Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[jbernier93]

vote:chauchaudotcom

for having the weirdest avatar I've seen in my lifetime

[jbernier93]

Well, this game of mafia is starting to sound more like a thread in "Mafia Discussion!"

[jbernier93]

Yes, well. There's at least discussion going on.

Also, for those who are interested- http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... llen_angel

It needs updating, but meh.

And just for the sake of discussion or something, if I appear to be playing well (well, scumhunting properly, anyway), that probably means I'm scum.

Just saying yo.

Incidentally I HATE META AND THINK IT IS A WASTE OF TIME. SERIOUSLY JUST TAKE THE GAME AS IT IS.

lol

Oh and

unvote

.

[jbernier93]

Incidentally I HATE META AND THINK IT IS A WASTE OF TIME. SERIOUSLY JUST TAKE THE GAME AS IT IS.

Oh, but it isn't. Meta (at least with players that have played multiple roles) can show how people behave as town, as scum, and occasionally as third party players (serial killers and such). Meta is a useful tool and should be taken advantage of, seeing as we're at D1 and have nothing else to go on.

Yes, but it makes the game soooooooo much less fun.

Do you think any scum are on said wagon? And yes, it is quite ridiculous to want a player lynched so soon. Also, since I feel the gambit is worthwhile,

Vote Deer

. Now we wait.

Shouldn't you like, not talk about the gambit if you're trying to pull it off? cause now scum are on their toes.

[jbernier93]

A) Because finding meta = hours of work. This is supposed to be a game. Work != fun.
B) You're an odd one.

[jbernier93]

My thoughts are that we're on page three and not much has happened other than discussions on general aspects of mafia and fallen angel trying to pull off a mystery gambit. There's not much to think about all this yet.

[jbernier93]

Well, at any rate, I'm glad we've moved out of the RVS. (Is it just me, or do RVSs seem to

always

end when someone puts one too many votes on a bandwagon?)

Cause that's the whole point of the RVS?

so lets make it interesting....

vote: Deer

... Not sure if this is a newbscum or newbtown vote but it reeks of newbiness...

[jbernier93]

i voted Deer for the same reason fallen angel did...

vote:rzhang86

[jbernier93]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

[jbernier93]

broadly speaking yes townies shouldnt lie, but dont you think it is naive to say that there is never a circumstance in which it can be helpful to town if a townie lies?

There are a handful of cases in which townies should lie. One of those cases might be when an extremely good player (like, one better 90% of the mafiascum population) who has the trust of a town has a theory they would like to test. However, even then, fakeclaiming roles as town is very very very very dangerous, and usually results in more hurt than help.

other people please post, you look bad lurking during a time like this

Not everybody has as much time to post as everybody else, don't accuse people of lurking when they can't post as much as you.

My basic problem with you rz is that you claim to be "helping fallen's gambit" when in fact you were only fulfilling the purpose of the gambit...

Also QFT:

P.S. Can you please make an effort to capitalize? I can't believe I'm the only one getting a headache trying to read your posts.

[jbernier93]

Third, please don't assume that when I place a vote for someone it means that I would like that person to be lynched. If my vote was the hammer then yes that would be a fair assumption, but otherwise it really is not a valid assumption. Votes have many uses, of which achieving lynch is only one. This includes many pro-town uses. Hammering someone without giving a good reason may be scummy in general, I'll give you that. But voting someone to L-1 without giving a reason is not necessarily scummy, and in fact can have powerful pro-town uses.

I'm sorry, but that's not really how its supposed to be used. Votes are supposed to
A) Put pressure on a lurker/scummy player
B) Indicate who you find to be an appropriate target for a lynch
and it's mostly B, really. A hammer is the same as any other vote, they are all counted as one vote by the mod.

[jbernier93]

unvote, vote:SSSS

He basically posted absolutely nothing of any consequence, wagoned rz to L-1, then backed off after being questioned for it... Doesn't mean I think RZ is town but SSSS's actions are more vote worthy IMO.

[jbernier93]

Your vote would've only put him at L-2.

[jbernier93]

JB - Why do you think rz is scummy? You quoted a line he wrote when you voted but never explained.

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory? Basically it was a very weak explanation regarding his vote, because it seems to directly contradict the whole purpose of fallen's gambit. Also I get a bit of a gut feeling scum feeling from him.

[jbernier93]

I've got a campout this weekend (leaving in like 20 minutes) and I'll be quite busy monday and tuesday, so I'll see what I can post, but I may or may not have any decent content over the next few days.

[jbernier93]

Back.

