Mini 969 - Smalltown: Stardust Mafia (Game Over)

[Jack]

if the PYP games are anything to go by I'll do shockingly bad in this draft.

Nope, seems like PYP alums kick ass in the draft.

[Jack]

You can always tell who didn't quite understand the system by seeing who picked a Y number other than 1 or 2.

[Jack]

Mr. Bean gets bumped to the last spot :p

[Jack]

Mr. Bean--role absorber
Faraday--tracker

I'll take Humphrey, CPR doc.

[Jack]

Number 2 isn't a problem. They are still less likely to be targets for scum.

[Jack]

Who's the redirector?

[Jack]

Nevermind, I thought redirector was bus driver.

[Jack]

If the tracker lacks a better target they should follow the bodyguard. If the bodyguard is scum they will be tempted to go nowhere. The threat of them being tracked may force them to go somewhere, and possibly be killed.

[Jack]

That would potentially be good for the town.

It doesn't seem like a useful ability for scum of any kind. I guess the mafia could protect a better powered one of their own, but it doesn't really seem that worth it.

[Jack]

Have you always wanted to be a hot blond chick, Charlie?

[Jack]

That was my intention when I took it. Don't really get the point of the protect thing.

[Jack]

But if I tried to kill his partner (who I would obviously suspect) and the bodyguard died instead and flipped mafia, there would be a high chance of his partner getting lynched or vigged in the near future. While the bodyguard himself may not be under suspicion at all.

[Jack]

Tracker is good. I doubt I'll be confidant enough in the guilt of two people to want to vig twice.

Bodyguard is interesting, it could allow them to protect two roles.

[Jack]

vote:magnaofillusion

Yes, I'm sure you really had to check another window to make sure of that...I remembered it from reading over the opening posts a couple times while thinking about what I wanted to pick/how the system works. Sounds like you are afraid of someone saying you are overly acquainted with the SK role pm.

[Jack]

It isn't flawed if faraday is a townie, which he probably is. That makes it very powerful and better than most other choices for motivator. Wasn't thinking about the SK part of it when I said "tracker is good".

When you said he couldn't be tracked I remembered it right away, no need to "check in another window". Were you or weren't you adding that bit so that it didn't look like you had intimate knowledge of the SK role pm?

[Jack]

I didn't pay any attention to that part.

You didn't say whether you were adding the bit on purpose, to emphasize that you didn't have intimate knowledge of the SK role pm.

[Jack]

More generally, what is the purpose of your "counterattack" questions?

[Jack]

I think it's a scumtell, yeah. I've seen scum do it. Obviously, the reverse is another common scum tell--people get jumped on for saying something about a scum role even when it was in the OP. So townies will point out that they got it from the OP. I don't find the way he wrote his out to be innocent sounding, but more importantly I think his backlash against me and failed explanation don't sound like they come from a townie.

94--he says the bit about checking in another window
95--I vote him, pointing out that since I remembered that the SK was untrackable without having to check, it seemed likely that he didn't really have to check, and thus said the bit about checking purely because he was worried
96--He claims I am lying and tries to say that tracking is useless

And so on, basically if you read over his comments towards me and then read this bit:

More generally, what is the purpose of your "counterattack" questions?

I’m trying to decide if you really believe the crap you are spouting here or are trying some poorly devised reaction fishing.

This is clearly false...he says he thinks I either

a) believe my argument (in which case I am town)
or
b) poorly devised reaction fishing, aka scumhunting (also implies town-ness, certainly not an accusation).

But his initial reaction to my post was to say that I was lying about remembering the SK couldn't be tracked because I didn't mention it in response to kdub's post. And he's tried to push that point in all of his follow up posts. So his claimed reason for attacking me is to see whether I'm town or if I'm reaction fishing, but his actual attacks are aimed at painting me as scum.

His argument along that line is bad too--tracker is a powerful role regardless of whether the SK can be tracked (which magna now says in his latest post "best way to go" in contrast to his earlier statement "completely flawed").

Finally, other people have made the same type of argument on him, and he has not lashed back. Doesn't he want to see if they really believe their arguments?

[Jack]

Vote: Peanutman

because he's a food-stuff with multiple lives.

