Mini 948 - Victorian Vampire - Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: Yosarian2

for apparently having a Kingdom of Loathing forum account ...

And rather than just end with that fluff I'd like to ask a couple of questions ...

1. Anyone here have any long-standing grudges or odd personal history?
2. What's your favorite implement when cornering a vampire, werewolf or science abomination - pitchfork or flaming torch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So as not to be a hypocrit and ask general questions without answering myself -

1. No grudges or history.
2. Fire is cleansing ... torch away!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: Yosarian2

for apparently having a Kingdom of Loathing forum account ...

Lol, yeah, that's me.

If you are brave (or foolhardy) take a stroll down to Hopsotch and look at the horribly bastard-modded games there.

And if you see someone with the same username as mine here that's totally a completely different person.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hmm? Is trying to get the game moving forward scummy now?

I agree ... rather odd to strike hard at someone trying to move us to actual scum-hunting.

Unvote, Vote: CrymeaRiver

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have a minor surgery tomorrow; nothing serious, but I don't know what to expect recovery-wise so there may be some delay in responses as I stew in chemical happiness over the weekend.

Good luck .. minor or no you never take surgery lightly. And make sure to enjoy your chemical happiness!

Unvote, Vote: Ooba

Not that some actual discussion is forming I'd like to here some more chit-chat from the quietest Cat in the room.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That makes L-1.

In other words, "scumbuddies, hammer freely"

Unvote, Vote: Darox

Do you honestly believe that? If anything quicklynching this early into Day 1 is a recipie for Day 2 lynch for sure.

If anything Darox is trying to get town points for making sure no-one inadvertantly hammers. The warning assures if anyone does they have no excuse for their behavior.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is quickly reminding me of a game where scum did what Darox did as a warning, presumably for town points, and noob town hammered.

Have you ever had games where an Innocent also made that sort of post? If not your sample size is a wee bit small. I've seen both Mafians and Innocents make those sorts of posts.

I don't think Darox gets points for the statement. But assuming that he must be scum is a foolish as assuming he must be town. It's null.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think this pressure on me is due to
a) Bandwagoning to get some discussion started
b) And partly due to the fact that I had just made one post in the game and hadn't contributed

Now that I've responded - I think I've addressed part b ..
.

My question to you is this -

Is lack of significant contributions to the game unless pressured behavior we should expect on a regular basis?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It is quite possible that the only way to answer for part A is to claim or to make a hell of a defense.

Again another post that makes no sense. What sort of defense can he mount other than 'I'm more active'? Because the wagon basically formed around his lack of activity.

Unvote, Vote: CryMeARiver

I didn't like how quickly you jumped on Yosarian for attempting to move out of the fluff stage and I'm not thrilled with what here reads like a soft role-fish attempt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Popping in to say I'll be V/LA until later on Monday ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. It does make sense. They formed the wagon for information, who they targeted with it does not matter. If the wagon breaks apart just because he posted, they are back in square one, therefore I do not think it will just disappear. I do not agree with a claim out of Ooba and I do think the wagon should just dissipate, but try convincing the wagon of that.
2. I did not jump on Yosarian. I completely agreed that we should get the game moving forward. I just chose a different target with my attempted wagon.
3. I am not rolefishing and I highly disagree with a claim, I was just stating that it might come down to one.

I’m not going to let this just slide. Regarding your points –

1. Are you trying to tell us you know the motivation and reasonings for everyone who voted for Ooba? Because this sort of generalization is pure crap. I, who was on the bandwagon, voted for Ooba since he had exactly 1 post (confirming) and I wanted to see some contribution out of his slot.
3. You were role-fishing. You, who were not on the bandwagon, make a statement that a great defense (which is impossible given he was basically wagoned for RVS / inactivity reasons) or a claim might be the only way to make the wagon go away. You left an open-ended, soft request for a role-claim out there when you yourself were not on the wagon. It’s a perfect role-fishing chance since you can say, as you did above, “I didn’t want the claim, it was those on the bandwagon”. Not a single person who have voted for him even hinted at wanting a claim.

For clarity here are the original statements.

Ooba’s statement –

a) Bandwagoning to get some discussion started
b) And partly due to the fact that I had just made one post in the game and hadn't contributed

Your direct response –

It is quite possible that the only way to answer for part A is to claim or to make a hell of a defense.

But I'll keep my FoS on, like you, I don't really feel the need to move my votes or FoS's unless I have good reason to.

Why do you put such emphasis on FOSes as something of import? They are but an artifical construct by which to signify a certain stenght of your commentary. No-one (at least that I have ever seen) UnFOSes.

Yes, I was "fishing" for scum. Or, to be precise to see if the "why" for such an odd statement led to something far more interesting.

The inference here is that you have some inkling that some sort of game mechnics are involved that render the “links to the dead” important. So some might suspect you of having insider information that would be reasonable for a Mafian to possess.

I don’t agree that it is anything vote-worthy but to instantly ascribe sinister motives to everyone who questions you is a stretch at this point.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure EB (our mod) is smart enough to give the flavour roles no connection to their alignment role

Interesting commentary. Are you suggesting that perhaps an Innkeeper might be a Mafian type involved in waylaying Townies? And why not put forth the assumption that EB might have crafted safe-claims instead?

I'm embracing the ability to throw my vote around in this game. It's liberating.

Your softclaim of VT is noted.

Cruelty, however, chimed in just to say he agreed with SpyreX's

crazy

"point", and threw his vote in too, in what I think is a huge opportunistic bandwagon vote. It's not scummy to be

insane

. It is scummy to claim to agree with illogical cases just so you can vote.

I think SpyreX is just an

insane

townie who has tunneled onto me for reasons beyond my comprehension, but with every post he makes I question whether anyone could really be as

deluded

as he sounds.

I would really, really like to hear from anyone else in this game about pretty much anything that doesn't involve

crazy

ranting from SpyreX or the words "slippery slope" or "roleclaim".

Posts that don't sound like they were run through Babelfish a few times would be a plus, too.

Bolding emphasis mine. You may disagree with SpreX’es thinking but the constant refrain that he’s crazy I find worth questioning. Do you really believe he is insane for attacking what can easily be seen as backpeddling on your part? Slinging insults is a common reaction fishing technique. Is this your normal style of scum-hunting?

You don't sound like newbie town. Meaning you are likely to be either someone's alt or (much more likely) scum.

Pardon my asking but how do you know what a newbie town is supposed to sound like? You have an even later join date than Josh. Does that make you an alt? Also, what relevance does the relative new-ness (or lack thereof) to MS have to do with someone’s alignment?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod received ... tax season is coming to an end and I've been working too long hours this last week.

Post with content coming Sunday in the afternoon. Till then sleep.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again I would like to apologize for my lack of activity. Not to say that I don’t have a good reason – I’m a CPA in the most hectic period of my profession’s year. Generally I’m more consistently active in games than I am here. Rest assured this last week has been an aberration. You will not see low activity from me again.

Moving on to game related topics – this is going to be a large catch-up post. Often people point to these posts by me as walls of text and decry them. But I’m not going to change my posting style, which I feel is effective long-term in hunting scum.

