Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Locke Lamora]

/confirm.

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: ekiM

He was very pro-town looking scum last time I played with him. Early pressure might sort that out.

[Locke Lamora]

And that's a scumtell how?

[Locke Lamora]

Zach: you think my activity in the first 24 hours of this game has been scummy/unacceptable? What exactly do you expect from hohum?

[Locke Lamora]

I'd say it's quite common for me to start a game like that regardless of alignment.

So your issue with hohum's vote was that it wasn't aggressive enough for town-hohum?

[Locke Lamora]

Lot of vote-hopping early on here, Zach. Is this normal for you?

[Locke Lamora]

Sotty: I'm taking a particular interest in Zach's early vote-hopping because we literally just finished another game with each other, as you might know (Mini 918 for those who don't). He replaced into that as scum and I remember him putting his vote about very little. He also wasn't particularly active (although part of that was completely out of his control). As for whether I find it scummy, not particularly. What Vi called his 'activity police' act after only 24 hours I thought was unjustified, but I can see why town-Zach would be looking at me for lurking early on when in his experience I've been active as town and lurky as scum. What I found a little odd is that he said his random vote was completely arbitrary when he was obviously interested in pressuring me early on in the game. In short, getting a mild town read off Zach early on, I get the impression he's genuinely interested in finding scum.

As for Vi, I have to agree with DDD that I'm really enjoying the posting style. Don't agree with him on ekiM, I think he's just looking to get into the game and gather some info with a few questions and I don't see anything scummy about that. I thought it was interesting that Vi noted Flutter is posting to type so far - it didn't seem to be a statement that indicated any specific thoughts about alignment but left room for defending Flutter later should the need arise. Keeping him on a neutral read until I get more used to the style.

ekiM: I'm looking at the random votes of anyone on the Reck wagon on that front. Kyle in particular, as he leapt on the wagon and hasn't posted since. It was an easy 'random' vote to make yet still got a viable Reck wagon going - exactly the kind of thing that could be excused later simply by claiming its randomness.

I played Lost Mafia with Reckoner a while back and I thought he was scummy as hell D1 but he turned out to be town. His push on Zach and then change of position is terrible but not unfamiliar - I remember him misreading a post on D1 in that previous game that got him into a lot of trouble because he built some half-joking case based around CDB's role history. I'm not reading too much into this Zach vote as a result.

Kyle: what do you think of Reckoner right now?

[Locke Lamora]

Vi: 'interesting' for me generally means I find something that's worth noting but I haven't decided what to make of it. I wasn't sure precisely what the point of the comment was or what your motivation was for posting it. I also thought it was a little out of place - you go on the attack against Zach, hohum and ekiM, but flinter gets addressed in a much more neutral way that suggests a mild town read. I see you've now somewhat revised your view of flinter based on a previous game, so where did the rationale for your previous flinter statement come from if not meta?

Kyle: so you think voting 'every which way' is scummy, or is there something about the way Zach specifically is doing it? Have you seen Reckoner get wagoned on D1 in your previous games with him?

[Locke Lamora]

Sotty: I'm taking a particular interest in Zach's early vote-hopping because we literally just finished another game with each other, as you might know (Mini 918 for those who don't). He replaced into that as scum and I remember him putting his vote about very little. He also wasn't particularly active (although part of that was completely out of his control). As for whether I find it scummy, not particularly. What Vi called his 'activity police' act after only 24 hours I thought was unjustified, but I can see why town-Zach would be looking at me for lurking early on when in his experience I've been active as town and lurky as scum. What I found a little odd is that he said his random vote was completely arbitrary when he was obviously interested in pressuring me early on in the game. In short, getting a mild town read off Zach early on, I get the impression he's genuinely interested in finding scum.

So let me get this straight. So you pushed and questioned Zach because his behavior (vote-hopping, lots of posting) was the exact opposite of your scum experience with him? So what was the point to the questions? If you are getting a town read off him shouldn't you be looking else where? The way you questioned him made it look like you were trying to make him look scummy but you didn't commit and now you are backing a away from it when other players have called him likely town.

Unvote, Vote: Locke

You think Zach playing the exact opposite of the game I just played with him is good reason to look elsewhere? I think a deliberate effort to play differently is more likely to be scum-motivated than town-motivated. Zach's scum flip at the end of 918 came at almost exactly the same time as the start of this game and any attempt to play differently would quite clearly be affected by that. I questioned him because I wanted to hear his motivations; they sounded genuine rather than contrived so I got a town read. As far as I can see, you misrep me here on two fronts: first of all, you say that I was questioning Zach even though I had a town read on him, a read which I developed in response to his answers; and secondly you say I was questioning him to try and make him look scummy when what I was actually trying to do is work out whether his motivations were scummy.

