Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Fate]

And now to actually post content:

There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.

Wagons dismantle when there's little enough time that there might not be a replacement. After all, TCC wasn't replaced until night one. If you had been here day one, would you seriously want to lynch TCC's slot while it was empty and could be a PR?

I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR. Seems like you're setting up to believe his claim with a "Oh, so that's why he lurked terribly, yeah I buy the claim" later on.

I wouldn't have lynched an empty slot though, like I said, I would have left my vote on until a replacement came in (and begged the mod for an extension due to replacements).

Did you not read the very next paragraph of that post?

You mean

I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.

Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted.

No. That was referring to the fact that "Copper" is a hydra, with multiple people posting in the game thread. And yet, despite the fact there are multiple people trying to come to a consensus, our views still have a coherence that your posts have been lacking. Now, it's not scummy in and of itself to have clashing internal views - it can happen easily enough when you go off of a standard book of 'scumtells' without looking at context. I'm voting you moreso because I simply can't see you as a townie making honest points, particularly with the vehemence you've been pursuing them. Socrates has already hit on quite a few reasons why I think this, particularly this one:

Reason the forth, there are plenty other players in this game who are clearly under-contributing that he is patently ignoring. What about troll? I hear he is a good player (I've been called "the Zorblag of the scum team" as some kind of compliment before) and he has 1 post today. so how does Fate deal with him? He will be easier to read with vote counts and lynches? Pah! I've never seen a more shameless equivocation. What about Lockelamora who is doing a whole lot of nothing? Does he get a free pass because he has never hoodwinked you in the past? What about Kthxbye who made a really scummy vote and then promptly went V/LA?

This a response to both: I only have one vote. No one is getting any passes. Just because Troll is hard to read doesn't mean I will never try to pressure or suspect him. I already said my thoughts on Lock and Kthx, who are now both getting replaced. OH JOY.

[Fate]

More @Copper:

What exactly makes my play different from Socrates? The only reason you seem to be voting me over Socrates is the "assumption" that Socrates is town for the sake of your arguments. You even boldly state this to be true.

We both have replaced in. We both posted our first thoughts and essentially crossvoted (though of course I am biased and think Socrates voting of Kthx, THEN, me was much more scummy).

You come in, say "well I'll assume TCC is town therefore Fate is scum." Which will be all nice and good if TCC actually does flip town, and "strengthens" your case on me. That is another reason I switched from TCC to Copper. He's more likely scum of the pairing there upon further review, if only because Copperscum boldly calling TCCscum town doesn't make much sense in my mind.

So, upon re-reading your post where you vote me, you think I'm scum because I think scum were bussing TCC? As in you think my reads are wrong so you think I'm scum?

Or did you pick on the person that you had "a consistent suspicion of" (voted CSL D1) and now are trying to push a mislynch on because I've posted more and it is easier to twist what I say than my previous' inactive slots?

[Fate]

Fate's constant and incessant characterization of me as some kind of mafia god that is obv scum if I don't live up to his hype and catch all of the scum in 1 page is obnoxious and is completely dishonest.

Reason the first, There is no way Fate could have actually developed that kind of meta on me because he has never seen me play as town! If he had actually taken the time to meta me, he would know that I am very, very bad at scum hunting. I think I only have 1 game in my entire career where I have successfully caught multiple scum.

Alts Ftw. I've played with you before, buddy

Reason the second, By creating this impossible high set of standards for which I must play to, there is no amount of contribution that I can actually make that he can't claim that its "not good enough".

High standards? You're only case right now is on me with a weak vote on Kthx earlier. I know I'm town, so yeah, you're obviously doing poorly with your scumhunting. Back this up with a cop-out, "I'm usually wrong as town" is distancing from your own vote and it is BAD. No one else but Troll seems to see this though.

Reason the third, the day has less than two pages to it! Not only have I been contributing more than aptly, I had specifically stated that my schedule was mostly tied up this week and would not be able to read the game in full for a few days. Talk about an easy target.

