After doing so, I implore you -Ythan 27 wrote:You should check my other games.
It's a matter of degree. Let's assume we're talking about a vanilla townie. If you don't post much, with not much in, then the town may very well waste a mislynch on you, but that will be it. Now, if you post a lot with not much in, it drags everyone down. People look at their watched topics, see four new pages, and lose motivation. People besides the spammer post less. It becomes harder to find the real content buried in the noise.Inquisitor JL 43 wrote:posting > lack of posting
Surely it is better for him to post loads of posts with not much in instead of a few posts with not much in. Even if what is added in each post is limited, surely it's better for our chances of finding the mafia if more is posted than less. Or am I missing something here?
The fact that it isYthan wrote:There is nothing to keep any player in this game from keeping up.
You're certainly welcome to voice speculation, though we'll never answer whether you're right or wrong (except for extreme values of wrong) and we won't answer questions that are just trying to narrow down our identity.Rayfrost wrote:Copper, would you be bothered if I tried to figure out who the heads of you are?
Would you care to indulge us and just expand on this idea a little bit? It seems as if you have more that you can add here, and I'm curious as to what it is.Thor665 wrote:She is totally scum and I have it on good authority she always cracks under pressure depending on her current meta of choice.
Are you being delibrately obtuse, Ythan? Perhaps you just log in too much? I don't think CheshireCat or Thor will throw a fit if you don't specifically respond to each of their posts within the hour, and I know we certainly won't. I think you understand what everyone is telling you, but you are being kind of stubborn about it. If you want to defend your post oversaturation, that's fine, but be upfront about it. This idea that, "I want to make a post where I agree with you... but I guess I have to post again!!Ythan wrote:I'm torn between agreeing and wanting to say so and not wanting to make another post.
", is silly. Ythan wrote:The avatar suits you perfectly.
I'm not saying we can't be friendly, but it's not that hard to embed little jokes in a larger post instead of making them their own worthless post.I want everyone to apply the follow standard for posting. When you've written something, before you hit submit, think: what is the purpose of this post? Does it contribute to the game overall?
If your response is, 'No, but it's funny," then don't post it.
I have had no problem with Inquisitor's posts. Did you read them for content at all, or is this purely a vote based on post count?SFG wrote:Inquisitor JL, henceforth referred to as IJL, wins (or perhaps loses) the Paucity of Posting award, with a grand total of 3 posts total thus far. Have a vote!vote: IJL
This is an RVS vote, and while it's nonrandom in the sense that I used it as an excuse to air a grievance in the hopes that it might change things for the better, it's not grounds that I'm interested in pursuing a lynch on.@Copper - your vote is on ythan, presumably based on the way he is posting and if what I am hearing about his meta is correct, is typical for him in any role. Are there any other reasons you have your vote on him? Is there anyone else you would consider voting at this point?
Sotty has a good point, and it seems like you're holding back for some reason. I don't think you're the most guilty of that, though. There's another player (possibly multiple, but I'm focusing on one) here that has been consistently holding back. I've been waiting for him to make a move; I feel as though he's been uncharacteristically in the background so far.Pom wrote:I don't, but when someone does something (like what Scrambles did) I like to check background- if the person who had done that was 30, I would have definitely placed a vote. I guess I have different standards, because it seems to me that it's more likely for a 13-year-old to go 'Huh? Omgus? Policy Lynch? Claim?' than someone who is 30.
Well isn't this just beautiful.RayFrost wrote:If I had to vote, it would be on bob the builder.
Seriously, I wouldn't be voting anybody.
If I actually HAD to vote, I'd just vote nobody special for the closest thing to a policy lynch that isn't a policy lynch.
@ copper...
reasoning is tech.
become tech soon for a grand prize!
RayFrost wrote:Because you didn't talk about me at all in the post where you voted me...
This.Thor wrote:At the very least I find his zapping of Copper for "not giving reasons" slightly odd since he's still harping on it after a post where Copper gave his reasons (well, reason) rather then responding to the accusation of not actually contributing to town.
It's hasty, ill informed, and contradictory, but it's also something I can (just) see as reasonable if you're coming from a viewpoint of "bandwagoning is scummy".@Copper - what are your thoughts on ScramblestheDeathDealer's recent reaction to Nobody Special?
This vote is, oddly enough, for the reason that you are not fond of it: that there is an agressive, 'I dare you to lynch me' attitude in his behavior. To be perfectly frank, if I wanted to hit a non-contributor all I'd really have to do is spin around and point randomly. The difference is that Ray's non-posting seems to be of a more confrontational sort as opposed to the at least seemingly geniune lurking from Zorblag or Saijin. Of all of the lurkers, Ray strikes me as the least earnest.Thor wrote:@The assembled Ray wagon - I am not fond of this wagon but will admit it is mostly for a bit of a stupid reason (frankly I feel like Ray's trying to be lynched). I would like each of you to comment on what you think Ray has done that paints him as scum (or as anti-town, but then at least admit you're voting for him for being anti-town as opposed to scummy).
People are getting all hot and bothered over the possibility of a TCC lynch, so its frustrating to have to continually attempt to bring them back down to reality. I know I've been guilty of similar slams against TCC earlier in the game, but I think I've reached a bit of a turning point. TCC isn't treating this game with much respect, that's for sure. If we didn't have as much of a replacement crisis in this game as we did, I would have scolded the Mod for not getting on top of the situation. Be that as it may, the TCC voters are remiss to point out what moves TCC from being anti-town to being potentially mafia.Copper wrote:The gameflow is increasingly seeming to suggest that TCC is a townie the scum are trying to burn for her lack of content. If we look among Locke, CSL, and kthnxbye, I think there will be at least one and very possibly two scum.
