Open 203: C/9 Mafia Wins!

[Gayle]

Fuck serious, more rvs!

Vote: danakillsu

'cause it's better to kill dana first.

[Gayle]

Mod: you might want to send a PM to everyone with this link.

I think you might need to do this, Sho.

[Gayle]

FoS Gayle

Don't like how you encourage people to get back into the RVS when serious attempts to get us out are being made.

You shouldn't need to make serious attempts to get out of RVS. RVS should lead to discussion and naturally end. "Who have you played with before" is not going to lead to

anything

. RVS is infinitely more useful than such a pointless question.

[Gayle]

I might be stupid, but lowell hasn't even voted.. erm..

vote scott

He certainly wasn't third on the bandwagon though.

[Gayle]

You shouldn't need to make serious attempts to get out of RVS.

In the same hand you shouldn't need to discourage it either.

I wasn't. But calling an end to RVS for a question that will lead to nothing was stupid.

Disagree so much, admittedly that question is not a good one. However RVS leads to bandwagon's for no reason. Making points about the set-up can lead to conversation with no RVS.

The problem with setup discussion is that it is less likely to lead to any scum hunting, whereas in RVS you can question those bandwagons, you can fish for reactions, etc. The best thing about RVS is that it starts the game relatively quickly, as opposed to RQS which leaves you answering boring, vaguely useful questions for days and strategy discussion which can leave you with absolutely nothing to go on when it ends.

You only need to look at the questions accompanying the above quote to see what I mean about RQS.

As to the question addressed to me, yes RVS appears to be over now. How does this answer help you hunt scum?

Yeah, because "I am voting for you because your avatar is giving me the stink eye" really fosters serious conversation. For what it's worth, I think the post that has Gheb worried is a non-tell. But you are wrong about RVS.

I can tell it is going to be "fun" arguing with you already. I'm not wrong. You don't discuss the avatar, you discuss the bandwagon, you purposefully pile on the bandwagon to draw reactions, you exaggerate the implications of someone's vote in order to pressure them, etc. You see who reacts to what and how.

Also,

[Gayle]

This specific question does not, your opinion however does. At what point, would you say, that the RVS was over?

At what point does this line of questioning lead to anything at all helpful? Please stop asking such pointless questions. They are not leading anywhere. They are not going to lead anywhere. RVS ended when you and Gheb decided it was a better idea to focus on questions that do not help anyone to find scum in anyway.

RQS, within about 2 days brings results. Once my questioning is finished, entirely ignoring RVS I will have my suspects. In fact most RVS stages end when a player asks a random question with an dissatisfying answer, why not cut out the middle man.

Because it is very difficult to get a dissatisfying answer from the kinds of questions used in RQS. Just look at the answers you have gotten so far.

Vote: Max

Based on the helpful information that Max's questions uncovered.
In other words: Nothing.

[Gayle]

You weren't?

Nope.

I've explained my views on RVS and RQS, so I am not going to bother with the rest of your post.

Gayle, what changed your opinion on RVS between Newbie 877 and this game?

What changed between my

second

game and now? I played in more games, I gained more experience, I realized how slow RQS is, I realized how much better RVS is, I realized how useless strategy discussion is in relation to scum hunting, and so on. In short, I learned better.

[Gayle]

Gayle, I promised to get you results in two days, I've used 6 hours. RVS has given you nothing, in fact you are voting me based on my questions therefore based on the RQS. Therefore I have just proven to you the RQS has brought about suspects.

The following I have deduced from my questioning:
- You dislike any change in the play methods used to start gaming conversation, regardless of the fact within the second page we have more info than most games make in the first 4.
- You suffer from tunnel vision majorly. There have been several posts before each of yours with content to pick at yet you choose to respond to myself. Confirmation Bias.
- kyle99 should have slow drifting scum reads rather than snap decision making. i.e. more than two pages to make his mind up on someone
- The1fifi treats mistakes and scumtells as separate when genuinely they are one and the same, for scum to be caught they must make mistakes.

Also Gayle, in the past 6 hours RQS has generated more discussion than the 24 hours beforehand. It has stimulated discussion which is the point of the RVS/RQS.

AND besides kyle99 has given me a scum read, why RV if an RVS means nothing? The point of RVS isn't for shits and giggles, it's so people can analyse the voting. You aren't doing that so why do you support the RVS?

Max, all of those "discoveries" are completely worthless in regards to scum hunting. The discussion didn't come from your questions, but from people arguing over RVS.