"More than aptly"="This game make head hurt. Ow. Kthx is scum, wait no, Fate is scum for voting me." Ok.

Reason the forth, there are plenty other players in this game who are clearly under-contributing that he is patently ignoring. What about troll? I hear he is a good player (I've been called "the Zorblag of the scum team" as some kind of compliment before) and he has 1 post today. so how does Fate deal with him? He will be easier to read with vote counts and lynches? Pah! I've never seen a more shameless equivocation. What about Lockelamora who is doing a whole lot of nothing? Does he get a free pass because he has never hoodwinked you in the past? What about Kthxbye who made a really scummy vote and then promptly went V/LA?

See other post.

Reason the fifth, if I am such a good scum player,

then isn't "contribution" the exact kind of thing that I am good at faking?

What

ARE

your standards Fate? What exactly were you actually expecting to see out of me that would satisfy you? Apparently catching two scum in less than a page isn't good enough (Admittedly, one of those scums is you ).

I'm expecting to see you adequately analyze and dissect D1 play and vote accordingly. That said, I've come to realize that I myself haven't even lived up to those standards (as said before, I think it might be due to D1 being such a painful read.)

But STILL. You're first content post is "lol @Fate's case on me"+quote Kthx&Vote on Kthx. It is like you're not even trying. I ISO you and you say nothing except to attack me (which serves as a defense for yourself by picking apart my case), and yeah. The only other stance you have taken is loosely in ISO #11 where you start to give thoughts on D1 and who is scum on what wagon, as well as having a Town-read on Ythan's slot.

@Socrates: who is scum based off

D1

and the POM lynch? You can keep your vote on me for my "play" today, fine, but you're reluctance to offer your thoughts on D1 is scummy.

[MichelSableheart]

Of most relevance in my mind is you simply getting up to speed and offering a fresh glance at where we were and where we are. As a general question in and amongst that work effort, I would like you to clarify your position as regards Ythan/Locke and how your opinions coincide or disagree with theirs.

Basing my initial reply to this solely on the first 15 pages. Therefore, only remarks about Ythan thus far.

Ythan tends to post a lot, part of which is actually game relevant. It's annoying to read him, though, especially when there are lurkers in the game. It especially makes it didfficult to determine how often everyone is posting. Because of this, my notes have three players listed as "not very active, check for lurking".

I can see where his early vote for Inquisitor was coming from (ISO 44-45), but don't think what he listed was actually indicative of scum. I agreed with his vote for Ray (Ray wasn't really helping, so others claiming he's playing to his scum meta is reason enough for a vote) and I really liked his attack on NS. His pressure on Scrambles was justified.

Overall, I found myself mostly agreeing with Ythan over the beginning of the game, nowhere significantly disagreeing with his opinions.

Time to continue reading the thread.

[MichelSableheart]

I have now read all of day 1. Unfortunately, it is bedtime for me now, so the last 4 pages will have to wait. I expect a busy day tomorrow, so my analysis of the entire game will probably only arrive on friday.

This game has seen quite a bit of trouble with inactivity. The mod says he'll prod after 72 hours, or after 48 hours on request. If we request prods whenever someone goes 48 hours without posting, we can reduce the time players are allowed to not post by a full day. Therefore:

Mod: prod on Sotty, please

Finally opinions on Ythan and Locke's opinions of day 1. Expect further explanation of why I actually agree in my analysis friday:
As I said, I liked Ythan's NS vote, so I agreed with the pressure on him for lurking here while posting in another game. He may have been a bit rough about it though.
As for Ythan's vote on Sotty: it's poorly explained, and I even missed it in my notes. I don't know his reasons, but I believe a bit of pressure on Sotty was good at the time.
I like the fact that shortly after his Sotty vote, Ythan finally explained his suspicions against both Ray and NS a bit further.
Hit vote on Kthx is back to his previous NS suspicions, which I still agree with
Overall opinion on Ythan: I agree with his opinions, but he is a nightmare to read, and probably even worse to play with. However, if I may believe the Title Fairy Thread, that is part of his meta.

