Mini 948 - Victorian Vampire - Game Over

[SpyreX]

Who among us would delight in burning the poor townsfolk alive?

Who, in fact, would delight in such cruelty?

OHH YEA

vote: cruelty

[SpyreX]

While I dig questions and all that these two are somethin special.

But, whatevs

1.) Nope
2.) When in doubt, fire.

[SpyreX]

Yea, I'm pretty sure the front is just flavored links to the game.

What could links to the dead mean though cry?

[SpyreX]

While competing bandwagons are tech and all it sure loses some of the spice when they're being done solely for the sake of that.

But that sure ain't gonna stop me from it.

Unvote, Vote: OOba

[SpyreX]

I do not like both these posts .. Not sure how any setup discussion helps at this point - but the second post looks like an obvious fishing attempt to me..

You're right. 100%.

It was fishing. To see if there was something there that didn't add up with what was given (like a scum-paranoia about mechanics).

I'm busted.

[SpyreX]

Ohh this game is gonna be a hoot.

Yes, I asked cry specifically why they would ask about that

because it was such a strange thing to ask about.

Since, follow me here, someone wondering what/if that does something special could have been the lead to a huge slip. As it sits, I liked the answer - it felt genuine without trying to avoid it.

That said:

Josh is tech.

"Ohh hay I'm gonna play tiddlywinks with this wagon"
"OHH LOOK A DISTRACTION"

Unvote, Vote: JoshTheStampede

(Hint: Nowhere did I say anything about any role related questioning. It was far more basic in the "would there be something there that SCUM would question")

[SpyreX]

I am fishing. Fishing for explanations to see if there was an AHA moment there.

I am not fishing about anything about the role. This is doubly so when right after I went "ohh, ok".

[SpyreX]

Just kinda? I didn't even realize it was THREE awesome votes.

Including one voting for me and FoS'ing Josh which is truly slam-dunk behavior.

Josh is tech is a statement of sarcasm with how quickly he pounced on something to divert attention.

Still would love to know how that was rolefishing, too.

[SpyreX]

I still have no idea what "Josh is tech" means even after that explanation.

However, I read back at your "I am busted" post and realized that the issue is that I just can't understand what the hell you mean. I guess you were fishing for scum, somehow? Even though that doesn't really make sense. Fishing for scumslips, ok whatever, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one and admit I was possibly wrong about the vote. What you were saying still makes no sense to me but I don't really think it's scummy anymore.

Not going to move my vote yet though, because I have no other cases at the moment and you're in no danger. I'll do some iso reading tomorrow and see if I can't get a read on someone.

Tech as a statement of sarcasm because that was some nice good ol fashioned scum manuvering.

Yes, I was "fishing" for scum. Or, to be precise to see if the "why" for such an odd statement led to something far more interesting.

Note: You just said you don't find me scummy anymore, but the vote is a-ok because you have no other cases.

Yessir.

[SpyreX]

Ok, slight derail for a moment because woosh.

Tech is a statement normally signifying sarcasm. Like, if I said "I am the hoppy bunny" and then the next post someone asked who I am a proper reply would be "See above. Reading is tech."

Now, obviously I find Josh's wacky antics even more awesome with going after Darox for doing... nothing?

[SpyreX]

...

The reason "roleclaiming" is bad isn't because of the knowledge of a word. Its the implied knowledge of what that word means - i.e. mafia know a cop needs to go away because they know what a cop does.

Innkeeper is a word. With no defined rules. This is not roleclaiming.

[SpyreX]

He didn't roleclaim.

In no way was that anywhere close to it where saying "don't roleclaim" makes any sense.

Much like saying I was rolefishing when in no way I was.

Good to see we've reached the LRN2READ part of this though. Soon is the vehement anger, and then the resignation. Then the scum flip.

[SpyreX]

Sorry Yos no way this gets dropped. Its like some kinda magic roadmap leading to scumtopia.

I'm gonna explain this slowly. If that doesn't work I can draw a diagram or something. I'll leave the vehement anger and the scumflip for you, though, thanks.

I know he didn't roleclaim. I thought that he was heading in that direction though, and so I was warning him to not roleclaim. I never said he roleclaimed, I never accused him of it, so stop saying that.

One more time, I thought that he might have been heading for a roleclaim, since people were asking what he meant about the Innkeeper thing. So, before he potentially roleclaimed, I said that he shouldn't.

Do you understand now? Or are you going to not read this post either and just say BUT HE DIDNT ROLECLAIM again? Because I don't really know if I can make it any simpler.

Explain it as slow as you want. Lets go back a page and look at the exchange:

I'm an Innkeeper.

What does that tell you?

Is this some sort of role claim or is this your actual profession? I am now a little bit confused...

What is that supposed to mean?

Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment. Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

So, we've got some amazing (one could say tech) results from Darox's statement. Including, *gasp* Josh.

But, maybe, maybe Josh is right. Maybe this is the preamble to Darox opting to spill all his dark secrets for fun and profit.

CryMeARiver wrote:
Is this some sort of role claim or is this your actual profession? I am now a little bit confused...
Zang wrote:
What is that supposed to mean?
JoshTheStampede wrote:
Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment. Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

Guess.

Yes. This looks like the response of someone who is about to just flood the thread with unnecessary information.

Further, and I'll showcase this because its really important:

Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment.

Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

Darox, you really should not claim or tell us anything about your role,

even the flavor,

unless you really have to.

So, on top of the cognitive dissonance in

asking a question that he says shouldn't be answered

we have another interesting tidbit: this behavior, done by two other people, doesn't even warrant an FoS.

Instead, the vote is served better on someone he says he no longer finds scummy.

And, well, lets say its not the behavior. What is it?

This is very true. It's also dangerous even if the particular name is not a giveaway, because it might lead to others nameclaiming when they DO have more obvious flavor connections.

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

This mountain. Its covered in oil. It, in fact, makes the slope slippery.

Perhaps, the slipperiest of slopes.

Darox saying guess != Bob, Slayer of Vampires, thinking that is A-OK behavior.

[SpyreX]

I'll deal with the other stuff in a while but apparently I'm slow so I need this to be its own post:

Explain to me, in the simplest terms, how Darox saying he is an Innkeeper opens the floodgates to town power roles outing themselves.

[SpyreX]

Yes, that is my case.

Ohh wait lets try again.

* voted for me as a smokescreen from the pressure you were already getting. Look at post 91.
* opted to keep the vote on me after saying you didn't find me scummy anymore because there were no other cases
* asked for more flavor from Darox AND THEN said it was a bad thing. Literally, on the same page, went "claim more, wait claiming is bad".
* gave the example of "The Vampire Hunter" coming out as an example of this and then had the sheer cajones to say there was no slippery slope.

[SpyreX]

You explained keeping a vote on someone you don't think is scummy?
You explained there be no other cases?
You explained why you would ASK for scumhunting to get done (see above)?
You've explained how this:

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

Isn't a slippery slope?

[SpyreX]

Yes that simple mistake in typing really makes what I was trying to get across SOOO HARD it required multiple paragraphs backhandedly insulting me.

So, I'll try it again with using my right words:

You've explained how there were "no other cases" on anyone (and didn't try to make them happen) being a solid justification for keeping your vote on someone you didn't think was scummy?

Because that sure was your justification for keeping your vote there until cruelty.

Which has some awesome rationales for it, btw.

Ohh and this "derail" doesn't stop you from scumhunting. Nothing can stop you from doing it. However, it sure paints a great excuse to not scumhunt.