Perhaps you missed it, but I've been on your wagon since before Ythan was removed from the game. I don't know where you've gotten the idea that my only reason for wanting to lynch you is a discussion that took place outside of the thread. That's only part of the reason.RayFrost wrote:How does that make us the lynch choice?
Seriously, a discussion like that isn't exactly lynch-worthy.
The mods have dealt with it.
Why are you trying so hard to get a lynch on me/locke? Why are you using a non-game-related reason?
Are you really arguing that scum can't make accurate arguments against other players? Because I heartily disagree. As I said, I see the points against Kthx, but I'm not inclined to act upon them at the moment. I think it's more of a playstyle issue than one of calculated scum strategy. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm ready to say I'm sure Kthx is town or scum; I thought that much would be clear.RayFrost wrote:Also, you see my kthx case, but you still want to lynch me for a non-game-related reason.
How does this make sense?
I didn't address you or HH in that post. I clarified, to the best of my abilities, Copper's current position on TCC. I think our general consensus is that TCC is not the best lynch today (unless the lynch is intended to be purely political).Thor wrote:...did you actually just jump in and try to answer my question to Hawthorne before he could?
I think it would be okay to say that I'm worried Ythan/RayFrost may or may not have knowledge of each other's roles in this game. Like I was telling RayFrost though, this is all auxillary to the fact that both Ythan and RayFrost have been scummy. Copper has voted Ythan and RayFrost at separate times before Ythan was replaced. This can't be disputed, and, as a matter of fact, specific, clear posts indicating this can very easily be pointed to.Thor wrote:If you can clarify without breaking any rules I'd love to hear it.
Yes, but, to be honest, he hasn't exactly posted much verifying this meta. As a matter of fact, I happen to know CSL is actually quite active, so for him to coast on the TCC lynch as though it was an obvious choice (to answer your other concern) is quite alarming in contrast to your more level-headed, documented approach.Zorblag wrote:Have any of the heads of your hydra had experience playing with CSL? Troll no minds the vote you be casting but Troll be curious if it be cast with any knowledge of his meta.
I would say the issue is more with Inquisitor, CSL, and Kthx, as has been alluded to.Thor wrote: This commentary is far too wide catching and general for my taste. That's why I asked you who you found scummy for this. You ought to be willing to clarify who the tell has picked up on now that you have discussed it. Otherwise this looks a touch mudsling-ingy (proper Enlish is gold!).
I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.Kthx wrote:At this point, I'm not going to take my vote off TCC. Even though I questioned CSL above, I have been burnt too many times by being suspicious of someone, them replacing out, moving on to give the replacement a chance, only to find out I was right to begin with and the initial suspicion was correct. TCC is still my number one lynch for today, followed by LL for his jumping on my wagon then disappearing and letting others debate it. HH takes third place for scummiest till He/she decides to build a real case not based on magical strategy.
Agreed. What makes it doubly frustrating is how the last time I played with CSL, he had a very feisty and aggressive nature.Locke wrote:CSL is hard to comment on other than to say he's being intensely anti-town. Still no other justification for his TCC vote other than smilies and he's now apparently sure that TCC is scum trying to get out of a lynch. I would like CSL to give his views on pretty much everyone, but especially TCC and those on the Kthxbye wagon.
Did you want to add anything about the player you replaced?charter wrote:If I missed something terribly important, let me know.
While this is not my post, I feel safe in assuming that Inquisitor's name is a typo and that Locke's was intended.I would say the issue is more with Inquisitor, CSL, and Kthx, as has been alluded to.
Zorblag wrote: @Copper, that be a bit more of what Troll expected from you. What was it that made you think that Troll's initial vote for TheCheshireCat over ScramblesTheDeathDealer or Ythan was justified? Troll was pretty up in the air about which of them would be the best place to put the vote at the time. For Troll to change Troll's vote now wouldn't Troll need to think that someone else was a better choice? That be more the way that Troll operates when a vote be in play than thinking that Troll needs to continue to think that the current vote be explicitly better than any other. Barring some contribution from that spot that Troll likes or something from another spot Troll particularly dislikes Troll no sees why Troll should be moving Troll's vote unless it be to prevent a no lynch.
Copper wrote:If anyone still wants to lynch TCC, then I want to hear your intrepretation of events. Are there busing scum on her wagon - and if so, what slots? If there are no busing scum, then how did her wagon swell with such speed?
I - this being the same I that wrote the last two posts - have full awareness of CSL's meta. And I want you to consider what you're saying. Remember, our vote on CSL is not because of scummy things he has said in this thread or bad 'logic'. It's because he hasn't said a damn thing and his one action in thread was to put the L-2 vote on a wagon we believe to be a scum-driven attempt at a mislynch. Votes and stated logic are different things.Sotty wrote:I take it that this is one of the hydra heads who hasn't played with CSL, because if you had you would know CSL doesn't often follow the best logic, scum or town he ALWAYS looks scummy. so I am going to need more than one post to make a choice on if CSL is scummy or not. He is very hard to read because of this meta.
You do realize that day meant real life day and not game day, yes? Why must you assume someone is town to want to hear what they have to say a little longer? I've already given my reasons as to why I think TCC is town, but wanting to hear from someone at L-1 is something that's true regardless of what I think their alignment is and I'm not sure what else you're suggesting.Charter wrote: Scummy posts of Copper:
542, defends TCC big time after he gets put at L-1. Goes on about how it's scum fueled and how we need to let TCC post more and live a few more days. It assumes that TCC is town when I don't know how he could know that.
