Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[cruelty]

Oops, I'm here.

vote: SC[/quote] (RVS)


Weird little scenario right at the start of the game here. Not really much to say about it, tend to with Quintastic (31) in the event of a serious claim. We'll see how this develops though.

[cruelty]

Apparently I'm the designated village idiot this game.

[cruelty]

I am not going to post any content right now. I'm going to be V/LA for a week so if the mod wants to replace my slot, then that player can come in fresh. Please don't take this as any sort of gameplay, I do have things I'd like to say, and I will if I'm not replaced when I get back, this is purely out of consideration for my possible replacement.

Mod: I will be V/LA (basically no internet access) for about a week starting in about 4 hours. I'll be back long before deadline so I don't think you need to replace me, but I got no drama if you do.

(Apologies, I was the victim of a surprise summer holiday assault, wasn't aware this was happening)

[cruelty]

Ok I'm back, I'll read through the game over the next couple days and be good to go after that.

[cruelty]

Goddamn, TQO you need a good slap.


I've read the thread and rather than making a massive case I'll just throw out a few thoughts.

- AGar needs to post more. He's made 9 posts, and only one could really be considered meaningful. Little concerning, he's capable as mafia.

- TQO you're truely playing horribly. If you're town, there was zero need to roleclaim, it just lines up another target for scum. Not only that, but you're not "obvtown", you're obvnewb, obvidiot, but not town. Not even close. That said, the crazy drunken path you're stumbling down is, irritatingly, leading to town, following a circuitous route of sheer incompetence, so I can't vote for you in good conscience right now. Pick your game up.

- Jack.. don't get the early claim. Don't really buy it either, but I'm not going to read into it right now. I tend to think that it's a dangerous claim for scum to make (in my experience cops are generally exposed through investigation claims, counter claims or through their deaths long before lylo) so I'm willing to let you sit on it for now.

- Zang you're horribly inconsistent. Need to re-read and engage with you a little because at the moment I'm looking in on proceedings.


I hate day 1. I never get a good read day 1 so I'm a little hesitant to vote right now, especially in light of the fact that I haven't actually engaged anyone yet due to V/LA.

What I would like from you all though, is directions to issues you feel I should comment on. What information do you want from me, given that I'm in sort of a unique position (no personal bias due to no head to heads yet)?

[cruelty]

yayaya boring.

[cruelty]

My feeling towards TQO is sort of contradictory. I find him horribly scummy (unnecessary claims, constantly calling himself obvtown, AtEs, ridiculous logic) but I also get the impression he's new and foolish, so I'm sort of leaning towards giving him a gut pass if his game picks up.


I have an idea of who I want to vote for, but I want my question answered first. I'll rephrase it.

@everyone

: What do you think is the single most important event/debate/altercation to have taken place so far in the game?



Just humour me, it's important I understand priorities. I find it very hard to get good reads without being directly involved in the game.

[cruelty]

I think it's crazy to zoom in on one single event. Over time, the little things people say can be more telling at times than the larger debates.

So you're saying there isn't any one thing that's stuck out to you in the entire game? Not the Jack/Cyanide war, not TQO's random claim, nothing?

I'm not asking you to build a case around anything specific, but there absolutely has to be something that doesn't sit right with you, and I want to know what. Don't come at me spouting nonsense about the little things, that's completely and utterly irrelevant given what I want to know from you.

Why are you hesitant to answer me? What downside is there to answering the question?

[cruelty]

You didn't answer the question at all, you (quite neatly, to be fair) sidestepped it. I don't really like it when people do that. I think it's scummy. You're not going to convince me (or anyone else in the game, I sincerely hope) that there hasn't been a single moment yet which turned your head. Reading through your iso it seems like there definitely is, which in turn makes me wonder exactly why you're hesitant to talk about it. Regardless, your response has been noted.

I'm not overly concerned about the others thus far, although I will note that TBM did answer it, which invalidates your statement that you're alone in addressing the question.

On that subject..


@TBM, can you lay out in a single post quotes from TQO which reflect your assertion that he's lied? Or at least a little timeline that I can refer to? I've read through your iso and I know what you're talking about, but I think you need to lay it all out in a single post so as to consolidate the narrative. You've made a number of points against him, but at no point have you really fleshed out a decent case, it seems like a few single-line posts are the foundation of your case.

