Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Col.Cathart]

Pie_is_good replaces Kthnxbye. Thanks a lot!

No vote changes since last votecount.

[Thor665]

As someone who has read his posts in mafia discussion I'm not sure whether to be really intrigued or really scared by this news.

[Sotty7]

Thor why was it important to get Michel to state if he agrees with the people he replaced? I don't remember you asking any other replacement this, it seems kind of strange. I would rather hear Michel's own opinions on what went down.

For the second part of your question - then ask him. Certainly me asking him for his reads on his predecessors has very little to do with preventing you from asking him for his own reads. I don't even begin to understand your issue here. Also, his reads on his predecessor's actions *is* his own opinion.

For the first part - mostly just frustration with the replacements. I liked certain aspects of what Ythan had done and had town reads off of some of it. I wanted to see how Michel would react to it.

Frustration with the replacements I can understand. Copper, you and myself are all that is left of the original player list and that is just pathetic really.

My issue is that by asking Michel his opinions on the players he replaced kinda gives him a running start on the game something early and quick to comment to make him look active. It doesn't appear like he has actually read all the game either so I am not sure how he can agree or disagree with anything his predecessors have done, but that aside, it was strange that you would want to help him ease into the game and not others. It was just a strange feeling I got that I am finding hard to articulate, it twigged my gut.

That's not accurate in the slightest. Pom's wagon was brought about as a compromise lynch towards the very end of the day. How is that even close to resembling the case against Fate?

Pom was an easy lynch. Lurky, not scumhunting, pretty much an easy target. Fate's early posts today were pretty bizarre, but I'm afraid he's just another easy target. I actually find it pretty suspicious that Sotty unvoted TCC to vote Pom, and now she's voting Fate. Not really any good scumhunting at all coming from her. The three people I find most suspicious are currently voting Fate, so yeah, it looks like the easy wagon of day two.

I NEVER VOTED FOR TCC I CLEARED THAT UP IN MY LAST POST.

How did you miss that?

Also didn't you say that my case on Fate has some merit? How is that not good scum hunting?

[MichelSableheart]

Mod: Prod Socrates, please

I have now read the entire thread. Comparing my opinions to Locke's on day 2. Not much to comment on here:

I don't agree with his statement that the nightkill was probably supposed to not make much sense. I plan to actually look into the nightkill as part of my upcoming analysis.

I agree with his statement that Pome was more guilty of active lurking then CSL, but don't at this point in time belief that Pome was active lurking. I don't agree with Locke's claim that she knew Pome was taking Ray's meta out of context. Reading Ray's post on this topic, he said that all games Pome played with him were not relevant for his meta. However, Pome wouldn't have experience with Ray outside of those games, so would have no way to check whether his claims are correct.

My issue is that by asking Michel his opinions on the players he replaced kinda gives him a running start on the game something early and quick to comment to make him look active. It doesn't appear like he has actually read all the game either so I am not sure how he can agree or disagree with anything his predecessors have done, but that aside, it was strange that you would want to help him ease into the game and not others. It was just a strange feeling I got that I am finding hard to articulate, it twigged my gut.

When I say I agree/disagree, I'm stating how I feel about those actions in that context.

About my analysis: I unfortunately don't even have the time to make a start now. Hopefully later today, but I can't make guarantees, unfortunately.

[charter]

I NEVER VOTED FOR TCC I CLEARED THAT UP IN MY LAST POST.

How did you miss that?

That's a good question. That lessens suspicion on you quite a bit.

Also didn't you say that my case on Fate has some merit? How is that not good scum hunting?

I said the case on Fate has merit. The case on Fate is his inconsistencies with regard to his opinion on Socrates. He pretty much did that himself, no one did anything to get it out of him. I dunno, it just seems weak.

[Thor665]

@Sotty - I'm not sure I see what "twigged" your gut there. I do know that I asked questions to Saijin, HH, Kthx, and probably others when they replaced in (the Kthx one is in some ways a very functionally similar question to the Michel one since it asked for a read on a predecessor's action).