I still think that with the ferocity of that argument there's a good chance there's hidden information (which would mean scum in a daystart game at D1) in there. For now, I'm waiting for a bit more concrete information before pursuing that line of thought.572, tacks on the reason of "I think with Ythan and RayFrost's unfortunate and awkward game discussion outside of the thread, the town owes it to itself to see at least one of these players in the noose." as to why we should lynch Ray. That's not a reason why Ray is scum, but it is a reason to try and lynch him, something scum need to think up.
And you're saying you don't think putting someone to L-2 with a joke vote is scummy?590, votes CSL because CSL voted TCC. I took CSL's vote as a joke, because there's no way 'smilies=scum' is a passable reason to vote someone, but Copper is saying it's scummy.
As I said before:Your argument is 'the wagon grew too fast' which doesn't make TCC town. You can have a wagon on scum grow just as fast as a wagon on town. It's just a reason that sounds good, but isn't valid.
If anyone still wants to lynch TCC, then I want to hear your intrepretation of events. Are there busing scum on her wagon - and if so, what slots? If there are no busing scum, then how did her wagon swell with such speed?
I think it's normally iffy to look for scumpairs without any solid information. But Cheshire is a special case. I don't think it's possible that it was a wagon entirely pushed by town, because it would be quite the coincidence that Locke, CSL, and kthnx were all townies all rushing to push this wagon. As such, people who want to say that TCC is scum have a special obligation to either give names of potential busers or try to defend the idea of every wagoner being town. The difference this and most scumpair analysis is that, while we don't have the concrete information of a flip, we do have the information of the circumstances of TCC's wagon that I'm willing to treat as fairly strong.It do be somewhat interesting to Troll that you seem to think that looking for scum pairings this early be a dubious thing and also ask those who be voting for TheChesireCat to do exactly that.
I'm not complaining, merely resigned. I would respectfully disagree regarding the CSL wagon: I feel that I have done the best job I could to sell it but, seeing as no one save Pom has chosen to join me (as well as CSL skipping out on the thread), I now have no choice but to join the only wagon that's happening today. I do think this wagon feels somewhat rushed and I'm not particularly confident it will hit scum, but I don't think it's a contradiction of these ideas to say that I nonetheless prefer this lynch to a no-lynch.Thor wrote:Your last few posts included concern of the 'rush' attitude on recent wagons. Now you chide us for not getting stuff together in time (this one at least I agree with). I just find the two concepts in juxtaposition as they are to be unclear. The fact that you feel we have so little time to maneuver but sat on a single vote wagon and weren't here trying to sell it more makes me question why you're complaining now.
and this:Fate wrote: Poor Socrates. But I was in a game against him where he was scum. That's why I'm calling for pressure on Socrates until he makes good on his "posting promises." I am NOT letting that slot lurk for one more page especially with a mastermind scummer like Socrates in it.
make it sound more like a fatalistic policy lynch for information. If you're thinking he's scum, then I'm curious as to why you think he will help us while he's here.Fate wrote:TCC flip today tells us A LOT, as much as I hate losing Socrates as a good player, his slot has way too many connections. At least he can help us while he's here, and who knows, maybe he'll convince us he's found scum.
I have already given my reasoning on why I believe TCC (and thus, Socrates) to be a townie. As I've said multiple times to other people in this thread, if you want to contend that TCC has been bussed by her scumbuddies, I want to know who you think those bussing buddies are.Speaking of you, TCC's flip should tell us a lot about Copper. I'm reading now at TCC was at L-2, and then Copper goes and votes... CSL? Before the TCC replacement dismantled the wagon?
...
Tech prediction: Scum had no choice but to buss TCC because of how awful he was, then a replacement comes in and they get an excuse to shift it over to randomtarget #45: Pom.
The fact that it is a personal attack on myself aside, this stance simply doesn't make any sense. If you're a townie, there is a very strong chance the scum are attempting to frame you, and your reaction is that night-kill analysis itself is scummy - that if we all agreed to not use this source of information it would be impossible for night kills to frame people. While this is true, it's obviously sub-optimal - and, more to the point, you yourself go against this idea with your very next sentence.kthnxbye wrote:Vote: Copper
It's my experience that when scum make a NK action that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, the first person to bring it up is usually scum. Not to mention that I agree with the part that I would have thought scum would kill a more active player...unless, you know, the scum was a very active player.
I think the night kill is a useful source of information and I hardly think that a paragraph of thought is 'so much', especially when it's the new information that heralded the start of the day.Fate wrote:Now, Copper, I have a question for you. Why are you meta-gaming the NK so much? Do you think Kthx is really scum just because the person suspecting him died? Do you have any other reads?
Although the amount of replacements in this game has been unusual, the Mod giving the replacement the choice on who he wants to replace in, I would argue, is definitely not standard practice. Surely this choice implies that you looked over the game before making your selection, and there are all sorts of strings attached to this. Was CSL a "better" slot? Did you think you'd be able to wield more power? Were you prepared to argue that TCC was scum? Did you not want to play as scum/town?Fate wrote:Also, you didn't answer, why did you ask me why I choose the slot I did? What read did you think you would get by asking such a question?
Why not go the whole nine yards? Are you prepared to line up your lynches? Socrates scum automatically means Copper is the next lynch and vice versa?Fate wrote:Are you trying to shed doubt on the connections to TCC? Are you worried that once your buddy flips you'll look really bad?