But know this, I am not a liar. And by the end of this game, whether I get lynched, night killed or if I somehow miraculously survive, you're going to have ALOT of egg on your face for calling me a liar.

You don't seem to understand, so I'll lay it out (hopefully) in a way you understand.

Let's look at this "I'm not a liar" quote. We'll create a hypothetical scenario with two TQOs, one who is telling the truth, and one who is lying.

TruthTQO says "I'm not lying" - he's not lying.
LiarTQO says "I'm not lying" - he's lying.

It's pretty simple, right?

We don't know - we CAN'T know - which TQO we're dealing with. Obviously scum lies, so you saying you're town, you're truthful, all that garbage is completely worthless because we don't know your alignment. My suggestion to you is to lay off this crap because it's just a distracting mess, and instead focus your talents, such as they are, on locating and destroying scum.

Also, just so you know, stating that two people who are voting you are scum is not scumhunting. You need to lay out a coherent, logical case against them. You so far haven't done so.

[cruelty]

Oh, most of what I was going to say has been gone over at length (Jack's softclaim), I didn't see much benefit to rehashing posts from six or seven pages ago.


With regards to your suspects, more than a few people have said that you're scummy but are willing to let it slide because there's a good chance you're new or stupid (or both). I'm not sure that citing TBM as your number one suspect because he thinks you're suspicious is good logic, and I'm also a little dubious about the lurking claim.

I'm not defending TBM here, I think he is questionable and it's a thread I intend to pursue at some point, but I think that you're more concerned with how he's relating to you than with how he's relating to town (your reasons for having him as your #1 don't, in my opinion, paint him in a scummy light) and this is a function of your play that you have to get past.

If he has truly read through the entire thread like I just have, he would have MORE than enough material to vote for somebody.

This is parroting something someone else (Paltry? can't be bothered looking) said. It stuck out because it's related to me, but looking back through your post it's quite obvious that you're not really thinking here, you're just recycling arguments other people have made. It's all good and well to get behind someone else's case (if it's a good case), but the vast majority of your original content has been fairly blatant and illogical OMGUS.

@TQO: Why is it so imperative that I cast a vote?

looking towards the past to try and develop a link to scum in the present.

I'm not entirely sure that you achieved this goal.

[cruelty]

And I wouldn't say it is imperative that you cast a vote. But the fact that you claim to read through the entire thread and yet have zero suspicions on who you believe to be scum, I'm calling bogus. I read through the entire thread and pointed out certain scummy behavior of ConfidAnon, PaltryExcuse, Jack, Zang, TheButtonMen & even a little bit of Vivi.

So rather I swing the question back to you, are you REALLY trying to tell me that after 13 pages of discussion you can't find ONE person worthy of your vote?

I thought you said you read the thread.

I have an idea of who I want to vote for, but I want my question answered first.

[cruelty]

Ah fuck it, I'm in.

vote: TBM

[cruelty]

Stagnation really. I think that TBM is a fairly viable suspect (having re-read him in iso), but more importantly, as a mislynch he's not a particularly damaging one. In fact, a TBM mislynch gives us a lot of information.

Paltry, I thought your post 8 (where you went in on Zang) was probably the moment your interest in the game picked up.

Where did he get his suspicion of CA from? Dunno, can't really be bothered looking right now. One or two examples of original thinking doesn't save him, though. If anything it makes him look worse (to me, anyway), given that if he did pull that suspicion from the recesses of his own mind, it proves he's capable of scumhunting reasonably logically and effectively, something generally lacking in his game thus far.

[cruelty]

Well, L1 isn't a lynch.

I gotta come clean though, I'm fairly apathetic about the game right now and I would like for something to happen that grabs my interest. I'm not 100% behind the TBM lynch (I suspect mainly because I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to him, something I'll rectify tomorrow), but I'm willing to look a little scummy and jump on the wagon, unless there's a viable alternative (which I don't really expect there to be).

[cruelty]

I'm not trying to distance myself.

I'm bandwagoning you because I figure there's a reasonable chance you're scum. I also think that in the event of a mislynch you've had enough shit thrown your way that it'll be highly illuminating for town.

