Mini 948 - Victorian Vampire - Game Over

[JoshTheStampede]

I don't have any grudges that I'm aware of.

Also, torches are clearly superior to pitchforks. If there is one thing classic horror has taught me, its that all supernatural creatures fear fire.

[JoshTheStampede]

Vote: JoshTheStampede

He's doomed

Or not. I swear his name was bolded two seconds ago on the first post and it said "Bold names are doomed souls"...

Unvote

We're all "doomed souls". Bolded ones were CONFIRMED doomed souls.

[JoshTheStampede]

Vote: Darox

Third on a wagon spotted.

[JoshTheStampede]

I'm invoking the corollary to that rule whereby someone with an independently awesome avatar (me) is allowed to vote for people with other awesome avatars (darox)

[JoshTheStampede]

but theres the hobbes exception to the rule
Hobbes is so awesome compared to anyother avatar on the face of the earth so it automatically is exempt from the your stated rule

Touche. Fine, lets put some heat on someone and see what happens.

unvote
vote: ooba

PRESSURE
PUSHING DOWN ON OOB

[JoshTheStampede]

Can someone unvote ooba. I believe he is at L-1 which gives scum a chance to hammer. You started the bandwagon to start discussion and I believe that was accomplished.

No one is going to hammer him now that it's been made clear that we'll all assume the hammer is scum.

[JoshTheStampede]

Can someone unvote ooba. I believe he is at L-1 which gives scum a chance to hammer. You started the bandwagon to start discussion and I believe that was accomplished.

No one is going to hammer him now that it's been made clear that we'll all assume the hammer is scum.

Shouldn't that have been obvious in the first place?

Should have been, yes, but everyone declaring it outright took the chance of a overeager scum slip-up from "slim" to "none".

[JoshTheStampede]

Can someone unvote ooba. I believe he is at L-1 which gives scum a chance to hammer. You started the bandwagon to start discussion and I believe that was accomplished.

No one is going to hammer him now that it's been made clear that we'll all assume the hammer is scum.

Shouldn't that have been obvious in the first place?

Should have been, yes, but everyone declaring it outright took the chance of a overeager scum slip-up from "slim" to "none".

If you believe that town won't hammer ooba, why are you voting him? Your stated vote is for pressure. If you believe that town won't hammer ooba, how is he under any pressure?

Not finding a town motivation here.

When he was at L-1 and before everyone talked about the hammer stuff, he was under pressure. Now, you're right, he isn't. My vote doesn't really need to be on him anymore.

However, I don't generally unvote unless I am moving my vote somewhere else, though, or unless I think that having it there is detrimental somehow. So until someone else pings my scumdar I'll leave my vote where it is.

[JoshTheStampede]

So you're fine leaving him at l-1 even believing that those who would hammer are scum, and you're not scumhunting at all, just waiting for something to ping your scumdar.

Unvote: Vote: JoshTheStampede

HEY EVERYONE: this is a much better wagon than ooba.

Who says I'm not scumhunting? We're barely out of RVS, I'm reading what's here, which isn't much.

And yes, I'm totally fine leaving him at L-1 (except he isn't anymore, he's at L-2) and using him as bait to catch scum hammerers. I'm not sure why you aren't, really.

Now that I look, though, SpyreX just admitted rolefishing so

Unvote
vote SpyreX

[JoshTheStampede]

Can someone unvote ooba. I believe he is at L-1 which gives scum a chance to hammer. You started the bandwagon to start discussion and I believe that was accomplished.

No one is going to hammer him now that it's been made clear that we'll all assume the hammer is scum.

Shouldn't that have been obvious in the first place?

Should have been, yes, but everyone declaring it outright took the chance of a overeager scum slip-up from "slim" to "none".

If you believe that town won't hammer ooba, why are you voting him? Your stated vote is for pressure. If you believe that town won't hammer ooba, how is he under any pressure?

Not finding a town motivation here.

When he was at L-1 and before everyone talked about the hammer stuff, he was under pressure. Now, you're right, he isn't. My vote doesn't really need to be on him anymore.

However, I don't generally unvote unless I am moving my vote somewhere else, though, or unless I think that having it there is detrimental somehow. So until someone else pings my scumdar I'll leave my vote where it is.

why not unvote? it's as simple as this

Unvote

I know how to unvote. But votes create pressure, and not using that pressure is a waste of the only game mechanic the town can use to their advantage. People often speak and post very differently when there are a few votes on them than they do when they feel they are not under close scrutiny. I like to have my vote on someone whenever possible.