@ Sprex at 175 –

Firstly I had already ‘noticed’ as you put it Josh’s comments. That comment had clearly already been well covered by your back and forth. Notice that my question to Josh regarding his specific use of language meant to be inflammatory at 172. Do you think there’s any ground not covered by your interrogation? Josh, in my mind, clearly backtracked.

Secondly I don’t know what you’re going on about regarding your lack of clarity if you are addressing me. Josh is the one who made those statements.

Lastly please don’t assume your analysis of Josh is enough, especially this early in the game, for me to sheep along. I don’t need someone “to claim Mafia” to scumhunt. Sorry that my methods differ from yours.

I think the first jump onto me was leaping for a distraction. Especially considering Manga deserved no mention. He even quoted the post Manga did it.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? Because I see it as the following –

Josh jumped unto you as a distraction and quoted me (who is Magna not Manga BTW) while doing so. In ISO’ing Josh’s posts I only see that he only quoted me (as far as I can tell) at ISO 28. If you could clarify I’d greatly appreciate it.

how did you reach this conclusion?

Conclusion? It was a testing statement. I wanted to see Cruelty’s reaction, and the one given I found reasonable for someone making an offhand statement.

The logical path to follow based on his assessment of “being able to sling his vote around” is that he isn’t a power role and not scum. Both types of players who want, generally, to not raise any more suspicion than necessary in scumhunting (or leading in the case of Mafia). A VT has no important night powers to lose and thus can be more free with Vote / Analysis / Accusations. Of course given everything EB has said about the game and its subtext this isn’t anything but a WIFOM exercise. Which is why it was a reaction exercise and not a statement I believe 100% to be fact.

Hey CryMeARiver. Summary: vote Josh.

I still have a question from 172 waiting for your response please.

At this point I'm happy with my vote on Josh for his contradiction and I'm dubious of Magna's softclaim quote.

If you were really dubious you would have said something back with your first response. Any reason why you waited until after the hue and cry from Sprex, Darox and easjo before expressing it?

I was suprised that you were a vig and that you killed Josh.

Why were you surprised he wasn’t a Vig?

I've never seen that gambit before but not a fan, seems unethical. -1 cool point m'man.

Aside from the fact that cool points mean nothing what about the play seems unethical to you? It was a pressure tactic.

Such truths include "The mod will not outright lie to you" and "Votes and game-mechanical actions are real". It wouldn't have been unethical at all to simply claim vig and tell me you were going to kill me unless X. But you didnt do that. Instead you used the "game code" that we all trust as players, to try to get a reaction from someone that you would have been unable to get while actually following the rules.

Mafia is a game of deception on both sides of the coin. Scum and innocents use any tactics within the rules to gain whatever desired effects are. In reviewing the rules I see no GM indicated prohibition about using in-game mechanics in a deceptive manner.

@ CryMe – I’ve not been the most active but I’d like some input from you please.

Unvote, Vote: Josh

. Your reaction to Ooba's gambit stirs my interest enough to move my vote to you. I don't like your original backtrack, your casual use of words like crazy or insane in describing a perfectly reasonable interpretation of events or your overt reaction to Ooba's gambit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, I guess that's how it works here. I play on other sites where trying to use powers you don't actually have is considered actual cheating and earns you a modkill or a warning. I'm not the only person in the thread who said it was unethical, so it's not just me. It never even occured to me that that was something you could do in a game of Mafia. To me it's like placing a vote that hammers someone just to see their twilight reaction, and then saying "Oh, wait, I was kidding that wasn't a real vote"

I guess our Mafia educations are greatly different ... I come from the standpoint that you can only trust what the GM tells you (and even then sometimes not even that). And the twilight hammer vote analogy is flawed in that a valid Hammer vote is locked in .. there is no way to remove it. From my time here I think GMs have generally taken a substance over form opinion when faced with votes that might be considered technically flawed.

What site did you migrate here from?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI.

Case solved.

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

As much as I appreciate enthusiasm could you point to a few points that make it clear where you are coming from with these three points?

Especially in regarding to Spyrex and Ooba.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know what you are asking me here because in the post you quoted I was saying that I was suprised he was a vig.

So are you asking why I was surpised that ooba was a vig or why I was suprised when I learned he wasn't a vig?

In my rush to make sure I got content in I clearly butchered that question. Let me clarify the question. Here are your series of Posts regarding the Ooba gambit.

Oh shit,

Vote:Ooba

will post something relevant later

I didn't connect that to him being a suicide vig. In that case

Unvote

I did know that you were a vig but I didn't know you were a suicide vig. And me saying "Oh shit" was meant to be like "oh shit, wow. I didn't expect ooba to be a vig," I didn't write that much because I had little time.

Your post at 201 shows surprise to me that Ooba has made a Dayvig. Why?

Since I’ve had to revisit I have another question also. Did you not read Ooba’s post, since you unvote at 204 because you didn't realize he was a suicide vig? Ooba clearly states he’s dead – “This also means I’m dead. Hope it was worth it.”

How?

Because if you actually think about it, it's not.

Meanwhile you’ve dodged my question as to why those conclusions were drawn and completely ignored the second part of Zang’s statement, which asks the same thing. Please provide your reasons Why they are scum, town and VT specifically.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup. How about that.

Ok, so you are going to active lurk and not involve yourself when directly questioned. Noted.

Why is Josh still alive?

This is not the first time this has been mentioned but if you aren’t going to provide some actual content replace out will you?

@easjo – Regarding post 260 could you please give some reasons (ie ISOs) for those you feel are dodgy in your summary? I’d like to know what exactly about those players you don’t like.

Well, watching the pair of jumping posts parroting each other really makes me think easj is town THAT NEEDS TO PLAY THE GAME.

Do you think easjo’s post is anything other than fluffy filler? He doesn’t given reasons for a single one of his ‘reads’ and considereds no-one scummy.

This guy, though, needs more votes on him. This post was on Sunday, and he hasn't posted since.

I agree and since he’s already receiving pressure Slaine is a logical choice.

However I’d like for everyone to also note TheSkeward and CryMe. Both are just as inactive and non-scumhunting as Slaine. And I know from other threads that CryMe has been active on the site.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome Nobody – get to you ruthless scum-hunting …

Is there anything in particular you'd like to know?

I’d like to know pretty much any insight you have into the game and it’s players. Right now the most prominent contribution to the game has been to vote Josh based on a few posts two weeks ago and post a nice picture of a flamethrower.

What are your thoughts on Ooba’s gambit? On Darox’s love of active lurking. On the fact that you, easjo and CryMe are just plain lurking.

Sorry guys, been working on an ISO of my suspect and have read through the thread quite a bit. Should be up tonight.

Assuming your suspect is Slaine (who is now Nobody Special) when can we expect the rest of your case at 287? Or is this enough that you think you can go back to lurking?

Active lurking is fun.

Really? I thought it was more clearly anti-town / scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Darox.

The casual manner in which you ignore actually contributing until you get a vote makes me slightly angry, and I don’t think I’m the only one. Active lurking is not Pro-town. Giving the reason that a player is Town is ‘cause I say so’ is also not Pro-town.

