Mini 935 -- The Fountainhead (Completed)

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Cherries

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That's a lie...it's actually a peach...I can eat a peach for hours.

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played with quite a few of you before i see

Doesn't read directions well i see...

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Vote: Al GM

for having a lie detector and not sharing... /pout

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My vote is NOT any better than anyone else.

I actually have no reason be be on either wagon to be honest.

I have to agree that Zang's 'over-defensiveness" is a null tell at best. I have done similar (and probably will many more times to come) as town.

I don't think any of the reason's for either wagon are good enough for a lynch or my vote for that matter.

Unvote

SpyreX: what was the purpose of your last post? Why did you feel the need to inform us that you were waiting on 'things to happen that you need to happen'? Why did you need to post this filler post?

Dex: Do you feel that when someone gets defensive about an accusation, it's most likely a scum-tell or is there something different about Zang's over-reaction that makes it more scummy than if he were a townie over-reacting. Basically, what about his reaction made it more likely coming from scum over town in your opinion?

Everyone: I think this would be a good time to explain in a new post why you have your vote on whoever it is on ('look at my previous posts as to why' comments aren't going to be constructive at this point imo). I think we fairly clear of the RVS and I think it would be constructive to consolidate in the next post why you are so that everyone else can fully understand your reason AND so you can explore if your reason is good enough.

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d3x: to answer your question, I would place my vote on Horror right now if he were around. I don't like the minimal posting with no content. It looked liked active lurking to me, but with the situation he's facing now, I can't be entirely certain it's not just due to lack of interest/time. We'll see if/when he returns.

Second place would have to be Zang in my book actually. When you asked the question of who I found suspicious, all I could think of was a big fat nobody. This game is moving quite fast so far and the posts are short and sweet. I had to go back and take careful notes to come up with anything. I guess most of the stuff I now have down was just lost in the pure quantity of posts. Zang's in second place right now due to me just not believing his excuse for reacting the way he did. It was pretty clear that SpyreX was giving a 'what if' scenario and he blew it way out of control because he felt he was being attacked. That being said, he's only in second place above my third place do to the amount of 'bad' notes I have on him, not necessarily the quality.

Third place actually goes to cruelty for lying. Specifically p49 where he said he read the rules but just doesn't like fruit. I'm calling bullshit right now. You join a game, it has a Mod, the mod wants you to list a fruit to see if you read the rules, you want to list SOMETHING to do with fruit to show said Mod you read the rules to HIS game. Even if it was 'I don't like fruit at all', at least you are mentioning fruit to let the mod know you read the rules. Had cruel just admitted he didn't read the rules, I wouldn't have a problem with him. But why lie?

Vote: cruelty

(for lying to my FACE!)

hey d3x, I did have a question on your p39. Why did you even right up a 'clarification post' if you were going to attack Zang with it if your post did in fact clarify the issue for him however small that clarification was? Where you really even trying to clarify the issue for him to begin with?

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budja: read my post again for why I'm voting cruelty over Zang.

'Sudden change on Zang' was also explained in my post but I'll clarify if it wasn't clear for you. Zang has more (quantity) post that strike me the wrong way than I had previously thought. I re-read everything and certain things stuck out to me during the reread than stood out to me before. The only reason Zang is number 2 right now is due to more quantity of his post vs the quantity of cruel's posts. Zang has more post that strike me the wrong way, but cruelty's flat out lie (the way I see it anyway) means more than the possible misunderstanding of Zang's posts.

Basically, what I see as Cruelty's blatant lie is more deserving of my vote than Zang's possible lie. The second reason for my vote on Cruel over Zang is for pressure on Cruel to give more quantity so that I can get a better read on him. If I were to vote Zang over Cruel, cruelty wouldn't have as much pressure and thus wouldn't feel as much need to post more quantity. Make sense now?

Also, what is the reason for your vote on me? Is it because I am the scummiest person in your eyes, or is it for possibly another motive...pressure for instance. I have the feeling it's more pressure than me suddenly moving to your number one spot, therefore, I'm sure you can understand my reasoning listed above.

peace out.

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/facepalm

Really Zang? Really? Read the damn posts before you comment on them. Read them even closer if you are going to quote them.

Beginning to see the sad sack (ie. VI) part of Zang more clearly now...

