Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[rzhang86]

yo come on how could someone kill nancy flixtot the oldest person in our town, so messed up...

who did it??

[rzhang86]

hmmm, what to do what to do...

[rzhang86]

so lets make it interesting....

vote: Deer

[rzhang86]

LOL wow everybody just turns around and vote for me. do you think im that stupid that i hadnt already thought about whether voting Deer would be scummy or not?

yes i knew i was putting him at exactly L-1 (not L-2, and not hammer). i voted Deer for the same reason fallen angel did... i was making his "gambit" more effective, if it was gonna work at all. L-2 isnt very much pressure, L-1 is when things happen if they are going to happen. i decided to support fallen angel's gambit because the game has been dead so far and this was the most proactive step anyone has taken yet.

but now that the fallen angel has explained his own gambit, the gambit isnt very useful anymore. he shouldnt have even told anyone it was a gambit until after he found what he was looking. its ironic how much patience people have in this game when its dead (ie chatting about nothing) but have so little patience when the game gets interesting.

yes i only have 1 game on my record, but that only means i am a noob to this particular website (and we shouldnt talk about that game because i think it is still in progress). i am not so noob to just bandwagon in the most obviously suspicious way if i were actually scum.... give me some credit jeez

[rzhang86]

if you are gonna attempt a gambit, then carry it all the way through. dont half ass it by notifying people its a gambit, and especially dont explain it until after the gambit has paid off or failed.

a gambit by definition means you are taking on a risk for a period of time for a shot at a reward. the risk usually involved is appearing one way when you are actually another way (ie appearing scummy when you are actually town, or vice versa in the broadest sense). if you cant the risk then dont try the gambit.

[rzhang86]

sorry to triple post but i would like to add one more thing. can we agree ahead of time (now) that if someone is at L-1 and you have the power to hammer, you will not do so until the person has had a chance to speak all he has to say?

i would like to know whether this game will be gambit friendly or not, some of us like that style of play.

[rzhang86]

Hmm. Well, I'm personally okay with fallen's "gambit," but here's what I think could have happened: fallen places his vote, rzhang sees there's some sort of bandwagon happening, hops on. his vote is seen as scummy, he has to back up and pretend like he knew what fallen was doing the whole time to defend himself, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. he made that post only after fallen explained himself to the the town. Putting me at L-1 (which i think I wasn't ever at anyways, haha) for no reason doesn't really help the town. I'm not satisfied at all with his explanation of trying to help the gambit work - it just seems like retroactive justification to me. And now he's talking about whether this game will be "gambit friendly" as if he has a whole bunch of experience on the site.

I do like the fact SSSS got off the wagon, though.

chauchau, I'm pretty sure you have me confused with water_foul, by the way.

first of all, it is beyond me how you interpreted my post as saying that i have a "whole bunch of experience on the site" when i stated explicitly "i am a noob to this particular website"

secondly, consider that while your thinking is entirely plausible, it does not affect how equally plausible my explanation is, given that i would obviously only have explained myself "retroactively" given that it was a gambit.

think what you wish, you are entitled to that. but consider also that i have now actually got the game going (after 3 pages of boring RVS that could easily have continued several more pages), which is what i explained that i wanted to do. your votes for me are really the first non-random votes, misplaced as they are.

and also, just throwing it out there as food for thought, do i post like someone who would be so noob that i would make an L-1 vote as scum on an obviously random bandwagon thinking that it will actually get someone lynched.... i mean i would have to be really nooby or stupid, despite my posts (which i shall claim to be at least not nooby or stupid). but if that is your opinion of me then i guess its just a shame

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

well i asked because in my last game (yeah my only other game on this site) i was voted and hammered before i could say anything. i was majority voted within a period of a few hours before i got to post a defense. so after that i wasnt sure that it was an unwritten rule here.....

[rzhang86]

also, i asked about whether people will agree not to hammer before the suspect is able to say everything he has to say, because it is an element i would like to add to the "field" of this game.

the game starts with an empty field, everybody knows the same things (which is nothing) and all decisions are random. the game only gets going when elements have been added to the field that can be analyzed and attacked or defended, and that can begin to guide people to think or do something non-random. i am just doing that, adding elements to the field, so that maybe we can skip the random stage as quickly as possible because it was looking like it would take a long time in this particular game. so far, my only goal was to be a catalyst of the game itself rather than a player of my particular role. you can take that knowledge of what my goal was and try to apply it to what my role is if you really want to, but your read of me would would really be random... because i stepped outside of my role for a while to try and accelerate the game (think of it as if you were playing a computer game and you "stepped out" of the game for a bit to type in a cheat code that gets you to the next level because this level was boring).

now, i am playing my role and defending myself. i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that my voting Deer to L-1 was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

I'm not sure what you're smoking... but regardless, it's an unwritten rule of mafia not to hammer when someone is at l-1 until they can post/defend themself...