Lastly I’ll be V/LA from 4pm today until Monday the 19th.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A self hammer ... sigh.

If you are scum thanks I guess. If not learn to replace out if you dislike the playerbase or grow some thicker skin.

[MagnaofIllusion]

don't think it was a hammer. in fact, i'm pretty sure you know it wasn't too.

I'm pretty sure if I knew it wasn't I wouldn't have posted that

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is this not a hammer? Mod?

Nice of you to pop back up just to notice this .... what happened to your reads you promised not so long ago?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My read is still on Slaine Hayes. I placed a small case forward on him, then he replaced out. I still think that spot is scummy.

He was replaced. Providing more would be kind of ridiculous since it'd be hard for him to respond.

So you find the slot scummy but don’t have anything from NS’s play that supports this continued assertion? Are you just going to look at only that slot or do you think you might actually start scum-hunting today?

If people are serious about making some conclusions about the Josh wagon the fact that Josh was an “Isolated Traitor” instead of just “Traitor” might be a good place to start when deciding who might or might not have known indentities.

Actually, I didn't see anything particulary scummy about Josh. Sadly I was mistaken

I just want to be clear … the only reason you voted for Josh was his self-vote?

Given we have at least one Miller in the game it’s certain some sort of cop is involved. Also given what I’ve seen regarding Vig variants in the past I suspect Yos wasn’t the only Miller / Weak Vig out there.

@easjo – Let’s hear something from you.

I’ll be V/LA starting at 4pm EDT today until Friday morning the 30th for a Cruise, so if there is anything you want to hear from me I have until 4pm to respond.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Offical Note - I'll be V/LA until April 30th.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna: When you posted your second last post (before the V\LA notice), you must have been able to see Cruelty's vote. Why didn't you ask him anything about it?

Because the only reason for vote from the blue like that is reaction fishing. I don’t see any point in responding to what amounts to an RVS style vote. Had he attempted, for example, to put some sort of case with it I would have responded. But he didn’t.

ooba i aint gonna answer that right now.

So you placed a vote with no support and aren’t going to bother to respond when questioned why? That’s certainly not pro-town in any way, shape or form. I see you responded much later (444) but the attitude you are expressing still is not pro-town.

While this makes me a little it did give me a missing the trees for the forest moment: Josh was a Doctor.

No way in hell he didn't know who the scum were.

If this circumstance is indeed the set-up and he was a traitor then logically the Mafia didn’t know his identity. So anyone attacking him (including yourself) should get no ‘town cred’, as it were, regarding lynching Josh.

well i guess that'd depend on the reason for my prod - was i bored with the stagnation, or did my inactivity cause said stagnation?

You were proded for not posting. Whether you were bored or not is irrelevant. Not posting and then complaining you were bored is just plain stupid. The game is as active as all the participants make it.

Just curious – what brought about this question?

Given that you were a part of Weeds Mafia also I should think you would know exactly why I posted this. For those interested look up Mini 938 and specifically Ythan and McGriddle. Knowing players have a history (usually involving animosity) is something I want to know when assesseing their interactions with each other.

also lol @ bringing up my speedlynch post. world's most brazen scum, right here. gimme a break.

Then are you the world’s worst town scumhunter? What possible pro-town purpose does the original post have? Answering the valid point about the post by WIFOMing that ‘no scum would make a post like that’ is even scummier.

Nobody I'd like to see your response to TheSkeward and Cry's cases on you.

@Zang could you elaborate a bit on your suspicions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, easjo hasn't posted anything this day except a V/la notice which is expired (as you can tell by the prod). But now that I look back at the skeward I don't really see him as scum. So I'll vote for easjo,

Now that easjo is being replaced you have removed your vote. Do you have any suspicions at this point or are you just content to hang out?

Hey cruelty. CMAR lynch isn't happening today. NS is where it's at. Switch?

Do you honestly believe that your case is so overwhelming that people should just blindly follow? Posts like this tend to work for players with a strong personality and established rep. Neither of which I think you have.

Also CMAR, your case doesn't really have weight because it doesn't show any behaviour with obvious scum motivation and it doesn't explain why said behaviour is suspicious.

But CMAR didn’t ask why his case was ineffective. He asked why people keep repeating he hasn’t provided the content he said he would. Because he did. It’s not great content at all but it was content.

I’ll have to take some time to review NS ... his dismissal of the case outright without bothering to address the individual points doesn’t sit well with me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Posting to say a large catc-up post coming in the AM.

Also welcome VV, your long post I'm sure will provide plenty of discussion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI.

Given you have not mentioned Sprex once today I feel the need to ask – is he still scum in your eyes? Or was, as you put it at ISO 26 “totally random you guys”. If so why were you random voting well out of RVS?

Cruelty needs to stop being scum.

Is cruelty still scum? Beyond NS (and I still assume CMAR) who do you find most suspicious?

I seem to have replaced into a extreme lurker spot. If my town reads ever found my predecessor's lurkiness malicious, feel free to ask. I think I can explain why she lurked like a mofo but I don't think I should yet.

Does the explanation have nothing to do with in-game but rely solely on easjo meta? Because otherwise the only other explanation you could offer is role-based. Given you specifically pointed out soft-claim / claim requests as something you didn’t like out of CMAR, myself, ooba I really would like to know if you are inviting requests for some variety of claim yourself. That would seem to be inconsistent. Note that I want nothing of a claim from you just information as to were your explanation comes from.

Just because I have removed my vote doesn't mean I think he isn't scum, im going to see how his replacement handles things and then decide if I should vote for him. I also have a few minor suspicouns but nothing really voteworthy at the moment.

You don’t necessarily have to vote to act on your suspicions. You could work up some questions for those who are triggering your scum radar. In reviewing your ISO you really haven’t advanced any siginificant arguments or questions at players.

Your vote, up until you hammered hung on Darox for the significant amount of Day1. Specifically you said this regarding Darox versus Easjo –

easjo
- Easily the worst amongst the lurkers
- Active lurking: Has time to answer what a kiwi is, but not the questions posed to him on his previous analysis
- Hasn't taken a stance (Disregarding the previous post)

I disagree, Darox is the worst of the active lurkers. He still hadn't said why he thinks you (Ooba) are scum.

This was two days before the lynch was made. What changed about your suspicion or lack thereof for Darox that you make no mention of him after night?

@ Cruelty (and others using it as a main tent-pole of their case]– regarding the ISO lack of CMAR comment by Josh –

if he never mentioned you, then it seems to me to be a reasonable conclusion that you're either so townie that he thought he had no chance of getting you lynched, or he didn't want you lynched.

Did you read through the Josh ISO yourself? He voted for Darox, ooba, Sprex, cruelty, ooba, Sprex and finally himself. The majority of his day Josh spent responding and reacting as opposed to actively questioning anyone. He was definitely on the defensive. Isn't just a reasonable an argument that he had little interaction with CMAR because CMAR didn't question / attack him? If so and you consider that the Mafia didn't know Josh's identity its poor logic to link him to Josh in this manner.

i thought magna's post was dubious but given i had no real reason to be suspicious of him at the time, it didn't seem worth getting into.