AGM: I'm not saying it's scummy to not read the rules. That's null if anything. Lying about almost anything as a townie IS scummy behavior (imo) however. What motivation do town have for lies? I can't think of any. Do you have some reasons a townie would need to lie? If you do, do they apply to lies that attempt to make one 'fit in'?

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Well, I STILL don't like that cruelty lied (from my view point) even about something so trivial. I don't think it's a null tell. This isn't a newbie game. I don't buy the embarrassed remark as an excuse (note: cruelty didn't give this reason). That being said, there's not much else from him that strikes me as scummy atm.

I will say that I believe there is a VERY thin line between ultra cautious town and scum.

p153: lol, no.

p157: I agree with DDD here. This is the way I read it when catching up. That said, I disagree with d3x .

d3x

: What are these motives you question? What makes Fate's revote of horror suspicious? What scum motivation for doing that do you see? Though I see you backed off on p164, I'd still like to see what scum motivation there would have been if he hadn't posted the quoted text earlier.

Zang

: p161. He's back. IF you were waiting on him, what are you waiting for now? Do you not have any questions for him? He even posted that he would be looking for questions his way. What are you waiting for? Him to post something scummy so you can jump all over it? I can no longer ignore your play style. Explain your thoughts and reasons for your last few posts. Namely, explain what you are waiting for Horror to say/answer, why you haven't questioned him since you seem to have tunnel vision, and why you didn't address your mis-read of my quality/quantity post.

unvote, Vote: Zang

Horror

: You have a lot of catching up to do, so I won't bombard you with a shit ton of questions. Only one thing really that I'd like to you handle right now (aside from your catching up and analysis of the game thus far).

In you ISO, p1 looks like an RVS/joke vote, p2 looks like an actual accusation/scum-hunting question about the person you RVS voted, and p3 is an unvote stating that it was just an RVS vote to begin with and you don't really think Zang has done anything scummy to deserve your vote (and has the hint that you will be overlooking him in your question to find someone who is scummy in your opinion).

Basically, these posts don't really line up. Do you think Zang explained his "overreaction" well enough for you to not be suspicious of it? If so, why did you use the 'it was an RVS vote' reason for unvoting instead of something like 'i believe his reasoning for overreacting'? This is where the main contradiction lies for me at least. That said, there's not much else to go on until you catch up and posts some thoughts or 'find someone scummy iyo'.

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/sigh indeed. ah well.

I have to say I agree with Fate's p168 in that Zang would be a good vig hit. That said, I wouldn't know who else would be a good lynch today. Everyone else seems to be playing a pretty tight game in that the scum are blending in well with everyone else so far IMO. We need more discussion.

It did strike me a tad bit odd this comment from Horror: "PLEASE don't take it out on my replacement." I don't know how I feel about that. It's something I could see myself saying if I replaced out w/e my alignment...at the same time though....I dunno, just a tad odd like I said.

/sigh again. Time for another re-read....yay...

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I WAS waiting for him to defend himself but NOW I'm waiting for his replacement. Nobody genneraly look like scum. Horror was the only one who made me think scum but that could just be because of life so if his replacement is just as bad then there's a good chance he might be scum. And i didn't ask him because he shouldn't need questions to be able to defend himself.

This post fails in so many ways. So you are basically saying that in the 8 posts Horror placed in this game (including RVS) that you have decided he is the only scummy person so far this game? Is there a reason you are unwilling to look elsewhere and are content to just sit and wait around for Horror's replacement to...to...to what exactly? Stick his/her foot in his/her mouth so you can hopefully start a wagon that isn't yours? You complain about Horror not defending himself, but I don't much a defense from you either. Doesn't that seem a little contradictory to you?

If we had less time till deadline, I would agree with Porkens. That being said, we have far too much time left till deadline to just "get this one over with".

Porkens: Please explain to me how getting this one over with 3.5 weeks before deadline helps town. Please explain to me how we can gain no further information than we currently have now by waiting till closer to deadline.

FoS: Porkens

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Spyre and Pork: What would be the ideal date for you to finish up this day one with a Zang lynch? If you had your way, would we finish up this lynch tomorrow? This weekend?

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So you guys don't personally want and don't want the rest of us to be able to get a read on Horror's replacement before going into D2? I can't possibly fathom how this is best for town. In fact, this viewpoint is worse than anything we every had on Horror.

Spyre: Do you think a week or 100 posts from now (assuming we get a replacement very shortly) would be a good amount of time to get a read on Horror's replacement?

Porkens: What is so damning about horror's limited play that makes you feel "fine" with lynching him today? What's the case on him from your POV?