I unvote if someone is in legit danger of being turbolynched unfairly (which I don't think Ooba was actually in danger of), or in similar situations where having no vote out is actually a better idea, but in general I tend to have an active vote whenever possible.

[JoshTheStampede]

why let the wagon get L-1 you don't need to let a wagon get that far to have pressure put on a person.

Well, when I voted Ooba it put him at L-2. Any less than that isn't actually really pressure to anyone who has played more than a game or two. No one is really in danger before L-2 or so. Further, like I said, I believe that after everyone started talking about hammering being scummy, Ooba was not in any danger of getting turbolynched. I would have liked to see how he reacted to being under serious pressure, but everyone talked it up too much and so he didn't actually have to react to any.

I'm seeing the inconsistencies in Josh's argument.

I'm happy to explain myself but I'm not really sure what arguments you are talking about. I put a vote on Ooba for reasons I have explained a couple times, and my SpyreX vote is because rolefishing is a pretty scummy play and at best is bad, anti-town play. If what he was doing was not rolefishing, then I don't understand this post at all:

You're right. 100%.

It was fishing. To see if there was something there that didn't add up with what was given (like a scum-paranoia about mechanics).

I'm busted.

What other arguments have I made that you find inconsistencies with, exactly?

[JoshTheStampede]

Just kinda? I didn't even realize it was THREE awesome votes.

Including one voting for me and FoS'ing Josh which is truly slam-dunk behavior.

Josh is tech is a statement of sarcasm with how quickly he pounced on something to divert attention.

Still would love to know how that was rolefishing, too.

I still have no idea what "Josh is tech" means even after that explanation.

However, I read back at your "I am busted" post and realized that the issue is that I just can't understand what the hell you mean. I guess you were fishing for scum, somehow? Even though that doesn't really make sense. Fishing for scumslips, ok whatever, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one and admit I was possibly wrong about the vote. What you were saying still makes no sense to me but I don't really think it's scummy anymore.

Not going to move my vote yet though, because I have no other cases at the moment and you're in no danger. I'll do some iso reading tomorrow and see if I can't get a read on someone.

[JoshTheStampede]

Ok, I will ATTEMPT to get some logical discussion going here.

@Josh: If it turns out SpyreX is scum, what would you think of his alleged rolefishing then?

I'm not sure what you mean. If it turns out SpyreX is scum, then rolefishing would make sense for him? He's explained his fishing comment, so it's not really a thing anymore.

Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment. Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

[JoshTheStampede]

Darox, you really should not claim or tell us anything about your role, even the flavor, unless you really have to.

[JoshTheStampede]

Darox, you really should not claim or tell us anything about your role, even the flavor, unless you really have to.

Why?

Well, if you mean "Why shouldn't I claim?", it's because claiming tells the mafia who you are, particularly if you are claiming a power role.

If you mean "Why shouldn't I tell you about my role flavor?", it's because the flavor may give clues to the role's actual game function, and it's basically softclaiming.

Now, I don't know what the heck an "Innkeeper" role would do if that is what you were claiming, but I was advising against explaining further unless you really think it would help the town by doing so, which it usually wouldn't.

[JoshTheStampede]

Now, obviously I find Josh's wacky antics even more awesome with going after Darox for doing... nothing?

I'm not going after him, I'm just telling him it's a bad idea to roleclaim.

[JoshTheStampede]

...

The reason "roleclaiming" is bad isn't because of the knowledge of a word. Its the implied knowledge of what that word means - i.e. mafia know a cop needs to go away because they know what a cop does.

Innkeeper is a word. With no defined rules. This is not roleclaiming.

I know that. Jesus, dude, actually read my posts. I wasn't accusing him of roleclaiming, I was telling him NOT to roleclaim. He said he was an innkeeper and a bunch of people asked what that meant. Answering them would have been a bad idea.I wanted to make sure that he wasn't going to follow up on his Innkeeper thing by explaining it further or claiming.

Are you just intentionally misinterpreting what I said or do you really not understand? There's no "wacky antics".

[JoshTheStampede]

He didn't roleclaim.

In no way was that anywhere close to it where saying "don't roleclaim" makes any sense.

Much like saying I was rolefishing when in no way I was.

Good to see we've reached the LRN2READ part of this though. Soon is the vehement anger, and then the resignation. Then the scum flip.

I'm gonna explain this slowly. If that doesn't work I can draw a diagram or something. I'll leave the vehement anger and the scumflip for you, though, thanks.