[cruelty]

Out of curiosity, how many people find Cruelty suspicious?

I do.


I'll freely admit I'm just jumping on the bandwagon. I'll lynch Zang too if that wagon picks up steam.

I just wanna lynch someone, let's do this.

[cruelty]

Oh c'mon guys, let's have someone hammer and we can get into the fun part of the game.


I hate day 1 and I'm over it.

[cruelty]

@Cruelity:

You hate D1? Weird, D1 before PR's come into effect I find quite interesting, espcially the so called RVS. But aside from disagreements over the fun factor of D1, do you want to end D1 out of boredom with it or because you feel we got enough information out of the wagon already for D2?

Both.

I feel like at this point your lynch is inevitable, barring some sort of master-stroke case or a huge scumslip. I'm not sure what the hold up is.


I've always hated D1, my meta (if you could read it) would support this, I was in a game with SC where I drew a lot of heat for expressing the same sentiments.

[cruelty]

If it makes anyone feel more comfortable about the TBM lynch, I have no problems offering myself as today's lynch. Yeah that means another mislynch, but I don't mind taking one for the team

what the fuck man.

What is wrong with you? Why would you even say this?

[cruelty]

for being openly town.

Why can't you understand that you cannot be openly town?

[cruelty]

million dollar question.

I'd love to say TQO but he's too scummy to be for real.

I think scum is somewhere in vivi, SC, jack and agar. Need to re-read day 1 though.

[cruelty]

oops.

I put your name there instead of zang. Should read:

I think scum is somewhere in vivi, SC, jack and zang

[cruelty]

sorry, meant you. will elaborate more on all 4 later.

[cruelty]

I would like to lynch cruelty. Not feeling the urge to do anything else, like argue or defend myself or look for other suspects.

I think I'd like to lynch StrangerCoug.


I'll be more active over the next few days, been busy + sick so this has been a low priority. Apologies.

[cruelty]

Vote: Cruelty

For a different reason than I asked him about.

Which is?




Still struggling to get a handle on TQO. I don't think you've redeemed yourself at all (despite your claims to the contrary). I find there to be a curious contradiction in your posts - the newbish posts are VERY newbish, but there are also some posts where you're logical and on point. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't some sort of weird fake-newb gambit because I'm really have a hard time reconciling what almost seems to be two different personalities.

Dunno about the case on me. I've been a little inactive but I've explained why and it should change from now on. The TBM thing, shrug. Didn't really see him as a town asset and didn't feel like pushing another wagon. I was satisfied with him being lynched.

I have a bit more to say but people just arrived here so I'll be back later today/early tomorrow.

[cruelty]

Actually I'm not sure, I re-read his iso and can't point to a shining example. It's all gut I guess, which I am inclined to be wary of, because I pushed his lynch based on similar feelings in another game and he flipped town. Maybe he's just one of those people who give off a vibe that I pick up on, I'll think about it.

[cruelty]

lol?

What do you expect, that people are going to be supportive of arguments against them?

I don't think there's much of a case against me, it seems to be a bunch of circumstantial evidence that people are shoehorning to fit so I'm not really that motivated to defend it, or even to attack the people pushing it.


With regards to Zang I keep changing my mind. On the one hand, yeah he's scummy, but on the other hand his scumminess is barely believable. The problem is (much like TQO) that I don't really have a bad gut vibe from him - I can see his posts coming from newb town with a genuine desire to help and a naive propensity to find the scummiest way he possibly can to contribute.

Having said that, I'll get behind a Zang lynch if the majority want, I'm not going to push his wagon because I'm honestly not completely sold on his guilt (intellectually I'm aware the evidence is stacking up but my head has been wrong lately).


Recent things that interest me:

Jack's little rant in (his iso) 57. I know you've explained it, but I'm not entirely convinced that it wasn't some sort of weird AtE, it just reads strangely. Especially this part:

So don't take it as me trolling or "not helping". I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just being sincere.

This (the entire post) reads as some sort of attempt to justify what could (and, I suppose, is) considered to be fairly questionable behaviour. The fact that you have a point is somewhat irrelevant in my opinion - ultimately I get the feeling that you're not that concerned about your actual argument as much as you are using that line of reasoning to elude your attackers.