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OMG people. I wasn't a fan of Horror being town. I've posted this. But aside from unanswered questions, wtf are you guys trying to lynch him for again? Am I the only one who is dumbstruck by Budja and Porkens view on lynching Horror?

To clarify, my main issue with Horror was the appearance of contradiction and/or lies in his vote for Zang and subsequent unvote and the reason behind it. How many pages were we in to the game when he stopped posting content directly related to game play?...At this point, Horror was the scummiest for not answering. He has given us his reasons for not answering and is replacing out.

I really don't like these 'lynch quickly for a short day 1' or 'lynch the player who posted a total of 9 posts' ideas. They seem very rushed and not helpful. It gives me the impression that you 3 feel day one is utterly pointless in which I have to fully and unequivocally disagree.

You people are in a crazy rush for some reason and I would like you to explain why with better reasons than 'I don't like long day ones' or 'he didn't defend against stuff we questioned him on and is replacing out....lynch the player'. For those of you still wanting a Horror lynch no matter what, please explain to me how your case on horror is stronger than that on Zang, cruelty, or AGM. Make comparisons to the cases and why because of those comparisons, you still feel Horror is more scummy than the rest of those receiving votes att.

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RC: Looks like we agree on quite a few things. If I am the only one that thinks more time is better, so be it. It all sorta felt rushed to me.

No, I do not think Porkens is "worse" than Horror. I had horror at the top of my scum list not too far back (Zang has subsequently replaced him). If you are refering to the FoS, it was in there to make sure Porkens explained his views as I didn't understand them.

Spyre: Horror is not an honor scout. I never said he was. I don't even think I have ever defended him. Please show me, in quotes, where you feel I did said defending. I'm trying to figure out what makes him a better lynch than Zang. All I see is his contradictory posts early on and then V/LA and Replacement. Hell, even in the post where he asked to be replaced, I pointed out scumminess. You need to explain, with quotes, how I am doing these things you accuse me of.
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If Horror is posting in other games and replacing out in this one, combined with his plea for us to not take out anything on his replacement, THAT is something I am for sure willing to lynch for. I will check for myself these posts in which you speak to confirm for myself before shooting from the hip though.

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March 10th, 12:23am, Newbie 915, game length is 8 pages: Horror posts a game related question and mentions nothing about needing to replace out.

March 9th, 6:20pm, Newbie 926, length is new game 1 page: Horror /cofirms he is ready for game.

March 9th, 6:21pm - 09:01pm, game length is 8 pages: Horror does a re-read and then posts 5 game related posts during time frame. Mentions nothing about needing to be replaced out.

March 4th, 11:57pm, game length is 56 pages: Horror has post about having a rough time. Has yet to ask to be replaced out of this game.

Like I said, this combined with plea for us to not hold grudge for his replacement in this game...doesn't get more suspicious or scummy than that IMO. It also forces me to view his first posts in a different light.

Unvote, Vote: Horror

He is now at L-1.

Horror: Anything to say?

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Well, at least we won't be losing a PR. All we'll be losing (assuming you're telling the truth) is someone who can not be confirmed as town in the event we have a Cop. Cop wastes (imo) an investigation on you just find get a guilty result which means you're telling the truth or you're scum. Smart play as scum as it was probably the only chance you had to even try and sway someone. Not swaying me. You (or your predecessor really) are the weakest link. Goodbye.

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The "oh well" attitude stems from me believing Horror was scummy for his replacing out of this game and not the rest (in fact he's still active in some of the others and confirmed to start in a brand new one) and your role not being confirmable whether you are or aren't telling the truth. Not "oh well" that we are lynching a townie.

That being said, you really think Fate or RC are scummy. What about them says scum to you? quotes would be nice, post numbers sufficient. Also, are you dropping the DDD defending Fate claim? If not, could you please point out where you see this exchange happening?

Lastly, if you could place yourself in our shoes for a minute, would you unvote Horror and his replacement what with the evidence against him? Do you not think it scummy to replace out of a game where he is getting a lot of heat yet stay active in other games and start a new one while asking to be replaced in this one? What is your opinion of that if you were in our shoes? How would you treat the replacement and most importantly, why?

It's nothing personal against you man, you replaced into a bad situation. But if you're really gonna flip town, might as well help us out while you can. I'll even unvote to prevent any hammers before you've gotten a chance to say your peace.