So you thought that one post was dubious enough to receive a vote but not actually discuss it? And you dropped a vote right out of Day 2 when you had no real reason to be suspicious?

Later today or Friday I’ll take a detailed look at NS’s contributions and decide if the case against him is strong enough to warrant a vote. If not cruelty will be receiving it for his general lack of scum-hunting, the quick-lynch comment and his resulting WIFOM defense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey, do you know Ythan? You two would get along famously.

QFT.

Posts in one liners and doesn't answer questions? Check.
Flies of the handle when pressured about poor play? Check.
Responds mostly with insults as opposed to logic? Check.
Has a significantly overstated opinion of his own play? Check.

[MagnaofIllusion]

#1: Spyrex

Posts where I talk about him being scummy. #1 #2 #3 #4

#2: Cruelty

Posts where I personally mention Cruelty. #1 #2

If filtered out all the fourth grade level of name-calling and insults to see your actual point.

Regarding Sprex 1 and 2 are simple questions. 3 is the ever useful Obvscum statemenet and 4 is the only post where you actually assert something that might be considered a case.

Regarding Cruelty – 1 isn’t even directed at him and 2 is your very useful ‘Stop being scum’ statement. If you are town why bother to tell him to stop being scum? Because hunting scum is what you are supposed to be doing. Oh that’s right … you’re too cool to actually hunt and just want to cost through making glib comments.

Here’s a tip – Asking you to be clear about what you say isn’t stupid. Your ‘case’ on Sprex and cruelty were just non-commital comments you can walk away from. Wow, guess what … you did just that. Pro-town play involves clearly stating what your stance or opinions are. Don’t like that? Tough. I don’t have to like your style of play any more than you do mine (as you pointed out so childishly in ISO 21.)

I’d vote for you but figure at this point you’d make better Vigbait if we do have any remaining.

Nobody Special is online. Post. I would post the screenshot, but IDK how.

Stalking someone’s online status isn’t really Pro-town.

Also, @ Manga: I really like that post, but does your final statement:

If not cruelty will be receiving it for his general lack of scum-hunting, the quick-lynch comment and his resulting WIFOM defense.

not comply with Skeward too? What are your thoughts on him?

I don’t think WIFOMing or the quick-lynch comment applies to TheSkeward. His Day 1 play was absolutely horrid. I’m also not a fan of his quick Day 2 vote on Nobody Special when he makes NO mention of SH / NS Day 1 and said in ISO 13 that cruelty was his top replacement choice for Josh. If he hadn’t flip-flopped so heavily between NS and you Day 2 I’d almost associate it with a guilty read. His buddying with Darox is also so blatant it can’t be a Mason style role.

Cruelty still sits higher on the scum ladder in my mind than Skeward.

And given that the lynch today looks solidly between NS and CMAR I’m going to but my vote on NS.

Vote: Nobody Special.

I don’t see anything that bears any resemblance to “ruthless scumhunting”. ISO 2 is full of statements that sound like you are taking a stand but stop well short of calling anyone scummy.

-- I have run across "tech" on his very site before. It seems to be a young person thing (I'm older than dirt).
-- I'm not thrilled that Darox said he was an Innkeeper.
-- I'm even less thrilled that the bloody discussion of same went on for, like, forty pages afterwards (although, it may have helped with scumhunting).
-- Very skeptical of Josh.
-- SpyreX is acting differently here. (I know, meta BAD blah blah)

1. Tech comment adds nothing to actual discussion.
2. Being ‘not thrilled’ means what? That you don’t like gambits? That you find him scummy for faux-claiming?
3. You are even less thrilled with no player in particular.
4. You are skeptical? Of the player under heavy fire who you still can’t commit to saying is scummy?
5. Acting differently means what? In ISO 6 you say he’s acting scummier based solely on being less jovial (seriousness isn’t a scumtell) and less outspoken (which seems downright wrong given Sprex’s activity to that point). So he’s scummy for meta reasons but you don’t bother to reference where you got this suspicion from also.

Your remaining Day 1 posts say nothing about a single other player. Your reaction at ISO 5 is just plain odd. Being literal is a very good thing in the context of the game. Moving to Day 2 - ISO 14 your response to the speed-lynch comment from Cruelty also is scummy given how early in the day it was.ISO 17 - What happened to your easjo case? ISO 21 – WIFOM about cruelty’s being town further makes me believe you are scum.

Still waiting for the Darox case you said was coming after your VV response.

Finally as usual will be V/LA Saturday and Sunday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd be posting here to say that I'd be back with a comprehensive post later ...

but then the hammer.

Let me just say for the record that the fact that no-one seems to have considered the possibility of fake-claims provided by the Mod I find odd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And what's a Spiritualist?

Do you not even bother to read the thread. CMAR explained in detail his abilities to communicate with those who were dead.

And given that we are in a potential MLYO situation I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on mass-claiming.

Quote tags fixed -EB

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I butchered that quote ...

Also I will be V/LA after 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome to Victorian Vampire! I suggest you add the topic to your Watch list and read over the rules.

You are Gerald the Tailor, a member of the Angry Mob. After misinterpreting a comment about your prowess at pest control the town has thrust you forward as champion. Every night you can attack a player; if more of the Angry Mob comes to your assistance then your victim will die a horrible and gruesome death. You win with town.

Please reply to this message with the name of your role to confirm that you have read the rules. Good luck!

Angry Mob actions -

N1 - CryMeARiver
N2 - Nobody Special

The Skeward next

[MagnaofIllusion]

So in summary our claims are –

Ooba – VT
Zang – Weak Vig
Darox – VT
Cruelty – Cop
Magna – Weak Vig
Skeward - Role-blocker
Sprex – Weak Vig

So throwing aside the fact that there are at least two fake claims the claims as made would give us the following town make-up as far as power-roles are concerned.

Cop – Roleblocker – Vigilante (with up to two kills per night)

The claims in my mind only clear Cruelty. In a game with a Miller it is a certainty there is a Cop role on the innocent side. I also believe that this means there is an investigation immune Mafia role.

Setting it up now so that you can claim miller later?

In 382 you asked CMAR about this when he agreed with my assertion that there were probably other Miller / Weak Vigs in the game. Why did you not question me along the same lines?

@ SpreX – You voted for CMAR based on Josh’s ISO in 386. At 395 CMAR posts the following –

No where have I ever seen a miller who knows he is a miller because then they would just claim miller and mafia would be able to claim miller. That's stupid.
Yes, I have been speculating about the setup. I've been thinking about "weak vig". Weak doc is if they protect mafia, then they die. This would not make sense for a vig though, since shooting mafia and then dying is stupid and defeats the purpose of a vig. So the only thing I could come up with is that they can't choose who they shoot at night.

Thinking about the flavor of the game, I thought of a mob killing a monster. So there might be a group of weak vigs?

This is all speculation of course and I can guarantee that my role PM does not tell me any of this

He has specifically hit dead-on the mechanic (bolded) for your role, as shown your claim. Did this not scream to you (at that point, before we knew he could talk to the dead AKA Yosarian) that he was a member of the Mob?

@ Skeward – Why did you immediately vote for Darox at the start of the day? During Day 2 you seemed pretty comfortable that you were on the same wavelength as him (ISO 32).