Zhero - you've basically flown under the radar this entire game. I don't really have any issue with anything you've said, but I do note that you're not hugely involved in the game. Possibly a little hypocritical to mention but nonetheless true.


Vivi, as others have said has been next to useless (8 posts, no real info whatsoever). The more I re-read your posts the less I like you, I note specifically your attack on the TBM wagon (Vivi iso 7) and the convenient mini-assault on Zang (iso posts 4-8). The lack of posting makes a read difficult but I get a bad gut vibe, so

vote: Vivi

.

[cruelty]

And what point are you trying to make exactly?

What information do we get from a TBM lynch? Well we now know that everything he said and did was pro-town intentioned, we know that scum was likely on his wagon and we know scum probably pushed the mislynch. This is generally stuff that can be referred to when making a case, something that hasn't really happened today and so hasn't come into play. It will, I'm sure.

For those curious, I was voting Vivi in order to try to provoke some activity out of her, which seems to have worked for now, so

unvote, vote jack

. I think that ties 3 people at three votes.

Yeah, reading him in iso I can see what you mean. I kinda feel like there's often the promise of more info, and then not much follow-up.

You're right, but this isn't actually game related except in the fact that I've been busy + disillusioned/bored with mafia lately. Seem to have gotten a second wind so this should change from now on.


To explain my 'most important moment of the game' question, it was less about getting actual answers and more about seeing reactions to it. As a general rule I've found that scum tend to argue against answering questions like that, presumably in the interest of giving nothing away. It wasn't something hugely important at that stage of the game, but responses were noted and will be referred back to if appropriate.

[cruelty]

jesus christ

[cruelty]

ok

unvote, vote zang

[cruelty]

yep, stagnation.

[cruelty]

That's a surprise, zang. Thought we were bros.

I think scum is somewhere in vivi, SC[oug], jack and zang

I have no issues lynching any of you. I shifted my vote in the interest of stimulating some conversation. I think the loss of TQO has demoralised the town somewhat so if I have to incur a little suspicion in order to kickstart the game again then I'll take the hit.

[cruelty]

i'm here.

i'm pretty content with my vote at the moment, i'm interested in leafsnail's impending reply to SCoug. don't have much to say to you (you find me scummy, how surprising), can't really defend vague accusations.

[cruelty]

I don't recall saying much about gut reads (other than declaring my own), but I'll answer anyway.

I said this a few posts ago:

I don't think there's much of a case against me, it seems to be a bunch of circumstantial evidence that people are shoehorning to fit so I'm not really that motivated to defend it, or even to attack the people pushing it.

Still feel this way. As far as I can tell the case is based mainly on my TBM vote, everything else is just mundane junk that's less a product of my seeming scummy and more me being lazy.

So what do I think of the accusations? I'm not that impressed, I'm not motivated to defend myself. If you call them gut reads? Doesn't really make a difference.

What I do think though, is that there's definitely scum on my wagon. If zang is scum then I highly doubt they're both (assuming 3) bussing him already, therefore my belief in zangscum (about 75%) + my knowledge of my own innocence leads me to the inevitable and logical conclusion that scum is currently pushing my lynch. Zang and probably Jack.

Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

I detest voting analysis. Especially ones like this, I genuinely don't understand why who is on the wagon matters. It just seems like a really contrived reason to avoid voting.

[cruelty]

I didn't.

I said I don't like voting analysis - I don't. If I think it's relevant then it's a viable tool, but it's not something I'll use as a foundation for a vote (or as a reason to not vote).

Am I to therefore take it that you detest your own assertion that there's scum on your wagon?

Nope. I think it's a valid point. Wouldn't make a case based on it though.


I gotta be careful though. I can understand the confusion so I'll explain a little bit more.

I think that voting analysis - carefully poring over voting history, looking at who's on wagons etc, and letting what you find influence your decision making is ridiculous. In every game I play there's always numerous examples of town making strange votes, being on wagons they have no real business being on, avoiding scum lynches etc, and I really, really don't put much stock in people being able to use this information successfully.