On Locke:
I agree with Locke's analysis of TCC's play. It was terrible. He continually kept making excuses without giving any content.
Part of this may be hindsight, but I very strongly disagreed with his case against Pomegranate in the entire thread. I really didn't see anything scummy from her, and she was far less of an active lurker then some other players in the thread. The only thing that's remotely reasonable in his case is the statement about Pom refusing to actually defend her meta read.
Locke's vote of Kthx was not very well supported, but Kthx vote of TCC was rather suspicious there. This is a vote I can agree with.
Conclusion on Locke: I very strongly disagreed with the Pom wagon.

[Sotty7]

I'm here but some what poorly and that has effected my posting in all my games. I know it is hurting this one more than most but I am doing what I can.

I will be back later and read up on what I missed since my last post. I promise I will not flake on this game.

[charter]

What do you mean, shift blame on to Locke? I was pointing out that yes, there wasn't much content in my first post, because it was a quick post with my initial thoughts, but how is this scummy compared to other quick posts with initial thoughts? I simply used Locke as my example.

I mean that when I called your first post scummy you asked why didn't I suspect Locke as well. That's trying to shift blame.

Are you seriously accusing Copper of active lurking? You have to remember that when 'posting fluff' is forwarded as a scumtell, it's generally because that slot is attempting to get away without posting anything else. That's not at all the case here . The day started, and there was a night kill I didn't understand, so I posted my first impressions of it. I'm not asking that you treat this as a solid contribution, but you can't accuse a single post of active lurking - that's something you apply to the net contribution of a slot, and looking at only half of Copper's posts would still make an active lurking charge senseless.

Ok, I shouldn't have said active lurking, I just meant it was a fluff post.

I don't understand the 'two buddies that can hammer' sentiment. What's so hard to believe about CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast-growing wagon and hoping townies take it to L-1 and hammer? Why would only his buddies be able to vote for TCC after him?

It's not hard to believe CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast growing wagon. It's just as not hard to believe CSL as town doing the same thing. It was a joke vote, so a quickhammer like you describe seems inconceivable.

This is noteworthy because I think the Socrates wagon is the pinnacle of 'accusations with no bearing on alignment', as you can see in the part of this post directed at Zorblag. I'd appreciate it if you could point how my case on Fate is alignment-independent in a way that the 'case' on Socrates is not.

CSL making a joke vote, not indicative of alignment. Speed of TCC wagon doesn't make TCC town, so using that assumption to call CSL scum is even worse. As for why I suspect Socrates is because of how you defend TCC when there's no reason to, I don't see any way other than you two being buddies. Also TCC replacing out when he was under pressure. Socrates's posts at the start of day two were bad, as well, but he's fixed that. I'm not positive on everyone else's reasons for voting Socrates.

I'm trying to post in shorter segments both to prevent a great wall of text and because I had a huge post typed up and then my browser crashed.

[charter]

Sotty, how are you agreeing with what Copper is saying? What about what he says not relating to Fate?

I'm not a huge fan of the night kill post but I am feeling more Coppertown than Copperscum at this point. What do you think about his/my case that Fate is scum?

I think there's some merit, but with both Copper and Socrates going after Fate, I'm afraid Fate is just Pom 2.0.

I have also been working of the thought that TCC/Socrates is town, does that make me scummy as well?

Why do you think he's town? Are you using the same dodgy reasons as Copper? If you have some actual reason for thinking that, then it doesn't, but if your reason is something not telling like 'wagon speed' then yeah, that would make you scummy.

I'm not sure I see where charter is going with the presumption Copper is making of TCC=town making Copper scum since Copper was claiming that fairly early and fairly often and charter never commented on it then, certainly not with a vote.

