Mini 962 - Mafia In Murrieta - Over!

[wolframnhart]

Even though he still has 4 hours before the posting at least once every 48 hours rule I am doing a pre-emptive strike and prodding TheGeckoJ

[Espeonage]

Ok here, will make a post in a sec.

[charter]

I voted Jack for misrepresentation. How is this a poor vote?

His misrep wasn't going to fly. I really doubt he was sitting in his chair thinking 'hmmm, what can I come up with that looks good to throw at Kerrigan'. I don't see any possible scum motivation for him to try and pull that misrep, I think it was a mistake. Doesn't tell on his alignment one way or the other. So you voting him over that is why I think it's a poor vote.

[Espeonage]

@fitz. I really am very sad everyone is pissed off with me. You really are quite scummy. That little case made on me was the worst thing added to my case and i really don't think that was neccessary. You wou have made a better impression by saying that you agree with the already stated case.

Responding to case

I said I was fencesitting because I was, am. Why do you look for a post when it is uneeded. If I have nothing to add then i have nothing to add and if you insist on me making a post then that is creating more mud everyone has to wade through to actually ghet to the point of everything that is going on.

The main reason i don't like reading long posts is becausze i only get to play this while in lectures and free time. Seeing as I have alot of that but not usually all in one go means that while I may be active I don't have the time to read such long posts.

A little suggestion

And would it be so hard for people to make subheadings in their posts so that people can find what they want to from your posts. If you are going to write an essay you need your topic sentances. Otherwise people can and will get lost.

And a little conclusion.

I really do think that fitz is scum. I really am on the fence in the great debates of this game and really can't be stuffed wasting my spare time reading the same points being made over and over. If it was a study break I would spend some time reading but sadly it isn't. And don't use that as a reason to say i shouldn't play because I can play just fine with the time I have. It just becomes difficult when people make things harder than they really should be.

[charter]

Espionage, do you have anything to say about the reasons people are voting you?

[Espeonage]

Did you read my post. There is a little subheading there for your convenience.

In short. Yes and I already said it.

[JackALope2323]

A fence explaining your fence sitting is NOT unneeded.

PLEASE, explain to us WHY you're fence sitting. Is that THAT hard? Tell us about the reads you're getting on people, ( And don't tell us you aren't getting ANY reads what-so-ever, either.) and why these reads make you fence sit.

That explains your inability (Or indesire to, depending on how you look at it) to read long posts. It does not excuse it.

You could, you know, read the entire post. And this isn't an essay. Just because you're in college doesn't mean everything else has to be like college.

If you can't waste your spare time playing Mafia, why in the HELL did you sign up for a game in the first place, KNOWING that you won't have enough spare time that you WANT to use in order to play a game?

NO YOU CANNOT PLAY JUST FINE WITH THE TIME YOU HAVE. YOU CANNOT READ POSTS. YOU CANNOT MAKE STATEMENTS. YOU CANNOT PLAY MAFIA THE WAY YOU ARE CURRENTLY DOING SO. WE ARE NOT MAKING THINGS HARDER THAN THEY REALLY SHOULD BE. I HATE TO MAKE SO MANY ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS AT ONCE, BUT FFS, MAN.

Mod, is there any possibility of a forced replacement?

By a vote of players, or something? Anything?

[Espeonage]

I am fencesitting because I have nothing to add. I have said that three times. Ok I have enough time. I could read whole posts but I choose not to. I have the time but as i said it is in little brackets and I want to do other things. If I deem it to be inhibiting my ability to play then I will either replace out myself or take more time. I have never had this difficulty before this game. My playing times haven't changed either. That tells me that this is an isolated case with alot of heavy posters not that I need to stop playing.

[cruelty]

I think JackALope is town. The last few posts it seems like he genuinely believes his cases on SK and havingfitz.

ice already addressed this, but somehow SAMP has slipped under my radar, so i decided to check out his iso and stumbled across this (which is probably his most standout moment).

the obvious problem is twofold.

first; "it seems like". a good scum player will be trying to get you to believe in his pure motivations. it concerns me that you said this, i'd think (hope) you'd be looking a bit deeper into these posts rather than blindly accepting what's being said on the face of things.

second; "genuinely believes his cases". this is as the above, but genuinely believing in a case isn't a) town (there could be a third party in play) and b) relevant criteria for judging the merits of someone as town.

[havingfitz]

Fitz, scummy as well. I don't think he's looking for scum, just pretending to.