[Jack]

fos:peanutman

Vote using same reasoning as other people, bunch of IIoA.

tsk tsk: Reaper

for the last post

[Jack]

You just put someone on your town list for a post in which they:

1) voted someone based on things that had been said repeatedly (and were BASED on zang saying he thought two people were town without saying why (except he did later which you haven't))
2) doing a bunch of analysis which is fine and all but pads out the post which is lacking on the scumhunting front

[Jack]

Having played with zang before I haven't seen anything to make me think he's scum.

I skim read that set of giant posts above. Will post again soon explaining why magna is scum.

[Jack]

It's possible that magna is town and simply jumps on the rhetoric-train for no good reason.

@magna: it was inconsequential to whether the tracker should be motivated

[Jack]

Yes. I very much buy that that is how Zang was using the term town vs town.

[Jack]

Not sarcasm. That was what I was thinking he meant before he said that was what he meant.

People are very often confused by definitions. I would argue that you are misusing "backtracking" in your accusation of Zang, based on his misuse of "town vs town".

[Jack]

RC is killing me with his wallposts and I don't feel up to reading that + rereading magna right now.

[Jack]

Have all of reapers cases been this bad?

[Jack]

Reaper, I have a question for you.

[Jack]

What was all that nonsense about?

[Jack]

You didn't answer my question.

And you don't know what active lurking is. Or strawmanning. Or you're just throwing them out there because they sound damning.

[Jack]

charter doesn't know what a strawman is either.

Reapers arguments are as bad as strawmen though I'll give you guys that. There are obvious benefits to leaving his case unanswered and I intend to take advantage of that.

[Jack]

What's bad about my argument?

What is good about this:

But then only a few posts later he backtracks and says magna is

probably

town:

It's

possible

that magna is town and simply jumps on the rhetoric-train for no good reason.

[Jack]

Deadline is good enough. I'll post in a minute.

The fact that there's a wagon on Charlie explains his ridiculous arguments, he's desperate. Kdub, lynch on him plus vig from me takes care of him.

charter is probably scum since he knows me better than he's letting on.

[Jack]

It isn't flawed if faraday is a townie, which he probably is. That makes it very powerful and better than most other choices for motivator.

He says

Faraday is probably a townie

. Which is always odd at this early point in the game, admittedly I've done it myself. But it's especially odd because, at this point, Faraday's entire posting record ONLY INCLUDED the following:

Faraday is probably a townie because there are 8 townies and 4 scum. The context was in talking about the general strategy of who to motivate, not about the posts of a player.

Now, normally, I wouldn't say anything about this, because I did it myself (called peanutman town after only a very few posts). But I think the way I said it was key: I said "RC's Town List" which meant it was my opinion.

He called peanutman town after one post, that was bad. The way he said it which was "key" is the bad way to say it. Since he was talking about the in thread behavior.

But what Jack said was "if Faraday is a townie, which he probably is" which has 3 conceivable (and likely measurable) effects:

1. due to the backwards way in which the sentence was constructed, players could easily not comprehend what they're reading. this in turn could subliminally direct their supposition about Faraday's alignment. I don't think that he thought of that, but it definitely works out this way in hindsight. (Not to mention, I've realized that this is why I missed it the first time).

Did anyone actually read this garbage? The sentance was backwards in some complicated ploy to subliminally brainwash the town, but I

didn't

think it would do that when I wrote it? So even if the psuedo-psychology stuff was true, I'm not scummy for it? Unless it was my scummy subconscious manifesting itself in the subliminal brainwashing ploy of course.

2. the way he says it, he's not just trying to inform people that it's his own opinion, like I did with peanutman. He's just putting it right out there that Faraday is probably a townie. Not quite fact, but not quite his opinion. This looks scummy too.

8 townies 4 mafia.

3. One of Jack's 5 previous posts was a vote on him. I've seen numerous times that a townie (player X) has suspected scum (player Y), and then the scum somehow flip it around and say "player X is town because of such and such" and then all of a sudden like magic, X doesn't suspect Y nearly as much any longer. It's a clever trick for the following reason: if X is trying to scumhunt more because he feels the need to prove himself as a townie, he is looking for approval. He has a subconscious need to respect the opinion of everyone who calls him town, and then when a scum player calls him town, his opinion of that scummer automatically raises because he trusts that person's opinion about himself. Not the oldest trick in the book, but it's always been a good one, and works even on non-newbies.