I know he didn't roleclaim. I thought that he was heading in that direction though, and so I was warning him to not roleclaim. I never said he roleclaimed, I never accused him of it, so stop saying that.

One more time, I thought that he might have been heading for a roleclaim, since people were asking what he meant about the Innkeeper thing. So, before he potentially roleclaimed, I said that he shouldn't.

Do you understand now? Or are you going to not read this post either and just say BUT HE DIDNT ROLECLAIM again? Because I don't really know if I can make it any simpler.

[JoshTheStampede]

...

The reason "roleclaiming" is bad isn't because of the knowledge of a word. Its the implied knowledge of what that word means - i.e. mafia know a cop needs to go away because they know what a cop does.

Innkeeper is a word. With no defined rules. This is not roleclaiming.

However, name-claiming for no reason is also a bad idea, although not as dangerous as role-claiming.

This is very true. It's also dangerous even if the particular name is not a giveaway, because it might lead to others nameclaiming when they DO have more obvious flavor connections.

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

[JoshTheStampede]

Ok, wow. If you guys think that me warning Darox not to claim (which, admittedly, was overly cautious) makes me scum, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not sure why you think scum would go out of their way to prevent claiming when it only helps them, but maybe you have thought about this more than I have.

Yes, I was one of the original people who asked Darox to clarify about Innkeeper. But then, after I posted, I realized that was a bad idea to ask, and so I warned him, as we have discussed. I dont FOS the other people who asked becuase I assume they made the same mistake I did, asking for info about a curious statement, and then maybe realizing afterward that it was a mistake to ask.

I agree with Yosarian. This is a dumb line of conversation and it's getting us nowhere. I know you think you found some magic map to scumboland with this, SpyreX, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.

As for my vote, the three people on my wagon had totally valid reasons to be there, though of course I think the reasons are incorrect. Cruelty, however, chimed in just to say he agreed with SpyreX's crazy "point", and threw his vote in too, in what I think is a huge opportunistic bandwagon vote. It's not scummy to be insane. It is scummy to claim to agree with illogical cases just so you can vote.

I know I'm going to get accused of OMGUS here, but

unvote, vote cruelty

. Please note that I don't have any problem with the other people on my wagon, and so this is not an OMGUS vote.

[JoshTheStampede]

I'll deal with the other stuff in a while but apparently I'm slow so I need this to be its own post:

Explain to me, in the simplest terms, how Darox saying he is an Innkeeper opens the floodgates to town power roles outing themselves.

I don't think you're slow. I think you're being intentionally difficult to try to make things look scummy when they are completely innocuous.

I didn't say it "opened the floodgates". I was being cautious, and trying to make sure that there was no claiming being done, or about to be done, or going to be done in the future. Roleclaiming, nameclaiming, any sort of claiming. I was trying to make sure none of it happened.

At worst, I was being OVERLY cautious and warning people who weren't going to claim anyway. There's no harm in that. I would rather warn too much and have it be unnecessary than not warn at all and have it turn out I should have.

That's all. There's no "slippery slope", no "wacky antics". I have been in games before where town has gotten screwed by someone claiming when they should not have, and so I was trying to prevent that.

I really don't understand why you are being so obtuse about this. Stop tunneling on me for something that is so far from being scummy that it's laughable. Right now your "case" on me is that I:

* voted for you because I didn't understand what the hell you were talking about with your fishing comment
* tried to prevent claiming, and was a little too overzealous in doing so.

Which one of those actions is scummy, again? Oh, that's right, neither one. Oh, right, I'm also "tech", which is apparently scummy even though literally no one but you knows what it means.

[JoshTheStampede]

Yes, that is my case.

Ohh wait lets try again.

* voted for me as a smokescreen from the pressure you were already getting. Look at post 91.
* opted to keep the vote on me after saying you didn't find me scummy anymore because there were no other cases
* asked for more flavor from Darox AND THEN said it was a bad thing. Literally, on the same page, went "claim more, wait claiming is bad".
* gave the example of "The Vampire Hunter" coming out as an example of this and then had the sheer cajones to say there was no slippery slope.

Yes, just keep repeating those points. Never mind the fact that I explained them already, or that they never made sense the first time you said them.

Seriously, are you reading the same game as the rest of us? Reading you in iso it becomes clear that nothing you have said this game makes an iota of sense. It's like you picked my name out of a hat and decided to willfully misinterpret everything I say because you've already decided on my alignment.

