Mini 919: Quiz Show Mafia -- Game Over!

[The Inquisition]

some clarifying questions, max:
1. you say to each player, so i can ask 11 questions in total, correct?
2. Do i have to do this in the same post or can i space them out?
3. Can we ask compound questions (the rules of evidence in court don't allow for this, for example)?

[The Inquisition]

i don't understand why we'd be able to talk outside the questions. what would the purpose be? I'd stop posting until the mod is able to answer.

[The Inquisition]

Questions For Players

bv310 - if your role were a fruit, what role would it be?
Cobalt - If you were an SK, what strategy would you take this game to win?
CryMeARiver - If you were given one ability in addition to your own to help you win this game, what would it be and why?
Debonair Danny DiPietro - What's your strategy for winning this game?
Doombunny9 - Can you give me two good reasons we shouldn't just lynch you on the first round of voting?
DragonsofSummer - If you had to, who would you policy lynch?
Ellibereth - What types of questions would you expect to see from a scum?
farside22 - Which is lonelier when you play, town or scum? Why?
Kirbyoshi - If you had to pick up your role at a bar, what pickup line would you use?
Netopalis - Why did you decide to play this game?
Sanhora - If one person should absolutely not be lynched day 1, who would it be and why?

[The Inquisition]

1. No question from bv

Boo

2. Are you town?

Yes.

3. Have you played with any of the players in this game before and how do they typically act?

I think I played with Cobalt. I think I found him scummy and he turned out to be SK.

4. Do you have the same alignment as bv310?

I have no idea.

5. Would you consider yourself a "good" person when playing scum?

I guess so, but the only games I have are as town (4 games)

6. Do you support the Lynch all Lurkers argument? Why or why not?

No. At least not in this game. This game essentially forces the same amount of participation from each player. We get to ask one question to each player. We get to answer each question once. We get to vote once. I might have a Lynch Evasive Answers thing, but that's not policy. That's because I think it'd be scummy.

7. How important do you find meta?

I have yet to see where meta has actually been used in a convincing manner and has led to a correct lynch and there's been a reasonable connection (i.e. meta is used and that person is lynched AND they were acting within their meta).

8. Would you please link and describe how you act in a game as mafia and as town?

I have no games as scum.

Town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 91&start=0

I aggresively pursued saberwolf who was lynched on Day 2 but was town.

9. Are you going to live up to your name and ask BA questions?

I'm not sure what BA questions means, but I hope to ask questions that can help spur questions. I think everyone should ask questions that are open-ended. This has less relevance to these starting questions, but it will later. Yes or No questions will be unhelpful.

10. Describe your style of play on this site, and what you value the most in the game of mafia.

I try to play aggressively usually although that will be a challenge in this format. I value when a player breaks and they lose their cool, allowing a brief exposure to their actual alignment -- scum or town.

11. What's your opinion of rolefishing?

It depends on the purpose. General rolefishing is most often a bad idea as it can usually give scum more information than town. But specific rolefishing can be useful if a player has a very good idea of why he is doing it. For example, if he's a power role and has a confusing result on a player, attempting to draw that out without exposing that player may be worthwhile.

[The Inquisition]

vote: ellibereth

[The Inquisition]

The Inquisition Q2

bv310 - We have three question and answer rounds in Day 1 and only 2 in the subsequent days. Why have you not asked everyone a question?

Cobalt - You said you found Kirbyoshi scummiest when you answered your questions. What made you believe that doombunny was scummier than kirboyshi by the time you voted?

CryMeARiver - You say you don't like Lynch All Lurkers and then you voted bv. Why do you think he's the scummiest player?

Debonair Danny DiPietro - Have Ellibereth's current actions been consistent with town play?

Doombunny9 - You placed the second vote on me. Did you expect to see L-1 on me when you made that vote, and given that we have had precisely one round of voting, do you think this apparent early bandwagon is well founded or do you think it's a convenient vehicle for those who are lazy and/or scum to hide out in?