I explained this in 642 and 643, and I didn't vote Copper at the time because it was near deadline and I was voting TCC.

@charter - Is the Copper clearing of TCC the crux of your case, or does it have to be paired with the "scum tell" of NK speculation? If you think he did it to score town points for defending a townie TCC how do you feel about his Pom defense the same day which was infinitely weaker and he explicitly distanced from a defense of it when I asked him about his attitude towards the two defenses?

No, it's how he's clearing TCC, which I elaborated on in 642. I said yesterday that his defense of Pom and TCC were nothing similar, that his Pom one was feeble. I don't really think Copper is trying to score town points by defending TCC, I think he did it to try and save his buddy because the reasons he uses are pretty bad. He didn't really give any reason for not liking the Pom wagon, so that seems much more like trying to distance from a town wagon.

[charter]

Kthx's post 772 is super terrible. Claiming like that with like zero votes, I don't even know what to make of that.

Ok, 774 is really bad as well. Fate, is there any reason other than wagoning you have for voting Copper? Ok, got to 775, actually has some valid points, such as "I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR" and "Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted"

Alright, I'm still thinking Copper and Socrates are scum. Fate looks pretty good with his posts on this page.

[charter]

Also

Vote count please

[Col.Cathart]

Votecount 2.3

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch

If you'll encounter any kind of mistake in the votecount, please point it out.

Fate (3):

Socrates, Copper, Sotty7

Copper (3):

Kthxbye, charter, Fate
Socrates (1): Zorblag

not voting (3): Saint Kerrigan, Thor665, MichelSableheart

The current deadline is on

Monday, 12th April at 6:30 PM GMT +1
Countdown

Looking for Kthnxbye replacement.

AGAIN, due to large number of sudden replacement, I'm willing to extend the day, if at least half of the living players will request it.

Activity check tomorrow, as I'm really sleepy now.

[Thor665]

request extension - vote 1 of needed 6

@Copper - where are you on the Ray/Ythan connection (now Michel/Saint Kerrigan)?

@charter - A lot of the TCC votes (at the very least mine) did seem to swell up due to a feeling of active lurk/lack of contribution. Socrates has been accused by you of being scummy early, but clearing it up a bit later (which I guess is mostly his defensiveness and NK speculation?)

What I'm getting at is, do you feel the TCC/Socrates slot is scummy only in connection with Copper's defense of it, or do you feel it is scummy as a separate entity unto itself.

I will echo an agreement of your displeasure towards Kthx's reveal, and with him replacing out I'm bewildered how to respond to it as a strategy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Things have come up, sorry but I might not good thoughts up until Friday.

Based on my initial read-through of the game and a bit of gut, I feel worried about Sotty7. She seems to be more or less lurking (although it's hard to tell because she is posting more than some other players have), and about the only original thing I can recall coming out of her position was the push for the mislynch on Pomegranate. I'll reserve further judgment until I read her in ISO (along with everyone else).

Socrates worries me a bit, but at the moment it's mostly because he has expressed disinterest in this game and the last time I saw him disinterested in a game was when he was scum. It's definitely not enough to lynch over, but something I'm keeping in mind.

Fate's posts didn't stand out as paragons of towniness to me, but I'll hesitate to call them scummy until I've examined them in a more in-depth manner.

Game needs more Troll.

That's all I have to say for now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and request extension. 2/6

[Sotty7]

But the rest doesn't follow. SFG/Saijin got some initial heat from Pom and Sotty before Pom twittered off to Ray and Sotty eventually leapt to the TCC wagon (and then later Ray, before heading to Pom).

Wait, wait, wait. I never voted TCC and was with Copper in thinking that slot was town since around the mid of day one. I went for SFG, to Ray, to Ythan, back to Ray and then to Pom.

I am pretty sure Copper is town at this point. This wagon is bad. I'd like a detailed case presented on why Copper is scum, because I don't see a lot of spin. Break it down blow by blow for me.

