Mini 917 -- Precision Mafia (Game Over)

[Seacore]

Does the commander know the bonus? Because if they don't, and I skimmed the rules to check, we could really fuck this up by not preparing a baseline.

The worst and probably most likely outcome of the three burners, is that there is 2 town and 1 scum. And that may not be readily obvious, if the commander doesn't know whether he has a +3 or a +8

That's my only concern, otherwise I'd be cool with burning from day 1

[Iecerint]

I don't know whether they do or not. I am assuming that they do, because I think it would be confusing to receive a PM that indicates "you give your team extra CP" without a numerical designation.

Even if they do not, we could account for that by having a smaller pool of players make comparatively large burns today. That would make the presence of a non-town burner relatively unambiguous. Hell, we could even just have 1 player do it to an absurd degree. That would make for an extra cop shot at relatively little risk (i.e. really absurd Commander bonuses could still mess this up).

[Seacore]

How would it be that confusing, you managed to convey the message in 6 words?

But I definitely agree with the second half of your statement.

Lets have 2 burners today, each burning 7.

And from Day 2 on, go back to the plan.

[Iecerint]

It's relatively straightforward now that we're on page 9, but the whole CP concept would have been shakier at the pre-game stage, and especially without other players to bounce ideas off of. Had I made this set-up, I would have kept it as simple as possible to minimize the number of questions I would need to field.

But yeah, it's possible that they don't know. Another potential confound is a second town Commander, come to think of it.

[Seacore]

The plan

1) We kill fifi today.
2) We select two players to burn through 7 points (probably two people who have already voted for fifi) their 7th point will end with a vote on Fifi.
3) Everybody with a PR decides to either use it every night (best option) or never use it (may be only safe option for some PRs)
4) The commander observes whether they can determine if either of the burners is scum, and otherwise gathers a kind of baseline from the final number of points remaining.
5) An opportunity for Cops to identify a guilty player is given.
6) Commanders announce their results unless they were unable to determine anything about the burners.
7) We discuss who is to be lynched in the usual way.
8) We nominate three people to burn 4 points randomly and use a 5th to lynch the decided person
9) Night 2 progresses mostly as Night 1 did
10) Day 3, we give the Cops another chance before the commanders declare their results
11) Rinse and repeat, hopefully with a Doc protecting the Commander.

Vote

Yay

or

Nay

or point out your particular concenrs

[Seacore]

Is there anything to suggest a second town commander? I never even considered that possibility while reading the rules.

And it concerns me that someone can fake claim town commander. If we get two commanders giving us different results, we put everything on hold and kill them til we find scum.

[popsofctown]

The wording makes it possible, Seacore.

I like two 6's today 2 6's tomorrow better.

[Seacore]

Any distinct problem with the 3 people burning 5 tomorrow?

[Fate]

I personally think this plan is way over my head. I also see that, although it showed 1 point in the examples, R_C never really is explicit that night actions all use one point. He says "every action in the game requires commander points" so it isn't really predictable.

Night actions/roles aside, I think the basic premise works well enough: If scum burns 6 points the discrepancy will be shown to the commander.

I also think it is better to do two people a day, instead of multiple later after the as the CP discrepancy will be larger to that night actions don't mess with is as much. That's besides the fact that: "Oh, one of the 3 people yesterday wasn't town as the CP's don't add up."

"Well it isn't me."
"Isn't me"
"Isn't me either..."

"Oh."

Commander's only see the total, so narrowing it down to two suspects is much better imo.

Yay!

[AlmasterGM]

The lack of J.R in this thread is really beginning to irk me.

[Cobalt]

The lack of J.R in this thread is really beginning to irk me.

who is J. R.?

[Seacore]

Mr Tolkein? But he dead!

[Seacore]

Fate

a) The mod has explicitly said that actions require

a

point, not points.

b) In a 12 player game, being able to find a scum in a group of three, is a significant advantage. And it's also the worst possible outcome of the potential outcomes with three burners.

[popsofctown]

Are you skimming fate? I bolded, italicized, and underlined the word "a" earlier.

[Iecerint]

Working from the VCmafia-cipher hypothesis, 1 town Commander is the most plausible, but there could potentially be a 2nd Commander given the flavor. I could also imagine the Mod including a second Commander to increase total town CP (consistent with his pre-game talk) and/or to reduce risk of CP loss to town (as lucky loss of the one Commander would totally warp the intended CP balance in scum's favor, which may play against the intended tone of the game).

That is pure speculation, but it was the basis of my suggestion. I still think trying to do something with the spare CP is a good plan.

I have no problems with the newest version of the plan, really.