DragonsofSummer - You presumably waited and made your vote with the knowledge that no matter what you did, it could not possibly lead to a lynch. What was the full purpose of voting me, and do you think that if you were scum this would be an effective way of laying low by jumping onto an established bandwagon but without any hope of actually being held responsible for it (i.e. no lynch would occur).

Ellibereth - Given that our game has extremely limited opportunities for interaction, do you agree that you have (1) been evasive in both your answers and your vote and (2) this has hurt the town?

farside22 - Do you think that if Ellibereth continues his policy of avoiding actually answering questions (please reread his responses) that we'll ever be able to get a good read on him outside of vote analysis (assuming he actually makes a vote)?

Kirbyoshi - You have characterized my questions about roles as fishing, but given that none have actually asked for anything that could actually confirm or deny them, do you think their purpose is to allow actual power roles to very subtlely breadcrumb and then later justify/make scum when claiming justify their response later or do you think it's actually an attempt to out power roles, and assuming you believe that it's actually to out power roles do you think scum would be dumb enough to role fish in Q1 (please answer without using the term WIFOM)?

Netopalis - Why dragonsofsummer? Do you think my question to him is fair?

Sanhora - Who do you think is the most town person now and why?

The Inquisition - What would you say if you had to criticize one person's response to a question this round?

[The Inquisition]

okay. figured it was worth a shot

[The Inquisition]

1.

Why did you ask so many filler game theory questions?

I don’t think I asked “filled” questions. They were questions designed to try and get some open ended responses.
Anyway, I find this a ridiculous question from a guy who asked, “are you town?”
2.

Since you don't have a chance to claim unless you are asked, this question is meant to give you the option to claim. Not a question, consider rephrasing in the future. I'll let it pass this once

If I’m close to being lynched again this time, I’ll claim. But I think it behooves no one to do that now. I shouldn’t be outright lynched this time though, or there are some very scummy people slamming the hammer on me. If I’m the prohibitive favorite to get lynched again, I’ll just ask everyone the same question along the lines of “do you believe the inquisition’s claim; do you plan on voting him still, and if not who should be the lynch?” Just make sure I answer questions FIRST and not after that or else it’s all for nothing.
3.

You picked up six votes in that first go around. What is your reaction to this large bandwagon?

I think it’s a pretty typical early game bandwagon, actually. It’s just highlighted because there are so few opportunities to vote in this game and so little ability to actually discuss. I think the 5th and 6th votes were pretty scummy though nothing incredible.
4.

What is your opinion on the bandwagon on you? Do you think any scum were on it and how many?

I think I’ve answered this. I think it’s weak, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s automatically a “Bad” wagon. It’s just an early game one, and if people stick with it despite it just being that, we’re in for some trouble.
5.

Elaborate more on what you think specific rolefishing is, and how rolefishing of any kind can be helpful to the town?

Example: I’m tracker. I have a result on you visiting someone but probably not the person who died. I try and get info from you about your role. This allows me a greater ability to determine whether to pursue you for a lynch or not. For example, if you give indication you’re a role that doesn’t visit people, then I’ve got more reason to out you.
6.

What pro-town motivation could you have for the question you asked me in Qs1?

What kind of scum-motivation could I have? Because the idea that I somehow asked a bunch of questions with a grand scheme of getting someone to give me their role by pick-up line or fruit is laughable.
Regardless, the game is uninformed majority vs. informed minority. While just outing roles is generally negative for a town (after all, only scum knows whether those claims are true or not), information acquisition IS a pro-town thing to do.
7.

Why did you vote for ellibereth?

He purposefully avoids giving away any information at all. He refuses, in essence, to play the game. His abstaining vote to me isn’t so problematic as his complete disregard for the question phase. His no vote can be explained a role thing. His refusal to work with the town is absurd.
8.

What do you think of Cobalt’s play so far?

Every time I play with Cobalt he comes across as troll. Whether that’s scum troll or town troll is difficult for me to say. I lean scum at this point.
9.