I did not realize you thought I was scummy. Interesting that you only mention it two posts after I point to you and espionage as players I need to look at more closely.

Does this opinion regarding non-contribution also apply to Scott or Gecko who also have said little of substance?

There are several players who have contributed minimally. Some due to post count and some due to not saying anything when they do post. There may even be some that fall under both categories but none come to mind. Scott and gecko have posted a limited amount of times but when reading through...what they were saying did not strike me as suspicious (whether their posts were one or two lines or a few paragraphs). I’m not as inclined to suspect people based solely on post count and put more weight in what they are saying (unless they are actively lurking). So no...my opinion on espionage does not apply to Scott and gecko...which is by no means meant to indicate I do not find either of them a bit suspicious...it’s just that espeonage is at the top of my list.

Why is espeonage on the top of my list? Because he has been one of the most active posters in this game but has not said anything worthwhile. He has an initial pressure vote on me followed with confirmation of his vote because of my vote (w/ reasoning) on Jack...which he deemed as OMGUS even though Jack had only mentioned me briefly and had no vote or FoS on me...only frustration over my limited posts ATT (and that is OMGUS how?). Everything else he is on the fence about and he can’t be bothered to read the game although he does have the same amount of time to contribute as he has in previous games. For some reason this game is just different. ??

On the subject of contribution...what has happened to AGM?

@fitz. I really am very sad everyone is pissed off with me. You really are quite scummy. That little case made on me was the worst thing added to my case and i really don't think that was neccessary. You wou have made a better impression by saying that you agree with the already stated case.

Why are you sad at me (AtE?)? I only have one of the four votes on you. And what do you mean my case was the worst thing added? Doesn’t the fact I am voting you imply that I agree with the others voting you? Do I need new material? You aren’t giving me a lot to work with which is the point.

Also...why am I scummy again? I’m ok with people thinking I’m scummy...it’s part of the game. At one point or the other I will probably suspect everyone in this game. I just appreciate the associated rationale.

Responding to case

I said I was fencesitting because I was, am. Why do you look for a post when it is uneeded. If I have nothing to add then i have nothing to add and if you insist on me making a post then that is creating more mud everyone has to wade through to actually ghet to the point of everything that is going on.

The main reason i don't like reading long posts is becausze i only get to play this while in lectures and free time. Seeing as I have alot of that but not usually all in one go means that while I may be active I don't have the time to read such long posts.

If you are town...this logic is of no benefit to the other townies. IMO it would be best to remove (aka lynch) you because your play makes you very suspicious...and if you are town...you are never going to be the NK, IMO, because you are so scummy and the remaining town will always be uncertain about you (based at least on what I have seen from you this day).

A little suggestion

And would it be so hard for people to make subheadings in their posts so that people can find what they want to from your posts. If you are going to write an essay you need your topic sentances. Otherwise people can and will get lost.

Seriously? You want us to write papers for your easy review? Put some effort into the game please.

And a little conclusion.

I really do think that fitz is scum. I really am on the fence in the great debates of this game and really can't be stuffed wasting my spare time reading the same points being made over and over. If it was a study break I would spend some time reading but sadly it isn't. And don't use that as a reason to say i shouldn't play because I can play just fine with the time I have. It just becomes difficult when people make things harder than they really should be.

More AtE? I’m glad you have sufficient time to play despite evidence otherwise and look forward to your improved contribution during your remaining time in the game.

Mod, is there any possibility of a forced replacement?

By a vote of players, or something? Anything?

It’s called lynching. Doesn’t result in replacement but does get rid of suspect players.

[wolframnhart]

The GeckoJ has requested replacement so i will start looking now. Also no JackALope2323 there will be no forced replacement. Esp is posting just fine within the time limits given, if he wishes for replacement fine or if he receives too many prods or doesn't respond to one I will replace him, but he hasn't received one yet.

[wolframnhart]

Hoopla replaces TheGeckoJ. Welcome Hoopla and thank you!
Also I am prodding AGM.

[Scott Brosius]

My second choice for scum at the moment would be fitz.

Please expand on this suspicion. I see no comments at all in your ISO regarding fitz.

At the time, his participation was weak and part of his reason for his vote on jack was casting suspicions his way, which did not sit well with me. He's gotten better as of late.

[Hoopla]

Hello everyone, thanks for having me. To begin with;

Unvote, Vote: havingfitz

---

Espeonage

and

SaintKerrigan

are two of the leading vote getters currently. Could you both please summarize the major events of the game so far from your inidvidual perspectives. Thanks in advance.