Here it is again. In one breath, Socrates and I are both 100% scum partners, and in the next, you ask Socrates to provide enough content to give you an excuse not to vote him. Just claiming that Socrates' graceful presence is enough to justify moving your vote is bad, but when you go against it all to say he's your biggest scumread, then you're doublespeaking.Fate wrote:I'd be willing to NOT lynch you if you just provided some content.
It was the first post of the day, were you expecting a wall? How is a quick framing post scummy in a way that, say, Locke's first post today is not?charter wrote: Copper's first post today was ultrascummy. A load of NK WIFOM garbage coupled with a lot of nothing.
The problem is that you aren't looking for TCC's partner. Your 'tech prediction' was that the scum bussed TCC before hopping over to the Pom wagon. But neither Sotty nor myself ever voted for TCC. You say that the Pom wagon was a quick attempt for scumbuddies to save TCC, but TCC had requested replacement before a single vote was on Pomegrante, and there's virtually no danger of a slot being lynched when there's no one occupying it and it has not unclaimed.Fate wrote:Twisting my arguments, I see? So now seeing connections between playes is "lining up lynches" not "searching for the scum team." I think TCC's slot is scum, as RayFrost said before, what is wrong with looking for his partner?
It's certainly not a bad wagon, but I want to hear a bit from Ray before I weigh in on the matter.What do you think of another Ray Frost wagon and Sotty's advocation for it?
Kthnx, Zorblag, charter, and I were all more-or-less forced to go along with it, and it doesn't say anything about any of their alignments. Only Sotty, Thor, and Locke voted for Pomegranate without being under specific duress, and, as I allued to yesterday, the only thing that really puts me off about that is why the far worse offender CSL was completely ignored. It's something to consider if you flip scum, but barring that there isn't too much data to gather off of that wagon at the moment.Who do you think as most likely scum on Pomegranate's wagon?
Because she was the only possible lynch. I put no real thought into whether or not Pom was scum; I lynched her because otherwise we would have no-lynched.Why did you vote Pomegranate when she was the only person to vote CSL (me) with you? Did you think Pom+CSL was likely? Why?
WIFOM kills are certainty a possibility. But in this case, it's such a large reward (slowing the pace of the game thread even more) for such a small risk (seeing as several players are apparently allergic to the mere thought of looking at the night kill) that it's a bit hard to swallow.Locke wrote: Copper: I've both made and seen NKs made for the reason that it'll make the town go 'that doesn't make any sense' and consequently waste time wondering why. If you think it doesn't make any sense, it's probably not supposed to. Even if you work out that it was because of some perceived PR slip, what have you gained?
Once again, when a player's only contribution is a joke vote that puts the largest and fastest growing wagon to L-2, youCharter wrote: The major hesitation I have with Fate is how Copper keeps coming up with these absurd reasons for suspecting him. Yesterday it was CSL made a joke vote, so that made him scum.
The line of thought as to why he chose his slot is not at all a linchpin of the case. I've repeatedly stated why we should lynch CSL on D1, and while we've lost some of the meta and policy arguments with CSL's replacement I think Fate has more than made up for them with his actions.Today it's 'the mod let Fate choose which slot he replaced in to' he's questioned him in a couple posts. Copper mixes these things that have no bearing on Fate/CSL's alignment in with things that are scummy to inflate his case, which is scummy of Copper and the reason I'm suspicious of Copper and not Fate/CSL. If it was just once I'd write it off, but there's a pattern of it happening, which I can't ignore.
Locke, CSL, and kthnxbye all hopped on to Pom's wagon in quick succession. You obviously think you're town, but what about those two?How can a theory hold any more weight than a theory without actual facts? I'm not selling the "TCC WAS BUSSED" any harder than just a theory until after that slot flips. I'm not going to tunnel vision and ignore the fact it just as easily could have been a mislynch that lost traction and switched to Pom.
You're overestimating my position in this town. If I had that kind of pull, RayFrost may have been the first to be lynched, not Pom.Fate wrote:If you believed strongly enough that Pom was town you could've made a switch happen.
And why is that? How can you answer this without a bias? Of course you're going to say CSL was a great addition to the town, and TCC was significantly worse. What other choice do you have?Fate wrote:Maybe because CSL had offered just about as much to contribute if not more than TCC. I find it telling that you choose CSL over TCC out of the "Two most likely to be replaced" slots.
Neither of which were accepted by a majority of the town. Is your argument that I used reverse psychology by pushing CSL in order to get the town to focus on Pom? Again, you're overestimating my pull in this town. It was unfortunate that neither CSL nor RayFrost were adequately pressured, because RayFrost is still a bane to this town, and you're stuck trying to spin what was a somewhat hurried end to D1 into an elaborate scum stratagem.Fate wrote:Scum go off on a nowhere tangents often (See: your CSL vote) just to slow town down. Then when a deadline shows up... OH QUICK GOTTA LYNCH SOMEONE! The only wagon you tried to build yesterday was on a lurker, and before that Ray Frost for breaking meta.
Post 709? I agree with all the conclusions he reaches (with the exception of calling Kthx scum, as that's still be discussed between the players in this account), so I don't see anything wrong with it.Fate wrote:Oh yeah, speaking of which, what do you think of the new TCC, Copper? How's that switch from Kthx to me look?
Have you ever played with CSL, Locke?Locke wrote:CSL just didn't post; nor did Sajin before him, for that matter. In my book, Pome was by far the 'worse offender'.