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, it doesn't clear you, because as it has been pointed out, fake claims being provided for scum in a game with mod quoting is almost assured

The question then becomes what is the likelihood that the GM gave a fake claim that exactly matches a role from the game. I believe the answer is pretty darn unlikely. Given the text of Zang’s PM and the fact he went first among the Angry Mob claimers I’m willing to say he’s very likely Town.

Except for, of course, the fact he didn't hit it dead on or even a little bit AND said it was speculation.

That looked like a bit of fishing to see if someone would go "ohh yea thats totally how it works".

I disagree that it looked like fishing. If you thought that then why didn't you call him on it the moment it happened instead of waiting till well after the fact?

“he didn’t hit it dead on or even a little bit” – Let’s examine the three lines in question.

So the only thing I could come up with is that they can't choose who they shoot at night. Thinking about the flavor of the game, I thought of a mob killing a monster. So there might be a group of weak vigs?

Line 1 “So the only thing I could come up with is that they can’t choose who they shoot at night.”

I read this as “Weak Vigs can’t simply choose a victim and bam it happens”. This is accurate, as the kill depends on coordination with other Mob members.

Line 2 “Thinking about the flavor of the game, I thought of a mob killing a monster.” This is a description of how the weak vig mechanic works. He even uses the word Mob.

Line 3 “So there might be a group of weak vigs?” – Absolutely correct.

As for the whole speculation line what else do you expect to be said given how negatively everyone reacted to suspected role fishing / claiming on Day 1?

If CMAR had a.) actually got it right or b.) instead of playing slappywags at that point just laid out what was actually going on instead of dancing well.

The point remains – I saw what he said and immediately thought “He’s part of the Mob” and thus never voted for him despite the fact that he was my Night 1 target. You say it wasn’t clear. I disagree. Let’s ask Zang, the only semi-confirmed claimed Mob member what he thought.

@ Zang – What did you think when you saw CMAR’s post regarding the Vig mechanics?

Since I thought something like our current situation and Sprex's attack might happen I'm going to highlight my breadcrumbs that I made Day 1.

A

gain I would like to apologize for my lack of activity.

N

ot to say that I don’t have a good reason – I’m a CPA in the most hectic period of my profession’s year.

G

enerally I’m more consistently active in games than I am here.

R

est assured this last week has been an aberration.

Y

ou will not see low activity from me again.

M

oving on to game related topics – this is going to be a large catch-up post.

O

ften people point to these posts by me as walls of text and decry them.

B

ut I’m not going to change my posting style, which I feel is effective long-term in hunting scum.

Emphasis added, of course.

Unvote, Vote: Darox. The casual manner in which you ignore actually contributing until you get a vote makes me slightly

angry, and I don’t think I’m the only one

.

Emphasis added. An attempt to signal who was originally my Night 1 target. Zang, did you pick up on this? If so I’m sorry … at the last second I rethought based on CMAR’s end of Day play and changed my target.

That out of the way let’s address a mistake I made in the town power role structure that no-one seems to have noticed

I forgot to include CMAR’s Spiritualist (Neighbor for the Dead, I guess is the best description) in the Town Role list. Corrected, the claims are as follows –

1 Cop
1 Spiritualist
1 Role-blocker
4 Weak Vigs.

Given we’ve not had any apparent 3rd Party kills I’m going to say there isn’t a Serial Killer role involved. We have to decide whether four power roles for town seems probable given the following hypothetical set-up for the Mafia

Godfather (scan resisitant)
Doctor
Goon / Other Role (Role Blocker suggested by Sprex)

I’m certainly willing to be guinea pig target for Zang and Sprex’s Mob action tonight. If Sprex is lying the Mafia will likely have to decide between killing me to maintain his fake-claim or killing the Cop. If two players die then we likely do have a 4 person Mob.

[MagnaofIllusion]

3.) Ignores the razor considering the flip had both miller and vig as separate parts of yos's role - which, of course, would mean that both cruelty and I are telling the truth.

Except of course that I'd wager you are the Godfather role, and thus Cruelty is telling the truth and you are scum fake claiming. So Occam's Razor doesn't clear you at all.

Zang do you feel comfortable Vigging Sprex tonight?

Nice way to constantly attack those who question / attack you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, me being a godfather is clearly more of a Razor than him being a cop who got an innocent on, in fact, an innocent.

You keep invoking Occam’s Razor like it’s an infallible proof of your innocence. Which it isn’t. The fact that statistically you have a greater chance to be a VT instead of Godfather has no bearing on whether you are or not.

Additionally, excellent point to quibble on ignoring the all vigs are millers business too.

Addressing you about your typical behavior does not mean I am ignoring Skeward’s point. Thanks for using more faulty logic to somehow ‘strenghten’ your non-existant case that I am Mafia (which laughably consists of you saying “He’s Mafia’, btw).

Nice way to gloss over the whole "Lets not lynch a vig, vote SpyreX" business

Yes, because my not voting for you and wanting to vig you at night with Zang certainly proves your point

But if we are speaking about conveniently ignoring facts, way to ignore that I breadcrumbed my role multiple times. Also way to ignore the fact that your role claim bears little resemblance to Zang and my claims in multiple ways -

1. Zang, Yosarian, and I all have jobs (Vintner, Cobbler, and Tailor) which fit nicely thematically together as normal villagers thrown together into a Mob. Your claim of Dragoon doesn’t fit closely at all.
2. Zang and my role PMS both have comic undertones to our reasons for joining the mob (Zang’ s harpy wife will not let him hide, the town misunderstood my prowess with monsters ala Mickey the Tailor) while yours has no comic undertones at all.

Made the argument that all the vigs are millers (25% of the game most likely,

POSSIBLY 33%

of the game)

Emphasis added. The disconnect here is telling for me. Everywhere else you make ZERO allowance that there could be 4 weak vigs. The quote below doesn’t say “Zang/Manga is most likely lying”. When you are attacking me 4 vigs is not possible but in the statement above you give it consideration as a possibility? Isn’t inconsistency on of your big “scum-tells”

Cruelty is a normal cop. Yos was a vig AND a miller as these are not pieces of the same role. One of Zang/Manga is lying - and I'd bet heavy money on Manga.

Um, Weak Vig and Miller are not pieces of the same role? Are you saying Yos has more than one role? Logic fail yet again.

CMAR indicated quite clearly that Yos said he did not know he was a Miller. CMAR, as proven town, had no reason to lie about that. So any Weak Vig has the possibility of being a Miller also. And your leap across Snake River Canyon from the first sentance to the second is just plain absurd.

And repeatedly saying Zang or I am lying doesn’t make it true. Face facts -

1. Zang was the first to claim.
2. I breadcrumbed clearly Day 1.
3. You were the last to claim Weak Vig, and with poor flavor IMO.

If anyone is lying it’s you. If you want to argue that either Zang or I have a fake-claim supplied by EB that would just as readily apply to you.

As for ‘betting heavy money’ I’ll wager with you the following since we actually can’t bet money –

When I die or the game ends and if I am not revealed as a Town aligned Weak Vig (not considering Miller) then you can choose any picture you want for my avatar for three months (acceptable under site rules, of course).