Unvote

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Ha! That's one hell of a welcome!

Explain exactly why I'm scum, but this time use your own words instead of hiding behind someone else's reasoning.

I don't think anyone pointed it out (it's pretty obvious) but miller is the perfect scum claim because if a cop investigates him the cop would assume that he got a guilty result because you are a miller.

Are you not reading all the posts? This was already addressed. Spyre laughed at this and I already said exactly what you said here....except much earlier...I do not understand how you can make comments like this yet read all the posts...please explain how you missed it and thought you were the first one to bring it up.

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Let's wait to hammer till after we get everyone to post. I personally would like to hear something worthwhile from cruelty (super careful townie or not, his posts are lacking imo). Also would like to hear from D3x and get some opinions from AMG about what's happened since he went V/LA. DDD and Budja thoughts would also be appreciated before the hammer. Let's not get in too much a rush folks. Let's also remember that DeathSauce very well could flip Miller as he says so that is still a Mislynch and since I can't see how scum knew he was a miller, scum were pushing for his lynch long before DS replaced in. I don't see how the day ends with anything but a DS lynch, so no harm in getting the rest of the players to post some comments.

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Hey, contradiction...aight!

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Don't care to hear from d3x before the hammer RC? I'd also like to point out there are like 3 people who have stated they want to hammer. I think one of them is scum. After my unvote, I thought it was fairly clear that I would be voting him again once everyone in this game had a chance to post something. That leaves me with a question for the more experienced players.

Is it common for people to try and jump all over the hammer spot when the lynch is this obvious? I don't really care who hammers, it just struck me as odd that after I unvote to allow those who haven't posted in awhile to post, Zang jumps immediately on the wagon putting it back at L-1 and then we have 2 or 3 more people state something like 'I would hammer but' or 'I will hammer in 6 hours if' and so on. Is this normal behavior?

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DDD: Once d3x posts, I will return my vote to hammer DS (unless someone beats me to it which is fine).

Look, the reason I wanted everyone to post something before the hammer falls is freaking simple (surprised you don't get it). This is a TEXT based game. The more people post, the better the odds are that scum will slip something. Even if there are no slips in the past 2 pages, it's a recorded history of what people have posted. The more scum are forced to post, the better the chance they contradict themselves later. Elementary dear Danny.

I especially want d3x to post some thoughts since his posts are a little lacking imo. Much akin to cruelty. If you ISO, you won't find too many of his actual opinions on anyone besides the 2 major wagons of the day. Not a tell really, just limited opinions. Questions are great, but posting thoughts without having to be asked is better IMO.

d3x: You mentioned you didn't like Horror too much in one of your posts. How are you feeling now? Still think Zang is the better lynch and why or why not? Are Zang and Horror your only 2 suspects at this time? What are your thoughts surrounding others suspicions of AMG?

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We'll just agree to disagree I suppose. Once d3x posts it's hammer-time....with parachute pants and all.

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I'd really like to know how you know Scum are pushing his wagon. I'd also really like to know how you know they were on there before the Miller claim. FoS:Kthx

The part you quoted was under the assumption that DS will flip miller and not scum. I could have worded the second part better as I see grammatically where you are coming from. Should have read "...he was a miller,

I think

scum were

probably

pushing..." That was the meaning behind it when I wrote it.

Ouch. What have I ever done to you? In what way do you think my posts are 'lacking'?

You have done lots of things to me....like tried to touch my peppy, Steve. I feel they are lacking mainly due to me getting the feeling that they are very...carefully?...written. Similar to cruelty's earlier posts. It's just the feeling I get from them thus far. I'm basically having a hard time getting any read on you what-so-ever. May not be your problem though and all me. Wouldn't be the first time.

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I got sniped on the vote by cruelty. Any reason you felt the need to hammer and get your vote on DS even though I stated I would do it? Did you feel I wouldn't hammer and took it upon yourself to do it or did you just really really want to be on the wagon that lynched DS at the end of the day?

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No reason not to go with this. DDD's posts seem like scrambling scum so here's the quickest day I've ever partaken in.

Stop, hammer time!

Vote: DDD

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...or amg isn't a cop...or a ton of other scenarios.

I'm going to assume you have no further info for us AGM?