Or is it that you locked onto me because I voted for you originally? Is this just some extended grudge? Can we try to actually get some scumhunting done here?

[JoshTheStampede]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy?
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

I explained the 1st one several times. The rest of them I don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry I didn't "explain there be no other cases", whatever that means.

I'm asking for scumhunting to get done as opposed to continuing this useless derail, and I still don't understand how you think my "slippery slope" argument makes me scum. I think you just like to yell "slippery slope" as if it proves your point, which, again, I still am not clear on what your point even is.

Do you think I'm scum because I tried to prevent a possible claim? Even if you are certain no claim was coming, why would scum try to prevent claiming at all? Does that make any sense to you at all?

I am now officially done arguing with you about this completely ludicrous waste of everyone's time. Feel free to get in the last word if you want. Feel free to post the same things again and see if anyone else will join you on the absurd wagon. Also feel free to make any real cases you want, but I'm just not going to feed the troll about this one anymore.

My vote is on cruelty for reasons I have explained. I think SpyreX is just an insane townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as deluded as he sounds. For now though, I don't think he's scum.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve crazy ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim". Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

[JoshTheStampede]

As for my vote, the three people on my wagon had totally valid reasons to be there, though of course I think the reasons are incorrect.

<snip>

I know I'm going to get accused of OMGUS here, but

unvote, vote cruelty

. Please note that I don't have any problem with the other people on my wagon, and so this is not an OMGUS vote.

This is kind of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't', but it's still a valid point: newbie town would be more likely to freak out and say "everyone who's voting me is scum" then to say "yeah, you're all reasonable people with valid points against me except this one."

I'm not really sure if you meant this to mean that I don't sound like a newbie, or that I don't sound like town. Can you elaborate?

[JoshTheStampede]

Would still like to hear more from people who haven't posted much at all, like Darox, zang, and easj0682. Some people haven't really posted much since we left RVS.

I realize it was Easter weekend and so people were probably busy, and so hopefully it will pick up in the next day or so.

[JoshTheStampede]

It's not that you didn't want him to claim, it's that your desire for him not to claim came after you asked for more info. Like you suddenly realised how bad you looked.

I don't care how bad it LOOKED. I realized how bad an idea it actually WAS.

I don't believe your initial intent was to prevent the claim, in fact, quite the opposite.

Ok. You're welcome to your opinion.

This would be a much more valid point if my vote wasn't justified by your actions. Should I have made up some other reason to vote for you? Am I not allowed to agree that (X) is scummy and is voteworthy? Get outta here son.

No, you shouldn't have made up any reasons to vote for me. But agreeing with what I think is a clearly insane position without being insane yourself is, in my opinion, scummy, hence my vote.

you're extraordinarily worried about it being OMGUS (really man, it's 2010, we're lax about that shit).

Fair enough. I play in some other places where people get pretty uptight about OMGUS votes, I guess.

[JoshTheStampede]

First thing, Slippery slope arguement is a genuine fallacy and it is here in the debated post. Just because one player make a claim doesn't mean that everyone will start claim their flavour role. Also you're being speculative with the role names, we can't know if the mod wouldv'e titled roles "vampire hunter" or with simpler, less obvious titles like "nobleman" or "fisher"

Its not a good idea to be "done arguing" in mafia it comes off as though the questions are unearthing something.

Yes, slippery slope is an actual logical fallacy. I may have even committed it. But I don't see at all how that was scummy. I just do not see how being overly concerned about claiming is scummy in any way, even if my logic was incorrect.

Also, I'm not done arguing altogether. I'm done arguing with SpyreX about that topic, because my pages of argument with him led me to believe he is either a crazy person or misinterpreting things on purpose, and I don't think arguing with him will accomplish anything other than spamming the thread and preventing other avenues of discussion. He thinks I'm scum, I think he's crazy, and we all know this now, along with reasons on both sides. Anything more between SpyreX and I at this point would just be shouting at each other, basically.

[JoshTheStampede]

You don't sound like newbie town. Meaning you are likely to be either someone's alt or (much more likely) scum.

Do you really think those are the only two options?

I'm new to this site, but not new to the game of Mafia. This is my 2nd game here. The other one is still ongoing.

[JoshTheStampede]

Bolding emphasis mine. You may disagree with SpreX’es thinking but the constant refrain that he’s crazy I find worth questioning. Do you really believe he is insane for attacking what can easily be seen as backpeddling on your part? Slinging insults is a common reaction fishing technique. Is this your normal style of scum-hunting?

