tracked.

Let me check in another window ... yes I am remembering correct.

I'd suggest Bodyguarding would be a good double choice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Funny ... if you remembered it from the opening post why didn't you say that Tracking, specifically to find the Lord Sept, was completely flawed?

[MagnaofIllusion]

When you said he couldn't be tracked I remembered it right away, no need to "check in another window". Were you or weren't you adding that bit so that it didn't look like you had intimate knowledge of the SK role pm?

I typed it and then clicked over to look at Ooba's role description of Billy the Goat in Post 1 where the information is located. Why didn't you remember right away when Kdub mentioned Tracking the SK if it was so obvious?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You didn't say whether you were adding the bit on purpose, to emphasize that you didn't have intimate knowledge of the SK role pm.

I’ll refer you to 98 again. As I typed my response to KDub and your posts at 92 and 93 regarding who was a good motivator target it occurred to me that Lord Sept. wasn’t trackable per Billy the Goat’s role pm. So I typed my thoughts and clicked over as described in 98 and came back and typed the remainder. I added the bit in question because it’s what I was doing. I didn't post them with some ulterior motive.

And again, what about my pointing out that Billy the Goat can’t track Lord Sept has anything to do with being familiar with the Lord Sept / SK role PM? That information is contained in the Billy the Goat role PM. The Lord Sept role PM posted by Ooba in post 2 says nothing about not being tracked.

It isn't flawed if faraday is a townie, which he probably is. That makes it very powerful and better than most other choices for motivator. Wasn't thinking about the SK part of it when I said "tracker is good"

Why were you not considering that tracking of Lord Sept when Kdub’s post says the following

Never played in a game with a motivator before, sounded interesting so I took it. Any thoughts on who to target?

I was thinking maybe the tracker since it will help them find the SK,

even if the tracker is scum. Maybe the bodyguard would be an OK choice too.

The reason he gives for the tracker being such an attractive option is the ability of the tracker to hunt for Lord Sept even as scum. The fact that Billy the Goat can’t track the SK sort of throws that logic out the window, doesn’t it.

I didn't pay any attention to that part.

So you didn’t pay any attention and didn’t recall until I posted it. But I’m engineering a grand scheme by stating I needed to look up the information myself. Got it.

More generally, what is the purpose of your "counterattack" questions?

I’m trying to decide if you really believe the crap you are spouting here or are trying some poorly devised reaction fishing.

Magna, why did you have to point out that you were checking if Lord Sept could be tracked in the thread, why the need for the running commentary? It's kind of strange, even stranger that you actually knew what the SKs name was without having to check that.

I'm liking Jack's case on Magna at the moment. Even if Magna is telling the truth in post 98, the Billy the Goat role PM specifically refers to the SK as "Septimus" and not "Lord Septimus". The "lord" part is only mentioned in the setup section, but Magna only said he looked at the role PM for information.

So you both find it odd that I might remember flavor from the source material more clearly than a game mechanic point from a role I didn’t even want to chose? Just want to be clear on this.

Also, every time I see Mr. Bean's posts and am reminded that he learns everything, that makes me scared that he is scum. Regardless of whether or not we are lovers, the fact that he may have the most powerful role worries me.

He doesn’t learn everything just a set amount of skills. And if I remember correctly he only can use 1 a Night regardless of how many he knows. His role is akin to a JOAT in that case. Powerful but limited.

The tracker is probably the way to go as far as motivation in that it minimizes the upside to scum.

@ Faraday, charter, zang and peanut – Your thoughts on motivating the Tracker as the best town choice.

Finally as with every weekend I’ll be V/LA from today at 5pm EDT until Monday. The weekends are mostly family time so I don’t have much time for posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First it’s good to know you can’t didn’t bother to answer any of the questions in 110.

He claims I am lying and tries to say that tracking is useless

Nice mis-rep. I said and quote

Funny ... if you remembered it from the opening post why didn't you say that Tracking,

specifically to find the Lord Sept

, was completely flawed?