Likewise when you die or the game ends and if you are not revealed as a Town aligned Weak Vig I get to choose your Avatar for the same period.

Willing to put your avatar where you mouth is? I am.

Additionally, you're saying that instead of just being a vig I'm a godfather which would give ANOTHER poor result for the cop.

Yes, because I think you are scum. The minute you went on the attack when I questioned your behavior in voting for CMAR sealed it for me. Zang and I both drew the same conclusion about the post in question. Yet you, who supposedly has the same role but comes up with tortured logic as to why you didn’t think the same, attack me as Scum with NO support at all. Scummy. The Innocent scan ties nicely with the Godfather role.

Are you arguing in a game with a Cop that it is not unlikely for there to be a Godfather scan resistant Mafia role?

You're saying that in your own proposed setup the cop managed to not hit any of the guilties BUT hit the even lower percentile 1/7 shot AND your bro Manga is saying this is the simplest solution.

Funny, you say this as if Cruelty was randomly rolling the dice and scanning. He scanned you because you found something about your play to be suspicious. So regardless of whatever probabilities existed he scanned you for a reason. Your Appeal to Statistics, yet another logical fallacy, is noted.

today i want to lynch one of ooba/skeward/darox. not sure which i like spyrex's points re: skeward but i'm not going to blindly follow. need to think about it.

I agree that one of Darox / ooba / Skeward should be the lynch today.

i read your post, i'm saying there isn't a really believable eureka moment in there.

7 left

1 lynch today
2 kills tonight

puts us at mylo tomorrow

1 lynch today
1 kill tonight (vigis no-kill)

gives us another mislynch before lylo

Back up the logic train for a second here and consider carefully the situation. Assuming we have two remaining scum (and if we have three things are much worse for Town),

A lynch, a Mafia kill and vig kill leaves 4 players. We are only in MYLO if we hit a Mafian with the lynch or vig kill. I’m town so unless we hit a Mafian with the lynch vigging me tonight ends the game in a 2 to 2 manner.

Likewise your no vig-kill only leaves us with an additional mislynch if we lynch Mafia tonight. Otherwise we are still in a LYLO situation at 3 to 2.

So we, as a Town, should be considering whatever moves we make under the assumption that incorrect ones lose the game for Town.

@Skeward – At this point I think you should be looking at either Darox or ooba as the viable lynch tonight, unless you want to lynch yourself.

@ooba and Darox – You need to weigh in with your thoughts on Vigging versus not and who the lynch should be today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Its not "Well, even with the investigation there's a chance he's a godfather."

You’ve summed it up for me. You scanned Innocent. You’ve claimed to be a Weak Vig when 4 seems pretty unlikely for balance purposes. I know myself and Yos are Weak Vigs for certain. I feel fairly confident that Zang is a Weak Vig. The simplest explanation is that you are a fake-claiming Godfather.

Know what else is missing? Reasons for me being scum. Funny how that works.

You'll get your case when the time comes

The hypocracy / double-standard / disconnection speaks for itself. You have no case on me but that’s fine. But no case on you (which is false BTW)? Scum alert.

Say what actually is happening: I'm attacking the garbage cases and stances that make far more sense coming from scum - you, TS, Josh.

Funny, my case for you being scum is much better than your garbage statements that I am scum. Again your only attack rests in trying to link me to TheSkeward.

@Zang: If TS gets lynched today and IS town, go ahead and shoot me. Otherwise, shoot Manga.
If I'm lying you wont die.
If you're lying I wont die.

There you go.

Laughably you can’t even get my name right. It’s M-A-G-N-A. And I’m fine with this scenario because I’m confident you will not be able to kill me with Zang. If Skeward is lynched and flips scum I’m thrilled. Because then the only way you kill me is with a normal night-kill. Thus cruelty lives and gets another investigation of either ooba or Darox.

And if Skeward is innocent then you die, unless your role-blocker scum friend you’ve been warning about actually exists.

A game with the ability to post YOUR PMS in thread? Yea, there's fakeclaims. It wasn't even discussed because much like miller-land its a given for game balance.

Of course fake claims must be exactly the same role as a real Town PR. They’d never be VTs. Ooba has the best answer of course … you probably fabricated a fake-claim of your own rather than use whatever one you say with certainty is in the game.

Dragoon IS a "job". In fact, if one wants to get all flavor slappy it makes the most sense as a vig.

Of course it’s a job. It’s a military job – mounted infantry. It makes perfect flavor sense as a regular vig. As part of an angry mob of normal villagers, the weak vig? Not so much, but thanks for playing.

In the event I am wrong about that then the statement becomes even more ludicrous.

The part where you’re inconsistent with your theory in whatever way makes your current argument look better? That holds up regardless. Remember you catch-phrase of Dissonance?

Yes, I am saying that because its such a huge logic fail my lord I know I have problems with logic almost as much as reading HALP ME:

Miller / Weak Vigilante. Two parts. Separated. For a reason.

I’ll try to ‘Halp you’ - Two aspects of the same role. Your argument that they aren’t quote “pieces of the same role” is just wrong. The flavor of this game isn’t standard Mafia. Two traditionally separate roles melded into ONE role.

Done. Choo choo buckaroo'.

Are you saying you want a Thomas the Tank engine avatar? Ok I’ll find something cute for you.

If you're saying its a logical fallacy: why. Why is it? Are the statistics wrong?

The probablities were decided when role PMs went out. It doesn’t matter what the odds of you getting your role were … it happened. And please don’t confuse Skeward for myself … I hold no illusions that all Weak Vigs are Millers. You keep saying that it’s statistically unlikely for him to hit you as a 1/7 shot when he could hit Mafia or a theoretical miller. I’m saying it’s 100% likely he hit you because he chose you. Random chance has no meaning when Cruelty gets to actively choose his targets. Given I think you are scum the Godfather role explains the Innocent read quite nicely.

But I thought you were soooo cooool with shooting me or yourself earlier OHH NOES.

Reminding Cruelty of the realities of the situation has nothing to do with whether I am ‘cool’ with vigging you or I. I’m confident you can only kill me with a normal Mafia kill so I’m not worried about two nightkills if Zang wants to go that way. And I’m confident vigging you bags us a Mafian.

(Magna, was your pitchfork question related to your role in any way?).

Yes it was but it hardly qualifies as a strong breadcrumb so I didn’t bother including it. The others were more than sufficent. Good eye though.

Regarding your plan I can agree to it. The only potential downfalls are if Skeward is not a Mafia roleblocker and one is hiding out there or if there actually are 4 Weak Vigs. In either case we probably lose during night anyway so the downside is fairly low.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure your town but I don't understand this. As town you should have no problem sacrificing yourself for the town. If theSkeward is scum, me and spyrex are going to try and you, if it succeeds he's tellling the truth and if not we lynch him tommorow.If theskeward is town, we are killing Spyrex.

I think you don’t understand because you aren’t reading clearly into what I am saying. I am more than fine with you trying to shoot me if TheSkeward flips scum simply because I’m confident that Sprex is not a Weak Vig. Thus if I die tonight (assuming that Skeward is the lynch and flips scum) I’m more than certain that it is because the normal Mafia kill, not the Angry Mob kill, was used on me. In that case that assures that Cruelty lives another night to scan another player. So I have no problems with the plan as laid out.