'Specially not before a claim.

not sure if you mean it is ok to hammer someone without last words after a claim?

i mean, basically, in my last game i was vanilla townie and i claimed doctor. then the real doctor counterclaimed, and then i was voted and hammered before i could respond. i dont want to discuss any details because the game is still in progress, but basically i was attempting a gambit and then was lynched before i could explain. that is why i brought it up here, and i apologize if it was unnecessary to do so.

[rzhang86]

HoS rzhang86.

He's taking more credit then he should for actions that did basically nothing.

if you really think my actions did nothing, then why has it become the center of discussion?

i did not take credit for your gambit and your actions. but i do take credit for my part, voting to L-1 (which, i dont mean this in an offensive way, you did not do and which is quite different from voting to L-2). and yes i am taking credit for getting the game going, a direct consequence of my L-1 vote. i give you credit for seeding the first interesting thing to happen in this game, and i take credit for making it flower.

i mean honestly, if you just dont believe me then there is nothing i can do, if i am lynched then so be it i have explained basically everything i have to say about it. analyze it and make your best judgements. i am playing this game to have fun, and the real fun is here, not in the random voting stage.

the random voting stage in my other game on this site lasted several long days and the game was so slow and went nowhere, and only picked up when a scum actually got so bored he left the game and was replaced, and the replacement made a stupid slip because he hadnt carefully read all the barren long pages thus far.

you can read my other game if you want, its all true. everything ive done so far has been in efforts to take the aspects of my previous game that i didnt like and better them here.

i think i have been very forthright and thorough, and also plausible to any reasonable person, in my explanations thus far.

[rzhang86]

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

broadly speaking yes townies shouldnt lie, but dont you think it is naive to say that there is never a circumstance in which it can be helpful to town if a townie lies?

i really am itching to elaborate on this, but i really feel it is inappropriate because that game is still in progress. all i will say is that i disagree, it is not always right to lynch all liars. some scum are smart, and to find them you must deceive them, and in some circumstances deceiving them also means deceiving everyone else until after the scum has fallen for the trap and things can be cleared up.

[rzhang86]

The thing is, rzhang, your explanations have not been about why you are town and not scum. That's what this game is about. No one cares if your actions started discussion in the game - it's not a viable defense.

maybe, just maybe, it is because i obviously cant defend that i am town at this point? i mean honestly, what am i going to base it on, the random voting stage before this... because that was the only thing that has happened before this...

like i said, the field was empty. i have nothing to point at with which to defend myself.

i can only explain why i did what i did, i have no evidence to show that it was pro-town (and i even stated that it was not pro-town, it was a neutral action). yes it is a viable defense, because it explains my actions. im sorry i cannot explain why i am pro-town at this point. seriously, can anyone else give evidence that they are pro-town at this point?

please dont ask such loaded questions its really not good form

[rzhang86]

@syke, can we get an official vote count asap?

[rzhang86]

@fallen angel

*sigh* i did not "inadvertantly" make everyone think im scum. i already stated that i KNEW i was putting myself out there as an element to be attacked. that was part of my gambit, part of the risk i was taking. i dont know how much more clear i couldve been about that.

you said my actions did nothing, but i dont understand why you would think that since my actions are currently the spotlight of attention.

and in response to your last post, im not following how you took that quote of me and interpreted as me saying i give up... i guess i will try to explain it yet again. you asked me (to paraphrase your words) why am i town and not scum? my reply is that i cannot show you that i am town, for the same reason that nobody else can show you that they are town, because there is no body of evidence draw from yet. prior to this was random voting, and prior to that was player confirmation. i can, however, show that i am not scum by my defense that my actions were neutral (ie neutral != scum).

i am not giving up and i cant find anything ive said to suggest that. if anything i am the most active person in this game right now, i mean why the hell would you think i am giving up?

i am getting the slight impression that maybe you are attempting to twist my words to fit your notion that i am scum...

[rzhang86]

Vote Count:

Deer (4): Sucrose, water_foul, fallen angel, rzhang86
Sucrose (1): Nobody Special
Nobody Special (2): chauchaudotcom, havingfitz
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1):TeWuicah

With 11 players it takes 6 to lynch.

Deer is at L-2

um, so i duno if i missed something or what because i couldve sworn Deer was at L-1 after i voted? it was not my intention to bring him to L-2... did i mess up? if it was my mistake then i apologize for the fiasco

[rzhang86]

*sigh* I meant you're actions did nothing to help my plan. It honestly hurt it, seeing as all attention was drawn towards you afterwards, so nothing was gained.