You mean one of Faradays posts. And it was a RVS vote. So there was no townie player suspecting a scum player. Which is the basis for this long rambling paragraph.

This irks me for two reasons, the obvious one about Zang (doesn't think he's scummy, even though a lot of others seem to)

Why on earth would it irk you that I don't think Zang is scummy even though a lot of others seem to? That's an "obvious reason"? Did you really want a Zang mislynch, and my lack of support "irks you"?

But then only a few posts later he backtracks and says magna is probably town:

It's possible that magna is town and simply jumps on the rhetoric-train for no good reason.

Possible is not probably. Reaper is just making these arguments up. Some townies habitually use scummy rhetoric in self defense like Magna was doing. That is a

possible

explanation of what I found scummy about Magna.

This statement is clearly worded in a way that could be grossly misread as sarcasm; I think the post was intended to be suggestive of sarcasm, possibly so that he could backtrack either way about Zang later on, if he needed to in order to look innocent.

No, I have been rather vocal and committed in my defense of zang. None of his posts are suspicious. My past experience playing with him is why I feel that way, as town he hammered scummily with an ISO that was a basic summary with no analysis, it got him lynched the next day, he sounded just like this.

*****************

Scum team is Reaper--charter--kdub. More in a minute.

[Jack]

I've played like one game with you and your play there was about ten times more protown. How do I "know you better than I'm letting on"? How is that scummy of me?

This is getting ridiculous at how obvscum Jack is.

You've played two games with me and in both of them I

blatantly and repeatedly

refused to answer questions questions.

********

"obvious reasons for not responding to case" I left out the explanation for this. Clearly faulty cases like Reapers are a good test for scum. Does a normally insightful player hold off comment to see if the wagon will go through?

******

I have kdub as scum for setting up his vote with the "jack is vig, reaper is revivor" bit. It's laughable to dismiss the idea of lynching the revivor because it will take to shots to kill him.

Charter in the next post sounds like he's urging a scumbuddy to vote.

I probably made myself look silly by trying to name the whole scum team but I'm pretty pleased about it.

[Jack]

I've played like one game with you and your play there was about ten times more protown.

I forgot--

I WAS PUT AT L-1 AND DAYVIGGED BY PAGE 4 IN THAT GAME.

charter is scum.

[Jack]

Avatar mafia in coney island if you want to check.

[Jack]

Put at L-1 and dayvigged, for, I might add, deliberately not answering a question to see what reactions I got. Which charter claims to think is super suspicious this game.

It's a game I like to play.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:reapercharlie

Very good. I will kill him tonight. Anyone interfering with that is obvscum.

I would highly recommend that the bodyguard protect the one-shot sensor, and that the one shot sensor use their ability. The merits of saving it seem limited, and I think we have a good chance of catching most of the scum outside this wagon.

[Jack]

I targeted RC.

There was no pro-town reason for anyone to interfere with my kill. If anyone did, they should say so.

[Jack]

The plurality meaning since I have to choose two people in order for it to work.

No, it means you scumslipped pretty bad.

Since I

really

doubt Magna chose to block me, there are only three ways for my kill to have missed:

You redirected magna's block to me
You redirected my kill to magna and double kills aren't shown
You redirected my kill to charter, who commuted (less likely).

It's telling that starbuck said nothing about the "no role could have interfered with jack's kill" comments (and that they were made).

Vote:Starbuck

[Jack]

Jack, you can verify my role on the first page.

There's no scumslip at all.


You just are trying to jump at the first thing that looks scummy to you because you know you are in hot water.

Vote: Jack

What do you mean I can "verify your role on the first page"? I was saying you were the redirector. What does that answer?

Ask Zang about the 2nd part. I figured you as scum when I saw the kill missed.

Oh hey, Jack confessed to being scum. He lists the scenario of Starbuck redirecting his vig to Magna, whose death flavor makes me pretty sure he was killed by mafia, but didn't mention being redirected to Faraday. Whether Starbuck is a SK or not, it has no bearing on the need to lynch Jack today and Zang tomorrow when he flips scum.