Also, your scum read on Kyle is ridiculous.

[Gayle]

What in particular made you "learn better?"

Experience.

I mean, it's only been a couple months since your second game so surely you can point to the eureka moment.

Let's get to the point. You want to say that I'm being dishonest about my liking of RVS, correct? I've already told you that playing more games changed my opinion about it. There is no "eureka moment". Go read Teleportation Mafia Universe One if you want to see another game of mine where I echo this sentiment.

Here's the problem: For all your praise of early wagons as a tool for scum hunting, you're doing a crap job of it. Like I haven't seen anything that looks like scum hunting from you, just whining about R(V/Q)S. Show us how it's done.

I would like to remind you that you are doing the same thing, sir. That is, whining instead of scum hunting.



Also,

Don't follow Gayle's example. For the good of this thread.

Says the guy that posted this

"Oh man. This is a "good" post. I'm "glad" I read it. I sure "hope" you mak

Fuck, I can only mock you for so long. It's exhausting to type like you

Which is nothing but pointless trolling.

I'm antagonistic, but that is just how I play. Don't take it to heart. I'm not trying to insult anybody.

[Gayle]

In post 49 you respond to Wdjat's post asking you to show us your vote analysing which you ignored. Why?

Do you feel that the RVS stage has lost meaning since the RQS vs. RVS battle took over?

RVS was brutally murdered by an argument and your RQS before anything could come out of it. So no, I am not going to try to analyze those votes.

Do you really believe that your questions are giving you a reliable read on the other players? Who are you top suspects and what makes them scummy? As clearly as possible, even if you have to repeat yourself.

Sorry for not posting yet. I'll read through and be back shortly.

vote:Gayle

for showing up in another game with me.

Love blossoms through frequent meetings. Every time I join a game, it is only to get closer to you.

[Gayle]

If you actually believed in the value of RVS, you could still have gained that value while other people are asking random questions.

Except that the argument with you and the RQS completely stopped the RVS.

Yeah you're still not showing us how it's done. Instead you're telling me that you're antagonistic and not to take it personally. I found my scum. It's you.

vote: Gayle

Okay. Whatever. Have fun.

[Gayle]

Really, in the last 2 pages of posts, nothing is giving you any tells? Perhaps you should reread.

So what are the tells you found, Kyle?

@Max:

You provided a list of suspects, but can you tell me what exactly you find scummy about them?

Vote Count-Sho
Scott-tatetothetot,
Lowell-Wdjat, gameplayah, the1fifi
gameplayah-the1fifi
Max-Gayle, kyle99, Lowell
Kyle99-gHEB
wdjat-danakillsu
Gayle-wdjat

[Gayle]

Unvote Vote Jacob Savage

Pressure vote.

What kind of reaction are you expecting from something like this?

@Fifi:

Why exactly are you voting kunk? Because he is attacking someone you find townie?

@MOD:

Prod Max and Gameplayah, please.

This game is so slow. Anybody wanna argue with me about something vaguely related to the game so we can get some posts?

[Gayle]

What reaction do I expect from a pressure vote? How about a player actually starting to post? Big surprise, huh?

A pressure vote without an explanation is pointless. Who is going to be pressured by a post that says "pressure vote" with no other explanation. I would have completely ignored your vote, were it against me.

If you claim that me pressure voting somebody is scummy you

should

elaborate.

Your vote is scummy because it is a pressure vote with no pressure and therefore pointless. Further, there is no way to respond to it.

Lowell is evidently scum, what are your feelings on lowell?

Lowell only needs to post more. I don't have a problem with any of his posts. He has voted you. His reason for voting you is as good as any other reason to vote so far. I think it was pointless to say "Jacob is town", but I don't find it scummy.

[Gayle]

I would be joining the Lowell wagon...

What has Lowell done that you find scummy?

...until I realized who was on it.Now that Lowell is being put in the spot light, people are changing their minds and voting for him based off of fear to keep attention of themselves

You mean gameplayah and Fifi? Why do you think either of them are voting Lowell "based off of fear to keep attention of themselves"? Not that I believe Fifi has any reason for his vote whatsoever.


And speaking of the Lowell votes, why is no one questioning the Lowell wagon? Every single vote on it is complete nonsense.

@Fifi:

You want to wagon him based on gut and because the game is slow?

What?

Are you saying you are willing to lynch him over nothing?