I think it's has its place, but the only time I'll ever look closely at votes as some sort of genuine factual information is a flip. This is where you're seeing a 'contradiction' - I'm positive there was scum on the TBM wagon; it's a logical conclusion rather than some halfbaked idea.

I detest it being used as a reason to do (or to not do) something, and I detest people making a big deal about it because ultimately I think that it's a much greyer area than people make out. The only time we deal with facts in this game is when we see a flip (PRs and scum do too but for the most part that info is limited to a select few and can't be considered) so therefore the only time voting analysis is a valid tool (imo) is when looking at the end of day wagon.


Incidentally vivi you need to step up your game. You're not involved, you're basically repeating points others have made (the above is a good example, you're just rewording Tony) and you're posting about once every 3 days. I suspect you're probably newbscum trying to avoid making errors, but what you're doing is very, very close to active lurking.

[cruelty]

Jazzmyn replaced in and voted cruelty when she could have voted zang. That makes her town in my eyes.

lol.


I just had minor surgery so really I'm just popping in to say I'm still around, but the above elicited a little giggle.

[cruelty]

postulating a scenario like that is a great way for scum to deflect attention/bus.

[cruelty]

My thoughts? I'm tripping a little on some sweet post-op drugs so the following may be a little chaotic.

I think it's pretty likely that Vivi is scum, which I think also implicates Jazzmyn (IF vivi is scum then post 641 reads like a weak attempt to bus).

Then I think that if Jazzmyn and Vivi are scum, Jack is the likely third (636). I find it interesting that Jazzmyn and I actually have fairly similar reads on Jack and Vivi (630), which makes me wonder about the implications of Jazz-town. I have a difficulty with her (which harks back to an earlier game) in that her posts towards/regarding me seem to convey a personal dislike (dunno if it's true) which in turn makes me see her as scummy. It's quite hard to get a read whilst ignoring that, so I'm not confident I can get an accurate read of her.


Then there's also the vivi-conundrum. We have a lack of posts, and the few we do see are scummy (in my eyes), but I'm not sure whether to chalk this up to being new or being scum. If I'm wrong about her then I can't follow a logical trail to Jazzmyn (although I find Jack independently scummy).

Sorry if this is a little nonsensical, I feel like my thoughts are coming in waves and I'm scrambling to type everything before the next one breaks. It's both deeply profound and deeply unsettling.

[cruelty]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

[cruelty]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

Coming from the guy who pushed one townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "what the ****, I'm in" and who pushed a second townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "stagnation", you'll have to forgive me if I find your post above rather lacking.

Regards,
Jazz

lol.

You brought up the fact that we're possibly/probably in lylo.

Your above quote implies disagreement with me. That is, you're advocating a quick lynch here in a situation you acknowledge is probably lylo.


Regardless of my past actions, there is absolutely no need to hurry if we're in lylo. It's pretty clear that one of Jack/Jazzmyn are scum (game is still going), if not both (I'm innocent).

[cruelty]

I guess that depends on her alignment.

[cruelty]

Cruelty has been at L-2 for over 72 hours now. Initially, I was cautious because I was scared of scum pushing the vote on cruelty and lynching him fast. As more time passed and noone tried to lynch him, it became more and more likely for him to be scum. I am now confident enough to place my vote.

Vote: Cruelty

flawed logic.

It became equally likely that I was scum OR the two on my wagon are scum.

Assuming that all players in-game are active(ish) the only possible conclusion is that both Jack and Jazzmyn are scum - if one was town then scum would have hammered by now, and as I'm innocent (vt claim btw) I know the stagnation isn't on my end.

Therefore

vote Jack

I suspect it doesn't really matter who I vote because if Vivi isn't scum then it'll be game over by the time I wake up.

[cruelty]

ironically of the three scumreads i had, i voted for the only incorrect one.


sry town, i got really disillusioned with this game, which i guess is pretty obvious.

[cruelty]

i got really, really disillusioned with this game. i could have contributed more, sorry, but modkill + replacement + tqo + zang = enough.

i -knew- vivi was scum, i was 90% sure on jazz about about 80% on jack, but i sort of discredited myself by posting under the influence - lol @ my 645, i have no idea what i was thinking about, i was so spaced out it i don't really remember 2-3 entire days from around that time.