You're either mafia or the biggest failure at town I've seen in a while. The mafia are the witches and faraday was blown up by a blast of magic. So Magna was the SK kill.

Mafia:
Starbuck
Reaper
Charter (I hope)

SK:
kbub

I think these are all the people voting me, but that's not omgus or coincidence. They were mafia yesterday too, the mafia always see me as a lynch target, I'm the vig and calling them mafia, and only mafia are going to jump on "no kill, jack is mafia!" like it isn't obviously silly.

[Jack]

And charter is mostly on there because he's annoying me.

[Jack]

I switched the SK kill and mafia kill in my head, but the point holds true. You only considered your kill being redirected to Magna, not Faraday. This is because you killed Faraday.

Reaper is scum, so SB saving him means they are scumbuddies, and thus not SK. The mafia would not redirect my kill to the person they killed.

Really just waiting on Groupthink to come and claim and then lynch Jack, then Zang, then I forget who the third scum was.

Did you seriously spout all that bullshit above and top it off by talking about how there are three scum? As if you are talking from the SK perspective?

[Jack]

While we should definitely wait to hear from everyone, this seems like a pretty straightforward situation. If we believe that Magna would not have blocked Jack (and even Jack doesn't think he would have), then clearly one of Jack/Starbuck are lying. If Jack is town (or even if he is the SK, who wouldn't be lying here), then Starbuck is almost certainly scum, and there's a good chance that Charlie is scum as well.

The best plan for town is to lynch starbuck and have me vig reaper. Now, I would like someone (preferably someone voting me) to argue that it is better to lynch me because it is dangerous to give the mafia another kill.

*****

I think it is almost certain that magna's block was redirected to me. The couldn't have redirected my kill to one of the two dead (because then there would have been no kill). However, if someone knows that they were blocked, they should speak up.

[Jack]

Reaper, some advice for you if you get a scum role again. If this game had more good active townies, they would literally laughing out loud at how blatantly bad your scummy arguments are. I'm not laughing because I don't like wading through bullshit.

Why would Starbuck redirect magna to you? Listen up, scumboy. Starbucks voting history includes: charter, zang, then me. Why would she (knowing magna was a blocker) redirect him to block you, if she was VOTING FOR ME? That kind of implies that she WANTS ME DEAD. So what you're suggesting DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Yes, as scum it would make sense for her not to claim her actions, but then again, perhaps she was v/la as she said she'd be. I assume she didn't expect the day to end so quickly. But then again, you were the one who made sure it did, weren't you?

Why would YOUR SCUMBUDDY stop the VIG from KILLING YOU? I don't know, my brain is too tiny to figure that out.

It would appear that you just got caught in your own lie (that you were going to kill me last night), and now you're trying to find any possible avenue to cover your arse.

Why would I say that I was going to kill you and then not do it?

Also, I notice from re-reading your initial skirmish (posts 95-100) on MoI that you seem quite eager to pin the SK role on someone. Is that either because you don't want the label on yourself? Or because you're mafia scum and you are mostly interested in finding the SK because after that killing off the town will be easy with your double night-kill?

Because he did a weird thing where he made a point of how he had to check the PM, that was a link to the SK.

Does anyone actually read this stuff and not think it's retarded? Reaper is accusing me of being mostly interested in finding the SK, but I dropped MoI and have been going hard for reaper, charter, kdub, and today starbuck...the majority of my arguments have been about scumteams.

You couldn't possibly have known that then. This is a much worse 'slip' than Starbuck's 'abilities' slip.

No. You already tried this argument:

Faraday is probably a townie because there are 8 townies and 4 scum. The context was in talking about the general strategy of who to motivate, not about the posts of a player.

Your reply was this:

1. How does the ratio of town/scum mean that Faraday is a townie?

Which is more of your inability to tell the difference between possible, probable, and definite. I would call you a VI if it weren't obvious that you genuinely think you are being cunning scum manipulating the town.

Also, reaper, this contradicts the previous part of your post where you accused me of hunting the SK. If I was scum I wouldn't know that faraday was not the SK. You are accusing me of knowing faraday is a townie in a game where scum don't know if someone is a townie.

[Jack]

Now, I would like someone (preferably someone voting me) to argue that it is better to lynch me because it is dangerous to give the mafia another kill.