I’ve bolded for emphasis. Please show where in 96 I say tracking is useless. I said tracking Lord Sept was a flawed reason to motivate the Tracker.

This is clearly false...he says he thinks I either

a) believe my argument (in which case I am town)
or
b) poorly devised reaction fishing, aka scumhunting (also implies town-ness, certainly not an accusation).

A. Is it impossible for you, as a Witch or Lord Sept., to be making an argument hoping to hunt the other? Does not imply town in the slightest. Null.
B. Again, is it impossible for you as a Witch or Lord Sept, to poorly reaction fish? Again, doesn’t imply town at all. Null again.

But his initial reaction to my post was to say that I was lying about remembering the SK couldn't be tracked because I didn't mention it in response to kdub's post.

You attacked me for ‘faking’ the thread –

Yes, I'm sure you really had to check another window to make sure of that

...I remembered it from reading over the opening posts a couple times while thinking about what I wanted to pick/how the system works

. Sounds like you are afraid of someone saying you are overly acquainted with the SK role pm.

You specifically say (again emphasis added) that you remembered it from reading over the opening posts a couple of times so I shouldn’t have had to look it up.

What did you remember? Again, if you remembered Lord Sept couldn’t be tracked why didn’t you mention it directly in 93 in response to Kdub’s post? If that’s not it what an earth in my post could you have remembered from reading the roles?

Finally, other people have made the same type of argument on him, and he has not lashed back. Doesn't he want to see if they really believe their arguments?

Again, failure to read my response to TNM and Kdub in 110.

Anything else you'd like to incorrectly analyze or portray Jack?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Work has been a bitch ... will have something to say either later today or tomorrow in the AM EDT.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But yeh I probably won't take that much direction on my tracking, I'll track who I figure most likely to be scum, or who commits the night kill.

Can you explain the bolded part please? Are you saying you will track the player think is most likely to be making the Night kill?

I would also say that MoI's avoidance of Jack's questions makes him appear even scummier.

Please point me to a question of Jack’s that ignored.

Also, regarding 138 – In an open set-up like this with known roles but unknown alignments there is going to be WIFOM regardless of how dirty a word it is to you.

This clutching at straws seems like you're trying your hardest to paint people scummy,

You don’t see determining that I am Lord Sept. simply based on a line you find “strange” as grasping at straws?

I think the majority seems to think that Motivating Faraday is the way to go.

I think the thread needs more Starbuck.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, or if I am really writing things in a hard-to-understand manner.

If you do it again though, I am switching my vote to you because you are obviously trying to twist the words I am saying to mean something else, to mean whatever fits what you want others to believe. Doing that often means someone has a hidden agenda.

So you can’t be sure whether you aren’t writing clearly or if Kdub is purposely twisting your words. But you will switch your vote to him if he does it again. And that thing, which you are indicating is scummy, could just be your inability to write in a clear manner.

My reasoning for FoSing Zang: Now that I look back at it, I wasn't really that suspicious of him. I'm still not. What I was suspicious of, was all the attention he was getting. That's the reason I put down 3 FoS's in a row, because out of all the people arguing/being argued about at that moment, those were the three that I was most suspicious of.

You were not suspicious of Zang but of the attention he was getting. So you threw down 3 FoS in a row at the people you were most suspicious of. These FoSs were –

]In conclusion:

FoS: MagnaofIllusion
FoS: totallynotmafia
FoS: Zang

So you were and weren’t suspicious of Zang at the same time? You FOSed Zang to show suspicion on other players? What are you trying to say?

BTW, I haven't forgotten about Magna. He has yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation for the Septimus thing. If he is claiming that his knowledge of the source material is what made him refer to the SK as "Lord Septimus", I have to disagree. My memory (and others should point out if I am wrong here) is that he was simply referred to as "Septimus" most of the time in both the book and the movie. The role PM that he supposedly checked also said "Septimus".