[popsofctown]

We have a very good chance of getting 1 scum and 2 towns tomorrow if we do three, which is pretty useless. I'd rather narrow it down to one of two people is scum. Really, we can't spend 2 lynches getting two a third in a group of players that is scum. We can afford to lynch a townie. (and we would have to, scum wouldn't NK him)

[Iecerint]

We're doing 1-2 players today either way. We need to allow whoever we choose to waste enough points such that the Commanders will be certain they aren't just imagining a disparity due to hypothetically not knowing how many extra CP they produce, not to mention the added spooky effects of other PRs.

[Seacore]

As I've mentioned before, I'm happy for one of the burners to be me, I seem to have elicited more suspicion than most other players. Any other nominations? Or cases against me being one of the burners?

[popsofctown]

Just as an aside, for lurkerskimmers,

voting is not cool right now

. The town is figuring things out, hammering them down.


Anyway,

Seacore's plan as written doesn't establish a frame of reference. I think maybe he just wasn't thinking when he wrote it up.

You need to establish a frame or reference. Otherwise, we don't know whether the 2 CP in the pool from burning night 1 is from both the players being town, or us having tons of power roles and a +1 commander and only one being town, or [infinite possibilities]. Tonight we burn no points, tomorrow we burn 14. We need a night of no points burned so we can know what the pool looks like when no one is burning. Then it can be compared to what it looks like when someone is burning.

Were you planning on guessing at how much CP we have? It's impossible, commanders give us pretty much random amounts of cp, and we have a random amount of power roles.

So we have to have no burning today, day 1. Then we can burn 1, two, 3, X players tomorrow and get useful info.

[popsofctown]

As I've mentioned before, I'm happy for one of the burners to be me, I seem to have elicited more suspicion than most other players. Any other nominations? Or cases against me being one of the burners?

As much as I enjoy discussing theory with you Seacore, this is nakedscum. "Investigate me" does not fulfill the town win condition or the scum win condition. As scum, you're getting yourself investigated, which will lead to your death. As town, you're snatching an investigation away from a potentially guilty player to one you know will not give a helpful guilty flip to the town.


This action is totally and utterly analagous to fifi's page one vote: both scum and town are stupid to do the action (lolwastevotes/selfinvestigate), but it is conceivable as an unwise scum ploy to cast off suspicion by committing the action so as to show you can "man up and handle" the harsher drawbacks scum get than town. But it's unwise because the action isn't one a townie would commit in pursuit of his win condition. You should not be happy to be the one investigated. You're just saying that because you realized scum would not be happy being investigated and automatically negated that before thinking like a townie and realizing you wouldn't want to be investigated.


I can see Seacore stomaching being the target, but actually rushing to the mic to nominate himself is ridiculous.


The only reason I don't want him lynched today is I'd rather have the breathing room for our evil experiments, and I don't want townie F1F1 voters to have to use extra votes to get him lynched. So I'll leave him around for now. Obligatory omgosh lining up lynches.

[Seacore]

I was arguing for a baseline night, but others suggested we didn't need one. I figured I was missing something (like I was with your original plan yesterday) so I just spelled out their thoughts in my 'plan' and was seeking comment.

Ugh, I'm too busy right now to pull my plan apart and fix it. does somebody else want to do it?

[Seacore]

Also, in response to your response of my self nomination. It's not dumb.

I'm town. Apart from fifi, however, I seem to be the most suspected. Some town scum hunters are wasting their time building a case against me. This plan will prevent town from wasting a lynch on me, which is something I'd prefer.

[popsofctown]

1. Lynch fifi by simple majority. However, everyone who didn't vote for Fifi needs to burn 1 first. (the reason is that otherwise, we will have to use different players to execute tomorrow's lynch. Since those players are of unconfirmed alignment, it creates variance. Each player votes once each day is more constant.
2. Multishot night actions fire or don't fire. They will repeat this choice every single night.
3. Discrete shot actions fire if they feel it is advantageous. Sucky ones like one shot hider needn't even do stuff ever, ftr. I don't think that'd happen though
4. Scum commander sees X left in the pool. He expects x- missing cp from the guy that go shot the next night.
5. No votes are used as a lynch and two investigations are democratically elected.
6. All players burn one if they won't be executing the lynch. Investigated players burn an additional 5. The player is lynched.
7. The commander sees x-deadman's CP that night, but sees five less if an investigee was town, and ten less if both were town.
8. If the commander doesn't claim that morning, investigees are presumed innocent. (even if the commander dies down the line).

If even one is scum, commander claims his results and the two players are lynched until scum is found.

[Seacore]

Yay

[Cruciare]

Sorry for my absence, I've been quite busy recently and will hopefully catch up and post later tonight.