Which every time you whine about NO SCUMHUNTING it sure is. Or every extra bit of energy you use slapfighting me (while being damn sure to say I'm not scum) instead of focusing your efforts on looking for scum are.

[SpyreX]

(and note I even gave you what you wanted with a post detailing this BS without using those quoted words which are, in fact, huge red flags for your behavior)

(the fact I could do this makes me very happy with your lynch)

(I shouldn't be able to do that 7 pages in)

(Please focus your efforts here like you said you wouldn't and then cry to the heavens about there being no scumhunting still)

[SpyreX]

Don't think that because I'm arguing WITH you the argument is ABOUT you. I'm not going to convince you that you're scum.

If he was scum and realized it was bad after posting it - and didn't want to get any heat for it, the correct play would have been to say nothing. After all, there were two other players who had asked the same question - safety in numbers. Why would he backtrack and draw unnecessary attention?

It's not scummy - its null.

Swapping positions in a major way within a span of a few posts and not even making mention of the swap - it wasn't like he went "Disregard my very bad question and don't give any information" is null?

Sweet.

[SpyreX]

And spyrex, just because he was asking if daroxs inkeeper statement was a claim doesn't mean he wanted him to claim. He was just asking for clarification which I do not find scummy. Either "yes i'm claiming" or "no it's something else". And if the answer is yes than darox should be the one to be blamed, not Josh.

No, he didn't outright say "claim now". No one is that obvious.

Is that a flavorclaim is an

implicated

claim because either answer serves the same purpose.

[SpyreX]

Your softclaim of VT is noted.

I give up. On two levels. The fact that this is again, a tech statement is just a pile of amazing. However EVEN MORE SO:

Notice Josh has posted after this which would be a MUCH more blatant "rolefish" and MUCH more negative but nope.

Instead, for the first time I think...ever on here I'm getting blather like English not being my first language. Or being bad at "internet grammar". Wooosh.

If you think these are actual statements made because they are actually true and not absolute smoke and mirrors (hint: the use of the word "tech" and a single mistyped sentence do not change the fact what I am alluding to is fairly easy to comprehend).

I don't know if you need someone to just claim scum in order to get something going but my lord.

[SpyreX]

?

Yes. I do.

I think the first jump onto me was leaping for a distraction. Especially considering Manga deserved no mention. He even quoted the post Manga did it.

I think the "don't say more" was trying to minimize the damage of asking for more information to begin with - justified, again, by "well I didn't want the super cop who had super death cop in his title to feel claiming was a-ok"

And the jumping over "tech" and my poor worded question with far more emphasis than he has done looking for scum (hint: I'm not scum - even if I am "crazy")

What am I laying out that even remotely seems like I don't actually think he's scum?

[SpyreX]

Because what Josh has done doesn't really say to me scum, and I think that you can see it too.

What do you think about crueltys contributions to the Josh wagon?

Every step of this has been scummier than the last - I mean, the new defense is a different wording of "too stupid to be scum". So, no, I don't see the "doesn't really say scum" from this. Far, far from it. Especially as it has progressed.

Cruelty? I'm not going to push a case and then turn on someone who

agrees

with it. At least, of course, until there is a flip.

[SpyreX]

Blahhhh

If Jack wasn't still alive I'd be voting for Ooba at the mo. I hate that "gambit" soo much.

Zang: Your reaction to someone claiming a dayvig is voting them?

[SpyreX]

Its smoke and mirrors. I wouldn't cry we shifted that way for sure.

[SpyreX]

"All scummy things are directly related to me" - Josh

Of course, who am I to stand in the way of a bus. Only problem is that everything in this tryst points to Josh being a more valuable scum-PR.

Unvote, Vote: Ooba

[SpyreX]

You haven't said it but ohh you've said it.

Who are your suspects?

[SpyreX]

You're implying that the kill gambit was in fact a smokescreen for the real gambit; pulling the heat off Josh? (That's rhetorical, I know the answer, this is more for future reference).

Rhetorical or not, yea thats how this reads. Especially with *shock* the baby derail into ethics now.

[SpyreX]

Firstly I had already ‘noticed’ as you put it Josh’s comments. That comment had clearly already been well covered by your back and forth. Notice that my question to Josh regarding his specific use of language meant to be inflammatory at 172. Do you think there’s any ground not covered by your interrogation? Josh, in my mind, clearly backtracked.

Secondly I don’t know what you’re going on about regarding your lack of clarity if you are addressing me. Josh is the one who made those statements.

Lastly please don’t assume your analysis of Josh is enough, especially this early in the game, for me to sheep along. I don’t need someone “to claim Mafia” to scumhunt. Sorry that my methods differ from yours.

He did backtrack. I'm saying on TOP of that he's not even genuine - his vote for me for "rolefishing" AND the whole "don't give information that's bad" when your little stunt should have raised a flag and...nothing.

Which, of course, fuels the fire. (this should answer both your questions).

---

Slane needs to play the game. Immediately if not sooner.

[SpyreX]

He's not saying VT, he's saying VI - there's a huge difference.

He's wrong, of course but.

[SpyreX]

Wooo.

Well, watching the pair of jumping posts parroting each other really makes me think easj is town THAT NEEDS TO PLAY THE GAME.

Seriously. Look at 261 and 262.

[SpyreX]

Pretty much. Double parroting the power-lurker is an easy out.

[SpyreX]

I'm not even voting for you at the mo'.

And going from shock and offended to parroting ooba well wooo nelly.

[SpyreX]

EBWOP: Sorry, Ooba parroted you. My bad.

And you didn't say anything about it.

[SpyreX]

And thus the circle is complete. Remember my "Everything scummy revolves around me?" comment.

Yep.

You backtrack on rolefishing and then don't call Magna out on it? Check.
You vote for Ooba under the "I can't believe you would DO such a thing?" but don't even bat an eye when he parrots you? Check.
You ignore my very simple request for who your suspects are because, shock and awe, they totally revolve around you? Check.
You then vote for me (who totally wasn't scum earlier) because I made a mistake in how I read it AND try to compare that to your "changing your mind" business? Check.

Get 'er done. Ooba can rope tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Josh

[SpyreX]

Who are your suspects, Josh?

Its not a hard question.

[SpyreX]

Well, originally I thought you were a townie who was just

tunnelled on me.

Then you kept pounding away at it and pounding away at it so I'm voting you because I now think you are scum trying to get more people to jump on the current vote leader (me) by making every single case somehow about me.

The Skeward has posted a lot less than you, but since RVS ended he has

literally ZERO posts that are not directly about me.

There's no cases, just "hey guys vote josh", and he also accuses me of being an alt and some other stuff. I think he's probably your scumbuddy and pushing the same wagon you are.

Cruelty jumped on what I considered to be a ludicrous case

but that was days ago IRL and he hasn't really made much noise since then. So, FoS still on him, I guess, but I need to hear more.

Slaine Hayes and easj both have a bunch of posts that look like they wanted to up their post count without having much to say. That's minorly scummy, so I am keeping an eye on them.

So... I guess I was wrong then.

You have two lurker suspects.

The other three, though.

[SpyreX]

OMGUS, really?

*sigh*

Yes, Slaine is starting to draw some of my ire. However, partially because of him being thrown in the pool and having a hard time stomaching a bus, I'm real real hesitant because of Josh.

[SpyreX]

See, but I'm pretty sure you're scum so wanting you to get lynched makes sense?