I’ve given you the answer you are going to get – the truth. If you don’t like it and find it suspicious that’s fine but don’t think I’m going to provide you with a different answer just to appease you. Please address the following for me –

1. Is not directly remembering the mechanics of a role I had no interest in personally as it applied specifically to another role scummy?
2. Please indicate why remembering he is called Lord Septimus is scummy. You acknowledge he is referred to in this way in both source materials, even if it is not the majority of the time.

His deflection and air of overdefensiveness just doesn't sit well reading his 1v1 with Jack.

If turning the tables on someone who attacks me for frivolous and patently incorrect reasons is seen as defensive so be it. Post 110 pretty much clearly shows why I think Jack’s reasoning is absurd.

@Jack - While you are at it mind answering the following question –

Yes, I'm sure you really had to check another window to make sure of that...

I remembered it from reading over the opening posts a couple times while thinking about what I wanted to pick/how the system works.

Sounds like you are afraid of someone saying you are overly acquainted with the SK role pm.

You specifically say (again emphasis added) that you remembered it from reading over the opening posts a couple of times so I shouldn’t have had to look it up.

What did you remember? Again, if you remembered Lord Sept couldn’t be tracked why didn’t you mention it directly in 93 in response to Kdub’s post? If that’s not it what an earth in my post could you have remembered from reading the roles?

[MagnaofIllusion]

RC, I really don't find listing who you think is pro-town to be very helpful at all, as this just gives scum bulls eyes for people to take out. Please stop.

Aside from WIFOM involving RC being scum what downside is there to listing Town reads? The Witches know that 8 of 9 players are town already. It’s not like this set-up is closed where you could be highlighting PRs with a Town list.

I hate it when people misrepresent the spirit of what I am trying to say, and pick apart the technical manner I use to say it in order to try to paint me a color that I'm not. If in my often-overanalytical huff I speak in a confusing manner, hey, I'll admit to that. It happens more than I'd like to admit. But that's now how I saw it in that case.

Your writing style not-withstanding pointing out what I perceive as a direct contradiction in your statement isn’t “picking apart the technical manner … in order to paint me a color that I’m not”. And how can I “misrepresent” the spirit of what you are trying to say? If you aren’t writing clearly no-one should be expected to be a mind-reader regarding your statements.

2. Because when you were supposedly checking the Billy role PM for the tracker-SK info (again, not inherently scummy),

you should have seen that the PM said "Septimus" and referred to the SK as such.

I mean, if we were playing Star Wars mafia (which I need a replacement for BTW [/shamelessplug]), you wouldn't normally refer to Vader as "Lord Vader" even though he is sometimes called that in the movie, would you?

No, I would probably refer to him as Darth Vader, which would be the equivalent title for that role in flavor source material. As for the bolded portion you are once again assuming that I’m not familiar enough with flavor that I would have to look up Lord Sept’s name.

Unvote, Vote: ReaperCharlie.

You seem trying quite so hard to say in no uncertain terms that you are doing town a favor by creating discussion. Town needs more direct scum-hunting and less mass FOSing and strangely worded posts. And at this point I sense you are more worked up by TNM's vote on you than vice versa.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In a word, yep!
What's your point? Do you disagree?

Your activities themselves should speak for you as to whether you are ‘helping’ town or not. Constantly stating you are is suspect in my eyes.

You disapprove of my scumhunting style? Oh noes! My feelings are almost hurt!

Aside from pointless sarcasm please clarify what exactly the style you are using is. Is it randomly accusing or baiting others for reactions?

Also, what is your reason for voting me? Because my posts are strangely worded? Or because you were one of the people I FoS'd earlier? Or is it something that makes sense.

I note that your presumption is that my reasons don’t make sense. On to the reasons -

1. Your posts are unclear and contradictory. Your triple FOS exercise is a most recent example of that. You state you were trying to open up the game discussion by drawing heat away from Zang, who you didn’t find suspicious. But the only people you FOSed in that post were Zang, myself and TNM. None of whom where pressuring or voting for Zang. How is FOSing Zang going to pull heat off him? Your post directly contradicts your stated intentions. Consistency and clarity are necessary for town to successfully hunt Scum.