So either this isn't much of a tell for me (or a tell at all) or at least if it's a tell between Michel and I it's also probably a tell between Kthx and I and you can see if the vibe there is similar or different to what piece of wood is or is not in your gut.

[Pie_is_good]

As someone who has read his posts in mafia discussion I'm not sure whether to be really intrigued or really scared by this news.

I would recommend "really intrigued" if town and "really scared" if scum. I say this because I am great.

Anyways, I'll be working through the thread slowly, but in the meantime if someone wants to recap for me that'd just be lovely.

[Pie_is_good]

Also, someone had better come up with a real good reason as to why we haven't massclaimed yet.

[Thor665]

Also, someone had better come up with a real good reason as to why we haven't massclaimed yet.

Because I'm pretty sure you're the only one who really accepts that theory? (though I thought the argument I read from you on it was quite reasonable and interesting)

To recap shortly;

Everyone is lurking, I am town.

To recap more lengthily;

Day started with a couple varied wagons with argueably the two strongest early ones being an argued policy driven one on Ythan (aka Locke Lamora aka MichelSableheart) and the other being an argued scum driven one on TCC (aka Socrates). Ray also got a lot of heat for basically lurking and also for claiming a meta change (of which as far as I could tell the new meta was to lurk more)

Copper argued against TCC (and was probably the biggest proponent of calling the wagon scum driven) and offered the alternative of CSL (aka Fate/Saijin/SFG) citing how scummy he looked getting on the wagon. Sotty also argued against TCC and eventually started up the Pom wagon leaving his previous focus of Ray.

Eventually the votes sort of went to the compromise/deadline candidate and Pom was lynched and flipped town.

Night kill targeted Scrambles/Henry Hathaway who had generally been getting newbie reads (at least from me and Zorblag) and who had seemed to suspect Kthxbye (aka you and Nobody Special)

Day 2 opened with some new faces as Socrates (TCC) showed up and got in an early brawl with the other new arrival Fate (CSL/SFG/Saijin) over Fate calling Socrates scummy for TCC's actions and because Socrates is very good as scum.

Fate later shifted to Copper due to NK speculation from them and also due to Copper's defense of TCC during Day 1 (which while I will accept possible chainsaw here, since we only have half the equation for a chainsaw I'd rather lynch TCC/Socrates over it rather then Copper who has seemed otherwise fairly townish) meanwhile the camps seem to be drawing up for a Fate or Copper lynch (I'm on the vote Fate lynch side if that's the choice though I have not voted yet). Zorblag has also gotten some heat for being very lurky at this point (and I know I wish to hear more from him). Plus we have a slight slow down as you have replaced in, as well as quite recently getting Michel to replace in and Saint Kerrigan (replacing Ray after I asked him to replace out or contribute - make of that what you can).

Personally I'm waiting for the replacements to start talking as I still feel quite in the dark as concerns Ray and am also hoping the fresh eyes might see something I've missed as I'm not sure how I feel about the Fate/Copper choice being where we're ending up.

[Socrates]

Howdy all. Kinda let this game go by the wayside. Haven't really read the last few pages.

I'll have some time later to do so.

[Pie_is_good]

So it's agreed, then. We're massclaiming.

I say Fate starts, and then popcorn from there.

[SaintKerrigan]

Wait a minute. How does one person saying a massclaim theory is interesting equate to everyone agreeing to do a massclaim?

I think it's too soon to even think about massclaiming. I can't see a positive for the town for doing so at this point (as scum could fakeclaim power roles to avoid being lynched), while for the scum it gives them more information on who to target.

[Copper]

Explain your logic behind massclaiming on Day 2 with two Townie flips and one Townie claim.

[Pie_is_good]

Well, I gave you a good 3 hours to voice any reasonable objections, and no one did so.

Anyways, aside from the general non-game-specific reasons for massclaim being awesome, the fact that we have two dead townies means we'll have even more power roles claiming. And massclaim is best when there are either a lot or a few power roles alive - either scum simply doesn't have time to kill all the power roles, or there are no power roles, so massclaim gives no info to scum and yet town knows the setup.