And I've only one rope. Just because you're the focal point (because you are scum) doesn't mean that other shirkers and other shenanigans aren't sliding by.

Hell, I've found more than one fairly certain town thus far. Which I'm happy about. Not quite UNBREAKABLE ALLIANCE time but.

When, due to the glut of apathy, I can't get you lynched I would definitely push for Ooba. Or Slaine "I'll vote one side, FoS the other and then just keep posting catchup posts because that is truly tech play" Hayes.

[SpyreX]

Do you think easjo’s post is anything other than fluffy filler? He doesn’t given reasons for a single one of his ‘reads’ and considereds no-one scummy.

Ohh I don't like it.

I just don't like who happened to jump on it that fast even more.

[SpyreX]

on != for. Woosh me.

The lurkers raise my ire but I for mad reals would prefer this for a myriad of reasons.

Hell, I'll lynch lurkers anytime, but.

[SpyreX]

I'm constantly hounding him because that many issues are NOT "weak reasons" and this is well beyond "newbie mistakes".

Look at the suspect list. Look at the common denominators.

[SpyreX]

Its like the ultimate OMGUS.

Although, realistically, thats icing - the whole jump to me in the first place when he was getting steam was the one that REALLY raised my eye.

[SpyreX]

The "gambit" with the kill really only serves as smoke and mirrors.

But, yes, most of it is the connections with Josh.

[SpyreX]

304 is awesome much like Jack's suspect list: both sides and a lurker!

I'm not in the mood to settle for a third choice out of what we have. Slaine bothers me a whole lot more that easjo but with that replacement we'll see.

Magna would be my #3 but by a huge canyon.

----

Yea I never explained how slippery slope is scummy. I don't really think I need to delve in how overcompensation in trying to cover your dissonance is - and, further, you went "there's no slippery slope" sooo welll.

[SpyreX]

Name slip.

Glad you globbed onto that though.

"I actually gave the most basic example in the fake quoting you gave thanks for playing get lynched tia"

[SpyreX]

Well, lets try this again then:

You said that I've never explained why its scummy in detail. Which is true. Because, I really don't think it needs explanation (and the fact that you went "Nope, didn't do it" meant the point of trying to explain it to the masses to lynch you was going to be a waste of time if they didn't see it already)

But, allow me to expand.

The Slippery Slope can be scummy in a myriad of ways. Not to waste too much time I'll delve specifically into this version of it: justification for an action.

Again, I'll put this up:

Darox, please explain your innkeeper comment. Is that some sort of flavorclaim?

Darox, you really should not claim or tell us anything about your role, even the flavor, unless you really have to.

:then a discussion of what actual roleclaiming, etc, etc:

THEN:

This is very true. It's also dangerous even if the particular name is not a giveaway, because it might lead to others nameclaiming when they DO have more obvious flavor connections.

For example, if Darox comes out and says "Hey guys I'm the Innkeeper" no one really knows what that means, but if it causes Player B to then say "Yeah, I'm the Vampire Hunter" or "I'm the Holy Water Salesman" or something it's a lot worse in terms of bullseyes for the nightkill.

So, why is this scummy?

Initially, you have a case of severe cognitive dissonance in the "flavor" "don't give flavor". When called out on it you've opted with

a scenario that isn't going to happen. Ever. Not in a million years.

This kind of chicken-little fear mongering is scummy. It always is. When its used as a defense for a different stronger and more braver scummy action well.

----

NS - I'm not a young duckling by any means.

And while not jovial, sure... but not outspoken? REALLY?

(and I'm not stoked about "I've read through page 6" "this discussion went on pages afterwards")

[SpyreX]

Him being a traitor puts a few kinks in my theories.

However, a namedrop should be REALLY interesting - I'll get on it in the next day or two.

For now, I want to see the lurking brigade pick it up. One of NS / Cmar being scum wouldn't surprise me.

[SpyreX]

The active lurking thing was an obvious joke, and distancing from Josh wouldn't make any sense given he was a traitor and one of the things about traitors is they typically don't know who the rest of mafia is and the mafia don't know who they are.

Really? (not being snide)

I thought traitors were a one-sided relationship (either the mafia knew the traitor OR the traitor knew the mafia).

If its totally devoid, scratch that drop.

[SpyreX]

Hahaha

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

Did a quick rundown on Josh's ISO.

Guess who is never mentioned?

Not once. Quoted once that I saw, but never talked about.

(That said if I'm right about this I'd put heavy money on Ooba and Darox both being town now).

[SpyreX]

And everyone else gets at least a mention?

Yeaaa

[SpyreX]

This is quite dumb. I don't defend Josh ever and yes I did attack Slaine Hayes because he was scummy. Two other people seemed to agree with me. Also, if we have agreed that Josh was a traitor, even if I was mafia, I wouldn't have known he has scum. Therefore all of the above means nothing.

While this makes me a little it did give me a missing the trees for the forest moment: Josh was a Doctor.

No way in hell he didn't know who the scum were.

1) "Josh is tech" This argument was ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS and made no sense to me.
2) That Josh was rolefishing with his roleclaiming comment about Darox's Innkeeper. I thought it was obvious that Josh was not rolefishing, but saying for no one to roleclaim at all. Spyrex attacked him here for no reason.

Yes, putting 1 (the garbage the scum was spewing) and 2 (the dissonance in his "this is good" "wait, this is bad") is a great idea.

Dingle dangle

[SpyreX]

God I hate having to spell out every tiny bit of my thought processes.

Since Josh was a Mafia Doctor, your entire point is, well, Obvious. So, why'd you bother? Are you trying to point out things that are Obvious in order to increase your town cred? Seriously. What?

Considering the discussion earlier with Darox in regards to how the traitor operated, yea it was worth mentioning.

Specifically in this context: Josh was a Mafia Doctor. In order for that role to have ANY real use Josh would have, in fact, had to know who the scum were.

Now, when you take that in conjunction with the absolute absence of mentioning CMAR in a namedrop analysis that raises a flag.

Add to that CMAR's play and you've got a lynch.

Hence, dingle dangle.

BUT, since I know thats not going to be enough lets continue:

Not exactly sure what any of that means. Both arguments were complete crap and on the second one, Josh never rolefished still in my opinion. If I was his mafia buddy, I'd be distancing like crazy right now, but I'm not because I still think you were wrong.

1.) and 2.) have nothing to do with each other. Having them grouped is an absolute disservice and more than a little shady.

1.) was, like I called it at the time, part of the "ohh look, a distraction!" game he was playing. It was an argument about something that had nothing to do with anything but create white noise.

2.) was part of the scumdance he was doing yesterday all day (and you're focusing on the tiniest most arguable part but I'll digress). He instinctively asked for more information, saw that was a REAL bad idea and tried to distance himself from it. When called out on "is that a flavor claim" business and the quick turn around was that whole "I didn't want to open the floodgates to all the town PR's outing themselves seriously guys"

Which, then and now, is garbage. Scum garbage, exactly like I said.

That last sentence there is more of that classic doublespeak- how, HOW, considering your posted stances could you as scum distance yourself from it while under the knife?

You cant. So you have to support it but that looks bad with a scum flip so what does one do?

Ohh, just what you did.

[SpyreX]

Nah. No one was fishing. You're right. Josh was, in fact, tech the whole time and it is absolute sheer random chance I pushed on him and he flipped scum.

Totally. Promise.

[SpyreX]

Nah cruelty is fairly neutral these days.