Still happy with my vote, but

fos: water foul

for some pretty obvious active lurking and then focusing on denying it....

[jbernier93]

Also,

mod

: Pretty sure Nobody Special needs a prod.

This got me thinking, I know I've seen NS active on this site lately... check, and sure enough, he's posted much more recently in other places...

unvote, vote:Nobody Special

for pressure/horrible lurking, but will probably go back to SSSSSSSSSS at some point.

[jbernier93]

JB - how do you feel about Smash's accusations against you?

I feel like it's clearly an OMGUS with very bad attempts at rationalizing it... I didn't bother to respond to it because it didn't seem like a case worth responding too.

[jbernier93]

It's hard to tell the lurkers from the nonlurkers, because some people are legit lurking while others don't want to post without having anything to respond to, and thus are unintentionally lurking as a result of lurkers.

[jbernier93]

Ok, feel free to wagon me, at least it will get me more into the game.

Just watch out for any premature lynches.

As for why jb would be worrying about pressure, I didn't think that one through at all, so I waited to answer, and then eventually forgot about it. I just thought that I wanted to see him under pressure, but unfortunately it does not look like that will happen soon.

As for the fact about my lurking, I don't know, I wasn't actively lurking, I truly had nothing to say, and so contributed to my not posting here. The only thing I have right now are a few town tells, and I'd rather not share them for the sake of hopefully not telling scum who would be the best nightkill. So, I guess just to hear more from him,

Vote; water_foul

(Emphasis added)
seriously? That's practically a scumclaim.

unvote, vote: Smashbro

Honestly, you are so scummy that, once you die, if you flip town, I will eat a sock.

[jbernier93]

Honestly, you are so scummy that, once you die, if you flip town, I will eat a sock.

Then why had you not voted him earlier, JB? I find it hard to believe that just him saying "feel free to wagon on me" gets you to say that above quote.

I had voted him earlier. I changed my vote to Nobody special briefly. Pay attention please.

[jbernier93]

Ok, feel free to wagon me, at least it will get me more into the game.

Just watch out for any premature lynches.

As for why jb would be worrying about pressure, I didn't think that one through at all, so I waited to answer, and then eventually forgot about it. I just thought that I wanted to see him under pressure, but unfortunately it does not look like that will happen soon.

As for the fact about my lurking, I don't know, I wasn't actively lurking, I truly had nothing to say, and so contributed to my not posting here. The only thing I have right now are a few town tells, and I'd rather not share them for the sake of hopefully not telling scum who would be the best nightkill. So, I guess just to hear more from him,

Vote; water_foul

(Emphasis added)
seriously? That's practically a scumclaim.

unvote, vote: Smashbro

Honestly, you are so scummy that, once you die, if you flip town, I will eat a sock.

What do you mean it is a scum claim? I'm saying that bandwagoning will both get me more into the game, and it will give more information to talk about. Which it looks like it has.

You basically said that having a wagon against you will make you post more. that is textbook badscum behavior.

Also, deer brings up an interesting point, what are the exact reasons for my play being scummy? Is it just this quote, saying that bandwagoning would help, the makes me scummy?

Post #11 where I first voted you, as well as statements made by other players.

jbernier93 is jumping from vote to vote, once a decent case is presented on someone who has seemed suspicious. Also, what happened to your FoS on waterfowl from 204? It magically disappears?

It's called voting for the person I think is most deserving of my vote. I'm sorry, would you like me to just tunnel someone from page one to the endgame? Cause I can do that but I doubt the rest of the players would like it.

And what do you mean what happened to my fos on water foul? I'd rather pursue the scummiest person in the game (i.e. you) than someone less scummy.

Also, your posts tend to offer little to no explanations for votes, quoted below:
<snip>
You even set yourself up to say, "don't blame me for coming out of nowhere to vote smashbro next time I do"

When I vote, I give the exact reasons for my vote. Whatever makes me vote is in the vote post. And I didn't come out of nowhere to vote you, I moved my vote back to you after I noticed that you were being really scummy again.

*I don't find him my prime suspect, but I've noted his relatively low content posting and opportunistic vote jumping all over the place. Might be his playstyle, but it strikes me as odd.

I say what I need to say.

[jbernier93]

^I wish this were facebook so I could like that post.

But still want to lynch Scumbro of the ScumScumScum.

[jbernier93]

Good stuff. After reading this and a reread of the game I could get behind a SSSS lynch, but Nobody Special is just too quiet. He's posting just enough to avoid a prod and most of it has no content. Surely there's something to post about now that the replacements are in?