Plus, massclaim is a good idea with 10 alive, always, no exceptions. Especially with one day down.

[Fate]

Misc ISO reads:

Charter-Consistent suspicions of Copper, not much else. Charter, Sotty pointed this out, but is it true you still haven't read through D1 and analyzed it? You haven't said about other players.
@Charter: Yes, I think I've given other reasons as to why I would like a Copper lynch. Let's not forget the fact that my fav pick Socrates' wagon issn't gaining much momentum, and town needs to start coming to a consensus if we're going to ever move this game forward.

Sotty-Asks a lot of questions. I find this playstyle more suitable for scum as it allows them to appear scumhunting, (aka "I'm sitting back and looking for reactions") without taking any strong stances or building good cases. Kept vote on Ray for his whole meta thing, until she switches over to a Ythan deadline vote. Gets off when LL replaces in (I agree with him) and goes back to RayFrost, but keeps suspicions of LL with posts like:

Ugh Locke's hop is weak. I'm not seeing the Ray contradiction, it just looks like a game of semantics to me. He also justifies his TCC vote only to abandon it. I don't like it.

Her Pom vote was one of the worse on the wagon. She "geniunely" thought Pom to be scum

Unvote, Vote: Pom

I really think she is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath.

After not having said a word on her before. Why was Pom scum and not other lurkers/inactives that didn't scumhunt? If lack of scumhunting is a scumtell, then why did Sotty think TCC was town? Just because the speed of the wagon?

Here's another fabricated suspicion from Sotty:

With that said I went back and saw that CSL replaced someone I found very scummy SFG/Sajin.

How did you find SFG/Sajin scummy? SFG didn't post outside of RVS (iirc) and Sajin didn't post ONCE. This seems like a blatant, "oh well I found CSL's slot scummy before..." excuse to vote him later, oh yeah that's me and she's voting me today.

After that is more posts expounding her case on Pom. This is just an ISO but so far I'm getting the feeling she was one of the biggest pushers behind this mislynch.

D2:
Seems hell bent on lynching me today, tunneling at its finest. Sotty you have nothing to say about Ray Frost today? You don't even

comment

on him saying, "oh yeah that works, /replaceout"?

Fate, you said it was scummy that Socrates hasn't commented/committed much on day one, what about charter? His vote on Copper is based on today's actions only and he said in thread that he skipped most of day one. Why are you not finding that scummy?

Well, now that I've done an ISO of Charter, I see that he did in fact comment on Copper multiple times D1! This looks like a deflection from Socrates to Charter, "hey look this guy is doing it to, shouldn't you think he's scum as well?"

Re:Pie
YAY MASSCLAIM! OK I'M FIRST? I CLAIM:
Townperson that doesn't want to give scum unnecessary information when we are nowhere near MyLo/LyLo and have legitimate reads that we can go off of instead of claims/setup speculation.

I'll do more ISO reads soon, interested in hearing what SK and Pie have to say about the game. Would not mind a Sotty lynch atm.

[MichelSableheart]

I believe we can trust powerroles to claim when they feel they have information that could break the game. I believe the information scum gains from a massclaim is far more significant for them then the additional info town would game. We're not massclaiming yet.

---

This game has suffered a large amount of inactivity and a lot of replacements. Various players have been accused of active lurking. I would not be surprised if several scum took the opportunity to hide in that group. Therefore, I'll start my analysis by looking at activity. I am especially on the lookout for intentional behaviour.

Pie_is_good/Kthxbye/Nobody Special

Nobody Special posted in bursts. He made several posts in a day, then went a couple of days without posting before posting again. Content wise, his posts aren't that great. His first posts are made during the RVS, and don't seem to contain any significant accusations. He ends the game arguing with Ythan over his activity. In between, he makes a single relevant attack, which is relatively little for a week of play. Overall, he was active, never needed to be prodded, but gave virtually no content whatsoever. It's very well possible that he was trying to stay under the radar.