Post 55: @SpyreX
At this point, there were two votes on CMAR and one on me. Why did you choose to go ahead with my wagon instead of his?

Because the idea was competing wagons?

[SpyreX]

Why do I still feel you are completely missing my point?

1. Saying I am scum because I defended Josh is silly. The scum probably wouldn't have known who Josh was. Josh may have known who the scum were, but that's irrelevant.

2. You responded to this point by saying "Of course Josh knew who the scum was, he was a doctor." This may be true, but is irrelevant, because what I was saying is that the other scum probably didn't know who HE was. I don't know if you read my post backwards, SpyreX, or if you deliberately misunderstood me."

All of your arguments related to how I talked about Josh yesterday (and how I'm talking about him today) are completely irrelevant, because scum can't defend a buddy they don't know about.

That wasn't a "response" as much as a realization confirming the real point:

1.) Josh was a traitor doctor.
--- For this role to be USEFUL that means Josh would know the mafia.
2.) Josh never, ever mentioned you and only you.
--- This is important because this one-way connection bespeaks his knowing your alignment.

Thus, the flipped scums absence of interaction is what makes me think you are scum.

FURTHER, I'm not saying

anything

about your interaction with Josh making you scum directly. It's a one way street on that. At that point *shock* you stayed away from it saying we were probably both town based on poor reasoning

because you thought we were both town

.

I said your statement "I'd distance from this if I was scum" is a load of garbage because a.) you didn't know he was scum WITH you at the time and b.) distancing yourself from it at this juncture would make absolutely no sense.

[SpyreX]

Yes I'm the stupid one!

"THE DOCTOR TRAITOR SCUM HAD NO IDEA WHO THE SCUMS WERE ZOMG"

[SpyreX]

My question was, is that your entire case?

Thats a big one and if I need to go back and show the raw amount of nothing this game (besides avoiding the main issue of yesterday) well.

[SpyreX]

I could go on with the largest ISO ever on how he tunneled Josh all of D1 and me all of D2 and how he has been misrepresenting me and providing cases without validity on me and how he is still obsessed with Josh even on D2, but if you can't already see that and you need an ISO to establish that, you can do it yourself. All of this could easily be misguided townie though, so I'm still not sure on you.

Seems like I've been accused of misreprsenting someone earlier this game.

Funny how that turned out.

I'm not digging / understanding this switch.

[SpyreX]

I'm not sold from what I've seen - not enough to warrant the jump.

[SpyreX]

See this post above me?

Yea, town post (although wrong about CMAR)

[SpyreX]

If scum, why wouldn't they try to save their hide and push again on CMAR?

[SpyreX]

"NO U

Also, I agree this person that I am voting is town just being stupid."

If you think that's a town post, I am in favor of lynching everyone you think is town.

Are you saying that I agree CMAR is town? Because that's sure not the case - I said he's wrong about that.

Are you saying he's voting CMAR? Because that also isn't the case.

Because they think they can get away with dismissing the case by ignoring it rather than doing a really overblown and obvious scummove..

?

He voted before this whole push that way.
His unvote was because CMAR promised content (which hasn't been delivered).

That isn't some kinda "TRAP SPRUNG" move back regardless of alignment.

And, when pressure is on as scum - saying the other suspect is town?

[SpyreX]

You managed to misinterpret this and then interpret it properly and complain about it from both sides. Why?

Ohh hay sweet I didn't realize you were Skeward.

So, which wrong statement is it? Since both of those statements are wrong afterall.

And I never addressed EITHER of those statements: I addressed the final one where he is insinuating that is an absolutely scum post by asking why scum would do that.

So basically you're saying NS is town because when given the decision to setting himself on fire or do nothing, he chose to do nothing?

Yes, thats what I'm saying.

Except, ya know, for the whole fact that choosing to vote there isn't a setting himself on fire move to begin with and the alternative (not only NOT voting but additionally declaring the only other wag to be town) is not quite 'doing nothing' but if scum is actively closing escape routes.

Yea.

[SpyreX]

If you're scum and getting caught and have expressed constant disdain (but, at this moment in time are unvoting to see if they actually deliver what they've promised) and they clamor on you moving your vote BACK to where it is declaring the only other avenue of votes as town isn't a good way to stay alive versus going "well, they've delivered no content, vote"

I'm still baffled at this whole discussion from a root level. CMAR hasn't DONE anything and that wall of text still is: lurker, voted for me, voted for me, voted for me.

And then all of a sudden everyone went welp and now nothingness.

[SpyreX]

And, look at that. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: 60
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010

4:43 pm

Post subject: 61

Posted: Mon May 03, 2010

4:34 pm

Post subject: 508

Good LORD I don't even know what else to say.

[SpyreX]

MY FEELINGS



---

This isn't a dichotomy.

In the short term hell yes the lynch choice is a dichotomy (or greater than but as it sits this is what we're looking at).

Moreso, what with the fairly high chance of becoming the dead soon its a damn strong one that I'm not going to buckle on - especially with this exceptional play and rebuttals I'm seeing.

[SpyreX]

Maybe the new blood will interject some life. That'd be nice.

I'm now fairly confident that Darox and TheSkeward aren't scum together though - that whole "SpyreX, this is obviously what he meant." and then TS coming in and saying he was wrong sure doesn't click for a scum team.

TS: Thoughts on Darox answering for you?

[SpyreX]

Hot damn I love you already VV.

I'll parse out a bit of that quote wall later - I must escape the concrete jungle.

[SpyreX]

I think I'm putting too much weight on NS being town with some of his later d2 stuff HOWEVER I'm still not sold on this being a better wagon.

So, I'll try this a different way:

What makes CMAR less likely to be scum than NS?

[SpyreX]

NS:

Vote. Give a case. Go.

[SpyreX]

NS:

One more try.

Vote AND Give a case. Go.

[SpyreX]

CMAR is definitely telling the truth about his role. Town? Probably but I'm not about to lockout deadspeaker as a scum role.

NS, however - in a game where you can post your role PM by nature means that the role PM's mean very, very little.

Which makes VV's ohh yea I can totally confirm both of us buttttt I wont until L-1 business even more awesome.

Cruelty is probably town too fyi.

Unvote, Vote: VV

[SpyreX]

I'm fine with massclaim as well.

[SpyreX]

I'm also stoked with ALL the sweet votes on this page not even pretending to try. Well done.

[SpyreX]

...

Unvote, Vote: Ooba

Claim.

[SpyreX]

Welcome to Victorian Vampire! I suggest you add the topic to your Watch list and read over the rules.

You are Victor the Dragoon, one of the Angry Mob. At night you may try to kill another player. A grisly war wound hampers you, however, so someone else from the Angry Mob needs to help or you won’t succeed. You win with town.

Please reply to this message with the name of your role to confirm that you have read the rules. Good luck!

N1 - Manga
N2 - Nobody Special

I'll be looking at this in a bit more depth later today.

[SpyreX]

No where have I ever seen a miller who knows he is a miller because then they would just claim miller and mafia would be able to claim miller. That's stupid.
Yes, I have been speculating about the setup. I've been thinking about "weak vig". Weak doc is if they protect mafia, then they die. This would not make sense for a vig though, since shooting mafia and then dying is stupid and defeats the purpose of a vig.

So the only thing I could come up with is that they can't choose who they shoot at night.

Thinking about the flavor of the game, I thought of a mob killing a monster. So there might be a group of weak vigs?