I think it's a fair argument to make. Suppose you are scum and Starbuck is town, and we lynch Starbuck today. Then she would flip town, revealing you as scum. With Starbuck gone, there are absolutely no roles that could prevent you from using your ability on whoever you want, and you will be lynched tomorrow anyway. So it does give the mafia another kill. The reverse situation (you town, Starbuck scum, we lynch you today) isn't nearly as bad for the town. Now, that argument has nothing to do with how likely you are to be scum, which needs to be taken into account as well. I think it's entirely fair to consider the risk/reward aspect though when deciding who to lynch.

Yes. You would also have to consider that if Starbuck is scum, she has no reason not to redirect the bodyguard and kill the sensor tonight.

But the reason I said that was because I now want you to say why you think I didn't kill last night--since having an extra kill is so good for mafia.

Jack is obviously scum. Tries to invent a slip from Starbuck, lied about his choice of actions last night and is flailing badly today. The only way Jack is telling the truth is if Starbuck is lying about her V\LA and frankly I don't think she's that kind of player.

I'd be perfectly happy lynching Jack today and then refocussing on RC the next day because Jack has actually made some good comments and the reasons we had for wanting RC dead on D1 haven't gone anywhere. That's my main issue with the game state as is.

a)You might be the only one who doesn't understand the slip
b) you don't think Starbuck is the kind of player who would lie? Or that partners can send in actions?
c) What's with this:

Jack is

obviously scum

...and is

flailing badly today.

refocussing on RC the next day because Jack has actually

made some good comments

I see

no reason either SK or Mafia

would want a town RC alive.

[Jack]

But the reason I said that was because I now want you to say why you think I didn't kill last night--since having an extra kill is so good for mafia.

It's a bit of a different situation because you weren't obviously scum yesterday, which you would be if we lynched Starbuck and saw her flip town. If you had killed anyone else last night, you would be auto-lynched today. You could have wanted to keep Charlie alive for a mislynch today (either because he is your buddy or because you would have looked bad if he flipped town) and were planning to claim being blocked, but didn't expect the SK to kill Magna.

Liam, who did you target last night?

I was planning to claim being blocked, but didn't expect the SK to eliminate the person who would counterclaim me? Except with the redirector I don't see how any of this makes sense.

You say I either

a) kept charlie alive for a mislynch today because hes my buddy--> this is contradictory
b) kept him alive because I would have looked bad if he flipped town...but I look bad because of the no kill

If I was scum with an extra kill, why would I not do my best to stay alive? Where does this assumption that I chose to paint a target on myself come from? Yesterday I said "RC IS OBVSCUM", named a scum team with proposed partners, guaranteed that I would target RC and warned everyone against interfering. There is no way a townie vig does not target RC after saying that.

[Jack]

charter is an idiot. The one shot sensor doesn't work if the lynchee self hammers, and if the bodyguards protection target was attacked the bodyguard would be dead.

We need Starbuck to stop being absent and post a rundown of the game. Who all do you think is scum Starbuck?

[Jack]

If I am lynched, the sensor will die tonight. The bodyguard will be redirected.

@kdub: unless someone had claimed to be blocked. There would be no way for me to count on someone not having a claim to back them. Either starbuck or magna's targets could have counterclaimed in the case of a no kill.

[Jack]

If I am lynched, the sensor will die tonight. The bodyguard will be redirected.

Mmmmmmm, I bet that's a tasty WIFOMsandwich™ you're munching.

I guess we can add "wifom" to the list of things that you don't know the definition of.

And Starbuck was V/LA, so how could she have redirected you? (unless she was lying about being V/LA and lying again about not being around to use her actions?)

and, why would you say you'd kill me then not do it?:

It's called lying.

It's what scum do. And it's what you did.

Bolding is

yours

btw.

Bottom line: We must assume numerous things and blindly believe your imaginative explanation of events (which is quite a stretch, at best) in order to get even a hint at thinking you're town.

Even when all evidence points to the opposite.

The numerous things we must assume:
1) starbuck lied
2) ...
3) ...???

Now assuming starbuck lied, and did block my kill to save you, how is that just "a hint" that I'm town?

By "all evidence" I assume you mean all the BS that I made fun of you for in my last post that you replied to with the "it's called lying, it's what scum do" post? Since you (apparently) no longer believe that scum lie, what now?