2. The tone and method by which you go after those who question you is Anti-town at best. Threatening to vote Kdub based on a situation that might be solely due to your own communication style is a first example. Your inference that I OMGUS voted for you simply because you FoSed me is another example. Attacking the accuser is a tactic I often see in scum.

3. The direct change in your playstyle due to criticism. By your own admission you fluffed your way up until 134. Charter and Kdub call you on it and suddenly you go into overdrive with posting volume. Inconsistency again, IMO.

4. Your immediate Town read on Peanut and assertion that anyone who didn’t share the read is scummy is suspicious on it’s own.

Also also, since you don't seem to be against read-lists, who are your town and scum reads?

This early in the game having a Town read is almost impossible in my eyes. I’d say that the players I am most leaning towards being town are Farady, charter, and peanutman.

As for player’s I’d lean towards being scum (aside from yourself, who I voted) are Jack, fitz (due to Mr. Bean solely), and starbuck.

Note for the most part these reads are mostly gut inspired and thus are likely to change as more posts and activity arise.

Finally I will be V/LA from now until Monday morning for my general week-end family responsibilities. I’ll check the tread as much as I can but don’t expect large amounts of posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thought process: Do random stuff > get people to suspect you > get scum to hop on your bandwagon for thin reason > nail them for exactly that (among other things).

So you are specifically acting in a random fashion to bait scum to attack you. Erratic play, regardless of what level you are playing at, is going to attract attention of town players as well as scum. How, on Day 1 where information available is at it’s leanest, do you differentiate between town with founded suspicions and scum with thin reasons?

1. I wasn't originally trying to pull heat off Zang, per se

If I accept you at your word on this (and I will for the moment), then the following you posted is invalid –

WIFOM aside, what motivation (if I was scum) do you think I would have for

sticking my neck out to rip people off of a quickwagon on Zang

, and being willing to deal with the sh*tstorm that would inevitably follow? Whether or not Zang is scum, if I was scum, there is no good reason for that action.

If your original intention was not to pull off heat from Zang you can’t defend your actions and say “What motiviation would I have (as scum) to stop a quicklynch on Zang?”. You’ve just said that you didn’t have that motivation, that it was only an unintended side effect.

We got out of the fluff-RVS and I started contributing. Why do you think it's scummy to say that I started contributing?

Firstly there is no reason you can’t contribute in a non-fluff manner in RVS. Secondly you are missing the key reason I don’t like the change – it happened (IMO) as a direct result of criticism from other players (Charter and Kdub). It’s similar to a player who makes what is perceived as a poor vote and when called on it immediately unvotes instead of defending their position.

Why? You yourself said you believe peanutman is one of the most likely to be town, as it says below.
How is having a town read almost impossible? And you picked the same guys as me lol, well, except for Jack.

For someone concerned with misreps you’ve chosen to take an interesting interpretation of my list. I said peanut was on of those “I am most leaning towards being town”. I don’t have a solid town read on anyone. This is mostly a gut reaction which is based on playstyles. For me a more solid read comes from continued observation and the results of lynches / nightkills. That you say so quickly into day 1 “anyone who disagrees with peanut is Obvscum” makes little sense to me.

And not to seem too contentious, ( ) but you seem to be picking out Jack because he started the mini-wagon on you with his vote, and Mr.Bean and Starbuck due to inactivity alone.

I have my suspicions of Jack based on his relatively content free posting style and lack of followthrough with anything having to do with serious scum-hunting. As for fitz and starbuck my suspiciouns generally do revolve on their lack of activity. It’s hard to judge a player when they aren’t posting anything to analyze.

The passive-aggressive way in which you seem to be asserting that my initial suspicions aren’t valid is noted.

What are your opinions on Zang? Do you think he's backtracking? Do you think he's scum? I am personally beginning to see a pattern I don't like in Zang. That is where my attention is at the moment.