This is all speculation of course and I can guarantee that my role PM does not tell me any of this

He has specifically hit dead-on the mechanic (bolded) for your role, as shown your claim. Did this not scream to you (at that point, before we knew he could talk to the dead AKA Yosarian) that he was a member of the Mob?

Except for, of course, the fact he didn't hit it dead on or even a little bit AND said it was speculation.

That looked like a bit of fishing to see if someone would go "ohh yea thats totally how it works".

If CMAR had a.) actually got it right or b.) instead of playing slappywags at that point just laid out what was actually going on instead of dancing well.

Note that the tune changed when he explained what was ACTUALLY happening.

Although, you do you raise something very important:

The chances of there being two weak vig-sets versus an actual set of three are marginal.

Unvote, Vote: Magna

Cruelty's play fits pretty damn solid and I believe that claim 100%
I'm leaning real hard on one of Darox/Skeward being the partner.

I'm pretty damn sure one of Zang / Magna is lying. I'd lean WAY harder on it being Manga.

[SpyreX]

Zang is either an absolute genius scum or, far more likely, town. Its just the way he's approached everything that floors me if its a scum-push.

I'm a little confused if you think for SURE one of manga and I are scum but want to go the other direction. 50% > 33% which is pretttty clearly what you implied there.

[SpyreX]

I need to eat at it because I think there's some serious margin of error there (especially if there's a scum roleblocker) BUT I like your style.

[SpyreX]

I'll get into this more when I'm back at the machine BUT the chances are that yes there is a scum in the vig sets AND if I'm right a scum roleblocker will screw it up.

However, TheSkeward was nice enough to out himself:

Unvote, Vote: TheSkeward

In the post above he managed to:

1.) Say we shouldn't lynch a vig and then proceed to vote for one.
2.) Made the argument that all the vigs are millers (25% of the game most likely, POSSIBLY 33% of the game) as an argument for a cop being here.
3.) Ignores the razor considering the flip had both miller and vig as separate parts of yos's role - which, of course, would mean that both cruelty and I are telling the truth.

Yeeaaaa TS is scum which means Darox is town and leans even harder on Manga being the other.

BOO-ya

[SpyreX]

Yes, me being a godfather is clearly more of a Razor than him being a cop who got an innocent on, in fact, an innocent.

Additionally, excellent point to quibble on ignoring the all vigs are millers business too.

And you're 100% right I totally only attack people who question me. Totally. It has nothing to do with the method of attack.

Nice way to gloss over the whole "Lets not lynch a vig, vote SpyreX" business.

[SpyreX]

Of the options presented by you? None of them. Since your options are one of us is scum OR cruelty is lying as town

Cruelty is a normal cop. Yos was a vig AND a miller as these are not pieces of the same role. One of Zang/Manga is lying - and I'd bet heavy money on Manga.

You know, what makes actual sense from the pieces we've been given.

However, lets assume in the course of one post that you went "don't lynch vigs.... lynch SpyreX"

Why, really, would at minimum a quarter of the game come up fake-positive to a cop? Since that is what your process led to.

Additionally, you're saying that instead of just being a vig I'm a godfather which would give ANOTHER poor result for the cop.

[SpyreX]

Good lord ok lets dance:

1) All the options I present require one of cruelty/SpryeX to be scum or cruelty to be lying as town.

False. I clearly present one of the options as "neither is scum. either cruelty is lying as town or not all of the weak vigs are millers."

Fair enough. You do say that not all the weak vigs are millers.

However, You put two pieces together as "unlikely" like they were conjoined - additionally, this implies the probabilities of A TOWN COP LYING and the fact the flip was Miller/Weak Vig means he is a a Miller and a Weak Vig are the same (versus, of course, writing it as a Weak Vig Miller).

2) I changed my mind within the course of a post.

True. SpryeX has yet to show how changing my mind based on a new realization is scummy.

Its dissonance. Remember waaaay back when in a matter of posts our ol buddy Josh went "claim? Claiming is bad?"

Additionally, you're claiming it was a "preview edit".

A preview of what?

Ooba: Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: 679
You: Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: 680

So, we've got an hour and a half there? Interesting, no?

Lets look a bit deeper:

I left the earlier point in rather than rewriting my post because I had to go get my student ID card and

my friend was bitching at me to hurry up.

It also allows you to see my train of thoughts.

So you spent an hour and a half on that post with a friend bitching and opted to leave it to show your "train of thought" which was "one of the vigs is scum. I'm against lynching any of them. Bad reasons. Vote SpyreX"

Yessir.

Now, WHY really is this scummy?

Because Magna is the scum. And that started out with "lets not get my buddy lynched" and segued into "here's a maybe viable target"

But, lets continue:

3) It is unlikely that there is both a godfather and three millers.

Opinion. SpryeX has yet to show why my belief is scummy.

This is my favorite one, actually.

Lets assume there's a godfather and three millers. Further, lets assume 3 scum maximum as the weak vig mechanic AND the power weight of the town doesn't support 4 well. Of 12 people our cop would get:

1.) Innocent on 7 with 1 incorrect.
2.) Guilty on 5 with 3 incorrect.

So, a guilty now has a higher chance to be incorrect than it does correct. Awesome. Lets delve a bit further:

What happens when a cop claims a guilty in most scenarios? They get lynched.

With that now being a mislynch BUT a miller flip there's two options:

1.) Scum kill cop. Dead cop.
2.) Scum don't kill cop.
--- Cop gets an innocent: bad for scum in most scenarios.
--- Cop gets a guilty: even after a mislynch a flat 50% to be another one.

Net result: A cop getting guiltiest has more chance to punish the town than help.

Even better than this?

You're saying that in your own proposed setup the cop managed to not hit any of the guilties BUT hit the even lower percentile 1/7 shot AND your bro Manga is saying this is the simplest solution.

Ahh, but Manga said he'd be willing to take a bullet tonight right? Thats gotta be pretty town afterall, no?

Whats TheSkewards role (yea, I doubt this part is a lie) again? What happens when one of Zang or I, in fact, get blocked?

Yessir.

I could add in some other tidbits too (the fact that I've been pretty clear its one of Darox/TS as scum and as a weak vig a Darox mislynch today would have been a 1-1 net) in detail but I'd really rather not have to.

[SpyreX]

You keep invoking Occam’s Razor like it’s an infallible proof of your innocence. Which it isn’t.

The fact that statistically you have a greater chance to be a VT instead of Godfather has no bearing on whether you are or not.

Its not infallible. There is a million things that COULD have happened. It is what it is: the simplest solution is

usually

the correct one.

However, the last part illustrates my issue with, oddly enough, both you and Skeward and how you are approaching it:

Its not "Well, even with the investigation there's a chance he's a godfather."
Or even "Well, cruelty could have been manipulated."

It's things like:

Except of course that I'd wager you are the Godfather role, and thus Cruelty is telling the truth and you are scum fake claiming. So Occam's Razor doesn't clear you at all.

[quote="TS']
AND YET, he got an INNOCENT on SpryeX, another claimed weak vig. I find it extremely likely that all the Angry Mob are millers. [/quote]

Option 2) SpryeX is scum. He claimed Angry Mob at the last minute because it felt like a good fakeclaim. The innocent on him means he's a Godfather. Likely.

Option 3) Neither are scum, but cruelty lied about his results or EB made at least one of the Angry Mob a miller and at least one not a miller. Unlikely.

Which aren't even balancing the CLEANER option against pushing through a lynch.