There can be no complaints about how often Ktx posts. He almost always posts once every two days, the only exceptions being night and V/LA. He requests replacement before a long period of absence actually prevents him from playing. There can't really be any complaining about his content either: he has no problems with giving his opinion.

Pie hasn't been around long enough to significantly judge his activity.

Saint Kerrigan/RayFrost

Ray's activity came and went in waves. He is either very active, posting multiple times a day, or he simply isn't there. He was prodded multiple times, and also made several posts promising content. In the RVS, his participation was reasonable, with a clash with NS and an accusation of Scrambles. After that, though, his contribution completely disappeared for a while. The most relevant thing I can find in that period is that he accuses Ythan of active lurking, which is a bit hypocrite. Later on, his content improves again, with defence against Pom meta accusations, and an attack against Ktx TCC vote. After that, he effectively completely dissappears, posting no content for a week before being replaced. However, that second period of inactivity and subsequent replacing out was sitewide, so it's unlikely that was done particulary for this game. Still, there was a period where he was active lurking.

SaintKerrigan has replaced in only recently, posted content. No complaints about him.

Sotty7

Sotty posted often enough. She started posting daily, then started skipping some days, but she was never at risk of being prodded. She also brought up a reasonable amount of original content. I don't consider her to be active lurking.

Thor665

Thor's activity was by far the best of the game, especially early on. He posted very regulary, even for this game, but not so often it would make it difficult for others to catch up. Most of his posts contain relevant content. He's definately not lurking.

Zorblag/Cyberbob

Cyberbob never confirmed. He never posted in the game. I highly doubt that was done intentionally to help achieve his wincondition. He was inactive, not lurking.

Troll started the game extremely slowly. His first post with content was made 5 days after replacing in. Still, after getting involved in the game, he posted reasonable content at a regular basis. Until he effectively completely disappeared from the game more then a week ago, that is. That disappearance seems to be sitewide though. No lurking here.

Fate/CSL/Sajin/SFG

SFG was active enough for the few days she was here. Her content was at a level that could be expected during the RVS.

Sajin replaced in as a favour to SFG, but never got into the game. He made two posts stating he was reading up, then requested replacement. This seems to me to be the behaviour that is expected from someone who took on a game he didn't have the time for. He was inactive, not lurking.

CSL to me read virtually the same. He replaced in because he needed a replacement for his own game, not because he was interested in playing a mini normal. He has slightly more content then Sajin, but doesn't even attempt to make it appear like he's participating. I really don't see him as trying to stay under the radar in the hope of helping his wincondition. He seems to be simply not interested. Inactive, not lurking.

Fate is active enough, posting regulary and posting content. Overall, I don't believe this slot has been active lurking.

Socrates/TheCheshireCat

After march 10th, TCC went for a period of 8 days werehe only posted to anounce V/LA or to promise content. Before that, he posted more often, but didn't provide any actual content. The best suspicions I can find from him are in post #219. Besides that, he only pressured inactives. Very telling for how I preceived him is how I have marked down post #368 in my notes: "TCC going to be V/LA for a day (so what, you don't post content anyway)." In my opinion, it is very well possible that TCC was avoiding commenting to stay out of the spotlight.

Socrates seems to be posting often enough. His content isn't great, but is acceptable, especially considering how much effort it costs to actually read this game from beginning to end.

MichelSableheart/Locke Lamora/Ythan

As I said before, Ythan posts a lot. When he replaced out, he had made more then 1/3 of the total posts in the game. Most of his posts are oneliners, and quite often they are not hugely relevant. In between those huge number of posts, there are some relevant thoughts though. If I may believe the title fairy thread, this is being true to his meta. I doubt he chose his behaviour to get an advantage in this particular game.

Locke posted regulary, and brought up his own content. I don't believe he can be accused of active lurking.

I myself have posted regulary. I haven't provided much content yet though, due to the fact that writing posts such as this one takes time.

Copper

Copper posted regulary, Copper posted content, Copper wasn't lurking.