Unvote;Vote: Sotty

ekiM's willingness to agree with Sotty's conclusions also noted. You can assume that I'm trying to cast aspersions all you want, but what I actually asked was simply whether Zach normally put his vote about a lot at the start of a game. I didn't say 'Zach's vote hopping is scummy'.

flinter: your assumptions about ekiM are based on flawed criteria. Do you think scum are reluctant, never read the rules or pay attention to the game?

[Locke Lamora]

An easy wagon? Was Zach being wagoned at the start of the game and I missed it? I don't know Zach's play all that well and I certainly don't know whether he likes to put his vote about at the start of games. From my perspective, I'd just lynched him as scum and here he was playing completely differently from what I'd seen in that previous game. That was my primary focus at the start of the game because naturally that was fresh in my mind and the first thing I picked up on when reading through. If my failure to acknowledge other players in the first two or three pages is scummy to you, there's not a lot I can say about that.

[Locke Lamora]

You're disappointed in me? Sorry, have we met? I didn't know you had any expectations. Also, if you'd been reading my exchange with Sotty, you'd see that I had Zach's motivations strongly in mind with my early line of questioning.

Are you still referring to ekiM asking about the rules when you say he investigated? Last time I checked, scum still had to play by the rules too. They are also capable of investigating and often need to because they don't have all the information either. In any case, perhaps you can tell me why ekiM must have had pro-town motives for asking for clarification about that particular rule?

[Locke Lamora]

flinter: I just don't see how asking about the rules is a tell either way. There was absolutely nothing that was inherently pro-town about the question ekiM asked and it's not even investigative interest in another player. As far as I'm concerned, it has no bearing on his alignment whatsoever and town is not in the slightest bit more likely to ask a question about whether players can post in twilight than scum.

I agree that scum are not as likely to have genuine interest in investigating a player (exceptions being multiple scumteams or PR hunting) and that sometimes this can be discerned by looking at motivations and responses to information. What I think is totally flawed is your idea that because someone looks like they're investigating

anything

, they are more likely to be town.

[Locke Lamora]

Sotty: I was unsure of Zach's motives, so my tone was naturally a little suspicious. I asked some questions, got a better read on his motives and drew my conclusions. That's it. Anything else is just you reading into it what you want to read into it.

Kyle: have you got any leads apart from flinter yet?

Reckoner: that's less than helpful. It would be better if you started talking about someone other than Vi. Sotty, for instance, who you voted and have subsequently said nothing about.

[Locke Lamora]

What do you class as legitimate? If you think my tone or method of investigation is scummy, then surely you have a legitimate reason to question me? I'm trying to draw a line under it because there's nothing else that I can say in response. I've explained my frame of mind and my aims with the questions; you've detected what you think is me trying to make Zach look scummy and then backing off. If my explanation has not satisfied you, I'm not sure what you're looking for. As far as I can see, the only way this discussion would continue is you keep saying you think I'm scum who made a failed attempt at making Zach look bad, and I keep repeating the reasons I already gave for my actions.

[Locke Lamora]

Sotty: I thought Vi's case on Percy was quite indecipherable, actually. I had to go back and read it a few times before I got all of it. I don't think Percy's scummy and nothing much seems to have come of it. As for Ortolan, I think he's made some easy votes on Reckoner and Flinter and hasn't offered much else. My own personal experience of hohum is that he can frequently be quite hostile and berate people (for policy reasons or otherwise) as town, so I'm dubious about whether that scum meta reference is of any worth.

I'm going to be busy over the next few days so my posting frequency will probably go down, just wanted to let everyone know.

Mod: possible V/LA until Monday

[Locke Lamora]

I'm here. Reading up.

[Locke Lamora]

Right, my main thoughts and responses to people:

Jahudo: I usually unvote when I vote for someone else. I rarely do it by itself. I hadn't unvoted ekiM because I wasn't yet inclined to vote for someone else.

Sotty: I voted for you because it felt like you were misrepping me and basing your whole case on what you perceived to be the implications of my posts, not the posts themselves.

Reckoner is bothering me now. His early bad vote on Zach looked more like town-Reck to me but his 'lynch me' attitude does not match to what I know of him from Lost Mafia. He seemed committed to that game throughout D1 even when he was frustrated at being wagoned. How much of this is down to him not having much time to post is hard to tell but I find the AtEish tone very scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Reckoner

Zach: you suggested that Sotty is playing to her scum meta by casting doubt on her suspicions of you, then you didn't follow it up at all. Does this mean you don't really think Sotty is scummy for doing so?

[Locke Lamora]

I don't think DDD is scummy, his posts feel similar to the last time I played with him as town. I'd support Jack's based on flinter's play, I need to read Jack more thoroughly to be more sure about that slot. I'm reading hohum as town.