I don't think he is literally a committable insane person, no. But almost all of his posts actually make zero sense to me. I'm not just slinging insults, I actually can't make heads or tails of most of what he says.

Maybe English isn't his first language, maybe he just has bad internet grammar, or maybe he's just using weird sayings I'm not used to because we're from different parts of the country or something, I don't know.

I used the word "crazy" rather than "wrong" because that's how the posts sound to me. It literally reads like he is either reading a completely different thread, or that he is misinterpreting everything so wildly that no reasonable person could honestly see things the way he claims to.

[JoshTheStampede]

how did you reach this conclusion?

I have an idea how he might have deduced it, but it's a stretch, so I second the request for him to explain.

[JoshTheStampede]

Hey CryMeARiver. Summary: vote Josh.

[JoshTheStampede]

At this point I'm happy with my vote on Josh for his contradiction and I'm dubious of Magna's softclaim quote.

To clarify, do you think my contradiction makes me scum? Or do you just want to lynch anyone who misspeaks or commits a logical fallacy? Remember the point of the game is to catch scum.

Think, long and hard, about how terrible a player I would have to be if I were scum, was one of three people who asked about a flavorclaim, and then immediately called myself out on it a few posts later. It makes no sense.

Which do you think is more likely: That I'm a townie who misspoke, or that I am literally the worst scum player ever?

[JoshTheStampede]

Which do you think is more likely: That I'm a townie who misspoke, or that I am literally the worst scum player ever?

Exaggerating the situation a little, aren't we?

Maybe a little. Answer the question.

[JoshTheStampede]

Just to be clear, using bolded "game code" to pretend to use powers you don't have is about the most unethical thing you can do in a game of Mafia without straight-up cheating.

I wasn't at home during the period so nothing came of it, but that's still a really shitty thing to do.

unvote

vote:ooba

[JoshTheStampede]

"All scummy things are directly related to me" - Josh

Nothing I said was remotely close to this, what the hell are you talking about?

[JoshTheStampede]

Oh shit,

Vote:Ooba

will post something relevant later

Would you mind clarifying the bolded reaction to my post?

I was suprised that you were a vig and that you killed Josh.

Well this reason doesn't gel with your next post where you claim you never even connected me with a suicide vig

I didn't connect that to him being a suicide vig. In that case

Unvote

If you actually thought I had killed Josh, your reaction should have been of curiosity to see what Josh turns up as. The very fact that you said "Oh shit" and proceeded to vote me gives me the impression that you already knew his town alignment.

Vote: Zang

Just to be clear, using bolded "game code" to pretend to use powers you don't have is about the most unethical thing you can do in a game of Mafia without straight-up cheating.

Don't want to get into an argument here and sidetrack the game, but calling it unethical is ridiculous. Best discussed in the MD forum later.

"All scummy things are directly related to me" - Josh

Of course, who am I to stand in the way of a bus. Only problem is that everything in this tryst points to Josh being a more valuable scum-PR.

Unvote, Vote: Ooba

"Hey this is just me hopping onto a growing wagon. I'm also trying to link a completely unrelated player to my scumbuddy (on whom I made a weak case and gave the appearance of attacking)"

FOS: SpyreX

I did know that you were a vig but I didn't know you were a suicide vig. And me saying "Oh shit" was meant to be like "oh shit, wow. I didn't expect ooba to be a vig," I didn't write that much because I had little time.

If you actually thought he was a vig, and believed him, then why would you vote him? Vigs are almost always town.

[JoshTheStampede]

Don't want to get into an argument here and sidetrack the game, but calling it unethical is ridiculous. Best discussed in the MD forum later.

Nice try to push discussion of this off for weeks, but it's not a stretch at all. It's unethical because Mafia is a game of deception and lies, but certain truths and rules exist and players trust in them to make the game work.

Such truths include "The mod will not outright lie to you" and "Votes and game-mechanical actions are real". It wouldn't have been unethical at all to simply claim vig and tell me you were going to kill me unless X. But you didnt do that. Instead you used the "game code" that we all trust as players, to try to get a reaction from someone that you would have been unable to get while actually following the rules.

Would you think it was ok if someone dropped a hammer vote and then said "Oh, wait, I was kidding, I just wanted to see how you would react when hammered"

[JoshTheStampede]

Mafia is a game of deception on both sides of the coin. Scum and innocents use any tactics within the rules to gain whatever desired effects are. In reviewing the rules I see no GM indicated prohibition about using in-game mechanics in a deceptive manner.