Know what else is missing? Reasons for me being scum. Funny how that works.

Addressing you about your typical behavior does not mean I am ignoring Skeward’s point. Thanks for using more faulty logic to somehow ‘strenghten’ your non-existant case that I am Mafia (which laughably consists of you saying “He’s Mafia’, btw).

You'll get your case when the time comes. As for my typical behavior? Yea, I only push on people who attack me at all times. You know, thats why I pushed sooo hard on Darox after his funny business early on. And, really, why I pushed on CMAR out of the gate. VV lynch too!

Say what actually is happening: I'm attacking the garbage cases and stances that make far more sense coming from scum - you, TS, Josh.

Yes, because my not voting for you and wanting to vig you at night with Zang certainly proves your point

You know what?

@Zang: If TS gets lynched today and IS town, go ahead and shoot me. Otherwise, shoot Manga.

If I'm lying you wont die.
If you're lying I wont die.

There you go.

But if we are speaking about conveniently ignoring facts, way to ignore that I breadcrumbed my role multiple times. Also way to ignore the fact that your role claim bears little resemblance to Zang and my claims in multiple ways -

1. Zang, Yosarian, and I all have jobs (Vintner, Cobbler, and Tailor) which fit nicely thematically together as normal villagers thrown together into a Mob. Your claim of Dragoon doesn’t fit closely at all.
2. Zang and my role PMS both have comic undertones to our reasons for joining the mob (Zang’ s harpy wife will not let him hide, the town misunderstood my prowess with monsters ala Mickey the Tailor) while yours has no comic undertones at all.

This is awesome. Lets pan down a little bit farther in this SAME post and go ahead and let you answer yourself why this is absolutely garbage all the way through before I go ahead and tear into it:

If anyone is lying it’s you. If you want to argue that either Zang or I have a fake-claim supplied by EB that would just as readily apply to you.

A game with the ability to post YOUR PMS in thread? Yea, there's fakeclaims. It wasn't even discussed because much like miller-land

its a given for game balance

.

So, really, you are saying: As scum the fakeclaim I was given doesn't match the actual claims.

But, lets go a bit further:

1.) Dragoon IS a "job". In fact, if one wants to get all flavor slappy it makes the most sense as a vig.
2.) CMAR's post about Yos specified that "he wasn't really a nice guy." So, if your gonna streeettch for the stars that sure doesn't add up.

Emphasis added. The disconnect here is telling for me. Everywhere else you make ZERO allowance that there could be 4 weak vigs. The quote below doesn’t say “Zang/Manga is most likely lying”. When you are attacking me 4 vigs is not possible but in the statement above you give it consideration as a possibility? Isn’t inconsistency on of your big “scum-tells”

Diggin' diggin'.

Yes, I highly doubt there are 4 total because the mechanic doesn't make sense balance-wise with what I've seen. So, like I said, mostly likely 25%.

In the event I am wrong about that then the statement becomes even more ludicrous.

Um, Weak Vig and Miller are not pieces of the same role? Are you saying Yos has more than one role? Logic fail yet again.

Yes, I am saying that because its such a huge logic fail my lord I know I have problems with logic almost as much as reading HALP ME:

Yosarian2, Miller/Weak Vigilante, Town, was murdered Night One.

Miller / Weak Vigilante. Two parts. Separated. For a reason.

And repeatedly saying Zang or I am lying doesn’t make it true. Face facts -
1. Zang was the first to claim.
2. I breadcrumbed clearly Day 1.
3. You were the last to claim Weak Vig, and with poor flavor IMO.

If anyone is lying it’s you. If you want to argue that either Zang or I have a fake-claim supplied by EB that would just as readily apply to you.

I covered this above but I'll do it again for emphasis. The scum have fakeclaims. This is all but a given for balance. Yes, this doesn't clear me. HOWEVER I AM NOT THE ONE USING IT TO TRY AND CLEAR MYSELF.

And, yes, I was the last via popcorn which means if I was scum without a fakeclaim I had the option to do anything I wanted. Which with an innocent on myself could have been a whole myriad of things that hadn't been claimed.

As for ‘betting heavy money’ I’ll wager with you the following since we actually can’t bet money –

When I die or the game ends and if I am not revealed as a Town aligned Weak Vig (not considering Miller) then you can choose any picture you want for my avatar for three months (acceptable under site rules, of course).

Likewise when you die or the game ends and if you are not revealed as a Town aligned Weak Vig I get to choose your Avatar for the same period.

Willing to put your avatar where you mouth is? I am.

Done. Choo choo buckaroo'.

Yes, because I think you are scum. The minute you went on the attack when I questioned your behavior in voting for CMAR sealed it for me. Zang and I both drew the same conclusion about the post in question. Yet you, who supposedly has the same role but comes up with tortured logic as to why you didn’t think the same, attack me as Scum with NO support at all. Scummy. The Innocent scan ties nicely with the Godfather role.

Are you arguing in a game with a Cop that it is not unlikely for there to be a Godfather scan resistant Mafia role?

Because that still isn't "dead on" no matter how many times you want to say it and it was unnecessary supposition.

If, at that point, CMAR had said what he said when he actually claimed (and go ahead and say those are the same thing) then I would have, in fact, removed my vote then as I did when they actually claimed.

And no, I haven't said there is or isn't a godfather. Again, that's not the issue - there sure could be to balance the miller OR just as easily there could not be because a false positive helps just as much as a false negative for the scum side of the equation.

Funny, you say this as if Cruelty was randomly rolling the dice and scanning. He scanned you because you found something about your play to be suspicious. So regardless of whatever probabilities existed he scanned you for a reason. Your Appeal to Statistics, yet another logical fallacy, is noted.

The result and the supposition your brother in arms is making whom you so valiantly picked up the torch for are the important parts here, still as the cop comes out with an innocent and you two have latched onto the godfather teat as though it was the last bastion of nourishment you'll ever see.

I don't care why (although, yes, I would like to know cruelties reasons for his two picks) I care about the result as a function of the whole.

If you're saying its a logical fallacy: why. Why is it? Are the statistics wrong?

The fact that if Yos hadn't been killed would have led into the beginning of the situation I detailed about the army of millers (which you, again, sure managed to not talk about) actually strengthens what I'm saying about the moonbeams TS is reaching for and you're playin' snipa with.

Back up the logic train for a second here and consider carefully the situation. Assuming we have two remaining scum (and if we have three things are much worse for Town),

A lynch, a Mafia kill and vig kill leaves 4 players. We are only in MYLO if we hit a Mafian with the lynch or vig kill. I’m town so unless we hit a Mafian with the lynch vigging me tonight ends the game in a 2 to 2 manner.

Likewise your no vig-kill only leaves us with an additional mislynch if we lynch Mafia tonight. Otherwise we are still in a LYLO situation at 3 to 2.

So we, as a Town, should be considering whatever moves we make under the assumption that incorrect ones lose the game for Town.

@Skeward – At this point I think you should be looking at either Darox or ooba as the viable lynch tonight, unless you want to lynch yourself.

@ooba and Darox – You need to weigh in with your thoughts on Vigging versus not and who the lynch should be today.

But I thought you were soooo cooool with shooting me or yourself earlier OHH NOES.

[SpyreX]

Good lord this game.

Now I'm scum buddies with TS if TS is scum.

If I reallly need to I'll respond to that load of garbagio's up there BUT how bouts instead we just go ahead and win the game right here with a TS lynch.