There have been several votes against you on the last voting stage. What do you think prompted those votes, and who do you think would have been a better lynch candidate?

I think the idea I’m rolefishing motivated the first votes as, like in RVS, the slightest reason suffices. I think the later votes were either by lazy folks or folks who were interested in hiding out on an already large wagon with momentum.
10.

During the first Question, Answer and Voting stage,whose actions did you find scummy and why?

Ellibereth remains scummy but probably not day 1 lynch scummy because of the weird-ass half-claim. I’m not buying it’s town in any way, but his lynch gives us little.
Dragon would be my preferred lynch. His was simply too convenient jump on my wagon (no, it’s not OMGUS). His answers have been half-baked, but his questions especially so. I’d urge everyone to take a close read of DragonofSummer.

[The Inquisition]

vote: Dragon

[The Inquisition]

Oman replacing bv310 – Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today (so someone needs to ask me what my list is), what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Cobalt - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

CryMeARiver - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Debonair Danny DiPietro - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Doombunny9 - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

DragonsofSummer - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Ellibereth - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

farside22 - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Kirbyoshi - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Netopalis - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

Sanhora - Given that my claim is vengeful townie (see below for explanation) and I will 100% use my power and thus die today forcing a different lynch today, what do you think my complete list of targets should be?

*As the vengeful townie, I can submit at any time a list of all players in our game in order. These people will be killed in order of what I have submitted until I reach a “wrong” person. It is wrong if I have put a third party before scum, put a power role before scum or third party, or put a townie before scum, third party or power role. Once I get something wrong, I die. Keep in mind that this means if I die after submitting my list that the first person on my list is cleared of being scum, though they could be a third party person.

[The Inquisition]

i'm pretty sure you have to wait to answer the questions after all questions have been asked. that's not to say YOUR questions can't somehow borrow and keep in mind my own questions...

[The Inquisition]

count the votes, cry. 12 people, 12 votes. and try not to make substantive comments out of turn, please.

[The Inquisition]

In what game could you ever see rolefishing to get breadcrumb from town as a pro-town action?

In almost all games so long as scum can’t divine the result before the claim. Forcing scum to justify an earlier breadcrumb with the role their claiming can make things difficult and allow for more insight into a fake claim. But a town power role won’t have to do that because they’ve always had the role in mind. Scum, in general, would rather keep their options for a fake claim open as long as possible, whereas town power roles always have only one claim.

Why aren't you helping me lynch CryMeARiver?

Not worth answering.

Why ask others who you think you should kill instead of making your own decisions?

Why are you asking me an inane question? I’m not asking them to make decisions for me, jackass. I’m asking them who they would put on their list. That information is important to me. And your insistence that I’m somehow still scum when someone who takes more than 10 seconds to think will realize I’m about to confirm my towniness makes you scummy. I just have to decide if you’re more or less scummy than the rest of these nincompoops.

Since we probably shouldn't lynch Inquisition, who would your second pick be and why?

Well, I’d say whoever on my list that is just below the highest person on my list who does not die.

During the first voting stage, you also reached L-1. Why didn't you claim back then and asked the questions you are asking now?

Use your head, man. My claim is one you only make when you are preparing to use the power. If I claim, I die. I did not particularly want to die. If you’re confused on the concept, consider even if I wasn’t lynched because of my claim, I’d almost certainly be nightkilled. Because my power is instant, I was 100% going to use my power and therefore 99% going to die (leaving out the possibility that I might actually manage to put all scum first and all third parties after that but before PRs and townies)

Why did you not claim before you were put at L1 again when I gave you the chance to?

See above.

Why are you resigned to being lynched today?

I am not. Please read my claim more carefully. I’m not going to get lynched today, and that’s 100% for sure. (I suppose there could be a day roleblocker, but it seems unlikely).

who are your top three scum reads?