When was the last time that you think TCC logged into the website? Additionally, and stop me if you've already answered this, what do you think her original intentions were in voting you, if you had to guess?Zorblag wrote:Troll's preference for TheCheshireCat was in part a reluctance to change votes when there no be a good reason to
Wagons dismantle when there's little enough time that there might not be a replacement. After all, TCC wasn't replaced until night one. If you had been here day one, would you seriously want to lynch TCC's slot while it was empty and could be a PR?Fate wrote:There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.
Did you not read the very next paragraph of that post?Also, you don't need to vote your scumpartner to buss them. Sometimes just distancing is a stronger tell, with posts like these:That being said, Cheshsire is a very close second. After her huffy 'I AM hunting scum thank you very much' posts it's worrying that she couldn't find anything better than a one-line explanation lurkervote (particularly when, as Thor points out, there are worse offenders among us.)
TCC was voted very soon after this was posted. And then a few posts later you say:
WHOA THERE. Now TCC is just disinterested and not scummy?I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.
Copper wrote: I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.
No. That was referring to the fact that "Copper" is a hydra, with multiple people posting in the game thread. And yet, despite the fact there are multiple people trying to come to a consensus, our views still have a coherence that your posts have been lacking. Now, it's not scummy in and of itself to have clashing internal views - it can happen easily enough when you go off of a standard book of 'scumtells' without looking at context. I'm voting you moreso because I simply can't see you as a townie making honest points, particularly with the vehemence you've been pursuing them. Socrates has already hit on quite a few reasons why I think this, particularly this one:Using advanced vocabulary doesn't make your points any more valid. Who is the collective of minds again? Sotty, you, oh and Socrates of course.
Socrates wrote: Reason the forth, there are plenty other players in this game who are clearly under-contributing that he is patently ignoring. What about troll? I hear he is a good player (I've been called "the Zorblag of the scum team" as some kind of compliment before) and he has 1 post today. so how does Fate deal with him? He will be easier to read with vote counts and lynches? Pah! I've never seen a more shameless equivocation. What about Lockelamora who is doing a whole lot of nothing? Does he get a free pass because he has never hoodwinked you in the past? What about Kthxbye who made a really scummy vote and then promptly went V/LA?
Part of it is that while Pom's contributions weren't exactly stellar, we didn't find them quite as disagreeable as the rest of the town, particularly with the incredibly low bar that has been set. There's also the fact that CSL simply didn't strike us as the type to completely ignore the thread, and that the replacement turnover of that slot (particularly Saijin's agreement to come in and subsequent failure to contribute) smells like scum.Locke wrote:Copper: I really don't know why you keep insisting CSL was a better lynch than Pome. Pome was clearly posting yet providing very little in the way of content and I think her response to Ray's attack showed that she knew she'd taken his meta completely out of context but refused to admit it. That's just plain anti-town. There was very little pro-town about her actions. CSL just didn't post; nor did Sajin before him, for that matter. In my book, Pome was by far the 'worse offender'.
What do you mean, shift blame on to Locke? I was pointing out that yes, there wasn't much content in my first post, because it was a quick post with my initial thoughts, but how is this scummy compared to other quick posts with initial thoughts? I simply used Locke as my example.charter wrote: This is another extremely scummy post. First, you strawman my accusation by asking why you would be expected to post a wall, which isn't why I said your post was scummy. I didn't mention length at all. Your first post was scummy, it's perfectly possible to make a good first post of the day. Second, you're trying to shift blame on to Locke now, as well. Locke's post was different, he was asking you and Fate questions as well.
Are you seriously accusing Copper of active lurking? You have to remember that when 'posting fluff' is forwarded as a scumtell, it's generally because that slot is attempting to get away without posting anything else. That's not at all the case here . The day started, and there was a night kill I didn't understand, so I posted my first impressions of it. I'm not asking that you treat this as a solid contribution, but you can't accuse a single post of active lurking - that's something you apply to the net contribution of a slot, and looking at only half of Copper's posts would still make an active lurking charge senseless.You accuse me on being hell-bent on ignoring the possibility of gleaning information from the night kill. Where have I said we should ignore the NK? I said your post was a load of garbage because you throw out like three different scenarios but that's it. It's just active lurking. If anyone can actually get something from the NK, that's great, but you're not trying to do that, you're just posting fluff.
I don't understand the 'two buddies that can hammer' sentiment. What's so hard to believe about CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast-growing wagon and hoping townies take it to L-1 and hammer? Why would only his buddies be able to vote for TCC after him?No, how that does that benefit him as scum more than town? I don't see much benefit regardless of alignment. The only way you could say it helps him if he's scum is if TCC is town and he has two buddies that can hammer. Here you are assuming TCC is town, when there's no good reason to. Now that I think about it, this reeks of you knowing TCC would be a mislynch.
I wasn't 'shifting blame' on to Locke. I was saying that I think it's a blameless thing to open D2 with a light post, and used Locke as an example.I think his first post was scummy today, then when I call him on it, he strawmans and tries to shift blame on to Locke.
As I have been doing for quite some time now, yes.He's using the assumption of TCC as town to suspect Fate.
This is noteworthy because I think the Socrates wagon is the pinnacle of 'accusations with no bearing on alignment', as you can see in the part of this post directed at Zorblag. I'd appreciate it if you could point how my case on Fate is alignment-independent in a way that the 'case' on Socrates is not.His arguments are full of accusations with no bearing on alignment. He's just faking his scumhunting.