Thor why was it important to get Michel to state if he agrees with the people he replaced? I don't remember you asking any other replacement this, it seems kind of strange. I would rather hear Michel's own opinions on what went down.

Fate, you said it was scummy that Socrates hasn't commented/committed much on day one, what about charter? His vote on Copper is based on today's actions only and he said in thread that he skipped most of day one. Why are you not finding that scummy?

Why do you think he's town? Are you using the same dodgy reasons as Copper? If you have some actual reason for thinking that, then it doesn't, but if your reason is something not telling like 'wagon speed' then yeah, that would make you scummy. 

It's part wagon speed in collaboration with how slow the rest of the game was and part newbie gut read. I will say that Socrates isn't oozing protowness in this game. It's making my nose itch.

request extension - vote 3 of needed 6

Where the frig is Troll?

[Sotty7]

Dude, I haven't lurked in this game.

[Thor665]

But the rest doesn't follow. SFG/Saijin got some initial heat from Pom and Sotty before Pom twittered off to Ray and Sotty eventually leapt to the TCC wagon (and then later Ray, before heading to Pom).

Wait, wait, wait. I never voted TCC and was with Copper in thinking that slot was town since around the mid of day one. I went for SFG, to Ray, to Ythan, back to Ray and then to Pom.

You're absolutely correct. I probably was just transposing TCC for Ythan in there. I have no excuses besides just wading through all the replacements but I'll blame Ythan anyway because he's not here to defend himself.

Thor why was it important to get Michel to state if he agrees with the people he replaced? I don't remember you asking any other replacement this, it seems kind of strange. I would rather hear Michel's own opinions on what went down.

For the second part of your question - then ask him. Certainly me asking him for his reads on his predecessors has very little to do with preventing you from asking him for his own reads. I don't even begin to understand your issue here. Also, his reads on his predecessor's actions *is* his own opinion.

For the first part - mostly just frustration with the replacements. I liked certain aspects of what Ythan had done and had town reads off of some of it. I wanted to see how Michel would react to it.

[Copper]

What exactly makes my play different from Socrates? The only reason you seem to be voting me over Socrates is the "assumption" that Socrates is town for the sake of your arguments. You even boldly state this to be true.

How could we have gotten this far and you don't already know the answer to this? Unless, do you mean both your and Socrates' play as a replacement of the slot?

You come in, say "well I'll assume TCC is town therefore Fate is scum."

Perhaps you don't think the wagon on TCC was anything that needed to be looked at, but I happened to think so. I believe in artifical votes and concocted positions. I happened to dislike very much the way players like Kthx and CSL opportunistically jumped onto the wagon, and I think these are much more damning moves than any "case" I've heard against TCC (which amounted to, "she's a newbie, so let's lynch her" or "we need a flip, so let's lynch her").

And now we don't even get that. Now TCC is scum because I am scum and I "buddied" up to TCC. Certainly there's no difference between, "Hey, does anyone think this wagon is moving too fast and these votes are a little flimsy? Maybe we should take another look at TCC", and "TCC is definitely town! 100%! I'll stake my life on it! I hope to argue all of D2 about how town TCC was!" Right?

Ok, I shouldn't have said active lurking, I just meant it was a fluff post.

Then what of Ythan's slot?

It's not hard to believe CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast growing wagon. It's just as not hard to believe CSL as town doing the same thing. It was a joke vote, so a quickhammer like you describe seems inconceivable.

He just happens to joke vote the highest vote getter at the time?

He just happens to leave it there at L-1?

I call bs. This sounds more excusatory than it does honest.

Also TCC replacing out when he was under pressure.

I thought this was unanimously thought of as a null tell, but I'll humor it. I've seen just as many townie replace out as I have scum, and I'd contend that TCC was flaky

way

before there was a wagon on her.

I'm afraid Fate is just Pom 2.0.