And, again:

If TS is town, shoot at me.
If TS is scum, shoot at manga.

[SpyreX]

You know whats fun?

Watching Manga play both sides of this argument then vanishing.

Lets do this.

[SpyreX]

Vote: Manga

The quickvote and ooba's little dance confirm it.

One more thing: Zang, did you get an action successful message?

I bet you did, since I did.

And the slapfight with Darox which really is "You think there are TWO Goons?? Psh, there are obviously no goons." is awesome.

I'm still drugged up from awesome neck pains but I'll have more tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

Yea I bet you'd really be willing to take the heat in the case that you just won the game.

What happened to your grand theory that TS and I were scum-buddies?

Ohh, you mean the same one you were espousing at the end of the day? Funny how you forgot that.

BUT, it doesn't matter because SCOOP SCOOP:

And please post your successful action message from EB so Zang can comment on it.

It was successful. And the fact you said Zang specifically means Zang's was too.

Which, normally, wouldn't matter but we have

proof that an unsuccessful message is given if the result is not successful.

Which, thus, means that if you were telling the truth about being roleblocked you wouldn't have segued into supposition - but, instead, directly said you were roleblocked.

That didn't happen. Why is that?

Dingle dangle.

[SpyreX]

What a surprise, a swing and a miss.

I didn't say anything about successful. I said unsuccessful.

Remember this:

I target Nobody Special.

Your attempt fails.

You are right about only saying that he has received the action IF IT IS SUCCESSFUL. (Hence, I know mine was because I didn't get the above).

However, you opted to come in and go "ohh snap someone was roleblocked" but then ask specifically for me to compare my successful message with Zangs.

Because, gasp, when I didn't get killed you had to claim something right. And you knew Zang was going to be successful. You just didn't remember the fact that unsuccessful actions are responded to by the mod.

Not to mention that now your claiming the setup is Godfather, Roleblocker, Doctor for scum. Which is just awesomeo.

Tinfoil theory: Manga is the godfather. That would explain the adamancy in OHH SNAP GODFATHERS MUST BE THERE EVEN THOUGH THAT MEANS OUR COP HIT THE FALSE POSITIVE AND THE FALSE NEGATIVE BACK TO BACK!

Otherwise, not sure. Tracker or Watcher, maybe? Rolecop?

Regardless, still yet, dingle dangle.

[SpyreX]

Again, I don't care about the action successful side of it. Because those are just confirmations of the actions.

The proof is in the pudding: that an unsuccessful message is given a direct and clear response from the mod which you don't have.

And if you're going to keep harping on fallacy! fallacy! show the fallacy. Show it.

Because you've claimed that all the scum are power roles and that the cop hit the godfather. If you really want to keep harping on that we can go play the probabilities with it. (double protip: "Appeal to Statistics" isn't a fallacy - in fact, what you keep harping on is a beautiful hybrid of two logical fallacies in itself but I digress).

OHH SNAP MORE CAPS YEEHAW

Setup speculation isn't scummy. However, when your setup speculation is only a function of trying to push through a garbage lynch (note, again the arguing with Darox under the you can't BELIEVE two goons in this setup) then the function itself is scummy.

Because its coming from scum.

[SpyreX]

Fair enough.

BOOM. Vig: Manga

Confirmed. Thanks!

Vig: NS

Action confirmed.

Hells bells. It BETTER not be Zang. Vig: Manga

Confirmed!

[SpyreX]

Sure looks like I posted and sure looks like I'm not dead. Sure doesn't look like thats a rule now, does it.

Where's that unsuccessful message again?

Yea, thats right.

@Zang:

Look at what I quoted about TheSkeward. Unsuccessful actions are told so by the mod. Manga came in insinuating he was roleblocked but, as we can see, thats not the case.

The reason I didn't die is because he's faking it. That's why in order to push this its now ohh snap Godfather, Doctor AND Roleblocker the scumteam

[SpyreX]

Because the TARGET in that case was fine. The action, itself, was successful. They didn't die because two people didn't target.

What he's saying here is that he was roleblocked. Which would mean his action of targetting was unsuccessful and should have, thus, spawned that note from the mod.

I'm not even sure where in the rules he got that mystical statement about faking (its not there). So, gambits within gambits.

Simple version: He's scum. He tried to insinuate a roleblock as for why I'm not dead but the evidence isn't there that it happened. Everything else is white noise to that fact. For added fun look at ooba's and his interaction today. I'd put hard money on Ooba being the partner.

[SpyreX]

?

If there is a driver then sure. However, if thats the case unless we're back to the super-powerteam scum yeehaw his vote is still a joke.

I don't think there's a driver, though. It doesn't seem to have the right mesh in the setup from what we've seen.

[SpyreX]

If I was faking it I would have posted incorrect messages from EB then, wouldn't I? Oh wait, you said it isn't a rule because you weren't killed. Thanks for confirming your posts were doctored Rolling Eyes

I said there looked like there was a role-blocker. Never said that I was role-blocked. Way to misrep as usual. And Ooba's point about a redirector is potentally the solution to your little paradox as to why there is no "fail message" received by Zang or myself.

This one Zang?

First off, I love the stretch. He went "SPYREX SURE DIDNT DO THAT CAUSE HE'D DIE" and I did. Which means the "rule" he was trying to apply either a.) confirms me as not lying or b.) doesn't exist. Either way its garbage.

And, especially when you can quote the damn mod I'm not about to flout that as hay look how town I am. Because, like the flavor arguments, its absolute junk.

And nah, he never claimed roleblocked, right?:

I opted to shoot Sprexy. Unless Zang chose not to shoot Spyrex Mafia has a role-blocker.

Look at that real close. It's pretty clearly saying "One of Zang or I were roleblocked."

Then, lets go ahead and look later:

And please post your successful action message from EB so Zang can comment on it.

For that to have any real relevance to today it would have to be

talking about last night.

In order for that to make sense, we would have both had to have been successful.

So, when you combine the two thought processes you get: Manga was roleblocked.

Which isn't the case.

And redirector didn't even get brought up today until Ooba did it in his pat-on-the-back don't vote so fast post.

That came right back after Darox posted and he went on the offensive with Darox.

Further, a redirector doesn't make sense because it would redirect everyone targetting a target right?

Which means if I was a scum-redirector the game would be over because if both of you were telling the truth there would have been 2 kills last night. (Scum Kill + Whomever I redirected myself to).

It flat doesn't add up. If you really need to go through and show all the crap I will but just go ahead and reread the game.

While you're doing that the dynamic duo need to speak up.

[SpyreX]

@Mod: Can you prod our estranged game.

You keep saying things like Super-powerteam scum? Do you not think that the Mafia should be expected to have some offsetting powers for a set-up with a true Cop, town Roleblocker, a Vig variant that can’t be eliminated with one kill, and whatever CryMe could squeeze out of his role?

Of course you don’t because that’s the only argument you have … that my speculation about the Mafia make-up is bad.

Its ridiculous and its changed to fit whatever you need.

Cop/Roleblocker/Multi-Vig that can't communicate (and one is a Miller)/Spiritualist

Versus you're latest talk: Godfather/Redirector/Doctor.

Lets just look at how awesome and balanced this is for just one of the town power roles:

The "True Cop", who in your new awesome setup that has two roles that directly give false results AND, realistically, is only going to be able to hit the doctor because a redirector would be bouncing himself with someone. Can't trust a guilty, can't trust an innocent. Awesome.