Ythan didn't really have a wagon of any significance. For one brief point directly prior to his replacement, he reached L-3. This was with the addition of Sotty7 and Ray on his wagon. Ray voted first for what seems to be mostly a delayed policy attack, and Sotty's stated reasons wereThor wrote:Copper - I can't recall if you've addressed this before; but Socrates has presented a bit of commentary I agree with (Ythan's wagon was pushed by scum hoping to easy mislynch the annoying player). I know you've expressed thoughts about this as regards TCC, do you have the same read on Ythan's wagon? Why/why not?
In short, it's a null tell in terms of Ythan/Locke/Michel's alignment. Very natural reasons for townies to vote, very easy reasons for scum to fake.Sotty7 wrote:Part deadline vote, part Ythan isn't actually scum hunting or trying to convince anyone of anything despite being asked to by several different players. Scummy.
How could we have gotten this far and you don't already know the answer to this? Unless, do you mean both your and Socrates' play as a replacement of the slot?Fate wrote:What exactly makes my play different from Socrates? The only reason you seem to be voting me over Socrates is the "assumption" that Socrates is town for the sake of your arguments. You even boldly state this to be true.
Perhaps you don't think the wagon on TCC was anything that needed to be looked at, but I happened to think so. I believe in artifical votes and concocted positions. I happened to dislike very much the way players like Kthx and CSL opportunistically jumped onto the wagon, and I think these are much more damning moves than any "case" I've heard against TCC (which amounted to, "she's a newbie, so let's lynch her" or "we need a flip, so let's lynch her").Fate wrote:You come in, say "well I'll assume TCC is town therefore Fate is scum."
Then what of Ythan's slot?charter wrote:Ok, I shouldn't have said active lurking, I just meant it was a fluff post.
He just happens to joke vote the highest vote getter at the time?charter wrote:It's not hard to believe CSL as scum putting a vote on a fast growing wagon. It's just as not hard to believe CSL as town doing the same thing. It was a joke vote, so a quickhammer like you describe seems inconceivable.
I thought this was unanimously thought of as a null tell, but I'll humor it. I've seen just as many townie replace out as I have scum, and I'd contend that TCC was flakycharter wrote:Also TCC replacing out when he was under pressure.
That's not accurate in the slightest. Pom's wagon was brought about as a compromise lynch towards the very end of the day. How is that even close to resembling the case against Fate?charter wrote:I'm afraid Fate is just Pom 2.0.
I had said it before in a previous post, which you may remember Thor, that it may be worth lynching one of them in order to see if there was anything to that. I got the impression from the awkward way Ythan/Ray talked to each other in another game that they may or may not be aware of each other's alignments in this game (which would of course likely mean that they are both scum). Because of that, neither of these players I would be firmly opposed to lynching at this point.Thor wrote:@Copper - where are you on the Ray/Ythan connection (now Michel/Saint Kerrigan)?
I think I likewise feel comfortable with you, Sotty. I wanted to point out here though that I do not necessarily think all the players voting me are bad news, charter especially I feel has town points going for him, despite being misguided in his vote and suspicions.Sotty wrote:I am pretty sure Copper is town at this point. This wagon is bad. I'd like a detailed case presented on why Copper is scum, because I don't see a lot of spin. Break it down blow by blow for me.
This isn't even a point. Pointing out the possibility of a slot being a PR is vastly different then setting up a slot to be a PR. I especially don't understand "so that's he lurked terribly", as though being a PR explains lurking. To the best of my knowledge, neither I nor anyone else have offered the idea that being a PR both causes and is a explanation for lurking. You're making up senseless points and then calling us scummy for saying them.Fate wrote:I don't like how you're subtly setting up TCC's slot to be a PR. Seems like you're setting up to believe his claim with a "Oh, so that's why he lurked terribly, yeah I buy the claim" later on.
Lynches are the responsibility of the players, not the mod. We already had one extension day one, it was incredibly unlikely we would have gotten another. This petulant clinging to a favorite lynch when the target doesn't currently exist and deadline is approaching is terrible play, though I'll concede it's not necessarily scummy.I wouldn't have lynched an empty slot though, like I said, I would have left my vote on until a replacement came in (and begged the mod for an extension due to replacements).
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes it very hard to see your 'case' as an honest attempt at scumhunting. Let's remember what that was a reply to:Fate wrote: You mean:Where you distance yourself from calling TCC a disinterested townie by saying you did suspect him at one point or another? Yeah, it was noted.Copper wrote: I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.
So it went something like this:Fate wrote: There's no danger? Why would a wagon dismantle just because someone replaced out? Usually people leave the wagon on until the replacee can come in and speak for themselves (reference: a D1 of another mini I'm in)? It is because the Pom wagon was created.
Also, you don't need to vote your scumpartner to buss them. Sometimes just distancing is a stronger tell, with posts like these:TCC was voted very soon after this was posted. And then a few posts later you say:Copper wrote: That being said, Cheshsire is a very close second. After her huffy 'I AM hunting scum thank you very much' posts it's worrying that she couldn't find anything better than a one-line explanation lurkervote (particularly when, as Thor points out, there are worse offenders among us.)
WHOA THERE. Now TCC is just disinterested and not scummy?Copper wrote: I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.
Noncommittal.SK wrote:Haven't had time to do any catching up, except on Charter, and my conclusion on the analysis of Charter's slot is that Inquisitor JL didn't do anything to set off my scumdar, and Charter has done some things I agree with, some things I disagree with, and nothing that overall makes me feel particularly inclined to lynch him.
[...]