That's not accurate in the slightest. Pom's wagon was brought about as a compromise lynch towards the very end of the day. How is that even close to resembling the case against Fate?

@Copper - where are you on the Ray/Ythan connection (now Michel/Saint Kerrigan)?

I had said it before in a previous post, which you may remember Thor, that it may be worth lynching one of them in order to see if there was anything to that. I got the impression from the awkward way Ythan/Ray talked to each other in another game that they may or may not be aware of each other's alignments in this game (which would of course likely mean that they are both scum). Because of that, neither of these players I would be firmly opposed to lynching at this point.

As a matter of fact, I was never very satisfied with Ray at any point on D1, and the move to CSL was done by someone else that uses this account. Regardless, I supported the CSL move and I still wholeheartedly support the Fate vote right now, but it's important to note that a Ray lynch is certainly not out of the question.

I am pretty sure Copper is town at this point. This wagon is bad. I'd like a detailed case presented on why Copper is scum, because I don't see a lot of spin. Break it down blow by blow for me.

I think I likewise feel comfortable with you, Sotty. I wanted to point out here though that I do not necessarily think all the players voting me are bad news, charter especially I feel has town points going for him, despite being misguided in his vote and suspicions.

[Copper]

support deadline extension - vote 4 of 6

[MichelSableheart]

Request Extension 5/6

Even after I'm read up, I would like to have more then 3 days to discuss my opinions with the other players.

I would like to point out that Ktx had already claimed Vanilla Townie in post #387. His claim is no new information. It is interesting to see that he mentioned it again just before replacing out though. Perhaps he wanted to make sure his replacement didn't forget he had already claimed?

As I said before, full opinions on the game will come tomorrow. I haven't read the entire game yet.

[Fate]

Request Extension Hammer

I never saw the point of early VT claims, they aren't necessarily scummy but they are pretty anti-town. Just helps scum narrow down PRs if town, and makes town "reluctant" to wagon an already scum claimed VT.

Though I've certainly been guilty of pre-empitve Vanilla claims before as town, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

More comments on players besides Socrates/Copper to come.

[MichelSableheart]

Mod: prod troll please

Should have requested this yesterday, but got confused between Ray and SaintKerrigan when checking activity.

[Col.Cathart]

Prodding Zorblag per request.

Deadline is extended for a week. The new deadline is

Monday, April 19th 2010 at 6:30 PM GMT +1
Modified Countdown

[charter]

What I'm getting at is, do you feel the TCC/Socrates slot is scummy only in connection with Copper's defense of it, or do you feel it is scummy as a separate entity unto itself.

Mostly Copper's defense of him. Socrates himself has been pretty meh, he really hasn't said much except in response to Fate.

It's part wagon speed in collaboration with how slow the rest of the game was and part newbie gut read. I will say that Socrates isn't oozing protowness in this game. It's making my nose itch.

That's pretty shifty, but you threw your gut in there, so there's nothing else to say. From what I gather, you're not using your town read as a reason to vote Fate though.

Then what of Ythan's slot?

If Ythan was still in this game, I would not be doing anything but pushing for a lynch on him. His playstyle needs to be punished with a swift lynch in every game he's in until he stops doing it. He's absolutely guilty of active lurking.

That's not accurate in the slightest. Pom's wagon was brought about as a compromise lynch towards the very end of the day. How is that even close to resembling the case against Fate?

Pom was an easy lynch. Lurky, not scumhunting, pretty much an easy target. Fate's early posts today were pretty bizarre, but I'm afraid he's just another easy target. I actually find it pretty suspicious that Sotty unvoted TCC to vote Pom, and now she's voting Fate. Not really any good scumhunting at all coming from her. The three people I find most suspicious are currently voting Fate, so yeah, it looks like the easy wagon of day two.

[MichelSableheart]

Apologies. I misjudged the working load of several courses I'm taking at the moment. I will have read the entire thread by today, but I won't be able to complete my entire analysis.