What is this supposed to mean really? Your wording implies a guiltiness and escaping from judgement. Also considering yourself unlynchable is way overconfident. If you exhibit scummy tendencies then you will be lynched. This whole confidence that you can sneak by any lynch is horrible.

...what? This post is 100% scum manufactured nonsense. You are making a gigantic deal out of absolutely nothing and using it to jump on a completely ridiculous wagon.

Vote: Kunkstar7

Defeatism never works. I honestly think that Lowell is acting scummier than Max atm, so I'm going to unvote, vote: Lowell

But

why

do you find him scummy?


Also, in an attempt to impress Master Sho:

Max(1) - JacobSavage
Lowell(4) - gameplayah The1fifi kunkstar7 kyle99
JacobSavage(1) - danakillsu
danakillsu(2) - Wdjat Gheb
kunkstar7(3) - tatetothetot Lowell Gayle

Not Voting (1) - Max

[Gayle]

Actually, I was referring to

Kyle and Krunk

about hidding behind Lowells wagon.

I would be joining the Lowell wagon until I realized who was on it.

Now that Lowell is being put in the spot light, people are changing their minds and voting for him based off of fear to keep attention of themselves.

What is this supposed to mean really? Your wording implies a guiltiness and escaping from judgement. Also considering yourself unlynchable is way overconfident. If you exhibit scummy tendencies then you will be lynched. This whole confidence that you can sneak by any lynch is horrible.

vote: lowell

Defeatism never works. I honestly think that Lowell is acting scummier than Max atm, so I'm going to unvote, vote: Lowell

Shenanigans.


Also, why are you voting Wdjat?

[Gayle]

I'd be happy with a no lynch to ofc. But i never done a no lynch, and what i heard from more experienced players is that it never is beneficial in d1

Why in the world would you be happy with a no lynch?

[Gayle]

I'd be happy with a no lynch to ofc. But i never done a no lynch, and what i heard from more experienced players is that it never is beneficial in d1

Why in the world would you be happy with a no lynch?

... Over a myslinch -.-

Why?

[Gayle]

Because.. i.. don't..want.. to.. kill.. townies. -.-

Okay, we have gotten a bit off track here.

Are you willing to lynch Lowell?
Are you saying that an alternative to lynching Lowell is a no lynch?
Are you saying that you would rather no lynch, than attempt to lynch in our current situation?

[Gayle]

You are willing to lynch Lowell. However, you only have a gut feeling about him. You are willing to risk a mislynch based on your gut?

[Gayle]

@MOD:

Are you alive? I know the streets of Shibuya are a dangerous place, but I would appreciate it if you let us know whether you were gunned down or something. I was recently in a game inwhich the mod was too sick to post, and it is not fun dealing with accidental hammers due to a lack of vote counts. Also,

Gameplayah needs to be replaced

. He hasn't posted since the 12th.

[Gayle]

Guess Sho actually is around. I didn't even notice that vote count. Can you... make it stand out a little more?

[Gayle]

Sho:

Can you place a deadline?

[Gayle]

Hey guys, anything new? That Hewitt fellow show up?

[Gayle]

DON'T YOU PROD ME GOD DAMN IT. DON'T YOU FUCKING PROD ME.

er... I mean, I'm here. I'll make some kind of post later.

[Gayle]

Apparently, I got prodded anyway. I'll post something after class today.

[Gayle]

Well, I'm back and all caught up. I don't think that Lowell's behavior was so scummy that we should not believe his claim (I actually have a null read of him). I still don't like kunk's vote on Lowell, as it still feels manufactured to me.

I don't have a problem with kyle99/his replacement so far. In fact, his was the only halfway justified vote on the lowell wagon.

Now, I'm going to change my vote to hewitt, because he is the second person to compare me to ABR, and I don't take kindly to that.

My problem with hewitt is that his reason for wanting to lynch lowell is a

policy lynch

based on

meta

. Another problem is that I don't like the way he responded to Gheb (when he pointed out that Lowell was at L-1), or his subsequent exchange with Fifi. Particularly,

No I mean like I really want to know what your qualifications for voting someone are.

seems like a complete lie to me.

Vote: hewitt

For advocating a policy lynch and the bad voodoo vibes I get from his responses to Gheb/Fifi.

[Gayle]

Incorrect statement. I voted to lynch Lowell because I know he's a weak player and hasn't done anything to change my mind in THIS game.