I'll continue to withhold voting until I have a firmer stance on the game.
[...]
I still don't feel like I have a good handle on the game.
This game is hellish in how much of a toll it seems to be taking on my concentration and attention. Sotty's claim kickstarts it a bit, since players seemed to be either entrenched in their positions or not active enough to change their point of view. The revolving door of replacements doesn't help, although it finally appears things are stable (cross your fingers on charter and Socrates though).Michel 846 wrote:I'm very annoyed with seeing Sotty claim, though I do find it believable.
I still don't think this is the best option, not without any scum dead or any protective roles outted.Michel wrote:With Sotty having claimed, (and Ktx having claimed before) massclaim suddenly became much better IMO. Keeping powerroles hidden isn't really a concern with an info role out in the open. Unless there are serious objections, I'm going to claim next.
In honesty, I don't think this post is bad. I think the conclusions you've drawn match exactly with your progression through the game, and, although I don't necessarily agree with these conclusions, I can see why you've reachde them. Claim or no, Kthx is not a bad lynch for us today. If Kthx is the deadline lynch, it will get Copper's support.Michel wrote:I also have reasons to be suspicious of Socrates because of the behaviour of TCC, of Thor for his vital role in the Pom lynch and of SaintKerrigan because of Ray's behaviour towards the deadline.
I have not discussed this with all the heads, but given our time constraints, I say that we still vote nay. The risk of throwing a Doctor under the bus could be this town's undoing. I see more risk for little reward. It would be nice to lock scum in, but it would be just as nice, I think, for Sotty to get another report.Thor wrote:Voting Aye (3): Pie, Michel, Thor
Voting Nay:
Be that as it may, I can't hold any position to you. Sure, you attack Michel here a bit, which I think is good, but why not vote him? I mean, is this a political thing? Do you not like casting votes unless you think they can be successful lynches? I just don't understand your reluctance to make a stand.SK wrote:I'm not using my vote yet because I don't have enough of a feel for this game to take a stance strong enough to want to vote someone. In other words, I haven't comprehended the game enough to feel comfortable voting.
Here's a question for you: if I had made exactly the same posts as I have up to now, but included at least one vote, would you still feel inclined to vote me?
It's not only lurking. How long do we let SK go on not taking a position? I'm not talking, "Sotty seems scum". I'm talking, "Here is my vote; here is why it is the best vote".Pie wrote:A SaintKerrigan lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but for reasons other than lurkitude. Besides, site meta is such that the suspicion incurred by active lurking far outweighs the benefits of "hiding" from the town.
Do you think the scum don't have any power? What's to stop them from then just making sure that whatever power roles town-sided are taken out?Thor wrote:The scum who claim as vanilla will be in the easy suspect pool of the vanilla townies and won't be able to falseclaim as a power role later in endgame situations.
I don't think this would be a problem, and I'm much more willing to do this. Given one kill last night though, I'm not entirely sure how beneficial it would be. Moreover, the fact that there even is a Gunsmith should give us all doubts at to whether all scum killing roles solely have guns in their possession.Michel wrote:If massclaiming is not an option, how does everyone feel about claiming "gun" or "no gun"? That should allow most protective roles to remain hidden, while also allowing Sotty to find scum by detecting liars.
This is such a cop out. If you think someone is scummy, then you make a statement. I appreciate you wanting to look through the entire game for specific details, but that doesn't excuse you from voting. If you had voted him, hypothetically, and went back and found a RayFrost post that made you reconsider your position, then why not just tell us that you've changed your mind after closer examination of Michel's ISO? I mean, I just don't get it. As if it's a cherry on the top, you tell me, again, that you don't have strong enough reasons to vote. I guess you just don't have strong enough reasons to vote anyone.SK wrote:My reluctance stems from not wanting to make a misinformed vote. Sure, I could've voted Michel if I really wanted to, but not only had I not completely read up on his player slot yet, but the questions I did pose to him weren't nearly strong enough reasons to vote him.
Why wouldn't you be? I mean, someone has to be scum in this game. Pie's will say it isn't him. He's may take the position to say that Sotty and I aren't either. The playing field is getting awfully slim at that point. I don't think he should just write you off his suspect list for the heck of it.SK wrote:So why am I even on your suspect list, much less near the top?
That's a good point. I can buy that.Michel wrote:It's using flavour argumentation in a normal game, but given that we are in a gun factory, I believe it's far more likely if the scum actually have guns then knives or poison, for example. And not everyone who owns a gun uses it to kill every night. I think you'll see a number of "gun" claims.
Bingo. SK is using it as a crutch at this point. He's withholding his vote until he reads over the game to his satisfaction, yet he's able to construct walls in the interim arguing against massclaiming and Pie's suspicions.Fate wrote:Your play has been scummy thus far. I always make it a point when I replace in to read the whole game, make posts as I catch up, or one huge one based off the whole game. Why have you been putting hits off?
RayFrost had a gun and he didn't use it? Hm.SK wrote:I have a gun.
Thor wrote:I support the mass claim motion.
SK wrote:Thor, care to explain what you were doing last night?
Thor wrote:I will answer with - if you indeed tracked me, you wouldn't be worried by the result.