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Lol. Wow did you guys take that wrong. Well, Budja and d3x did anyway, Zang just likes to agree with stuff. What I meant was that there are other roles that can catch scum (ie. watcher, tracker, etc). d3x, you said it perfectly when you said AGM didn't claim anywhere. I could care less what role it is as long as it works. Note I also didn't ask or even hint that I cared. You also ignored the second half of the line you quoted where I said "...or a ton of other scenarios" such as the other roles I just mentioned. The light RoleFishing comment is a tad ridiculous, unless you took the meaning of my post as anything other than how I just explained it.

Zang: care to explain in your own words why my post would be considered "light RoleFishing"?

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My bad then. Did not look at time hacks.

Modified question then. Do you think d3x was justified in his light RoleFishing note on me before I clarified p308?

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Alright, maybe somebody should explain the exact definition of role fishing. If someone has a link to it on MS wiki, I'd appreciate it as I can't find it by looking up rolefishing, role fishing, fishing, or fishing of roles. Stupid me seems to think it's trying to find town PR's when they aren't known.

If this is close enough, both d3x and Porkens get to explain how I'm doing this because I simply don't understand. I think it's pretty obvious AMG somehow knew DDD was scum. He was right. There are multiple roles that can do this. I don't see how pointing this out and asking for more news (oh, i dunno, another scum hit) is scummy. Explain away boys.

Budja: I'm not sure what you asked me nor did I see it before my p315 (look at time hacks). Mentioning it was in reference to Porkens p306 where he said we had a claimed Cop. p308 was me stating that AMG didn't claim Cop and there could be other reasons how he got the info, not that his role is the reason he lived through the night. I actually believe he was correct in his statement in p307. Come to think of it...

d3x: interested in your answer to p323. I would think p306 would be rolefishing...as you know, it has a question directed toward an unclaimed PR and all.

Budja: Care to explain your vote?

Porkens: Are you saying I attacked d3x because I think the claim is ridiculous? I would think an attack would be accusations and FoS's and the like. I don't think I'm attacking you or d3x at all. reason below.

Also note, that those not on the lynch of DDD are my personal first suspects. (Budja, Fate, RedCoyote). Saying this out loud so to speak is prolly gonna land me some heat, but it makes logical sense and I'm wondering why it's not being done. Note this includes someone who currently has a vote on me and even though I feel d3x and Porkens are off base with this fishing thing, they aren't the most suspicious of the 3.

[Kthxbye]

I'm not ready to condemn, but with no new info in d2, I thought it would be a good place to start is all. Like cruelty said, once a guilty verdict is in there's no incentive for scum to argue. I think you could stretch that to there being no real reason to ask questions either.

I only mentioned Budja because his vote's on a townie, it wasn't (and still isn't) explained, and he wasn't on the lynch. The not being on the lynch is the least of the suspicions, but it's something to consider.

Budja: I don't see anything in p327 that conveys your reasoning for voting me. If you can't come up with why you are still voting me in your next post, you're getting my vote.
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cruelty: The more I think about it, the more I don't think AGM should give his innocent results unless we are trying to lynch that person. I say this because as soon as he does, it puts a target on their back. Assuming AGM doesn't get their role in w/e method he receives their alignment, he could have targeted the guy saving him. If he told us and put a target on that persons back, he inadvertently killed off the next person.

Keep the innocent results to yourself please AGM (assuming you get them).

[Kthxbye]

Wow, this wagon is almost as fast as DDD's. Hrm...I wonder if there's scum on it. (/sarcasm) I'm willing to stake my life on the fact that if there are 2 scum left, they are BOTH already on my wagon. I'm not usually this crazy, but it seems that me explaining meanings of posts is somehow scummy and over the top. I honestly do think the scum are on my wagon right now and I want it to stay that way.

Hammer vote: Kthxbye

Now that I'm dead and my flip will come, I'll explain a little bit more what's going through my head. When D2 started and AGM gave us the info, I like I'm sure everyone else, thought AGM to be a Cop. With that, I started thinking our best best would be to race with the scum. With no kill N2, we have a head start even. If AGM is a Cop, then we could no lynch during the day and investigate during the Night. This way we are only potentially losing one town per day instead of risking a mislynch during the day. Then I thought what if I suggest this and AGM ISN'T a Cop. This obviously wouldn't work if the set-up that we town have isn't a Cop Doc scenario. Hense the post that AGM might not be a Cop as Porkens assumed.

[Kthxbye]

/shrug, I'm gambling that scum are on my wagon right now. If not one then two of them. I just narrowed the suspects to 4 people. Should be an easy win for us.