Lowell- I feel like every game I play with Lowell it's the same story. He doesn't really do anything and then cracks underneath a straw of pressure and lashes out and professes that he's more helpful than X player and that it'd be a mistake to lynch him and we'd be dumb to do that. I know that in every game I've played with him he's been extremely unhelpful and more of a hindrance to the town than anything. A player I would be very scared to see travel far in the game and have in any tight situations.

So for that reason I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

You don't say anything about his behavior in this game, or how he hasn't done anything to change your mind. Rather you say that Lowell should be lynched because of his behavior in past games.

And your last post isn't any better. It is still advocating a policy lynch based on meta. You are still saying that your main reason for wanting to lynch Lowell is because of his behavior in past games.

[Gayle]

How dare you simulpost me. I demand that you undo that post immediately.

[Gayle]

Got prodded in a few games. Give me until tomorrow.

[Gayle]

Hey guys, why exactly are you lynching Kyle? What exactly makes him a better lynch than someone like hewitt?

[Gayle]

What exactly makes him a better lynch than someone like hewitt?

That he has no interest in this game so he can't help town.
That hewitt isn't scummy....

Kyle was in the hospital and is being replaced, from my recollection. How can you say he has no interest in the game? How can you lynch him for no participation when he is being replaced?

I really don't know what to say if you think kyle is scummier than hewitt.

[Gayle]

Yes, and I can finally replace Kyle99 after massive delay.

charter replaces Kyle99.

Er... didn't Kyle just get hammered?

[Gayle]

Happy Birthday, Max.

[Gayle]

Checking in before I get prodded. I'll post something after class.

[Gayle]

Quickly,

Returning my vote to

Vote: Hewitt

If Lowell is not revealing his results, then he believes that he will survive the night.

I don't have much recollection of this game, but from memory, Dana, JacobSavage, and Fifi all had terrible reasons for voting kyle.

I'll try to make a better post tomorrow.

[Gayle]

Disregarding Hewitt for awhile, my suspects are Dana, Kunk, and Jacob.

Dana

voted Kyle as a pressure vote, but kept it until the lynch. He claims that he didn't

actually

want to lynch Kyle, but this is unlikely (in my opinion) as he kept his vote when Kyle was put at L-1 and even defended the wagon when I questioned it.

Kunk

voted kyle because "He's been scummy so far, and it fits with what I'm seen from him before" which is rather vague (especially considering Kunk showed no suspicions of kyle before his vote), and to "save the mod some trouble", which is either an excuse or an idiotic reason to lynch someone.

Jacob

simply agreed with Kunk's reason for voting. Much like Kunk, he showed no suspicion of Kyle before the vote. If Kunk is scum, Jacob is likely his buddy and was simply following him.

Vote: Kunkstar7

@Mod:

If you haven't already, please prod the following people. Yes, I realize that I am one of the slackers.
hewitt
The1fifi
JacobSavage
danakillsu

[Gayle]

That is a complete lie. You didn't say anything about it being a policy lynch. You

specifically

voted because you agreed with Kunkstar and his post said nothing about his vote being a policy lynch. Further, if it was a policy lynch then why didn't you remove your vote when Kyle requested replacement?

Vote: JacobSavage

JacobSavage-1-Gayle
The1fifi-1-Kunkstar7
lowell-1- danakillsu
danakillsu-1-Wdjat

[Gayle]

Why would you lynch him for lurking if he was being replaced?

[Gayle]

You knew he was being replaced before the hammer.

[Gayle]

Even the though post that you said "I agree" to specifically said that Kyle was being replaced?

[Gayle]

Fifi is not lurking. He has not posted on mafiascum at all since the 19th.

[Gayle]

Inb4 mafia purposely avoids doing NK

vote the1fiffi

Lest this game die. The fact of his absence doesn't exactly prove he's town in my book.

Neither does it prove that he is scum. If you want to just end the game, why don't you post your investigation results?

[Gayle]

Anybody against lynching Jacob?

@kunk: You are not a confirmed townie.

[Gayle]

Pretty sure no one will even notice given my rate of posting in this game, but I'll be v/la until sunday morning.

[Gayle]

Well, I'm keeping my vote on JacobSavage.

[Gayle]

I've been rather busy lately but I should be in the clear for awhile from here. I'll catch up tomorrow and see if I need to argue with lobstermania or not.

Did we ever get a replacement for hewitt?

[Gayle]

@Azelf: ...what?

[Gayle]

I caught up quite a bit ago. It may surprise you, but I am a literate person and it does not take me 24 hours to read three pages.

[Gayle]

I said I would see if there was reason to argue with you.