It looks like town is determined to mislynch today. You guys had better fucking lynch SpryeX tomorrow. Don't let him slip out of it.

Did you not read the general discussion involving weak vigging? If you for some reason flip town Sprex gets pitchforked and burned at the stake tonight.

I have a better idea. Let's do this exact same plan but lynch Darox instead.

Any supporting reasons why? This isn’t exactly a compelling case as to why Darox is more likely scum than you.

Now I'm scum buddies with TS if TS is scum.

Yes because scum would never bus each other to gain town cred …

or they can shoot zang and gamble that zang didn't shoot them (i think vig kills > scum kills?), gives us a 50/50 either way and means scum can't really be 100% happy with their kill.

Standard procedure is generally for all kills to work simultaneously as in most games so I’d say scum can’t outdraw the Weak Vigs and prevent their death.

Here’s my usual post describing my V/LA this weekend starting at 4pm EDT today. I’ll use what time I have to mull over who of Skeward / ooba / Darox I’d like to see lynched if Skeward isn’t hammered by the time I get back.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I opted to shoot Sprexy. Unless Zang chose not to shoot Spyrex Mafia has a role-blocker.

Vote: Spyrex

Die scum die!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gut tells me its spyrex - not voting. Magna think you should unvote in the off chance it is Zang.

Unvote.

I'm as sure as you can be that Sprexy is scum but I'm going to keep the quicklynch possibility off the table since you requested it Ooba.

FOS: Spyrex

in place of the vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex was innocent as told by our town confirmed cop.
If magna and zang were both telling the truth Spyrex should be dead.

So your premise is that the set-up is Town RB + Town Cop + Town Vigs + Town Spiritualist versus Goon + Goon + Traitor Doctor? That’s ludicrous.

There is undoubtedly a Godfather role and either a Roleblocker or Redirector on the Mafia side. Otherwise the set-up would be ridiculously unbalanced.

So asserting that Sprexy is cleared by a scan is “Stick my head in the Sand” stupid. As is blindly assuming that either Zang or I weren’t interfered with.

Really Ooba should have been lynched and Spyrex be the deciding vig, but whatever.

Then why didn’t you bother to make a case against Ooba?

When I have more time in the morning I’ll do some more detailed analysis but now that Darox has weighed in I’m back to

Vote: Spyrex

Goodbye Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would be surprised if the remaining scum were 2 goons, but to leap to the conclusion you have and vote right out of the gates in LYLO is absurd.

Voting for the player I am most confident is scum (Sprexy) right out of the box isn’t absurd. I know I’m Town. The only way a quicklynch happens is under the following two scenarios –

A. Zang is Scum. For this to be true I’d have to accept the following to be true

1. Zang was given a safe-claim by EB that was the exact same as actual non-VT role in the game. Let’s note that it appears that Josh’s ‘safe-claim” based on the flavor was he was a Priest.
2. Zang’s fake PM has flavor that much more closely matches the flavor of my PM than Sprexy’s does.
3. Zang’s behavior (not voting for CMAR after the information dump regarding the Angry Mob, targeting Darox Night 1) as scum closely mirrors my thought process as to how a member of the Angry Mob would react as the game went along, as opposed to Sprexy’s which seems very disconnected IMO. Let’s note that Zang claimed you as a target before my claim was made.

B. Sprexy is actually Angry Mob and both you and Ooba are scum. We in general are playing “outguess the mod” to some degree in throwing out the possibility of 4 mob members. This scenario doesn’t make sense though as if you and ooba are both Scum then Zang and I would have killed Sprexy last night (assuming Mob members can kill each other) and you both would have won in Endgame.

I’m willing to take the heat if either of these scenarios is actually true and a Mafia-driven quick-lynch occurs. But both options seem far-fetched so I’m feeling fairly confident that Sprexy is Scum. In which case we just need to decide who his partner is … you or ooba.

Also, since you didn’t bother to read it I’ll ask again, this time in bold and italics so you can’t possible miss it.

If you say ooba should have been the lynch why didn’t you bother to try to make a case for him or even vote for him?

The quickvote and ooba's little dance confirm it.

One more thing: Zang, did you get an action successful message?

I bet you did, since I did.

Confirm that you are Mafia of course.

And please post your successful action message from EB so Zang can comment on it.

What happened to your grand theory that TS and I were scum-buddies?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was successful. And the fact you said Zang specifically means Zang's was too.

Which, normally, wouldn't matter but we have proof that an unsuccessful message is given if the result is not successful.

Which, thus, means that if you were telling the truth about being roleblocked you wouldn't have segued into supposition - but, instead, directly said you were roleblocked.

That didn't happen. Why is that?

Dingle dangle.

Sprexy you make me laugh. I’m now as certain as ever that you are scum. Because the only messages I have ever received from EB are to say that he has received my action. Because as a Weak Vig it is APPARENT IN THE PLOT whether I succeeded or not. But not really being a Weak Vig you didn’t know that, did you.

My messages from EB on the subject are as follows –

Tonight I will be coming after CryMeARiver for my Angry Mob action.

Okies, gotcha

Angry Mob on Nobody Special.

Thanks for letting me know your action!

For my Angry Mob action Night 3 I will of course attack Spyrex.

As for the whole bet re: Avatars issue I'll take this opprotunity to apologize directly. I've seen those sorts of bets made in several other games here and didn't realize that it would be offensive to you.

Magna

Gotcha; and no worries about the bet thing, I just don't want to see a pattern of outside influences that could break the game

Way to gambit yourself into confirmation that you aren’t a Weak Vig. Which Zang will be able to confirm.

Hammer away Zang and Ooba.

Oh wait I forgot to add some sort of nonsense phrase like Dingle Dangle ….

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are right about only saying that he has received the action IF IT IS SUCCESSFUL. (Hence, I know mine was because I didn't get the above).
However, you opted to come in and go "ohh snap someone was roleblocked" but then ask specifically for me to compare my successful message with Zangs.

Because, gasp, when I didn't get killed you had to claim something right. And you knew Zang was going to be successful. You just didn't remember the fact that unsuccessful actions are responded to by the mod.

I asked you to post yours so Zang could see you were full of shit. Note that you haven’t posted your “action successful” message as requested, even after I posted all three of mine. Note that none of mine say Action Successful or Action Failed. But I’ll happily wait for Zang to come and vote for you. But while we are waiting post your messages from EB for all three Nights. I dare you. You haven’t because you know you aren’t allowed to post fake material from the GM. I already posted my correspondence and if I had fabricated them I’m sure I would have been modkilled for faking information from the GM. But I didn't need to fake them because I'm telling the truth.

I’ll await the sound of you not posting them as caught scum. And as you put it …

What a surprise, a swing and a miss.

Not to mention that now your claiming the setup is Godfather, Roleblocker, Doctor for scum. Which is just awesomeo.

Tinfoil theory: Manga is the godfather. That would explain the adamancy in OHH SNAP GODFATHERS MUST BE THERE EVEN THOUGH THAT MEANS OUR COP HIT THE FALSE POSITIVE AND THE FALSE NEGATIVE BACK TO BACK!