Pomegranate

Ignoring her V/LA during weekends, Pomegranate posted at a very regular basis. If she was lurking, it would be because she avoided posting actual content. Reading her posts though, I don't believe this is the case. Her play during RVS was reasonable. Her main attacks after that were for active lurking, which is an acceptable reason to be suspicious, especially in a game situation such as we had during day 1, with lots of replacement and inactivity. Later on, when the pressure was on her, she started attacking for other reasons as well. Overall, her content wasn't great, but it was better then some of the other players in this game.

Henry Hathaway/ScramblesTheDeathDealer

Scrambles posted daily till march 11th. After that, he posted once more, then had to replace out. He didn't give a whole lot of content though. Most of his posts are social chatter. The main thing he did was attack NS. Judging solely on his posts (not his flip), he could well be considred active lurking.

Henri was active when he replaced in, then effectively disappeared. The only thing he contributed was an attack on Ktx, who had replaced NS. If he was trying to fly under the radar, I don't think he would have posted as much as he did when he replaced in. His inactivity seems genuine to me.

charter/Inquisitor JL

Inquisitor started of reasonably active, then disappeared. After march 8th, he only posted status updates, then requested replacement. His content when he did post was good, so it seems to me that he simply got busier, tried to remain in the game, but couldn't. I don't believe he was lurking.

Charter posted often enough. The content he can deliver is hampered by the fact that he doesn't want to read Ythan. Besides that, I'm happy with what he provides, and don't believe he was lurking.

---

Out of the players still alive, this analysis causes me to be suspicious of Pie, Socrates and to a lesser extend SaintKerrigan due to the active lurking of their predecessors.

For the bandwagon analysis, it is important to note that Pom's contributions were better then those of NS and TCC. Personally, I liked her contributions better then those of RayFrost as well.

For nightkill analysis, I'm noting that Scrambles could be considered active lurking, and that Henri's behaviour after march 21th could be mistaken for active lurking as well.

---

I will look into the major bandwagons next time I can seriously work on this game.

[Col.Cathart]

Reposting the last votecount, because there was no vote changes since the last one.

Votecount 2.3

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch

If you'll encounter any kind of mistake in the votecount, please point it out.

Fate (3):

Socrates, Copper, Sotty7

Copper (3):

Kthxbye, charter, Fate
Socrates (1): Zorblag

not voting (3): Saint Kerrigan, Thor665, MichelSableheart

The current deadline is on

Monday, April 19th 2010 at 6:30 PM GMT +1
Modified Countdown

Troll has about 6 more hours to respond to his prod.

Also, I forgot to mention it earlier, but Socrates was prodded per request some time before he posted again.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty - I'm not sure I see what "twigged" your gut there. I do know that I asked questions to Saijin, HH, Kthx, and probably others when they replaced in (the Kthx one is in some ways a very functionally similar question to the Michel one since it asked for a read on a predecessor's action).

So either this isn't much of a tell for me (or a tell at all) or at least if it's a tell between Michel and I it's also probably a tell between Kthx and I and you can see if the vibe there is similar or different to what piece of wood is or is not in your gut.

Your explanation was reasonable enough. I don't feel like pushing it right now. You know what guts re like, I had to question it.

Okay Fate's points on me are bullshit. Yeah I asked questions but I have also provided plenty of analysis too. Yeah I thought Pom was scum, so what?

Unvote, Vote: Pom 

I really think she is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath.

After not having said a word on her before. Why was Pom scum and not other lurkers/inactives that didn't scumhunt? If lack of scumhunting is a scumtell, then why did Sotty think TCC was town? Just because the speed of the wagon?

This is a lie. I spent several posts questioning Pom so I had mentioned her before. If you had actually

read

my ISO you would have seen that. You would have also seen how I differentiated between Pom and TCC.

With that said I went back and saw that CSL replaced someone I found very scummy SFG/Sajin.

How did you find SFG/Sajin scummy? SFG didn't post outside of RVS (iirc) and Sajin didn't post ONCE. This seems like a blatant, "oh well I found CSL's slot scummy before..." excuse to vote him later, oh yeah that's me and she's voting me today.