Please tell me english is not your first language.

[Jack]

Scum (either maf or sk):
Starbuck
kdub
totallynotmafia
reaper

[Jack]

TNM is on there for blatant horrible waffling. charter is next up after those 4.

[Jack]

Jack's suspicious are just OMGUS. They change every time someone else says he's scum.

I just put TNM on their for waffling you blithering idiot.

I also suspect the person who is lying about not redirecting my kill, and the person they saved.

If you're town you're a ****** moron and getting vigged if we play again.

This has to be the laziest town I've played with in a while. We have a 1v1, and three people are not voting.

Also, Jack, what part of the world do you live in?

EDT

[Jack]

If Jack is town, we should try to get the likely scum (Starbuck, Charlie) in the other group.

Starbuck-scum can redirect the bodyguard and kill the sensor.

kdub. You know that I know you are the SK. But I'm more interested in wiping out the mafia, kind of a personal grudge. How about we lynch starbuck, I kill reaper, you kill me, and the sensor helps nail the remaining mafia. And then you can talk your way to the endgame, at that point you will probably be the only person talking.

[Jack]

Also we need to get two people to hammer Jack when he's not going to be online, so he can't self hammer and make the sensor useless. One to put him at L-1 and the other to hammer.

Do you SERIOUSLY still not understand how that role works? If you are town, replace out in shame please. Hell, if you're scum replace out in shame.

It's self voting that makes it useless, not self hammering. If I was scum I could self vote right now and make the sensor useless.

[Jack]

kdub. You know that I know you are the SK. But I'm more interested in wiping out the mafia, kind of a personal grudge. How about we lynch starbuck, I kill reaper, you kill me, and the sensor helps nail the remaining mafia. And then you can talk your way to the endgame, at that point you will probably be the only person talking.

Aside from you being wrong, this post is particularly anti-town. The fact that you claim to be putting a personal grudge ahead of your supposed town win condition reeks of desperation tactics since it appears popular opinion is against you. Maybe you honestly do think that I am the SK, but you offering this "deal" to help the town lose to a particular faction is not something a town player would be doing.

What on earth are you talking about? The "deal" involves lynching mafia, and then killing mafia, instead of being lynched myself (=town lose given what I've seen so far).

[Jack]

If anyone self votes, they're automatically scum, Jack.

I assume you still think you can wiggle your way out of a lynch

, so you're not confessing to be scum by self voting.

Just because I'm trying to avoid a mislynch doesn't mean I have any illusions about how successful it is going to be. See teleporter mafia.

[Jack]

On reflection, I think I'm confusing myself by insisting on the SK label for kdub. He could just be regular scum, and one of the other guys could be the SK.

[Jack]

No starbuck I see. She's been posting on site though.

The con of starbuck being left alive if she is scum is that we don't get a result from the sensor. Bodyguard is redirected, sensor is killed. I've said this several times, but scum are pretending not to notice.

the con of jack being left alive if he is scum is that he will kill someone tonight. If he is SK, that is 3/8 chance of hitting mafia. If scum, 1/6 chance at hitting SK. Assuming he, for some reason, isn't trying for the SK to save his scumbuddies from the cross kill. Also a chance of a no kill + doc protect due to cpr ability but I can't be bothered to calculate that.

Also starbuck is blatantly just sitting and waiting for me to be lynched.

[Jack]

Jack:
Under your hypothetical scenario where I am the SK and you are town, you were offering me a deal in which we lynch Starbuck, you kill Charlie, and I kill you just to spite the mafia because of some personal grudge. How is that deal pro-town in any way?

Because in this scenario charlie is mafia. And it's easily 5 times better than me being lynched. 2 dead mafia is pro town.

And one thing I didn't think of earlier, you were asking why you, as scum, would not have killed someone last night. The question could

easily be asked

as to why scum-Starbuck would not simply have redirected YOU to another player last night to get an extra death. It would still set up a 1v1 today, except with (likely) an extra player dead.

That question could easily be asked but that doesn't make it equivalent, nor does it answer the first question.