Ok, I guess that's how it works here. I play on other sites where trying to use powers you don't actually have is considered actual cheating and earns you a modkill or a warning. I'm not the only person in the thread who said it was unethical, so it's not just me. It never even occured to me that that was something you could do in a game of Mafia. To me it's like placing a vote that hammers someone just to see their twilight reaction, and then saying "Oh, wait, I was kidding that wasn't a real vote"

If it's a legal tactic here then ok, I'll have to remember that in the future. I still don't like it and everything I said about it stands. When someone says "kill: josh" in bold letters in some other game, I will assume he's lying until a mod tells me otherwise. I don't like that the rules force me to do that, but whatever.

[JoshTheStampede]

I guess our Mafia educations are greatly different ... I come from the standpoint that you can only trust what the GM tells you (and even then sometimes not even that). And the twilight hammer vote analogy is flawed in that a valid Hammer vote is locked in .. there is no way to remove it. From my time here I think GMs have generally taken a substance over form opinion when faced with votes that might be considered technically flawed.

What site did you migrate here from?

Fair enough.

I didn't really migrate. I still play mafia on SomethingAwful and I have played on some other sites in the past. I learned to play via the live version (Are You A Werewolf, etc), and have also played on IRC, epicmafia, etc.

[JoshTheStampede]

EBWOP: Messed up the formatting there. The quote was from Magna, not me, obviously.

Fixed -EB

[JoshTheStampede]

Meanwhile you’ve dodged my question as to why those conclusions were drawn and completely ignored the second part of Zang’s statement, which asks the same thing. Please provide your reasons Why they are scum, town and VT specifically.

Yup. How about that.

You can't really expect anyone to take your statements seriously if you refuse to explain them.

[JoshTheStampede]

Why is Josh still alive?

Did you miss the part where Ooba isn't really a vig and was just doing that to gauge my reaction?

[JoshTheStampede]

Nope. I'm asking why you haven't been lynched yet.

Oh, in that case it's because you don't really have a case on me, much less enough of one to pull of a turbolynch.

[JoshTheStampede]

off*

Yes, correct, my fault.

[JoshTheStampede]

You have to give us something to go on. Like I've pointed out before I see nothing except setup speculation and zero scumhunting from your side. even if you don't think "anybody is scum", I'd like your opinions on various players.

JoshTheStampede- I haven't really taken to like from the start
Zang- not much to say either way
Slaine Hayes- dodgy but don't think he's scummy
cruelty- not much to say either way
TheSkeward- not much to say either way
Yosarian2- seems to be chipping in on the scum hunt
SpyreX- dodgy
CryMeARiver- dont really have an opinion
MagnaofIllusion- is contributing to the hunt
Darox- think hes town
Ooba- dont know

That is a lot of words and pretty much no information.

With the exception of thinking Darox is town (for some reason you don't specify), every other one of those is extremely wishy-washy.

You dont like me. Great. Does that mean you think I'm scum or just that you think I'm an asshole?

SpyreX and Slaine are "dodgy" but you don't think Slaine is scum. Do you think SpyreX is scum? If not, what do you mean by dodgy? Do you mean it in the british sense of "suspicious" or in the more literal "trying to dodge" sense?

Yosarian and Magna are chipping into the scum hunt. Great. Does that mean you think they are town? If so, why didn't you just say "think he's town" like you did with Darox?

[JoshTheStampede]

Wooo.

Well, watching the pair of jumping posts parroting each other really makes me think easj is town THAT NEEDS TO PLAY THE GAME.

Seriously. Look at 261 and 262.

So you think that because Ooba and I didn't like easj's post, that easj must be town?

[JoshTheStampede]

Pretty much. Double parroting the power-lurker is an easy out.

How is it "double parroting"? We both copied each other? There's no chance that maybe one or both of us actually believed what we said? None at all?

Are you so tunneled on me that you think anyone I attack MUST be town, and anyone I agree with MUST be scum?

[JoshTheStampede]

Haha, awesome. You accuse me of parroting Ooba, and that must be some damning evidence on me. Even warranted a "wooo nelly".

And then when you realize you were wrong and backtrack on it, somehow it doesn't change your opinion of the situation. I'm still scum, apparently.

Hmm, who was it that was all over people for quickly changing their mind in successive posts and calling it scummy? Hmm, if only I could remember who that was...