Again if you had read my ISO you would have seen me pushing SFG right at the start of the game and why I found her scummy. Seriously.

Fate you also ignored my question to you about charter. If you really read my ISO you would have seen that too.

Fate, you said it was scummy that Socrates hasn't commented/committed much on day one, what about charter? His vote on Copper is based on today's actions only and he said in thread that he skipped most of day one. Why are you not finding that scummy?

I am not liking how both charter and now Fate have clearly missrepped me. Thor also did this, but I'm feeling more a genuine mistake. I really want a Fate lynch at this point. charter is a likely buddy.

I am waiting to see who Michel thinks is scum.

Pie, if you can give me some good reasons why we should mass claim on day two in a mini normal then lets here them. Otherwise I'm against it. have you read the game yet?

SaintKerrigan, same question to you.

[Pie_is_good]

I haven't finished reading the game yet. I'm working through it. I'll post my notes when done.

Minor FoS: MSH for the last post. "Analyzing" posting frequency is a nice way to blow hot air around and appear to be contributing without actually putting your neck on the line. The FoS is minor because I realize there's a site tendency for even townies to do exactly that, which is frankly unfortunate.

Massclaiming:
To be clear, I would be pushing for a massclaim in just about any day 2 of a mini normal, although the fact that both deaths have been townies makes it an even better idea than usual in this one.

The downside of a massclaim is that it improves the accuracy of the scum's nightkills. The upside is, that doesn't matter much if everyone's claiming at the same time - scum doesn't have the firepower to off more than one power role a night, which is far too slow when the town power roles can now coordinate with each other. It's also much more difficult for scum to fakeclaim power roles when the massclaim happens early - they have to keep up the charade for longer. Further, it's a huge bonus to scumhunting - instead of asking "Is X acting more like scum or more like a generic town role?" you can ask "Is X acting like scum or more like his claimed role?" This is especially potent when the massclaim happens early, because you lock them into their claimed role before they can properly evaluate, which is a problem townies don't have.

Anyways, that's my case for the massclaim, and if we still don't agree I'll let it drop (but probably push again tomorrow). The case is mostly theoretical rather than game-specific, so it's not worth pursuing too hard in this thread.

[Sotty7]

I had the same reaction to Michel's last post Pie, but Pom also did a similar thing in this game that I jumped on and she flipped town. I just really want to see who he thinks is scum and why. The sooner the better.

I can see your points Pie as far as mass claim goes, but site meta these days seems to be to give the scum a roleblocker role to counter town power roles. If we out all our roles so early the roleblocker becomes even more powerful. Of course they might not have one but that's what my paranoia is saying to me. I think we wait.

[Col.Cathart]

*Sigh* I gave him enough time to respond already.

Looking for replacement for Zorblag.

[MichelSableheart]

@Pie and Sotty: replacements and inactivity have played a major part in this game, with a lot of players having been accused of active lurking at one point or another. By looking at activity first, I can better judge those accusations of active lurking.

I've made a begin with my bandwagon analysis, but won't finish it today.

Everyone (except Zorblag) posted in the last 48 hours, no prods to be requested.

[Pie_is_good]

By looking at activity first, I can better judge those accusations of active lurking.

This is what we in the business call "irony."

Still working on the reread. I probably won't be making as much progress as I'd like on it in the next few days, but I'll keep up to date on current events of the thread.

[Copper]

I think Sotty's point is the most relevant here regarding massclaim. In a large game, I would probably agree with Pie that a massclaim would be in order - we could direct our PR's, catch fakeclaims, while the scum can only go after one at a time. But, let's say the scum have a roleblocker and we have two PRs, both of which are plenty possible. Night two, the scum will roleblock one and kill the other. Night three, they roleblock and kill the same one. I don't particularly like our odds with a massclaim when weighed against the status quo.

I'd also like to revisit Fate 775 because this is my personal first post since then.