I’ll do you one better and tell you who my top 11 scum reads are, in order:

1. Sanhora - Might as well make the only person I will 100% kill an almost-lurker.
2. Farside22 – I think she knows I’m telling the truth. She’s too smart to actually BS about my role claim, so I think she’s doing it on purpose to act like she had no knowledge beforehand. We’ll see though!
3. Ellibereth – My guess is 3rd party for ol’ Elli here.
4. Netopolis
5. Doombunny
6. Dragon of Summer
7. Cobalt
8. Oman
9. DDD
10. Kirbyoshi
11. CryMeARiver – placed low because you guys can lynch him once I’m dead. You guys need an easy lynch target because you don’t have any time to discuss it, so I hereby declare it is CMAR. Ignore my advice at the peril of a No Lynch.

I misread the rules of this a little. No matter what, the first person dies. It’s just a question of when I reach something that is not put in order. For example, if it’s vanilla, vanilla, scum I’ll kill the two vanillas but not the scum (and I’ll die). Or, for example, if it’s 3rd party, scum then I’ll kill the 3rd party. Use logic to solve this puzzle. So for example if you see that My first choice died and was a PR and the second person did not die, you know he’s either 3rd party or scum.


Are you nervous about the amount of votes on you?

Not in the slightest. This seems like a lazy-ass question.

Who do you feel has committed the largest scum tell so far today (other than Inquisition), and what was it?

I haven’t committed any sort of scum-tell.

[The Inquisition]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

[The Inquisition]

A few comments: let's be honest here. I got lucky. I nailed all 3 scum. I've played on this account and others over many, many games. The number of times I've known all the scum on the first day can be counted on zero fingers. Because I have never done that. I've certainly never been in a position to use my hunch to nail three. Furthermore, although I applaud myself for getting farside right, sanhora was a pure "lurker" scum vote, so I wasn't even all that suspicious. (when i say I got all three it's because I would have put Cry second or third if i had not wanted to provide town with an easy lynch after i failed with my role).

So yes, it's swingy. But so are many power roles if they happen to get as lucky as I did.

---
I thought the game was interesting. But I think people played it exceptionally poorly. Let's get something straight: starting discussion is not scummy. I was not "role fishing." Those who played on that were playing poorly. I'll take the rap when I fit the crime (I've been lynched quite a few times before when I've done something that in retrospect was an error andmy fault), but I honestly think you guys screwed up.

Elli, you especially need to look at your play. So you're the cop. So you have a voting restriction to investigate. But you did NOT have an answer restriction. There was no, I repeat, NO reason for you to pretend to have one. I think you played lazy and tried to play it off as role related.

For this game to work, people in general needed to pay attention to not only the questions directed at them and the questions they asked that were answered but questions posed to others.

---
Max, I think the mechanic is an interesting one, but I don't think it's reached its full potential. I think it might be best used as PART of another mechanic. For example, maybe incorporate it into a lawyer themed game: question and answer stage followed by 7 days of discussion followed by question and answer stage, but questions and answers can be objected to under a number of grounds (e.g. compound question, leading question, non-responsive, asked and answered, etc.) with either the mod or a player acting as "judge" with some penalty or reward for having an objection sustained.

But that's only one example.

[The Inquisition]

Gee Max, thanks for giving me such a useless role, lol.

But seriously, one thing that seems to be understated is that The Inq could have just as easily hit Elli, bv, and me as Sanhora, CMAR, and farside, thus undercutting town's power (or at least perceived power), while giving scum a big confidence boost. Enraged Townie, even more so than Vig, is such a swing role that the potential benefit for town vs. scum is almost equal.

I agree with this, but the point of arguing against swinginess is not that a role is necessarily

unbalanced

, but rather that the effect of a role can cause strong swings in favor or against a particular team. Sort of like how when you invest for retirement, you think not only about the average returnn you might get by age of retirement with a strategy but the range of results. You might think that an average of 10% return is great, but if that swings between 2% and 18% and you can't survive on 2%, you might not pick that strategy.