[Hoopla]

Scott

, while you're here, can you give me your reasoning behind your Espeonage vote? Would you be prepared to lynch him now if the wagon grew? Who's your second choice?

[wolframnhart]

Vote Count #8

Havingfitz - Espeonage, Jack, Hoopla
TheGekoJ - AGM
Charter - SAMP
SaintKerrigan - Cruelty, ICEninja, Magna
Espeonage - Scott, SaintK, Charter, Havingfitz (L-3)

Not Voting: No one

Deadline is May 12th at 12 pm PDT
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Special Mod Note: Happy Birthday Hoopla!!

[SaintKerrigan]

Hey, Hoopla.

Basic story of the game so far (from my perspective): RVS comes and goes, and I get in a little controversy for unvoting someone who was random-voted to L-3 (nothing comes of it) Your predecessor gets in hot water for voting ICEninja using terribad reasoning. Fitz and Cruelty get called out for not doing much. Then I question Ice for a "scum point" (which he is denying is actually a scum point) that was basically a poorly-defined gut read, backing off after he said he wouldn't vote me on a gut read. I question Cruelty for not pursuing what I thought was a case on me, he votes me for misrepping him, and then through his explanation I realize what he was actually doing and unvote him (he's still voting me for misrepping, though).

After that, Ice starts questioning my questioning of the alleged scum point, accusing me of being jumpy and overly concerned with appearing town, eventually placing a vote on me for it. Jack takes that and tunnels in heavily on me (although he puts his vote on Fitz). His misreps me as a result and I vote him for that. I then change to Espeonage because he's actively staying out of the major debates (plus I'm not sure if Jack is tunneling scum or tunneling town). Ice doesn't believe any of my explanations and begins to show signs of tunneling as well. Magna joins the party and votes me, pretty much agreeing with my other detractors and starting up his own line of questioning. Meanwhile, Esp gets pushed to L-3 by other people.

That's pretty much how things look from my view.

In other news, Espeonage underwhelms in convincing me that his behavior is not scummy.

@ Ice: I agree that it's getting pointless to debate why my actions aren't scummy, since you aren't accepting any of my explanations and I'm don't buy your reasons for why it's scummy. So let me close with this: You're wrong, and if you lynch me you'll find that out.

Since you think I overreacted to Cruelty despite agreeing with me that Cruelty's behavior towards me at the time seemed suspicious, would you care to explain exactly how I was overreacting to Cruelty?

The overall read has nothing to do with it. The scum point and its hazy definition was what I was trying to clarify.

[SaintKerrigan]

And lolwat Fitz has 3 votes? Somehow that totally slipped under my radar. I'll have to look into that and see what's up.

[wolframnhart]

Sorry for the multiple mods posts today, but prodding SAMP

[AlmasterGM]

Gah, prodded again. I need to get it together. Post coming later today.

[Hoopla]

Vote Count #8

Havingfitz - Espeonage, Jack, Hoopla
TheGekoJ - AGM
Charter - SAMP
SaintKerrigan - Cruelty, ICEninja, Magna
Espeonage - Scott, SaintK, Charter, Havingfitz (L-3)

Not Voting: No one

Beautiful. I'm always very happy when Day 1 produces competing wagons, but allow me to clarify some of my positions;

I'm in favour of keeping charter, SAMP, ICEninja alive today, and to a degree Espeonage. With the exception of Espenoage, I have little interest in elaborating on these town reads, but suffice to say, I am naturally enamored with concise, aggressive and logical playstyles. These players don't necessarily individually tick every box, but they do enough to not make them viable lynches today.

Espeonage is a tough case -

individually

his posts produce a lot of weak scumtells that can be called on, but overall they somehow look town as a collective. The blatant fence sitting and not reading of posts isn't something that only happens as scum. I personally consider it a weak town tell, especially when it's behaviour shown over a long period of time. Scum have the built-in mindset of survival based play, and the simplest way to fulfill this goal is to place votes that are safe from challenges.

Espeonage doesn't fit this persona for me at all. I am far more suspicious of a couple of people on Espeonage, seeking to exploit the safe place to store a vote. Scott and havingfitz are the most guilty of this, although I am suspicious of SaintKerrigan for differing reasons. Please don't get me wrong, Espeonage's play is subpar, and I want him to improve, but it certainly looks far more like scum exploiting his bad play, than Espeonage's bad play because he is scum.