Pro-tip : All caps makes you look like caught scum. Also I not you don’t attempt to actually say that I’m scummy for speculating about the set-up. You just now start because it otherwise points out that you, of course, as scum already know.

And the all-caps includes another spurious Appeal to Statistics from you Sprexy. I note that's a favorite falacy for you. I’ll say it again slowly for you … a low statistical likelihood is irrelevant when something actually happened. Blather on about how you can't have happened because it's "so unlikely". Those of us who understand that probability is just probability will be listening amused.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Look at what I quoted about TheSkeward. Unsuccessful actions are told so by the mod. Manga came in insinuating he was roleblocked but, as we can see, thats not the case.

If I was faking it I would have posted incorrect messages from EB then, wouldn't I? Oh wait, you said it isn't a rule because you weren't killed. Thanks for confirming your posts were doctored

I said there looked like there was a role-blocker. Never said that I was role-blocked. Way to misrep as usual. And Ooba's point about a redirector is potentally the solution to your little paradox as to why there is no "fail message" received by Zang or myself.

@Ooba - I think at this point you need to weigh in with your thoughts. Sprexy and I have said pretty much where we stand.

Zang - Take whatever time you feel is necessary. My vote stands.

And of course it's time for my usual weekend V/LA

. I'll be back Tuesday (due to the holiday weekend). I'll check the thread but don't expect massive posts while I'm with the family.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If there is a driver then sure. However, if thats the case unless we're back to the super-powerteam scum yeehaw his vote is still a joke.

I don't think there's a driver, though. It doesn't seem to have the right mesh in the setup from what we've seen.

You keep saying things like Super-powerteam scum? Do you not think that the Mafia should be expected to have some offsetting powers for a set-up with a true Cop, town Roleblocker, a Vig variant that can’t be eliminated with one kill, and whatever CryMe could squeeze out of his role?

Of course you don’t because that’s the only argument you have … that my speculation about the Mafia make-up is bad.

Look at that real close. It's pretty clearly saying "One of Zang or I were roleblocked."

Again, speculating why your Scum self didn’t die without having input from Zang. The crux of your painfully weak flailing.

For that to have any real relevance to today it would have to be talking about last night.

In order for that to make sense, we would have both had to have been successful. So, when you combine the two thought processes you get: Manga was roleblocked.

Which isn't the case.

And redirector didn't even get brought up today until Ooba did it in his pat-on-the-back don't vote so fast post.

Way to go off on a wild tangent. I asked you to post it because I didn’t figure that you could make crap up. As you said that guess was wrong, you can fabricate. Note you didn’t post at all until after I did, and only at the prompting of your most likely scum-partner Darox.

And until Zang confirmed he wasn’t roleblocked after said posts it was a working theory. Neat how a working theory is treated as a scum-tell by you.

Further, a redirector doesn't make sense because it would redirect everyone targetting a target right?

Which means if I was a scum-redirector the game would be over because if both of you were telling the truth there would have been 2 kills last night. (Scum Kill + Whomever I redirected myself to).

Actually don’t you mean a busdriver, which is completely different from the redirector Zang is referring to? A redirector role is one that selects a target and redirects any night action they have to a target of their choosing. Fits perfectly as to why both Zang and my actions didn’t fail but you live.

Since you are going to go on and on along side-tangents (as it’s all you have) I’ll summarize the situation we have for everyone and then they can vote how they choose.

We have three claimed and one dead Weak Vigs. Everyone assumes that there are logically only 3 Weak Vigs total in the game one of Spyrex, Zang or myself is scum fake-claiming. I’m doubting that assumption is wrong because by this point ooba and Darox would have managed to coordinate a quickhammer on either one of us by now. Everyone reading this ask yourself the following questions –

1. Which of these claimed WVs breadcrumbed multiple times in a credible fashion Day 1? The answer, of course, is me.

2. Which of these claimed WVs has reacted to game situations in the least credible fashion?

Zang picked up on my breadcrumb and made a Day 1 attempt on Darox. Zang didn’t vote CryMe when he spilled Angry Mob mechanics in thread. Zang reacted with to Ooba’s Dayvig gambit by voting for him, which makes complete sense if he was a Weak Vig. Not likely to have a Weak Vig and Dayvig in the same set-up.

I didn’t vote for CryMe when he spilled Angry Mob mechanics.

Sprexy didn’t pick up on breadcrumbs, doesn’t react to CryMe’s statement as Zang and I do.

3. Who has the weakest claim regarding his WV role? The confirmed Weak Vig is a Vintner. We have claims of a Cobbler (Zang), a Tailor (myself) and a Dragoon (Sprexy). To quote Sesame Street, “One of these things is not like the others”. And that thing is a Military role when compared to three peasant style roles.

4. Heck for kicks let’s look at EB’s messages for each Day –

Confirmed, thank you!

Okies

Alrighty, thanks for getting your action to me so fast!

Okies, gotcha

Thanks for letting me know your action!

Gotcha; and no worries about the bet thing, I just don't want to see a pattern of outside influences that could break the game

Confirmed. Thanks!

Action confirmed.

Confirmed!

The responses to Zang and myself read as conversational. Note the similar phrasing and use of Okies in responses to us. Sprex’s “responses” all are mechanical and out of place compared to ours.

Let’s also look at TheSkeward’s responses and look to see which matches more closely – Zang’s and mine or Sprexy’s?

Confirmed, thank ya

Alrighty, thanks for letting me know!

Similar conversational read to Zang’s and mine. Also uses alrighty as he did with Zang.

Conclusion – Sprexy made it all up, and waited until he could double check with our dear Mod that he wouldn’t be violating rules before he posted.

And before I forget … let’s not forget the following from TheSkeward –

Block: Darox

You succeeded with your action

I target Nobody Special.

Your attempt fails.

So when TS targeted a Vanilla Town his action failed. Yet when Darox was targeted his action succeded. Could perhaps Darox be Sprexy’s scum compatriot Redirector / whatever role saved Scum Sprexy?

I’m officially calling it now –

Sprexy and Darox are the two remaining scum. Lynch today, lynch tomorrow, Game Set Match for Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not much time today but I'm agreeable to lynching Scum Darox first. The only way it fails is if Sprexy has been bussing Ooba pretty hard. And since it was Zang's idea I doubt it is scum driven.

Unvote, Vote: Darox

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the fun game EB - this is what a Themed Mini should be like!

Sigh ... voting for Darox was a mistake I made during my limited access during the weekend / holiday. I only went along with it because it originated from Zang and I was sure he wasn't scum. Going against my "Don't vote outside fake-claims in LYLO" belief cost me. I take full responsability for the town losing (although I am sure Spyrex would have hammered Darox once Zang voted anyway.

I'd be curious to see the full set-up details from EB.

If anything this game gave me some clear reads on players for the future.

Congrats to the Mafia. To loosely quote Spaceballs "Evil will always triumph becuase Good played stupid (Day 4 anyway)"

And Zang you clearly picked up on my breadcrumb to that I wanted to off Darox Night 1 since you targeted him