Zang is playing similar to what I’ve seen in the past so I don’t have immediate raised hackles regarding his ‘town versus town’ comment. I don’t see it as backtracking. I think, if anything, it’s a poor language choice which I have seen him repeatedly make in the past. That said I don’t put much stock in meta. If anything I’d like more content from him since most his posts are defense of the town versus town issue. Obviously if I was leaning to his being scum this early I’d have put him on my list, wouldn’t I?

Please, eludicate on this ‘pattern’ you are seeing.

RC is killing me with his wallposts and I don't feel up to reading that + rereading magna right now.

Reading isn’t a hardship, although I’m sure your response is part of you playing to your Meta. From this can I expect that your scum-hunting is going to manifest in your nightly “Vig” action?

So you admit to deflecting his questioning of you in order to spin it all back around on him?

Interesting.

Yes, it is interesting the way you attempt to frame my response in a negative manner. I’m not going to shy away from questioning the motives and content of someone’s attacks on me that I feel or frivolous or incorrect. So no, I am denying that I deflected his questions. I am admitting to questioning him in trying to determine his motivations.

I know some of my posts can be big, but they are concise. These college essay style postings need to stop, and when they do, I bet activity would pick up

As I said above reading isn’t a hardship.

Unvote
Vote: ReaperCharlie

I'm not liking the feeling that he's going out of his way to be distracting

Weren’t you just saying something about being opportunistic when you don’t provide examples for an accusation?

@Peanut / Fitz / Zang / Liam - More content please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

[quote=Reaper]
Also, I want Jack to respond to my case instead of strawmanning it.
[/quote]

Really I don't see Jack as strawmanning your case. Strawmanning requires someone to actually take a piece of a case and attack it as invalid, incorrectly concluding that all other pieces are invalid also.

What he is doing is more the "Ostrich head in the sand" approach where he ignores it completely in hopes it goes away.

That said both methods are pretty bad responses.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't believe I've ever seen Starbuck as scum, let me go check on that.

Did you actually check on this? If so what results did you find?

I don't really find Jack that scummy for refusing to answer the questions, it serves him no purpose as either alignment and seems a personality quirk than anything to do with his alignment.

What Pro-town purpose is there for any town player to ignore repeated direct questions made of him / her? If you are going to defend Jack’s play as personality quirk you need to be able to provide a motive for his behavior that isn’t scummy or anti-town.

@Liam – Your return from low activity at 237 is to pop in and vote for the leading candidate with a list of generic comments that aren’t really scum-tells?

What do YOU think of my case against Jack?

224 – Although I think the linguistic gymnastics aren’t necessarily strong evidence the fact that Jack appears to be buddying up to Faraday just based on his experience / reputation is a good point IMO. It’s troubling for the same reason I found your peanut comments troubling.

225 – His lack of follow-through regarding my scumminess is at best anti-Town. I don’t necessarily believe that his statement at 187 is unclear.

You didn't answer my question.

You’ve lost any ability to call out anyone on answering questions when you repeatedly ignore those asked to you.

There are obvious benefits to leaving his case unanswered and I intend to take advantage of that.

None of those ‘obvious benefits’ has a Pro-town motive. The most obvious one I can see is that you can't defend your play so you choose to ignore.

Deadline is under 3 days away. Players who aren’t voting (Zang) or are not voting for Reaper need to decide if they will support the Reaper lynch or will support a viable alternate candidate (Jack appears, IMO, to be the next choice).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the game Ooba ... it was fun.

In hindsight my block on Jack was unwise, especially given that he would have been redirected to faraday who would have survived. Woulda coulda shoulda. Now that I've seen Jack in action I know his grandstanding "Anyone who interferes isn't Pro-town" is just his style.

Starbuck your constant flip-flopping on whether you did or didn't use your powers coupled with horrible arguments (PMing GM to see why Jack's kill flavor didn't show up, etc) doomed town. Not that as a SK you care.

As you can see in the QT I was way off on most of the scum-team (except Kdub).

Props to TNM for being the only voice saying that it was possible for me to have blocked Jack of my own will.