Oh right.

unvote
vote SpyreX

[JoshTheStampede]

And thus the circle is complete. Remember my "Everything scummy revolves around me?" comment.

Yep.

You backtrack on rolefishing and then don't call Magna out on it? Check.
You vote for Ooba under the "I can't believe you would DO such a thing?" but don't even bat an eye when he parrots you? Check.
You ignore my very simple request for who your suspects are because, shock and awe, they totally revolve around you? Check.
You then vote for me (who totally wasn't scum earlier) because I made a mistake in how I read it AND try to compare that to your "changing your mind" business? Check.

Get 'er done. Ooba can rope tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Josh

Do you know why it seems like I think everything scummy revolves around me?

Because every time something happens, you explicitly call it back to me. This isn't me saying these things, dude. It's you.

When I voted for you way back when, you decided it was because I was scum.

When ooba did the fake-vig gambit, you said it was because I was a more valuable scum role than ooba.

When I didn't like a post easj made, and ooba didn't like the same post, you assumed it was because I was scum.

Almost every post you have made in this game has been about me. Even the one where you vote for Ooba you manage to talk about me being scum in the same post.

And when I point this out, you say that

I

am the one claiming all the scumminess revolves around me? You're SO POSITIVE that I am scum that everything you say and do in this game is pointed right at me. You're completely tunneled. You can't possibly believe that anything in this game happens for any reason other than "Josh is scum"?

[JoshTheStampede]

Who are your suspects, Josh?

Its not a hard question.

Well, originally I thought you were a townie who was just tunnelled on me. Then you kept pounding away at it and pounding away at it so I'm voting you because I now think you are scum trying to get more people to jump on the current vote leader (me) by making every single case somehow about me.

The Skeward has posted a lot less than you, but since RVS ended he has literally ZERO posts that are not directly about me. There's no cases, just "hey guys vote josh", and he also accuses me of being an alt and some other stuff. I think he's probably your scumbuddy and pushing the same wagon you are.

Cruelty jumped on what I considered to be a ludicrous case but that was days ago IRL and he hasn't really made much noise since then. So, FoS still on him, I guess, but I need to hear more.

Slaine Hayes and easj both have a bunch of posts that look like they wanted to up their post count without having much to say. That's minorly scummy, so I am keeping an eye on them.

[JoshTheStampede]

Well, originally I thought you were a townie who was just

tunnelled on me.

Then you kept pounding away at it and pounding away at it so I'm voting you because I now think you are scum trying to get more people to jump on the current vote leader (me) by making every single case somehow about me.

The Skeward has posted a lot less than you, but since RVS ended he has

literally ZERO posts that are not directly about me.

There's no cases, just "hey guys vote josh", and he also accuses me of being an alt and some other stuff. I think he's probably your scumbuddy and pushing the same wagon you are.

Cruelty jumped on what I considered to be a ludicrous case

but that was days ago IRL and he hasn't really made much noise since then. So, FoS still on him, I guess, but I need to hear more.

Slaine Hayes and easj both have a bunch of posts that look like they wanted to up their post count without having much to say. That's minorly scummy, so I am keeping an eye on them.

So... I guess I was wrong then.

You have two lurker suspects.

The other three, though.

I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Yes, I think it is scummy that you and Skeward have focused on me to the exclusion of every other player in the game, and that you are going out of your way to make every case about me, even when you vote for someone else. Anyone can look at your and Skeward's posts and see that this is what you are doing. It's not subtle or clever. Skeward has posts where he just says "Hey, vote josh!" and "Why isn't Josh lynched yet" and similar sentiments.

The fact that you then try to call ME out on "making everything scummy revolve around me" when YOU are, demonstrably, the one doing it is just adding insult to injury.

[JoshTheStampede]

Josh
- The slippery slope fallacy (If A roleclaims, then...)

Can you please explain to me how this is scummy? SpyreX wasn't able to clarify that for me.

I made a debate mistake and if anything it shows that I was TOO worried about preventing roleclaims. That's the opposite of scummy.

The point of the game is to find scum, not to win a debate.

[JoshTheStampede]

Oh, hi.

It seems I have a few votes.

I shall be reading and RUTHLESSLY SCUMHUNTING starting..... Now.


Anything that anyone might want to mention to me, mention away. I'm all ears.

I'm not going to mention anything because I am actually very interested in what someone thinks of the game so far when they weren't in the middle of it. I don't want to spoil it for you.