To be fair, he's being really quiet in all his games as of late.

[jbernier93]

To be fair, he's being really quiet in all his games as of late.

As of late meaning what, exactly? I mean, he posted in this game just yesterday, yet added nothing relevant.

In all games I'm in with him, his recent posts have been infrequent / relatively low content.

[jbernier93]

In all games I'm in with him, his recent posts have been infrequent / relatively low content.

So your argument is that his inactivity doesn't count as proof of his alignment? Fair enough. I still think it's anti-town, and if he can't put in any content at all then he's better off replacing out.

Yeah, just something to note.


Also yay SSSS is almost dead.

[jbernier93]

Post 303 makes me wish I wasn't voting SSSS.


So I could hammer him.

He continues making wishy-washy statements and trying to deflect attention onto another player for non scummy things. Also he switches from his OMGUS vote on me to vote for the only other wagon with any steam today, DF13. Who recently voted SSSS.

[jbernier93]

Anyone know any good methods for cooking a sock?

Grilled with onions and BBQ

So yeah, I'm between DF and Deer at this point, Deer for a general "follower" tone and dropping the hammer pretty much out of nowhere from his prior suspicions, and DF mostly for RZ's actions.

[jbernier93]

JB - Thoughts on Sucrose?

She doesn't seem particularly scummy, nor particularly pro-town. She has a few gaps in logic but they seem to be more from a town perspective.

Now, as for my suspicions...
Dragonfly13 replacing rzhang86 - rz dropped a few scumtells during his time in the game, including his replacing out of the game. But he definitely wasn't the scummiest player yesterday.
DF calls himself "very town" in his first post, which I find very odd and vaguely scummy.
In his next post he attempts to accuse Spyrex of word-twisting, which is odd, since I would think most townies would understand that players may not interpret things the exact way one means them to be.
This quote I find odd:

Large wagons are easy for scum to manipulate, so it seems rather awkward when scummy players have large wagons. This is due to a fear of the "scummy" player being town-aligned, because scum would naturally hold off lynching scum-mates until it appears to be too late. So why has SSSS been voted so heavily?

My argument is that the other major wagon (rz/me) is more likely to have been manipulated by scum.

I don't like this, because he's basically saying "Because I'm not scum, the other wagon must be on scum." Which doesn't seem very pro-town IMO. But some of his actions seem fairly pro-town, so I'm kinda iffy but leaning scum for his alignment.

As for Deer, he's basically spent the whole game being as vague as possible, and only made a grand total of two votes yesterday, both of them on the wagons du jour. He doesn't seem to have much original thought nor content in his posts. Frankly I don't see much, if anything pro-town about this guy.

I'm going to go with a

vote: deer

for now.

[jbernier93]

As far as jbernier93 is concerned (did I get his name perfectly right? I'd hate to have him mad at me for not paying attention or some nonsense.) I think he's quite potentially scum -- I've been in a game or two with him and he's playing .... oddly this time out. plus, some of his ideas are just ... weird. Plus, his assuredness on SSSSSS being scum and then his humourous attempt at cooking a sock afterwards -- just, again, odd. Not an odd play, but an odd way of handking it, I think.

How exactly is my behavior here inconsistent with my behavior in other games?
How are weird ideas scumtells?
And how is being humorous a scumtell?

[jbernier93]

As far as jbernier93 is concerned, it's just subtle things that've caught my attention between this game and other games; nothing I can really put my finger on and explicate here, so, as far as a scumtell goes, not any more useful than a 'gut feeling.' Just a thing or two that caught my eye.

[/quote]
Well, care to share what that thing or two is?
And care to answer my questions I asked you, like how weird ideas and being humorous are scumtells?

[jbernier93]

JB, what do you think of SpyreX's scum-group? Do you think there's at least one scum in that group?

NS, Deer, and Tewuicah? I think Deer/RedCoyote is scummy, NS is vaguely scummy but more just really bizzare and Te/Nikanor seems pretty townish to me... so yes I think there's at least one scum in the group.

[jbernier93]

JB - What are your thoughts on NS's recent revelation on each player??

Bland, nothing worth commenting on. Seems generic enough that it could come from town or scum.

Well, this game of mafia is starting to sound more like a thread in "Mafia Discussion!"

Well maybe you should try to "expedite the scumhunting!"

I like to pick on those who complain without really attempting to move the game along. fitz is an opposite example of these two quotes above. He said the game was moving slow, so he asked a general question.

It was just an "LOL" comment... chill.