Again, speculating why your Scum self didn’t die without having input from Zang. The crux of your painfully weak flailing.

Yea, real painfully weak. I mean, you didn't say that? That's not exactly what you were implying?

Way to go off on a wild tangent. I asked you to post it because I didn’t figure that you could make crap up. As you said that guess was wrong, you can fabricate. Note you didn’t post at all until after I did, and only at the prompting of your most likely scum-partner Darox.

And until Zang confirmed he wasn’t roleblocked after said posts it was a working theory. Neat how a working theory is treated as a scum-tell by you.

Haha. No.

It wasn't a guess. You said it was a rule. That didn't exist.

Again: You said it was a mod rule. That didn't exist.

That's kinda important.

And no I didn't post until Darox did because it changes nothing. I don't have a block message. That's not what I'm talking about. Further, like I've said every step of the way:

all of that is absolute garbage because in a setup where you can quote the mod interaction none of it is a "towntell" because guaranteed the scum were given fakeclaims.

I mean, it'd be like claiming a breadcrumb somehow makes you more town in this setup.....

Ohh thats right. So lets skip that part.

I didn’t vote for CryMe when he spilled Angry Mob mechanics.

Sprexy didn’t pick up on breadcrumbs, doesn’t react to CryMe’s statement as Zang and I do.

Those mechanics were, and are, still wrong. Keep on keepin' on. And yea, wasn't hunting down breadcrumbs because SEE ABOVE ONCE AGAIN.

3. Who has the weakest claim regarding his WV role? The confirmed Weak Vig is a Vintner. We have claims of a Cobbler (Zang), a Tailor (myself) and a Dragoon (Sprexy). To quote Sesame Street, “One of these things is not like the others”. And that thing is a Military role when compared to three peasant style roles.

I love the doublespeak. Lets go way back.

If anyone is lying it’s you. If you want to argue that either Zang or I have a fake-claim supplied by EB that would just as readily apply to you.

So, preemptively when the heat is on you throw down the fake-claim is supplied by EB.

Yet, now, you try to use flavor to push it through.

Lets make this real clear: you are saying I'm scum because the fake-claim provided to me by the mod doesn't make sense with the other roles he gave out.

Yep.

The responses to Zang and myself read as conversational. Note the similar phrasing and use of Okies in responses to us. Sprex’s “responses” all are mechanical and out of place compared to ours.

Let’s also look at TheSkeward’s responses and look to see which matches more closely – Zang’s and mine or Sprexy’s?

And if I was making them up I'd make them look different because?

Yee-haw.

So when TS targeted a Vanilla Town his action failed. Yet when Darox was targeted his action succeded. Could perhaps Darox be Sprexy’s scum compatriot Redirector / whatever role saved Scum Sprexy?

I want someone to explain to me what this is supposed to mean. In words that make sense. And how that relates to last night in any way, shape or form.

And, lets end on a positive note:

And if you're going to keep harping on fallacy! fallacy! show the fallacy. Show it.

Because you've claimed that all the scum are power roles and that the cop hit the godfather. If you really want to keep harping on that we can go play the probabilities with it. (double protip: "Appeal to Statistics" isn't a fallacy - in fact, what you keep harping on is a beautiful hybrid of two logical fallacies in itself but I digress).

I'm still waiting on that. You know, the whole part where after I claimed AND had an innocent and you knew that meant a bucket of screwed and started screaming godfather godfather!

Then, when I explained how retarded that was opted to scream fallacy fallacy instead.

Yea, that.

[SpyreX]

That doesn't upset the party Darox - thats exactly what I've been saying.

The results make it pretty clear no one was blocked. Which means my being dead means one of them is lying. Which is WAAY Manga. Note that the redirector bit didn't happen until after it was brought up by someone else.

Additionally, ISO Manga, look at when he started attacking me. Yep, it was after the massclaim.

Also, for captain flavor-arguments look at this little jewel from way earlier in the game:

Let me just say for the record that the fact that no-one seems to have considered the possibility of fake-claims provided by the Mod I find odd.

Yea. Look at the latest arguments and that little nugget.

[SpyreX]

How bout instead of losing the game we, instead, just go ahead and win it?

Darox isn't scum. Its Manga and Ooba.

Seriously what more do you need from me to show how flailtastic this business has been with Manga?

[SpyreX]

Check the discussion early today. Manga throws a vote out and "claims" roleblocked. Ooba, in essence, calls that stupid mentions the redirector and tells him to unvote.

He does. Since then its been redirector talk.

One it was apparent you weren't going to slap down a power vote (allowing them to quickhammer) he puts his vote back.

Ooba falls off face of earth.

[SpyreX]

Because the roleblocker talk absolutely fell through. So, Ooba presented a different bs option that he ran with.

And, both of them taking off their votes was on the offchance when you came in you'd throw down a vote. When that didn't happen, Manga's vote came back.

How about this: How is arguing flavor when early on he clearly said the mod provided fakeclaims NOT scummy?

[SpyreX]

.... I didn't expect to see THIS when I got back. Good gravy.

Speaking of, I found it really funny that 1) there was any doubt at all that fake claims were provided when there was no sample vanilla and every role was different and 2) people took breadcrumbs so seriously. 3) in a game with quotable PMs anyone thought they couldn't fake PMs from me.

A thousand times this. I'm still surprised at how that went. I was really, really afraid that Zang or someone would just quote TheSkeward and vote me. I dont think there would have been much to do at that point but take it and pray Ooba could pull it out.

I have to ask the scum - what was your reaction to hearing that the dead were still in the game? I was hoping it would be a nice curveball for ya.

Well, see, I killed Yos because I had a feeling he'd be key to it all falling apart. Knowing that he could chatter even then was worrisome. CMAR having an entire confirmed alliance to talk to was too much. That was a no question death.

The issue there was partly play, though, and very much not keeping his fake claim in mind during the first two days, imo.

I kinda kept it in mind. I still hold that CMAR's first statement didn't even make me blink because the wording seemed so weird I honestly assumed it was just a guess based on the weak vig mechanic. (and was actually worried there was an actual "group" of weak vigs who would instantly screw me but couldn't sweat that because that'd just be an unfixable situation).

Realistically, when I saw it was just Ooba and I I had three goals:

1.) Actively and aggressively lynch someone from the other scum faction (this KINDA worked).
2.) Draw a cop investigation.
3.) Hopefully not ever have to bus Ooba.

From that point it was just kinda playing it by ear. What -I- tried to do worked.

Did the traitor have a kill? Actually, Josh NOT claiming doctor was about the best thing he could have done because the way day 1 was going chances were more than decent I would have been lynched (or put in a position where all the vigs came out) AND he would have been a prime kill target. Which, well, ouch.

Interesting setup. Spiritualist, as scum, is a really worrisome role because killing people in the hopes to lobotomize the town doesn't work too hot when they're still around. Angry Mob is a neat mechanic. Personally, I didn't like the cop in this setup - I think a tracker would have been a better fit. (I also don't like cops in general soo).

Solid though. Setup, Modding and players for the most part - although watching 2.5 active in lylo and then a powerlynch on someone else entirely still makes the head hurt some even for a win.

[SpyreX]

To be fair there WAS logic behind it. He was arguing flavor in a setup where it made no sense. He was arguing hard that the cop just happened to hit two roles that gave false results. He was arguing for a no goon scumteam.

He just happened to be right on all accounts.

I have no idea how I managed to get VV AND TheSkeward lynched and not get murdered for it. I'll take it though.