You have a point with Starbuck=scum means that the sensor can be killed. There is still the possible WIFOM factor of Starbuck leaving Groupthink alive though because of the mere possibility that Groupthink is scum. I'll have to think about that a bit more, but we shouldn't automatically assume the loss of the sensor if you are town and Starbuck is not.

Eh? What's the real wifom factor though?

[Jack]

Starbuck has been posting a bunch in other games, check msutils.net

[Jack]

Jack not killing RC seems the most likely to me. He wouldn't kill RC as scum since it would force us to lynch RC again and waste yet another day. Plus, when RC flips town (and he's going to) it would reflect poorly on Jack.

This is a multi-scum group game. Even if you believe RC is a townie, what makes you think I do?

And my kill of him would be perfectly excused, because even if he's a townie we need the day1 flip for reference.

[Jack]

If RC is the Serial Killer, he's doing a bad job of avoiding suspicion on himself.

Is this supposed to be an argument that he isn't the Serial Killer? It isn't. Why am I scum instead of the serial killer btw?

The basis of your argument is that I knew RC was town, and didn't want to look bad by killing him (instead I would try and lynch him again). But no matter what I look bad by not killing him, and if I killed him and he was scum I would look very good.

[Jack]

But you're scum, so you know he isn't going to flip scum. If RC by some miracle flips SK, then you're in the exact same boat. You're still scum. You didn't kill, because it wastes another day. That is of more benefit to you than killing him.

See charter, I asked you

a) why you think I'm scum and not the SK
b) how would I, as scum, know that RC was town

You ignore that completely...

If people reread day two, it's extremely apparent that Jack is scum. This is also the last time I'm going to respond to any of Jack's stuff, unless he comes up with some legitimate points, and not more fuel for him being scum, since this has just degenerated into a shouting contest.

And complain about it being a shouting contest?

[Jack]

Fine, I'll just be direct and ask Jack the question then. If you are town and Starbuck is scum, why do you think she did not simply redirect you to another player last night?

Redirecting me would mean that I would know for sure that she was scum. Redirecting magna to block me both prevents him from blocking one of the mafia (or giving the absorber roleblocking) and has the possibility that I would accuse him of blocking me and he would deny it, and people would trust that she'd been absent. Not a particularly good plan, but we aren't talking about good plans, just bad and worse.

I agree with Charlie in post 395. My past experience with Starbuck tells me that she would not lie about V/LA, and definitely wouldn't fake RL issues.

She's lied about not having time for this game: msutils.net

And partners can often submit abilities--I don't know ooba's mod history on this issue though.

[Jack]

Ugh, even with the awfulness of magna's block and my lynch, the town had this game in the palm of their hand. 2 claimed scum, 1 revealed by the sensor, and kdub was basically revealed too imo by virtue of his motivated the networker. But I guess magna's block came back to bite us because it made it look like starbuck was caught in an obvious lie.

[Jack]

Not you....Jack.

You

were

scum though. And you would have revealed yourself if I hadn't been blocked since my kill would have been redirected.

[Jack]

Oh, you mean like think outside the box that Magna actually DID block him? lolol

I still don't believe magna blocked me :/

[Jack]

Dude, the town blew yesterday. All 3 scum were the first 3 to vote me. It took TWO TOWNIES to do the rest.

Open your eyes. That's nothing but the truth.

Yeah, that was pretty obvious in the dead QT:

scum:
kdub
zang
reaper

One two three on the lynch? No reason why not.

But magna's block clinched it. Nothing you could do about that really. Zang would have been a better lynch, since I don't think three was a big chance of groupthink revealing himself to save you as the scumbuddy. But if we assumed that magna didn't block me, then it looked like you were caught out in a lie with the claim to have redirected me to faraday.

Problem was, by day two the only really active townies were me and charter. CLM, GroupThink, fitz and tnm were all kind of fence sitting or playing in the background.

[Jack]

Yeah, if you think about it, town lynched scum two days out of three.

[Jack]

Yeah, n1 was funny. With no block, faraday would have survived the kill and starbuck would have been revealed as scum (track result). If the sensor had submitted his action, there would have been only 1 scum on the lynch.

Faraday
peanut
charter
reaper
kdub

Were off the lynch. Faraday would have been proven non mafia, and we would be trusting peanut provisionally. I'm pretty sure I would have killed reaper that night and called for a kdub lynch.