Vi, although that lynch would never happen at this stage, is increasingly pinging my scumdar; I particularly don't like his recent vote on ortolan which is in clear contrast to his call for bigger wagons and I feel it's too close to deadline for a major change of direction. I'm also dubious of him saying he's having a hard time getting reads; it doesn't seem to fit with the tone of his posts.

I'm waiting to hear from Zach before I say any more on him and Sotty.

[Locke Lamora]

In the hohum case, you said you found it scummy when he cared about Reckoner replacing out but not flinter. I assume you think this is scummy because you don't think hohum treated Reckoner and flinter in the same way?

[Locke Lamora]

ekiM: my previous experience with hohum gave me a very similar read. I won't say any more as it's an ongoing game. As for the Reckoner/flinter thing, the way I read it they were completely different situations. Reck threatened to replace out under pressure and did not, flinter gave no indication of wanting to replace out and then suddenly vanished. I don't see why hohum not treating them the same way is scummy.

I can't say I'm particularly enthusiastic about any of these wagons. I'm going to read back and decide where best to place my vote as the Reck wagon is clearly not happening.

[Locke Lamora]

Zach: what's a 'real excuse', exactly?

So, in terms of the viable wagons:

I really don't see why hohum saying his vote is locked on and still having other suspects is a tell at all. He wants Reck lynched but he also suspects other people. The fact that people are pushing his wagon based on reasons like this is enough to convince me he's not a good lynch.

I also really don't see the ortolan case. I agree with his earlier point about Reckoner's style as town and I don't think he's been lurking a great deal either. His frustration reads as annoyed townie to me.

Nothing about Jack jumps out at me as particularly scummy; it's flinter I'm bothered about. Her insistence that ekiM was somehow pro-town for asking about the rules did not strike me as rigorous scumhunting and her whole approach to the game appeared to be based around the idea that other people were 'nitpicking' on mistakes instead of properly looking for scum. This seemed to be more a focus of her approach than scumhunting itself. I'd much rather lynch this slot than hohum's, so:

Unvote; Vote: Jack

[Locke Lamora]

I can provide reasons if you like. Is that relevant to my alignment?

[Locke Lamora]

I was dealing with the more pressing matter of putting my vote somewhere before the deadline. The interaction between you and Sotty was something that caught my attention but was not particularly relevant to where I put my vote today.

In any event, it seems we have more time. Reading your response, my question to you is why is it just a nagging concern rather than something more worrying? If this departs from how town-Sotty treats you, what about her play makes you hesitate to think she's scum?

[Locke Lamora]

Vi: because that's exactly what I thought about Reckoner. When I played with town-Reck, he never expressed a desire to give up despite being wagoned to claiming on D1. His 'lynch me' post was a clear departure from that and I immediately thought exactly what ortolan did.

[Locke Lamora]

Vi: Lost Mafia. It's on my wiki.

[Locke Lamora]

Percy: flinter replacing out is nothing like Reckoner threatening to replace out. Did flinter 'go all emo'? As I understood it, hohum's point was that Reck was going into a sulk and giving up. I didn't see the same from flinter.

[Locke Lamora]

BC requested replacement and bitched at hohum for a bit about it. I'm not saying flinter replacing out isn't scummy, although she does legitimately seem to lack time, I'm just saying I can see why town-hohum would react to Reckoner's attitude and threat to replace but not to flinter's actual replacement.

I'm interested in lynches on Jack, Reckoner and Vi.

Vi: you suggested that ortolan going after the VIs was scummy; on the same grounds, what do you make of ekiM's early post where he listed kyle, Reck and myself in his scummy category?

[Locke Lamora]

I'll ask hohum.

Hohum: why did you find Reck's 'lynch me' attitude more vote-worthy than flinter's replacing out?

[Locke Lamora]

Everyone's a journalist these days. I want the exclusive.

[Locke Lamora]

Reckoner: DDD wagon is not happening. If you favour the Cobalt lynch, vote for Cobalt. A DDD vote means precisely nothing this close to deadline. You also make one catchup post, complain that no-one has asked you questions, then when Zach does, you ignore him. Did you have a small window where you were going to pretend to be pro-town but everyone missed it?

[Locke Lamora]

Mod: really sorry but I'm going to have no home internet access at all in the next three weeks, so I'll basically only be online once or twice a week if I manage to get to an internet cafe. As a result, I think replacing me would be best. If finding a replacement is a real problem then I'll do my best to post what I can at those times but obviously I'm not going to be able to do a great deal.

Not a problem. Searching for a replacement now. ~The mod

[Locke Lamora]

Nice setup, VP, really liked the thinking about the roles and how the night actions would affect the game. Great scum play from Sotty too. Sorry for replacing out, thanks to Amished for replacing in and doing a good job - apologies if I made your job a lot harder, which I probably did!