[JoshTheStampede]

Yea I never explained how slippery slope is scummy. I don't really think I need to delve in how overcompensation in trying to cover your dissonance is - and, further, you went "there's no slippery slope" sooo welll.

"I never explained how this was scummy, and I'm still not going to."

Also, who's Jack?

[JoshTheStampede]

Name slip.

Glad you globbed onto that though.

"I actually gave the most basic example in the fake quoting you gave thanks for playing get lynched tia"

Didn't glob onto anything, I was actually confused about who you meant.

Also your 2nd part makes no sense. I'm not trying to make fun of you here, I just have no idea what "I actually gave the most basic example in the fake quoting you gave thanks for playing get lynched tia" means. Well, I understand the thanks for playing get lynched part just fine, but everything before that is greek to me.

Are you claiming that this:

Yea I never explained how slippery slope is scummy. I don't really think I need to delve in how overcompensation in trying to cover your dissonance is - and, further, you went "there's no slippery slope" sooo welll.

...is supposed to be an explanation of why me being too concerned with roleclaiming makes me scum? Because I'm not seeing that.

[JoshTheStampede]

I have read through page 6. I have to do some actual, you know, work today, so the remainder of the thread will have to wait till tonight.

Some impressions:

-- I have run across "tech" on his very site before. It seems to be a young person thing (I'm older than dirt).
-- I'm not thrilled that Darox said he was an Innkeeper.
-- I'm even less thrilled that the bloody discussion of same went on for, like, forty pages afterwards (although, it may have helped with scumhunting).
-- Very skeptical of Josh.
-- SpyreX

is

acting differently here. (I know, meta BAD blah blah)

More later tonight.

Meta is only bad when it's the whole case. It can be very useful as a supplement to a case.

How is he acting differently? Townier? Scummier? What?

[JoshTheStampede]

And I've already explained in minute detail so that even you couldn't be confused about why I called Ooba town, and thus you wouldn't need to post this useless note.

But you should already know that if you were actually reading the game.

This is a huge pile of bullshit. Your "minute detail" was literally "Ooba is town because I say he is".

[JoshTheStampede]

Well, lets try this again then:

You said that I've never explained why its scummy in detail. Which is true. Because, I really don't think it needs explanation (and the fact that you went "Nope, didn't do it" meant the point of trying to explain it to the masses to lynch you was going to be a waste of time if they didn't see it already)

But, allow me to expand.

The Slippery Slope can be scummy in a myriad of ways. Not to waste too much time I'll delve specifically into this version of it: justification for an action.

Again, I'll put this up:

Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment. Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

Darox, you really should not claim or tell us anything about your role, even the flavor, unless you really have to.

:then a discussion of what actual roleclaiming, etc, etc:

THEN:

This is very true. It's also dangerous even if the particular name is not a giveaway, because it might lead to others nameclaiming when they DO have more obvious flavor connections.

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

So, why is this scummy?

Initially, you have a case of severe cognitive dissonance in the "flavor" "don't give flavor". When called out on it you've opted with

a scenario that isn't going to happen. Ever. Not in a million years.

This kind of chicken-little fear mongering is scummy. It always is. When its used as a defense for a different stronger and more braver scummy action well.

----

NS - I'm not a young duckling by any means.

And while not jovial, sure... but not outspoken? REALLY?

(and I'm not stoked about "I've read through page 6" "this discussion went on pages afterwards")

Actually, dude, thank you.

I disagree with you of course, but this is the first time I actually understood your thought process or motivation for anything you said about me, so thank you for clarifying.

[JoshTheStampede]

Oh excuse me. It wasn't "Ooba is town because I say he is". It's "Ooba is town because I said he is and have no evidence or reason other than gut feeling".

Thanks for clearing up that minute detail, bro.

[JoshTheStampede]

Yup.

And now you realize there is nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with having gut feelings about someone, no.

But if that's all you have, you can't act like it's contributing or scumhunting.

You're just randomly spouting "PLAYER X IS TOWN PLAYER Y IS SCUM".

[JoshTheStampede]

Actually, it is my opinion that YOU are the one purposefully misinsterpreting things -- you went on and on about "I don't want to hear 'slippery slope' and I won't entertain this argument any further" -- and now you're trying to say you know what a slippery slope argument is? Please, get lynched.
.

You know I thought about claiming or trying to get out of being lynched but then I realized that if I was successful all I would get out of it is having to continue playing in a game with SpyreX and Co. for another few weeks and honestly fuck that so

unvote
vote JoshTheStampede