As a secondary lynch, I'd probably be more inclined to jbern rather than Nikanor (although I think Nikanor is more suspicious). jbern made some comment that SSSS was going to flip scum or he'd eat his sock. Well, I don't know about that sort of absolution, especially on a D1 lynch. Moreover, jbern played to both the SSSS and the NS wagons. Maybe he liked them both, I don't know, but I suspect he was trying to stay on Te and peanut's goodside. jbern has generally been flying under the radar it seems like. I know there have been many replacements and lurkers, but I would say jbern, Te, and NS are all guilty of only making posts when really necessary. Maybe I'm offbase if someone can prove me wrong empirically, and I'll retract this point if that's the case.

SSSS was the scummiest player I have seen in a while. Granted he flipped town, but his play was horrible.

Saying I "played to wagons" and was "trying to stay on someone's good side" seem to assume I'm scum.

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

[jbernier93]

jb is active lurking.

BS! Explain to me how I've been active lurking, I don't see how that post explains it.

Also he switches from his OMGUS vote on me to vote for the only other wagon with any steam today, DF13. Who recently voted SSSS.

WAIT WHAT?!
Lol.

Unvote. Vote: jbernier93.

Only scum try to use OMGUS as a tell.

Uhm.
A) Where is your evidence for this?
B) I had already voted SSSS at this point, and was just noting that he switched from an OMGUS vote to a popular wagon. It wasn't being used to further my case, as far as I remember.

[jbernier93]

A) Where is your evidence for this?
B) I had already voted SSSS at this point, and was just noting that he switched from an OMGUS vote to a popular wagon. It wasn't being used to further my case, as far as I remember.

A) I don't need evidence; I have the power of righteousness on my side!
Also, only newbtown and scum ever say that OMGUS is a tell. Are you newbtown, jb?
B) You said he was OMGUSing. That's a good enough scumtell for me to want to lynch you.

No, I am not noobtown, but since when do only scum call out players on OMGUSing? Seriously, I mean I expect to be called scummy several times per game, but not for crap like this!
And you still didn't explain the active lurking thing.

[jbernier93]

since when do only scum call out players on OMGUSing? Seriously, I mean I expect to be called scummy several times per game, but not for crap like this!

It's been only scum calling other players out on OMGUSing ever since town has stopped doing it.

And you still didn't explain the active lurking thing.

It's not scumhunting, so it's active lurking.

A) That's really horrible circular logic... :/
B) Uhm, that's not really what my definition of active lurking is. First of all, it is impossible for every single post in the game to be totally scumhunting. Secondly, I would define active lurking as "posting frequently enough to provide an illusion of content where there is none." Your Mileage May Vary, but I would not consider my actions active lurking. :/

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

Who is your prime suspect right now?.

That would be the player I'm voting... Deer was scummy and RC hasn't done anything townie enough to make me move my vote.

[jbernier93]

That would be the player I'm voting... Deer was scummy and RC hasn't done anything townie enough to make me move my vote.

"Deer was scummy".

Is that all you're banking on? Why don't you try actually engaging me. Even if you don't want to argue about my contributions, I'm willing to argue about Deer. I know I replaced Deer, but I honestly also think he's gotten a bad rap. If we're going to lynch based on D1 actions, then you, Spyrex, or Nikanor need to eat the lynch today.

I've explained why I thought Deer was scummy when I voted him. Again, you haven't done anything particularly townie... thus, my vote remains on you.

V/LA until Tuesday

[jbernier93]

Aw Hell.

Mod, can we have an official votecount please?

For the record, I personally think it's more likely we have one rather than two scum on the SSSS wagon.

Any reason why you wanted to post fluff? Same goes for your post right before that one...

I've explained why I thought Deer was scummy when I voted him. Again, you haven't done anything particularly townie... thus, my vote remains on you.

Alright. If this is the attitude you're going to take to the game, full on defense, focused entirely on me, not interested in scumhunting, interrogating, or just generally trying to see any other point of view, then I can't imagine you are a townie. From my experience, scum have a greater propensity to say things like, "I already gave my reasons for X" or "Nothing has really changed since I last posted". You're just digging your heels in and crossing your fingers that no one will look at you, aren't you? Admit it. You have nothing to ask of Sucrose, NS, Spyrex, Dragonfly, anyone, because you already have it all in your head.

I take issue with this. Your initial post seemed like you hadn't seen my reasons for voting deer. I'm not going to be redundant and repeat myself in a game with less than 20 pages so far.
And as for the rest of it... I'm playing the game how I've always played it: reading posts, responding to them when I have something to comment on, calling people out on/voting people for scummy things, and answering things directed in my direction.