I get that. But you're saying that you're neutral. If you are town, instead of focusing on that, try and redeem yourself instead of saying "Well, I can't prove it to you." You aren't getting lynched within the next real-life day or more, (at least, not if the town has *any* commons sense), so get out of the hole you dug. I meant giving up on anything useful. All you're doing is saying "I'm not scum but I can't prove it. Oh, and I did everything useful with FA's gambit."

Nope. I'm just trying to figure out how you think you're helping in the least bit.

for the moment im just going to respond very ambiguously that i believe i am helping and that i hope eventually there will come a time where i can show exactly how i am helping. and if that time comes, not that it definitely will, i hope you wont think that i am making up another "retroactive" explanation at that time.

my goal now is to just to convince people that i have not been scummy up to this point, to the best of my ability. whether or not i am viewed as being helpful is less important to me at this point in time.

[rzhang86]

other people please post, you look bad lurking during a time like this

[rzhang86]

This is a general reply to all the people that have been commenting towards me.

I will make an effort to capitalize so you don't get another headache... although if you are serious about getting headaches just from reading non-capitalized text then you may have a medical issue...

There is a point of confusion that I thought I made clear but apparently didn't. I was not attempting to perpetuate fallen angel's gambit, I was riding on his gambit to start my own gambit. His gambit already failed when he declared it was a gambit at all, which I already commented on but whatever I guess it wasn't understood. I was undertaking my own gambit that involved voting Deer to L-1. There seems to be some confusion, because I apparently voted him to L-2, even though I'm almost positive that when I had voted the official count stated Deer was already at L-2. When I said that I voted for Deer for the same reason that fallen angel did, I meant that it was to try a gambit, not that it was to continue his gambit.

Secondly, to address the several comments about my previous game and also lying as town. I was not in danger of being lynched when I fakeclaimed in that game, it was not a move to try and save myself. I fakeclaimed for a completely different reason, it was not to protect myself it was to help town, but instead the real doctor CC'd and town lynched me almost right away without giving me time to even explain (which I did not expect, and which is why I made a point about not letting that happen in this game). That is all I would like to say about that game, because at this point that is the extent of the knowledge available to the public in that game. Someone here quoted my previous game where I said something to the effect of "I am nooby as it gets" but I was not being serious when I said that, but OK you can believe it if you want it is sort of irrelevant. The only point I would like to make that is relevant to this game is that I had thought about the consequences of voting Deer to L-1 (which it turns out was L-2, but I thought was L-1), including that it would most obviously seem like a nooby scum tell at first glance, but that I had in fact taken that into consideration and assumed it wouldn't be a problem because I thought it would be such an obvious "tell" that it would be relatively easy to discredit as being the real reason I made the vote. That is basically the only point regarding my noobiness that I wanted to make, I didn't intend to indicate what my level of experience was only that it was higher than the level it would take to legitimately make that scum tell.

Third, please don't assume that when I place a vote for someone it means that I would like that person to be lynched. If my vote was the hammer then yes that would be a fair assumption, but otherwise it really is not a valid assumption. Votes have many uses, of which achieving lynch is only one. This includes many pro-town uses. Hammering someone without giving a good reason may be scummy in general, I'll give you that. But voting someone to L-1 without giving a reason is not necessarily scummy, and in fact can have powerful pro-town uses. Look, I understand *why* you would at first glance suspect my vote *could* be scummy, but I am saying now that it *could* also be anti-scummy and that my reasons happen to be for the latter even if I do not want to state what my reasons are. Yes this is a "retroactive" statement, but I am also saying that this too is by design.

And yes I am aware that my vote is still on Deer. Whether or not he is my actual main suspect I would not like to say at this time.

Yes, I am attempting to shed light on certain things but still mask certain other things. Again, this is not necessarily scummy. It is just not my style to play completely transparently or truthfully, it is boring and uncreative. This game is about manipulation of information.

[rzhang86]

Sorry, in my previous when I said "anti-scummy" I meant to say "non-scummy".

[rzhang86]

@syke

It looks like you made some mistakes counting the votes and then posted an official but wrong count of the votes. Then some of us made some important decisions based on your official but wrong count. Then it was discovered your count was wrong and you edited the post containing your official but wrong count to the right count. But now, there is no record of the wrong count that was original there, upon which some of us made decisions.

Would you please preserve the wrong counts for posterity, maybe cross it out, and simply append the correct count? Would you please not erase anything you post, including a wrong count? It is all important and relevent information, because things you say affect the unfolding of the game. We cannot erase our posts, I don't think it is fair if you erase your posts even if you do have such powers.

Syke: I have not been in a single game where a VC has been amended that way. In my general experience the count is just edited after the fact. Furthermore if I edit my own post its timestamped and I see no reason to put stamps on my other edits. They are generally post error edits not significant information.

[rzhang86]

@syke

Also, would you make sure that each edit you make has a timestamp that can be distinguished clearly? This is important for us to piece together the chronology of past knowledge.