You'll note havingfitz uses a weak ISO case to justify his position, which individually produces a plethora of supposed scumtells, but you can spin anyone in a scummy light when you take things out of context. I really dislike this, and although it isn't explicitely scummy (because I know too many people who use this method for making cases), it is anti-town as it misrepresents what is actually happening.

Scott's reasoning (although I'm waiting for a more detailed answer) is weak, reeks of opportunism and is a very safe place to avoid questions because there is such an easy entry onto the wagon. He is also below the curve as far as posting goes, and has given minimal analytical insight into the game. He is the textbook model of active lurking, and I want to get his name in the ring, because he is not town enough to have NO votes. In fact he's probably my choice for lynch at the moment.

Here is a colour-coded vote count to visually represent my reads and why Espeonage is likely town;

Vote Count #8

Havingfitz

-

Espeonage

, Jack,

Hoopla

Hoopla

- AGM

Charter

-

SAMP

SaintKerrigan

- Cruelty,

ICEninja

, Magna

Espeonage

-

Scott

,

SaintK

,

Charter

,

Havingfitz

(L-3)

Not Voting: No one

Town/Prob Town

Leaning Town

Neutral/Unsure

Leaning Scum

Scum/Prob Scum

I doubt Scott, SaintKerrigan, havingfitz are all scum together piling onto Espeonage, but I think at least one being scum is a very safe guess. I think 1-2 scum in my neutral reads is also possible, but it's too early to be picking out the entire team. This map is more there just for visual representation of what I think is happening, and how the wagons are looking.

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: Scott Brosius

Updating my vote. I'm also appealing to the town to consider joining this wagon.

[ICEninja]

Fitz was actually starting to attract my attention to, but his post 259 makes me feel a lot better about him. That was a really well laid out case explaining your opinions on multiple people, and I agree that Espeonage is looking extremely suspicious.

My problem with the Espeonage wagon is it will probably fall apart should he put a decent case together against anyone.

Kerrigan, whoa whoa, so now you're calling my hazy scum READ on you (yes you've been using the word read all game) a scum POINT. These are 2 entirely different things. And no, me second guessing myself that you are town is not a scum point. I definitely don't do unexplained scum points. If I don't explain something, that's because it isn't worth explaining.

While I'm not going to use this as part of my case against Kerrigan, I would like to point out that this is usually the point in the game where scum tends to start jumping on to the leading mislynch wagon. The fact that kerrigan hasn't gotten any votes recently makes me feel good, because that means people are being hesitant about the case and need real convincing before they're willing to jump on.

Hoopla, (happy birthday!) care to explain your vote on fitz? It is bold font and extra large letters, but it seems out of place. There is no mention of him. Did you place a vote before reading through the thread fully?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, (happy birthday!) care to explain your vote on fitz? It is bold font and extra large letters, but it seems out of place. There is no mention of him. Did you place a vote before reading through the thread fully?

I has skimmed the thread, but I flicked through to find the latest vote count, which was a couple of pages ago, and saw havingfitz's awful post on Espeonage. Combined with a personal philosophy to encourage competing bandwagons (especially on D1), I thought it would be a good way to enter the game.

Also, there is mention of him in my 270, which should give you some insight into my logic. A significant chunk of that logic is thinking Espeonage is town, and that scum is pushing that wagon.

Up for helping out my Scott wagon, Mr. ICE?

[ICEninja]

Hoopla, you got your post off just before me, you said a lot of really good stuff that I would like to comment on.

That ISO thing you mentioned fitz doing on Espeonage was actually just him chopping up a single post in to different things to respond to. It was a pretty well laid out case that isn't terribly weak like you seem to suggest.

However, I have to agree with what you said about Espeonage's play not likely being indicative of scum. I disagree completely that it is a weak town tell, as town needs to contribute information to the game and get people lynched instead of fence sitting. Considering both your points and fitz's points, I'm more or less feeling that Espeonage is on the anti-town side of neutral. An unhelpful player that will likely make the game more difficult for town, but is difficult to feel like he's worthy of a lynch.

While I agree that you suggest Scott is active lurking, I only partially agree because of meta read. He's playing similarly to how he did in our last game together where he was town. However, if Scott really is town, then he would help us out a lot by giving us more opinions about players and what is going on. I currently have a neutral-ish read on him because his moderately anti-town play is somewhat evened out by my meta read on him. I'm really not feeling like he is deserving of a day 1 wagon.

Should Espeonage be killed and flip town, I'll be much more inclined to follow a Scott wagon.

If your Scott wagon doesn't follow through very well, who would you be targeting for a lynch instead?