I'd honestly prefer a

vote: jbernier93

at this point. jbern's posts, if you call them that, are crap. He's decided to take a V/LA until

after

the deadline, assuming the deadline is on the 29th as chau said.

He's kept his vote on me the entire day, he's refused to try and analyze the game beyond whatever notions he's carried over from D1, and he's not interested in helping the town. I think he thinks he can get away with it because, one, he thinks I'm tunnelled on Spyrex, two, he thinks he's in the "popular" group of players voting me, and three, he thinks NS and peanutman are currently lurking.

...
I apologize for planning a weekend-long trip where I wouldn't have internet access months before I even signed up for this game. I'm sorry that I enjoy scouting, camping, and traveling, and that I didn't think ahead enough to know that I'd be approaching the deadline in a mafia game. And I'm also sorry that I'm currently A) attending high school and B) need to attend an informational meeting for a trip to Europe next year tomorrow, chewing up most of my day tomorrow. From now on, I'll just schedule my life around mafia.

And the second paragraph is just dumb and stupid and stupid and dumb. Since when do you know my thought process? I have kept my vote on you the entire day because, surprise surprise, I've been happy with that vote. Accusing me of refusing to analyze the game is just wrong. I have been doing exactly that, otherwise why would I play mafia? You think I'm stupid? Or just that I don't understand mafia?
(tl; dr version: Screw you, RedCoyote!)

In other news, this:

I change my mind. We should lynch NS today.

Unvote; Vote: Nobody Special

is exactly how I feel. He was scummy day 1, and today has been making extremely general statements and backing off from every other thing he is attacked for. I especially don't like his ISO post 19 where he says "No self commenting." IMO, this is generally agreed upon to be either dumb or scummy... yet by saying that, it is clear that this entered his mind when he was making his post... but townies shouldn't be worried if they are saying something scummy, they know they are town.

unvote, vote:Nobody Special

[jbernier93]

I apologize for planning a weekend-long trip where I wouldn't have internet access months before I even signed up for this game. I'm sorry that I enjoy scouting, camping, and traveling, and that I didn't think ahead enough to know that I'd be approaching the deadline in a mafia game. And I'm also sorry that I'm currently A) attending high school and B) need to attend an informational meeting for a trip to Europe next year tomorrow, chewing up most of my day tomorrow. From now on, I'll just schedule my life around mafia.

And the second paragraph is just dumb and stupid and stupid and dumb. Since when do you know my thought process? I have kept my vote on you the entire day because, surprise surprise, I've been happy with that vote. Accusing me of refusing to analyze the game is just wrong. I have been doing exactly that, otherwise why would I play mafia? You think I'm stupid? Or just that I don't understand mafia?
(tl; dr version: Screw you, RedCoyote!)

Let me summarize:

"AtE! AtE! AtE!"

I'm comfortable with my vote.

Incorrect. I A) explained how your attack on me for going V/LA was total BS and should never, ever be used ever again and B) responded to all your points against me. I'm not exactly whose emotions I was appealing to... Honestly, I couldn't care less if you were voting me, I just want you to retract your attack on me for going V/LA.

[jbernier93]

JB - You missed my question:

I actually was just waiting until it was more convenient to respond to.

Especially JB's change of heart. What happened to your Dragonfly suspicions JB?

Dragonfly's actions today haven't been very townie nor very scummy, while nobody's actions have crept him up on my scumdar. It may look like a sudden change of heart, but you'll note that I found NS scummy yesterday too.

but townies shouldn't be worried if they are saying something scummy, they know they are town.

Untrue! Being mislynched for seeming scummy sucks, imo. If your statement were true, I could go around lying in every direction and not expect to be lynched for it.

Right, but you shouldn't be worried about being perceived as scummy, since as town you should be doing pro-town things.

Honestly, I couldn't care less if you were voting me, I just want you to retract your attack on me for going V/LA.

Really? But if you were town, wouldn't you be happy to see entirely baseless attacks? I know I'm

always

happy to see one person make an unbased attack against another person, even if that other person is myself.

lolwut?

jb, can I get a list of your current suspicions, please?

Sure.
In order from scummiest to least scummy:
NobodySpecial
DragonFly
RedCoyote/Sucrose (about equal)

[jbernier93]

I don't know how it's even possible that Dragonfly moved above me (unless you're taking a page from Sucrose XD).

Dragonfly didn't move up per se, you moved down...