I have admittedly been fairly comfortable with Thor for mostly this entire game, but I must admit SK's tactic of trying to lure Thor into a trap with his roleblocked night action has caught me by surprise. I think SK deserves town points for this, and Thor deserves scum points for his overly broad, "you wouldn't be worried by the result", which indicates to me that he's trying to feel out SK. I think a town Thor may have been more quick to throw cold water on SK's accusation, as opposed to leaving the question open so that he may still have an exit strategy whether or not SK saw him doing something. I've read over Thor's response multiple times, and I keep playing out different scenarios in my head. If Thor truly visited no one, which is the only logical answer to the response "wouldn't be worried by the result" that I can think of, why would he entertain SK? Additionally, why would he make an opening post that didn't mention SK if Thor believes that,SK wrote:Why I decided to track you:
- I got a sense of excessive neutrality reading your posts, which I think is a very strong indication of a scum mentality.
- You had Fate as a top suspect for a good part of Day 2, yet you refrain from voting him until one hour before deadline, and it was a hammer vote at that.
- By contrast, you voted me for "not producing enough content," and even when I did start to produce content, you kept your vote on me until, again, one hour before the deadline, after it became apparent that I wasn't going to be the lynch.
Since my top suspect, Pie, has a fair share of votes on him, I think we'll go with aVote: Thor.
I'm not nearly as comfortable with Thor at this point.Thor wrote: I actually don't trust you all that much and am still not sure if I buy your claim.
1) I'll admit I'm a little more inclined to believe SK's claim than probably you are, which could lead to a bias against you. The fact of the matter is, I feel like your feeling out of SK was unreasonably neutral. If you were townie, visited no one, and were resistant toward SK, then why not make your suspicions forthright? What was the purpose of toying with the idea that you visited someone? I mean, I get you could be trying to catch a scum SK saying something that's false (e.g. You visiting Sotty), but that seems like it would've been a pretty bold move for a fake Tracker to make. I don't think it's MYLO, after all.Thor wrote:1. Yes, I was trying to feel out SK because I had already stated in that post that I could see town or scum energy from the feeling out SK was attempting. Why was it town for SK to feel me out and scum for me to feel SK out?
2. Why would I need an exit strategy "whether or not SK saw [me] doing something"? If I was scum, I must have known SK was roleblocked unless the scumteam isn't very communicative.
This is pretty close to AtE for me. I appreciate you wanting to explain yourself and apologize if you don't think you're being clear enough, but I don't want you, as townie, to back off what you think is right either. If I don't think you have a backbone, then that's usually a big scumtell in my eyes.Thor wrote:I have already admitted to being slow around the SK situation. It is clear for many of the other players here it was a much larger 'towntell' then it was for me, and to that I can only say I'm sorry that I apparently am still working on my scumdar. It wasn't as clear to me and thus I was slower to react and was still trying to get everyone to comment on the situation before I felt comfortable enough to move on anything.
I'm sorry; I forgot that you were replacing Kthx when I said that. Still, I don't think just because the person your replaced claimed has any bearing on your choice whether or not the rest of the town should.Pie wrote:@Copper: I (or rather, my predecessor) has already claimed Vanilla Townie. It turns out me pushing for massclaim isn't that unusual.
Agreed. Pie tying himself to Thor makes me feel as though we're doing something right. Thor is already effectively tying himself to Pie by means of suspecting SK's claim as much as he has. This makes me think one of them is likely to be scum and one of them is probably town.SK wrote:@ Pie: You are not in a position where you can say things like "Thor wagon sucks" and expect us to be satisfied.Whydoes the Thor wagon suck?
You've already claimed, so what other reports do you have? Who did RayFrost track N1?SK wrote:How's this?
Did you miss the part where he said he was roleblocked? I would expect my Tracker to act confident in the face of this, and not say, "I was blocked, oh well, good luck guys". Thor's reaction, on the other hand, seems much more calculated. He seemed worried, as though maybe the block didn't go through as planned, and made a very flimsy statement. This way, no matter what SK ended up saying, Thor would've had room to maneuver.Pie wrote:As town, this is horribly stupid - he basically tried to trick Thor into claiming with no concrete info against him. As scum, possible motives include rolefishing and a way of saying "Hey guys, I got blocked last night and yet there was a nightkill! Clearly I'm town!"
Neither of those are great motives, but I honestly cannot think of a single explanation for townSK's actions aside from "stupidity."
I agree with this 100%. Pie's proposal seems extremely counter-productive. Additionally, it seemed to me more like he was throwing it out there hoping that someone else will get the ball rolling rather than truly laying out a case for it. He knew it was a bad strategy, I think, but he still put it out there to see if he could get a bite.SK wrote:First off, mafia has at least one roleblocker. Second, how the hell is a no-lynch a good idea at this point in time? All it does is give scum a free kill on Michel (because scum obviously aren't going to kill me as long as I have mislynch potential).
The fact that you are still entertaining the possibility of claiming a power role really does shock me.Thor wrote:Presuming I'm vanilla - by claiming vanilla with no need to claim vanilla I help scum power role hunt.
I'll admit this is a pretty good question.Pie wrote:@SK - you list Pie as your top suspect - why didn't you track him?
Are you serious?Pie wrote:Alternate explanation: town has a roleblocker who didn't trust you.
So a pie scumflip will 95% confirm Michel as town.The interactions between Ythan (now Locke), Rayfrost, and Nobody Special (now kthnxbye) need more discussion within the hydra before we can incorporate them in our vote.I think it's a fairly uncontroversial position that Ythan and Nobody Special/kthnkxbye cannot be scumbuddies, as planning a move like that would have been incredibly unethical.The pairing of Rayfrost and Ythan is more interesting. I'll leave the vote on Ray for now while we wait for the thread to start up again but after the outburst between him and Ythan I'm not as sure as I was about Rayfrost being scum.