[Gayle]

Er... I kind of wanted to get a hewitt replacement first though...

[Gayle]

Wouldn't Lowell's buddying up to kunk make sense if he knew kunk was town from an investigation? I know I gave him trouble for this, but withholding the results until later in the day could allow you to form a more informed opinion on those attacking kunk. ...what I'm saying is don't just rule out that mafia could have their own reasons for not killing Lowell, whether it be fear of doctors or otherwise. </buddying>


I'm willing to cut Sho some slack, seeing as he is not the only person to disappear days at a time in this game. Jacob, you are not the mod and that is not an official flip.

[Gayle]

Just checking in before I get prodded. I'll be back later today.

@Azelf: This is an open game. You can see the setup in the OP. There are no roleblockers and we are as likely to have a doctor as we are a cop. In other words, none of what you just said makes any sense.

[Gayle]

I'm really lazy when it comes to this game.

Now, there is probably a doctor. I find it hard to believe that mafia did not send in a night kill, especially looking at how quickly this night passed relative to night 1. And if there is a doctor, the doctor likely did not protect Lowell. Why? Because if the doctor protected lowell, he could claim and confirm the alignment of 3 other players, which would be a huge advantage. The doctor isn't claiming, so we can assume he protected someone else. And if that is the case, then scum didn't try to kill lowell for the second night in a row.

So, I'm suggesting that we lynch Lowell. If he is telling the truth, we at least get two confirmed townies in exchange and town will actually focus on other players instead of just Lowell. If he is scum, we get the obvious advantage of one scum dead and eliminate the confusion of his claim and 'investigations'.

Vote:Lowell

I'll try to make a 'why lowell is scummy' post later. But knowing me, later may be 'several days from now'.

[Gayle]

I'm fine with ending the game.

Anyone object?

[Gayle]

>>Implying that the mod is actually around to prod people

[Gayle]

Just posting to say that I'm still in this game. Leaving my vote on Lowell.

[Gayle]

trollface.jpg

[Gayle]

Is that "..." in reference to Lowell's "I was trolling the whole time guys" or my "I'm gonna post random images instead of anything useful"?

[Gayle]

Wjdat was most likely town, and so Lowell II is likely town. Azelf is also likely town considering for a while he was the only one bothering to do any scum hunting.

As far as I remember, JacobSavage was scummy. For some reason.

Vote: JacobSavage

I have a theory that I can make this kind of post and no one will call me out because no one is around.

[Gayle]

Wdjat was town because he was doing the best and most aggressive scum hunting, enough even to annoy some folks. He was the most useful player in the game, period.

@Azelf: Go look back for whatever reasons I used to vote for JacobSavage the last time. In addition to that, the only possible scum (in my opinion, of course) are Kunk, Nacho (who replaced Hewitt), and Jacob. Nacho seems to be playing the game and is one of the few people keeping the game going. Kunk and Jacob are equally scummy, but Jacob is infinitely more useless.

Also, don't even try to pressure vote in this game. There is no one left that cares enough to be pressured.

[Gayle]

@Nacho: Gheb being town is my opinion. He has been pretty straightforward the entire game, even if I don't often agree with his opinion.

If you think I am going to put any kind of effort into defending another player or argue against a case that doesn't concern me you are going to be disappointed. I'm going to state my suspicions and cast my vote. What everyone else does is up to them.

[Gayle]

TRYING TO STOP TOWN FROM BEING LYNCHED: Totally not worth it.

What? That makes no sense. If you believe someone is town you should defend them, doing otherwise is obviously anti-town as you are allowing what you believe is a mislynch to go through?

Azelf was referring to me and, much like Lowell, I happen to specialize in anti-town.

Personally, I think defending a person just because you

think

they

might

be town is retarded. Especially when dealing with a player like Azelf who likes to make a big deal out of nothing.

[Gayle]

I forgot all about this game. Luckily, so did everyone else.

I believe we have (or had) JacobSavage at L-1. Why doesn't someone hammer?

[Gayle]

Mister Azelf, you do realize that we are in lylo, yes? And you realize that there are only five players, yes? And that of those five, two are scum? And that that means that if Gheb is town, both the scum can quickly add their votes to yours and end the game?

Also, was "I like the Gheb wagon, due to how quickly he swung from being fine with Lowell's lynch to not being fine with it once he turned out to be town." your only reason for suspecting Gheb?

[Gayle]

I could not think of anything witty to say in return, so I'll just use this image.

Vote: Gheb