I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR. Seems like you're setting up to believe his claim with a "Oh, so that's why he lurked terribly, yeah I buy the claim" later on.

This isn't even a point. Pointing out the possibility of a slot being a PR is vastly different then setting up a slot to be a PR. I especially don't understand "so that's he lurked terribly", as though being a PR explains lurking. To the best of my knowledge, neither I nor anyone else have offered the idea that being a PR both causes and is a explanation for lurking. You're making up senseless points and then calling us scummy for saying them.

I wouldn't have lynched an empty slot though, like I said, I would have left my vote on until a replacement came in (and begged the mod for an extension due to replacements).

Lynches are the responsibility of the players, not the mod. We already had one extension day one, it was incredibly unlikely we would have gotten another. This petulant clinging to a favorite lynch when the target doesn't currently exist and deadline is approaching is terrible play, though I'll concede it's not necessarily scummy.

You mean:

I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.

Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted.

This is exactly the sort of thing that makes it very hard to see your 'case' as an honest attempt at scumhunting. Let's remember what that was a reply to:

There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.

Also, you don't need to vote your scumpartner to buss them. Sometimes just distancing is a stronger tell, with posts like these:

That being said, Cheshsire is a very close second. After her huffy 'I AM hunting scum thank you very much' posts it's worrying that she couldn't find anything better than a one-line explanation lurkervote (particularly when, as Thor points out, there are worse offenders among us.)

TCC was voted very soon after this was posted. And then a few posts later you say:

I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.

WHOA THERE. Now TCC is just disinterested and not scummy?

So it went something like this:

Fate: Copper quickly changed his mind from thinking TCC was scum to disinterested. That's scummy.

Copper: The reason for this change was well documented. We did think TCC's actions were scummy until multiple events made it seem far more probably she was a disinterested townie.

Fate: Copper is trying to distance himself from thinking TCC is a disinterested townie by claiming he suspected her at one point. That's scummy.

Don't you see the problem here? You are claiming that you read through the game and were struck by how scummy the change of thought was, and then later, you were struck by how scummy it was that we had claimed we thought differently earlier. You are not trying to build a coherent narrative, you're simply quoting our most recent post and then trying to paint it as scummy. At one point, Socrates was your top scum suspect and I was your second. Now, I'm your top and it's unlikely that I would have defended TCC if she also was scum. I find it hard to think you're a townie so willing to tilt at windmills when it comes to Sotty and I and yet perfectly content to throw out things like "hard to read, will care some other time" for the likes of Zorblag and Thor.

Pie makes a good point regarding michel. Michel, while I can understand you saying that this analysis will help you better draw conclusions, you have to understand that it's hard for anyone to take the idea seriously until the conclusions are actually presented to us.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

Just to say where I am at the moment (in a computer chair). I'm still favoring Copper in the Copper/Fate question. I think whichever head of Copper just posted did a good job in putting out the odd flow of post analysis from Fate there and when that is paired with Sotty calling foul for misreps from Fate it is starting to paint the slot fairly scummy. Definitely near the head of the list for me.

I'm not sure if I follow the whole Michel stuff here (I'm guessing it's a basic IoA claim on him, yes?) I do have one question for him;

@Michel - you (rightly) dinged Ray on his relative participation. But then claimed Saint Starcraft Lady as having no problems yet off of something like two semi-relevant posts posted over the course of not even a week. Yeah...within that timeframe it's a solid number of posts but it seems like the sample size is too small to be making any claims on her participation quality at this point - thoughts?

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm very dissatisfied with my read of the Ray/Saint Kerrigan spot at the moment and am contentedly keeping it higher on my scumlist until...well...anything comes out of it.

Kthx/Pie is probably about at the same level since my most solid read on it thus far was - newbie. I am happy to have a player in it who will help shift that read along the scum/town axis.

@Pie - thus far your contributions have mostly been all on the massclaim question (which is interesting in light of your minor FoS on Michel. Irony thy edge be double bladed one susposes). I'd like to hear your current read on the Fate/Copper question.